Strength of Interest

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I had a couple of questions from the SoSuave Forum‘s (yes, I’m still a mod there) Judge Nismo I thought I’d take a crack at:

G’ morning Rollo. I got a couple questions for you that I don’t think you touched on in your book…or I may have overlooked.

1. What is your opinion on the Celebrity Maxim?

That is, I know you see it a lot in your Rational Male comments and on this board (i.e. Would she flake out on Brad Pitt? Would she make George Clooney wait for sex? She wouldn’t confuse Channing Tatum, etc.) I’ve even used it a lot on here, usually saying you wouldn’t fall asleep if you had a date with Katy Perry, and you wouldn’t pull a last minute flake text with Kate Upton, and you wouldn’t have to babysit if you had Shakira ready to bang!

If there’s three things I’ve learned from writing in the Manosphere for the past 12 years it’s this; no matter how apt, never use an allegory to illustrate a point, never try to relate a fictional story, movie or character to a real world dynamic and never hold up famous celebrities as common reference examples of broader, mundane dynamics.

The temptation to do so stems from a want for a common point of reference. However, appealing to a highly recognizable exemplar of a dynamic only makes picking apart the known particulars about that individual a priority – not on really grasping the dynamic itself.

I see this in the ‘sphere occasionally, and I’d be lying if I said I’d never committed these sins myself. For the most part, and certainly as far as my own readership goes, I think many of the best writers and the commentariat of the ‘sphere are very intelligent men. That’s not to account for the occasional troll, but I’ve found that even an OCD troll still needs to be clever in the ‘sphere.

That said, it’s just this preponderance of intelligence that makes men take illustrative examples as face value facts. Using celebrities as examples of commonality in purpose just smacks of the Apex Fallacy.

“….the Apex fallacy is the idea that we assign the characteristics of the highest visibility members of a group to all members of that group.”

If you’re at all familiar with the controversy surrounding the Apex Fallacy, feminists and manginas alike decided to commandeer wikipedia to paste this as a Men’s Rights misappropriation of the definition, but in actuality the true definition cuts both ways. So while women misappropriate the highest visibility men to associate a totality of the “patriarchy”, men, on the other hand, misappropriate the highest echelon men with examples of common inference of a dynamic.

In English, those celebs aren’t you or me or any layperson you deal with daily. I get the inference of course, and the message is usually one about incentives being strong enough to prompt behaviors. However, what Nismo is getting at is really less about the validity of those illustrations and more about genuine desire:

I ask since it’s quite a big trope in the manosphere…

2. What is your take on the one strike rule?

You do have a 3 strikes article on Rational Male, and I did read it. On this board, it’s quite common to see situations with chicks go like this:

– She flaked on me, she is deleted.
– She stopped responding to my texts and calls, automatic out.
– She wants to bring some friends along, sorry this is one on one.

I could go on and on, most of these situations often get read by red pill men as low interest, thus move on or become a beta orbiter. Yes, I do online dating and work 2 jobs, but I do have a one strike policy.

Sure, sometimes life will truly get in the way, but most men who are red pill will likely move on if there’s low interest. We all know not to waste time with uninterested chicks because they won’t put out. Heck, the sick excuse is often times a blow off, and lately, death in the family has been disguised as blowing someone off.

Zero Tolerance

The problem most men have with a Zero Tolerance policy is that you’re not George Clooney and you’re not Brad Pitt, but moreover, most men still cling to Blue Pill idealisms and the conditioned hope that women will see the “real” men they think women have a magical sensitivity to detect. Thus, they play by the script and hold out for the real desire they believe women should have a capacity for with them.

This is why Blue Pill men get angry at the 3-Strikes rule; that scarcity mentality colors their interaction with women to the point that anything counter to playing the patient, devoted, “prove-my-quality” white knightery role invalidates everything they’ve sacrificed and waited so patiently for up to that point.

They’re afraid of throwing the baby out with the bath water, and damn it, if you suggest doing anything other than what makes their patience worthwhile you’re a misogynistic prick.

If these men could pause with any insight they’d understand that any threshold – one strike, three strikes – suggested by myself or the manosphere isn’t about punishing a woman’s indecisiveness, but rather a pragmatic vetting meant to be efficient for men. That tolerance policy is about conservation of resources and time, not so much retribution (though I’me sure some men entertain that).

  • She flakes on you with no counter offer or marginal reframe? –
    Message: Insufficient interest
  • Stops responding to communications (and possibly resumes after a period)? – The Medium is the Message
  • Wants to bring friends along to a date? –
    Message: you are a rich resource to be exploited, or her interest is so low that she foresees a need to bring friends along to make her date with you entertaining.

The Prince with Interest

What Nismo is comparing here is really an evaluation of interest a woman has in you. I’ve gone into this in the past:

Women with high interest level (IL) wont confuse you. When a woman wants to fuck you she’ll find a way to fuck you. If she’s fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It’s when you patiently while away your time wondering what the magic formula is that’ll bring her around, that’s when you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attentions.

From an evolutionary perspective Hypergamy can’t afford to wait once a woman’s filtering mechanism is satisfied that a man passes for an Alpha. Women will break rules for Alpha men and create more rules for Beta men to have access to her. Keep in mind that first part; women will make access easy for a man she perceives as an SMV superior. Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit.

So to use the apex example, no, a woman can’t afford to confuse Channing Tatum. Mix in the behavioral influences a woman’s ovulatory chemistry predisposes her to with that SMV+ benefit perception and you’ve got dilated pupils, seductive ornamentation, lower vocal intonations and an elevated heart rate – Estrus.

As you might guess, this poses a problem for most guys because, lets face it, most of us aren’t examples of this apex. Even when we make dramatic leaps in self-improvement and physical transformation it’s hard to shake our former self-impressions and our previous degrees of self-confidence.

Back in the early days of SoSuave there was a concept we’d use that I think had a lot of merit – the concept of the Prince. For many men just coming into a Red Pill awareness meant re-imagining oneself in a new, more intrinsically valued light.

For instance, after you understand the basic psychology of why a technique like Cocky & Funny or Amused Mastery works with women, personally applying those dynamics requires a man to view himself in a more valuable context.

As I said, Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit, so it follows that a man should at least reconsider himself as that “better-than her SMV” prospect. Irrespective of that being a reality or not, the idea is a sound one. In fact it’s a law of power:

Law 25 – Re-Create Yourself

Do not accept the roles that society foists on you.  Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience.  Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define if for you. Incorporate dramatic devices into your public gestures and actions – your power will be enhanced and your character will seem larger than life.

And also:

Law 34 – Be Royal in your Own Fashion:  Act like a King to be treated like one

The way you carry yourself will often determine how you are treated; In the long run, appearing vulgar or common will make people disrespect you.  For a king respects himself and inspires the same sentiment in others.  By acting regally and confident of your powers, you make yourself seem destined to wear a crown.

In Amused Mastery, it helps to actually have some context of mastery to source as amusement.

Needless to say, asking a former Blue Pill Beta to simultaneously digest a new Red Pill awareness and revalue his self-worth is a pretty tall order. As I mention in Rejection & Revenge as a man, your existence will be defined by how you deal with rejection, so for a majority of men who’ve been hammered flat for the better part of a lifetime by women’s rejection telling him to adopt the mindset of a Prince is alien to him.

Furthermore, much of his feminine-conditioned self-perception has always taught him to be self-conscious and respectful of women’s default authority. It’s part of men’s previous Beta Game to want to identify with the feminine in order to prove how alike a man is with a woman. This conditioning is really a plan to force compliance to women’s sexual strategy from men, but it’s sold on the belief that being more feminine-like, feminine-sensitive, will set a Beta man apart from other brutish men who aren’t.

When you consider his previous degree of ego-investment in his conditioning, you can get a real appreciation of the unlearning a Red Pill man must do. It’s very difficult for most guys to consider themselves a Prince when they’ve been taught reverent deference to women all their lives.

Qualities of The Prince(ss)

A Prince’s time is valuable. His efforts and attention are gifts he bestows on the woman he’s interested in, and as such that woman’s esteem should be validated by it. She is envied by other women because of the Prince’s interest in her; it confirms there is something about her that sets her apart from other women. Her role becomes one of both humbling gratitude and excited, almost childlike, anticipations of him.

