“Men are to blame for women’s behavior. The Feminine Imperative only has as much power as men have allowed it to have. Hypergamy (open or otherwise) wouldn’t be the unrestrained social juggernaut it’s become without men’s complicity or accomplice.”
This quote is a go-to rationalization I read a lot from women just coming to terms with their first taste of the Red Pill. Unfortunately it’s also become a common refrain among certain sets in the manosphere; this rationale is usually particular to the moral absolutist strains of the manosphere.
When I read it from women it’s kind of ironic considering it usually comes from women who share in the same moral absolutism, who were “so different when they were in college”, but they’ve had their Epiphany and “got right with God.” They often cling to the Strong Independent® identity for themselves, but turn over a rock and show them the visceral, observable, ugly truth of unfettered Hypergamy and then, then it’s men’s partial or total responsibility for fostering women’s conditions.
It becomes men’s fault for not having the fortitude and presence of mind to correct them when they needed it – never mind the lifetime of Blue Pill conditioning that taught them judging women made them misogynistic assholes. I understand axiom that men and women get the men and women they deserve, but I wanted to explore this blame game dynamic a bit more.
From Validation Hunting & The Jenny Bahn Epiphany:
The Feminine Imperative relies on memes and conventions which shift the ownership of women’s personal liabilities for their sexual strategy to men.
When men are blamed for the negative consequences of women’s sexual strategy it helps to blunt the painful truths that Jenny Bahn is (to her credit) honestly confronting in her article at 30 years old and the SMV balance shifts towards enabling men’s capacity to effect their own sexual strategy.
As I was writing the Adaptations series it occurred to me that men on the ends of both the Alpha and Beta spectrum adapt their own sexual strategies in accord with the sexual marketplace and how that environment dictates the approach to what seems the most efficient.
As I stated in the last post, Hypergamy is nothing if not pragmatic, and efficient. However, men’s adapting to the “market” dictates of Hypergamy has to be equally efficient if that guy is to fulfill his own sexual imperative. Pragmatism doesn’t have time for how things should be. You make the best play with what’s in front of you.
Just to illustrate, for about 25 years or so, popular culture strongly pointed men towards a sexual strategy that could be defined as Beta Game. Play nice, respect a woman by default, be supportive of her self-image and ambitions to the sacrifice of your own, don’t judge her and do your utmost to identify with the feminine, was the call to action that, deductively, should make a man more attractive to a woman.
Furthermore, the intrasexual combat amongst men for sexual qualification was (at least ostensibly) focused on out-supporting, out-sympathizing, out-emoting and out-identifying with the feminine more so than other men. To set oneself apart from “other guys” the seemingly most strategic tact was to accept what women said they wanted from men. To pragmatically effect this men gladly joined the chorus of ridiculing conventional masculinity; denouncing and resisting the very element that would in fact have set them apart from the nebulous “other guys“.
So while this is an illustration of men’s deductive pragmatism in their adapting to the SMP, it’s also an illustration of how that adaptation can work against men’s best interests. Between the 80s, 90s and into the early 2000s this adaptation involved men following women’s lead to systematically turn conventional, positive masculinity into ridiculous or gay-associations of “macho-ness”. Later, defining the very idea of masculinity would progress from ambiguousness to women being the sole authority of what masculinity should mean to a man.
Women and Moral Agency
For as long as I’ve read and commented on Christo-Manosphere blogs a common thread has cropped up again and again; the debate as to whether women have the same moral agency or the same accountability for it as men. I’ve always found it fascinating because for all my dealing in cold harsh observable facts I’ve never paused to consider that women might have some excusable reason for their ethically challenged behavior. In my own estimate Hypergamy isn’t inherently bad or good – it just depends on whether you find yourself on the sharp end of it.
My point here isn’t to reheat that debate, but rather to see how it feeds into the rationale that men are in some way responsible for what contemporary women have become, and how they’ll progress if men don’t assume some responsibility for women’s behaviors.
Hypergamy is pragmatic, but it’s also inherently duplicitous. It’s unjust and unforgivable to a guy who doesn’t measure up to his burden of performance. When you consider the War Brides dynamic it’s downright reprehensible, but we have to also consider the pragmatism in that dynamic. From a male perspective we want to apply masculine concepts of honor and justice to women’s action – and in the past there was a high price to pay for infractions of it – but are we presuming our concept of justice is one that’s universally common to that of women?
Much in the same way we were Blue Pill conditioned to presume that our idealistic concept of love was mutually shared by women I would propose that men’s concepts of justice, honor, and (from an intrasexual perspective) respect are dissimilar from those of women.
For women, whatever actions serve Hypergamy are justifiable actions.
All that needs to be sorted out is reconciling those action with the concept of justice held by men. In the intersexual arena, what best serves men’s imperatives is justice. Up until the sexual revolution the balance between the sexes’ concepts of justice was mitigated by mutual compromise – each had something to lose and something to gain by considering the other sex’s imperatives.
For roughly the past 70 years this balance between the two concepts has listed heavily to the feminine. Our age has been defined by women’s unilateral and ubiquitous control of Hypergamy, and as such it is women’s sexual imperatives that is biologically and sociologically setting the course for future generations.
Along with that unprecedented control comes the prioritizing of women’s concept of justice above that of men’s. We can see this evidenced in every law, social convention or social justice movement that entitles women to rights and privileges that free them of any accountability for the negative consequence their Hypergamously based behavior would hold them to in a concept of justice that men would have.
I would also argue that women’s inherent solipsism reinforces this separation of concepts of justice between the sexes.
