Changing Your Programming

tilting_at_windmills

Changing Your Programming

I mentioned in the first book that I am not a motivational speaker.

I’m not anyone’s savior and I would rather men be their own self-sustaining solutions to becoming the men they want and need to be – not a Rollo Tomassi success story, but their own success stories.

That said, let me also add that I would not be writing what I do if I thought that biological determinism, circumstance and social conditioning were insurmountable factors in any Man’s life. Men can accomplish great things through acts of will and determination. God willing, they can be masters of those circumstances and most importantly masters of themselves.

With a healthy understanding, respect and awareness of what influences his own condition, a Man can overcome and thrive within the context of them – but he must first be aware of, and accepting of, the conditions in which he operates and maneuvers.

You may not be able to control the actions of others, you may not be able to account for women’s Hypergamy, but you can be prepared for them, you can protect yourself from the consequences of them and you can be ready to make educated decisions of your own based upon that knowledge.

You can unplug.

You can change your programming, and you can live a better life no matter your demographic, age, past regrets or present circumstances.

These are the last words from The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine. I wrote something similar in the first book too, but I’m quoting them here because they are just as important now as they were when I was writing them then. I’m not now nor have I ever been interested in creating a cult of Rollo. I’m not interested in creating better men, I’m interested in those men making themselves better men.

Descriptions and Prescriptions

You’ll have to forgive me, I wrote this part about a year ago, but I think it’s still relevant now. In part 4 of Preventative Medicine a commenter (who, for the record is not an InCel by any stretch) asked me why I had no real prescriptive plan for men to follow with regards to ‘preventing’ or avoiding the bad decisions associated with the time line I laid out in that series. This was my response:

Imagine for a moment I had the temerity to presume that I know exactly what a 60 year old reader experiences in his personal life with a post-menopausal wife. I could take a good stab at it, but anything specific I could prescribe for him would be based on my best-guess speculations and according to how I’ve observed and detailed things in this series or any of my past posts.

From my earliest posts at SoSuave (in 2004) I’ve had men ask me for some ‘medicine’ for their condition; some personalized plan that will work for them. This sentiment is exactly what makes PUA and manosphere ‘self-help’ speakers sell DVDs and seats at seminars. They claim to have the cure. I say that’s bullshit.

I’m not in the business of cures, I’m in the business of diagnoses. Imagine a PUA guru attempting to force fit their plans to accommodate that 60 year old man’s situation. Athol Kay makes attempts to remedy married men’s (non) sex lives, but what’s his real success rate? Is it even measurable? Even Athol recognizes that his MMSL outline is just a map, a diagnosis, that men have to modify for themselves per their individual experience and demographic. You see, your cure, your plan of action isn’t what another man’s will be, or your future son’s, or anyone else reading my work. I can give you a map, but you still have to make your own trail. I’m not a savior, you are your savior

Short version: I’m not interested in making men be better men, I’m interested in men making themselves better Men.

What’s more legitimate, my prescribing some course or template to follow that leads a man to a success that ultimately I define for a reader, or my laying out an accurate landscape for his better understanding and he creates his own success with it?

Are you your success or my success? I’d rather a Man be his own.

Most men already suspect they know what the keys are, and most even know how to use them, but what they really want is confirmation that they actually have the keys.

My approach to Game is defined in much broader terms than simply ‘how to get girls’, and I think for the better part of the manosphere the understanding of Game has evolved beyond rote memorization of scripts and plans. It’s gotten to a stage where even the most enthusiastic proponents of PUA techniques acknowledge a need for an individualized approach to relating and interacting with women based on a broader applied understanding of feminine psychology, sociology and the particular conditions that apply to themselves as well as the women they’re interacting with.

It’s been noted before, my approach to Game / Red Pill awareness is descriptive, not prescriptive.

I’m humbled by the men who email me and let me know how something I’ve written or shined a light on for them has saved them from suicide or some particular hell they would’ve endured longer in. For the most part though I get email and comments from men who tell me that they have built better lives for themselves because a Red Pill awareness made their situations more intelligible. I don’t sell a program or a prescription because each man’s circumstance is different, his acculturation is different, his ethnicity, society, upbringing, body composition and mental faculties are all different.

But we are all men. If the Red Pill is anything it’s a consortium of men who relate their individual experiences about women, about themselves and about their circumstances in what’s now become a feminine-primary social order. As I’ve stated in the past, I’m humbled and flattered to be considered one of the pillars of Red Pill awareness, but most of what I write is the result of piecing together the related experiences of other men.

I didn’t create the Red Pill, I just describe that awareness in terms I think are intelligible. I connect dots, but much of those dots are presented to me by a collective of men who’ve had common experiences. If those dots don’t follow, if those dots would be better connected in another way, I expect the Men who make up Red Pill awareness to offer their new ideas in an open exchange, in a marketplace of ideas.

Sometimes that marketplace gets weighed down with disingenuous critics, trolls and attention seekers, but this is the price, I believe, is necessary to distill and test the strength of those ideas. Only in a crucible of open debate where all are encouraged to participate can those ideas be sussed out.

Men with questions don’t frighten me; men with no questions do.

Law 18: Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself— Isolation is Dangerous
The world is dangerous and enemies are everywhere— everyone has to protect themselves. A fortress seems the safest. But isolation exposes you to more dangers than it protects you from-it cuts you off from valuable information, it makes you conspicuous and an easy target. Better to circulate among people, find allies, mingle. You are shielded from your enemies by the crowd.

From Nursing Power:

A handful of my male readers often ask why I don’t moderate comments, or that the message of Rational Male would be better served if I banned certain commenters. I’ve mentioned on several posts and threads as to why I won’t ever do that (except for blatant spamming), but in a nutshell it’s my fundamental belief that the validity of any premise or idea should be able to withstand public debate. People who aren’t confident of the strength of their assertions or ideas, or are more concerned with profiting from the branding of those weak assertions than they are in truth, are the first to cry about the harshness of their critics and kill all dissent as well as all discourse about those assertions.

That’s the primary reason I’ve never moderated; if people think I’m full of shit I’m all ears – I’m not so arrogant as to think I’ve thought of every angle about any idea I express here or on any other forum. However, the second reason I don’t censor, ban users or delete comments is that I believe it’s useful to have critics (usually women or fem-men) provide the gallery with examples of exactly the mentality or dynamic I’m describing in an essay. With a fair amount of predictability, a blue pill male or an upset woman will just as often prove my point for me and serve as a model for what I’ve described.

I never intentionally try to make rubes out of the critics I know will chime in about something, but I will sometimes leave out certain considerations I may have already thought about something, knowing it will get picked up on by a critic. I do this on occasion because the I know that the “ah hah! I got him, he forgot about X,Y, Z” moment serves as a better teaching tool and confirms for me that a critic does in fact comprehend what I’m going on about.

Last week Roosh came out against the various tribes of Game such as it is. While I understand his intent I must disagree with his methods. A couple of weeks ago I got into a bit of political discourse with regard to how the Feminine Imperative and how Hypergamy influences social dynamics. That post generated a lot of conversation, but from it I made this statement:

It’s my opinion that red pill awareness needs to remain fundamentally apolitical, non-racial and non-religious because the moment the Red Pill is associated with any social or religious movement, you co-brand it with an ideology, and the validity of it will be written off along with any preconceptions associated with that specific ideology.

Furthermore, any co-branding will still be violently disowned by whatever ideology it’s paired with because the Feminine Imperative has already co-opted and trumps the fundaments of that ideology. The fundamental truth is that the manosphere, pro-masculine thought, Red Pill awareness or its issues are an entity of its own.

As most of my readers know I have a great deal of respect for Roosh and I still do. Nothng is going to change that. I think time will tell what direction his push for Neomasculine philosophy truly goes in. As far as what he’s describing in that “new” doctrine there’s not much I disagree with. I’ll take issue with his anti-evolution, anti-evo psych stance. I’ll take issue with his want for some as yet undefined moralism; and not because I don’t think morality or reverence to a higher power shouldn’t be part of it, but rather because it pollutes and distorts open discourse.

I’m not an atheist, anyone who’s read my commentary on Dalrock’s site knows this. That said I don’t think there is a substitute for critical inquiry, and when that is stifled, that’s when we lean over into dogma.

From Moral to the Manosphere:

Putting angel’s or devil’s wings on observations hinders real understanding.

I say that not because I don’t think morality is important in the human experience, but because our interpretations of morality and justice are substantially influenced by the animalistic sides of our natures, and often more than we’re willing to admit to ourselves. Disassociating one’s self from an emotional reaction is difficult enough, but adding layers of moralism to an issue only convolutes a better grasp of breaking it down into its constituent parts. That said, I also understand that emotion and, by degree, a sense of moralism is also characteristic of the human experience, so there needs to be an accounting of this into interpretations of issues that are as complex as the ones debated in the manosphere.

Although I’m aware that observing a process will change it, it’s my practice  not to draw moralistic conclusions in any analysis I make because it adds bias where none is necessary. The problem is that what I (and others in the manosphere) propose is so raw it offends ego-invested sensibilities in people. Offense is really not my intent, but often enough it’s the expected result of dissecting cherished beliefs that seem to contribute to the well being of an individual.

There was a time I sat in a behavioral psychology class back in college. Behaviorism appealed to me because it was very nuts & bolts, not at all like the touchy-feely humanist schools of psychology. Behavior is the only reliable proof of motive. It was cause and effect, modify variables, and watch for behavior.

At one point I began to see that women are masters of operant conditioning – they had the natural reward 99% of men want, sex. Men’s behavior could be modified just by the prospect of sex, and they could also be influenced by negative reinforcement and punishment. It was one thing to make these observation, but quite another to express them in the classroom. Many of the more intelligent minds I dealt with then would adamantly refuse to recognize the truths that operant conditioning played. After I thought about it I understood that they were likewise motivated to deny what I thought was right in front of their faces.

I had connected some uncomfortable dots; dots that had the potential of making a man less desirable for having connected them. This was really the beginning of many more uncomfortable connections I would make later.

Roosh has tried to make a case that the Red Pill community (subred) has now reached critical mass. He sees it as inbred; a community of complainers – and in some instances I can understand that. Debate can often sound like complaining. However, what I get from Roosh now is a need for answers, it seems to me he’s looking for a plan of action. He wants something prescriptive for himself and other men to follow on with. I get it.

