Strength of Interest

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I had a couple of questions from the SoSuave Forum‘s (yes, I’m still a mod there) Judge Nismo I thought I’d take a crack at:

G’ morning Rollo. I got a couple questions for you that I don’t think you touched on in your book…or I may have overlooked.

1. What is your opinion on the Celebrity Maxim?

That is, I know you see it a lot in your Rational Male comments and on this board (i.e. Would she flake out on Brad Pitt? Would she make George Clooney wait for sex? She wouldn’t confuse Channing Tatum, etc.) I’ve even used it a lot on here, usually saying you wouldn’t fall asleep if you had a date with Katy Perry, and you wouldn’t pull a last minute flake text with Kate Upton, and you wouldn’t have to babysit if you had Shakira ready to bang!

If there’s three things I’ve learned from writing in the Manosphere for the past 12 years it’s this; no matter how apt, never use an allegory to illustrate a point, never try to relate a fictional story, movie or character to a real world dynamic and never hold up famous celebrities as common reference examples of broader, mundane dynamics.

The temptation to do so stems from a want for a common point of reference. However, appealing to a highly recognizable exemplar of a dynamic only makes picking apart the known particulars about that individual a priority – not on really grasping the dynamic itself.

I see this in the ‘sphere occasionally, and I’d be lying if I said I’d never committed these sins myself. For the most part, and certainly as far as my own readership goes, I think many of the best writers and the commentariat of the ‘sphere are very intelligent men. That’s not to account for the occasional troll, but I’ve found that even an OCD troll still needs to be clever in the ‘sphere.

That said, it’s just this preponderance of intelligence that makes men take illustrative examples as face value facts. Using celebrities as examples of commonality in purpose just smacks of the Apex Fallacy.

“….the Apex fallacy is the idea that we assign the characteristics of the highest visibility members of a group to all members of that group.”

If you’re at all familiar with the controversy surrounding the Apex Fallacy, feminists and manginas alike decided to commandeer wikipedia to paste this as a Men’s Rights misappropriation of the definition, but in actuality the true definition cuts both ways. So while women misappropriate the highest visibility men to associate a totality of the “patriarchy”, men, on the other hand, misappropriate the highest echelon men with examples of common inference of a dynamic.

In English, those celebs aren’t you or me or any layperson you deal with daily. I get the inference of course, and the message is usually one about incentives being strong enough to prompt behaviors. However, what Nismo is getting at is really less about the validity of those illustrations and more about genuine desire:

I ask since it’s quite a big trope in the manosphere…

2. What is your take on the one strike rule?

You do have a 3 strikes article on Rational Male, and I did read it. On this board, it’s quite common to see situations with chicks go like this:

– She flaked on me, she is deleted.
– She stopped responding to my texts and calls, automatic out.
– She wants to bring some friends along, sorry this is one on one.

I could go on and on, most of these situations often get read by red pill men as low interest, thus move on or become a beta orbiter. Yes, I do online dating and work 2 jobs, but I do have a one strike policy.

Sure, sometimes life will truly get in the way, but most men who are red pill will likely move on if there’s low interest. We all know not to waste time with uninterested chicks because they won’t put out. Heck, the sick excuse is often times a blow off, and lately, death in the family has been disguised as blowing someone off.

Zero Tolerance

The problem most men have with a Zero Tolerance policy is that you’re not George Clooney and you’re not Brad Pitt, but moreover, most men still cling to Blue Pill idealisms and the conditioned hope that women will see the “real” men they think women have a magical sensitivity to detect. Thus, they play by the script and hold out for the real desire they believe women should have a capacity for with them.

This is why Blue Pill men get angry at the 3-Strikes rule; that scarcity mentality colors their interaction with women to the point that anything counter to playing the patient, devoted, “prove-my-quality” white knightery role invalidates everything they’ve sacrificed and waited so patiently for up to that point.

They’re afraid of throwing the baby out with the bath water, and damn it, if you suggest doing anything other than what makes their patience worthwhile you’re a misogynistic prick.

