Strength of Interest

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I had a couple of questions from the SoSuave Forum‘s (yes, I’m still a mod there) Judge Nismo I thought I’d take a crack at:

G’ morning Rollo. I got a couple questions for you that I don’t think you touched on in your book…or I may have overlooked.

1. What is your opinion on the Celebrity Maxim?

That is, I know you see it a lot in your Rational Male comments and on this board (i.e. Would she flake out on Brad Pitt? Would she make George Clooney wait for sex? She wouldn’t confuse Channing Tatum, etc.) I’ve even used it a lot on here, usually saying you wouldn’t fall asleep if you had a date with Katy Perry, and you wouldn’t pull a last minute flake text with Kate Upton, and you wouldn’t have to babysit if you had Shakira ready to bang!

If there’s three things I’ve learned from writing in the Manosphere for the past 12 years it’s this; no matter how apt, never use an allegory to illustrate a point, never try to relate a fictional story, movie or character to a real world dynamic and never hold up famous celebrities as common reference examples of broader, mundane dynamics.

The temptation to do so stems from a want for a common point of reference. However, appealing to a highly recognizable exemplar of a dynamic only makes picking apart the known particulars about that individual a priority – not on really grasping the dynamic itself.

I see this in the ‘sphere occasionally, and I’d be lying if I said I’d never committed these sins myself. For the most part, and certainly as far as my own readership goes, I think many of the best writers and the commentariat of the ‘sphere are very intelligent men. That’s not to account for the occasional troll, but I’ve found that even an OCD troll still needs to be clever in the ‘sphere.

That said, it’s just this preponderance of intelligence that makes men take illustrative examples as face value facts. Using celebrities as examples of commonality in purpose just smacks of the Apex Fallacy.

“….the Apex fallacy is the idea that we assign the characteristics of the highest visibility members of a group to all members of that group.”

If you’re at all familiar with the controversy surrounding the Apex Fallacy, feminists and manginas alike decided to commandeer wikipedia to paste this as a Men’s Rights misappropriation of the definition, but in actuality the true definition cuts both ways. So while women misappropriate the highest visibility men to associate a totality of the “patriarchy”, men, on the other hand, misappropriate the highest echelon men with examples of common inference of a dynamic.

In English, those celebs aren’t you or me or any layperson you deal with daily. I get the inference of course, and the message is usually one about incentives being strong enough to prompt behaviors. However, what Nismo is getting at is really less about the validity of those illustrations and more about genuine desire:

I ask since it’s quite a big trope in the manosphere…

2. What is your take on the one strike rule?

You do have a 3 strikes article on Rational Male, and I did read it. On this board, it’s quite common to see situations with chicks go like this:

– She flaked on me, she is deleted.
– She stopped responding to my texts and calls, automatic out.
– She wants to bring some friends along, sorry this is one on one.

I could go on and on, most of these situations often get read by red pill men as low interest, thus move on or become a beta orbiter. Yes, I do online dating and work 2 jobs, but I do have a one strike policy.

Sure, sometimes life will truly get in the way, but most men who are red pill will likely move on if there’s low interest. We all know not to waste time with uninterested chicks because they won’t put out. Heck, the sick excuse is often times a blow off, and lately, death in the family has been disguised as blowing someone off.

Zero Tolerance

The problem most men have with a Zero Tolerance policy is that you’re not George Clooney and you’re not Brad Pitt, but moreover, most men still cling to Blue Pill idealisms and the conditioned hope that women will see the “real” men they think women have a magical sensitivity to detect. Thus, they play by the script and hold out for the real desire they believe women should have a capacity for with them.

This is why Blue Pill men get angry at the 3-Strikes rule; that scarcity mentality colors their interaction with women to the point that anything counter to playing the patient, devoted, “prove-my-quality” white knightery role invalidates everything they’ve sacrificed and waited so patiently for up to that point.

They’re afraid of throwing the baby out with the bath water, and damn it, if you suggest doing anything other than what makes their patience worthwhile you’re a misogynistic prick.

If these men could pause with any insight they’d understand that any threshold – one strike, three strikes – suggested by myself or the manosphere isn’t about punishing a woman’s indecisiveness, but rather a pragmatic vetting meant to be efficient for men. That tolerance policy is about conservation of resources and time, not so much retribution (though I’me sure some men entertain that).

  • She flakes on you with no counter offer or marginal reframe? –
    Message: Insufficient interest
  • Stops responding to communications (and possibly resumes after a period)? – The Medium is the Message
  • Wants to bring friends along to a date? –
    Message: you are a rich resource to be exploited, or her interest is so low that she foresees a need to bring friends along to make her date with you entertaining.

The Prince with Interest

What Nismo is comparing here is really an evaluation of interest a woman has in you. I’ve gone into this in the past:

Women with high interest level (IL) wont confuse you. When a woman wants to fuck you she’ll find a way to fuck you. If she’s fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It’s when you patiently while away your time wondering what the magic formula is that’ll bring her around, that’s when you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attentions.

From an evolutionary perspective Hypergamy can’t afford to wait once a woman’s filtering mechanism is satisfied that a man passes for an Alpha. Women will break rules for Alpha men and create more rules for Beta men to have access to her. Keep in mind that first part; women will make access easy for a man she perceives as an SMV superior. Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit.

So to use the apex example, no, a woman can’t afford to confuse Channing Tatum. Mix in the behavioral influences a woman’s ovulatory chemistry predisposes her to with that SMV+ benefit perception and you’ve got dilated pupils, seductive ornamentation, lower vocal intonations and an elevated heart rate – Estrus.