He’s still included Red Pill truths as being an important part of his new doctrine and I’d respect him for that, if not for the wholesale disownment of the consortium that’s been the testbed for those truths for so long. As I stated above, I think Neomasculinity may have some merit, I don’t disagree with about 90% of the manifesto Roosh went to great effort to put together. What I disagree with is how he’s initiated all of this. He does no favors to himself with casual dismissals of principles he knows are deeper than he wants to give credit to – in fact most are principles he influenced personally.

As for my part, I’m going to keep doing what I do and that’s making men aware of the world that’s been pulled over their eyes. I will likely have some strong disagreement with Roosh in the future, but as I’m fond of saying unplugging men from the matrix is dirty work. We’re both in the same family, and sometimes brothers will fight, and that’s OK.

I disagree with him that the Red Pill will cease to go on. It may be called something else, but it’s been around before he or I started writing about it. The “Red Pill”, like many other terms, is an abstraction; a place holder for an idea. Don’t like the Matrix movie references? Fine, but the truth is the truth and freely expressed ideas need words to describe them.

Maybe Neomasculinity is the prescription you need, but from what I can gather so far it’s a movement based on exclusion; not inclusion, not on a free exchange of ideas. Maybe the christianized Red Pill of Donalgraeme or Dalrock is a better prescription for you. Maybe you need the inspiration of a guy like Victor Pride and a better outlook on your physique.

Or maybe all you need is a truth and an awareness to help you lift yourself up. Yes, Red Pill awareness can be very depressing in the beginning, I’ve written several posts and book chapters dedicated to helping men come to terms with that, but ultimately it will be that awareness that becomes the catalyst for changing his life.

The Red Pill isn’t one size fits all, you have to tailor your own life with what it shows you.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

1,375 comments on “Changing Your Programming

  1. @ Sun Wukong
    @ Bluepillprofessor

    I hear what you guy are saying but I disagree. Motherhood is key to the female experience.

    Alpha Fucks = Get the genes
    Beta Bucks = Assemble the resources
    Motherhood = Raise the baby

    For them it’s all part of the same story. As men we are instinctively focused on the first thirty minutes of the story. After that it’s not particularly interesting. That’s not true for women and this has a big impact on their behavior.

    My oldest son is in 8th grade and my wife is already talking about grandkids. They love that stuff. I just scratch my head.

  2. @Sun Wukong:

    I am one of those poor, dumb schlubs Rollo mentioned a couple of articles ago, who, attracting attractive women without any particular effort on my part, wifed one up. Even so, as a natural man going his own way, I didn’t do so entirely without care. I assured myself that she was a unicorn first.

    Guess what I learned?

    Horns are not decorative.

  3. @zdr01dz: “For them it’s all part of the same story.”

    Which is precisely why your separation of them does not even parse logically.

  4. @ Bluepillprofessor
    @ Sun Wukong
    However, what you miss is that Red Pill is about sexual strategy. Alpha Fucks is a sexual strategy. Beta Bucks is a Sexual strategy.

    You do realize that as a male you’re focused on the sex aspect of the story and after that everything goes dark… right? That’s because you have male instincts.

    It’s the reason the the man-o-sphere churns out 100 threads a day that explain how women think and behave and not a single one is focused on motherhood. Let that sink in for a minute.

  5. I was wondering how long it would take for an FI approved version of the red pill to make its appearance, Roosh just demonstrated not as long as I thought.

    I don’t begrudge Roosh, he was obviously an easy target, reasonably intelligent, dissolutioned, socially isolated, economically impoverished, poor with the ladies and no life trajectory.

    You’ve got to give the Equalitarianists some credit, they know how to pick and groom their targets. His coming out of the fold was impressive, Dr Oz and Info Wars no less, impressive stage managed theatre. First prove your allegiance by accepting humiliation (Dr. Oz) with an abject performance and then acceptance into the fold of controlled opposition (Info Wars). I’m sure he’ll be happy with the scraps they’ll throw his way.

    I wonder if Roosh will teach PUA to all those Chinese and Russian soldiers that according to Alex Jones have been hiding in the US for the past decade preparing an invasion?

    All the world is a stage….

    Going on I think the litmus test for the manosphere and sifting the wheat from the chaff will be MGTOW, while not an ideal strategy for the small minority it is an option nonetheless.

    For some peculiar reason the liberals have a deep aversion to MGTOW, the history of Anti Clericalism and the Dissolution of the Monasteries attest to their aversion to this life choice.

  6. Does suicide prove that men have a weak instinct for self preservation?

    Actually yes. Men’s vastly higher suicide rate is in fact one reflection of a weak(er) instinct for self-preservation.

    Example: How many women threw themselves instinctively across men to save them from the bullets shot by James Holmes in a dark Aurora CO. theater? None, but this was exactly the reflex action men took in that situation and in more than 2 instances they took a bullet for women they didn’t know.

    On a limbic, psychological-firmware level, men have a base understanding that they are the disposable sex. The fact that it is historically men who die in war should be ample evidence of that.

    When men’s biological imperatives are thwarted by women’s Hypergamy and/or the idealistic hope that their genetic legacy has either been a sham or they have it wrenched away from them, yes, suicide is most definitely an indicator of a lesser predilection for self-preservation.

    Droid, you should really review Your Friend Menstruation and Estrus again. The provable dynamic of ovulatory shift behaviors in women will show you that Hypergamy and AFBB are the biological (not sociological) underpinnings of your definition of a motherhood instinct.

    But I get what you’re trying to do. I know Roosh will include some contradicting diatribe about how those Red Pill guys cling to a false Alpha / Beta dichotomy too rigidly. I’ll be interested to see how Vox takes that, considering he’s written the book with regard to the various classifications of Alpha to Sigma to Omega.

    I’ll also be interested to see how Roosh dances around the realities of ovulatory shift, realities he’s well aware of and has written about in the past.

    Re: The owl. I have rescued, fostered, retrained and reconditioned injured (sometimes gravely) racing greyhounds for almost 10 years. I’ve devoted countless hours and money I’m almost embarrassed to admit to on my greys. Compassion for animals is not some exclusive domain for women. Neither is it any kind of indicator of a some mothering instinct unique to women.

  7. As men we are instinctively focused on the first thirty minutes of the story. After that it’s not particularly interesting. That’s not true for women and this has a big impact on their behavior.

    I’ll be sure to remind you of this the next time a distraught husband kills himself after being served the divorce papers his wife is 70% more likely than he is to draw up.

  8. @ Rollo Tomassi

    But I get what you’re trying to do. I know Roosh will include some contradicting diatribe about how those Red Pill guys cling to a false Alpha / Beta dichotomy too rigidly. I’ll be interested to see how Vox takes that, considering he’s written the book with regard to the various classifications of Alpha to Sigma to Omega.

    You’re taking this personal, I’m not trying to do anything. I’m arguing my point because that’s what I like to do. I don’t know Roosh.

  9. @ Rollo Tomassi
    The owl. I have rescued, fostered, retrained and reconditioned injured (sometimes gravely) racing greyhounds for almost 10 years. I’ve devoted countless hours and money I’m almost embarrassed to admit to on my greys. Compassion for animals is not some exclusive domain for women. Neither is it any kind of indicator of a some mothering instinct unique to women.

    I’m a softy. I save bugs. But we aren’t the same as women.

    Your argument is similar to a feminist saying that women have the same sex drive as men because they like sex too. We would laugh at that. Sure there is some crossover but It’s obviously different.

  10. That’s not true for women and this has a big impact on their behavior.

    You know what has a bigger impact on their behavior? The Alpha Widow dynamic. I’m sure you’ll say they’re just low quality women, but try explaining that to a guy who’s lost his kids in divorce because his wife was sold on the Eat, Pray Love divorce porn fantasy that “she could do (and had) done so much better than him.”

    My oldest son is in 8th grade and my wife is already talking about grandkids. They love that stuff. I just scratch my head.

    I understand it’s very hard to accept that your wife and mother of your child is just as subject to Hypergamy now as before you had your kid. You want to white knight for motherhood in some hope that you’ll be exempt from it. It’s much easier to sleep at night thinking you’re insulated from Hypergamy by the relational equity you’ve built up with her and the hope her motherhood instinct will override the Alpha Fucks side of it.

    I understand that because it’s the first thing I get accused of being naive to when people question my very good 19 year marriage. Marriage, monogamy and some pollyanna hope about a motherhood instinct are no insulation against Hypergamy. You can’t leave the Game Droid.

  11. “The man-o-sphere did churn out two sentences on baby rabies.”

    Protip: Doubling down on displays of profound ignorance is not pretty.

  12. @zdr01dz

    Women… care for wounded soldiers.

    This is the second time I have seen you make this claim. Are you a servicemember or veteran? Military wives/girlfriends are usually among the best examples of hypergamy gone wild. They suck their men dry while constantly cheating and looking for the next branch to swing on, and they sure as hell don’t stick around when their man is wounded or suffering from PTSD. I doubt we’ll ever see an honest study on the subject because of how ugly the results would be, but I promise you that trouble with the women in their lives is a primary driving force behind the 22 veteran suicides that happen every day.

    1. @Droid
      “You can’t leave the Game Droid.”
      You know even as a I grew up and witnessed hard disturbing truths. I wouldn’t find a place to speak about it. Many of the women in my life have exihibited hypergamy while criticism from male game was always attacked.
      I took care of animals.
      I stayed around dogs… Dogs could pick up the intention of women especially my sister.
      Being a mother can do good with the rigth resources. But I have lived with the hypo sexual violence mothers with unfit biological needs will exhibit in order to get their needs meet.
      Women’s attraction is not logical.
      People in my family made a point to humiliate me for pointing that out.
      So I stoped. I found here.
      You seem to provide a luxury for this mothering you talk about in an environment you control or at least think you control.
      I survived by thinking I could remove myself from the game and now I am far more behind than most everyone an this blog.
      Even if you want to think your not playing its playing you.

  13. As per my earlier comment on women wanting babies to be loved, not give love:

    “Women crave for being loved, not for loving.” – Florence Nightingale; who did not have a very high opinion of the way women cared for wounded soldiers.