If these men could pause with any insight they’d understand that any threshold – one strike, three strikes – suggested by myself or the manosphere isn’t about punishing a woman’s indecisiveness, but rather a pragmatic vetting meant to be efficient for men. That tolerance policy is about conservation of resources and time, not so much retribution (though I’me sure some men entertain that).

  • She flakes on you with no counter offer or marginal reframe? –
    Message: Insufficient interest
  • Stops responding to communications (and possibly resumes after a period)? – The Medium is the Message
  • Wants to bring friends along to a date? –
    Message: you are a rich resource to be exploited, or her interest is so low that she foresees a need to bring friends along to make her date with you entertaining.

The Prince with Interest

What Nismo is comparing here is really an evaluation of interest a woman has in you. I’ve gone into this in the past:

Women with high interest level (IL) wont confuse you. When a woman wants to fuck you she’ll find a way to fuck you. If she’s fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It’s when you patiently while away your time wondering what the magic formula is that’ll bring her around, that’s when you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attentions.

From an evolutionary perspective Hypergamy can’t afford to wait once a woman’s filtering mechanism is satisfied that a man passes for an Alpha. Women will break rules for Alpha men and create more rules for Beta men to have access to her. Keep in mind that first part; women will make access easy for a man she perceives as an SMV superior. Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit.

So to use the apex example, no, a woman can’t afford to confuse Channing Tatum. Mix in the behavioral influences a woman’s ovulatory chemistry predisposes her to with that SMV+ benefit perception and you’ve got dilated pupils, seductive ornamentation, lower vocal intonations and an elevated heart rate – Estrus.

As you might guess, this poses a problem for most guys because, lets face it, most of us aren’t examples of this apex. Even when we make dramatic leaps in self-improvement and physical transformation it’s hard to shake our former self-impressions and our previous degrees of self-confidence.

Back in the early days of SoSuave there was a concept we’d use that I think had a lot of merit – the concept of the Prince. For many men just coming into a Red Pill awareness meant re-imagining oneself in a new, more intrinsically valued light.

For instance, after you understand the basic psychology of why a technique like Cocky & Funny or Amused Mastery works with women, personally applying those dynamics requires a man to view himself in a more valuable context.

As I said, Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit, so it follows that a man should at least reconsider himself as that “better-than her SMV” prospect. Irrespective of that being a reality or not, the idea is a sound one. In fact it’s a law of power:

Law 25 – Re-Create Yourself

Do not accept the roles that society foists on you.  Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience.  Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define if for you. Incorporate dramatic devices into your public gestures and actions – your power will be enhanced and your character will seem larger than life.

And also:

Law 34 – Be Royal in your Own Fashion:  Act like a King to be treated like one

The way you carry yourself will often determine how you are treated; In the long run, appearing vulgar or common will make people disrespect you.  For a king respects himself and inspires the same sentiment in others.  By acting regally and confident of your powers, you make yourself seem destined to wear a crown.

In Amused Mastery, it helps to actually have some context of mastery to source as amusement.

Needless to say, asking a former Blue Pill Beta to simultaneously digest a new Red Pill awareness and revalue his self-worth is a pretty tall order. As I mention in Rejection & Revenge as a man, your existence will be defined by how you deal with rejection, so for a majority of men who’ve been hammered flat for the better part of a lifetime by women’s rejection telling him to adopt the mindset of a Prince is alien to him.

Furthermore, much of his feminine-conditioned self-perception has always taught him to be self-conscious and respectful of women’s default authority. It’s part of men’s previous Beta Game to want to identify with the feminine in order to prove how alike a man is with a woman. This conditioning is really a plan to force compliance to women’s sexual strategy from men, but it’s sold on the belief that being more feminine-like, feminine-sensitive, will set a Beta man apart from other brutish men who aren’t.

When you consider his previous degree of ego-investment in his conditioning, you can get a real appreciation of the unlearning a Red Pill man must do. It’s very difficult for most guys to consider themselves a Prince when they’ve been taught reverent deference to women all their lives.

Qualities of The Prince(ss)

A Prince’s time is valuable. His efforts and attention are gifts he bestows on the woman he’s interested in, and as such that woman’s esteem should be validated by it. She is envied by other women because of the Prince’s interest in her; it confirms there is something about her that sets her apart from other women. Her role becomes one of both humbling gratitude and excited, almost childlike, anticipations of him.

