I thought this was an interesting comment from CaveClown from a few posts ago. Needless to say the commentariat has increased in the last 6 months and I wanted to air this out rather than have it buried five pages deep:
Rollo, question if you have time.
After unsuccessfully searching the archives, and having read your new book, i wonder if you have a post that further explains:1. Why a “good girl” would skip the party years.
2. Why that good girl would become an early consolidator, and settle for a beta provider.I understand that the “good girl” persona is just an attempt at seduction through differentiating herself from the “sluts”
I also understand that the “promise” of dropping the good girl act ‘for him’ is what snags the beta. The promise of her “sexual best” and all. (which is why women that do ride the carousel go “born again” later, no?)
At first glance, it seems like a solid strategy for hypergamy. If she can sell herself as virtuous, pure, and virginal, then she should have higher SMV.
Then why settle for a beta?
I’m trying to reconcile the “good girl” persona, and the manosphere trope about marrying a virgin. Seems a lot of men think that “if I could just find a virgin” things would be ok for them. (which is just a variation of blue pill/soul mate stuff)
I detailed a bit of the first question in Making Up For Missing Out and Good Girls Do. It’s important to make the distinction between a ‘good girl’ in that she’s nominally following the old-set-of-books traditional social contract, and the Good Girl strategy I went into in the latter post.
Bear in mind, no woman actually “skips” the Party Years. She may participate to greater or lesser degree in the opportunities those years open up to her, but she’s still keenly aware of those opportunities and realizes the window for them closes as her beauty and fertility fade. She sees her girlfriends, maybe sisters, indulge those opportunities, or she may live them vicariously through media that panders to them, but regardless, she’s feeling the pull of knowing she could potentially realize them.
One of my best friends married his first wife very early – him 21, and her 19. The guy was very Alpha (military), but had the White Knight script firmly coded into him courtesy of his Blue Pill conditioning. He did everything by the old set of books and knew he wanted to marry her after they’d been together for about eight months. He wasn’t her first lay, but she didn’t have more than 1 previous boyfriend, so while not a virgin she hadn’t been on the proverbial carousel for long at all.
They had three kids, early and out of the gate right after they married. She ‘played house’ well enough all through her 20’s while her sisters and girlfriends had their Party Years and urged her to come along for their GNOs. Once their youngest was old enough to be self-sufficient she started joining them. By the time she was 33 the marriage was over because she’d decided to follow the making up for missing out dynamic. She ended up cheating on him and then doing her version of the Wild Oats Project.
Virgin Brides Alpha Widows
There’s a wishful contingent of guys in the ‘sphere who think finding a young virgin bride before the world’s corrupted her pure soul is (or at least should be) a tenable goal. I understand the want and logic behind that, but even with a virgin bride there is no insulation from the sexual marketplace or the realities women experience as they mature.
By all measure this guy’s wife was as close to that ideal as was practical. He’s also one of more than a dozen men I’ve known who’s “good Christian wives” detonated their marriages in a similar fashion. Generally all went along with the divorce-porn fantasies after their dutiful husbands had become boring Betas in their esteem.
2. Why [would] that good girl would become an early consolidator, and settle for a beta provider.
Religious conviction, LSE (low self esteem), definitely cultural or economic motivations, a fear of men in general leading to security issues. You also have to consider the likelihood that the guy she settles on early is possibly the most Alpha guy she’s ever experienced.
Of the 40+ women I’ve had in my sexual past, two were virgins. Both of these women sought me out on Face Book 15-20 years after we’d went our separate ways. They are definitely not the same girls I knew back then, but I think this is an interesting illustration of a larger dynamic. Then and now, both of these girls surprised me with their attachment to me – I think that’s part of a bond you make with a woman when you’re her first.
It’s the “never forget your first” dynamic. There’s a presumption that any guy a “good girl” grants access to her pussy must be a top tier man to qualify for it. This is an ingrained psychological schema for women with the self perception of being a “good girl”.
So she consolidates on what she perceives was Alpha for her at 18. That perception is markedly different from what she’ll perceive as Alpha at 29, right as she enters her Epiphany Phase. If you read back through the Preventive Medicine series (or the book), I specifically outline a phase on women maturation timeline called the Break Phase. This is generally around the late teens (17-19) and I noted it in particular because it’s a moment in a young man’s life when his Blue Pill idealism is most commonly first tested.
The flip side of the Break Phase for women is the “never forget your first” dynamic conflicting with the opportunities her rapidly approaching peak SMV phase present to her. There may be an emotional investment on her part with a man she up to that point esteemed as the most Alpha man she was likely to ever pair with.
The Jig is Up
The danger inherent in these arrangements is that both young men and women make life-altering decisions based on their adolescent social skill set – not what will be their (hopefully) matured adult social skill set based on their experiences and acculturation. Thus you have the common situation my now-divorced friend experienced. I say common because one of the most frequent situations I get asked advice about from divorced men in their mid 30’s to early 40’s is how to initiate Game and wisely use their new Red Pill awareness after having been married since 23 or so.
For the most part they’re still confused how the woman who’d found them so Alpha at that age could toss off all of the relational equity he’d thought he’d earned with her and leave him for the ‘douchebags’ she’d always claimed to hate. What they don’t (or didn’t) realize is the root level resentment they’re experiencing with a woman they may have been married to for 15 years. That resentment stems from coming to terms with their Hypergamous filtering having been ‘fooled’ all those years ago; and the crush loss of not having been able to capitalize on the opportunities of those years.