If that comes off like a pipe dream or a fake-it-till-you-make-it motivational screed, it’s because most men are so inured by a lifetime conditioning designed to hold them in the role of expectant, reverent, and deferring lover if they can perform to a woman’s standards. So ingrained is that subservience that a Princess’ acceptance of a man is exalted to an appreciation of spiritual, metaphysical, significance. God ordained her acceptance of him, the fates conspired or he “just got lucky”.

Beta men, in their Blue Pill expectations of women being rational agents, are often dumbfounded by the woman who compulsively returns over and over again to the Alpha ‘asshole’ who doesn’t respect, appreciate and love her like she deserves – like he would if she’d just come to her senses. We call that guy the emotional tampon, but what he doesn’t get is that the woman he’s orbiting is locked in a cycle that only a man with an SMV above her own can induce.

Even if that valuation is just perceptual, a woman’s Hypergamous optimization efforts will predispose her to wanting to lock that man down. This is the danger of relying on apex examples of a dynamic – women must still operate within their respective frames and within their capacity to accurately evaluate the SMV of the men she can realistically attract.

That semi-abusive Jerk boyfriend she loves so much? He’s not Channing Tatum or Brad Pitt, but contextually he’s the guy with the strength of her interest.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

533 comments on “Strength of Interest

  1. @zdroidz
    “I’m pro game.”

    “Any man that earns $100,000 per year, has a respectable physique and good personality can lock down an HB8 – HB10. That’s the blueprint. It’s that simple.”

    “But if you took away his money, fame and physical strength what use would he be to his wife?”

    You fundamentally don’t understand what game is.

  2. @ YaReally
    You fundamentally don’t understand what game is.

    Of course I understand what game is. It’s job is to entertain women and at the same time confirm to them that you possess abundance. If you don’t have abundance you’re simply tricking their instincts into thinking you do.

  3. @ YaReally – Great breakdown. I re read parts of MM before I went out Gaming last Saturday night. You’re right, it is the golden bible of game. Each time I brush up on MM I always get a new nugget of gold. This time it was “What most people do wrong when approaching” by Style. The bit about entering a set with slightly higher ‘energy levels’ works a treat in the field.

    @ sales discussion thread –

    Read ‘Pitch Anything’ by Oren Klaff. It’s a brilliant red pill book about sales. I found it via the Chateau.

  4. Zdro1dz – “For whatever it may be worth, she also had a degree with honors from one of the top rated, exclusive private colleges in New England…”

    And we all know what that’s worth ( hint: MYG).

    1. @Badpainter
      “Wear the costumes, claim the status, take the names and titles and wonder why the result don’t automatically manifest. Then blame the men for not being supportive.”

      So that’s weird because here in DC that happens a lot…
      My biology doesn’t respect your made up status.

      @zdr01dz
      “So for that I’m eternally grateful to the universe.”
      Me to buddy

      @Forge the sky
      “unrepentant, unbound masculinity”
      That is Rugby… Least a good game of it…

      @sjfrellc
      “I spent 25 years not knowing what it took to bring a woman to me. Instead of me lean into her. I one day might elaborate on my “hobbies”. All 4 million of them. I have always been a man on a mission, but not often aligned with what passions or pursuits my wife had or wanted. Kind of like going my own way in a hobby in marriage. None of that shit I wanted was an interest of hers.”

      Kinda wanna talk to you about anatomy and dermatology now…

      @emeraldcurtain
      “Young men take note- these guys are NOT FUCKING KIDDING when they talk about the necessity of starting with and keeping a solid frame.”
      Will do keep trying to do better each min of each day…

      @Sun wukong

      “That being said, my therapist recently gave the advice that even while I’m busy, try to maintain dominance in every interaction I have in a day and try to initiate more interactions than necessary to get more practice.”

      For me going to new places helps a lot. Putting myself in the most terrifying new situations helps as well. The brain needs healing after some serious emotional toxic and frozen blue pill investment in religion and feminization.

      “Get out of the fucking way, brain. Let me think.”

      I believe in you Sun

  5. @All – Guys, stop feeding the troll. It will not go away if you respond to it or mention it. You guys seem very sophisticated socially so I’m kind of stunned why you can’t get this – ignore the troll. We want it gone and that’s what will do it.

    @Tilikum, The Diplomat and many others on this thread – Re: Sales, game etc . Fuck. Wow, the things that have opened up for me recently make me realize several things. Perhaps some older guys here can relate.

    Amused Mastery – I keep saying that I’m in a “high flake rate game” but the truth is that I only go so far and then really don’t know what to do next. I get thrown out of my frame. I’ve actually only partially accepted game and only do some of the things well or effectively. The women who make it through do have real interest in me but I could do so much better. The 19 yr old who flaked a couple of weekends ago, after asking me out, occurred because I disrupted her fantasy. I lost my way halfway through. I’ve had 4 successes in the past year, but so many situations where I fucked it up.

    I think this is due to me not accepting a very basic level my own masculinity and putting myself first, I mean feeling it in my gut rather than intellectually. The funny thing is that I was a quasi natural when I was younger, in that when I see the tactics used in these videos for approach I can recall doing similarly daring things that women always reacted well to, but again, even back in those days I would lose the frame a lot. Now that I’ve fully accepted my masculinity I feel like a beginner at game – and that’s actually fine.

    Club/bar game is over for me but in other settings I use Amused Mastery like crazy and I’ve now realized that once I’ve opened, it’s pretty much the same. I’ve been tentative and giving control back to the girls after generating the initial interest. Wow.

    Sales – Ditto. I know the “roaming” thing intuitively. I go in with strong frame and encourage them to open up. I’m often playful with women in business settings and it’s amazing what works. But then I weaken my frame, expecting them to take charge like a male-buyer usually does in a sales cycle. In fact, my entire fuckup selling to women is that I stop dominating. With men it’s different, you kind of end up sharing the frame, but even then I’m starting to realize that many beta men in corporate America want to be dominated.

    Wow, just had another deep realization. The beating the FI administered had me give up being dominant in the way I was naturally when I was younger. That’s when I got all that pussy and closed all those massive deals – I was never thrown off my game/focus/frame in those days. Somehow I’ve missed that and really, I’ve been inconsistent in sales ever since. Wow. Fuck. Holy shit.

    But really, it’s just fantastic to see all this as I’m about moving forward and making progress and I can work on all this. I’ve known without being able to see it clearly for a while that something was off but haven’t been able to deal with it. It’s like the Blue Pill got shoved down my throat without me knowing. The FI informed world definitely conspires to beat natural alphaness out of men. I’ve heard many guys here talk about how they had natural alphaness with women when they were younger but as they get older they change. I did that too. Everywhere. With my daughter even. And that’s why she hates me now. Holy fuck.

    The good news? That basic dominance has come back a bit and I have some history that makes all this familiar and sensible to me. But what I haven’t done is admit that I’m a beginner as I’ve been hanging onto a shred of the old rule book without knowing it. Seeing how utterly ridiculous our feminized culture is and how it makes men and women so fucked up and miserable, after Jack Donovan, now has killed that delusion.

    Even better news? I’m a reader. I’m a learner. I’m already working on my physique as hard as I can. I’ve improved my fashion and don’t have any resistance to game anymore. Time to jump in much more deeply and play full out. It’s nice to have a young face and enough hair on my head to pass for 40. Older guys really can stand out by being quite fit and fashionable, and along with Amused Mastery it’s catnip for a certain kind of young hottie.

    Okay, back to learning mode. Nice.

    Great thread guys, and remember, DON’T FEED THE TROLL. IF WE IGNORE IT, IT WILL GO AWAY

  6. I have been thinking of a succinct word or phrase to describe the obvious (to me) link in female behavior, politics, markets, and some of this threads commenters more (ahem) robust defense of their observationally broken worldviews and I found it:

    Speculative Distortion

  7. @Tilikum – How about passive/aggressive defensive panic? Not that I don’t like Speculative Distortion but what’s really at work is that they are panicked and desperately casting about for anything that might work, but don’t know what it might be so they just keep pushing. I have been guilty of that for sure, in my own way. It’s like a sea creature that stirs up a cloud of silt to confuse a predator.