As you might guess, this poses a problem for most guys because, lets face it, most of us aren’t examples of this apex. Even when we make dramatic leaps in self-improvement and physical transformation it’s hard to shake our former self-impressions and our previous degrees of self-confidence.

Back in the early days of SoSuave there was a concept we’d use that I think had a lot of merit – the concept of the Prince. For many men just coming into a Red Pill awareness meant re-imagining oneself in a new, more intrinsically valued light.

For instance, after you understand the basic psychology of why a technique like Cocky & Funny or Amused Mastery works with women, personally applying those dynamics requires a man to view himself in a more valuable context.

As I said, Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit, so it follows that a man should at least reconsider himself as that “better-than her SMV” prospect. Irrespective of that being a reality or not, the idea is a sound one. In fact it’s a law of power:

Law 25 – Re-Create Yourself

Do not accept the roles that society foists on you.  Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience.  Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define if for you. Incorporate dramatic devices into your public gestures and actions – your power will be enhanced and your character will seem larger than life.

And also:

Law 34 – Be Royal in your Own Fashion:  Act like a King to be treated like one

The way you carry yourself will often determine how you are treated; In the long run, appearing vulgar or common will make people disrespect you.  For a king respects himself and inspires the same sentiment in others.  By acting regally and confident of your powers, you make yourself seem destined to wear a crown.

In Amused Mastery, it helps to actually have some context of mastery to source as amusement.

Needless to say, asking a former Blue Pill Beta to simultaneously digest a new Red Pill awareness and revalue his self-worth is a pretty tall order. As I mention in Rejection & Revenge as a man, your existence will be defined by how you deal with rejection, so for a majority of men who’ve been hammered flat for the better part of a lifetime by women’s rejection telling him to adopt the mindset of a Prince is alien to him.

Furthermore, much of his feminine-conditioned self-perception has always taught him to be self-conscious and respectful of women’s default authority. It’s part of men’s previous Beta Game to want to identify with the feminine in order to prove how alike a man is with a woman. This conditioning is really a plan to force compliance to women’s sexual strategy from men, but it’s sold on the belief that being more feminine-like, feminine-sensitive, will set a Beta man apart from other brutish men who aren’t.

When you consider his previous degree of ego-investment in his conditioning, you can get a real appreciation of the unlearning a Red Pill man must do. It’s very difficult for most guys to consider themselves a Prince when they’ve been taught reverent deference to women all their lives.

Qualities of The Prince(ss)

A Prince’s time is valuable. His efforts and attention are gifts he bestows on the woman he’s interested in, and as such that woman’s esteem should be validated by it. She is envied by other women because of the Prince’s interest in her; it confirms there is something about her that sets her apart from other women. Her role becomes one of both humbling gratitude and excited, almost childlike, anticipations of him.

If that comes off like a pipe dream or a fake-it-till-you-make-it motivational screed, it’s because most men are so inured by a lifetime conditioning designed to hold them in the role of expectant, reverent, and deferring lover if they can perform to a woman’s standards. So ingrained is that subservience that a Princess’ acceptance of a man is exalted to an appreciation of spiritual, metaphysical, significance. God ordained her acceptance of him, the fates conspired or he “just got lucky”.

Beta men, in their Blue Pill expectations of women being rational agents, are often dumbfounded by the woman who compulsively returns over and over again to the Alpha ‘asshole’ who doesn’t respect, appreciate and love her like she deserves – like he would if she’d just come to her senses. We call that guy the emotional tampon, but what he doesn’t get is that the woman he’s orbiting is locked in a cycle that only a man with an SMV above her own can induce.

Even if that valuation is just perceptual, a woman’s Hypergamous optimization efforts will predispose her to wanting to lock that man down. This is the danger of relying on apex examples of a dynamic – women must still operate within their respective frames and within their capacity to accurately evaluate the SMV of the men she can realistically attract.

That semi-abusive Jerk boyfriend she loves so much? He’s not Channing Tatum or Brad Pitt, but contextually he’s the guy with the strength of her interest.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Sun Wukong
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zdr01dz
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hahaha, Don’t be jealous. There is a statistically significant chance that you have the highest IQ on this board. You’ve got something that everybody else wants for themselves and their children. People are jealous of you!

kfg
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Nah, it’s just uncomfortable to have a deeply held paradigm directly challenged. It’s easier to disqualify than regroove. That’s why he has to recast what I’ve said into a straw man version.

For instance, I never said anything about Penthouse models. That’s his characterization. The fact of the matter is I’ve only met one actual Penthouse Pet of the Month. Tiny little thing, cute as a button and very personable. I enjoyed chatting with her. She was selling lubricants.

Sun Wukong
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@zdr01dz

Ask a bunch of guys if they’d rather get laid any time they like by chicks they find attractive or be a genius. I would be firmly in the former camp, as I’d wager the vast majority of guys would.

Sun Wukong
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Not saying I think it’s impossible to have both or that I’m not gonna try, just that given the choice between the two being Chad Thundercock beats being Ned Nerd any day.