It’s not that she’d settled for what she thought was a Beta in her early twenties, it’s that he was what she thought was Alpha then, but learned later that he wasn’t. This is the risk inherent to Hypergamy – that a woman might miss out on more optimal sexual selection choices while still in her peak SMV phase and able to choose from the broadest pool.
It’s almost a reversal of women who follow the Sandberg plan of Hypergamy and make disclaimers of how different they are now from how they used to be in college. The sentiment is still the same, but the roles are reversed – she’s different now from how she used to be because she (thinks) she has a better grasp of what is Alpha now and he ain’t it.
If there’s a silver lining to this it’s that this post-marriage Epiphany Phase generally happens earlier in a man’s life. If he’s made a lot of his potential up to then, and the divorce wasn’t too devastating, he’s in a far better position as far as life stage is concerned than the Beta guy a woman settles for at 29 after her Party Years. That fellow gets the Beta boot in his 50s and it’s a tall order to recover and have a Red Pill awakening.
@Caveclown
Way to go.
[…] You Never Forget Your First […]
There’s a wishful contingent of guys in the ‘sphere who think finding a young virgin bride before the world’s corrupted her pure soul is (or at least should be) a tenable goal. I understand the want and logic behind that, but even with a virgin bride there is no insulation from the sexual marketplace or the realities women experience as they mature. Two things: First, I’m curious if you would include me in that contingent. Second, you are absolutely right that a woman being a virgin is airtight protection from reality. It isn’t. In fact, there are a few guys… Read more »
so when a girl is giving it up to a guy “she perceives” as alpha at the time of her party years and then slowly gets bored and breaks up with him or whatever…..then she looks back 10 years down the road and “she perceives” him as even more alpha then before because maybe he’s a top dog lawyer or something….
How does a woman handle that? Will she come back with more passion? Or will she just forget about it and rationalize it
Women fight their nature all the time.
Hence girlfriends deciding not to go to events where they KNOW tons of alphas will be there. Idk I keep reminding myself that there is no “special snowflake unicorn”. Which is true, but I do think there are very different types of girls out there
In my AFC days I was always worried that a girl who broke up with me would “forget” me….there was something about that which bothered me—that the time we had spent together was a waste. But over the years I’ve had women reconnect after months, even years. In one very odd case a girl I guess you could say I ‘gamed’ 10+ years ago just before she was to be married disappeared. We never had anything between us. She was hot. I think I was a kind of orbiter. A year or so ago it turns out she is working… Read more »
On topic: The statement, “you never forget your first” is very true for women. This is why I always laugh when guys think they have “compete” control over a girl they are with in their early to late twenties. By her mid twenties, at least in America, the girl is already an Alpha Widow to her first “love”. I’ve seen this situation happen many times with not only women I have dated but with women in my family. The women I grew up with, still to this day(!), will gush at how they still remember (Him) and this is after… Read more »
There’s a wishful contingent of guys in the ‘sphere who think finding a young virgin bride before the world’s corrupted her pure soul is (or at least should be) a tenable goal. I understand the want and logic behind that, but even with a virgin bride there is no insulation from the sexual marketplace or the realities women experience as they mature. Yes, a virgin bride does not ensure insulation from the sexual marketplace, but it cannot be said that there is no effect at all, as the correlation between previous number of partners and divorce rates clearly shows. In… Read more »
Great stuff Rollo. And you do a pitch perfect job of illuminating the distinctions and commonalities between the early-life marriage divorcee vs. the carousel rider turned late bride. Although neither fits in with my own situation. I married a girl when she was 25 (I was 29), her notch count was disclosed as 12 (so let’s call it 35 and I’ve made the note to never again ask). We were married all of a year before it was almost nightly GNO, sexless marriage hell, etc. Fast forward six months and the marriage ended. I had only just discovered the manosphere… Read more »
@BC The “correlation doesn’t imply causation” aspect had gotta play a big role in this. The virgin bride in the post-modern US (or even low single digit N-count) is almost entirely so because of a major dose of religious, cultural, and familial pressures and constraints. Those same pressures and constraints that keep her hymen intact also serve to keep her marriage intact. That woman’s eyes still wander, her hypergamy is no less pronounced than any other woman’s. It’s merely the same religious, cultural, and familial forces that kept her chastity preserved that will express profound social shame should she renege… Read more »
The picture below is haunting how do I get a Big Copy of it I love it Good article too
Sent from my iPhone
@BC And a note to self, I will now read comments fully before commenting. Though I’ll also readily admit that I suspect a man of the sphere and a woman of deep and abiding religious devotion will have some difficulties along the way. My general experience with a religious girl is that she will expect some measure of comparable belief (if not the same piety) from her mate. And my experience with the manosphere, outside of Dalrock, has been a pronounced scientific methodology, a general understanding and appreciation of biological evolution, and the sort of personality that a woman of… Read more »
Hey, at least the guy got some heirs out of it and got to tap that ass until she hit the wall. Better than the sorry @ss mofos who came later. With any luck he’s out of the divorce with minimal damage and can start dating/plating/mating with younger women (although as a bluepill, probably not).
There are no unicorns, death is inevitable and we are all fundamentally alone. But other than that, life if a picnic.