If that comes off like a pipe dream or a fake-it-till-you-make-it motivational screed, it’s because most men are so inured by a lifetime conditioning designed to hold them in the role of expectant, reverent, and deferring lover if they can perform to a woman’s standards. So ingrained is that subservience that a Princess’ acceptance of a man is exalted to an appreciation of spiritual, metaphysical, significance. God ordained her acceptance of him, the fates conspired or he “just got lucky”.

Beta men, in their Blue Pill expectations of women being rational agents, are often dumbfounded by the woman who compulsively returns over and over again to the Alpha ‘asshole’ who doesn’t respect, appreciate and love her like she deserves – like he would if she’d just come to her senses. We call that guy the emotional tampon, but what he doesn’t get is that the woman he’s orbiting is locked in a cycle that only a man with an SMV above her own can induce.

Even if that valuation is just perceptual, a woman’s Hypergamous optimization efforts will predispose her to wanting to lock that man down. This is the danger of relying on apex examples of a dynamic – women must still operate within their respective frames and within their capacity to accurately evaluate the SMV of the men she can realistically attract.

That semi-abusive Jerk boyfriend she loves so much? He’s not Channing Tatum or Brad Pitt, but contextually he’s the guy with the strength of her interest.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Sun Wukong
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@zdr01dz

Poor neighborhood = no hot women

Gonna call unequivocal bullshit here. Two of the hottest chicks I’ve ever dated came from the hood. One black, one hispanic. Meanwhile the middle-upper middle class neighborhoods I’ve lived in most of my life have been teeming with fat to average women.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot more bottom basement straight up ugly fat chicks in the hood, but hot chicks occur at about the same rates as other places. That is to say not very often, but they’re there.

zdr01dz
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@ Sun Wukong
Attractive girls in the lower class that grow up and marry out.

MikePhil
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Speaking of Deida…. Back in 2010, my now ex girlfriend gave me a copy of the The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida. Mind you, this was in my solid blue-pill days, where I believed in all of those tropes – She’s The One, Make Her Your Princess, etc. – so I went along with flow, thinking that if I read and internalized the book’s teachings, I’d be solidly set up in a relationship with a complete babe who would be completely into me. Looking back, her giving me the book (and me accepting it) was the biggest… Read more »

zdr01dz
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^^^
Didn’t come out right.

Attractive girls in the lower class grow up and marry out.

In fact I just drove through the hood a couple of hours ago. As always not one good looking woman in sight.

YaReally
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@Glenn “I’ve always had a reservation about game due to the underlying social dynamics that it implies. Part of me wanted to see a Julien as an asshole who’s level I wouldn’t sink to, lol. Why the LOL? Because at times in my life I’ve done similar things and they worked. ” Like Fight Club says: You have to give up. You have to accept that your view of the world was socially conditioned into you by people who had good intentions but were socially conditioned themselves. They put chains and locks on you and learning pickup is the process… Read more »

Blaximus
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The pedestalization aspect of finding ” hot women ” in ” upper class ” neighborhoods is troubling and patently false.

Chicks are chicks all over. If they reside in the U.S., and are not heavy cruisers ( fat ), because they can afford spa treatments, plastic surgery and expensive makeup and hair do’s ( *cough* extentions ) doesn’t truly make her ” hot “. In fact, I’d argue the more fakeness a woman displays, the bigger the CAUTION sign should be.