  14. Glenn
    May 26th, 2015 at 10:46 am

    My take on Alex Jones is that he provides “conspiracy theory” cover for what is actually going on. Lyndon Larouche is another. His bit about “the Queen of England sells dope” was an excellent cover for who is actually doing the selling and control. Here is how you can tell a coverup artist from some one who has real information. Alex Jones is making a nice living. Catherine Austin Fitts was bankrupted.

    The trick is to provide just enough truth so that anyone who goes in the direction of that truth is labeled a “conspiracy nut” and the truth is not examined. Or if you do study and say something roughly along the lines of LaRouche you are labeled a conspiracy nut.

    Blue Pill/FI is acceptable thought. RP is misogyny

  15. ctt2
    May 27th, 2015 at 12:45 am

    I was a Nuke ET. I saw all that first hand. Never cared to get involved. In fact during my Navy years I only got laid twice. Both times by whores I was more or less tricked into screwing so they could extract cash from me. Very unsatisfying. I generally avoided whores and military wives.

    I did make a friend of a bar girl in the Philippines. We corresponded for years after I got out. Never screwed her. But I did get invited to her hooch to meet her GFs. I was told that was a rare honor.

  16. @ Rollo Tomassi

    You want to white knight for motherhood in some hope that you’ll be exempt from it.

    I’m not white knighting for motherhood. I’m saying that motherhood instincts are strong and they are separate from Beta Bucks. BB is extractive, motherhood is care based. This knowledge should offer increased predictive power in regards to female behavior.

    That’s all I’m saying.

  17. I avoided serious relationships like the plague while I was in. Despite the blue pill conditioning of my early years I still had good instincts and was able to learn from the mistakes of others. I’m not exaggerating when I say I didn’t know even one happily married sailor.

  18. @ Rollo Tomassi

    The owl. I have rescued, fostered, retrained and reconditioned injured (sometimes gravely) racing greyhounds for almost 10 years. I’ve devoted countless hours and money I’m almost embarrassed to admit to on my greys. Compassion for animals is not some exclusive domain for women. Neither is it any kind of indicator of a some mothering instinct unique to women.

    (punch to the shoulder) C’mon! You tried that weak equalist crap in your own forum? Show some pride good sir. 😎

  19. While I agree with others here in doubting the usefulness of Zdroids maternalistic drive, I think it’s an interesting idea. I find it amusing to see people react to new ideas as if they were threatening. Not everyone here of course, but enough have to make me wonder. Ideas like that are a good way to explore and may, down the road, bear some fruit. Or not. For example it made me think about how the paternalistic drive plays into BB behavior. Which is something I rarely give much thought to.
    TRP is interesting because at first its eye opening and a bit bitter, but where I’ve been going with it lately is- boredom. After the taste rinses out of your mouth, and the anger subsides it just becomes a background feature of life. Like the OS on your computer, at first it dazzles learning your away around what it can do and then eventually you just get to work getting stuff done. Its just the platform on which you do your thing.
    Rollo is great at finding interesting takes on stuff, but how long before the rants about AF/BB, hypergamy etc before you just start to move on?
    I’ve been feeling that way lately and it’s not intended as an insult to anyone, but its like TRP is a map that replaces an outdated and useless BP map of reality. At first it enraging because you find destinations and routes not even listed on the BP map, things you never even knew existed. It’s also bitter because you find that you were walking in circles when the BP map was telling you you were walking in a straight line.. you find you may be much farther from your destination than you ever thought. You think you’ve got one more hill to climb to get home and then you find your clear across the country headed in the opposite direction.
    So I’m in a phase right now where the RP kind of runs in the background and informs my day. And I choose the word inform deliberately. RP informs, not dictates. Probably why I like Rollos descriptive, not prescriptive approach. All other PUAs/RP writers I read eventually loses me with the endless “do this or be that” bullshit. fuck off, give me tools, I’ll build what I want.
    So I appreciate zdroids idea. it’s refreshing.

  20. Also in regards to the Droid discussion, a woman’s mothering or giving instinct comes out when she is trying to lock down an alpha. Women will go to great extents to please an alpha, they will start folding your clothes, doing your dishes, etc. The extreme of this is when women will put themselves on the streets for the affections of a pimp. I’ll leave it to Rollo to decide how this piece of information fits into the puzzle.

  21. Vulpine
    May 26th, 2015 at 6:15 pm

    I have advised my boys, “Don’t go for one, get two.” That strategy is very sound. I was not able to pull it off for as long as I would have liked. But it worked better than any other period in my LTR.

    Second best is lots of imaginary GFs if you can make them real enough in her mind. Dread game. Also good is making her taste the other on you if you can’t get other to come home and meet the LTR. “What IS that taste?” Music to my ears. And more tasty was explaining and giving some graphic details. Always good to hear LTR say TMI.

    Never get stuck on one. That is death/divorce. And other than the financial rape, divorce is not so bad as an idea. Never tried it myself. Except in the various STRs I had. It IS emotionally wrenching. And the very worst is the first time. After that it gets easier.

    But as I enjoyed getting emotionally involved the wrenching was worth it.

  22. ctt2
    May 27th, 2015 at 1:51 am

    I knew one. He and his wife understood sex. They were screwing all the time. The wife even made some attempts to get me hooked up. Nothing worked until I got out. I was RPed at 18 by my 1st GF so it was happy hunting ground when I got out.

  23. I think that introducing women’s motherly or nutureing nature relative to their hypergamous sexual strategy of AFBB is bordering on context dropping.

    Perhaps an attempt to undermine the very idea.

    No more than a father who wants to protect and provide for his children doesn’t necessarily mean that he is willing to abandon his. (The pursuit of youth and beauty for sexual pleasure, possibly with someone who is not the mother of his children – polygamy.)

    The idea that the single mom who unconditionally loves her child, doesn’t get a free pass when she is fucking her latest alpha and rushes to his side in the middle of the night to console. The damage is being done.

    It makes her human, but it doesn’t make her virtues.

    It is not men’s sexually strategy that lack social scrutiny.

    Do you think the disfunction of the ghetto as a result of the destruction of the nuclear family is not consequential. It looms large as to the latent effects where the burden upon us all continues to grow.

    At the end of the day no boy of a single mother wants to hear a stranger banging on his mom in the middle of the night.

  24. So does this motherhood trait hold any benefit to a man that is dealing with a woman that is not his own mother? I think at best recognition of such only serves as reminder of how tenuous his position in her list of priorities. Even if a man is high on woman’s list it may well be he is a priority for control and manipulation to ensure he serves her needs first.

    I would argue the same prioritization of need may also place children in the service of mother rather than a default to the genuine needs of the children. Hint: this is why Mom doesn’t like being publically embarrassed by her children’s behavior, it jeapordizes HER sense of identity.

    I guess I’d see it as a trait that should men should be cautiously aware of, and not a hopeful sign.

  25. I did not read all of the comments. I don’t know much about Game or AF/BB et cetera. But when I noticed zdr01dz ‘s comments about “motherhood” I felt obliged to post my thoughts.

    “Motherhood” is a completely self-centered concept. It is not about giving. It’s about making children emotionally dependent on their mothers by means of extreme smothering, domination, contradictory instructions and oftentimes violence.

    Women DEPEND on their children for two reasons:

    -They NEED love and validation from their children.
    -More importantly, women use emotionally dependent children as hostages / human shields who ensure that they comfortably live off their husband’s means as a “caretaker” instead of working for themselves.

    But that’s not all. I believe mothers are potentially responsible for MOST of the conflict in human history.

    They raise their girls to be ashamed of their bodies and cover up, because they don’t want competition from younger beauty. Not to mention they are primarily responsible for female genital mutilation in poorer countries for similar reasons.

    They shame their boys into working hard and becoming high achievers only to be taken by anohter parasite and perpetuate this cycle. But they don’t really care about about shaming them into covering up, as if male bodies are merely utilitarian tools which don’t deserve sexual admiration.

    There is only ONE mammal species in which offspring die to protect their mothers. Guess which one that is. Women DEPRIVE their sons of self love and honor, so that they feel the need to “prove” their honor by shedding their own and other men’s blood in pointless wars.

    Mothers are responsible for juvenile violence over stupid “fuck your mom” insults. They program their boys into believing that mothers are infallible deities who can do no wrong and must not be disrespected.

    I would even go as far as to say women / mothers are responsible for pedophilia.They adopt childish, helpless, emotionally immature attitudes to arouse the protective instincts of men (meant for the benefit of CHILDREN, not women) while simultaneously sending sexual / seductive signals. Is it any wonder some men conflate the both and end up being sexually aroused by children?

    Women control the whole society. Mothers are the primary programmers of children by virtue of first access. As the blogger below aptly puts it, men don’t give birth. I invite you to read his articles.

    http://religionconfidencetrick.blogspot.com.tr/2014/06/more-representative-of-mothers-than.html

    http://religionconfidencetrick.blogspot.com.tr/2014/10/mammal-mother.html

    http://religionconfidencetrick.blogspot.com.tr/2013/05/love-needs.html

  26. An additional response to dr01dz:

    Both men and women are capable of caretaking, compassion, raising children and taking care of animals. If fact, single fathers are immeasurably better at raising their kids than single mothers.

    There’s nothing special about “motherhood” that makes it superior to or distinct from fatherhood.

    “You do realize that as a male you’re focused on the sex aspect of the story and after that everything goes dark… right? That’s because you have male instincts.”

    As if men are shallow, vapid beasts who can’t think beyond their carnal desires. Men have more emotional and intellectual depth than women could possibly comprehend.

    Throwing vague phrases like male / female / motherhood instincts doesn’t add anything of value to the discussion.

  27. @Vulpine & Yareally – Your contributions are so great because they are not esoteric but rather given by your real lives and experiences. I got so much out of both your comments.

    I think that where u r in your life when u get here is quite important. At 50, I had long internalized the ideas of romantic love and chivalry etc. meaning this was how I valued myself. But what I didn’t see initially is how badly damaged I had become. After 2 + years of work I’m only now getting how much I’d actually given up on ever being happy or enjoying my life. My dreams were dead – and it happened slowly like the proverbial boiled frog.

    As I penetrate these belief systems with much less rage, what I’ve also realized is that I’d become quite good at kidding myself. I pretend to be ambitious I pretend to have goals but really all I’ve been doing is surviving. I had no way “back” to that 22 yr old glenn who was like a fighter jet on afterburners, unreasonable in all my beliefs about what was possible for me and eager to do whatever it took to get what I thought I wanted.