@sudden Though I’ll also readily admit that I suspect a man of the sphere and a woman of deep and abiding religious devotion will have some difficulties along the way. Hardly. My easiest scores without commitment were all deeply religious chicks. One was a married chick. They all wanted me to commit but let me hit it many times before pushing for commitment. They’re easier to get in to bed because they’re not used to even remotely Alpha behavior out of men (modern Christianity produces Beta eunuchs), and one whiff of it leaves them wanting you to stay with them… Read more »
The fewer previous sexual partners, the better but it does not make up for a lack of game/redpill awareness. The same goes for religion. These things improve your odds of success (and even small improvements count in the sexual market place) but they do NOT exempt you from the burden of performance.
It’s not that women realise the man’s beta traits. Its that she turns him into one through the process of commitment. Women want yet scorn the idea of betaising their men and ‘fixing them up. Yet they secretly hate it when it happens. They’re a walking contradiction.
The solution is simple, don’t get married.
Rollo,
Thank you for the insights, and taking the time to cover my question in a post.
Virginity is supposed to be an outward expression of inward virtue. Just because a woman is a virgin doesn’t necessarily mean she’s virtuous. Hence why guys can marry a virgin and then she may divorce or cheat on him later.
Purity of heart is the more important concept to look for.
As for guys it is also about the state of your heart.
“…LSE (low self esteem)… a fear of men in general leading to security issues.”
Beware the virgin bride who sells herself as virtuous and pure, all in an attempt to cover up these or other mental health issues.
“@Caveclown
Way to go.”
Thanks rugby.
I met my ex-to-be when I was 21 and she was 23. We were living together in 6 months, married when I was 24 and split when I was 30. I have speculated here often about how Beta I became in the relationship, but I realize now that this behavior was better described as “White Knight”, or Savior kind of behavior. Which of course turned me into a supplicant to her. She was a 10 (9 on the Tomassi scale but objectively she was homecoming and prom queen) and initially she was an enthusiastic lover. I think Rollo lays out… Read more »
I think what a lot of guys are looking for in both Blue Pill and Red Pill is some kind of Bumper to Bumper 100,000 mile warranty that will keep their marriage intact… There isn’t one. Men tend to operate on logic, women on the emotion of the moment, which is why things like chastity belts were invented. If your marriage goes bad after 10-20 years take pleasure in the fact you got all the pretty, the other guy gets your leftovers.
Alfalfa or Betamax, in the long run it is lack of clarity of what life is really about. The bombardment of exciting things happens 24/7/365. Yes women and men after x years feel that they are missing out. “life is more then this. I deserve it” Boom. Some actually have a better life after, but sadly, according to a lot of mental health pro’s, most do not. As a very wise man has said repeatedly – ‘Love is an Act of Will’ My father, never, in his 95 years on this globe borrowed or lent a dime. We needed something,… Read more »
Disclaimer
The following is not meant to be a threadjack. If you aren’t interested please don’t feel the need to respond. Continue with your conversation about Rollo’s post. I used my mad Photoshop skillz to make this and I wanted to upload it as it is my last, significant contribution on the subject.
http://i.imgur.com/MiAEHRq.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/QHJl3Fn.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/5bOS8X4.jpg
Female sexual strategy is comprised of three instincts. AF, BB and Motherhood. A minority of women focus heavily in one area while most follow a comprehensive strategy that is a mixture of all three. At their simplest these instincts can be described in this way. AF: Acquire good genes. BB: Assemble the resources. Motherhood: Raise the child. By itself AF/BB is not a good predictor of female behavior. AF forecasts that women will strongly pursue short term sexual access to Alpha males. Although that behavior occurs it is not the norm. In addition AF predicts a much higher level of… Read more »
Great post Rollo. This reminds me of how other societies separate their women from society. Perhaps this kind of behavior is the only response to FI Hypergamy. For my part I nixed the GNOs early with an LTR once. One night of her coming home at 3am is all it took. In a cold fury I told her it was me or her girlfriends. I often look back on that and ask myself “what if”. I literally had to threaten leaving to get her to wake up to the implications of going out like this. I firmly believe that had… Read more »
@droids
Should post that at your own blog so nobody can read it there.
@rollo,
Can we please dump the spammer?
A man thinking in terms of generations should plan for at least 3 LTRs in his life that yield children. All of my boys know that after 18, you ALWAYS keep a lawyer on retainer for the balance of your existence.
Set your self up to succeed gentleman, by not trusting that a dopey split tail can be ever trusted wholly (including dear old mom).
All relationships other than from you down to your children, are conditional.
Ang, one of roissy’s points is to be the rock for her emotions to break upon, or something like that.
Most women need stability, but not in a sissy way.
@ zdr01dz Disclaimer The following is not meant to be a threadjack. If you aren’t interested please don’t feel the need to respond. Continue with your conversation about Rollo’s post. I used my mad Photoshop skillz to make this and I wanted to upload it as it is my last, significant contribution on the subject. That’s just bullshit. “not meant to be a threadjack” and then you do precisely that. People are going to respond to you. Now you’re becoming both a spammer *and* a troll and it is plainly obvious. You made your “case”, many here reject it, some… Read more »
“Roosh is, without a doubt, creating a church. He’s a strategist at heart, so he’s been following the 48 Laws of Power with impunity.”
He even has his character/avatar look like Jesus. Purposely grown a beard to give him the the old/wise man look. He definitely has a Messiah complex!
