Strength of Interest

10407975_880067355398915_2343533858160698952_n

I had a couple of questions from the SoSuave Forum‘s (yes, I’m still a mod there) Judge Nismo I thought I’d take a crack at:

G’ morning Rollo. I got a couple questions for you that I don’t think you touched on in your book…or I may have overlooked.

1. What is your opinion on the Celebrity Maxim?

That is, I know you see it a lot in your Rational Male comments and on this board (i.e. Would she flake out on Brad Pitt? Would she make George Clooney wait for sex? She wouldn’t confuse Channing Tatum, etc.) I’ve even used it a lot on here, usually saying you wouldn’t fall asleep if you had a date with Katy Perry, and you wouldn’t pull a last minute flake text with Kate Upton, and you wouldn’t have to babysit if you had Shakira ready to bang!

If there’s three things I’ve learned from writing in the Manosphere for the past 12 years it’s this; no matter how apt, never use an allegory to illustrate a point, never try to relate a fictional story, movie or character to a real world dynamic and never hold up famous celebrities as common reference examples of broader, mundane dynamics.

The temptation to do so stems from a want for a common point of reference. However, appealing to a highly recognizable exemplar of a dynamic only makes picking apart the known particulars about that individual a priority – not on really grasping the dynamic itself.

I see this in the ‘sphere occasionally, and I’d be lying if I said I’d never committed these sins myself. For the most part, and certainly as far as my own readership goes, I think many of the best writers and the commentariat of the ‘sphere are very intelligent men. That’s not to account for the occasional troll, but I’ve found that even an OCD troll still needs to be clever in the ‘sphere.

That said, it’s just this preponderance of intelligence that makes men take illustrative examples as face value facts. Using celebrities as examples of commonality in purpose just smacks of the Apex Fallacy.

“….the Apex fallacy is the idea that we assign the characteristics of the highest visibility members of a group to all members of that group.”

If you’re at all familiar with the controversy surrounding the Apex Fallacy, feminists and manginas alike decided to commandeer wikipedia to paste this as a Men’s Rights misappropriation of the definition, but in actuality the true definition cuts both ways. So while women misappropriate the highest visibility men to associate a totality of the “patriarchy”, men, on the other hand, misappropriate the highest echelon men with examples of common inference of a dynamic.

In English, those celebs aren’t you or me or any layperson you deal with daily. I get the inference of course, and the message is usually one about incentives being strong enough to prompt behaviors. However, what Nismo is getting at is really less about the validity of those illustrations and more about genuine desire:

I ask since it’s quite a big trope in the manosphere…

2. What is your take on the one strike rule?

You do have a 3 strikes article on Rational Male, and I did read it. On this board, it’s quite common to see situations with chicks go like this:

– She flaked on me, she is deleted.
– She stopped responding to my texts and calls, automatic out.
– She wants to bring some friends along, sorry this is one on one.

I could go on and on, most of these situations often get read by red pill men as low interest, thus move on or become a beta orbiter. Yes, I do online dating and work 2 jobs, but I do have a one strike policy.

Sure, sometimes life will truly get in the way, but most men who are red pill will likely move on if there’s low interest. We all know not to waste time with uninterested chicks because they won’t put out. Heck, the sick excuse is often times a blow off, and lately, death in the family has been disguised as blowing someone off.

Zero Tolerance

The problem most men have with a Zero Tolerance policy is that you’re not George Clooney and you’re not Brad Pitt, but moreover, most men still cling to Blue Pill idealisms and the conditioned hope that women will see the “real” men they think women have a magical sensitivity to detect. Thus, they play by the script and hold out for the real desire they believe women should have a capacity for with them.

This is why Blue Pill men get angry at the 3-Strikes rule; that scarcity mentality colors their interaction with women to the point that anything counter to playing the patient, devoted, “prove-my-quality” white knightery role invalidates everything they’ve sacrificed and waited so patiently for up to that point.

They’re afraid of throwing the baby out with the bath water, and damn it, if you suggest doing anything other than what makes their patience worthwhile you’re a misogynistic prick.

If these men could pause with any insight they’d understand that any threshold – one strike, three strikes – suggested by myself or the manosphere isn’t about punishing a woman’s indecisiveness, but rather a pragmatic vetting meant to be efficient for men. That tolerance policy is about conservation of resources and time, not so much retribution (though I’me sure some men entertain that).

  • She flakes on you with no counter offer or marginal reframe? –
    Message: Insufficient interest
  • Stops responding to communications (and possibly resumes after a period)? – The Medium is the Message
  • Wants to bring friends along to a date? –
    Message: you are a rich resource to be exploited, or her interest is so low that she foresees a need to bring friends along to make her date with you entertaining.

The Prince with Interest

What Nismo is comparing here is really an evaluation of interest a woman has in you. I’ve gone into this in the past:

Women with high interest level (IL) wont confuse you. When a woman wants to fuck you she’ll find a way to fuck you. If she’s fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It’s when you patiently while away your time wondering what the magic formula is that’ll bring her around, that’s when you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attentions.

From an evolutionary perspective Hypergamy can’t afford to wait once a woman’s filtering mechanism is satisfied that a man passes for an Alpha. Women will break rules for Alpha men and create more rules for Beta men to have access to her. Keep in mind that first part; women will make access easy for a man she perceives as an SMV superior. Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit.

So to use the apex example, no, a woman can’t afford to confuse Channing Tatum. Mix in the behavioral influences a woman’s ovulatory chemistry predisposes her to with that SMV+ benefit perception and you’ve got dilated pupils, seductive ornamentation, lower vocal intonations and an elevated heart rate – Estrus.

As you might guess, this poses a problem for most guys because, lets face it, most of us aren’t examples of this apex. Even when we make dramatic leaps in self-improvement and physical transformation it’s hard to shake our former self-impressions and our previous degrees of self-confidence.

Back in the early days of SoSuave there was a concept we’d use that I think had a lot of merit – the concept of the Prince. For many men just coming into a Red Pill awareness meant re-imagining oneself in a new, more intrinsically valued light.

For instance, after you understand the basic psychology of why a technique like Cocky & Funny or Amused Mastery works with women, personally applying those dynamics requires a man to view himself in a more valuable context.

As I said, Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit, so it follows that a man should at least reconsider himself as that “better-than her SMV” prospect. Irrespective of that being a reality or not, the idea is a sound one. In fact it’s a law of power:

Law 25 – Re-Create Yourself

Do not accept the roles that society foists on you.  Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience.  Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define if for you. Incorporate dramatic devices into your public gestures and actions – your power will be enhanced and your character will seem larger than life.

And also:

Law 34 – Be Royal in your Own Fashion:  Act like a King to be treated like one

The way you carry yourself will often determine how you are treated; In the long run, appearing vulgar or common will make people disrespect you.  For a king respects himself and inspires the same sentiment in others.  By acting regally and confident of your powers, you make yourself seem destined to wear a crown.

In Amused Mastery, it helps to actually have some context of mastery to source as amusement.

Needless to say, asking a former Blue Pill Beta to simultaneously digest a new Red Pill awareness and revalue his self-worth is a pretty tall order. As I mention in Rejection & Revenge as a man, your existence will be defined by how you deal with rejection, so for a majority of men who’ve been hammered flat for the better part of a lifetime by women’s rejection telling him to adopt the mindset of a Prince is alien to him.

Furthermore, much of his feminine-conditioned self-perception has always taught him to be self-conscious and respectful of women’s default authority. It’s part of men’s previous Beta Game to want to identify with the feminine in order to prove how alike a man is with a woman. This conditioning is really a plan to force compliance to women’s sexual strategy from men, but it’s sold on the belief that being more feminine-like, feminine-sensitive, will set a Beta man apart from other brutish men who aren’t.

When you consider his previous degree of ego-investment in his conditioning, you can get a real appreciation of the unlearning a Red Pill man must do. It’s very difficult for most guys to consider themselves a Prince when they’ve been taught reverent deference to women all their lives.

Qualities of The Prince(ss)

A Prince’s time is valuable. His efforts and attention are gifts he bestows on the woman he’s interested in, and as such that woman’s esteem should be validated by it. She is envied by other women because of the Prince’s interest in her; it confirms there is something about her that sets her apart from other women. Her role becomes one of both humbling gratitude and excited, almost childlike, anticipations of him.

If that comes off like a pipe dream or a fake-it-till-you-make-it motivational screed, it’s because most men are so inured by a lifetime conditioning designed to hold them in the role of expectant, reverent, and deferring lover if they can perform to a woman’s standards. So ingrained is that subservience that a Princess’ acceptance of a man is exalted to an appreciation of spiritual, metaphysical, significance. God ordained her acceptance of him, the fates conspired or he “just got lucky”.