    The pretense built up inside of me until I really was a complete fraud, to myself most of all. The plain truth is that I’ve been drowning in grief and regret and sadness, but pretending I was still that bright young shiny guy. So now I’m face to face with Glenn’s profound despair. And I have a choice, but the truth also is that I’m unmoored and adrift with it all. I’m so used to getting kicked in the balls by life that curling up in a ball seems the best solution. I am brave. I am tough and I’m sure as shit a fighter. But I have to find the next thing, and Vulpine and Yarealy describe that process very well. Just remember, at 52 it’s quite a different journey.

    @BluepillProf – I’m truly less angry than I’ve been in years. But I also have no tolerance for cunts anywhere but my work life. I have to play ball with mental midgets like Insanity in the work world, with ther pseudo intellectual preening and hectoring and endless self-absorption, but nowhere else do I tolerate it. Especially here. She’s worse than the most rabid feminist as she poses as a critic of feminism and a friend of men. Lol, fuck her in her deluded ass. If she wants to come here spraying her hatred – and that’s what she does – I will dress her down accordingly. But know that she rents no space in my head. I don’t think about her for more than the time it takes to cut her down to size here.

    Have a great day guys.

  28. Reading the comments and back and forth from zdro1dz is making the red pill in the comments section sound like it’s RU486….a fucking abortion.

    For you newbies and lurkers lest you let his hamstering set you back in your growth:

    Commenter zdro1dz has given a few clues as to why he is rationalizing, hamstering, and committing the female sin of cherrypicking (and selection bias). He’s invested, both in time, money, and emotion to the blue pill.

    His deep desire to avoid dealing with the reality of his wife’s feral nature (and 100% willingness to stray given the right triggers, they ALL will) has caused him to search and reinforce this weird “mothering” instinct that somehow now flies in the face of not just observable realities, but runs counter to the reproducible success of shall we say “more skilled” commenters (and our host) here.

    In fact, he probably noticed some indication of her ferality that sent him here, and its terrifying him.

    It’s sad, and predictable, and I’ll caution the newbie to tread carefully before you embark on the path of the red pill. It will destroy your preconceptions and often, like zdro1dz it’s sometimes better to just live in the delusion and pick being happy over being right.

    Of course she WILL fuck the biker, but hopefully she does it discretely and you don’t find out.

  29. Seems to me that discretion, in many cases, is not exercised.

    Perhaps that’s why little Johnny has a gun and crack pipe instead of a briefcase.

  30. “Commenter zdro1dz has given a few clues as to why he is rationalizing, hamstering, and committing the female sin of cherrypicking (and selection bias). He’s invested, both in time, money, and emotion to the blue pill.”

    Bing! Bing! Bing!

    Although one has to leave open the possibility Droidz is a woman posing. Something about the constant referral to women caring for animals seems…off.

    He/she also seems to LOVE anecdotal evidence for his proof, but when presented with more general information refuting his claims of inherent, natural, dominant motherhood instincts, he ignores it.

    Ie, Droidz never addressed the brutal, feral nature of female animals, including primates, which allow their children to be killed when a new Alpha takes charge of a group.

    Watch this:

    [youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB81Q3_Xs64&w=420&h=315%5D

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB81Q3_Xs64

    As the new Alpha Lion runs around, killing perfectly healthy cubs, watch how the female lions RACE in to protect their children…

    Any minute now…

    Any minute…oooh…one down…

    Well, certainly, after hearing the screams of the first cub killed, they will be moved to action to ferociously protect-

    Yeeeshh!

    Uhmm.

    Any second they’ll be here…there are always more females than males. They could easily take on this prick, and there is still one cub left…

    …Oh, God…

    Mom? Where are you?

    Oh, there she is…getting fucked by the Alpha, implanting his seed, the other females waiting in line.

    New cubs, coming right up!

    ****

    Let’s me clarify for you, Droidz.

    I am NOT saying that there is NOT an inherent motherhood instinct in most animals, including humans.

    What I am saying is you are asserting it is dominant and overwhelmingly overrides other basic instincts in females, that we should assume it is the default behavior for most women.

    One, there is plenty of evidence that it is not, particularly in modern society.

    Two, if motherhood is considered ‘caregiving’ with no immediate benefits, then claiming it is solely or predominantly a trait of women is false. You even go so far to claim that for men as a whole, after they blow their load, nothing else which happens after that matters to them.

    “You do realize that as a male you’re focused on the sex aspect of the story and after that everything goes dark… right? That’s because you have male instincts.”

    Is that your experience as a father? Right after you came, your kid no longer mattered to you? Or are you a special little snowflake that cares for their kid while the rest of us male barbarians are neglecting them? You were the rare breed of man who actually wanted kids, while the rest of turned around one day, saw these little people who looked like us running around, and said, “Where the fuck did they come from?”

    This is why I tend to think of Droidz as a female…I have a hard time thinking that a man which regurgitate this nonsense, but then maybe I have been exposed to Red Pill for too long. I don’t know.

  31. @ phantom26d

    Both men and women are capable of caretaking, compassion, raising children and taking care of animals. If fact, single fathers are immeasurably better at raising their kids than single mothers. There’s nothing special about “motherhood” that makes it superior to or distinct from fatherhood.

    Do you realize you’re arguing in favor of feminist equalism in an RM thread? Why don’t you give Anita Sarkeesian a foot rub while you’re at it?

  32. @ Seraph
    I am NOT saying that there is NOT an inherent motherhood instinct in most animals, including humans.

    I’m glad to hear we are in agreement. You can use that knowledge to better predict female behavior.

  33. @zdr01dz

    “Do you realize you’re arguing in favor of feminist equalism in an RM thread?”

    Either that’s a lie or you need to work on your logical reasoning. Claiming that both sexes can do x, y, z doesn’t make them equal. Me and presumably all the regulars around here are well aware of biological differences of the sexes. Quit this “equalism” nonsense.

  34. Two thoughts on maternal nature:

    1) why do girls who are all super maternal over a 3-legged puppy walking past the local homeless shelter disgusted? Shouldn’t they be in tears falling over themselves to help all those poor men? Especially the disabled ones? Why does it only apply to certain subjects and not others if it’s built into their nature? Why do they stick around if a man loses his job, but only for a period of time and only if that man looks like he’s trying to find another job…if it’s some natural instinct to care for him, why would she ditch him when he just lays on the couch being too sad to work?

    2) “…is wounded or suffering from PTSD. I doubt we’ll ever see an honest study on the subject because of how ugly the results would be”

    Controversial statement time: I’m not entirely convinced Sudden Infant Death Sydrome isn’t code for “holy shit the mom got cold feet once the baby was born and/or was in such a crazy hormonal depressed state that she held a pillow over the kid’s face but that reality is so ugly and terrfying with our view of women being nurturing mothers that it would cause too many rifts in society to handle. Men would be terrified to reproduce and women would be viewed as potential insane murderers who need to be kept away from being isolated with their baby for it’s first year of life to be safe, people would say “wait if women make insane decisions when they regret something does that also mean that when they regret sex with a man they might lie that it was rape too?? Sure we also have plenty of cases where women drown their babies or leave their dead bodies in cardboard boxes in the garage so there’s precedent set that mothers sometimes kill their babies…but I mean, this is all preposterous, women and mothers especially are angels!” Society would crumble if we published the reality of what’s happening, and no one would believe it if we did because no one wants to think their girlfriend or daughter is capable of it and we would be villified, so lets just slap a label on it where we can say we have no idea what happened and there’s no consistency with it and it always happens in those first few months (you know where regret and hormones would be highest).”

    How many other totally unexplainable deaths are there with no autopsy evidence and no crime scene evidence of why they died, esp with modern forensics and autopsy procedures? What if the mom who gets caught drowning her babies in the local river was just too public/blatant a case to chalk up to SIDS compared to plugging a nose and rationalizing it and some white knight doctors covering it up for the good of society?

    Just a theory lol I don’t know if it’s true, but I’ve seen a lot of female behavior that makes me wonder if we don’t have a built in “juuuust incase when you have to change diapers and feed it and it’s crying all night, if you regret it and in a crazy hormonal state happen to cover it with a pillow, we won’t tell your husband who would probably murder you” get out of motherhood free card.

    But hey maybe I’m just jaded lol

  35. @ Seraph

    I don’t think zro1dz is female, but he absolutely thinks like they want him to think. Buys into that shit lock, stock, and both smoking barrels. Probably single mom raised and or highly religious.

    In this community its just the same tired pattern..

  36. @Vulpine, Re: “Widespread red-pill flaw”

    Dude, While I think you absolutely nailed it, I would add that this isn’t so much a flaw as it’s part of the “bargaining” process of grieving your unplugging.

    When I first swallowed the red-pill, it was with the expressed desire to win the sadistic ‘pick me dance’ mindfuck with my cheating ex-wife. Then an amazing thing happened… I became a better man and regained power in my life in ways I couldn’t have imagined. My self-worth, power, frame returned quickly and it was a short span of months when I said buh-bye, packed up what was important to me, walked away from the rest of it, and never looked back.

    It’s a process, but some guys do get stuck.

  37. “The pretense built up inside of me until I really was a complete fraud, to myself most of all. The plain truth is that I’ve been drowning in grief and regret and sadness, but pretending I was still that bright young shiny guy. So now I’m face to face with Glenn’s profound despair. And I have a choice, but the truth also is that I’m unmoored and adrift with it all.”

    Glenn,

    I hear you. I do. Struggling with similar stuff, and I am roughly your age. My life is not bad, but there is a WHOLE lot of shit I wish I had done differently, but even that feels wrong because if I had done it differently, would I have the kids that I love?

    The problem is, regret is that snake swallowing it’s own tale. It goes on forever, you never finish, and you start choking on it.

    When I am telling you this, I am telling myself:

    Break that fucking cycle. Break it anyway you can. In little ways, and then maybe you will see a way to do it in bigger way. But start hammering at it.

    I am still hammering at it, and I make small progress, small enough to frustrate, but enough to see some slivers of light.