    I’ve always had a reservation about game due to the underlying social dynamics that it implies. Part of me wanted to see a Julien as an asshole who’s level I wouldn’t sink to, lol. Why the LOL? Because at times in my life I’ve done similar things and they worked.

    I think that it could be huge for guys who are resisting and arguing against game to consider that their resistance arises due to their holding out some hope at some level that this really isn’t the way things are. That given half a chance, they and I would jump at the chance to be beta providers/protectors again at some basic level. My resistance is actually a trail of breadcrumbs to the truth if I’m willing to follow the trail where it leads without blinking.

    Okay, I’ve got a ton of work to do but this is all so great. So many revelations and changes and breakthroughs the past few days, it’s amazing. Now, to crush some prospects and do the voodoo that I know I can do without reservation.

  8. @ YaReally 12:56 AM

    You are quite correct, as always RE: my style not being for everyone.

    I am a natural and came from a long, long, long line of them so I was taught on that modeled behavior (both the positives like having a dynamic personality, and the negatives like the desire of those around me who would try and control that via socialization, thanks mom). The sphere helped me put words around concepts I internally understood and let me triple my already high social IQ by giving me new brain food.

    Rollo’s best post to lend to this discussion was:

    http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/06/the-medium-is-the-message/

    and it encapsulates what we are both saying but maybe some of these guys need a third voice. This specific post is one I mentally refer to EVERY SINGLE DAY as I move through the world harvesting from the meek.

    While my style is not for everyone (hell, anyone lol) I am attempting to be a bit more accommodating as practice for some near term needs re: explaining the world to unenlightened and young minds. I’m just not super patient with people on sites like this who can’t see the matrix streaming in front of them and that argue the same flawed position that got them to find this place. It’s…tedium. I prefer actual improvement vs. incessant theoretical study.

  9. Try it again…Joan Crawford a case study in Hypergamy. This little documentary talks at length about how she was a “Showgirl” who constantly married up…first with Hollywood royalty Douglas Fairbanks Jr. Then banged Clark Gable, then ploughed through a series of marriages each of very powerful rich betas from whom she derived wealth and status.

    Eventually the wall caught up with her…sad…everything in this blog is featured in this vignette

  10. @Tilikum – Don’t stop pressing your view here, coming from a place of mastery. I bet there are many guys like me who have been somewhat natural who can learn greatly from your high level advice – I know I do. Thanks for the share on the Medium is the Message post as one of the things I’m trying to figure out is how to maintain this frame of mind and what resources and daily practices I could put in place to do so.

    I’m all about improvement – those who aren’t, well, there will always be those guys, right? Also keep in mind that on most websites like this, most contributions come from a tiny fraction of the readers and that more than 90% are just lurking/reading and will never, ever comment – do it for them. And loudmouths like me too of course!

    It took me a long time to get you – that’s on me, not you. Same thing happened when I was a Buddhist, but my master never dumbed it down for me. He just smiled and recognized I was on my own path and that he could only hold out a light for me to get glimpses of far down that path to keep me working at it. And then one day – blammo. Like just happened with me here.

    Yeah baby, very yeah. Have already had a breakthrough with my current 20 yr old plate, tee hee. She’s actually been begging for me to lead her…

  11. @ Tilikum
    This specific post is one I mentally refer to EVERY SINGLE DAY as I move through the world harvesting from the meek.

    I’m glad you wrote that because it explains why we don’t see eye to eye.

    Your stated daily goal is to extract resources from people that are weaker than you are. In other words (I write this without judgement) your niche in the social ecosystem is that of an opportunistic parasite.

    So when I write that it’s critical to focus on the tangible benefits a guy brings to the table it sounds crazy or out of touch with reality. From your point of view it makes much more sense to focus on game because you’re trying to get something, not give something. Looked at from that point of view your ground game is a good match for your overall life strategy.

  12. What about that RSD “in field” video where there go into an empty park in California, and two 20 year old girls *just happen* to be sitting alone at picnic table in this otherwise empty park?

    I’ve a sand castle on Venice beach. Its for sale.

    azdoidz,

    Of course I understand what game is. It’s job is to entertain women and at the same time confirm to them that you possess abundance. If you don’t have abundance you’re simply tricking their instincts into thinking you do.”

    Abundance of attitude.

  13. “This specific post is one I mentally refer to EVERY SINGLE DAY as I move through the world harvesting from the meek.”

    Like Sea World harvests from Tilikum?

  14. @Tilikum – What galls those here freaking out is that they are the meek you have been harvesting from. I used to harvest from the meek and then became one of the meek you were harvesting from.

    Not any longer though…

    @Zdroidz – Denial isn’t a river in Egypt…

  15. @Zdroidz – Have you ever noticed how women enjoy male dominance, particularly in bed? Is that parasitic – cuz the more I focus on using a women for my pleasure and stop thinking about how she is perceiving it, the more she cums. If you think that’s “parasitic”, what on earth are you doing here? And why does everyone in my life keep coming back for more when I behave that way?

    These same people reject me when I’m being the “good man” you seem to be criticizing Tilikum for not being. You are shaming the entire basis for this site, do you get that?

  16. And now I’m going to breach my own “don’t feed the troll” protocol.

    @MYG – It’s not that you don’t “understand” what’s going on here at some intellectual level, it’s that you are alienated from your own identity so utterly that you haven’t internalized it.

    That’s okay. I’ve been through my own version of it, we all have. But just get that you are not doing the kind of work that will get you beyond your blindspot, instead you are a digging deeper ditch for you to die in.

    If you are a woman, oh well, it doesn’t matter to me. But on the off chance you are for real, why not take a chance and actually be vulnerable with us? How is all this really going for you? How well is your frame of reference working in your actual life? Stop lecturing and “ANALyzing” and trying to impress us with your wit and incisive reasoning – it’s not a contribution to any of us. Try being a human being and just one of the guys here – just another bozo on the bus like the rest of us, and you might actually get something out of this.

    Also, if you think SunWuKong is going to welcome you on the the TeamSpeak on Sunday night, you really should just get how delusional you are. He can disconnect anyone he wants to – it’s not a public space and you can’t barge your way in. That you miss this should perhaps be a signal to you that perhaps you are missing a lot of other stuff here? Okay, now you are on permanent ignore.

  17. @ Glenn
    Have you ever noticed how women enjoy male dominance, particularly in bed?
    Any man that focuses on technique instead of dominance isn’t doing it right. Dominance communicates to her that you’re worth having. Since her self worth is attached to yours this attitude charges her up.

    If you go back and re-read the thread you’ll see my points of disagreement are a lot more subtle that what some of the dummies that lack reading comprehension and went full cardiac might think.

  18. @ Glenn
    Without spending 10 pages I can boil this conflict down to 1 schism.

    This is what I find tiring.
    1) I’m a big fat loser with no current or future prospects and I’m regularly pursued by hot models that possess cones of beauty that stop traffic.

    Same guy 5 posts later
    2) Girls dramatically overvalue themselves.

  19. ^^^^
    So where is this guy getting feedback that girls overvalue themselves? It’s not from the squad of Playboy Bunnies that can’t get enough of him because of his A game.

  20. zdro1dz – “So where is this guy getting feedback that girls overvalue themselves?”

    ummm…observations of actual people in real life?

  21. I still feel the right people find each other,like attracts like.
    Yes we can improve ourselves and red pill teck is good understanding.
    However,where does the full spyche/soul understanding reach through it all to give us a real picture.
    Yes we can become panty sniffers,poonani chasers or like they like to say here in France, shasseur de jupe.
    If you really know your essence and full extention then life becomes different, still wine,women and song but deeper.
    Everyone has their traits,their predispositions/propensities , so let us not confuse teck in all forms with natural abilities,and know that psy teck,in all branches, is very powerfull in transforming,unleashing and enhancing the natural potential of a human.(or not ,as in mind control).
    There will still be huge difference of awareness between a shaman soul and a chav.
    Take it easy.
    Dan.

  22. @ Badpainter
    ummm…observations of actual people in real life?

    That’s one possibility. There are others you may want to consider.

  23. @ zdro1ds

    This is what I find tiring.
    1) I’m a big fat loser with no current or future prospects and I’m regularly pursued by hot models that possess cones of beauty that stop traffic.

    Same guy 5 posts later
    2) Girls dramatically overvalue themselves.