Jeremy
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Human DNA didn’t self-replicate by selecting for intelligence, it self-replicated by putting replication at the top of the priority list. Intelligence just made it easier to come out on top in the competition. Sun’s right, I’d rather have a guaranteed lifetime supply of varied pussy than be the smartest man in the world. Then again, I recently watched a fairly biased documentary about the Deepwater Horizon disaster. Over the course of the documentary they demonstrated details of the lifestyle of most of the salt-of-the-earth people whose fishing-industry jobs were impacted by the disaster… My mind was blown, I couldn’t relate,… Read more »

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A short note from me: Rollo, I want to thank you sincerely for your blog and your ongoing Ideas. I took a breather from posting the last week, because in real life I took a breath, stopped to smell the blooms in early May at my home and on my hunting farm. I feel the sense of Empowerment by red pill truths and better mastery (to some extent) of married man game. Empowerment in Rollo’s terms: ” The definition of Power is not financial success, status or influence over others, but the degree to which we have control over our… Read more »

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@ Sun Wukong @ Jeremy An endless supply of varied poon does sound appealing. But with a 200 IQ I could count cards in Vegas and make millions. And with those millions I could purchase an endless supply of varied poon. It’s a toss up. I’m no Mensa member. I assume from your writing that you guys are both smarter than I am. But I credit my success largely to the fact that I’m a good thinker. I had to think (and work) my way past numerous obstacles. If my IQ was 100 I’d still be delivering pizza. So for… Read more »

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@zdr01dz

But with a 200 IQ I could count cards in Vegas and make millions.

Well, if I really wanted to get rich off IQ alone, I’d worm my way in to high finance and steal like the rest of the bankers. You don’t need IQ to count cards. Just concentration, memory, and balls of steel to deal with the inevitable shit storm when they come down on you with a herd of roided up mafia palookas.

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@ Sun Wukong

Pretend you’re from Wall Street, contact Congress and tell them you need $700 Billion within 72 hours. “If money isn’t loosened up, this sucker could go down!”

This plan has worked before. You might actually get the money.

Tilikum
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@zdro1ds, Your pedestalization of KFG (GRGP) is informing. You say you’re in sales and thats interesting. Did you find the ‘sphere looking for ways to improve your close or capture rate? Maybe recently start selling intangibles and failing to make your nut? Its making sense because you are so hyper-focused on tangible “product” strengths that you literally can’t even begin to be functionally aware of abstract concepts. I submit this is why you can’t quite seem to grasp that the externalizations of a “product” are merely tools of measurement for the common denominator, and not inherent value. See, girls cant… Read more »

Glenn
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@Rollo – Thanks for linking those posts and that comment from the guy in Brazil. But for me it’s interesting to see how women are trying to be masculine, it’s like watching the early attempts of a young boy trying to act like a man. I also think in the age of open hypergamy men’s response has to change. We may be the leading edge, @Sifrellc – Amen brother. The combo punch of Tomassi and Donovan will rock your world. And I don’t think that Donovan without Tomassi would be nearly as powerful. @All – Stop feeding the troll. Don’t… Read more »

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@ Tilikum Did you find the ‘sphere looking for ways to improve your close or capture rate? If have 11 and 13 year old sons. They are just at the age that girls are beginning to enter the picture. I went looking for info for them and instead ran across the man-o-sphere. The first site that I can remember reading was Rollo’s. The article might have been this one. Good Girls Do It was an amazing article and it completely sucked me in. It is a fascinating topic. Its making sense because you are so hyper-focused on tangible “product” strengths… Read more »

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Re;Sales – Let’s take that subject a different direction. I do sales coaching for cloud startup entrepreneurs, have sold big tech to major corps my whole life and have a good track record. I also set up leadgen and sales teams for startups, and help with big deals and lighthouse client acquisition. You could say that I know a thing or two about sales… But I’m noticing that the corporate culture has changed with the rest of our culture dramatically over past few years and techniques that I once used to great effect are simply not working anymore. One of… Read more »

zdr01dz
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^^^
Guy #1 can eventually find an attractive woman who will overlook his boring personality.

Guy #2 will never be able to find an attractive woman who will overlook his lack of current and future prospects. At the very least he has to pretend he is going somewhere in the future. And he knows this.

Tilikum
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@ Glenn Let’s say I know a few things about coaching, consulting, corp sales (and corp politics) too 1. Sell women strong and give them every reason to say yes. Unshakable frame no matter how uncomfortable it gets.They hate themselves, what they leveraged for their position, and just want to feel good. LOTS of bullet pointed positives. 2. Lead with the negative (problem), close on positives (solutions). For men reverse this. 3. Foster a “you and her against the world” relationship absolutely chock full of competence. 4. Learn the body language and subtext of flirt like it’s a second, fluid… Read more »

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@ Glenn Your sales are probably very different from mine. I’m selling $1000 to maybe $10,000 at a time. 9 out of 10 times the decision maker is a man. I put in a bid for the project and make the sale maybe 50% of the time. If the guy has to talk to his partner it’s the kiss of death. I’m not getting that sale. With my other company each sale is much smaller and almost all of my customers are women. Since it’s a small amount of money the sale is almost automatic. When my phone rings or… Read more »

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@ Glenn
@ Tilikum

With me there is no schmoozing, politics and little small talk. I show up at the job site, explain the problem and what I can do about it.

My entire sales presentation is knowing and explaining information about the problem and solution. If the job looks too dangerous I pass it on to someone with equipment that is more suited to the problem. In this way I make friends with my competitors.

It sounds boring but it gets the job done. I’m in and out in minutes and make the sale half the time.

Sun Wukong
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@Rollo

Thanks again gentlemen, it means a lot. But I did hear that Aunt Giggles just cut her “coaching” rates in half ($75/hour) LMAO!