    There is a reason people talk about being in a rut. How does a rut form? Well, something goes over and over the same space again and again, and it cuts a swath along that path. That cut path then makes it easier and easy to follow that path until one fines it’s more like a gully, and changing direction is now problematic.

    So, how to do it?

    Well, I have been picking up pieces here and there, and a couple of posters here have really been good in pointing me in certain directions. Sorry I forget who it as, but the Alan Watts discussions on Zen philosophy had a profound impact on me. Find some of his talks on Youtube. You won’t need to become a monk, or meditate. Just understand that it is your life to experience; make sure you go and do it.

    Do what?

    I don’t know. What have you not tried? We’re not talking opium den or boar hunting. Just…deviate from that rut.

    I started to develop a basic interest in photography. I bought a better camera (not terribly expensive) to pursue that. Even a few photos that I took either of scenes or my kids which better than I normally would get peaked my interest. I find I am paying attention a little more to what is going on outside than inside my head.

    Where will this interest lead?

    I don’t know, but the Zen concept is that it doesn’t matter. Just keep going. The experience of the journey is what matters. Enjoy it. Not knowing the end makes for a better story.

    I think where I get tripped up is, well Outcome Dependence for life in general. And I don’t mean not having goals, I mean trying to orchestrate one’s life to the point where there are no surprises, which does not work well for two reasons.

    One, as organized and focused as you are, life will always bat around your expectations.

    Two, planning exactly what will happen, if it works out, is not nearly as interesting.

    And maybe a third is, being so focused on one particular outcome, OR, path to said outcome puts blinders on you, not allowing you to see other opportunities as they crop up.

    Perhaps call that One-itis of lifestyle. What I am truly realizing is how Red Pill is NOT just woman focused. The lessons apply to a lot more.

    Okay, went off on a tear, but Glenn, I understand the obsession with regret. It was obsessing me, draining me of my enjoyment of now, leaving new trails of regret to haunt me. I have made a determined effort to jettison that shit.

    Am I entirely successful?

    No. Ruts are hard to completely ignore, but if you make no efforts, it only gets deeper.

    Pragmatism is in order for both of us. We will not get years back, and we won’t have a time machine to change our past.

    (I asked Rollo. He doesn’t have one…dammit!)

    As Watts put it, you are a ship on the ocean, and looking back you see a wake, which where you’ve been. It can’t, and it shouldn’t, have a say in where you are going.

    Try it, Glenn. Look for ruts and purposefully deviate from them, even if there does not seem to be a particular point in whatever you do differently.

  38. @Ya

    I’ve seen “good wives and moms” do things…..bad, bad, bad things and then go home like nothing happened so many fucking times (over and over) it informs a thinking man that to wholly trust a female or anyone (including dear old mom) isn’t just foolish but could mean your health or safety.

  39. “I’m glad to hear we are in agreement. You can use that knowledge to better predict female behavior.”

    (sigh)

    Alright.

    (pats Droidz on head)

    Run along now.

  40. @Tilikum,

    “I don’t think zro1dz is female, but he absolutely thinks like they want him to think. Buys into that shit lock, stock, and both smoking barrels. Probably single mom raised and or highly religious.”

    Yeah, certainly possible. Like I said, it may be my altered perspective that can no longer understand thinking like that as a male.

  41. @YaReally

    “……..and men repeat this INSANE PATTERN. Every fucking DAY. You, reading this, probably know or have been or ARE this exact fucking guy.”

    I was exactly that guy… twice!

    Bro, I was living Einstein’s definition of insanity. Between the two, I lost the weight, got in shape, got my alpha mojo back and then I rinsed and repeated.

    It would be very easy to get bitter with women and angry at myself for being a gullible pussy, but that would be the easy way out. Now that I’m red-pilled and ‘get it’, I look back at it all as learning opportunities with a mission to capitalize on every opportunity that comes my way. And brother, this has paid dividends that in the past I could only dream of. Never again!!

  42. @zdroids

    I actually see the logic in your “motherhood” angle. It does have some weight, but, there is a condition. I think you may have something there, listing “motherhood” after AF, and after BB.

    Looking back at the pictures you posted as illustration, let’s look at “gamer gurl flashing boobs for donations”. You’ll notice, she’s “doable”. That is, young, decent looking, passes most guys’ boner test.

    Then look at the “rescue” “mothering” pictures.

    See the difference?

    The first picture consists of a pre-wall, likely never pregnant chick. AF/BB would be HER default mode.

    The second “mother” pictures are post-wall, and this is the crucial condition, post-motherhood.

    My point being is: a woman needs to get pregnant, have a baby, AND THEN they realize that they:
    1.) inherently have a “knack” for the skill of “mothering”
    2.) love the feelz that mothering rewards them with (accomplishment, appreciation, etc.)
    3.) she’ll have to change her game in order to still get laid

    You will notice, if you have had any experience banging single mommies, that you ended up banging the single mommy because, well, she made you feel good. Whereas, non-mommies of that age are “ridiculously entitled/unrealistic/infallible” or simply adversarial in comparison.

    Well, the second a baby pops out of a chick’s chute, the truths of her life smack her in the face. No longer is she able to rely on her SMV for AF/BB, as her SMV is shot. She, on some core level, understands that her party girl years are over, it’s time to be responsible, not just for herself, but for the kid. She also understands that her AF/BB mode is a non-option, unless she can use her newly found “mothering magic” skills on some beta dude she can coerce into cuckholding. Pampering, fawning, and coddling, she uses her mothering skills on guys to get laid, as she has no room to be any sort of bitch: her SMV is far too low to get away with it (unless guys don’t know about her kid). Her odds of getting laid, or any guy giving her the time of day, rests on her “sweetening the deal” with mothering niceness (cooperative) to obscure the kid “drawback” a guy would perceive. A new mother needs to “compensate” by upping her niceness to offset the drop in SMV.

    Simply put, pre-motherhood women can get away with being a spitter. Post-motherhood women need to swallow, then get up and fix a sandwich.

    I see “motherhood” not as a “dynamic” in the same sense that AF/BB explains feels versus providership, but more a skill set used to compensate for the drop in SMV…

    but still applied to AF/BB (if she’s a single mother).

    Except, post-motherhood women don’t “AF/BB”, they only “F/B”, her choice is limited. So, ANY fucks or bucks, without regard to “alpha/beta”, is the new mode.

    So:

    “AF/BB” applies to pre-motherhood, high SMV women, with their options open.

    “Motherhood” is “AF/BB” with the “high SMV options” stripped away, leaving only “F/B” from any or all comers, with extra pampering to entice some dude, any dude, to stick around and deal with her kid(s). Alphas, Betas, Omegas, Sigmas… anyone who she can get her hooks into.

    Yes, women are mothering creatures, but, only after they learned to be a mother… by being a mother. Once they are a mother, they apply that skill set to men, but they can’t apply that skill set (and that pragmatic mindset unfound in non-mothers) until it is foist upon them when the doctor hands them their baby. Epiphany always ensues.

    Once a dude is locked into the cuckhold spot, then the mommy is free to drop the act and get back to AF/BB, with the security of the chump back at the nest watching over kids that aren’t his, and he’s certainly too douchey to bounce up out that scene.

    The behavior before having a cuck is far different than the behavior without. One is desperation, the other is “abundance”. In that “Mother II” mode, it’s “game on!”, and she’s free to go buck-wild on spring break like old times. “Here, hold my kid, I need to get up and dance on this bar.” In “Mother I” mode, it’s “holy shit! paying these bills myself sucks, and I’m tired of this vibrator”.

    It’s a shame that women can’t just act “cooperative” like a mommy from the start. It’s not until “adversarial” is off the table due to low SMV that women learn to be cooperative, like a “tool”, like a skill set previously un-used.

    Not until a woman learns the steps can she do the dance. And guys see a mother and go “oh, wow, this chick is awesome”, fuck her, then she drops the “I have a kid” on them, then the guy thinks “Oh. I see, now, why she has to act all awesome and shit.”

    I’ve seen it a lot with women I’ve known pre-kid and post-kid. I will say that women are NOT “good mothers” until they are mothers, and they suck at it initially, as they struggle with the red pill that’s just woke them up to reality. They aren’t any better or worse than men who are nurturing/caring/cooperative. But, with practice, learn the craft, and use it on unsuspecting would-be cuckholds, like a pattern, or leading, or a gimmick along those lines.

    Is that what you’ve been driving at? These sort of dynamics?
    I think AF/BB stands, and that “motherhood” is a post-wall/post-kid version of the same dynamics, but the goal-posts have been moved further away for the woman.

    Anyone can be nurturing, but women don’t bother with that brand of “cooperative” until they absolutely must.

  43. You can use that knowledge to better predict female behavior.

    zDroidz —

    Except that it doesn’t, at least not in ways that aren’t already subsumed by the red pill ideas.

    Women have a motherhood instinct — noone denies this. In order to become a mother and raise offspring successfully, however, a woman needs genes and resources — AF and BB. This is why, as Rollo has aptly described, women are attracted to both AF and BB in different ways, such that the attraction to AF is visceral/sexual/arousal, while the attraction to BB is comfort/security. A woman seeks both in order to satisfy her sexual drive which, of course, is pro-creative in its ultimate base (both the male AND the female sex drives are pro-creative in their ultimate base, after all). So, motherhood drive is the female “base” which underlies both AF and BB, because she is attracted to AF and BB due to both being needed to successfully fulfill the sex drive, which has motherhood as its underlying base.

    Of course, in our current scenario, sex and reproduction have been separated — technologically and culturally. So while the underlying drives all have a pro-creative base, in our current scenario they are often expressed and actualized separately due to the reigning technological and cultural de-coupling of sex from reproduction. With the advent of this de-coupling, the attractions of women which inform their sexuality similarly became decoupled from the underlying reproductive basis (motherhood), for many women, at least for much of their lives until a certain time comes along when the motherhood instinct kicks into high gear (most typically observed in women in their mid 30s and later). Prior to that time, most women are manifestly *not* prioritizing motherhood, but are in fact consciously placing it on the back burner so that they can focus on other things (career, travel, riding the CC). It’s certainly true that for *these* women who reach the babies rabies moment, the motherhood drive is a huge factor at that time — that’s why it’s termed having “babies rabies” in the manosphere. It’s also true, however, that almost *all* of these women seek to actualize their babies rabies/motherhood drive with a BB for various reasons, many of them having to do with the time that babies rabies tends to kick in and where that intersects with where the woman is on her SMV curve.. So in reality the “actualized” motherhood drive, in the current context where sex and reproduction have been culturally and technologically de-coupled, is in most cases played out as a motivation for seeking BB more than anything else.