Rivelino had a good take on this on Twitter:
1 The woman is always the victim
2 Nothing is her fault
3 She is not responsible for her actions
4 A man is to blame
To which I’ll add a 5th: Any fault is always a ‘strength’.
The problem I see in assigning the blame of women’s behavior to men’s lack of control is that, presently, men have no real control nor does men’s concept of justice align with that of women. There’s a manosphere idiom that says women are the gatekeepers of sex while men are the gatekeepers of commitment. I’m not sure I completely agree with that.
That’s not to be defeatist, or an endorsement of a MGTOW course of action, but it is to say that if a man has neither the sex appeal to be a short term sexual prospect nor the provisioning appeal to be a long term investment, women feel entirely justified in acting in the best interests of Hypergamy and controlling his capacity for commitment as well.
And yes, that’s pretty fucked up if you, again, find yourself on the sharp end of it. Men’s adapting to the intersexual conditions set by women isn’t some deterministic prospect, but the idea that the mass majority of men would be responsible for the state women find themselves in is ludicrous. There will always be men willing to accept the sexual dictates of women because it serves their breeding imperatives. It’s good for him personally and it’s good for the species.
There will never be some global Lysistrata where men organize in solidarity, promising not to fuck another woman until they comply with demands that would place the Masculine Imperative above that of the feminine’s. Our own biology guarantees it.
Personal Responsibility
On a final note here, whenever I delve into the ethical implications of Red Pill awareness I invariably run into the personal responsibility equation. I do my best to make as coldly rational an observation of dynamics I see and allow my readers to make their own judgements. However, those observation are never intended to excuse the behaviors men and women find themselves prone to acting out.
There is always a want on the part of either sex to see their concept of justice enacted on those who would act against it. Thus you get honor killing in the Muslim world, and you have men’s access to the DNA testing of children they suspect aren’t their own denied in the “best interest of the child.”
So are men to blame for the conditions they find their women in? Are we our sisters’ keepers, hamstrung by our own culpability to actually help them be better women? Or do they bear the responsibility to conform to our perspective of justice and police the worst impulses of a Hypergamy most are only peripherally aware of?
Self validation with the facts of the world we live in.
Thanks for helping me calm my internal struggle with the red pill.
[…] By Rollo Tomassi […]
The manosphere needs to keep the self-flagellating in check. Men are not responsible for women’s behavior, especially in today’s female dominated political climate. For a man to assume that he is responsible for women’s unchecked hypergamy is to ignore the facts. The average man lives in a climate of dwindling economic opportunities for men, higher incarceration rates, unmitigated divorce rape, and now anti-manspreading laws! A 50th percentile man does not have the clout to check a woman’s impulses. Even alpha males can be harmed by a woman’s actions. Look at the cases of Kobe Bryant, Tiger Woods, George Soros (google… Read more »
“the Alpha and Beta spectrum adapt their own sexual strategies in accord with the sexual marketplace and how that environment dictates the approach to what seems the most efficient.” “It’s unjust and unforgivable to a guy who doesn’t measure up to his burden of performance.” https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ExFn7uxN6Lk “and as such it is women’s sexual imperatives that is biologically and sociologically setting the course for future generations.” video/105905096 “women feel entirely justified in acting in the best interests of Hypergamy and controlling his capacity for commitment as well.” “Neo: Are there other programs like you? The Oracle: Oh, well, not like me.… Read more »
Maybe it’s my own failure of imagination, but I don’t see how a society based on unrestrained hypergamy is even feasible. Putting questions of justice and fairness aside, hypergamy is suited to a hunter gatherer, pre-private property social order. I don’t see how it could possibly dominate modern societies without destroying them. The average guy has very little sexual marketplace value. He’s sexually invisible by default, and this is why so many of them go the beta provider route, because what the hell else are they going to do? It’s their only means of conforming to what appear to be… Read more »
Easy, i will be a matriarchy – which western society is well on its way to.
@Divided Line
We already have societies with unrestrained hypergamy in existence. Go to any ghetto in Baltimore, St. Louis and L.A. to witness the results. Social pressure is needed to keep civilization running. Both genders need to sacrifice and do their equal share. Unfortunately, in contemporary America, one gender has decided that everyone is equal but some are more equal than others.
These communities largely run as matriarchies.
Men aren’t responsible for women’s hypergamy, their fathers are.
@stationarity
You’re absolving women of any responsibility and transferring all of it onto the shoulders of a man. And said man answers to his wife in most cases. So women are responsible for hypergamy as well.
@Tom is right, the ghettoes of major American cities are an excellent example of the results of unrestrained hypergamy in action. They are female-dominated, males are peripheral and often absent, and females compete to mate with the few alphas around, who are usually hardened criminals likely to be killed or go back to prison at any time. Females happily get pregnant by these alphas, and raise the kids alone or with help from older female relatives, with the kids usually growing up to repeat the cycle. Incidentally, these neighborhoods are usually high-crime, with the few males around murdering each other… Read more »
thank you for the well written article
So many in the sphere keep looking for ‘justice/fairness’ in the realm of sexual politics. It’s a fool’s quest, because such a thing doesn’t exist. Hypergamy is the ‘law of the jungle’ at the beating heart of everything in this arena. Alpha gets the first and best choice and beta lurks at the edge of the clearing and takes the leavings after the alpha is sated. We humans have always been hardwired this way, and even harshly imposed social strictures can—at best—slightly mitigate these behaviors. But they can never eradicate the innate instincts. Don’t wish the game was easier—wish you… Read more »
P.S. What I might posit is that women aren’t getting worse, they’re getting better in a purely evolutionary sense. One that primarily benefits women. And the majority of men in the western world are helping to facilitate it. Maybe women ARE stronger than us, after all.