For one hour of her time I could buy both your books, all of Roosh’s, The Way of Men, and maybe even a copy of 48 Laws of Power on my tablet and get better results.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKL_EpnSp8

Just Sayin.

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Glenn, I have no sales experience whatsoever, but I did cry a tear reading Aaron Cleary’s book Enjoy the Decline. Life changes and you adapt. I might preface my thoughts by saying that ever since Napster gave me free music in 1999, I turned into these females you sell to. The digital age and Napster and torrents (a women wouldn’t recognize a torrent if it hit her in the side of the head), Facebook validation, living in the suburbs and living with a blue pill husband, the Feminine imperative “winning” like a dog catching a car. I’m not ashamed these… Read more »

sjfrellc
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Sorry for the mis-spellings. The Wild Turkey Rare-Breed is a bit too good.

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@Tilikum

“4. Learn the body language and subtext of flirt like it’s a second, fluid language. Learn to see what she is NOT doing and feed that.”

You being formless here, and a man of few words, can you expand on that second sentence with some examples?

What are examples of what she is not doing? What do you feed that lack of what she’s not doing in a sales world?

Forge the Sky
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Lol, sijfrellc, it’s always kinda fun to see how your writing style changes up after a dram or two. I don’t ever call attention to it because you have good shit to say buzzed and sober both, and because I sometimes drink’n’pound keyboard myself, but it is kinda endearing.

@ Glenn

Good to hear you got a lot out of Jack Donovan! It strikes me that it’s more a masculine tribe you lack than female attention, which is why I emphasized that. In all fairness, tho, sijfrellc had at least as much to do with recommending it, haha.

Forge the Sky
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“You being formless here, and a man of few words, can you expand on that second sentence with some examples?”

Let me second the sentiment, Tillikum, that you tend to use so few words that it’s hard to learn from you. I admire your commentary here, but don’t always know how I might apply it.

I like to think I’m a pretty cool guy overall, but like a lot of men here I can be a bit remedial regarding unrepentant, unbound masculinity lol.

Mad Yale Grad
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A few years ago when I came across Roissy veering into Masculine-Feminine Polarity territory ala Deida I called him out on it in the comments. He used Deida’s examples of the storm and the mountain and other of his yada yada. Deida’s not entirely wrong and the women certainly do lap him and his expressive movements up during his “intensives”. But damn if he ain’t physically unattractive, corny and “really in touch with his feminine side”. I guess those types of wealthy new age women love that stuff.

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“The combo punch of Tomassi and Donovan will rock your world. And I don’t think that Donovan without Tomassi would be nearly as powerful.” Both connect dots. It is not hard to understand the nature of a man being good at being a man rather that a good blue pill man. But god forgive me and you, no one ever told me this shit since 1979, the day the FI took over. So, Donovan tells the man what his true nature is and how the FI strips all of his masculine traits from him in order to make women safe… Read more »

The Diplomat
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@sjfrellc

Keep the single-malt action rolling. You’re on fire tonight–in the good way.

YaReally
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@zdroids Your sales analogy falls apart because you fundamentally don’t understand what the customer values. That’s why no one can get it through your head. We are trying to tell you that the girls don’t care about how many slices of bread the toaster you’re selling can cook at a time or how the timer automatically detects when the bread is done, and you’re sitting there going “I don’t get it, if they want to buy a toaster it’s because they want to make as much perfectly browned toast as possible! Guys, listen, they want to make lots of toasted… Read more »

zdr01dz
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This just in.

Adult Friend Finder about to be delisted from market

Interestingly the article included a gratuitous picture of one of my plates. We’ll be in touch Emily!
http://imgur.com/yZWvokQ

sjfrellc
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@ Forge “Lol, sijfrellc, it’s always kinda fun to see how your writing style changes up after a dram or two. I don’t ever call attention to it because you have good shit to say buzzed and sober both, and because I sometimes drink’n’pound keyboard myself, but it is kinda endearing” You have insight. It’s true what you say. I have control. But I don’t hesitate to Roam. Your insight is accurate that I have imbibed a bit too much in the last six months and posted comments here when drinking that may or may not have made sense. But… Read more »

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From Roissy: “IX. Connect with her emotions Set yourself apart from other men and connect with a woman’s emotional landscape. Her mind is an alien world that requires deft navigation to reach your rendezvous. Frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic. Be playful. Employ all your senses. Describe in lush detail scenarios to set her heart afire. Give your feelings freedom to roam. ROAM. Yes, that is a good word. You’re not on a linear path with her. You are ROAMING all over, taking her on an adventure. In this world, there is no… Read more »

emeraldcurtain
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Another great read Rollo, as always thanks for this space and all you do to help bring men into the light. Much of my cultural frame of reference is from American flyover country, so I can really identify with the earlier comments re the husband as draft horse, a very approachable idea for those of us who are already ‘hitched.’ By itself, this realization probably wouldn’t have driven me to seek the answers I’ve found here in the sphere- countless men have been OK with a life of husbandly toil. To continue the analogy: the angst that brought me here… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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” If we collected enough data from hundreds of thousands of dudes’ combined reference experiences and comparing notes and found that girls liked guys with black hair more than blonde hair” Some evo studies say just that. Anyway my issues with Deida began 20 years ago when my parents did an “intensive” with him. He’s not a traditionalist. Most of the people who take his seminars are divorced and will divorce again. Many are into polyamory, which I am too but I don’t have kids and they do. He speaks nothing of life long commitment. Nothing about how mom’s “playing… Read more »