    From a certain perspective, both of these things can be true…with a few paradigm refinements. For the connection, begin by looking at Sun’s OK Cupid graphs on page one of this discussion. As we can see, women are not overvaluing themselves, or being overvalued by men…women are undervaluing men.

    This undervaluation comes from two sources:
    1) On a practical level, as I said above, women need men less for survival due to laws, social supports, careers, etc.
    2) On an emotional level, social programming teaches women that men and masculinity are a joke – e.g. see every sitcom.

    So, women don’t really think they are awesome…they are just taught to think men suck (institutional misandry perhaps). How do you get around that? Persuasion to increase the perception of your value…i.e. game.

    Furthermore, because all men have been devalued both tangibly and emotionally, the actual value differences among men are becoming less and less important (see how skewed the graph is becoming). Thus, the characteristic that differentiates men more and more, in this modern culture, is the ability to combat that social programming and market himself as high value…again game. Put simply, persuasion rules…more and more.

    In some capacity then, more and more women are taught to see all men as “big fat losers”. In this society, they actually need a man less and less for tangible reasons anyway. So, what makes man “different” to a modern woman then? The difference is whether one among the mostly equal losers sells himself, persuades, markets, influences…and games. The guy who can change her emotions, make her feel some drama and excitement, is the guy who is “different” and high value in her heart then. This is how a “big fat loser” can sometimes pull models…especially in this society, where most women think they are “better” than most men.

  24. @ Tilikum

    I don’t mean to be critical of your style. It’s just frustrating for me, I read them and sometimes it feels like I’m so close to breaking into some new mindset but I’m not quite there yet. I don’t think you’re being intentionally enigmatic, it’s just a bit beyond me yet.

  25. @ Dr. Jeremy

    I understand your point and on some level you are exactly right. If men can’t offer something tangible at least they can offer game (i.e. entertainment and the appearance of abundance).

    However if a product loses it’s utility that product is doomed. You’ll never trade your car in for a horse no matter how big and cute it’s eyes are.

    Since the earliest humans men have been valued for their output. That’s engrained in our DNA. It’s why men are larger than women. Without output we’re only useful for the occasional hookup.

  26. zdro1ds – “That’s one possibility. There are others you may want to consider.”

    I did, but wanted an explanation that would:

    1.apply to everyone
    2.allow both of your statements to be true but not create contradictions
    3.be testable by those of us not involved directly in the debate

    If what you’re actually trying to say is that those you’re arguing with are “full of shit” then I suggest you risk harming your credibility by pussyfooting around the issue with a debate that ultimately goes nowhere.

  27. @ Dr. Jeremy

    I should add that women haven’t been devalued by technology or society. This may be expressed in different ways but ultimately men are looking for companionship.

    So we’ve got a situation where if a man has good output he can find a good companion. The men in the top 20% are doing great because they still offer utility. The rest of the male population is struggling.

  28. @Dr. Jeremy

    “This undervaluation comes from two sources:
    1) On a practical level, as I said above, women need men less for survival due to laws, social supports, careers, etc.
    2) On an emotional level, social programming teaches women that men and masculinity are a joke – e.g. see every sitcom.”

    Women’s hypergamy is hard wired. They cannot escape their innate drive that their DNA mandates no matter what the current social cultural construct seems to be. They ardently desire a physically fit masculine self confident male regardless and they will break all the social rules or promises they make for themselves to fuck one given the opportunity. They cannot and will not undervalue a sexually high value male.

  29. @ zdro1dz

    However if a product loses it’s utility that product is doomed… Without output we’re only useful for the occasional hookup.

    Agreed…and the long-term product is indeed doomed right now in many ways. That is why fewer and fewer people are getting or staying married. As social engineering strips men of more and more utility, it will get worse too.

    That is also why the manosphere seems to collect three types of men:

    1) Men who want to have high utility in relationships, find a woman who still has a need for him, and have a long-term mutual exchange. This is usually the married game, religious HOH, and even some MRA groups.

    2) Men who want to have high utility for themselves and disconnect on some level from exchanging with women. This is the MGTOW group.

    3) Men who prioritize the perception of their value, usually for shorter-term hookups, with less consideration to tangible exchange. These are the gamers, PUAs, players, etc.

    The problem with the manosphere is that we all spend too much time on intrasexual competition – trying to posture to decide which strategy is “correct”. In fact, they are all just different adaptations to a larger social problem. If we could just agree that they do all “work”, in different ways, to try to cope with the larger social changes at hand…maybe we could actually get somewhere on the larger problems. Then, the product might not be “doomed” at all.

  30. @ Not Born This Morning
    They ardently desire a physically fit masculine self confident male regardless and they will break all the social rules or promises they make for themselves to fuck one given the opportunity.

    I might change “fuck” to “lock down”.

    Any middle aged, fat-skinny, HB4 woman can set up a free account on Ashley Madison and guzzle alpha semen by the gallon every night of the week. If a woman is interested in NSA sex she won’t encounter so much as a speed bump.

    For reference.
    http://imgur.com/9vael8r

      1. @Tilikum
        “Speculative Distortion”
        Yeah that apply’s to me
        Still have blue an me and more with red.

        @Glenn
        “That given half a chance, they and I would jump at the chance to be beta.”
        Don’t want that ever again.

        @Not born this morning
        “They cannot and will not undervalue a sexually high value male.”
        First threesome I messed up was because I didn’t maintain frame and I think was directly related to this.

        @SFC Ton
        Movnat
        My main workout with the redpill
        http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SKGF-ErsJiI

  31. @ Dr. Jeremy

    As social engineering strips men of more and more utility, it will get worse too.

    Yep. When my wife was a little girl (not sure which grade) the teacher asked all the kids what they wanted to be when they grew up. She said “I want to be a mom.” The teacher corrected her and made her come up with a different answer. That wasn’t an acceptable response.

    An honestly I think motherhood is the single factor that can save men’s utility. Women need a man that can support a family so they can stay at home and raise kids. Babies/families make us valuable.

  32. @ Not Born This Morning

    While women certainly do have evolved sexual preferences, their sexual behavior is also more easily influenced by social factors than men too. It is called Sexual Plasticity. Thus, while women do look for a +1 hypergamous fit, how they appraise male fitness is influenced by situational, social, cultural, and psychological factors.

    Given that, while I would agree that social devaluing may have less of an impact on higher sexual value males, they are still being devalued to a significant degree. After all, that is one of the points of the FI – to devalue high SMV men and put them within at least sexual hookup reach of low SMV women. Yes, the top 20% SMV males in that skewed tail on Sun’s graphs are glutting themselves on low SMV women now…but they are not where they should be on a natural curve in the true mating market. Not to mention the fact that the other 80% of men have been blurred into equally “not attractive” oblivion.

  33. @Rollo,

    I know this type of garbage is the new paradigm, but it still makes me gnash my teeth when I read/see examples of it. Hoes man, hoes.

    ” Her views on gender relations are of a modified-traditionalist strain. “In the workplace, it should be equal,” she says. “But in the house, the only way it works is if there’s a strong masculine and feminine component. You need to give your husband a blow job every day. He should feel like a king. Seeking it out in my sexual life is to make up for it in my real life. I want my husband to be dominant and more successful. I don’t want to be the man in the relationship.”

    I mostly blame older, fatter hoes for the success of a site like Ashley Madison, but buys need an RP transfusion to avoid being trampled under foot by mad cows stampeding to sites like this.

    Since women invaded the workplace in vast numbers, and hijacked the legal system, then put social convention in a blender, there seems to be no bottom they will not scrape against.

    …hoes *sniffle*

    This is why my position is thus:

    Men must be selfish. Do for self FIRST.

    Men must be dominant sexually at all times. ( again, do for self first ) That sweet little flower needs to be ravished.

    Men need to start trying to swing society away from the devastating influence of the FI. This is a long term objective, like eliminating ISIS ( although getting rid of ISIS is much easier than loosening the FI grip on western society. Maybe we need to convince ISIS to target feminism instead..) This will take generations.

    And, most importantly, men need desperately to understand the nature of women and their concepts of love, character, self image and hypergamy.

    Projection is a strong thing. Men are supposedly ” pigs ” and ” sexual predatory monsters “. But every day we are infested with miles long carousel lines and hyped up hamsters running roughshod across the land.