With respect, my take on Cave Clown’s question in the post is different, and it relates to the way we define hypergamy. Often, in these blogs, hypergamy is taken to mean that women desire men who are generally “better” than them. But I don’t believe this to be strictly true. Rather, women want men who are better (or at least equal) at the specific qualities the women most admire in themselves, or wish they had themselves, at the given time. Thus, a 19 year old girl who most admires her own appearance and social status and who wishes that she… Read more »
Novaseeker had the best response to Zdroid’s tripartite feminine drives. I can’t find it right now so I’ll try to summarize it. Motherhood isn’t a separate drive. Rather, motherhood is subsumed within AF and BB, but for different reasons under each. Motherhood in relation to AF is to get the best genetic material available for fertilization and giving birth to strong, healthy babies. Motherhood in relation to BB is the acquisition, cultivation and deployment of resources (time, labor, money) to raise babies to adulthood, or at least keep them from getting killed. Motherhood isn’t a “separate drive”, distinct from AF… Read more »
Even if Droid were 100% correct, a motherhood instinct has almost no bearing whatsoever on how women treat the men they may or may not have sex with, hence it is off-topic for this blog.
http://www.justfourguys.com/male-female-directives/
`@Tilikum – Indeed, it seems you have a very strong self-orientation and a wise approach to things. I try to imagine sometimes what I might have done with my life had I known what was what when I was 18 or 24. The day I got married, I knew I shouldn’t be doing it in my guts. But I did so anyway. It was the script I’d been handed and what I “wanted” or didn’t was small beer. The entire point of my growing up was to teach me that what I wanted was to be overcome, not embraced. The… Read more »
“Why [would] that good girl would become an early consolidator, and settle for a beta provider? A:Religious conviction, LSE (low self esteem), definitely cultural or economic motivations, a fear of men in general leading to security issues. You also have to consider the likelihood that the guy she settles on early is possibly the most Alpha guy she’s ever experienced.” Don’t bite my head off Tomassi, but some of us never even thought of ourselves as “good girls.” In fact, healthy religious conviction allows you to be aware that you aren’t good at all. Some of us did not “settle… Read more »
What inspires contempt? Perpetual learned helplessness, the same kind of helplessness that your ideology promotes. That contempt is due to men relying on the Blue Pill Beta Game strategies their feminization conditioning predisposes them to. That contempt comes from familiarity, comfort and all of the ant-seductive behaviors and ideas a man believes should earn him a woman’s unnegotiated passion. What the Red Pill gives men is a functional, operational awareness of the realities of his situation, and within that new awareness create a new life based on that knowledge. http://therationalmale.com/2014/09/29/a-new-hope/ What’s problematic to you is that men would take that… Read more »
“What frightens women about the Red Pill is that this awareness makes a man more powerful than a woman in this respect.”
Actually Tomassi, it is not power in men that frightens women, but rather weakness. Weak men tend to confuse dominance with destruction, dominion with annihilation. Those of us you call alpha chasers are actually seeking out the most masculine, most dominant men, because they are also the ones proven to be the least dangerous to us.
Hence the weaker, more submissive, more wounded you are, the more repulsive.
Yeah, not so much…
http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/28/insanity-plea/
The 300 ladies in the Anders Breivik all-girl fan club disagree with you.
http://www.abacus-news.co.uk/news/11/breiviks-marriage-proposals.php
“Now, back to your original question – why would a high-quality 22 year old woman specifically SEEK OUT a Beta male, when she could have an Alpha? The answer is that the qualities this particular woman most admires in herself at that time are the qualities of stability, and thus she specifically seeks a man with those qualities.” Alpha fucks / Beta bucks is hard wired. Nature, not nurture. (which btw, is what Roosh is getting wrong with his take on evolution, mistaking nurture for nature) With that truth in mind… If she seeks security at such a young age,… Read more »
Usual timeline:
1. Early consolidator girl (virgin, or at least “virgin-ish”) marries beta.
2. Alpha fucks kicks in, girl shit tests beta.
3. Beta fails tests. (Doubles down on being beta)
4. This goes on for years or whatever.
5. Epiphany phase.
6. Girl either cheats, leaves, or shit tests beta until he breaks. (leaves, suicide, rock bottom escapism)
7. Relationship ends.
By my count, the man can fix this at steps #1 or #2. (be more alpha)
Get very far into step #3 and you’re fucked. (probably not literally fucked though, lol)
RT, There’s a wishful contingent of guys in the ‘sphere who think finding a young virgin bride before the world’s corrupted her pure soul is (or at least should be) a tenable goal.
I’m laughing here on the “wishful”. I know many, many men and communities who are living out this mythical “goal”. For traditional religious people (I’m not taking about modern “Christian” MTD here) chastity followed by marriage is the norm. Women benefit greatly from the traditional motherhood meme, and while it’s a decent deal for men, it’s not a walk in the park.