Beta men, in their Blue Pill expectations of women being rational agents, are often dumbfounded by the woman who compulsively returns over and over again to the Alpha ‘asshole’ who doesn’t respect, appreciate and love her like she deserves – like he would if she’d just come to her senses. We call that guy the emotional tampon, but what he doesn’t get is that the woman he’s orbiting is locked in a cycle that only a man with an SMV above her own can induce.

Even if that valuation is just perceptual, a woman’s Hypergamous optimization efforts will predispose her to wanting to lock that man down. This is the danger of relying on apex examples of a dynamic – women must still operate within their respective frames and within their capacity to accurately evaluate the SMV of the men she can realistically attract.

That semi-abusive Jerk boyfriend she loves so much? He’s not Channing Tatum or Brad Pitt, but contextually he’s the guy with the strength of her interest.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

533 comments on “Strength of Interest

  1. But it’s the minimum. If a couple doesn’t want to have kids marriage (at least to me) makes no sense. Just date forever.

    That’s cool too. If that’s what you want to do, I approve the message.

    But marriage can have other benefits, if done right, besides offspring.

    Cultivating companionship that lasts is desirable. We don’t stay young forever you know.

  2. @ Blaximus
    Oh, and btw, get your ( dominant ) sex game up. Ha!
    I’m all “A game” in that regard, hehe.

    Cultivating companionship that lasts is desirable. We don’t stay young forever you know.
    True, but old people can date forever.

    If your buddy called you up on the phone and told you he’d be your BFF if you would sign over half your assets to him you’d laugh. But somehow when a girl asks for half a guys assets to be his friend forever it makes sense.

  3. ^^^
    And I should add that if you didn’t have more assets than her you wouldn’t get the offer to be “best friends forever” in the first place.

  4. @zdr01dz

    That would have to be one hell of a buddy.

    It’s not that you give half your assets to a chick for her friendship.

    You should do all things for yourself, first and foremost. When you’re comfortable and established, if a woman wants to be with you and your with that program, she should step into your world. Careful, there is no true ” our world ” because always remember, the onus is upon you. It never, ever makes sense for a chick to ask for half your assets, regardless of what social convention says.

    I’m not saying any of this is easy. The angle of attack is paramount though.

  5. @zdr01dz

    Seems like you’re talking about women in a particular phase of development/life. Younger women aren’t that asset driven. There’s a word for that… Gold-digger..Hahahaha!!!!

    At an offer to be ” best friends forever ” the answer is ” No “. Say it with as little facial expression as possible, and with as deep a voice as can be mustered.

  6. @ Blaximus
    But the thing is they don’t look at it like us.
    Men are looking for a companion.
    Women are looking for a workhorse.

    If you are a good workhorse she’ll be a good companion.

    We don’t need marriage to have a great companion for life.
    They need marriage to gain legal control over half the output of the workhorse.

    1. @Tilikum
      “I hereby nominate Rollo Tomassi for canonization and sainthood for unwavering and tedious endeavors of great importance but with dense pupils.”
      Hope you can be part of
      @Sun wukong broadcast seems like you really got your shit in order and have all the main principles down. In regards to the red pill.

  7. @zdr01dz

    Haha.. If you’re a good workhorse, all you will be in her eyes is a good workhorse.

    True, we don’t need marriage to have a great companion for life. Marriage isn’t an option for everyone.

    No, they don’t think like us. Rollo has a dozen posts about that very subject. But, to quote Dennis Green ” They are who we thought they were ” ( after TRP that is ) and that’s the point. We are rational and logical. They , for the most part , are the opposite. You have to want to cut through all of the frilly bullshit that can accompany trying to find a woman to possibly build a relationship with.

    But it starts inside your head first. It’s not easy, but it can get easier.

    I was a workhorse at one point in life. A nice Clydesdale. I worked for my family at the expense of myself.

    Now, if I choose to be a workhorse, an old Clydesdale, it is for myself. My family can benefit, but it’s understood that when I no longer want to pull the beer cart, I won’t. What my current wife understands is that as long as I’m happy and content, odds are that the cart will be pulled and I will share the beer with her…wait…did that make sense? How did this get to be about beer?

    1. @Blaximus
      “It’s not easy, but it can get easier.”
      Hell this place is home for me.

      @Tilikum
      How long have you been working on this stuff and do you have your own blog?

  8. @Blaximus
    What my current wife understands is that as long as I’m happy and content, odds are that the cart will be pulled and I will share the beer with her…wait…did that make sense? How did this get to be about beer?

    hehe. Well you could run an experiment. Stop pulling the cart for a while and see if it impacts your wife’s behavior.

    BTW I’m not against marriage. I’m happily married with a family. I have been a hard worker since I was a little kid. But how that I’ve spent some time on the man-o-sphere I’m starting to understand why and how the puzzle pieces fit together.

  9. @zdr01dz

    “Well you could run an experiment. Stop pulling the cart for a while and see if it impacts your wife’s behavior.”

    Been there done that. I work now because I enjoy it for the most part. I no longer fly all over the world though. I spent too much time in London and Hong Kong not even getting out long enough to see anything that wasn’t work related. The most I saw in either place was on the drive to and from the airports. Now the younger cats get the dubious honor.

    ” I’m happily married with a family. I have been a hard worker since I was a little kid. But how that I’ve spent some time on the man-o-sphere I’m starting to understand why and how the puzzle pieces fit together.”

    And there it is.

    Understanding is a wonderful thing. My relationship frustration level is near zero. I’m kinda on autopilot at this point. My family just gets it, I am the master over all I survey…even the crabgrass.

  10. ” . . . those girls are standing with Charlie Sheen . . .”

    Indeed they are. The one on the right isn’t even attractive enough for a quick take. I wouldn’t be photographed with her willingly, never mind pay her for it, and I’m rather older than Charlie. The one in the middle is a bit of a cutie, but not as attractive as my ex-wife, who an ex-boss of mine once described as “looking like she just stepped out of the pages of Penthouse.” For whatever it may be worth, she also had a degree with honors from one of the top rated, exclusive private colleges in New England and a family with a name.

    She spent two years following me around. I acquiesced to marry her when she baited me by buying her own wedding dress. I approved, of the dress; a simple, off white cotton, neo-Victorian sun dress. I did not propose, I simply accepted the bait. She bought her own zircon engagement ring.

    What I brought to the table was: average height, well below average musculature, a bike (push, not motor), a decent quality acoustic guitar and the odd $50 gig.

    What your hypothesis needs to explain is why, to this woman, who had pick of the litter, I was the prize.

    ” If you show up at the table with the cash and she asks you to get on your knees to qualify for her you should throw her right out the door.”

    On that we can agree. The very idea of it, under any circumstances, makes me want to hurl. I get a bit queasy just looking at that picture (which isn’t even a particularly vile one) and wonder why she isn’t trying to slap that silly smirk off his face.

    1. @Tilikum
      I tip my hat to you sir. Way to be human and digital free…
      Maybe that’s why you have these principles down so damn well.
      Sun Wukong apparently has been able to get people an this blog to do something such as massive conference call. Where people can actually hear each other speak about red pill thoughts and life.
      Thanks by the way for bringing up Apex alpha
      I am learning faster how to change my mindset on dealing with my everyday human interactions.
      Appreciate it
      @Sun wukong could you reply with how this thing you set up works? Not entirely sure I explaine that well at all…

  11. @ Rollo
    One of the first concepts I read on this site was that male love was idealistic and female love was opportunistic. When I first read that I knew it was correct but it was difficult for me to work that into a practical roadmap. I’ve thought about it for a long time and I think it comes down to this.

    Male love is idealistic. On a practical level that means men want a companion. We want someone to talk to and spend time with. We want a friend and a lover. When we screw up or fail we want someone that will stick with us. Each man may have a different set of preferences but ultimately it comes down to some type of companionship i.e. time spent with a woman. The woman herself is the object of our desire. We don’t care how much money she makes or if she meets a height requirement.

    When I was a little kid I connected with this episode of Star Trek. On an emotional level I understood “The Companion” character. Men don’t want to be isolated and lonely.

    1. Apex alpha (thinking about while in the room full of dancers doing zouk and kizomba) goodnight everyone…

      You have no control over what the other guy does. You only have control over what you do.
      -A J Kitt

      The mind is the limit. As long as the mind can envision the fact that you can do something, you can do itas long as you really believe 100 percent.
      -Arnold Schwarzenegger

      The principle is competing against yourself. It’s about self-improvement, about being better than you were the day before.
      -Steve Young

      You have to expect things of yourself before you can do them.
      -Michael Jordan

      Concentration is the ability to think about absolutely nothing when it is absolutely necessary.
      -Ray Knight

  12. @ kfg
    What I brought to the table was: average height, well below average musculature, a bike (push, not motor), a decent quality acoustic guitar and the odd $50 gig. What your hypothesis needs to explain is why, to this woman, who had pick of the litter, I was the prize.