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@ YaReally Your sales analogy falls apart because you fundamentally don’t understand what the customer values. I know exactly what women want. Women want a man of abundance. They want the real thing, not a phony imitation. By using game a well practiced PUA can trick a girl’s subconscious into believing he’s the man even when he’s not. It’s the reason that guys play the “amazing future” card. “I’m going to start a company” “I’m going to apply to Med School” “I’m going to make a million bucks by the time I’m 30” And it’s just a bullshit delaying tactic… Read more »

Sun Wukong
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@YaReally You gotta’ go out and pound the pavement and give your brain “proof not promises”. Haha, point taken man. Lately I have been incredibly busy getting ready for my move middle of next month (selling shit, finding an apartment, dealing with all the details, etc), working out, and trying to keep a hard pace at work by experimenting in my home lab. As soon as I move and that big time suck is out of my way, I’ll be hard at the proof. That being said, my therapist recently gave the advice that even while I’m busy, try to… Read more »

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MYG, YGBSM. STFU.I want to puke what you referenced. Please stop your childish trolling of a site you have no conviction in whose message is important to others. You cannot fathom that Deida is a fag and Donovan is not. It is on you to distinguish the difference and explain the simple difference. OR stop commenting on a red pill blog with game frame. What is your goal in commenting? Which you are not accomplishing? When have you had one of of your assertions agreed with? Why bother appearing like a douchebag to no end. Why? I have rarely seen… Read more »

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@ YaReally
BTW I’m not saying you don’t need game. You do. But some guys write from the point of view that all they need is game and building a better product is for suckers. Good luck with that plan in any area of life.

YaReally
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@zdroidz “Women want a man of abundance.” You’re looking at the surface level again, just like I tried to get through to you before. They want a man who gives them an emotional rollercoaster of ups and downs. A man with abundance GIVES them that emotional rollercoaster because he’s naturally running dread game by having options besides her, so she gets to worry that he’ll leave her and be happy when he doesn’t. It’s the same reason chicks love Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey and Soap Operas and gossip mags and Jezebel, they love the emotional ups and downs… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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LOL @ Julien’s video. “You are awesome, you are funny, you amuse me and you’re a great kisser!!!”

That wasn’t scripted at all. Totally organic.

He looks and acts like a flighty teenager. Flaling arms. No center of gravity. Completely unmasculine. Not thorough.

“Pimp, my ass”.

Ross Jeffries is at least a grown ass masculine man. Forget these little boys and check out his stuff. Or Nasheed.

YaReally
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@zdroidz “But some guys write from the point of view that all they need is game and building a better product is for suckers.” Who? Quote them. Who in the PUA community, Manosphere, or TRP community is telling guys not to build a better product WHILE learning game? Point em out, let’s see it. Since it’s so abundant that you’ve wasted everyone’s time for 4 pages of nonsense it should be easy to find a bunch of quotes. Of the top of my head I can link you multiple videos of guys in each of those communities stressing that men… Read more »

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@Sun Wukong
You earn $100,000 and you have a 150 IQ.

If I was you I’d approach every girl with the idea that I was better. Because from an objective standpoint you ARE better.

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@zdroidz See what you don’t get is that what you do HURTS men. Your ignorance you blather on about fucks up guys’ lives because they come check these communities out looking for answers but don’t know who to believe yet and you sound really super adamant in what you’re saying and it really jives with their current fucked up socially conditioned world view that hasn’t gotten them fuck all in life, so they latch onto your bullshit because it’s the nice comfortable safe easy explanation. Then they can go back to their shitty lives and never look deeper into this… Read more »

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@ YaReally Hey dummy, Reading Is Fundamental. If you want more comments go back and find them yourself. They’re scattered through the comment section. The “I’m a fat loser” but I’m regularly pursued by hot models myth is tiring. And by the way let me apologize to KFG for this. Previous to this I was off him. KFG The one in the middle is a bit of a cutie, but not as attractive as my ex-wife, who an ex-boss of mine once described as “looking like she just stepped out of the pages of Penthouse.” For whatever it may be… Read more »

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@MYG “LOL @ Julien’s video. “You are awesome, you are funny, you amuse me and you’re a great kisser!!!” That wasn’t scripted at all. Totally organic” Skip to a minute earlier where he’s creating investment by pretending to walk away and tells her to tell him why she likes him then rewards her for doing so. This is basic human psychology. All you’re doing is proving the people who are suspicious about you right. “He looks and acts like a flighty teenager. Flaling arms. No center of gravity. Completely unmasculine. Not thorough.” More credentials: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMecikWL1qQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlWrFgIR6CU Here, I’ll even give… Read more »

zdr01dz
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@ YaReally
You have a hard time with reading comprehension. I’m pro game.

Go back and reread the thread where I pointed out that Benjy Bronk from the Stern show is nuclear Alpha and scores amazing chicks because of his A game.

Yeah, this guy.
http://imgur.com/deV6wGp

YaReally
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@zdroidz “The “I’m a fat loser” but I’m regularly pursued by hot models myth is tiring.” Well shit, if you didn’t believe him then you definitely won’t believe my stories lol But that’s alright, it’s a lot easier to keep that bubble on. Just take it over to Hooking Up Smart or Jezebel where you’ll find plenty of people to agree with you and confirm your armchair theory, we discuss real world experience here. And do your sons a favor: buy them Rollo’s books so they don’t have to learn from you. I’ve rolled with guys who are as good-looking… Read more »

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@zdroidz
“I’m pro game.”