@photospam-guy Funny pics.Still,don’t mess with the alpha commentators.This is serious business. The issue with the blog is that there’s no solution prescribed.Only enlightment.In essence,the summary of Rollo’s wordy posts is–women will fuck,you just have to be the right guy.Well,being the right guy is what’s the pivot of many men’s anxiety.Nobody taught us to be men,especially being a child of a single mum.I guess you become alpha by following your dreams,improving game and adding meat to muscle.I really don’t think I’m getting married.Knowing all too well what women do in there ‘party years’ what’s the use? Thanx Tommy,and sorry for the… Read more »
“The issue with the blog is that there’s no solution prescribed.” I went to school to be an auto mechanic. The classes were divided into two different areas: 1. Theory and understanding. This is where we studied how DC electricity worked, the theory behind combustion, etc. We never discussed how to fix something that was broken, we only learned about how something worked. 2. The second class was solutions. This is where we applied our knowledge of theory to fix the vehicle. We never bitched in the theory class about not knowing how to fix the vehicle, because that was… Read more »
Great article, Rollo. The last concept I’ve been struggling with is, while AWALT, why are some women more adept at keeping their hypergamy on a shorter leash? This article definitely added some context to my understanding. I found your last comment, “That fellow gets the Beta boot in his 50s and it’s a tall order to recover and have a Red Pill awakening.”, particularly interesting. Given that there are a significant number of commenters, recently unplugged, in their 50’s (self included), the facts would seem to prove otherwise… it’s my perspective that men in their 50’s are (overly?) ripe for… Read more »
“That fellow gets the Beta boot in his 50s and it’s a tall order to recover and have a Red Pill awakening.” My challenge precisely, but getting there, thanks to you Rollo and the company here. Interestingly I was finally able to break a 40+ year case of oneitis after a relatively short immersion in TRM. @ thedeti, Please don’t feed the troll(s). They made a hash of the last post. Glenn, Your generosity in “serving” your fellow men here is greatly appreciated, in fact is necessary and becoming relied upon by myself and others reading in this forum. I… Read more »
@zdr01dz
I gave you the benefit of the doubt up till now.
Knock that shit off. It’s getting really fucking annoying.
“The last concept I’ve been struggling with is, while AWALT, why are some women more adept at keeping their hypergamy on a shorter leash?” We don’t. We actually embrace it. Why in the world would any woman want to deny and repress the very nature of her own self? Cruel perhaps, but when men fail to respond to who we actually are, we simply offload you. “Funny, I was always taught that women married for love. It was more opportunistic than that? Thanks for clarifying…lol” Love takes a life time to grow into. Men marry for access to sex and… Read more »
Heh, you don’t read Dalrock much do you?
@ Glenn I think that the point of the pill is to accept the blessing of living in a flawed world that is totally contrary to the blue pill idealizations. Women and men are both flawed in their own ways. What you can do is to enjoy your path through it. You sound like a smart, hardworking guy who can do many things. I think that you still feel a need for an idealized vision whereas all that you can do is enjoy the moments. The highlight of my life is just to feel my physical body connect with my… Read more »
“We primarily leave men due to contempt. What inspires contempt? Perpetual learned helplessness, the same kind of helplessness that your ideology promotes.” Yes, there are a lot of unattractive, contempt-inducing men out there. But not because of “ideologies” promoted here. They don’t suffer from learned helplessness because of masculinity; but rather because of the blue-pill falsehoods inculcated into them. Falsehoods like “praying is sexy” and “being a good man is sexy” and “women love good men”. ” In an odd kind of paradox, we’re supposed to sit on our own alleged uncontrollable hypergamy and be good girls for you.” No.… Read more »
I just trudged my way through the single most nonsensical post I’ve ever read from Roosh. I knew he was stewing some anti-evolution post for a while now, but quite honestly I’d expect far better than hanging his denial is on one book by David Stove and constant back-referral to Darwin. Wow. I was ready to dissect this post with my own, but now I see it’d be a waste of time debating with a man who lacks a basic grasp of where evolution science has progressed since the time of Charles Darwin. Quintus Curtius has truly done a number… Read more »
” . . . most women’s low interest in short term sexual relationships . . .” . . . serves the purpose of avoiding motherhood. In Classical Greece a species of plant was driven nearly to extinction because of its ability to prevent pregnancy. Which is what AF/BB predicts. The place you are most likely to see openly displayed baby rabies is in childless (especially if she’s had an abortion or three), post wall CC riders trying to nail down B bucks. Which is what AF/BB predicts in an environment where pregnancy carried to term is a choice women make.… Read more »
“You’re supposed to use those instincts to secure the best man for yourself for short term sexy and long term security. And then you’re supposed to be content with the choices you made and make the best of them.” I did that, Deti, but I really can’t say “I” did that, actually my husband did. That is the part that so many of you cannot seem to grasp, what women are and do is somewhat irrelevant, who you are is what matters. To endlessly bemoan hypergamy, to relentlessly wallow in what you perceive to be biological inequality, just creates learned… Read more »
No one is “bemoaning” Hypergamy, insanity. If anything the Red Pill embraces the cruel realities of it and attempts (at least) to offer actionable contingencies for it – Game.
You think it’s “bemoaning” because you’d rather it remain behind the curtain of the great and powerful Oz. That’s an issue I suggest you take up with your sisters who endorse Open Hypergamy with such zeal.
Assuming that alfalfa is more mental then physical, then the notion that women fuck alfalfas for their superior genes is a stretch. We all know men who physically are dominant but emotionally are wimps. If nature trumps nurture, and these wimps evidence superior physical genes, then the notion of af/bb is not on. Also, if the common notion that 80% of women get fucked by the 20% alfalfa’s is true, why is not the world teeming with alfalfa’s? These genes, so highly valued, seem to be about 4/5 made up of beta genetics, which again puts the af/bb theorem in… Read more »
“Heh, you don’t read Dalrock much do you?”