Food for thought.
@TheDiplomat You are pedestalizing women. If you think lobbying for lowered standards and affirmative action is an evolutionary leap, then you have a poor understanding of biology. All these handouts to women have a price and American society as a whole will pay for it in the form of higher deficits, lowered competitiveness and/or a lowered standard of living. Civilization is an attempt to impose some justice on the world through constraints all for the greater good. It will never be entirely fair and I accept that. It is the gross unfairness that troubles me. What is tragic is how… Read more »
One more example of Alpha vulnerability. Jian Ghomeshi. Google him. He was living the 50 shades of gray lifestyle until one of his plates experienced regret after a night of rough sex. Jian Ghomeshi was a demigod in Canada. Still wasn’t enough to keep him out of jail.
@Tom
If the game is rigged we cheat. We force them to play our games and in the field of battle of our choosing instead.
Game is important but reshaping society’s structure is important as well. Two of the greatest victories against radical feminism were #redditrevolt and #gamergate. They were massive operations which coordinated thousands of people. Gamergate was almost a year long campaign. Nobody had ever damaged Gawker like Gamergate. And who organized gamergate? Beta males, gays, gamers, and one plucky disabled coder. Sure alpha males like Cernovich helped but ultimately it was a large mass of people rising up and speaking in unison. We can learn from that victory. One last thing. It’s not as if women aren’t aware of game, at least… Read more »
A very interesting question. My exwife (when in the course of our divorce) readily admitted that she would have been a bitch if I’d denied her desires, but said she would have respected me more if I had. Ultimately, she was admitting that she tested me, and I failed the test. For my part, I tried all kinds of strategies, and it seemed that when I was cold and distant, she treated me better. But I didn’t WANT to be cold and distant. It was very unsatisfying for me. Ultimately, I believe that we need to have more realistic expectations… Read more »
@scott h truly fantastic post. You hit the nail on the head time and time again.
And most men do not want to be cold and distant. How then is a LTR worthwhile (especially if without kids) if we cannot be warm/romantic with them? The way I see it is, that men love women for their looks AND personality, but they push us away for loving the latter, and the former will disappear rather quickly.
@Scott You had me until the last part. I doubt very few men here are waiting for a woman to make them complete. Most men here are college educated professionals or skilled tradesmen. Many have 6 figure incomes, no debt, decent physique, confidence etc..etc.. The point I’m making is that speaking to a woman on the street may land you in jail. Having sex with a woman may be considered rape until you can prove otherwise. These are real changes in society transpiring today. Men need to rally together and advocate for themselves politically or else they’ll fail the most… Read more »
What do you mean by “controlling his capacity for commitment”? Could you give an example?
Just reading the headline created this response:
“You may wear the white hat being the sister-keeper but your Keeper will be wearing a black robe.
Blue+black trumps white all day long.
Game over
OP: So are men to blame for the conditions they find their women in? Are we our sisters’ keepers, hamstrung by our own culpability to actually help them be better women? Or do they bear the responsibility to conform to our perspective of justice and police the worst impulses… I was at a bar with a couple buddies on Sunday night. The Florida State QB episode where he retaliated to a punch from a girl with a punch. The two men I was with and three others that chimed in all said that you never hit a girl. I disagreed… Read more »
The longer I live, the more I realize that women are really half-children. They cannot deal with abstract thought and personalize everything. It is frustrating to even have a conversation with them as no matter what you say, they apply it to themselves. They shouldn’t vote or be on juries as they are ruled by emotions rather than logic.
When it comes to women, times have changed because of two words – social media. Women have this outrageously huge outlet for attention-whoring that was not available to them a dozen years ago. They can get a ton of “you go girl” reinforcement on Facebook compared to what they could get in real life away from their idiot phones. When you combine this with their moral fluidity, and their knack for appearing adult-like while somehow never taking responsibility for their actions…well, I have no idea how you put this genie back in the bottle. I just can’t picture your average… Read more »
The sharp end of hypergamy is that if you’re not useful or hot, then you can be a (divorce/tax) slave to labor anonymously for the people who matter, or just die.
“Women are wonderful.”
Forget the ‘moral’-angle for a second.
Responsibility requires power.
I may be responsible for lifting up a piece of rock – Maybe I did, maybe I didn’t but if I don’t have the power, the might to do so then I may be held accountable by some liars but in reality I couldn’t have done it.
Responsibility has been connected to an accountability in moral codes.
Now this is being inverted – Man is accountable, woman is not by current morality thus inverted causality says he must be responsible for it.
“For my part, I tried all kinds of strategies, and it seemed that when I was cold and distant, she treated me better. But I didn’t WANT to be cold and distant. It was very unsatisfying for me.”
One of the tragedies of beta. Your emotional satisfaction in a relationship is counterproductive and, from the viewpoint that matters (hers), uninteresting.
(NB: Women love men who kill men too, whatever the feelings of the men involved may be.)