    I know that you’re going to say that you mean more by motherhood drive than what I have wrote — i.e., the actual nurturing instinct. That’s fine, but the key for the red pill is how that underlying drive impacts how women relate to *men*, and that’s both sexual and relational, which is why the emphasis in the red pill is understanding how women will deal with men at various points of their lives. Again, the babies rabies moment will generally send most women into a desperate search for a mate, and almost always in the BB mode. It’s key for men to understand that motive (and I think it *has* been explained in the manosphere quite a lot over the years) and how it tends to manifest as a search for BB. Once women have the children, however, the motherhood instinct/drive in the broader sense of nurturing and so on interplays with both (i) permissive, women/mother-biased divorce laws and practices and (ii) the “I can do better” EPL culture to create *more* divorce and family chaos, not less, precisely because the mother can retain control over her motherhood, while retaining the support benefits of the BB she sought out mostly to satisfy her babies rabies, as compared with the AFs she sought out for sex when she was younger and had her motherhood drive on the back burner (or, for lower SES women, keep getting support from the government while monopolizing her motherhood of the AF brood she has developed). So, yes, it’s there, but for men and our dealings with women, the most important thing to understand about the motherhood drive/instinct is that it will often be used to cut you out of the picture (unless you manage the relationship properly) precisely because the current law and culture empower women to do so, and to retain independent control over motherhood and children whilst also retaining most of the BB benefits even post-divorce. For the man, this is the key takeaway regarding the motherhood instinct.

  44. AFBB is an irreducible. It stands alone.

    To add motherhood as anything but a derivative deludes or destroys meaning and definition.

  45. @ Vulpine
    Looking back at the pictures you posted as illustration, let’s look at “gamer gurl flashing boobs for donations”. You’ll notice, she’s “doable”. That is, young, decent looking, passes most guys’ boner test.

    You’re right the young skank was in theory doable while the old women were dried up. But it wouldn’t necessarily have to be that way. The motherhood instinct shows up at a very early age and lasts a lifetime.

    http://i.imgur.com/NzjdW5C.jpg

    Simply put, pre-motherhood women can get away with being a spitter. Post-motherhood women need to swallow, then get up and fix a sandwich.
    That is a 100% accurate observation.

  46. @ 70’sAntiHero

    AFBB is an irreducible. It stands alone.

    The reason that makes sense to men is because it’s how we instinctively view the world. You shoot your load and your strongest instincts go dark. Women aren’t that way.

  47. @ zdr01dz

    Momentarily, perhaps . . . . however, I don’t cash in my mutual fund as a result.

    It make sense to he steely eyed female guidance counselor that has to deal with the mom with seven kids from four dads. When she tells me,”why doesn’t she keep her legs closed?”

  48. Insanity is dead-on right. I want to link to her blog!

    MGTOW types are the exact mirror images of feminists. As with feminists, the five main traits of MGTOWs are:

    1. Whining

    2. Self-proclaimed perpetual victim status

    3. Whining

    3. A belief that the sexes are identical–except that one sex gets unfair preferences and privileges from society

    5. Whining

    I can’t help it that you guys couldn’t exercise enough judgment and common sense to marry a virtuous and loyal woman, so you got burned (or think you got burned) in divorce court. How about trying to learn from your mistakes instead of complaining all the time? Complaining is wussy.

    Ooh, now I’M going to be the next target of Glenn’s famous fusillades of four-letter words. Got any new ones, Glenn?

  49. It’s so fucking funny. Quote from one of the OP’s posts:

    «I guess I am just feeling kind of cheated. I mean we both have past lovers and we normally don’t have problems with that, even discussing them (without detail of course). However I give my boyfriend my all, I don’t hold back on him. Now after all this time I find out I am not getting everything he has to offer and never will. I can see him hiding his wealth for the first few months or a year, however it has been three years now. Even talking with him I find out that he will never treat me like a queen as he has done with these other women. If I am suppose to be the love of his life, then why does he offer me less than these other women that means nothing to him? In one way I am thinking about leaving him knowing that I’ll never be treated as well as the other women. In another way I want to stay with him, because aside from this he really does treat me great and I really love him. I am so confused and hurt right now. Can anyone give me any help with this to make a decision?»

  50. @Vulpine

    See, that’s the sort of thing I’m talking about. Upthread I asserted that women do, in fact, have some sort of nurturing impulse but that it only emerges in the correct circumstances – generally when they have something to nurture after they feel reasonably content that AF/BB is taken care of.

    I think you detailed the circumstances it emerges in, and the motivations behind it, far more thoroughly and accurately. Hat tip. It’s a strategy used when feral, cost-free AF and (perceived) limitless options for BB dry up and she’s forced to consolidate on what she still can.

    And, I mean, women do seem to get pleasure from looking at, holding, and cuddling cute things in a way men usually don’t, so there is some instinctive grounding that teaches them how to do it effectively – but only in the same way that your body knows instinctively how to run properly, but those circuits never get activated until you put foot to trail.

    All their fawning over cute bunnies and babies makes them good mothers about as much as some fat chump masturbating in front of a computer to bugeyed anime chicks becomes an alpha sex god thereby. It’s the same drive, but there’s no skin in the game.

    I’ll just add this anecdotal detail – I had a very good mother. She was nurturing, non-abusive, caring without being smothering. She gave me affection and care and then pulled away and let me be as I got older. She couldn’t teach me to be a man of course, but that’s not the job of any woman; ideally after this I would have learned masculinity from fathers and brothers and peers.

    (Side note – the reason I ended up so repressed/BP is due to an effeminate and abusive older brother, not her. I have a younger brother who had the same mother and father but wasn’t raised alongside my older brother nearly as much and he’s always been naturally alpha, open, happy, confident, masculine.)

    So how did that happen? I think I’ve seen the same pattern a few times with other very good mothers, and I think it’s basically this – they get connected to a man who satisfies hypergamy very well (ideally he’s alpha in personality, and that translates naturally into him making enough money to be a good provider) and have a couple of kids with him. At least 3, more seems to be better.

    When this happens, her hypergamy is tamped down (not eliminated) by a desirable mate she wishes to please; at the same time, having a bunch of kids dramatically decreases her options, as you note. So the continued optimization of her hypergamy becomes tied to becoming nurturing to her children as a way of pleasing her man and keeping the family together.

    As she does so, she becomes closer to content than women in any other circumstance that I’ve observed. This sort of life hits all her circuits to some degree, it’s what women are wired for – little as they may realize it. She’s living in and facilitating a reality created by ‘her’ alpha – one full of reminders of him, full of ways for her to work hard to please him.

    I’m not prescribing this as an end-goal for anyone. It can be a happy life for a man, but as the wrecks of lives displayed here vividly demonstrate, it’s a real reach for the stars. Most men who aim for this life fail.

  51. @Rollo Tomassi

    What’s HUS?

    I’m not indignant, merely observant. I’m happily married and completely devoted to an alpha-natural guy whom I treat as the head of our household–because he is.

  52. @ charlette allen

    I found your article, “The New Dating Game”, a few years back to be elucidating and extremely helpful! Thanks!

    It shook my world.

    You’re the reason why I am here. lol

    Have you written more regarding gender dynamics? Where are you being published?

    regards

    1. @70sAntiHero:

      I’m flattered to have a fan!

      I haven’t written anything as specifically about male-female dynamics as “The Dating Game,” although I’ve reviewed books off and on that treat them. I did a recent big piece on the transgender phenomenon for the Weekly Standard that’s kind of about male-female dynamics (or at least male-female differences)–and I’m working on a story about the war against fraternities (a takeoff from the UVA rape hoax) that’s definitely about sex differences.

      During 2014 and a bit of 2015 I was blogging regularly for the Los Angeles Times–until my editor left and the blog petered out. It’s too bad–my “beat” was feminist follies. My “Top Ten Feminist Follies of 2014” was linked in numerous places and got widely read. But I still blog for the Independent Women’s Forum and at my own site, Stupid Girl. That’s why I often visit this site–looking for material.

      I’m perpetually fascinated by the war between the sexes and the current narrative that sex differences don’t really exist.

    2. Sorry Charlotte, had you mixed up with one of Aunt Giggles’ girls. That said, Hooking Up Smart looks like its golden days are over.

      FWIW, Glenn’s not a MGTOW. I get that the Neomasculinity push will make attempts to tar TRP as nothing but whiners. They’ll need make simplistic distortions of all the tribes of Game in order to proliferate.

      That is what I find disingenuous (@Muslim Conservative), they know that each of the tribes they now conveniently dismiss are far more involved and far more influential to Neomasculinity than they can acknowledge – at least for now.

      1. @Rollo Tomassi:

        Hi, Rollo! Oh–Hooking Up Smart! I used to read it a lot because she had really good advice for young women on the pitfalls of promiscuity and how to find and treat a man. Then the blog kind of fell apart, around the time she dropped the banner with Bellini’s “Feast of the Gods”–which was so apt for today’s dating dynamic. I lost interest.

        Re Glenn and some of the other commenters on this site: They are unusually bitter. The problem is that both men and women are driven by reproductive urges that dictate very different approaches to mate-seeking and can produce some extremely negative consequences and breed extremely negative personality traits and habits–for both sexes. In the West a lot of that destructive negativity (not all of it but a lot) was constrained until recently by a society that was both explicitly patriarchal and discouraging of both divorce and extramarital sex and childbearing. All that has pretty much fallen apart, except in a few religious subcultures, and there are many, many victims–of both sexes.

        Of course I regard feminism, tolerated and even egged on by idiot men, as the most destructive force in today’s West and responsible for much of the sexual and familial havoc in today’s society. But that doesn’t mean men get off the hook. I’m sorry, but a) complaining 24/7 about how rotten women are; b) saying nasty things to them; and c) boasting about all the 20-year-olds you lured into your bed (thus contributing to their high N count that will make them unmarriageable–and also to the eventual cynicism and hostility toward men that you loathe–seems just as bad as the 24/7 whine over at Jezebel.