Not much, no. I cannot bear to watch him pervert and distort scripture. I nearly threw up when some commentators there decided men were incapable of sin and attempted to lay all sin at the feet of women and declare themselves to be mini gods in Christ’s name. Also, Dalrock often puts red pill ideology before scripture and deletes even the most civil comments because he cannot handle even the gentlest criticism.
Haha, Roosh dropped his own confirmation bias out of his pants as if he forgot to zip his fly. Anti-evolutionary behaviors should have been weeded out of the gene pool according to the idea of natural selection, but the more I looked around, the more I saw nothing but my own behavior, of people who were actually frightened to death about being a parent even though they were healthy and could afford to raise children. In fact, the sum of Western ideologies seem aimed to specifically halt human reproduction. Roosh, you’re a sex tourist, you spend your free time in… Read more »
Roosh makes the fundamental mistake that evolution is “survival of the fittest” (not even a Darwinian quote). He even uses the term “strongest” and “fittest”.
It’s not about strength or fitness, it’s survival of the species that’s best able to adapt to its environment. That’s what Game is, behavioral adaptation to a post-sexual revolution environment.
insane – the hardest part of the mystical journey is taking the first step. Whence the step is taken, curtains start getting peeled back, mists come and go, and the coldness of TRUTH, is a huge shock. some men wilt on the path and stay prostate til death, others pick themselves up and continue, knowing that though TRUTH has no sympathy for anyone, it is still the only reality in the universe. Give these guys some time to come to this moment, then the real path is revealed, and all changes forever. From you – “It’s a harsh truth but… Read more »
“That’s an issue I suggest you take up with your sisters who endorse Open Hypergamy with such zeal.”
Why should I? Seriously, if so many red pills are going to simply declare women to be the enemy, then game on, girls embrace your hypergamy, and let’s get about the business of shoving Western civilization off the cliff while we still can.
Your “actionable contingencies,” are totally self serving, so I have absolutely no moral argument for why women’s should not also be the same.
“Give these guys some time to come to this moment, then the real path is revealed, and all changes forever.”
You are right. I am sorry. My impatience sometimes gets the best of me.
“women want men who are better (or at least equal) at the specific qualities the women most admire in themselves, or wish they had themselves, at the given time.” -Jeremy This is very close to a theory that I first came up with when I was 16 years old and have never seen contradicted by a real life example in the subsequent 20 years. Women select mates exactly like they select everything else in their life: according to how they think it enhances their identity. Not only haircuts, clothing, etc., but pretty much every purchase and everything a woman does… Read more »
Rollo calls it game, I call it masculinity. But your quote above says it succinctly. We have been handing our power away and hell still has not frozen over. This is the lesson that is slowly bubbling to the surface in Men’s consciousness.
Wow, Roosh lost any credibility I gave him on this one. He jumps to a ridiculous conclusion. He gives no mention, whatsoever, to the power held over human behavior by it’s evolved, and unique sense of imagination. When you add that to the mix, it’s quite clear that human evolution *still works*, but the behavioral modifications that imagination can enact are having a profound influence on who reproduces. The poor reproduce more because they live in a world grounded in reality, their imagination does not rule them, their instincts (hunger first) rule their lives to a much greater degree. The… Read more »
@Rollo
“Quintus Curtius has truly done a number on Roosh. It’s kind of a shame.”
I think you give Quintus Curtius too much credit… this is either a very public meltdown or pure marketing genius… regardless of which, it’s all on Roosh.
At the end of the day, as @Jeremy pointed out, Roosh is just a sex tourist… smart, often insightful and a bit whack, but that’s about it.
all in chocolate – superb!
@Rollo,
Precisely that.
@Jeremy, what’s funny is that I was expecting some attempt at Roosh refuting evo-psych and academia, but he went off on bio-evolution.
Here I was collecting links to offer a counter to evo-psych denial. Again, wow.
Yeah well I had Roosh pegged after reading him the first time.
(pats hisself on the back)
I think what a lot of guys are looking for in both Blue Pill and Red Pill is some kind of Bumper to Bumper 100,000 mile warranty that will keep their marriage intact… There isn’t one. This is very true. If you’re trying to bullet-proof the marriage, your best bet is to put yourself in the demographic that has the lowest divorce rates, be firmly in that demographic, and follow what they do — namely, have an advanced degree, preferably a professional degree (each spouse), have rather high income (each spouse at least 150-200k), get married around 30 to someone… Read more »
Nova, you forgot one strategy, join the Amish! I hear their divorce rate is below 10%!
🙂
Listen, my old man was beta to the core outside of the house. But inside those walls, he was king. No negotiation!
Now for most it is one long negotiation and trust me, though women can be very clever, most of them hate this game!
Roosh will say and do whatever he needs to to keep the money flowing so that he can keep on “seducing” 3rd world 4’s.
Heheh, I’m sorry, but David Stove’s publications read like an anti-science hit parade:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=cm_cr_pr_pdt_bl_sr?ie=UTF8&field-keywords=David+C.+Stove
I don’t know, my money is still on Quintus and his penchant for “real man” LARPing as YaReally would say.
What I don’t understand is why the most adaptable species on the planet can so easily forget how important adaptability is in their daily lives, the future of their species, and their place in the universe.
insane, funny. “Actually Tomassi, it is not power in men that frightens women, but rather weakness.”
and is this not the foundation upon which game is based?
beta = weak
alfalfa = strong
“Hence the weaker, more submissive, more wounded you are, the more repulsive.” think I read this one at Chateau just last night.