“Any man that earns $100,000 per year, has a respectable physique and good personality can lock down an HB8 – HB10. That’s the blueprint. It’s that simple.”

“But if you took away his money, fame and physical strength what use would he be to his wife?”

You fundamentally don’t understand what game is.

YaReally
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ok troll pounding over for today, enjoy the vids all there are some good ones in mod at the moment

zdr01dz
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@ YaReally

Until you learn to read life is going to be difficult for you. I see that now.

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@ YaReally
You fundamentally don’t understand what game is.

Of course I understand what game is. It’s job is to entertain women and at the same time confirm to them that you possess abundance. If you don’t have abundance you’re simply tricking their instincts into thinking you do.

stuttie
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@ YaReally – Great breakdown. I re read parts of MM before I went out Gaming last Saturday night. You’re right, it is the golden bible of game. Each time I brush up on MM I always get a new nugget of gold. This time it was “What most people do wrong when approaching” by Style. The bit about entering a set with slightly higher ‘energy levels’ works a treat in the field.

@ sales discussion thread –

Read ‘Pitch Anything’ by Oren Klaff. It’s a brilliant red pill book about sales. I found it via the Chateau.

Badpainter
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Zdro1dz – “For whatever it may be worth, she also had a degree with honors from one of the top rated, exclusive private colleges in New England…”

And we all know what that’s worth ( hint: MYG).

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@Badpainter “Wear the costumes, claim the status, take the names and titles and wonder why the result don’t automatically manifest. Then blame the men for not being supportive.” So that’s weird because here in DC that happens a lot… My biology doesn’t respect your made up status. @zdr01dz “So for that I’m eternally grateful to the universe.” Me to buddy @Forge the sky “unrepentant, unbound masculinity” That is Rugby… Least a good game of it… @sjfrellc “I spent 25 years not knowing what it took to bring a woman to me. Instead of me lean into her. I one day… Read more »

Tilikum
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Painful. Jesus.

Glenn
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@All – Guys, stop feeding the troll. It will not go away if you respond to it or mention it. You guys seem very sophisticated socially so I’m kind of stunned why you can’t get this – ignore the troll. We want it gone and that’s what will do it. @Tilikum, The Diplomat and many others on this thread – Re: Sales, game etc . Fuck. Wow, the things that have opened up for me recently make me realize several things. Perhaps some older guys here can relate. Amused Mastery – I keep saying that I’m in a “high flake… Read more »

Tilikum
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I have been thinking of a succinct word or phrase to describe the obvious (to me) link in female behavior, politics, markets, and some of this threads commenters more (ahem) robust defense of their observationally broken worldviews and I found it:

Speculative Distortion

Glenn
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@Tilikum – How about passive/aggressive defensive panic? Not that I don’t like Speculative Distortion but what’s really at work is that they are panicked and desperately casting about for anything that might work, but don’t know what it might be so they just keep pushing. I have been guilty of that for sure, in my own way. It’s like a sea creature that stirs up a cloud of silt to confuse a predator. I’ve always had a reservation about game due to the underlying social dynamics that it implies. Part of me wanted to see a Julien as an asshole… Read more »

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@ YaReally 12:56 AM You are quite correct, as always RE: my style not being for everyone. I am a natural and came from a long, long, long line of them so I was taught on that modeled behavior (both the positives like having a dynamic personality, and the negatives like the desire of those around me who would try and control that via socialization, thanks mom). The sphere helped me put words around concepts I internally understood and let me triple my already high social IQ by giving me new brain food. Rollo’s best post to lend to this… Read more »

walawala
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Hypergamy case study:

walawala
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walawala
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sorry, should be this: Joan Crawford

walawala
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Try it again…Joan Crawford a case study in Hypergamy. This little documentary talks at length about how she was a “Showgirl” who constantly married up…first with Hollywood royalty Douglas Fairbanks Jr. Then banged Clark Gable, then ploughed through a series of marriages each of very powerful rich betas from whom she derived wealth and status.

Eventually the wall caught up with her…sad…everything in this blog is featured in this vignette

Glenn
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@Tilikum – Don’t stop pressing your view here, coming from a place of mastery. I bet there are many guys like me who have been somewhat natural who can learn greatly from your high level advice – I know I do. Thanks for the share on the Medium is the Message post as one of the things I’m trying to figure out is how to maintain this frame of mind and what resources and daily practices I could put in place to do so. I’m all about improvement – those who aren’t, well, there will always be those guys, right?… Read more »

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@ Tilikum This specific post is one I mentally refer to EVERY SINGLE DAY as I move through the world harvesting from the meek. I’m glad you wrote that because it explains why we don’t see eye to eye. Your stated daily goal is to extract resources from people that are weaker than you are. In other words (I write this without judgement) your niche in the social ecosystem is that of an opportunistic parasite. So when I write that it’s critical to focus on the tangible benefits a guy brings to the table it sounds crazy or out of… Read more »

Mad Yale Grad
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What about that RSD “in field” video where there go into an empty park in California, and two 20 year old girls *just happen* to be sitting alone at picnic table in this otherwise empty park?

I’ve a sand castle on Venice beach. Its for sale.

azdoidz,

Of course I understand what game is. It’s job is to entertain women and at the same time confirm to them that you possess abundance. If you don’t have abundance you’re simply tricking their instincts into thinking you do.”