  34. yareally origin revealed in stream of consciousness post:

    “How “yes” IS that “yes” REALLY?”

    brilliant

  35. Rollo: “Well,…yeah.
    http://www.gq.com/news-politics/mens-lives/201310/ashley-madison-affair-cheating-site?currentPage=3

    Wow. That was quite a read.

    “I really can’t show you my apartment,” I tell Laura as I hail her a taxi. Tomorrow she’ll e-mail me that she wrote an essay about our encounter on the ride home; a week later, that she’s left her husband and that “I bet the next time that I do have mind-blowing sex it will not be with someone who is married.” Then, a few weeks after, that she’s quit her job. She wants to be a writer, and asks me for advice.”

    I wonder if this journalist has a different cell phone number so he can discard it easily without too much inconvenience, after dealing with these types of psychos?

  36. When you get solid eye-contact with a girl, often the surface level conversation dies off to just half-sentences that trail off and you both feel crazy intense chemistry. You can purposely spark this (YouTube Liam McRae Rapid Escalation and check my archive for the related Gambler and Robbie Williams videos on laser eye-contact). But what’s happening here is that you both switch to subcommunications…My way of describing it is it’s like you two are sitting at a table talking to eachother but having a secret text message conversation on your phones below the table that other people can’t read. So you’re kind of semi-maintaining that surface-level conversation but it sounds stupid to people listening and you’re not really paying attention to what eachother is actually saying, because you’re engaged in that text convo that’s all feels-based through your eye-contact. When you understand this you can seduce girls who don’t even speak your language, because the subcommunication level is universal.

    This comment from YaReally resonates with me. Not only is the bit about subcommunications in eye contact spot on, the way YaReally worded this just gave me a new insight about surface communication not being as important as the subcommunications already taking place, just needs to be at least minimally congruent.

    Already thinking how I take that with me next time I go dancing. Recall I’m the introvert dancer who dislikes small talk and generally finds conversations in loud environments to be too much work. I started doing direct, laser eye contact awhile back. Don’t think it, just do it and get into it with intensity. At first it was difficult to overcome my conditioning, but now I’m good at it and I find it easier than holding a conversation. It’s part of the emotional excitement for them, they get engaged through their eyes, now they’re invested, I can almost do whatever I want short of feeling their tits or going below the belt. I still don’t do it that much, prefer to leave them wanting more than I give. As I said before, the degree to which I do this now would surprise the heck out of the old blue pill me. Not every partner gets into it with me, but some very definitely do, what’s more is there is a subset of those who do who will remember me and seek me out for a dance next time I go there. Just have to figure out to convert some of those to outside action. Back to the verbal skills… but maybe a better lead-in from the eye contact …

    YaReally, I appreciate the eye contact resources and will peruse them when I can.

  37. “@All – Guys, stop feeding the troll. It will not go away if you respond to it or mention it. You guys seem very sophisticated socially so I’m kind of stunned why you can’t get this – ignore the troll. We want it gone and that’s what will do it.”

    lol just wanted to mention that I don’t post rebuttals for the sake of convincing the troll themselves. They’re a lost cause, they have no interest or reason to change their views and I don’t really care about them. When I post stuff like that it’s for the guys who are lurking and who will see this archived a month or a year or 5 years from now when they’re looking for answers. They’ll read that bullshit and then get to my post and go “oh, fuck, okay this guy actually makes sense and answers questions these guys can’t and provided videos showing shit that contradicts what these other guys who sounded really sure of themselves are saying…MAYBE I’ll keep reading and see what else clicks with me” so they look into the red pill further instead of having their incorrect world view confirmed by guys who don’t go out and cold approach strangers and theorize from their armchair.

    The absolute saddest cases I’ve met are the guys who did EVERYTHING right, they’re in med school, they’re at the gym 5 days a week, they’ve got sick condos, expensive clothes etc. and they still can’t get LAID let alone get a long-term girlfriend.

    One guy confessed to me that he wasn’t even in med school because he wanted to be a doctor, he was in it (racking up tons of debt and not enjoying school or his future career) because he thought if he was a doctor he would be able to find a wife…turns out he was too busy studying and working to actually meet women and when he DID occasionally meet them thru social circles he had no idea what to do to get them and the “cooler” guys in the group would get the girls’ interest. And I told him man you gotta’ go out and sarge more and he had the fucking scary realization that he was too swamped with med school to go out sarging and gain that experience talking to girls, and too in debt to quit med school.

    These views of “just get rich and jacked and you’ll magically have a wife appear out of nowhere and love you and marry you” and “if you’re rich and jacked then you’ll have no problem getting an HB8-10 wife, it’s easy you won’t have any problems keeping them because you have money and a 6-pack bro” Disney fantasy bullshit fucks guys lives up. You know why a lot of rich dudes in the nightlife scene do drugs? Because they’re sexually frustrated…they have the money looks career and car that everyone told them would provide women and they still aren’t getting the girls they want but they have ALL the attributes that were SUPPOSED to make it just magically happen for them and they keep talking to girls who get bored of them or won’t put out or get pissed off or cheat on them and they go “But I did everything right!! Is it just ME? Am I just a loser??” and they do drugs to numb themselves from that thought process…when they simply didn’t spend time learning game because some dipshit on the net told them “bro just make money and get rich and you’ll get a 10” and they skipped reading useful real-world applicable shit and wasted another weekend of their 20s in the office.

    You think quality hot girls are just walking around all over the place? They’re rare as fuck. Some guy waking up in his fancy condo (isolated), driving to work (isolated), working in his private corner office all day (isolated), heading to the gym with his headphones on focusing on his workout cause macking girls at the gym feels sleazy to him (isolated), heads home to read shit on the net or study or do extra work (isolated)…he turns down invites to go to the bar because if he gets some extra work down he might get that promotion (isolated) till his friends stop asking.

    Where is that guy meeting his dream 10 wife-quality material? On his lunch-break MAYBE he happens to bump into a hot girl? What are the odds that that hot girl is going to be high-quality and be a personality type he gels with and have good motherly/wifey qualities and not be on anti-depressants or bipolar or dating anyone else or have a healthy attitude or a kid or a million other things.

    If you want a high-quality long term girlfriend you need to get the fuck out there and meet a shitload of girls. Everything else you’re doing is not getting you closer to meeting a high quality hot girl.

    But like I say, I just post this for the lurkers, not to convince the trolls. Go out and approach, lurkers, ’cause there ain’t no girls in your computer room lol

    1. Just an aside on what YaReally was saying; when I was in my 20’s my brother used to do competitive bodybuilding on the amateur circuit level.

      I never competed (I got laid being a junior rock star), but I did go to his shows, we worked out together and I was friends with a lot of the guys in his social circle.

      These guys got HB9+ level interest from top shelf women constantly. Strippers, gym rat girls, models, etc. and laid they got.

      However, these guys had very little Game and zero Red Pill awareness. They were Alpha by default, but all of them (my brother included for a time) ended up getting involved with women who’s possessiveness bordered on psychotic.

      They “got the dream girl” but she’d turn into a nightmare and their Beta feminine pretenses of “treating a woman right” destroyed them from the inside out. Each of these women wanted to lock down these guys hardcore, but even when they did their BPD tendencies made them even more crazy.

      Consequently these “supermen” would give up on being pro bodybuilders and do something mundane and domestic, only to get fat or give up in trying to make everything right for the “smoking hot dream girl”.

  38. “When I post stuff like that it’s for the guys who are lurking and who will see this archived a month or a year or 5 years from now when they’re looking for answers.”

    Exactly.

  39. @ YaReally

    I’m sure you’re a good guy and you mean well. Some of your ideas like focusing on game have merit.

    But you’re worldview is fundamentally wrong.

    Poor neighborhood = no hot women
    Middle class neighborhood = a sprinkling of hot women
    Upper class = many hot women

    That’s not an accident.

    Is hs/college different? yes
    Is hookup culture different? yes
    Is game important? yes
    But over the long run fundamentals rule any marketplace.

  40. @zdr01dz

    Poor neighborhood = no hot women

    Gonna call unequivocal bullshit here. Two of the hottest chicks I’ve ever dated came from the hood. One black, one hispanic. Meanwhile the middle-upper middle class neighborhoods I’ve lived in most of my life have been teeming with fat to average women.