🙂
@all_in_chocolate, Women are like water. They take the form of the container you put them in. Right now they are free to pick a new vessel for them to conform to at any time. The over choice is making them miserable. But they prefer it to accepting any risk of accidentally being tied down to a less optimal container. They are far too naval gazing and narcissistic to understand the consequences of their actions as men simply react. And it seems women are too self absorbed to accept the blame in changing our culture. I’ve spoken in depth to several… Read more »
When I read CaveClown’s OP, I was prompted to consider my firsts, and the women for whom I was first. My first, well, she didn’t believe I was a virgin, as she came before I even started. What can I say? Mom was sexually liberated, and I read the books she had stashed. You know, “did some homework”. She thought I was a greasy liar about the virgin thing, and split – never saw or heard from her again. (I know, now, how/where it went awry) Mmm… I still remember how awesome she smelled. 😀 So that’s that. But, the… Read more »
“Yeah, not so much…” Actually yes, Tomassi. The felons, thugs and assorted yahoos are often much safer for us to be around then the depressed and rage driven betas. Women also get broken and can easily get those attraction signals crossed, hence all the fan mail Ted Bundy used to get. Ironically it is often men that do not seem to recognize dominance in other men. Often your own pride is so offended by the idea of her chasing what you perceive to be as less worthy, that you weave elaborate theories around it to protect and defend your own… Read more »
As for Roosh, well …. I haven’t read every word of it (perhaps I will if I have more time this evening), but at first blush it appears that he has at least overlooked the reality that technology which permits the separation of sex and reproduction in a reliable way has opened new possibilities for human sexual expression in ways that are reliably not fecund, but that this, in and of itself, does not negate the underlying reasons for the sex drives which are being sated in this environment. That is, the sex drive is based on evolutionary factors which… Read more »
Wow that’s hilarious, do you raise children with that intellect?
@Strings
Thank you, that’s about the best refutation of Roosh’s post today yet.
“The 300 ladies in the Anders Breivik all-girl fan club disagree with you.”
Not at all. Ironically Vox Day recognized it too and wrote a fan post of his very own to Anders Breivik. Like many weak men however, he obviously confused dominance with destruction, as does VD and the women who chase Breivik. It’s easy to appear dominant on the outside, but to be pathertic, weak and broken on the inside.
Rollo – “The 300 ladies in the Anders Breivik all-girl fan club disagree with you.”
sorry dude, that’s the old exception proving the rule thing.
@insanitybytes, you wrote that women marry primarily for security and children, and divorce primarily due to contempt. I completely agree with you thus far. However, your description of contempt being due to learned helplessness is where I disagree with you. Contempt is a curious emotion – when we hold someone in contempt, we are simultaneously dismissive of them and also angry at them. We feel that the other person’s feelings are beneath our notice. Why would a woman be so dismissive of her husband? Because she believes her priorities are more mature/correct than his, and therefore that he should listen… Read more »
Insanity: “it is not power in men that frightens women, but rather weakness. Weak men tend to confuse dominance with destruction, dominion with annihilation. Those of us you call alpha chasers are actually seeking out the most masculine, most dominant men, because they are also the ones proven to be the least dangerous to us. “Hence the weaker, more submissive, more wounded you are, the more repulsive.” Essentially what you want is for the top, most attractive, most powerful, most dominant and violent 20% of men to marry and breed, and for the remaining 80% to go away and never… Read more »
DG, …a woman being a virgin is airtight protection from reality. It isn’t. In fact, there are a few guys in the ‘sphere who married virgins only to get bounced. The focus should be morality, not virginity specifically. Of course the past is no guarantee of the future with morality. Judas, anyone? DG, A woman is always a woman, no matter her N-count. Female nature is as inescapable as death and taxes. If a woman intends a natural number of children in the context of traditional marriage, her true “nature” makes her less likely to blow things up. The real… Read more »
OH, wow.
I just watched the Enjoli commercial again. The broad holds up a fist full of cash when the song says “bring home the bacon”. Money = Bacon?
This ties PERFECTLY into the “substitution of money for needs” dynamic I’ve been tripping on.
I also heard: ‘Ladies, have him buy you some Enjoli…”
Why? Don’t you have a fist full of bacon to buy your own with?
We’re all screwed ever since.
*insert pac-man dying sound here*
@Glen, We need to create strong male bonds so we can use our male friendships to find the fulfillment women promise but completely fail to deliver. I’ve known my oldest friend for 28 years. Women are afraid of our friendship and manginas have worked with them to shame us. Hearing about how we’re gay, as is the typical shaming tactic women have used to try to destroy our bond, is met with agree and amplify. His parents won’t stop trying to get him to marry and have kids. They are just too old to understand how feral women are. Women… Read more »
Roosh needs to read up on “red queen” theory before his next evolution piece.
The world seeks balance, the red queen theory explains how evolution is the mechanism to do that.
If you want to paint with a broad stroke, red queen also perfectly explains how the red pill and game came to be. Seeking balance against the evils of feminism, blue pill et al, and the apparent scourge that is birth control.
Me thinks I will stay away from the neomasculine flavored kool-aid.