The more I think about it, the more I believe we are becoming a matriarchy, folks. This is an ineluctable consequence of women not needing us for daily survival and them having the power of sexual selection. Most people don’t seem to know that western civilization only stopped having mass famines 150 years ago – the kind of prosperity and security open to a woman without a man as a provider/protector is simply unprecedented. Why would women not change their sexual behavior as a result? Why would they spend a life with one man? And of course, a matriarchy would… Read more »
It’s easy. Default setting in humanity is hypergamy and the Feminine Imperative because eggs are more valuable than sperm. Biological instincts and attitudes are programmed to favor the Feminine Imperative, both for men and women. The only way to stop that is having a patriarchal religion (Churchianity does not qualify in this category). When people are more focused on their personal happiness or pleasure, they always end up giving concessions to the Feminine Imperative (because it is the default setting) until getting to the mess we are now in. But, if you are more focused on serving God, you are… Read more »
I think there is a tendency among men to mistake honor and justice with mating strategies.
Women should be held accountable in the same manner a man should if they murder another person (they currently are not).
But they should not be held to the same standard that we hold men to when it comes to sexual strategies. They are wired differently and thus will do different things.
“I don’t like it. It is incompatible with the previous social order. I think the future looks like MGTOW for Betas, pussy galore for Alphas, and the death of traditional masculinity and femininity. We are already a long way towards that state. And there is no cure. Remember, we humans are merely carriers for our genes – in the end, they are in charge, not us. We just adapt to the ecology and pursue what our genes tell us to. We are all “Dancing Monkeys”.” There you go again Scribbler. Once again showing you are not through to the last… Read more »
Interesting post and more interesting comments. A common thread (among commenters here at least) is to take one of Rollo’s posts and filter that new knowledge through the commenters experience personal filter (hey, where else have we heard that before?) Here is where we get all the machinations and twisting and turning both away and towards his ideas (which I agree with almost completely BTW) in an attempt for the ego identity to retain relevance and a foothold in a crumbling worldview. I totally get it guys but you gotta get past this step in your personal growth PRONTO, it’s… Read more »
Tilikum. Thanks for saying what I was trying to say in a much more efficient way.
34 y/o and this is the first comment I’ve ever made in the manosphere. I found the red pill about two months ago after allowing a girl to move in with me and then becoming frustrated with her changes in behavior. This was my first attempt at an LTR since divorcing a woman who had cheated. I kicked her out within a couple of weeks after taking the pill, doing tons of reading, and observing the harsh new reality with my brand new eyes. The Iron Rule was right and I knew it within moments of reading that particular article… Read more »
@ Tilikum From a personal perspective, it’s either buy in or opt out. The only two rational options are to make your best attempt to go alpha, if you’re capable, or to say “to hell with it” and go MGTOW, again, if you’re able. Beta provider game is dead, even if somebody can successfully pull it off. In the current climate, one wonders why you would even want to. I think Rollo’s right about the impossibility of a mass reverse Lysistrata. Going MGTOW and actually being happy that way might be just as challenging as trying to remake yourself to… Read more »
@ Divided Line
“I think it’s just as unrealistic to think that the average guy is going to be able to sufficiently alpha-up in response to the emerging sexual marketplace.”
I agree wholeheartedly BUT….I figure if you made it here, and want it, then that’s 90% of the battle. The rest is just letting go and and buy in to the message that is observationally true and reproducible.
Sample: I can PROVE that “the game” is real and beatable, so if you want what i have, you got to do what I do. So quit yammering!
@Tilikum “Hint: executive level guys and men with many options don’t endlessly back and forth on things that simply require a buy-in or opt-out.”
How about a third option. Think globally, act locally. Accepting current sexual and legal reality and acting accordingly does not mean you have to stop agitating for change. At least changes in the legal landscape. Hypergamy is what it is.
Are we to blame? Indirectly I suppose. I believe that our current state of hypergamy is just a side effect of women’s suffrage. Of course they are going to advocate for the optimization of the feminine imperative. That’s just human nature. It’s hard to say that we should never have let them start voting. Is there any way to rationally appeal to the hypergamous subconscious of a woman? You can tell your daughter not to dress slutty, and that being feminine and admiring of a man you want is best tool to get him to commit, but will that actually… Read more »
@Rollo There will never be some global Lysistrata where men organize in solidarity, promising not to fuck another woman until they comply with demands that would place the Masculine Imperative above that of the feminine’s. Our own biology guarantees it. I agree, but I would add one thing here: There will be and already is a growing movement away from provisioning for women who show no appreciation in a legal climate unfavorable to men. The ghettos mentioned above are ALSO an example of this. When only the criminals and the guys without regular, steady, stable jobs are the only ones… Read more »
I don’t know about justice and respect, but I’ve yet to meet any woman who has a concept of ‘honor.’ I don’t blame them for it, either; it’s simply not a part of their upbringing and education.
That’s why frame control is so important as a way of life and especially in Game. I’ve just had the experience where a girl I had been banging for 4 months, then pulled way back from after she went cool suddenly reconnected. It didn’t go well. She’s spoiled, used to guys falling all over her and couldn’t “understand” me or why I was “like that” when it came to not putting up with her crap. She would call me “aging sex addict”–when she was all up for every type of sexual activity. When I told her to “fuck off” first… Read more »
“There’s a manosphere idiom that says women are the gatekeepers of sex while men are the gatekeepers of commitment. I’m not sure I completely agree with that.” I didn’t wholly agree with that either. It’s like a default acceptance of restriction of choices or lack of influence on outcome based only on being male. Yes, women want to be pursued and that can look like a monopoly on choice and power, but men don’t see the option to call off a pursuit as a position of power. As in the topic of the politics of respectability I heard,the burden of… Read more »
@fartofseduction- honor, justice and all that came about from man to man. When times a hard, life is more fragile, you have to know who you can count on and who you can’t. If somebody was there for you, you need to be there for them. Else the group, society, or whatever can’t take the chance of you flaking out for the sake of your own benefit, leaving them vulnerable to surprise that could be very detrimental. In times of prosperity, women can be flakier. Like stories you here about child actors on hit shows spending crazily. That big house… Read more »
Re: Honor
http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/18/the-honor-system/
@Atticus
Pass. I suppose it’s me but I reject the beta mindset of “working together” in all forms with rare exception. It’s a realignment of values that just doesn’t benefit me in spite of all the attempts to socialize “cooperation” into me.