YaReally
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@MikePhil “Rollo uses the term “purple pill” to describe red pill truths that have been neutered and rendered safe for women, and Deida is purple all the way through.” That was the impression I got from the little bit that I read lol Couldn’t stomach it. @zdroidz “Attractive girls in the lower class grow up and marry out.” I had one fuckbuddy (HB8, also she had an office job and I was unemployed lol) who came over weekly to fuck who was engaged to a well-off dude the entire time. She called it off because the wedding was approaching and… Read more »

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@ YaReally Those upper class women are cheating on the upper class guys they lock down for provision. I know this because they cheat with guys like me. I know they cheat with guys like me because I go out and fuck them. I take it, “them” is plural for multiple guy’s wives. Assuming that’s even true it’s not a roadmap for personal success. I encourage you to purchase an affordable set of body armor and carry a safe bag in case you need to leave town fast. Doesn’t sound like you have men’s best interest at heart…sounds like you’re… Read more »

Liz
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I’ve lived in very affluent neighborhoods (I’m in one now) and also in very poor neighborhoods. I can tell you from first hand observation that women in affluent neighborhoods are on average far better looking. Yes, there are anomalies, but modeling agencies don’t exactly tour the hood…and if pickings were abundant, they would. As it is, pickins are really slim for good looking indigent girls in the US. You can see it in the high schools…but 18 those girls in the “hood” are really looking long in the tooth, many are moms. Hood women are skankier, and fatter (or extremely… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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@Dr. J- “Given that, while I would agree that social devaluing may have less of an impact on higher sexual value males, they are still being devalued to a significant degree. After all, that is one of the points of the FI – to devalue high SMV men and put them within at least sexual hookup reach of low SMV women. Yes, the top 20% SMV males in that skewed tail on Sun’s graphs are glutting themselves on low SMV women now…but they are not where they should be on a natural curve in the true mating market. Not to… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@zdr01dz Attractive girls in the lower class grow up and marry out. Neither one did. The one I dated in high school ballooned 50 lbs overweight a couple years after I left and eventually cranked out 3 kids by 3 different daddies. Became a walking stereotype even though she could have gotten out when I came back after my first year at college and asked her to stick with me for life. Her loss. The other is BPD as fuck and will never get out of the hood. Her chance to swing out came along and she couldn’t curb her… Read more »

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@ Liz
I store equipment in an industrial area and I have to drive through the hood to get to it. I can state in no uncertain terms that there are no pretty women in the hood.

Even among younger girls there aren’t many. And by the time they hit their 20s they are out.

kfg
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” . . . if your read Deida . . .”

Read him? Just look at him. He’s got that Gamma Face that stirs something inside making you want to just slap it off of him while yelling, “You’re a man goddam it, an apex predator, not some fucking rabbit.”

What is he going to teach me, how to mow the lawn . . . with my teeth?

Not Born This Morning
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@Rollo

“They “got the dream girl” but she’d turn into a nightmare and their Beta feminine pretenses of “treating a woman right” destroyed them from the inside out.”

Yup. You can go to bed with a centerfold and wake up with a vampire bat attached to your dick. Every rose has its thorn. Success has consequences. Learn to pick the roses without getting stabbed.

Blaximus
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@Liz, I straddle both worlds quite frequently. Daily, in fact. for decades. I’m in one of the most affluent areas of my state at this very moment. Maybe because I’ve trained myself to see through makeup and expensive clothes, I do not see an abundance of ” hot ” women versus the poorer areas. What I do see, for the past 30 or so years, is a Disneyland-like portrayal of the facts on the ground. People seem to want to believe. In my experience, in the ” hood “, ugly chicks can be horrifyingly ugly. They stand out and suck… Read more »

Not Born This Morning
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Deida –

Those who buy the shit he is selling deserve to eat it.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ Not Born This Morning Self denigration involves an inaccurate distorted self perception to begin with and we all tend to automatically act in ways (driven subconsciously) to create conditions that will reinforce what we think of ourselves. What happens to us is mostly within our control but we tend to blame outside systems, institutions, statistics, etc. Once a man realizes this, it is much easier for him to discard negative self perceptions, improve himself and game effectively. I generally agree with this assessment. While I think it is ultimately each man’s responsibility to discard negative self-perceptions, however, I do… Read more »

Blaximus
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@Sun,

” In fact I just drove through the hood a couple of hours ago. As always not one good looking woman in sight.

I just drove through my upper middle class white neighborhood at lunch and not a single hot woman was in sight either. It’s pretty much always the case. I suppose there’s no hot chicks living in upper middle class neighborhoods by that logic.”