“It’s a harsh truth but everytime you say, “You’re supposed to, You’re supposed to, You’re supposed to,” it’s like handing your own power away. If you try to wait for women to do what they’re supposed to do, hell will freeze over first.” _________ Straight from the horse’s mouth I – talking and reaching agreements with females is impossible. Everyone who did his homeworks knows that, but thanks for emphasizing it again. __________ “Weak men tend to confuse dominance with destruction, dominion with annihilation. Those of us you call alpha chasers are actually seeking out the most masculine, most dominant… Read more »
@stringofcoins
Women are a sorry replacement for male friendships, that’s for sure. It is exceptionally difficult to find men that share my point of views though. I assume most men have that problem?
Most men are blue pill and are searching for their soul mate, or have already found said soul mate and she won’t let him come out and play anymore… “I’ve gotta ask the boss”
Even the most alpha player I know (over 150 notches) pines for the “one that got away”
Would you believe it was his first notch that he pines over???? lol
And now for some side entertainment: insanity sock-puppeting as a male on Roosh’s comment thread:
http://www.rooshv.com/the-theory-of-evolution-does-not-apply-to-modern-human-beings#comment-2059910442
LMAO. Don’t let on Insanity. Roosh doesn’t take kindly to women on his forums.
Krum calls her out as a chick shortly after that comment.
“Case Closed” he says. Perfect.
Funny shit.
@CaveClown, I think I’m pretty lucky to have a few good guy friends that I can speak openly with. The blue pill men I know will literally become angry and posture violence if I even broach he subject that women shouldn’t be up on a twenty foot pedestal. Their conditioning is just too deeply ingrained. Us men need real male friendships to stay grounded. The last six months of my marriage my wife spent the entire time trying to isolate me completely from my male friends. The more power she gained the less happy she was though. I didn’t know… Read more »
@Glenn
I feel the exact same way. I didnt have any children but damn that last paragraph and the comment about treating them worse and them value you more is so tragically true. It all makes the quest for whats next that much harder. So now what? Is the exact same question Im struggling with.
“Women are a sorry replacement for male friendships, that’s for sure. It is exceptionally difficult to find men that share my point of views though. I assume most men have that problem?” Yep, thats why we need male spaces. As said, sympathy flows from adult Male to adult female to children. Females can’t feel any sympathy for males and they cannot even comprehend why males sympathizing and supporting other males. Male spaces also gives some respite from the incessant nagging done by females on males. When we males are in male space, it drives women crazy cause they cannot understand… Read more »
@New Yorker – Great POV, thanks. Could feel myself relaxing as I read the comment. @LongGone – Thanks man. @StringofCoins – Yeah, I have a half dozen good, close male friends that i speak with and hang with regularly. @All – Can we please try again to ignore the trolls here???!!! If Rollo is going to keep the site open to them, then we must simply not engage. That is the only way a troll will disappear. I will not engage, and I suggest you all do the same for the sake of this space. Don’t be baited by them,… Read more »
@Rollo.
http://www.businessinsider.com/isis-bans-teaching-evolution-in-iraqs-second-largest-city-2014-9.
And Oklahoma too and now poor Roosh.
Re: Identity As all_in_chocolate describes women have either no internal identity or a very weak vestigial identity and amongst their numerous needs is for a man to provide her with a true sense of self. The good ones seem to pull this off be enhancing the quality of the man, the bad ones simply scream “more!” and attack the man’s sense of self hoping, I charitably suspect, to get him to be a better identity for her. In the end its all about status! both externally validated and internally validated. Internally validated in that having a strong sense of self… Read more »
@thedeti ” In an odd kind of paradox, we’re supposed to sit on our own alleged uncontrollable hypergamy and be good girls for you.” “No. You’re supposed to recognize your hypergamous instincts and bring them to heel. You’re supposed to use those instincts to secure the best man for yourself for short term sexy and long term security. And then you’re supposed to be content with the choices you made and make the best of them. You’re supposed to lie in the beds you made for yourselves, for better or for worse, in sickness and in health, for richer or… Read more »
@BP Well put. “I spent a fair chunk of my life serving as a proxy for my mother’s identity.” Me too, and I see it with women I’ve been with since, and I see it with the woman I’m with now. Though, the woman I’m with now builds me up and supports me, which is very refreshing. “Mrs. Rearden”, and her proxy, Hank, from Atlas Shrugged comes to mind. It illustrates that parasitic identity basis quite well. I completely agree with your assessment of women’s personalities being a form of “fiat currency” in that her personal self-worth depends on external… Read more »
@Glenn
You’re right. My mistake.
@bodausafa – I figured it wasn’t just me. The Red Pill attracts very introspective men, and if you are an older guy who is divorced and alone, well the world looks quite different than it does for young guys or those in what appear to be reasonable marriages (I always have a doubt cuz so many marriages look like shit up close). But let me offer a hope. The word that comes up to describe how I feel is grief. I’ve suffered loss and grief before and know something about it. I decided to look up the 5 stages of… Read more »
As far as working hard goes, finding that motivation, you shouldn’t even bother. Work just hard enough to keep yourself secure but not hard enough that you don’t have enough free time to focus on your pick up skills, working out, cooking healthy meals, and running a constant stream of game on multiple women. You can’t stop running game anyway as women are too dense to understand the sheer effort involved in picking them up. To them it just “happens”. They just relax and enjoy the ride. They never think about how the ride was created or the maintainence. Or… Read more »