Lesser men are forced to work together, and I’m just not a joiner, sorry.
I’ll use a betas to help myself and if they benefit in the process awesome. If not, meh. The legal system is remarkably simple to maneuver once you learn what it wants and feed IT’S hamster too.
The problem with “Alpha up” is that it ignores how women select mates. If every man in the world dedicated himself to self improvement women would still only be interested in the top 20%. Sjf and Tilikum your advice amounts to “Alpha up”, nothing new from guys who’ve maintained high status. Instead of preening it about, perhaps you could try being thankful that you weren’t raised by wolves or struck down with serious illness or even just gotten unlucky. How “alpha” would you be if you lost your medical license due to a simple human mistake you made, Sjf? Or… Read more »
Regarding the idea of “women as gatekeepers of sex and men as gatekeepers of commitment” – I’ve heard this far too often, and it is nonsense. Men are not the gatekeepers of commitment – the LAW is the gatekeeper of commitment. It’s funny – people can’t seem to agree on what the word “commitment” even means, dictionary definitions aside. I once argued with a female blogger on another site, who basically asserted that “commitment” is nothing more than a word given. She claimed that going to her weekly book-club was a commitment for her. I asked her what the consequence… Read more »
Re: Commitment
http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/29/the-paradox-of-commitment/
Hypergamy is a given and it’s not going anywhere. But even if women’s sexuality is biologically rooted, their rationalizations for it aren’t possible without a compliant culture. So long as women are the damsels, the victims who are put upon by the cruel and all powerful patriarchy, so long as men are perceived to be powerful and free in a way that they clearly are not nor have ever been, open hypergamy is possible. After all, any guy who points it out or complains about it is branded an embittered loser, a misogynist, a creep, and so on, but I… Read more »
If you have a terrible life, it may not be your fault that you have a terrible life, but it is your responsibility to improve your life. This applies to the sexual market place also. It is especially true for men as Bill Burr once said that as women your problems may not get solved, but at least they get addressed by society at large while for men your problems don’t even get addressed and nobody cares; sadly, this is generally speaking true. Your best choices are to become PUA(ALPHA FUX) or MGTOW(least damaged BETA BUX) and your worst choice… Read more »
Thought experiment: imagine the roles of sexual selection were reversed? That men were the gatekeepers of sex and women were ten times hornier than us and were constantly trying to fuck us? FYI even the highest alpha male doesn’t get that. How would men behave? Would we be more considerate of women than they are of us? Lol, we’d be trading them out at our pleasure to the degree that we could. We’d take it for granted and assume we were superior as women do – I mean why would women not assume they are superior to men given how… Read more »
” . . . do they bear the responsibility to conform to our perspective of justice and police the worst impulses of a Hypergamy most are only peripherally aware of?”
Certainly not. It’s men’s responsibility for saying “No,” forcefully. Each side must stand up for its own if there is to be a balance of forces. The rigging lines of a mast must be in equal tension if the mast is to stand. If it falls it isn’t the fault of any one line, it’s a fault of the system of lines.
What I wanted to add is that individually it is mot necessarily each man’s fault for the state of society, but collectively, it is. Women are getting away with a lot because of their male enablers and a divide and conquer strategy. Converting or destroying White Knights/ Manginas to our side is a priority, then getting the women to do what we want will be a mop up operation. In the work place or school, you need to be careful about what you say and do or risk the negative consequences of your actions, but almost any place else such… Read more »
The first rule is to never blame men as a group for the actions of women.
@One: The equation is commutative.
“The problem with “Alpha up” is that it ignores how women select mates. If every man in the world dedicated himself to self improvement women would still only be interested in the top 20%.” I don’t know about that. You don’t walk up to a chick with your attraction percentile written on your forehead. We don’t have a huge amount of historical data to draw from, but I would guess that what makes a pussy tingle now isn’t much different than it was 200 years ago. More Alphas = less Betas = fewer and lower quality plan B’s = Early… Read more »
Biology makes it impossible to ever turn off the drive, but between the grass eaters in Japan and the many friends I have who’ve simply given up on getting sex and refuse to just provision for a low probability of unenthusiastic duty sex (from women who can provision for themselves, no less), I think it just divides in to the haves (Alphas) and the have-nots (Betas) with women really suffering only from a lack of Beta providers. Porn plays a significant role here, too, now that it is available in high definition, in seemingly endless variety and with the privacy… Read more »
Questioning some of the manospheres common believes is great! Please continue, I don’t think we are anywhere near sufficient understanding – at least if one wants more than getting laid. But on the particular question of female responsibility I disagree. You can see that question either from a moral position – blame game. But then we know women don’t share that ideal of justice so this whole point is mostly mood. But if you don’t see the question as a moral one, you have to recognize it’s a powerplay and power is all that matters. In this framework it’s inevitable… Read more »
@Andy – There is a ton of evidence that women choose up – back issues of this site included. I don’t have time to find cites for you as I’m busy right now but a quick google or two should help you out. The fact that women choose up and overshoot is not in dispute. The online dating site numbers are actually terrifying. Guys not in the top tier GET NOTHING. It’s competition and in many ways a relative valuation.