    If you were super handsome or had amazing game I can understand her hooking up with you. It happens every day. But marriage, I don’t have an obvious explanation. Girls don’t want a permanent anchor.

    When I married my wife 20 years ago I was a college dropout that delivered pizza. She was a solid HB8 and every guy in school wanted her. The reason she married me was because I had potential. I was a guy that looked like he might make something of himself.

    My guess is that you looked like the kind of guy who would make something of himself through hard work or maybe family connections.

    If you were a nobody that lacked all future potential and you convinced a smoking hot woman to be your wife I salute you. But I can’t explain it.

  13. @ zdro1dz

    Wow. I applaud your blind devotion and investment and part of me is thinking you were probably raised by a single mom, which is a common denominator when men can’t embrace the red pill.

    All I can say is “may your chains rest lightly” and hope when reality comes for you it is at least quick and thorough. To observe reality in a kind of stark and “rock bottom” way is, in my experience, the only way a man as invested in the Blue Pill as seem to be can really move past his conditioning.

    Churchill said “sometimes the only way over something is through it”, but dude, I’m not going to lie….it is going to hurt.

    Best of luck, amigo.

  14. @All – STOP FEEDING THE TROLL. Also, I’m looking forward to joining the convo next Sunday for the first real show, thanks for re-scheduling, Sun.

    So much good stuff here but i have to go to sleep and just can’t digest it all. I’ve also been inside of a female frame for the past 4 days and wow – women are just fucking ridiculous. Let them run anything but dinner and it’s class A clusterfuck.

    Been absorbing Jack Donovan’s work, The Way of Men and can see so clearly how female social circles lack the meritocracy of male social circles. Things like strength, courage and honor are totally absent. They are just making it up as they go along based on ego and emotions and completely unearned belief in their own superiority. Men earn status with each other based on mastery and demonstrations of courage, strength, wisdom and honor. Women? They are just aping what they think leadership looks like. Nietzsche was so right – when women attempt to masculinize themselves, society will descend into a hash of nonsense and is doing so just as he predicted.

    I can’t even begin to get into all the stupid scenarios which unfolded. But the best part for me, post Red Pill, is being detached from it all. I see so clearly how miserable women who aren’t led are. I see how pathetic their decisionmaking skills are about simple things like parking and directions – and these women were college professors and lawyers, and other professional women.

    Funny thing. They all tried to get me to break my eating discipline and I didn’t do so. Most of the women my age there were brood sows and ate like pigs and my discipline was making them feelz bad, lol. Funniest? One of them who literally had to be 200 lbs or more was complaining about her husbands 40 inch waist – and she didn’t even have a fucking waist.

    Wow, just wow.

  15. “If you were super handsome . . .”

    I could play either Loius XIII or one of the 40 thieves, depending on costume and makeup. Apparently this works for some women, but not most. It certainly isn’t classically handsome, never mind super handsome. The best you could say for it is, “at least it’s masculine.” I’d make a really shitty tranny.

    ” . . . you convinced a smoking hot woman to be your wife . . .”

    I did nothing of the kind. My interests lay elsewhere. I had, at one point, rejected a direct proposition from her, I wasn’t interested. She did all the convincing and, as stated, invested years into it.

    “But I can’t explain it.”

    That’ll happen when the evidence contradicts a pet hypothesis.

  16. @ kfg
    Let’s get the data points correct and organized.

    1) Your future wife looked like a Penthouse Pet
    2) She pursued you, not the other way around
    3) You weren’t good looking and had little muscle mass
    4) You owned a bicycle
    5) You had no significant income
    6) You had no potential to increase your income
    7) Over the course of the marriage you didn’t increase your income to any significant degree

    If I’ve got that right have you considered the fact that some of those data points may have played a part in the divorce?

  17. ” . . .have you considered the fact that some of those data points may have played a part in the divorce?”

    Another data point: I left her. She was 29 1/2.

    My rebound fling was an 18 year old who literally stopped traffic when she walked by. Walking through a shopping mall it was like she had a 20 ft. radius Cone of Suspended Animation around her and she wasn’t just drawn that way. I had to next her because, as it turns out, she was trying to monkey branch to me from a guy who a) I liked and b) I worked with. I don’t need that sort of shit in my life for anything or anybody. She ended up marrying the other guy. The poor bastard.

    Penthouse can find a new, hot teenager every month. It’s not like another one won’t be along. I’m seriously considering going ghost for a couple of years just to get some shit done, because they find me and get in my way.

    Whatever it is I had, I still have, at least to some extent, and it isn’t money, because all the high school girls who are obviously attracted to me (some of them aren’t very subtle about it) on sight can see is some guy old enough to be their grandfather, on a bicycle, maybe with a guitar slung across his back and singing old Harry Belafonte songs.

    And you are going to have to work that into your hypothesis, or be written off as irredeemable, or a troll.

  18. @ kfg
    Girl #1) Looking like she just stepped out of the pages of Penthouse.
    Girl #2) My rebound fling was an 18 year old who literally stopped traffic when she walked by. Walking through a shopping mall it was like she had a 20 ft. radius Cone of Suspended Animation around her and she wasn’t just drawn that way.
    Girl(s) #3) all the high school girls who are obviously attracted to me (some of them aren’t very subtle about it)

    What specific trait do you attribute your mad success with the Betty’s too? You wrote earlier that you don’t have good looks or muscle mass. And yet the most attractive women in North America are drawn to you on sight. Perhaps it has something to do with your bicycle?

    http://imgur.com/DJ9skeI

  19. Rather more like this:

    http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hTyj3OL-9CE/TREaQwW3FiI/AAAAAAAABBY/zZJQNKDF6JQ/s1600/Triumph%2Bclub%2Bracer%2B1c%2Blow.jpg

    Someone else with about the same musculature as myself:

    http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/029/617/i02/cheetah-2-120802.jpeg?1343936279

    Yeah, she’s a girl. She’ll beat me in the 100m too. I’ll beat her in the 5k.

    “What specific trait do you attribute your mad success with the Betty’s too? ”

    I have the disadvantage of being on the inside looking out. It started in grade school, when even though I was sickly, frail and the smallest one in my class (not the smallest boy, the smallest one) I had the two alpha girls fighting over me, so I also have the disadvantage of not having learned it the hard way.

    If I gave you my best guess at a simple answer, you’ve already been given it: Frame.

    I am busy going about my own life, doing what interests me to do, for my own reasons and don’t really give a fuck whether you or anybody else approves of that or not and I have been that way all my life. You can get out of my way, you can go along with me (which will require that you contribute something), or you can make it necessary for me to go through you to get to the other side. On the whole my preference is that you get out of my way, no matter how great your tits are. And if you’re not in my way, I’m actually one of the most pleasant people to be around you are likely to meet.

    Rollo has the advantage of being on the outside looking in. Read the blog, and when he tries to explain why meth heads on death row have women lining up to get to them, at least accept the fact that it is true, because it is a fact. Your beautiful theory is just going to have to be recast in light of all the ugly facts.

    And right now what interests me is going to sleep, and my Internet device has a button to shut you off and I’m not afraid to use it.

    Mañana, if I feel like it.

    1. @Tilikum
      “To observe reality in a kind of stark and “rock bottom” way is, in my experience, the only way a man as invested in the Blue Pill as seem to be can really move past his conditioning.

      Churchill said “sometimes the only way over something is through it”, but dude, I’m not going to lie….it is going to hurt.”

      It’s why Wo am thankful to be here and it really does fucking hurt…
      Still very much have habits that are blue pill. But so far I am learning a lot of what to modify.
      Thank you for your input.

  20. @kfg

    “Heels themselves were invented for cavalry, to keep feet from slipping from stirrups. Women didn’t wear heels at all. Heels were made high because hight is a male signifier of dominance. Women, beginning with the nobility, adopted high heels to shrink the dominance gap accorded to hight.

    They’re an early “You go gurrrrl!” thang.”

    Is this for real? I swear I’ve always felt…something… about those high heels but I could never explain what it was.

  21. @kfg

    they find me and get in my way.

    Wanted: your problem.

    @rugby, @tilikum

    @Sun wukong could you reply with how this thing you set up works?

    Essentially I wanted a way to create a roundtable where the guys that aren’t necessarily the big voices in the manosphere could get together and discuss what we learn here. The discussions will be recorded, edited down in to a show for distribution as a podcast aimed at newer folks in TRP community to hopefully help them with seeing that they’re not alone in their difficulties and maybe to help them solve their own problems. Also, having voices associated with the handles puts a more human light on the discussions we have here.