The city I live in has various ” hoods “. I guarantee if you drive through the Brazilian section, you won’t drive far before seeing a hot chick or two.

rugby11ljh
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@Random Angeleno “YaReally worded this just gave me a new insight about surface communication not being as important as the subcommunications already taking place, just needs to be at least minimally congruent.” @Yareally “you need to get the fuck out there and meet a shitload of girls.” So damn true “by people who had good intentions but were socially conditioned themselves.” Family in a nutshell “Let go. Give up. Accept reality. THAT’S when you can really own your shit.” Being male @zdr01dz “Your bragging about cheating with several men’s wives and you think you’ve got men’s best interests at heart?”… Read more »

A Definite Beta Guy
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I really enjoy YaReally’s posts. They read like solid id. Don’t know how else to describe it. Just a spew of consciousness.

YaReally
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@zdroidz “Your bragging about cheating with several men’s wives and you think you’ve got men’s best interests at heart?” In an ideal world those men wouldn’t be participating in what’s basically legalized slavery in the first place, but guys like you keep luring them into it by promoting “just be rich and handsome and you won’t have to worry, you’ll get your 10 wife and live happily ever after, I’m married so everyone else should be who cares about statistics and divorce rate and family court biases! C’mon guys, work hard so you can throw that noose around your neck,… Read more »

kfg
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“WHY do their women cheat with a piece of shit like me when they have a rich good-looking husband at home? ”

Because castles and cocaine are entirely different orders of product whose quality is measured to entirely different standards.

And yes, in the real world people really will risk a paid for castle that could serve their family for generations for a hit of really good quality cocaine today.

Emily L
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I recently read this HBR article about decision-making that maps out ways to understand how/why errors in decision-making occur. It examines the automatic/instinctive/emotional response compared with the slow/logical/deliberative thought process, and discusses how the two need to operate in a balanced way in order to better solve problems. It’s a mix of business, economics and maybe psychology that maps out an interesting approach that could probably be applied to everyday decision-making (maybe not????): (1) understand how decisions are made, (2) define the problem, (3) diagnose the underlying causes, (4) design the solution, (5) test the solution. https://hbr.org/2015/05/leaders-as-decision-architects

zdr01dz
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@ YaReally
Like a thousand other guys you’re all talk. Save your spittle for someone who falls for those sorts of stories. Or alternately learn to tell the same stories in a more convincing manner.

Peace.

rugby11ljh
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@Yareally
“How deep can you bury your head in the sand to hold onto your idea of how you think the world should work?”

Well hell you already have done the work.

@Emily L
Thank you
https://hbr.org/2015/05/leaders-as-decision-architects

Liz
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“The city I live in has various ” hoods “. I guarantee if you drive through the Brazilian section, you won’t drive far before seeing a hot chick or two.”

I agree Brazilian women are pretty. I’m not sure how many Brazilian “hoods” exist in the US (or Eastern European “hoods” which would also have beautiful women). Most of our “hoods” just aren’t all that (but, I’ll agree middle class and even upper middle don’t look so great either).

Liz
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I guess, from my perspective, I don’t really understand that there’s such a vast difference between the essence of what YaReally (and others) are espousing, and what zdr01dz is saying. Attractiveness, assertive body language, social intelligence are all ‘success markers’. Social intelligence is among the most important indicators, and there have been body language studies where people practiced assertive, ‘strong’ postures for just a few minutes before job interviews and it increased their chances for success enormously…about tenfold. Women are attracted to potential as much as reality (IMO), so it stands to reason that the sort of things that would… Read more »

B
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I have a small problem with the three strikes rule when it comes to texting/arranging a date. I would consider myself lesser alpha (although after reading Alpha game I am likely more a Sigma male cause I play by my own rules and have never really given a shit about being accepted by other men..kind of a loner) I have slept with somewhere near 40 women by age 33..but didn’t get laid till 18. Was never a natural and missed out on countless opportunities in college looking back due to blue pill conditioning. Most of my mating is short term..as… Read more »

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[…] even if not every member of that group actually enjoys the privileges of that group (known as the Apex Fallacy). Think poor white boy from Appalachia … not every white male is the CEO of a Fortune 500 […]

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