Just read this article on Salon. It seems that the blame is once again shouldered by the man. Women are sexually repressed because MEN weren’t taught how to have sex. I would say that like with most things that women do, women take no responsibility for their own sexual gratification. To paraphrase the great comedian, Jim Jefferies, If I can’t get an erection, I’m called impotent and it’s my fault, but if she can’t get her hole wet she’ll say something like, “he’s wasn’t so good, he didn’t even get me wet”. Which is bullshit because a dry hole is… Read more »
“Men are to blame for women’s behavior…” As far as our culture is concerned, this is a Truth laying in wait to be invoked. This kind of unilateral blame designed to facilitate malleable female agency is now a permanent fixture. The femcentric culture maintains a perpetual indictment of men. The Grand Jury is always in session. On one hand, I see this as women asking to be dominated. Like some kind of meta-shit-test. But while the individual woman desires to be dominated, the collective Woman cannot fathom giving ground in any way. Regardless, an actionable truth from all of this… Read more »
If women were generally victorious in there imperative we would have to acknowledge it. They are not, and both genders fail because of it.
@Atticus. That is my point. A man who adapts to today’s sexual landscape doesn’t have to stop agitating for change. Cernovich is probably the best example of that. He is a leader in the Gamergate uprising while leading a satisfying nomadic lifestyle. That’s the model I intend to emulate. It seems defeatist to just stand back and watch the world burn. And it’s not very masculine as well…
“If women were generally victorious in there imperative we would have to acknowledge it.”
WTF? They have been and continue to be “victorious in there(sic) imperative”. Dealing with that “success” is about all we do here.
“They are not, and both genders fail because of it.”
WTF are you trying to say? Both genders fail because women aren’t victorious? Women aren’t failing, on the contrary have been very successful. Your attempt at cryptic wisdom is rather incoherent. Explain yourself.
WOW = War on Women? Troll?
More Alphas = less Betas = fewer and lower quality plan B’s = Early and earlier epiphanies = changing sexual strategy
I actually don’t think that AF/BB or lane changing will go away as long as women have de facto independence economically from any one specific man. That’s the driver here, and it won’t go away unless there is some kind of sustained economic crisis that impacts women more than it does men.
Women are the gatekeepers of sex.
What are men the gatekeepers of? It must be something. I don’t think it’s commitment. It isn’t provisioning, as women are capable of provisioning for themselves, (although possibly not for themselves, their children, and enough extra for taxes that go to the state, as men do).
I would posit that men are the gatekeepers of violence. It says much about modern society that almost all societal control of violence has been stripped away from men as individuals and given to the state.
“What are men the gatekeepers of? ”
Force, but force is the tool of violence.
@scribblerg July 14th, 2015 at 12:03 pm Yes, it sounds like whining. But hey buddy I’m on your team. I’m not in the top 20% in SMV (but am in MMV). I care about those on my team who aren’t where they want to be. I calibrate my risks all the time in regards to the M.D. license, the farm tractor work, felling trees with a chainsaw, illness, cancer etc. They are relative risks and I would be happy about the life I’ve already lived if I had to go out (die) tomorrow. Those risks don’t inhibit me from “engaging”… Read more »
I actually don’t think that AF/BB or lane changing will go away as long as women have de facto independence economically from any one specific man.
Say there was a 40% alpha rate… Would they still just keep marrying increasingly pathetic chumps? Or would they decide maybe they need to change their strategy?
We know it’s possible for alternate SMP’s to exist. Why does China have so many feminine women? Female workforce labor participation is much higher than the US.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SL.TLF.CACT.FE.ZS
“That’s not to be defeatist, or an endorsement of a MGTOW course of action, but it is to say that if a man has neither the sex appeal to be a short term sexual prospect nor the provisioning appeal to be a long term investment, women feel entirely justified in acting in the best interests of Hypergamy and controlling his capacity for commitment as well.” Basically, women have no problem trashing you to other women so they could make sure nobody fucks you. What a world we live in where they can do this and not be the ones who… Read more »
The question I have is:
Okay, but why would women want to change how things are?
We see and analyze what’s happening, but isn’t it fair to say there’s not going to be a critical mass of? What do we really do, than care for ourselves before it gets better?
https://youtu.be/4a-CmANaDuo
The Fundamental Principle (ala Heartiste) came to mind here. His principle is, “Eggs are expensive; sperm is cheap.” While it is highly reductionistic of him to say that, it has a nugget of truth embedded. Women have always been and always will be, to a certain extent, coddled. Men, on the other hand, will always be reprimanded in some way, shape or form. As long as we remain a sexually reproductive species, we will always acknowledge this core truth in one way or the other. As for “women’s moral agency” one only needs to look at how our ancestors successfully… Read more »
@Andy:
Hong Kong is not mainland China. Completely different.
@SJF – You are being obtuse, stop it. Fortune plays into this, it is nowhere near a pure meritocracy. Genetics alone make that case for me. Period. Dot. End of sentence.
@Andy – China has so many feminine women? What on earth are you going on about? The SMP is always relative, as all marketplaces are.