    We use Teamspeak 3 and an offshore server with a priority toward maintaining anonymity so that guys can speak without concern of losing their livelihood and privacy to SJW wrath. There’s more detail, but that’s the gist of it.

  22. @Borfash:

    What’s more, the aristocratic women of the time, and the commoners with the means to adopt the fashions of the upper classes in order to feign a higher social standing than they actually had, wore their dresses at “floor sweeper” length, so the heels couldn’t even be seen. It was an invisible subterfuge. In essence a type of undergarment.

    The first women to wear heels on open display were of the lowest classes, who did so to advertise their sexual availability (it was their bare ankles that they were displaying, not the heels themselves). That is to say, prostitutes. Which is how cut away shoes with high heels on women first came to be associated with sexiness.

    Women didn’t display their bare calves until they had been wearing high heels to feign dominant height for hundreds of years. The idea that they are worn for the effect they have on the appearance of calves is a post hoc explanation.

  23. @kfg
    It started in grade school, when even though I was sickly, frail and the smallest one in my class (not the smallest boy, the smallest one) I had the two alpha girls fighting over me, so I also have the disadvantage of not having learned it the hard way.

    So in addition to everything else you’re sickly and small and the girls literally fight over you. Once again very impressive.

    Fine sir, I enjoy your amazing “stories” of conquest. If you have anything else to say please do, otherwise you are free to leave at any time.
    http://imgur.com/BRe2PtA

  24. @ zdro1dz,

    I understand your focus on money and provisioning as leverage for long-term relationship game. In fact, beyond that, I understand the idea of bringing something of concrete value to the table in a relationship, especially to have leadership and long-term satisfaction. If you come from a position of strength and leadership with that value, rather than one of trying to “please” and “earn” the woman, then it can be effective for relationship management.

    Nevertheless, KFG does show that there is a loophole in that strategy. That loophole is usually known in the most extreme form as Pimp Game. With nothing more than dominance, frame, and a bit of emotional arousal, a guy with little-to-no concrete value can get a woman to give him everything. In fact, she may do anything to earn him and win him, just because he has psychologically increased her perception of his value.

    So, in the male pecking order, we see a broke, skinny guy pushing a bicycle with a guitar. That may be concrete lower value to us men in a hierarchical sense. But, emotionally and psychologically, especially to women, it is not… He has a “don’t give a f**k” attitude (dominance = value). He makes women chase him and doesn’t commit (scarcity = value). He has a guitar (passion + talent = value). He has other women interested in him (social proof = value). Etc. Get the idea?

    In short, sometimes emotional perceptions of value can trump logical assessments of concrete value. If that was not the case, then everyone would just buy $5 shirts from wal-mart, instead of those same shirts for $50 from some boutique with a couture label. If you need more on that, ask Rollo about the magic of branding… Not only can it help you sell things like alcohol for way more than it is actually worth, but it even makes people think it tastes better!

    Now, we can argue that this “illusion of value” cannot last forever in exchange relationships. Although, I would suspect that a few of these gals might have chased KFG for quite a long time. Nevertheless, getting into the “which is better” argument misses the point that you don’t always need concrete value in a relationship – sometimes perception and emotion are all that matter. IMO, even if he doesn’t use it all the time, that is still something important for a more “traditional provider” guy to keep in his pocket. After all, people get sick, hurt, fired, businesses sometimes fail, etc. So, it may be an important tool to keep a relationship or marriage going, at least until concrete value and provisioning can be restored.

  25. Funny how men are “kidults” if they don’t man up and marry post-Epiphany phase women.

    Then it’s a ‘crisis of masculinity’, yet Kate Bollick gets national book deal for Spinster and lucrative lecture engagements for promoting women never get married and be happier for it.

    The Feminine Imperative can’t get its narrative straight.

    Its narrative has always been straight.

    The widespread and unspoken consensus in every society throughout history has been that women are innately fit for marriage. In other words, they do not and should not have to prove they are worthy of marriage. If she has a pair of legs and tits, an uterus and a head on her shoulders, some man should marry her, period. Femininity has never been thought of something that has to be learned and internalized, something that has to be earned as a badge by passing various tests. It’s simply there.

    It logically follows that if a woman ends up as a spinster, it’s men’s fault.

  26. @Zdroidz – Female attraction is different than male attraction – isn’t this entire blog a testimony to that? Women find men who don’t chase them or supplicate themselves to be a challenge. At first they might find you annoying or even scoff at you, but over time, guys who are inner directed and who demonstrate high value with mastery and have social status granted to them by other men – based on their honor and courage and mastery and strength – are noticed by women.

    In fact, in today’s society, such men are rarer and rarer so even guys who aren’t so good at it get attention. Funnniest? The reason that’s so is due to the complete overwhelm of society via the weaponization of the FI via politics (ideology/state/other institutions). This is in part why women treat their beta pussy partners like shit – because hey hate the very men they’ve demanded. It’s also why those men are so wracked with anxiety. Both parties in that tussle are essentially in an identity/existential crisis non-stop. There is no solid foundation of social structures and identities in such a setting, so due to the base power imbalance of sexual dynamics favoring women, the whole mess is skewed towards female power. ‘Cuz no matter what – we still want to fuck them and those who have been trained to believe that by being “good men” we will get their respect and an increase in status just keep trying harder. Such men are bashing themselves in the face with an axe repeatedly, but keep wondering why they are in so much pain?

    I’m a subversisve motherfucker. I get men alone and enter this dialog somehow and every man sees it, nodding vigorously until a woman comes along.

    I realized something really profound for me this weekend. While I don’t play “good man” with the women I’m trying to fuck anymore, I absolutely play that role inside my family. Lol. Fuck them too. The scales are so out of balance and I can’t understand why I don’t get respect – exactly how my marriage felt and the situation with my daughter felt.

    Fuck ’em all. Really. If any woman in my family wants my company, they can call me and beg for it. I’ll neg them and smirk and be aloof and withhold to my heart’s content. Sadly, it’s they who will lose as I’ve done tremendous things for my family – and nobody else bothers usually.

    I think I’ve turned a corner here. I’m not even really angry at them, I just see how ridiculous it all is so clearly. Fyi – the Jack Donovan book, The Way of Men is a must read for all here. If you don’t, you will not really get what is going on.

    @Sun – You had talked about doing some prep for the show next Sunday night, having some content or a topic. I’d love to talk about The Way of Men if that works. Or I could do politics, lol…If I need to prep can you let me know sooner rather than later as I want to do a good job. Thanks.

  27. @ Dr. Jeremy

    I’m not entirely certain if KFGs stories of conquest are entirely based on accurate information. hehe

    But I do agree that men with no concrete value or substance do score hot women. It happens every day. But these guys face an insurmountable problem. They have an amazing sales pitch and no product.

    The evidence that this plan can’t work over the long run is that in lower income areas there are virtually no attractive women. Sooner or later all the attractive women marry up and out.

  28. @Sun Wukong: “Wanted: your problem.”

    Yeah, I know, which is why I don’t talk about it much unless it’s on point somehow. I realize I’m the odd man out around these parts, learning how to be less attractive to women (don’t do meth and go on a murder rampage. Right. Got it).

    But I’ll give you an example of how it can be a real problem in a way that isn’t directly associated with women:

    I was working in store sales for a while, to reliably raise a small wad of starter capital, and was having a pleasant chat with the store manager when a woman walked up to me and said, “You look like a manager. I have a question.”

    I never had an amicable moment with the store manager again and left before I would have otherwise over the matter.

    Ultimately social power doesn’t come from being able to raise one’s standing, but from being able to raise or lower it as the situation demands.

  29. @ Dr. Jeremy

    I work in sales so this experience might be relevant.

    At one point in my career I sold an average product. I did a great job selling it and I sold my fair share but overall the experience was painful. Many customers complained about the product and more than a few people were rude to me. I saved a few classic hate emails that I received. I never posted huge numbers no matter how hard I worked. After a year and a half I hated it and got out.

    I switched to a high quality product. I didn’t know as much about it so my pitch wasn’t as confident. Despite that my entire world turned around. Sales went up and customers loved me. I got good at selling it and sales went up further still. I felt good again.

    That experience convinced me that although both product and pitch are important product is the most important. The fact that so many beautiful women marry rich men tells me that I’m not entirely off base.

  30. @ Glenn

    Yeah, we tend to talk less about man-to-man dynamics on this and other manosphere sites. Jack Donovan really helps fill that gap, but more discussion on the topic would be a great thing.

    @ Sun Wukong

    If we’re talking topics here, I’ve been thinking a lot about how being in an unreflective state – a state of pure experiencing – is such a cornerstone of game and charisma. I wouldn’t mind talking about what that is and how to get there.

  31. @Forge – Thanks so much for recommending Jack Donovan. We are doing exactly what he describes on this forum – forming our gang. Men crave this. It’s the final piece for me, so really, I can’t thank you enough.