        There are actually women out there, even in this day and age, who are loyal and virtuous wives and excellent mothers. Many of them are my friends. If I can find them–and some men obviously found them–so can plenty of other men. It’s just plain unmanly to whinge constantly about the rotten deal that life handed you. It’s time for men to cultivate some refined and honorable masculinity and hold out for good women, just as women ought hold out for good men.

  53. @zdroids

    No, “motherhood” nurturing does not appear at a young age. Young people modeling what they see on TV appears at a young age. Mothers buying kids dolls is what you see at a young age. You don’t see nurturing, you see pretending, and emulation.

    Don’t confuse empathy for the helpless as “nurturing”, either.

    nur’ture:

    1. To feed; to nourish
    2. To educate; to bring or train up

    What the fuck is some little girl going to mold a doll into? What is a little girl going to feed that fucking plastic and cloth mass that will prompt it to grow? Where is that little girl coming up with food to feed the doll? I know: the land of make-believe, where you found your premises.

    No, there is no “nurturing” as you trying to stretch the definition to encompass. A picture of a girl with a doll is emulation, not nurturing.

  54. Novaseeker – “With the advent of this de-coupling, the attractions of women which inform their sexuality similarly became decoupled from the underlying reproductive basis (motherhood), for many women, at least for much of their lives until a certain time comes along when the motherhood instinct kicks into high gear (most typically observed in women in their mid 30s and later). Prior to that time, most women are manifestly *not* prioritizing motherhood, but are in fact consciously placing it on the back burner so that they can focus on other things (career, travel, riding the CC)[…..]So in reality the “actualized” motherhood drive, in the current context where sex and reproduction have been culturally and technologically de-coupled, is in most cases played out as a motivation for seeking BB more than anything else.”

    I think this illustrates a pretty key point we’re missing here.

    The drives women (and men) have are not consciously associated with the biological reasons those drives exist. Women are driven to fuck alphas because of visceral desires they feel, not because they want babies with good genes. But in a state of nature, the babies would come regardless of intention. And motherhood instincts, such as they are, would (hopefully) kick in at that point.

    So expecting women to have a ‘mothering instinct’ that causes them to consciously pursue pregnancy and then nurture the resulting child is kinda putting the cart before the horse. A woman’s mothering instincts kick in when the baby is in front of her, not before.

    Basically, a woman’s instincts are reactive – even much more so than a man’s are. She doesn’t seek out or hunt the alpha (unless she’s learned through experience/conditioning to do so), she just gets the tinglez when he finds her and acts accordingly. Motherhood is no different – at a visceral level, they don’t seek it – they just react according to the incentives and environment they find themselves in.

  55. “The reason that makes sense to men is because it’s how we instinctively view the world. You shoot your load and your strongest instincts go dark.”

    “Honey?”

    “Yes, David.”

    “There are a kids running around our yard…”

    Claire walked into the dining room, joining him as he looked out the window.

    “Dave…we’ve been over this. They’re your children.”

    Dave turned to her, perplexed.

    “I’m not following you.”

    Claire sighed.

    “Your kids, David. Those are your kids. Our kids. Alicia and Thomas.”

    David squinted at her.

    “When you say ours…”

    “We have children, David. TWO!”

    David seemed to contemplate it as he gazed back out the window.

    “How did that happen?”

    “FUCKING, Dave! Do you remember fucking?”

    David immediately turned toward her, a salacious grin on his face.

    “Yeah! I certainly do. You want to-”

    “NO!” Claire held up a hand. “David….focus.”

    He didn’t seem happy to take the focus away from fucking, but he seemed to try.

    “When we fuck…and you come. You put semen inside of me. Sometimes it meets an egg that *I* have, and usually it results in a baby being born 9 months after.”

    David gave her a blank look.

    “You were there for BOTH births, David.”

    David scrunched up his face.

    “You sure?”

    “David!”

    “I remember the fucking…”

    He turned back to gaze out the window. His kids saw him. Waved at him.

    “So…why did we keep them again?”

    Claire shook her head angrily, stomped off to the kitchen. David watched her go, confused. Some screaming from outside drew his gaze back out the window.

    “Claire!…There’s some kids running around in our yard.”

  56. @sun
    Im glad you mentioned losing the concept of humanity. Thats what gets to me. Whats really left post-humanity? I just want to lay around like a lion now and stay warm.

    On the topic of motherhood, babies release phermones from the top of their head for multiple reasons. So when women are holding other peoples babies it triggers “baby rabies” in the form of withdrawl from the phermones.

  57. “I’m perpetually fascinated by . . . the current narrative that sex differences don’t really exist.”

    Men want women, but they don’t need them.
    Women don’t want men, but they need them.

    And there’s your difference between MGTOW and feminism.

    1. @kfg

      Men don’t “need” women in the sense that they can create and build and organize all the things in the world (as they do now), and then come home to…???

      Women don’t “want” men in the sense that they write stuff like “a fish needs a bicycle” on T-shirts.

  58. Thanks. I’ll keep my eye out.

    Rollo is the gold standard for encouraging men to use thier mind in a positive, enlightened and knowable pursuit. To recognize women for their true nature in the context of the modern day fem centric culture and not to hate them for it.

  59. @zdroidz – “Riddle me this. What does this picture of two older women taking care of an orphaned owl have to do with Beta Bucks? Nothing.”

    It also has nothing to do with motherhood…

  60. @Forge the Sky

    Mai Frau and I have recently had a conversation regarding “gender roles that are unhealthily shunned” where motherhood is “a woman’s place”, despite feminists wanting to crank up their testosterone, swinging hammers in a man’s realm like dear old Rosie the Ironworker, getting “roid rage” from the testosterone that they should avoid increasing, and continuing to crank up their testosterone levels by the competition in school, the single scene, and the workplace… for men’s roles. There is no competition or testosterone-promoting situations in motherhood.

    I’ve seen women completely contented and happy in their motherhood role, completely 180º from their career lives. It’s really no wonder, seeing as how I don’t have a uterus, or ovaries, and all.

  61. @ Rollo Ah okay i think i get what you’re getting at. He didn’t have to come out and be all “i’m not longer part of the Red Pill” and “the Red Pill is wrong.” He could have just come out and said “I’m starting a political wing of the Red Pill movement. I’m calling it neomasculinity because imo that’s a nicer name and I slightly differ on tenants x y and z. Who wants to join me?”

    Instead he’s making neomasculinity to be something different than tRP, which, let’s be frank, it’s not. Also he’s trashing all of the Red Pill (which by the way he did not originally intend to do, he was actually friendly at the start before tRP attacked him viciously.) And the rebranding you think is a marketing effort. To be honest, if Roosh was short on cash he could just open a shop on his website selling t-shirts with funny manosphere memes, he’d make a killing on that. I still don’t think his motivation is primarily financial, I think it’s about life purpose and retaining leadership. I think you’re only deepening the rift every time you make the accusation that it’s financial, especially as it’s too early to tell. Just let the rift heal, give it time and don’t mudsling, for the sake of all men. This sphere is legitimately the last hope for men in the West, other than maybe a religious movement. Guard it carefully.

  62. @ Rollo Also I already have a way to resolve the concerns Roosh is going to bring up about evo psych. The short answer is this; evo psych describes human instinct not human behaviour. The reason is because human beings have animal instincts, but also a soul with the ability to choose and that pulls in the opposite direction (or if you’re an atheist, an inexplicable higher cognitive function.) For this reason, evo-psych can tell us that, for example, all men have a polygamous instinct; most men, however, choose not to exercise said instinct. Even out of the ones for which it would be easier (due to good looks, wealth, or whatever), some choose not to act on this instinct. The reason is because there are other factors that work into human behaviour besides their base instincts. A counter argument to this would be that it is simply some base instincts acting as the limiting factor on other base instincts (for example social shaming limiting polygamy.) This, however, is inadequate to explain why some choose to forgoe the social shaming in favour of acting out of their polygamous instinct, while others do not. I hope you understand what I’m saying here.

    Imo evo-psych has been more accurate at describing human behaviour in the West due to the moral degeneracy and hence animal-like behaviour of the majority of the population. When people act like animals, describing instinct is describing behaviour. That being said, there are some animal instincts which are necessary to fulfill and others which it is necessary to prevent, and imo the right balance can only be found in religion.

    1. @CMG, it’s not just TRP. Go have a read of Roosh’s 2 part interview on AVfM. He was very accommodating which surprised me because he’d been very critical of MRAs in two of his previous videos as well as a few posts.

      When I asked him about it he said “We’re at a truce.” and that was all he’d say. Now he characterize’s the MRM with simple dismissals of buzzwords (“gynocentrism”) and a collection of bitter old men burned by divorce laws.

      Next he goes on Dr. Oz, get’s worked over on an MSM venue and makes pleas for understanding because he was “ambushed” by OZ and his crew. The only problem with this is that exactly a year prior he wrote a scathing post called “Dr. Oz is a Pussy” and about how beholden he is too his (overweight) wife who’s been more or less responsible for his marginal commercial success.

      Either Roosh is an exceptionally bad judge of character, or he knew going in that he’d be “ambushed”. Either way he knew about Oz’s wife running the show before he went on, yet he still chose to do so.

      Next, he systematically dismisses the entirety of the manosphere in short paragraphs and overly simplistic labels while promoting Neomasculinity as the next step in the evolution of “his” (I am your father) manosphere.

      All of that conveniently to till the fields before he goes on his first ever World Tour to promote a Neomasculinity no one is yet familiar with. It’s masterful really.

      As I said in the previous thread, I don’t begrudge the guy a living, a guy’s gotta eat, but you’ll pardon me for finding how he’s going about it as disingenuous.

    2. @CMG,

      The short answer is this; evo psych describes human instinct not human behaviour.

      Incorrect. Evo-Psych is a very useful tool in predicting behavior. The studies in Ovulatory Shift are a prime example.

      Imo evo-psych has been more accurate at describing human behaviour in the West due to the moral degeneracy and hence animal-like behaviour of the majority of the population.

      You’re making appeals to morality while ignoring the underlying base instincts and the behaviors that are manifested by them.

      The reason moral absolutists have a problem with evo-psych is because they presume it excuses an individuals anti-social or duplicitous behaviors. They think it’s biologically deterministic and therefor it’s some license to be exempt from personal responsibility.