@Andy:
Rollo: “Hypergamy is nothing if not pragmatic, and efficient.” Answer: Sure it is IF you are a model beauty who will be at least an 8 at 30. You can cash in at 30 and get the best Beta man. BUT if you are not going to be an 8 (due to child birth, heavy carousel use) You MIGHT want to hedge that bet earlier in your 20s. Which should be the advice given by fathers to all their daughters. Rollo: “the debate as to whether women have the same moral agency or the same accountability for it as men.”… Read more »
Watch this video about a female abortion clinic director selling fetal body part against federal law. Tell me this, if so many women care so little for babies, does it shock you that so many just don’t give a shit about men? She talks about it while eating at a nice restaurant and drinking wine. It’s sinister, like watching a Nazi talking about exterminating Jews.
[youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjxwVuozMnU&w=560&h=315%5D
I do NOT blame women or Hypergamy.
I put a100% blame on BETA MEN.
It is the willing beta men who feeds women’s Hypergamy.
That is why a 5.5 tall unattractive man will bust his ass working to make money to compensate.
Betas are the “crude”gas for hypergamt.
Women are more miserable than ever. They have more tools at their disposable to get what they want but cant make it work. It is miserable bitches as far as they eye can see.
Eventually Alana Massey might figure out she can “gleefully reject” every man, woman and child on Tinder and it matters not one whit.
What’s actually a lesbians game in this society?
Btw. this just in
http://projectreporter.nih.gov/project_info_description.cfm?aid=8875036&icde=25285864
Lesbians to being fat and gays being fit – can there be said more about it than “Men like good looks?”.
It looks like the manosphere and feminists finally found common ground.
Feminists: “It’s all men’s fault!”
Manosphere: “You’re damn right! It’s all (beta) men’s fault!”**
Feminists: “Dick is abundant and low value!”
Manosphere: “I will work harder. I’ll run the tightest game you’ve ever seen!”
**Alpha men are blameless of course.
This is a textbook display of feminine hypoagency and masculine hyperagency.
@doclove
I wouldn’t go so far as to say men are solely responsible for women’s unchecked hypergamy, but I definitely agree that it is in our best interests to act as a unit.
More men need to be educated and voice their opinions. The divorce industrial complex needs to be dismantled bit by bit. SJW publications like Gawker need to be attacked. Action needs to be taken both on the individual micro level and at the broader macro level.
I’m just going to spitball here for a bit. There will be a question or two at the end I would like everyone’s comment on. Camille Paglia said that men created civilization as a defense against women’s sexual power. I didn’t understand that at all when I first read that in the mid ’80s, but, boy, I sure do now. Women are the guardians of the species, i.e., the genes. She is wired to pursue those attributes/traits/characteristics that embody, in her limbic opinion, the best manifestation of testosterone for her environment at the time. She cares nothing for honor, for… Read more »
Kyfho – Great observations. Indeed, I didn’t understand Paglia until the Red Pill. She really gets the centrality of sex as a driver and the dynamics between men and women. As for justice, you won’t get agreement among men on what it is either. I love the idea that civilization itself arises as an emergent property of male competition for pussy. I’ve read elsewhere that it’s quite possible the development of human intellect and our large forebrains is really an example of runaway selection – and men do have more brain mass than women, and more “grey matter”. The brain… Read more »
This is where good old-fashioned Northern European moral individualism comes in very handy. Is one adult responsible for the moral choices of another? NO Are parents responsible for developing a moral sense in their children? YES Do parents have to do so against the tide of culture and peer-groups at school? SURE Do different moral standards apply to men and women? NO. (Morality is blind to the identity of actors.) Is a female over 18 a legal adult? YES Is she subject to the same moral standards as a man? YES Does it matter if she thinks otherwise? NO Is… Read more »
I c&p’d this from the TRP subredd: https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/3d9hpo/our_sisters_keeper/ Interesting Question Rollo. Is it truly men’s responsibility to keep women’s biological imperatives in check? My gut says yes, but I’ve recently seen things that contest that feeling. I’ll explain. As the superior sex, it is your responsibility to lead and guide those under you. If the Red Pill way truly has the man as the leader/head of the relationship then how is it that we expect him to not also be held responsible for the failings in his weaker counterparts? Do you not blame the parents when a kid acts like… Read more »
Genetics is a driver of so many social/behavioral/cognitive/pychological factors that I think you’ll be hard pressed to overcome them easily via nurturing. I wish I had the cite, but I read a summary of a paper a year or two ago which demonstrated that nurture had very little affect, and that indeed, you could predict quite a bit about how adopted kids would turn out based on the blood parents – not limited to IQ. Who’s responsible for what their children do as an adult? Not me, my adult child does as she sees fit and runs her life very… Read more »
It looks like the manosphere and feminists finally found common ground. Some of the manosphere. My finger is pointed straight at biology and male:female sex ratios in an equalist, post-war society. Hypergamy evolved in a world where men died more frequently an in larger numbers, plus those same men almost universally performed tasks of provisioning that no amount of equal rights legislation could magically make a woman able to do. Now that there’s basically even numbers (or in some parts of the First World, more men), and women have been given the means to fully provision for themselves, Betas are… Read more »
@Sun, I tried to account for this in the post: So while this is an illustration of men’s deductive pragmatism in their adapting to the SMP, it’s also an illustration of how that adaptation can work against men’s best interests. Between the 80s, 90s and into the early 2000s this adaptation involved men following women’s lead to systematically turn conventional, positive masculinity into ridiculous or gay-associations of “macho-ness”. Later, defining the very idea of masculinity would progress from ambiguousness to women being the sole authority of what masculinity should mean to a man. Beta men are now the (primary) victims… Read more »
@Sun – EXACTLY, well said. Hate the game, not the players…
@Rollo
I suppose the irony is that all the people who felt evolution can no longer touch humans (I used to be one of them when I was much younger) are suddenly finding that it can. Not to mention it’s just as cruel and unforgiving to the losers as it ever was.