    I’ve been in an existential crisis for 27 years, uggh. But I slept well for 5 hours last night for the first time in a very long time and I didn’t smoke weed or take Unisom. Living in the hell that our society is for men, fathers, boys and all things masculine without a roadmap has been so anxiety producing. Constantly second guessing myself, constantly doubting my masculine impulses and truly internalizing a sense that I was somehow defective crushed my naturally energetic, joyful and playful spirit. In my case the childhood abuse, denigration and other early losses I suffered compounded all this into a morass of self-loathing and hopelessness that wore me down to a nub of a man.

    Fuck that. I now have a forward looking vision of me and my life that I’m certain I will achieve. Really – I’m not just saying that. I’ve achieved mastery in business and physical fitness before. I already know how to run a good, happy, powerful life – so for me it’s really about getting all the bullshit out of the way. And this site has been the largest force by far in helping me achieve this.

  32. @ zdro1dz

    I don’t think you are entirely off base either. However, I also don’t think that the product is always more important than the pitch. In some instances, you can sell “invisible clothes” to the emperor for large sums of money. Whether that works or not, depends on a few variables.

    1) The customer/woman has to have an intangible and emotional need to be filled, rather than a practical one. For example, if I need to get to work and my car does not run, what brand it is makes little difference. However, if I have other means of transportation, then the make/model is all the difference as to whether I’d buy it as a show piece – even if it didn’t run. The same goes for women and their tangible versus emotional needs. However, more and more, social services, laws, and careers are ensuring women’s tangible needs are met – without men. So, whether the male product actually delivers a tangible benefit is increasingly of less concern than the emotional, psychological, and social value that it is perceived to have. The same might be said for a lot of status-oriented and disposable products in society.

    2) Selling people “nothing” is often an emotionally difficult process for the salesman. As you said above, you “felt good again” when you could provide others with a quality product that actually served a need. Such an exchange helps a man feel good about himself, have a positive identity, and develop a sense of character. All of those things are validating and often help make life meaningful. So, it is not easy (or often possible) for a guy to turn his back on all of that, even if he can get money, sex, or anything else for “nothing” in return. That is why the world is not filled with con men…

  33. @Rollo – I know you get thanks all the time and that I’ve thanked you before, but truly, I’ve arrived at place that I never thought I could achieve in life. Self-actualization. I am a proud, unapologetic man possessing many skills, courage, strengths and mastery that is directed towards the various goals and projects I’m undertaking in my life.

    I’ve even stopped smoking pot without noticing it (was not a pothead but used it as a way to relieve anxiety and for sleep problems at times). Now? The idea of walking around addled and in a daze seems stupid and I’m sleeping better with no help – a huge victory for me. Sure, I’ll probably spark it up from time to time at a party or maybe playing some music – but as a regular feature of my life? Fuck that too, it looks so unappealing to me now.

    Thanks. From the bottom of my heart, Rollo. You have figuratively saved my life, and perhaps literally too as I’ve thought of suicide so many times it doesn’t even shock me anymore. Now? I’m laughing as I try to get my head around the idea of taking my own life. Fuck that too.

    Last. I’ve been mini-sugardaddying a 20 year old 9 (let’s call her “D”), and have now converted her to a “life coaching client” (one of the many skills I’ve acquired in my life). She fucks like a minx – my last session with her was two hours of world-class sex that was so good that I had to use all the skills I’ve learned here to not fall head over heels for her. I’m her mentor and she fucks me in exchange for that and a little spoiling. I’m taking her to Victoria’s Secret to buy some lingerie she’d like to wear for me, and take her to nice places. Yes, I do some provisioning – but in exchange she’s now my bareback fuckbuddy, lol. Really. She craves alpha and even the tiny bit that was seeping out of me reflexively is like catnip for her. And she’s so dirty and playful at the same time, lol. If it weren’t happening to me for real, I wouldn’t believe it. Seriously, she may be the best fuck of my life – but guys, if she gives me shit, “Next”. I already nexted her once which is how I made all this happen, but she came back. When they come at you it’s completely different. And once you get that, the shit that so many fucked up women dish out when you are trying to “court” them seems so disgusting that you will not be able to put up with it for a second.

    Older Guys – don’t be afraid to use a little provisioning wisely. Part of the older man vibe is being financially successful and if she’s willing to be submissive to me (she’s naturally submissive and likes me to be rough with her) I’m willing to do a bit of provide/protect for her. None of this would be possible without Rollo – none of it.

    @Zdroidz – Stop acting like you have some standing to second guess KFG’s comments. You are the one who looks like an jerk here, fyi, not him. I mean, why are you so hell bent on cutting him down? Seems like something he said really got under your skin. Look there instead of trying to debunk him, it will make for better reading…

    1. Thanks Glenn, I’m glad to read all of that. I have to keep coming back to comments and emails like this whenever I read Blue Pill/Purple Pill/ and sometimes MRAs criticize TRP for poisoning men with bad attitudes that don’t align with their feminine expectations.

      It’s good to see real positive change in men’s lives.

  34. Older fella here who likes dancing and is good at it. Have done a decent job over the years at removing beta non-verbal body language and injecting just enough alpha on the dance floor as women of all ages like dancing with me and often don’t mind my hands on their bodies in ways that would have surprised me in my blue pill days. I see how Heartiste’s point about being aggressive plays out here, from summoning a girl to dance with me (I don’t ask), leading her onto the floor, taking the lead and holding the frame (I never let a woman back-lead, if I find one who does that, I tell her to relax and wait on my lead, most will comply; the rare ones who don’t, I won’t dance with them again), making eye contact (this one is gold), etc. But as a confirmed introvert, I dislike small talk so much I would much rather dance than talk and I’m not good at conversations in loud venues, feels like too much effort. I get a phone number once in awhile, but otherwise I feel sorta stuck at that plateau. I’m thinking the next step is doing a venue change and introduce some rapport generating questions to get a conversation going, will just have to figure that out.

    Just saying where I am at these days, like so many men who have started ditching blue pill in the last decade, I’m very much a work in progress figuring out his path forward. But the point I really wanted to make was about these guys that logically from a man’s point of view have very little going for them and yet still get interest from women. They have one thing many men don’t have, that is how their non-verbal body language goes with their appearance to be so compelling to the women they’re attracting. Seems to be everything about them says “assume the sale”. I see that one play out repeatedly and obviously I still have a ways to go in that area as well with the verbal stuff. Not to mention I wish I had learned this as a young man. But we male logical thinkers have to acknowledge there is a different level of awareness of how we’re looking to others regardless of male or female onlookers, that is part of becoming red pill and these guys that pull women despite logically appearing to have very little actually have much to teach us about that as Rollo keeps showing us in his way.

  35. @ Dr. Jeremy
    However, more and more, social services, laws, and careers are ensuring women’s tangible needs are met – without men. So, whether the male product actually delivers a tangible benefit is increasingly of less concern than the emotional, psychological, and social value that it is perceived to have.

    That statement hit the bullseye. I believe it is the core problem that M/F relationships face in the modern world.

    Evolution favored women that were attracted to Self+1 and repulsed by Self-1. This gameplan worked perfect for 250,000 years and the result is the physically large, strong men that we see today. Outside of hookup culture women “next” men that are shorter, weaker, less intelligent or have less status than they have. As evidence of this wealthy women want even wealthier men. Modern men face a tough problem that they’ve never faced before. Women are turned off by men that aren’t superior and because of technology and the welfare state women have moved up. Technology and mass immigration has pushed the wages for working class men way down. If you’re a man in the top 20% life is great. If you’re a man in the middle or bottom life gets harder every year. Women are treating men accordingly.

  36. ” . . . you’re sickly . . .. ”

    That was then, this is now. Although the basis for my health issues is genetic, I have learned to control them entirely by means of diet and exercise and am the only man I know of my age who is on no medications whatsoever. I took a couple Tylenol for a fever about 15 years ago.

    ” . . . and small . . .”

    As already stated, I did eventually attain average height. I’m not a dwarf. My growth was stunted, but most men in my family are over 6′, so stunted is relative. As an adult the situation is exemplified by having 6″ wrists. I did not attain average breadth. My bone structure could be described as “delicate.” My muscle composition as “slow twitch.” An effect of my genetic problems is under production of an enzyme required for muscular growth. I am a legitimate hard gainer and will never be Huuuuuuuuuuge.

    Nonetheless, I know how to make the most of what I am capable of and, like the cheetah, am visibly fit for task and people routinely overestimate my weight by 20 lbs as a result. A lightweight, yes. Some sunken chested, hipster stick boy, no.

    ” I enjoy your amazing “stories” of conquest.”