    Don’t get me wrong, there’s a lot more bottom basement straight up ugly fat chicks in the hood, but hot chicks occur at about the same rates as other places. That is to say not very often, but they’re there.

  41. Speaking of Deida….

    Back in 2010, my now ex girlfriend gave me a copy of the The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida. Mind you, this was in my solid blue-pill days, where I believed in all of those tropes – She’s The One, Make Her Your Princess, etc. – so I went along with flow, thinking that if I read and internalized the book’s teachings, I’d be solidly set up in a relationship with a complete babe who would be completely into me.

    Looking back, her giving me the book (and me accepting it) was the biggest flat out shit test I ever failed, and I mean fall-flat-on-your-face, walk-right-into-the trap kind of fail. And in the grander scheme of things, I cant really blame her; the fact that I didn’t chuck the book right into the garbage pail right in front of her face just confirmed my card carrying blue pill status.

    Wuss or not, even then I could detect the smell of touch-feely bullshit rotting under the patchouli and harmonic crystal packaging. Something didn’t seem right, and if your read Deida you’ll understand why. Rollo uses the term “purple pill” to describe red pill truths that have been neutered and rendered safe for women, and Deida is purple all the way through. All of that “loving upward” and other terms is simply a repackaging of the Feminine Imperative in New Age clothes.

    Avoid that nonsense.

    1. MYG wants to tar Roissy / PUA with Deida but she’s barking up the wrong tree.

      She should be comparing Athol Kay, Mark Manson and Evan Mark Katz to Deida – who in honesty stole from and repurposed Jung for the feminine imperative.

  42. ^^^
    Didn’t come out right.

    Attractive girls in the lower class grow up and marry out.

    In fact I just drove through the hood a couple of hours ago. As always not one good looking woman in sight.

  43. @Glenn
    “I’ve always had a reservation about game due to the underlying social dynamics that it implies. Part of me wanted to see a Julien as an asshole who’s level I wouldn’t sink to, lol. Why the LOL? Because at times in my life I’ve done similar things and they worked. ”

    Like Fight Club says: You have to give up. You have to accept that your view of the world was socially conditioned into you by people who had good intentions but were socially conditioned themselves. They put chains and locks on you and learning pickup is the process of removing those chains and freeing the guy you’ve been repressing. When you’re a baby and you want something you take it, until society teaches you to ask permission, and that lasts until society tells you not to bother asking for permission because you don’t DESERVE whatever it was you wanted…unless you buy this new shirt, or these expensive shoes, or this new BMW, or get that job as a doctor. THEN you deserve that thing you wanted, you know, until the NEXT product comes out and then you don’t deserve it until you have this NEW BETTER product. You’re removing all that bullshit society fed you and going back to your base instincts.

    The reason I got good was that I knew I was socially retarded so I said “well I have no idea what to do, and these guys seem to know what they’re doing, so I’ll just do what they advise and see what happens”. I just accepted reality as it is instead of trying to fight it and cling to what I wished it was. I had never interacted with a girl so when I was told “girls think such and such” I said ok well I guess they must think such and such because I sure don’t know what they think and these tens of thousands of dudes are going out every day comparing notes and it looks like there’s patterns so hey I guess that’s how girls think. It would be cool if it were the Disney way, but I guess it’s not that way so oh well.

    Like I say there are a lot of hardcore red pill guys who are still desperately clinging by a single fingertip to the notion of “sure this all works and I’m out slaying poon and that’s fun but one day I’ll find that unicorn and it’ll be like Disney promised me, I won’t need to run any game on her I can just become a good little husband chode with her and pop out some kids and live happily ever after”.

    Let go. Give up. Accept reality. THAT’S when you can really own your shit.

    “@zdro1dz – “So where is this guy getting feedback that girls overvalue themselves?””

    Field experience. Again for the lurkers this is why you can’t learn this stuff from your armchair. You have to go out and see it first-hand. All the evidence is out there in-field every day.

    “Any middle aged, fat-skinny, HB4 woman can set up a free account on Ashley Madison and guzzle alpha semen by the gallon every night of the week. If a woman is interested in NSA sex she won’t encounter so much as a speed bump.”

    ahh, the old “that would only work dumb ugly sluts.” angle. We haven’t seen that ’round here before lol

    @Random Angeleno
    Glad it helped click some puzzle pieces together for you. Click my name and search my archives for “laser” and watch all the vids I’ve posted about this (Liam, Gambler, James Franco, etc.). It’s a huge puzzle piece and even more valuable when you age and can’t do the swirly twirly spin-hug shit that the guys in their early 20s do lol

    “It’s part of the emotional excitement for them, they get engaged through their eyes, now they’re invested, I can almost do whatever I want short of feeling their tits or going below the belt.”

    Ya, it’s gina tingles for them. The biggest key is cutting the space and getting up close once you’ve locked eyes and hit that subcomm situ.

    @zdroidz
    Those upper class women are cheating on the upper class guys they lock down for provision. I know this because they cheat with guys like me. I know they cheat with guys like me because I go out and fuck them.

    Are you encouraging guys to be that cuckolded provider sitting at home wondering why his fiance keeps working late? Doesn’t sound like you have men’s best interest at heart…sounds like you’re more concerned about making sure women get provided for.

    @Rollo
    Cutting and pasting your post ’cause it’s important and shouldn’t get lost at the bottom of the last page lol:

    “Just an aside on what YaReally was saying; when I was in my 20’s my brother used to do competitive bodybuilding on the amateur circuit level.

    I never competed (I got laid being a junior rock star), but I did go to his shows, we worked out together and I was friends with a lot of the guys in his social circle.

    These guys got HB9+ level interest from top shelf women constantly. Strippers, gym rat girls, models, etc. and laid they got.

    However, these guys had very little Game and zero Red Pill awareness. They were Alpha by default, but all of them (my brother included for a time) ended up getting involved with women who’s possessiveness bordered on psychotic.

    They “got the dream girl” but she’d turn into a nightmare and their Beta feminine pretenses of “treating a woman right” destroyed them from the inside out. Each of these women wanted to lock down these guys hardcore, but even when they did their BPD tendencies made them even more crazy.

    Consequently these “supermen” would give up on being pro bodybuilders and do something mundane and domestic, only to get fat or give up in trying to make everything right for the “smoking hot dream girl”.”

    Thanks for sharing…this is the stuff I’m talking about when I say these guys fuck other dudes up with their mental masturbation. Finding and reading red pill shit could help those guys but instead they don’t check it out and just log another few hours in the office or gym hoping it’ll just get them the perfect wife because of the world view guys like zdroidz promote.

    And that doesn’t even account for the depression behind the scenes for those guys, where when they get stuck with a shitty low-quality girl, or can’t get the one girl they REALLY want, or don’t know how to handle or escape a shitty relationship, or can’t keep a girl that they really like, they can spiral down hard because they thoguht they were doing it all right and nobody has answers for them that make sense so the problem must be THEM.

    “However, these guys had very little Game and zero Red Pill awareness. They were Alpha by default, but all of them (my brother included for a time) ended up getting involved with women who’s possessiveness bordered on psychotic.

    They “got the dream girl” but she’d turn into a nightmare and their Beta feminine pretenses of “treating a woman right” destroyed them from the inside out. ”

    Yup. Literally all a guy like zdroidz has to do is google the Misc bodybuilding forum and check out the Forever Alone threads to see that his armchair theories don’t hold up. But he won’t, because he doesn’t actually want to be convinced. And I’m cool with that, as long as his ignorance doesn’t fuck up other guys lurking and looking for answers.

    Know how I know you’re not making up stories about your bro and his bodybuilding buddies? Because I fucking go out and have befriended lots of those dudes before and have macked on girls with them and seen them in action. Exact same shit with rich dudes.

    A guy who’s super jacked and rich doesn’t have TIME to go out and learn how to get and keep the women he meets because he spent all his time in the gym and the office instead of learning pickup.

  44. The pedestalization aspect of finding ” hot women ” in ” upper class ” neighborhoods is troubling and patently false.