[…] Tomassi of Irrational Male fame has written a post called, Our Sister’s Keeper. Yikes. Ai yi yi, where to start, with hip waders and goggles I suppose, and a big shovel so we can […]
I see Insanity has flown off the handle with her expected non-contextual histrionics about this post.
It’s rather entertaining. Even when I ban her she writes posts that confirm everything I go into.
@All For those who were wanting to participate in The Man Table on this Sunday the 19th at 16:00 Central, you’ll need to download a copy of the Teamspeak 3 Client for your appropriate operating system. Please make sure to use headphones instead of speakers if you wish to participate with a microphone. The server address to connect to will be neo.themantable.net and you can just use the same handle you use here to make it easier for folks to identify who you are. No password is needed, but I will be moderating things as needed. Looking forward to it… Read more »
@Seven Dials
Agree 100 percent. Even women are saying the same thing. Not just anti-feminists either. So if rational women are saying they have responsibility and agency, why does the manosphere continue to blame men for all of society’s ills?
I personally don’t want to be shamed by the feminists as well as my own camp.
Having a mission in life, integrity, honor, honesty, being intelligent, being funny, being nice to your mother and bla bla bla….doesn’t mean a jack shit for most women unless they‘r looking for a tool. The only thing that really matter to them are pussy tingles. If you can not give them that through your look and demeanour (and rough fuck) , you‘r fucked. Nothing you do can compensate for this lack and women can‘t respect you.
I am somewhat new to red pill truths and I have a question that I can’t seem to answer myself. Just recently I went on a vacation and I couldn’t help but stop and glance at some of the couples that I saw walking the beach or out in public. I saw really attractive girls, ages anywhere between 17-19, possibly younger, I don’t know, with guys who I and others that were with me, did not think we’re near the attractiveness of the girls they were with. And it’s not just when I’m on vacation that I see this. Now… Read more »
Rule of Wrist – “I would posit that men are the gatekeepers of violence. It says much about modern society that almost all societal control of violence has been stripped away from men as individuals and given to the state.” This is almost exactly correct. I’d go further and say men are the gate keepers of life because men hold the natural monopoly on violence. Men also created the artificial state monopoly on violence. By doing so they were freed to channel their violence against their environment in the quest to obtain regular and predictable access to food, shelter and… Read more »
Do I continue a soft next (a week now) with a girl who doesnt initiate because shes been hurt from me in the past and wants to see if i can “change” etc..
Whenever I hit her up every other week or so, it ends in sex/stayin’ overnight, but it’s getting to the point where I want her to initiate.
Should I shoot a text being like “if i have to text u everytime for us hookin up, im eventually gonna drop u”
or
“no good dick for u unless u initiate!”
@ Sun Wukong “The server address to connect to will be neo.themantable.net” Can you also list alternative server addresses like the “number one”? Last time Teamspeak didn’t accept themantable.net server name and let me in. @ ScribblerG Sorry man, I do agree I am being obtuse. My brain is a bit uncharacteristically foggy yesterday and today (due to over-stimulation on the weekend). Since we got our wish and more commentators have come out of the woodwork and have been making fantastic comments in this thread I going to shut the fuck up for a bit. You said “To me, the… Read more »
@Rollo “the concept of justice held by men. In the intersexual arena, what best serves men’s imperatives is justice” I disagree, if most men viewed justice as that which simply serves their imperatives, the manosphere would be dominated with outrage that men don’t get to fuck whatever woman they want whenever they want. While generally bitterness about sexual denial is easy to find, it is not the primary complaint. The actual outrage is over the lack of personal responsibility and above all lack honesty that women in the modern western world conduct themselves with and and quite easily get away… Read more »
@ Walawala
She’s spoiled, used to guys falling all over her and couldn’t “understand” me or why I was “like that” when it came to not putting up with her crap.
+1 I ran into the same exact thing. These broads all want a man who won’t put up with their crap and will whine because the man won’t put up with their crap. You just live with it and chuckle. Or next them, but they all will do it.
If you haven’t already read it, she goes on and on about how male attention is abundant and cheap, proving that women are well aware of what men who bother with online dating realized from the start.
The truth of the matter is that alphas are the gatekeepers of sex with women and women are the gatekeepers of sex with betas. Alana Massey is blind to the distinction between alphas and betas. She lumps both in the category “men”. Attention from betas is abundant and cheap–not attention from alphas.
Important correction – the state has a monopoly on the use of retributive force, individuals still retain the freedom to use force in self defense or in the defense of others who face severe bodily harm or death. Such an arrangement accrues to men’s benefit as much as women’s and likely more as we are more often the targets of violence than women are. Once again, only the narrow POV of the winner of violent interchanges seems to occur to be making it through on this thread. As someone who had more fights by the time I was 10 than… Read more »
minor correction – In some jurisdictions you can use force to protect your property too.
This is one of the most insightful, important, and powerful comment threads in recent memory. I’m following this one to the end.
“Rollo Tomassi
July 14th, 2015 at 7:04 pm
I see Insanity has flown off the handle with her expected non-contextual histrionics about this post.
It’s rather entertaining. Even when I ban her she writes posts that confirm everything I go into.”
She is attracted to you, therefor your thoughts and your view of her shape her. It’s her subconsciousness trying to please you. Or a women getting shaped from the container you offer them, as you wrote if I remember right.
I can’t see how such a creature could be a responsible agent…