    The story of conquest I have told:

    a) Failing to conquer the woman I was interested in.
    b) At least in part by allowing myself to be conquered by a woman I was not interested in, to the point of rejecting sexual offers.

    It is a public admission of failure, rooted in a deep personal flaw. Yay me!

    “But these guys face an insurmountable problem.”

    If they are trying to get married and live happily ever after in a McMansion they never spend any time in because all their time is taken up by the need to meet the mortgage and beauty salon payments.

    My goal is to avoid that like the plague. I measure my success in meeting my goals, not yours.

  37. @Sun –
    “Agree so much with this. I tell a woman I’m a well paid software engineer, she’s instantly gonna toss me in the BB box. I just feed women bullshit these days.

    “I’m a puppy phrenologist.”
    “I’m a vaginal inspector.”
    “I’m an international man of mystery.”
    “I’m no one of consequence, you just need to know I fuck like a wild animal.”

    Anything but the truth. Bitches don’t need the truth. They need my dick.”

    https://unimelbadventures.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/3221507-2307282-55860__jj_jameson_laughing_meme_1.jpg

    Truer words bruv, truer words….Made my evening!

    1. @
      hoellenhund2

      “Femininity has never been thought of something that has to be learned and internalized, something that has to be earned as a badge by passing various tests. It’s simply there.”

      Yes that brings up a two year mission from age 18 now that’s mandated in the Lds faith…

      It’s an amazing shit test that isn’t required for females but mandated for males…

      @Glenn
      “I realized something really profound for me this weekend. While I don’t play “good man” with the women I’m trying to fuck anymore, I absolutely play that role inside my family. Lol. Fuck them too. The scales are so out of balance and I can’t understand why I don’t get respect – exactly how my marriage felt and the situation with my daughter felt.”

      That my brother is the essence of my upbringing. But I didn’t get married… So glad I got to read that today…

      “Living in the hell that our society is for men, fathers, boys and all things masculine without a roadmap has been so anxiety producing. Constantly second guessing myself, constantly doubting my masculine impulses and truly internalizing a sense that I was somehow defective crushed my naturally energetic, joyful and playful spirit. In my case the childhood abuse, denigration and other early losses I suffered compounded all this into a morass of self-loathing and hopelessness that wore me down to a nub of a man.”

      Yeah it’s something that helps me as well weird Glenn I am 27 and not sure I would be alive for my life span dealing with that without the help here.

      “Now? I’m laughing as I try to get my head around the idea of taking my own life. Fuck that too. ”

      Yeah fuck that too!!!
      Shit I feel weird spelling that…

      @kfg
      “Ultimately social power doesn’t come from being able to raise one’s standing, but from being able to raise or lower it as the situation demands.”

      Yeah makes me think of performing…

      @Forge the sky
      “being in an unreflective state – a state of pure experiencing – is such a cornerstone of game and charisma.”
      Here here

      @Random angeleno
      “from summoning a girl to dance with me (I don’t ask), leading her onto the floor, taking the lead and holding the frame (I never let a woman back-lead, if I find one who does that, I tell her to relax and wait on my lead”

      Well that certainly apples to me when I dance now. I still follow and enjoy it but with an alpha mindset it gets me away from learning to lead well.

      @zdr01dz
      “Technology and mass immigration has pushed the wages for working class men way down. If you’re a man in the top 20% life is great. If you’re a man in the middle or bottom life gets harder every year. Women are treating men accordingly.”

      Especially her in DC

      @Rollo
      “It’s good to see real positive change in men’s lives.”

      Sometimes I think you underestimate how important you are.
      If I knew about your blogs in the harsher times in my life nothing would phase me because I would understand WHY…

      @all
      Jus got done viewing the water diviner by Russell Crowe it’s the first time in awhile that I saw positiv male attributes first r rated film in my life was gladiator and this was about having three sons fighting a war no one would appreciate.
      Farthers are so damn underrated…

  38. Glenn, “Female attraction is different than male attraction – isn’t this entire blog a testimony to that? Women find men who don’t chase them or supplicate themselves to be a challenge. At first they might find you annoying or even scoff at you, but over time, guys who are inner directed and who demonstrate high value with mastery and have social status granted to them by other men – based on their honor and courage and mastery and strength – are noticed by women. ”

    – And they say men like to chase. I never did.

    Oh the irony of a gay man teaching straight men how to be masculine.

    No homo(phobe).

  39. DeNihilist

    May 9th, 2015 at 1:55 am

    So MYG, Tony reads Heartiste and steals his ideas to make millions. Someone should let Heartiste know.
    ____________________________

    No. Both Tony and Heartiste, and RSD, and, and, and… get a lot of their stuff from David Deida’s Way of the Superior Man and his corny new age masculine-feminine “polarity work” .

    Even then I doubt Roissy would recommend a man just stand there while his wife hits him as in this video

  40. Robbin’s “relationship philosophy” is basically that husbands have to “be a man” and suck it up buttercup while placating their wives’ infantile behavior.

  41. For those of you wondering where Roissy and the entire PUA scene is getting their new age “polarity” jargon its from David Deida, who had a PR manager some years ago who was trying to get him into the PUA seminar circuit. David’s regular clientele of upper middle class crunchy California yuppies vehemently objected to giving out this “exclusive tantric wisdom” to a bunch of dudes trying to get laid in clubs . My own parents who are in their 60s did a workshop with him 20 years ago and returned home acting like cultish brainwashed zombies.

    http://deida.info/

  42. @Rollo – A comment on the FI. I understand what you mean by it – and I completely agree that it has become so overwhelming and omnipresent and ominpotent. In fact, Jack Donovan’s work has deepened greatly my appreciation for how masculinism has been formally denigrated and decimated intellectually, personally, collectively, institutionally and culturally. My only disagreement with you is that it doesn’t get that kind of power without the radical egalitarianism and collectivism of the left (and I can prove that with all my fancy citations etc).

    The FI was so overwhelmingly obvious to me this weekend. My niece graduated from a top liberal arts school and the entire institution is dominated by female imperatives – not values. In fact, what’s really going on is that they are abandoning female values and are trying to ape masculinity but don’t have the first clue as to what it is to be masculine. They play a caricature of it, and that’s why women lead organizations are a fucking joke.

    They bash and criticize masculinity without even understanding how powerful it has been and how it has driven the success of humanity. Male social relationships and culture are quite sophisticated and we are not only in competition with each other. In fact, what we are doing most of all is cooperating to provide and protect for our family/community/nation/society. We have highly developed ways of encouraging each other to strive to be courageous and strong and to have honor and to master things. We fairly evaluate each other and don’t “punch down” too hard on the men of lesser status because we know all too well that our status could fall, we could be bested so we “co-ompete” with each other. And we respect all men who strive to better themselves.

    What we won’t tolerate is the guard who falls asleep on the watch. We won’t tolerate men who openly flaunt effeminate ideals that denigrate masculinity. We won’t tolerate the man who gives up. Bitches couldn’t ever handle that heat – a heat men face every day.

    The most penetrating insight of all that I got out of The Way of Men and this site is realizing that women are reacting to the status men give each other. You see, they trust how we allocate status – they know they are shit at it.

    Amazing stuff.

    @All – Don’t feed the troll. It will eventually go away if nobody responds to it ever. Keep it up, and just scroll on by the drivel. What a great community, I’m so happy to be part of it.

    @Rugby – Thanks man, I get so much out of your comments.

  43. @Glenn

    Remember Glenn, According to a woman from Yale, the use of Game is potentially deadly to men with mental problems. So really, you’re just taking your life into your own hands by even reading what Rollo writes. Oh, and Also, Since there are anecdotes inferring that some people turned cultish from letting themselves be influenced by people from whom Roosh may or may not be using terminology, this means that Game is a cult.

    I’m certain most men here are familiar with the term FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt).

    Rollo should almost be proud that he’s raised the attention of what appears to be someone/some organization who is likely paid to spread FUD. Grats Rollo, you’ve achieved a level of fame that made the for-pay activist organizations assign you your own personal FUD/Troll.

  44. @zdr01dz

    I’m gonna bet kfg ain’t full of shit at all. I’ve known enough dudes like that (and found myself going “How the bloody hell…” enough times) to know what he’s talking about is common.

    I think where your sales analogy falls down is that you were running in to the big difference between sales and marketing. A “higher quality” product in a lot of cases is just a case of being marketed better. Bad marketing makes pitching to the customer harder, good marketing makes it a breeze. I’d consider a man’s inner confidence and overall vibe to be his marketing, and his approach to be his pitch. If your marketing is awesome AND your pitch is awesome, you can’t sell enough dick.

    Hmmm…

    @Glenn, @Forge

    No need to really prep outside of having a couple 5-10 minute topics ready to bat around. Part of what I want guys to see is how everyone reasons through this stuff and to not be afraid of confrontation and discussion in the process. Too much prep and it’s not really a natural conversation anymore, ya dig?