Abundance of attitude.

Mad Yale Grad
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“This specific post is one I mentally refer to EVERY SINGLE DAY as I move through the world harvesting from the meek.”

Like Sea World harvests from Tilikum?

Glenn
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@Tilikum – What galls those here freaking out is that they are the meek you have been harvesting from. I used to harvest from the meek and then became one of the meek you were harvesting from.

Not any longer though…

@Zdroidz – Denial isn’t a river in Egypt…

Glenn
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@Zdroidz – Have you ever noticed how women enjoy male dominance, particularly in bed? Is that parasitic – cuz the more I focus on using a women for my pleasure and stop thinking about how she is perceiving it, the more she cums. If you think that’s “parasitic”, what on earth are you doing here? And why does everyone in my life keep coming back for more when I behave that way? These same people reject me when I’m being the “good man” you seem to be criticizing Tilikum for not being. You are shaming the entire basis for this… Read more »

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And now I’m going to breach my own “don’t feed the troll” protocol. @MYG – It’s not that you don’t “understand” what’s going on here at some intellectual level, it’s that you are alienated from your own identity so utterly that you haven’t internalized it. That’s okay. I’ve been through my own version of it, we all have. But just get that you are not doing the kind of work that will get you beyond your blindspot, instead you are a digging deeper ditch for you to die in. If you are a woman, oh well, it doesn’t matter to… Read more »

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@ Glenn
Have you ever noticed how women enjoy male dominance, particularly in bed?
Any man that focuses on technique instead of dominance isn’t doing it right. Dominance communicates to her that you’re worth having. Since her self worth is attached to yours this attitude charges her up.

If you go back and re-read the thread you’ll see my points of disagreement are a lot more subtle that what some of the dummies that lack reading comprehension and went full cardiac might think.

zdr01dz
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^^^
Not referring to you btw.

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@ Glenn
Without spending 10 pages I can boil this conflict down to 1 schism.

This is what I find tiring.
1) I’m a big fat loser with no current or future prospects and I’m regularly pursued by hot models that possess cones of beauty that stop traffic.

Same guy 5 posts later
2) Girls dramatically overvalue themselves.

zdr01dz
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^^^^
So where is this guy getting feedback that girls overvalue themselves? It’s not from the squad of Playboy Bunnies that can’t get enough of him because of his A game.

Badpainter
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zdro1dz – “So where is this guy getting feedback that girls overvalue themselves?”

ummm…observations of actual people in real life?

Dan
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I still feel the right people find each other,like attracts like. Yes we can improve ourselves and red pill teck is good understanding. However,where does the full spyche/soul understanding reach through it all to give us a real picture. Yes we can become panty sniffers,poonani chasers or like they like to say here in France, shasseur de jupe. If you really know your essence and full extention then life becomes different, still wine,women and song but deeper. Everyone has their traits,their predispositions/propensities , so let us not confuse teck in all forms with natural abilities,and know that psy teck,in all… Read more »

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@ Badpainter
ummm…observations of actual people in real life?

That’s one possibility. There are others you may want to consider.

Dr. Jeremy
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@ zdro1ds This is what I find tiring. 1) I’m a big fat loser with no current or future prospects and I’m regularly pursued by hot models that possess cones of beauty that stop traffic. Same guy 5 posts later 2) Girls dramatically overvalue themselves. From a certain perspective, both of these things can be true…with a few paradigm refinements. For the connection, begin by looking at Sun’s OK Cupid graphs on page one of this discussion. As we can see, women are not overvaluing themselves, or being overvalued by men…women are undervaluing men. This undervaluation comes from two sources:… Read more »

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@ Tilikum

I don’t mean to be critical of your style. It’s just frustrating for me, I read them and sometimes it feels like I’m so close to breaking into some new mindset but I’m not quite there yet. I don’t think you’re being intentionally enigmatic, it’s just a bit beyond me yet.

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@ Dr. Jeremy

I understand your point and on some level you are exactly right. If men can’t offer something tangible at least they can offer game (i.e. entertainment and the appearance of abundance).

However if a product loses it’s utility that product is doomed. You’ll never trade your car in for a horse no matter how big and cute it’s eyes are.

Since the earliest humans men have been valued for their output. That’s engrained in our DNA. It’s why men are larger than women. Without output we’re only useful for the occasional hookup.

Badpainter
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zdro1ds – “That’s one possibility. There are others you may want to consider.”

I did, but wanted an explanation that would:

1.apply to everyone
2.allow both of your statements to be true but not create contradictions
3.be testable by those of us not involved directly in the debate

If what you’re actually trying to say is that those you’re arguing with are “full of shit” then I suggest you risk harming your credibility by pussyfooting around the issue with a debate that ultimately goes nowhere.

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@ Dr. Jeremy

I should add that women haven’t been devalued by technology or society. This may be expressed in different ways but ultimately men are looking for companionship.

So we’ve got a situation where if a man has good output he can find a good companion. The men in the top 20% are doing great because they still offer utility. The rest of the male population is struggling.