    Chicks are chicks all over. If they reside in the U.S., and are not heavy cruisers ( fat ), because they can afford spa treatments, plastic surgery and expensive makeup and hair do’s ( *cough* extentions ) doesn’t truly make her ” hot “. In fact, I’d argue the more fakeness a woman displays, the bigger the CAUTION sign should be.

  45. @MikePhil
    “Rollo uses the term “purple pill” to describe red pill truths that have been neutered and rendered safe for women, and Deida is purple all the way through.”

    That was the impression I got from the little bit that I read lol Couldn’t stomach it.

    @zdroidz
    “Attractive girls in the lower class grow up and marry out.”

    I had one fuckbuddy (HB8, also she had an office job and I was unemployed lol) who came over weekly to fuck who was engaged to a well-off dude the entire time. She called it off because the wedding was approaching and she felt guilty (finally). We did fucked up kinky sex that she’ll never do with her now-hubby (almost 3somed her and her BFF (her BFF had a 6yr boyfriend and a rich sugar daddy who would fly her to visit him behind her boyfriend’s back)). I almost fucked her in her wedding dress lol Both girls were hot and I’ve seen that engaged one’s Facebook etc. and to anyone who sees or meets her they would hold her up as high quality wife material. Her hubby will never know what we did. She tried to get me to not use condoms too. That girl is now living in some fancy upscale house in some affluent neighborhood and you’re driving past her going “see, those internet guys don’t know anything, look at that girl there”.

    Do you want men to aspire to be that girl’s fiance? Is that winning to you? Is your goal for men “have a wife, doesn’t matter what your relationship is like just get a ring on that finger and you’re a winner, boys!”? Because you have a LOT more reading to do.

    Like I say: you don’t understand that the value of the toaster to the girl isn’t that it makes toast. So when the toaster doesn’t toast it hasn’t lost its value to her and it isn’t “no longer of use”, because the value in it is NOT the making toast part.

    Now I got shit to do lol have fun gentlemen

  46. @ YaReally

    Those upper class women are cheating on the upper class guys they lock down for provision. I know this because they cheat with guys like me. I know they cheat with guys like me because I go out and fuck them.

    I take it, “them” is plural for multiple guy’s wives. Assuming that’s even true it’s not a roadmap for personal success. I encourage you to purchase an affordable set of body armor and carry a safe bag in case you need to leave town fast.

    Doesn’t sound like you have men’s best interest at heart…sounds like you’re more concerned about making sure women get provided for.

    Your bragging about cheating with several men’s wives and you think you’ve got men’s best interests at heart?

    That’s the disconnect that occasionally pops up in the man-o-sphere. Dark triad gets recast as personal empowerment and “fuck you” to anybody that gets in my way.

    I’m old enough to have seen the complete life cycle for dark triad guys (birth to catastrophic implosion) and I’m only in my mid 40s.

  47. I’ve lived in very affluent neighborhoods (I’m in one now) and also in very poor neighborhoods.

    I can tell you from first hand observation that women in affluent neighborhoods are on average far better looking. Yes, there are anomalies, but modeling agencies don’t exactly tour the hood…and if pickings were abundant, they would. As it is, pickins are really slim for good looking indigent girls in the US. You can see it in the high schools…but 18 those girls in the “hood” are really looking long in the tooth, many are moms.

    Hood women are skankier, and fatter (or extremely skinny and addicted meth, with no teeth…I’ve see a lot of those too).

  48. @Dr. J-

    “Given that, while I would agree that social devaluing may have less of an impact on higher sexual value males, they are still being devalued to a significant degree. After all, that is one of the points of the FI – to devalue high SMV men and put them within at least sexual hookup reach of low SMV women. Yes, the top 20% SMV males in that skewed tail on Sun’s graphs are glutting themselves on low SMV women now…but they are not where they should be on a natural curve in the true mating market. Not to mention the fact that the other 80% of men have been blurred into equally “not attractive” oblivion.”

    The problem and the solution is within our control.

    I understand your point. But I cannot discount the power of natural attraction. Left alone it is incorruptible. Corrupted, it still remains the most basic driving force.

    I think many potentially relatively high SMV men denigrate and devalue themselves in their own minds rather than women denigrating and devaluing them. Initially high SMV perceptions of a mans physical qualities and personality are validated or discounted by the woman based on HIS actions after introduction. A mans independence, autonomy and realization of self worth is an integral part of his attractiveness manifested after the initial introduction and “seals the deal” or not.

    Today many men do not realize their value and many women inflate their own value. Too many men accomadate women’s self inflated SMV distortions because men are afraid to resist due to mans deflated perception of himself. Many women actually decrease their value while pretending to themselves it is increasing. Many men actually increase their value while they struggle with negative self perceptions that stifle their increase.

    My wife’s mother overtly cautioned her against the perils of getting fat just after marrying me. Her mother clearly understood, respected and accepted the consequences and the real reasons why we were attracted to one another. This was a little over 20 years ago. Her mother was “old school” more traditional and respected the patriarchy. Most mothers today and pop culture crap lies are conditioning young girls to believe they are entitled to male attention regardless of how repulsive their bodies are. “It’s what’s inside that counts”, blaa, blaa, blaa. If men weren’t psychologically denegrating themselves in such large numbers, they would not tolerate this shit and women wouldn’t be getting away with it and a lot of other stupid shit. Self denigration affects game (literally the human mating process) negatively and this is what leads to less success especially with men. Female SMV is less affected by self denigration, especially today where there is a white knight on every street corner anxious to save any poor ho.

    Self denigration involves an inaccurate distorted self perception to begin with and we all tend to automatically act in ways (driven subconsciously) to create conditions that will reinforce what we think of ourselves.

    What happens to us is mostly within our control but we tend to blame outside systems, institutions, statistics, etc. Once a man realizes this, it is much easier for him to discard negative self perceptions, improve himself and game effectively.

  49. @zdr01dz

    Attractive girls in the lower class grow up and marry out.

    Neither one did. The one I dated in high school ballooned 50 lbs overweight a couple years after I left and eventually cranked out 3 kids by 3 different daddies. Became a walking stereotype even though she could have gotten out when I came back after my first year at college and asked her to stick with me for life. Her loss.

    The other is BPD as fuck and will never get out of the hood. Her chance to swing out came along and she couldn’t curb her problems. Still hot, but way too much crazy.

    In fact I just drove through the hood a couple of hours ago. As always not one good looking woman in sight.

    I just drove through my upper middle class white neighborhood at lunch and not a single hot woman was in sight either. It’s pretty much always the case. I suppose there’s no hot chicks living in upper middle class neighborhoods by that logic.

  50. @ Liz
    I store equipment in an industrial area and I have to drive through the hood to get to it. I can state in no uncertain terms that there are no pretty women in the hood.

    Even among younger girls there aren’t many. And by the time they hit their 20s they are out.

  51. ” . . . if your read Deida . . .”

    Read him? Just look at him. He’s got that Gamma Face that stirs something inside making you want to just slap it off of him while yelling, “You’re a man goddam it, an apex predator, not some fucking rabbit.”

    What is he going to teach me, how to mow the lawn . . . with my teeth?

  52. @Rollo

    “They “got the dream girl” but she’d turn into a nightmare and their Beta feminine pretenses of “treating a woman right” destroyed them from the inside out.”

    Yup. You can go to bed with a centerfold and wake up with a vampire bat attached to your dick. Every rose has its thorn. Success has consequences. Learn to pick the roses without getting stabbed.

  53. @Liz,

    I straddle both worlds quite frequently. Daily, in fact. for decades.

    I’m in one of the most affluent areas of my state at this very moment.

    Maybe because I’ve trained myself to see through makeup and expensive clothes, I do not see an abundance of ” hot ” women versus the poorer areas. What I do see, for the past 30 or so years, is a Disneyland-like portrayal of the facts on the ground. People seem to want to believe.

    In my experience, in the ” hood “, ugly chicks can be horrifyingly ugly. They stand out and suck in even light, like a black hole in space. They attract the most attention. Regular girls are just that, regular. Almost invisible compared to the drug addicted circus clown. But the affluent areas are filled with very average looking women. I see hundreds ( okay, maybe dozens ) of them daily. It may boil down to personal preference more than anything else. I couldn’t count how many turkey-necked, over made up, short skirted high heeled chicks abound. Trying too hard.