    Definitely good ideas though, keep them in your pocket and toss them out on Sunday.

    @kobayashii1681

    I aim to please, though booze and tips in appreciation are both accepted. 😉

  45. Glenn – “In fact, what’s really going on is that they are abandoning female values and are trying to ape masculinity but don’t have the first clue as to what it is to be masculine. They play a caricature of it, and that’s why women lead organizations are a fucking joke.”

    ^^^Cargo Cult Masculinity^^^

    Wear the costumes, claim the status, take the names and titles and wonder why the result don’t automatically manifest. Then blame the men for not being supportive.

  46. Roissy’s, RSD’s and the entre PUA world’s masculine-feminine-polarity guru is an effeminate Jewish guy

  47. @ Sun Wukong
    I’m gonna bet kfg ain’t full of shit at all. I’ve known enough dudes like that (and found myself going “How the bloody hell…” enough times) to know what he’s talking about is common.

    KFG describes himself as a chick magnet. Penthouse models, girls with 20′ cones of beauty and the chicks at a local highschool find him irresistible. Hot poon pursues him to such a degree that he can barely get anything done in life.

    I’m seriously considering going ghost for a couple of years just to get some shit done, because they find me and get in my way.

    If even one part of that is true the most interesting man in the world should take lessons from him. 😎

    http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/283/410/33b.jpg

  48. “If you think Deida is in anyway remotely an influence of Roissy, you need to go back to licking windows with your special needs friends.”

    He started quoting directly from Deida 3-4 years ago.

  49. Rollo,

    I have now read your article linked above three times. I must plead guilty to being dense. Is your referencing that supposed to be informatively descriptive of the situation Glenn described or am I missing something?

  50. hahaha, Don’t be jealous. There is a statistically significant chance that you have the highest IQ on this board. You’ve got something that everybody else wants for themselves and their children. People are jealous of you!

  51. Nah, it’s just uncomfortable to have a deeply held paradigm directly challenged. It’s easier to disqualify than regroove. That’s why he has to recast what I’ve said into a straw man version.

    For instance, I never said anything about Penthouse models. That’s his characterization. The fact of the matter is I’ve only met one actual Penthouse Pet of the Month. Tiny little thing, cute as a button and very personable. I enjoyed chatting with her. She was selling lubricants.

  52. @zdr01dz

    Ask a bunch of guys if they’d rather get laid any time they like by chicks they find attractive or be a genius. I would be firmly in the former camp, as I’d wager the vast majority of guys would.

  53. Not saying I think it’s impossible to have both or that I’m not gonna try, just that given the choice between the two being Chad Thundercock beats being Ned Nerd any day.

  54. Human DNA didn’t self-replicate by selecting for intelligence, it self-replicated by putting replication at the top of the priority list. Intelligence just made it easier to come out on top in the competition. Sun’s right, I’d rather have a guaranteed lifetime supply of varied pussy than be the smartest man in the world.

    Then again, I recently watched a fairly biased documentary about the Deepwater Horizon disaster. Over the course of the documentary they demonstrated details of the lifestyle of most of the salt-of-the-earth people whose fishing-industry jobs were impacted by the disaster… My mind was blown, I couldn’t relate, couldn’t comprehend the idea of being a crab-meat-extractor since I was six years old until my late 40s, early 50s, with a couple of kids, living in some cross between an RV park and a mobile home park in what appears to be part-forest, part neighborhood junkyard, all while being so disconnected from reality as to literally fear for my life and property when some guy in a suit offers me free money as a settlement for BP’s mistakes (a settlement that my own community clamored for). I’m very glad I can use my brain, and wasn’t so discouraged from using it when young as to be living as demonstrated in that area of the States.

  55. A short note from me: Rollo, I want to thank you sincerely for your blog and your ongoing Ideas. I took a breather from posting the last week, because in real life I took a breath, stopped to smell the blooms in early May at my home and on my hunting farm. I feel the sense of Empowerment by red pill truths and better mastery (to some extent) of married man game. Empowerment in Rollo’s terms: ” The definition of Power is not financial success, status or influence over others, but the degree to which we have control over our own lives.”

    I had a tough March through April in My professional life, Staff Call, conference and study and take the Boards. I faced personal milestones of my 25 th Anniversary, my wife’s 50th, birthday with trepidation, but sailed through those landmarks with good performances. Sitting at Mother’s day brunch with two nice children who’s parent’s (my wife and I) respect greatly and they have respect for us is comforting.

    I just feel like the struggle to gain traction, and control over everything is working for me lately. Thanks to you all.

    All in all this blog has been terrifically therapeutic for me. And I respect the posters here, especially this latest strength of interest post, (except for MYg–of course–whose ramblings are antithetical to the cause). I just wanted to step off the merry go round for a second because of MYG poisoning the well of knowledge with his douchebaggery.

    I have a lot of respect for the congruence of postings of Glenn, Sun, Tilikum, the old Pua regulars and sfcTon.

    @Glenn, just as much as Rollo has improved my marriage through red pill truths and game (by the way Deida make me puke purple ten years ago), I really think Donovan’s book literally changed my life. He gave me the pieces to understand how the way of a masculine vetted gang, the core principles a man needs to be good at being a man, and the importance of realizing how the FI really is fucked up (i.e. your travails at your niece’s graduation (which by the way did you “say Hey, Graduate….Congratulations on getting through the easiest part of life!”).

    I took those pieces of Donovan’s and assembled them into a way for me to relate to my several social groups and into a framework I can work with in being a role model to my son as he navigates the fem-centric society. He just finished sophmore year of college and is embarking on a month of college sponsored study in Europe.

    So, again, just a short note of why I got off the furious rate of comments I was making. I found myself in a good place. I’m usually good at dealing with frustrations. But in the last week I just found myself the least frustrated ever. Hope it lasts. I won’t be resting on my laurels.

  56. @ Sun Wukong
    @ Jeremy

    An endless supply of varied poon does sound appealing.
    But with a 200 IQ I could count cards in Vegas and make millions.

    And with those millions I could purchase an endless supply of varied poon. It’s a toss up. 😎

    I’m no Mensa member. I assume from your writing that you guys are both smarter than I am. But I credit my success largely to the fact that I’m a good thinker. I had to think (and work) my way past numerous obstacles. If my IQ was 100 I’d still be delivering pizza. So for that I’m eternally grateful to the universe.

  57. @zdr01dz

    But with a 200 IQ I could count cards in Vegas and make millions.

    Well, if I really wanted to get rich off IQ alone, I’d worm my way in to high finance and steal like the rest of the bankers. You don’t need IQ to count cards. Just concentration, memory, and balls of steel to deal with the inevitable shit storm when they come down on you with a herd of roided up mafia palookas.

  58. @ Sun Wukong

    Pretend you’re from Wall Street, contact Congress and tell them you need $700 Billion within 72 hours. “If money isn’t loosened up, this sucker could go down!”

    This plan has worked before. You might actually get the money.

  59. @zdro1ds,

    Your pedestalization of KFG (GRGP) is informing. You say you’re in sales and thats interesting. Did you find the ‘sphere looking for ways to improve your close or capture rate? Maybe recently start selling intangibles and failing to make your nut?

    Its making sense because you are so hyper-focused on tangible “product” strengths that you literally can’t even begin to be functionally aware of abstract concepts.

    I submit this is why you can’t quite seem to grasp that the externalizations of a “product” are merely tools of measurement for the common denominator, and not inherent value. See, girls cant see the abstract either, and operate as much on feeling value as you are functioning on empirical value.

    Where women have seemed to evolve past you (and I suspect your business “game”) is that they have learned to harness men and the FI to provide the due diligence required for them to supplant their lack of abstract thought and really terrible (generally) judgement.

    You don’t think car reviews and the endlessly supplied sales and product data is written for male buyers do you? Hell no, its for chick. Course they never read it but it make them FEEL good to know some nerdy drone male has done the work 😉

  60. @Rollo – Thanks for linking those posts and that comment from the guy in Brazil. But for me it’s interesting to see how women are trying to be masculine, it’s like watching the early attempts of a young boy trying to act like a man. I also think in the age of open hypergamy men’s response has to change. We may be the leading edge,

    @Sifrellc – Amen brother. The combo punch of Tomassi and Donovan will rock your world. And I don’t think that Donovan without Tomassi would be nearly as powerful.

    @All – Stop feeding the troll. Don’t mention it, don’t respond to it, just completely ignore it. It thrives on attention and without any, it will die.

    As for IQ and pussy, let’s just keep in mind that IQ is very imprecise measure of intelligence. For example, I’m a low genius but am in the top .3% of the population wrt abstract reasoning and verbal skills. It’s much more telling to look at aptitudes across specific cognitive areas.