      It’s not. It simple describes (or asks the right questions about) the underlying dynamics of human behavior. Evo-Psych isn’t an apology for bad behavior, but that’s what moral-primacy wants to call it.

  63. Correction: this, however, is only a partial explanation for why some choose to forgoe the social shaming in favour of acting out their polygamous instinct***

  64. @70’sAntiHero

    Your 12:19pm comment today is absolute gold.You can’t get angry at someone when you know their motivations, conscious or otherwise.

  65. @Charlotte Allen

    Insanity is dead-on right. I want to link to her blog!

    lol

    1. Whining

    MGTOW is *mostly* a phase of acceptance that men go through. Whining is an acceptable behavior when moving through stages of grief.

    2. Self-proclaimed perpetual victim status

    This is entirely untrue. MGTOW men claim no victimhood save what society observably foists on them. In response they separate themselves as much as they can from traditional societal institutions. Claiming perpetual victim status would be modifying the system such that it recognizes you or your kind as victims. MGTOW doesn’t do that, it simply removes the self from society in general.

    3. Whining

    Dementia has treatments afaik.

    3. A belief that the sexes are identical–except that one sex gets unfair preferences and privileges from society

    This is entirely untrue. MGTOW recognizes the sex differences, and also recognizes that the natural expression of their own sex (masculinity) is no longer allowed in society, is regarded as obsolete, unnecessary, and a social liability. As a result, MGTOW seeks whatever LCD situation achievable to control ones own life.

    5. Whining

    Ah, good, I was beginning to think you couldn’t count to 5.

    I can’t help it that you guys couldn’t exercise enough judgment and common sense to marry a virtuous and loyal woman, so you got burned (or think you got burned) in divorce court.

    There is perhaps a grain of truth there. However, it is not a surprise that you entirely fail to mention the responsibility of women to raise daughters that are worth marrying, instead of simply encouraging hypergamy to the point of creating a new Sodom and Gomorrah as western-womenkind have done.

  66. @Vulpine- great post. You nailed it and your observations are spot on. Thanks for that.
    @Seraph- I made the mistake of reading that post while at work and now patients are looking at me laughing like a madman.

  67. @70’sAntiHero

    AFBB is an irreducible. It stands alone.
    To add motherhood as anything but a derivative deludes or destroys meaning and definition.

    I haven’t seen anything from Droid that would convince me that there is some third instinct that can override DNA replication or survival instincts. That said, it is perhaps overly ambitious to claim that AFBB is not reducible or that Droid has no point worth thinking about.

    What Droid is saying doesn’t work for me because DNA (us, humans), only exists to self-replicate. That’s what DNA has been doing for billions of years. That is its only goal. In order to achieve this it must come up with a lifeform that (1) – Can survive, and (2) – Can replicate itself. Anything else is a violation of the basics of how live exists in the first place, and a waste of biological energy (which is only harvested through extreme effort, Entropy is a bitch).

    The examples of women having some instinct that would compel them to help wounded animals, that itself is not derivative of one of those two more basic instincts is to infer that life selects for activities that waste energy rather than self-replicate. In short, it violates the laws of life (such as they might be imagined).

  68. @charlette allen

    Honorable masculinity is all fine and dandy. However it is important to point out that men are much more scrutinized in our culture that the ‘go girl, Hanna Rosin, boys to the side, raunch culture.

    What about femininity, demure , general appearance and attractiveness? Female seduction seems to me be lost besides just showing up with a little bit of cleavage. What ever happened to “lady like’?

    It is not my obligation, to partner up with a women just because she has some virtues. I’m looking out for my interest, especially when and if I make the work decision it can be punitive.

    Women, IMO, wrote the book on whining. lol

    Feminism made this bed.

    Why don’t we talk about the broader implications of unabashed female hypergamy? . . . really like what is the deal with these hot teaches hooking up with young students.

  69. @droid

    Your model is incomplete

    What about shoes? Women love shoes!

    If you watch Sex in the City and compare occurrences of sex and new shoes in should be called Shoes in the City

  70. @ Jeremy

    Glenn, with respect, this is simply incorrect. “Red Pill” is not an innately moral analysis. It is an honest analysis, which in our modern times of daily bathing in lies feels significantly more “moral” than our daily activities. However, this does not make “Red Pill” moral in any sense of the word, it just means it has basis in fact as opposed to lies.

    Logical fallacy.

    Honesty, factual accuracy and therefore “talking-the-truth” are used to be called profound moral values.

    However, we today are gaining a new, scientific understanding of what morals and morality are: survival mechanisms.

    Accuracy of information (‘talking-the-truth’) e.g. was crucial in the male hunter society, where a wrong info could have endangered the whole hunting enterprise and led to the death of many men.

  71. @zip

    “Red Pill” is not an innately moral analysis. It is an honest analysis, which in our modern times of daily bathing in lies feels significantly more “moral” than our daily activities.

    Honesty, factual accuracy and therefore “talking-the-truth” are used to be called profound moral values.

    You have to define what moral values are, and you are also required to define them as a system more fundamental than human communication before you call what I said a logical fallacy.

    Systems of morality are built on human observation and communication powers (both are imperfect and incomplete toolsets for their purpose). Lies actually are more fundamental than this, at least for certain the lies that the sexes communicate to each other within the SMP are such. If this were not so, Game would be always easily and instantly recognizable as manipulation.

    Glenn is claiming that “Red Pill” is moral.

    I disagree. “Red Pill” is an effort to reveal lies that our biology has predestined us to tell to each other as a sexually dimorphic species for our own advantage. The lies told in blue pill land are not always told with malicious intent. In fact, outside of the feminists, they’re almost *never* told with malicious intent. In that case, their repeated re-telling is not immoral because it is simply the result of biological programming and ignorance of self.

    In fact, systems of morality were invented to *control* these animal natures. Red Pill does not seek to control those natures, it seeks to reveal them in all their distasteful ugliness.

  72. In fact, outside of the feminists, they’re almost *never* told with malicious intent. In that case, their repeated re-telling is not immoral because it is simply the result of biological programming and ignorance of self.

    I correct myself. They’re not told from the perspective of ignorance of self, but of the ignorance of the situation of others. The lies that “Red Pill” seeks to reveal to humanity only exist because of the significant limitations on human perception and the natural solipsism that exists from those limitations.

  73. @ Jeremy

    Dunno what ur problem is here. I have a strict evolutional perspective on morality and would agree that morals concured combined and interacting with human communication. There is not system more fundamental than the other.

    That said, morality is purposeful, not to say goal-oriented. It serves the special task to survive in different given contexts.

    So it’s not quite surprising, that men and women have different moral values for they had to meet different tasks.

    Telling the truth in RP is a rather male value. I would say that it arises from the need of the male hunter gang to give accurate informations of the observings in hunting.

  74. Nova has the thread winner, and explains what’s really going on with motherhood.

    Motherhood is the “base” that drives AF and BB.

  75. “Motherhood is the “base” that drives AF and BB.”

    Reproduction is the “base” that drives sexual strategy (it isn’t all about AF/BB, even plants have sexual strategy. Many sexual strategies involve multiple species) which feeds back into reproduction, which feeds back into . . . and thus AF/BB evolved as an optimization of sexual strategy for the human species, ensuring that the right babies are born, at the right time, in the right environment.

  76. ” . . .and then come home to…???”

    Peace and contentment. Something you wouldn’t understand.

  77. Heads up, Rollo. The super alpha neomasculine guys who don’t act at all like Feminists/SJWs are trying doxxing you in their long RVF neomasculinity thread.

    Personally I don’t think acting like schoolgirls is the way to convince men you know anything about masculine behavior lol

  78. @ Rollo

    I’m certain you’ve misunderstood what I’ve said about evo-psych. I am making a distinction between the urges/instincts human beings have, and whether or not they act on said instincts. The studies on ovulatory shift simply show that a certain instinct in females exist; it does not necessarily lead to women acting out on said instinct (i.e. predict behaviour). It is analogous to the example of polygamy which I gave. Evo-psych predicts human behaviour in as far as human beings act purely on their animal instincts.

    Nor am I arguing the perspective of the moral absolutists, I think you jumped to this conclusion because you saw me use the word “moral.” Reread my post more carefully. The only way evo-psych would not be deterministic is if what I’m saying is true.

    The point about morals was simply that when a person lacks morals, their behaviour is more accurately predicted by their animal instincts. A person of high moral calliber’s behaviour is not as accurately represented by evo-psych because they don’t act on animal instincts. Being a celibate nun like mother theresa? That behaviour is the opposite of what evo-psych predicts, but evo-psych can still accurately describe the instincts/urges she had to fight to remain celibate. In other words, evo-psych will tell you that even Mother Theresa was subject to hypergamy, but that does not predict her behaviour, which was to choose to remain celibate. I am not simply giving one counterexample, I am trying to show that in principle we have to make the distinction that evo-psych predicts human INSTINCT, but human beings are not simply animals. They can choose whether or not they act on those instincts, and the prevailing belief system in a society plays a large part in that. This is an aberration in the system of evolution; no other life form on earth exhibits this ability to act counter to instinct.

    1. @Charlotte allen
      You bring up a great point.
      With the five reasons you gave I am working on countering all of them by letting go.
      Move on
      However I need support that I get attacked for in bringing any of this stuff up in person.
      I don’t think your list includeds some of us learning how to change are behavior so we don’t come off as whining.
      I have done that. Not so much anymore.
      Keep calling any of is out on your observations.
      Interesting

  79. Correction: A person of high moral calliber’s behaviour is not as accurately represented by evo-psych because they don’t ALWAYS act on animal instincts.****

  80. ” . . . no other life form on earth exhibits this ability to act counter to instinct.”

    Perhaps you should thank the leopards for instilling that instinct in us.

  81. @kfg

    Peace and contentment. Something you wouldn’t understand.

    This cannot be overstated. The difference in my stress levels since the ex moved out are night and day. I eat better, sleep better, and it is so much easier to concentrate on the things that matter to me. I’ve even seen it reflected in our cats which she left with me. I used to have to clean up vomit at least daily, often several times per day. This continued for about a week after she left, until I had the house cleaned and rearranged, and then it just stopped. I’ve had to clean up after them only twice in the past two weeks and both incidents were caused by hairballs.

Speak your mind

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