    I’d just like my fellow men to develop the ability to see this, and maybe avoid the ” what happened to her? she used to be hot when we started dating..” syndrome. When she stops troweling on foundation and false eyelashes, the truth will be revealed.

  54. @ Not Born This Morning

    Self denigration involves an inaccurate distorted self perception to begin with and we all tend to automatically act in ways (driven subconsciously) to create conditions that will reinforce what we think of ourselves.

    What happens to us is mostly within our control but we tend to blame outside systems, institutions, statistics, etc. Once a man realizes this, it is much easier for him to discard negative self perceptions, improve himself and game effectively.

    I generally agree with this assessment. While I think it is ultimately each man’s responsibility to discard negative self-perceptions, however, I do think outside systems are initially to blame. Men internalize what they are taught about themselves by current culture, media, and education. That is how they get those negative perceptions and distortions in the first place. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think guys should play the victim over it and not do anything to help themselves (primarily because no one is coming to save them besides themselves anyway). Nevertheless, having a clear understanding of the external circumstances that do create those initial distortions is important to ultimately help restore accurate self-perception. In my opinion, that is part of a larger red pill social awareness.

  55. @Sun,

    ” In fact I just drove through the hood a couple of hours ago. As always not one good looking woman in sight.

    I just drove through my upper middle class white neighborhood at lunch and not a single hot woman was in sight either. It’s pretty much always the case. I suppose there’s no hot chicks living in upper middle class neighborhoods by that logic.”

    The city I live in has various ” hoods “. I guarantee if you drive through the Brazilian section, you won’t drive far before seeing a hot chick or two.

    1. @Random Angeleno
      “YaReally worded this just gave me a new insight about surface communication not being as important as the subcommunications already taking place, just needs to be at least minimally congruent.”

      @Yareally
      “you need to get the fuck out there and meet a shitload of girls.”

      So damn true

      “by people who had good intentions but were socially conditioned themselves.”

      Family in a nutshell

      “Let go. Give up. Accept reality. THAT’S when you can really own your shit.”

      Being male

      @zdr01dz
      “Your bragging about cheating with several men’s wives and you think you’ve got men’s best interests at heart?”
      Good point

      @Not born this morning
      “Today many men do not realize their value”
      “Many men actually increase their value while they struggle with negative self perceptions that stifle their increase.”

      “What happens to us is mostly within our control but we tend to blame outside systems, institutions, statistics, etc. Once a man realizes this, it is much easier for him to discard negative self perceptions, improve himself and game effectively.”

      Everything is within me

      “The problem and the solution is within our control.”

      To oppose is to support

      “Learn to pick the roses without getting stabbed.”

      First major broken heart

  56. I really enjoy YaReally’s posts. They read like solid id. Don’t know how else to describe it. Just a spew of consciousness.

  57. @zdroidz
    “Your bragging about cheating with several men’s wives and you think you’ve got men’s best interests at heart?”

    In an ideal world those men wouldn’t be participating in what’s basically legalized slavery in the first place, but guys like you keep luring them into it by promoting “just be rich and handsome and you won’t have to worry, you’ll get your 10 wife and live happily ever after, I’m married so everyone else should be who cares about statistics and divorce rate and family court biases! C’mon guys, work hard so you can throw that noose around your neck, that’s winning!”

    I notice you’ve also taken accountability from the woman out. I don’t do anything with women that they don’t CHOOSE to do.

    The question that those guys should be asking, and that you can’t answer, is WHY do their women cheat with a piece of shit like me when they have a rich good-looking husband at home? They have a perfectly shiny brand new toaster at home, so why are they plugging in the shitty old toaster with the frayed wire that gives them shocks and burns the toast?

    Any answer for that? Let me guess, those women are all just sluts or I’m just making up stories and married/taken women don’t actually cheat lol How deep can you bury your head in the sand to hold onto your idea of how you think the world should work?

  58. “WHY do their women cheat with a piece of shit like me when they have a rich good-looking husband at home? ”

    Because castles and cocaine are entirely different orders of product whose quality is measured to entirely different standards.

    And yes, in the real world people really will risk a paid for castle that could serve their family for generations for a hit of really good quality cocaine today.

  59. I recently read this HBR article about decision-making that maps out ways to understand how/why errors in decision-making occur. It examines the automatic/instinctive/emotional response compared with the slow/logical/deliberative thought process, and discusses how the two need to operate in a balanced way in order to better solve problems. It’s a mix of business, economics and maybe psychology that maps out an interesting approach that could probably be applied to everyday decision-making (maybe not????): (1) understand how decisions are made, (2) define the problem, (3) diagnose the underlying causes, (4) design the solution, (5) test the solution. https://hbr.org/2015/05/leaders-as-decision-architects

  60. @ YaReally
    Like a thousand other guys you’re all talk. Save your spittle for someone who falls for those sorts of stories. Or alternately learn to tell the same stories in a more convincing manner.

    Peace.

  61. “The city I live in has various ” hoods “. I guarantee if you drive through the Brazilian section, you won’t drive far before seeing a hot chick or two.”

    I agree Brazilian women are pretty. I’m not sure how many Brazilian “hoods” exist in the US (or Eastern European “hoods” which would also have beautiful women). Most of our “hoods” just aren’t all that (but, I’ll agree middle class and even upper middle don’t look so great either).

  62. I guess, from my perspective, I don’t really understand that there’s such a vast difference between the essence of what YaReally (and others) are espousing, and what zdr01dz is saying.

    Attractiveness, assertive body language, social intelligence are all ‘success markers’. Social intelligence is among the most important indicators, and there have been body language studies where people practiced assertive, ‘strong’ postures for just a few minutes before job interviews and it increased their chances for success enormously…about tenfold. Women are attracted to potential as much as reality (IMO), so it stands to reason that the sort of things that would make a person successful in life would be the same sort of things that women find attractive.

    And of course practice increases a person’s chances for success, so of course practicing talking to women/game and so forth will make the person more likely to be successful.

    I’m reminded of the following allegory:

    A guy walking in the park comes across a sketch artist plying his trade and, liking what he sees, decides to have a sketch portrait of himself made. 15 minutes later, the artist hands him the completed work. “Wow! This is really, really good!”, the guy exclaims, impressed. “How much do I owe you?” “That’ll be $100, please,” the artist replies. “WHAT??? But that only took you 15 minutes’ worth of work!!!,” protests the guy. To which the artist calmly replies: “I’m sorry, sir, but that’s not correct. That took me 20 years and 15 minutes worth of work.”

  63. I have a small problem with the three strikes rule when it comes to texting/arranging a date. I would consider myself lesser alpha (although after reading Alpha game I am likely more a Sigma male cause I play by my own rules and have never really given a shit about being accepted by other men..kind of a loner) I have slept with somewhere near 40 women by age 33..but didn’t get laid till 18.

    Was never a natural and missed out on countless opportunities in college looking back due to blue pill conditioning. Most of my mating is short term..as in one night stands on first date after initial meeting or same night lay (meet to lay is generally 2-5 hours of seduction) and then acting somewhat aloof after. Invariably girls I’ve banged will decide to contact me again ~26-30 days after our first sexual encounter..I always make it a priority to dominate them in bed and give them orgasms manually before penetration. I’ve taken this to mean these women are not on the pill and they think of me/find me particularly desirable close to and around ovulation. However, I just don’t project a vibe that I am interested in any sort of long term commitment. For more Alpha cred..not proud of this, but I have had three separate women basically demand I fuck them at there house at after bar drinking parties with there husband asleep in the next room the first night I met them.

    Now after this background..here is my beef with the 3 strikes rule…if you are in the eyes of women sexy/alpha/low commitment type and she is not on the pill and in the post ovulation phase you may have a flirtacious interaction get her number, but her interest may be very luke warm because of the her interest shifts throughout the month. I have often been ignored/flaked, then I send a feeler a few weeks later and its on as long as I get them out quickly..then its the same cycle..luke warm again until 1 month later. I know I could get more steady sex from girls if I put in more effort after banging them the first time, but I really just don’t care and enjoy new conquests more than regular sex with the same person. Anyway..if you project an alpha vibe and get ignored on the first go round throw a feller out there every few weeks at least 2-3 times after the initial rejection..if you had the right initial vibe and you catch her around the ovulation phase you might just be surprised at what you can reel back in.

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