Not Born This Morning
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@Dr. Jeremy “This undervaluation comes from two sources: 1) On a practical level, as I said above, women need men less for survival due to laws, social supports, careers, etc. 2) On an emotional level, social programming teaches women that men and masculinity are a joke – e.g. see every sitcom.” Women’s hypergamy is hard wired. They cannot escape their innate drive that their DNA mandates no matter what the current social cultural construct seems to be. They ardently desire a physically fit masculine self confident male regardless and they will break all the social rules or promises they make… Read more »

Dr. Jeremy
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@ zdro1dz However if a product loses it’s utility that product is doomed… Without output we’re only useful for the occasional hookup. Agreed…and the long-term product is indeed doomed right now in many ways. That is why fewer and fewer people are getting or staying married. As social engineering strips men of more and more utility, it will get worse too. That is also why the manosphere seems to collect three types of men: 1) Men who want to have high utility in relationships, find a woman who still has a need for him, and have a long-term mutual exchange.… Read more »

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@ Not Born This Morning
They ardently desire a physically fit masculine self confident male regardless and they will break all the social rules or promises they make for themselves to fuck one given the opportunity.

I might change “fuck” to “lock down”.

Any middle aged, fat-skinny, HB4 woman can set up a free account on Ashley Madison and guzzle alpha semen by the gallon every night of the week. If a woman is interested in NSA sex she won’t encounter so much as a speed bump.

For reference.
http://imgur.com/9vael8r

kfg
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“I’m a big fat loser . . .”, etc.

Nice straw man ya got there. Make it yourself?

zdr01dz
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@ Dr. Jeremy As social engineering strips men of more and more utility, it will get worse too. Yep. When my wife was a little girl (not sure which grade) the teacher asked all the kids what they wanted to be when they grew up. She said “I want to be a mom.” The teacher corrected her and made her come up with a different answer. That wasn’t an acceptable response. An honestly I think motherhood is the single factor that can save men’s utility. Women need a man that can support a family so they can stay at home… Read more »

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@ Not Born This Morning While women certainly do have evolved sexual preferences, their sexual behavior is also more easily influenced by social factors than men too. It is called Sexual Plasticity. Thus, while women do look for a +1 hypergamous fit, how they appraise male fitness is influenced by situational, social, cultural, and psychological factors. Given that, while I would agree that social devaluing may have less of an impact on higher sexual value males, they are still being devalued to a significant degree. After all, that is one of the points of the FI – to devalue high… Read more »

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@Rollo, I know this type of garbage is the new paradigm, but it still makes me gnash my teeth when I read/see examples of it. Hoes man, hoes. ” Her views on gender relations are of a modified-traditionalist strain. “In the workplace, it should be equal,” she says. “But in the house, the only way it works is if there’s a strong masculine and feminine component. You need to give your husband a blow job every day. He should feel like a king. Seeking it out in my sexual life is to make up for it in my real life.… Read more »

key
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yareally origin revealed in stream of consciousness post:

“How “yes” IS that “yes” REALLY?”

brilliant

Blaximus
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…Knowledge and understanding will save my brothers. Come over to the Red side!!!!

rugby11ljh
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@Tilikum
“Speculative Distortion”
Yeah that apply’s to me
Still have blue an me and more with red.

@Glenn
“That given half a chance, they and I would jump at the chance to be beta.”
Don’t want that ever again.

@Not born this morning
“They cannot and will not undervalue a sexually high value male.”
First threesome I messed up was because I didn’t maintain frame and I think was directly related to this.

@SFC Ton
Movnat
My main workout with the redpill
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SKGF-ErsJiI

Liz
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Rollo: “Well,…yeah. http://www.gq.com/news-politics/mens-lives/201310/ashley-madison-affair-cheating-site?currentPage=3“ Wow. That was quite a read. “I really can’t show you my apartment,” I tell Laura as I hail her a taxi. Tomorrow she’ll e-mail me that she wrote an essay about our encounter on the ride home; a week later, that she’s left her husband and that “I bet the next time that I do have mind-blowing sex it will not be with someone who is married.” Then, a few weeks after, that she’s quit her job. She wants to be a writer, and asks me for advice.” I wonder if this journalist has a different… Read more »

Random Angeleno
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When you get solid eye-contact with a girl, often the surface level conversation dies off to just half-sentences that trail off and you both feel crazy intense chemistry. You can purposely spark this (YouTube Liam McRae Rapid Escalation and check my archive for the related Gambler and Robbie Williams videos on laser eye-contact). But what’s happening here is that you both switch to subcommunications…My way of describing it is it’s like you two are sitting at a table talking to eachother but having a secret text message conversation on your phones below the table that other people can’t read. So… Read more »

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“@All – Guys, stop feeding the troll. It will not go away if you respond to it or mention it. You guys seem very sophisticated socially so I’m kind of stunned why you can’t get this – ignore the troll. We want it gone and that’s what will do it.” lol just wanted to mention that I don’t post rebuttals for the sake of convincing the troll themselves. They’re a lost cause, they have no interest or reason to change their views and I don’t really care about them. When I post stuff like that it’s for the guys who… Read more »

zdr01dz
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I go out to do some work for a few hours and you guys can’t get this thread to 500! C’mon!

kfg
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“When I post stuff like that it’s for the guys who are lurking and who will see this archived a month or a year or 5 years from now when they’re looking for answers.”

Exactly.

zdr01dz
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@ YaReally

I’m sure you’re a good guy and you mean well. Some of your ideas like focusing on game have merit.

But you’re worldview is fundamentally wrong.

Poor neighborhood = no hot women
Middle class neighborhood = a sprinkling of hot women
Upper class = many hot women

That’s not an accident.

Is hs/college different? yes
Is hookup culture different? yes
Is game important? yes
But over the long run fundamentals rule any marketplace.

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