    If you are a math geek, I don’t think that’s gonna get you laid much. But if you are like me and can transfix a women with a line of bullshit and get inside her head and also demonstrate keen intelligence about a very wide range of topics, yeah, I actually credit that with much of my younger success with women. I developed my own “game” without any instruction using NLP etc. I still fucked it all up cuz it was an incomplete model. But I never chased women (or rather figured out quickly it was useless to do so) and also knew that they liked direct, aggressive men, even when they pretended they didn’t. I say smarts really matter if it’s the right kind of smarts.

  61. @ Tilikum
    Did you find the ‘sphere looking for ways to improve your close or capture rate?

    If have 11 and 13 year old sons. They are just at the age that girls are beginning to enter the picture. I went looking for info for them and instead ran across the man-o-sphere. The first site that I can remember reading was Rollo’s. The article might have been this one.

    Good Girls Do

    It was an amazing article and it completely sucked me in. It is a fascinating topic.

    Its making sense because you are so hyper-focused on tangible “product” strengths that you literally can’t even begin to be functionally aware of abstract concepts.

    Over the long run fundamentals always win. That’s why I focus on tangible benefits. No amount of sales skill is going to convince you to dump your cable modem and go back to dial-up. Could a salesperson convince a small percentage of people to switch? Sure. And those people would all be halfwits.

    Both sales and product are important. No doubt about it. Without game my wife would get bored of me. But between these two I’d rather be guy #1.

    #1) Heart surgeon, wealthy, 6 pack abs, terrible shit game
    #2) Circle K Clerk, poor, fat, amazing game

  62. Re;Sales – Let’s take that subject a different direction. I do sales coaching for cloud startup entrepreneurs, have sold big tech to major corps my whole life and have a good track record. I also set up leadgen and sales teams for startups, and help with big deals and lighthouse client acquisition. You could say that I know a thing or two about sales…

    But I’m noticing that the corporate culture has changed with the rest of our culture dramatically over past few years and techniques that I once used to great effect are simply not working anymore. One of the things I’m trying to do is digest all I’ve learned here and apply it in B2B sales. A few thoughts for you all and I would love to hear reactions.

    1. Disappearing – Prospects go silent now in ways they simply never used to. In the middle of deals, all the time. It’s bizarre and maddening. I deal with it by being patient but it’s really difficult. It even happens with people you know. I say this is feminine behavior, just like when they stop responding to texts.

    2. Prospecting – You have to appeal to a woman’s fear and emotions when you prospect. Getting them to feel good isn’t enough to make them act. Using provocative statements and creating “dread” is important. It’s also useless to chase female prospects. You have to create pull with your messaging and the dynamics of the message.

    3. Start small with low risk – Women are weather vanes and will take the path of least resistance in a deal. Big deals are hard to do with women, period. All big deals (over 500k) I’ve ever done have been with men, not women. But women are in the drivers seat much more. As an aside, this is one reason the cloud is taking off. You can sign up for a cloud service and most people in your organization won’t even know, and it costs a few bucks or a few hundred a month.. The CIO of Comcast recently did an audit of cloud services and expected 100s but found 1000s in use. This kind of “creeping” sale, from the bottom up seems to work very well for women. Extremely low risk and build by increments.

    4. Women know how to fake being reasonable and it’s quite confusing. Midlevel women are the absolute worst as they will play along but the second they have to stick their necks out they just drop off the radar screen.

    I’m sure there are some gambits that can be developed to sell better to women. They do still react to dominance and also attraction is key. I know for a fact that women supported me and gave me access because they found me attractive.

  63. ^^^
    Guy #1 can eventually find an attractive woman who will overlook his boring personality.

    Guy #2 will never be able to find an attractive woman who will overlook his lack of current and future prospects. At the very least he has to pretend he is going somewhere in the future. And he knows this.

  64. @ Glenn

    Let’s say I know a few things about coaching, consulting, corp sales (and corp politics) too 😉

    1. Sell women strong and give them every reason to say yes. Unshakable frame no matter how uncomfortable it gets.They hate themselves, what they leveraged for their position, and just want to feel good. LOTS of bullet pointed positives.

    2. Lead with the negative (problem), close on positives (solutions). For men reverse this.

    3. Foster a “you and her against the world” relationship absolutely chock full of competence.

    4. Learn the body language and subtext of flirt like it’s a second, fluid language. Learn to see what she is NOT doing and feed that.

    God there is literally soo much more but when you get it, it becomes fluid and easy. The risk will come from the men around her that will not appreciate your mastery of her mood, and sabotage you.

    Speak to the overt agenda in her little helpers psyche’s. Basic. Sports, booze, fellowship.

  65. @ Glenn
    Your sales are probably very different from mine. I’m selling $1000 to maybe $10,000 at a time. 9 out of 10 times the decision maker is a man. I put in a bid for the project and make the sale maybe 50% of the time. If the guy has to talk to his partner it’s the kiss of death. I’m not getting that sale.

    With my other company each sale is much smaller and almost all of my customers are women. Since it’s a small amount of money the sale is almost automatic. When my phone rings or I get an email they’ve already decided to buy 99% of the time.

    With both companies the phone rings all day. They’re the kind of businesses where people come looking for me not the other way around. Long ago I was a web developer so my job is to get my companies to the top of Google. That’s the whole game for a little guy like me. I get the jobs and then forward them to my employees.

    The reason I’ve been on this board so much lately is because I’m programming websites in my 1st monitor while I read news and blogs in my 2nd monitor. I’m stuck on my computer.

  66. @ Glenn
    @ Tilikum

    With me there is no schmoozing, politics and little small talk. I show up at the job site, explain the problem and what I can do about it.

    My entire sales presentation is knowing and explaining information about the problem and solution. If the job looks too dangerous I pass it on to someone with equipment that is more suited to the problem. In this way I make friends with my competitors.

    It sounds boring but it gets the job done. I’m in and out in minutes and make the sale half the time.

  67. @Rollo

    Thanks again gentlemen, it means a lot. But I did hear that Aunt Giggles just cut her “coaching” rates in half ($75/hour) LMAO!

    For one hour of her time I could buy both your books, all of Roosh’s, The Way of Men, and maybe even a copy of 48 Laws of Power on my tablet and get better results.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlKL_EpnSp8

    Just Sayin.

  68. Glenn, I have no sales experience whatsoever, but I did cry a tear reading Aaron Cleary’s book Enjoy the Decline. Life changes and you adapt.

    I might preface my thoughts by saying that ever since Napster gave me free music in 1999, I turned into these females you sell to. The digital age and Napster and torrents (a women wouldn’t recognize a torrent if it hit her in the side of the head), Facebook validation, living in the suburbs and living with a blue pill husband, the Feminine imperative “winning” like a dog catching a car. I’m not ashamed these days of torrenting stuff or borrowing 200 GB of Mp3 songs from a neighbor. I’m not proud of torrenting, but it is what these women you sell to want. They want something for free, that the don’t have the ball to buy because they don’t know if they can commit to it and not want something better (like a purse, or a paint job on a room in the house) three months later. Women in business are trying to emulate men and they know lack of commitment is their power over the salesman.

    It is all society changing for the worse. Women want free shit.

    1. “Disappearing” in sales is nothing unlike a woman flaking on you. She does it because she can. Guess what, you have to work harder. No surprise there.

    2. “Prospecting”: You would thing the old LAW 13 would apply ” When asking for help, appeal to people’s self-interest, never to their mercy or gratitude.” The problem might be that women these days have everyone jamming their self interest down a womans throat these days that every woman assumes she will always be looked after. Kinda defeats dread and kinda drowns out you appeal to their self interest with the cacophony of others.

    3. Big deals are hard to do with women. Not shit. They have too many options.

    4. Women fake shit. Oh really. Is that why the maxim watch what the do, not what they say developed.

    I’m just stating the obvious. I don’t have any suggestions. I don’t know sales. I’m a technician. I would hope to fix things not sell people on a notion (not my skill set). From your skill-set, Glenn, you can first get through the Kubler-Ross stages of the death of the old sales method with a new generation of flaky women, move your way through to acceptance and adapt to new ways of selling. What gets you there is 90% your sales experience and the other half is your red pill awareness with game skills plus your non-work pursuits (weightlifting, reading, screwing youthful women, being on the lake, botany, landscaping, hanging out with a group of masculine men good at being men-whether in virtual time or in real time, etc.) My college education made me better because of a solid 1/2 Pre-med, but also the other half–philosophy, theology, art, pottery, etc made me better 20 years later.

    I was reading a reddit thread the other day in which Mark Manson was answering questions. Someone asked him about influential books he read. One of them was The Denial of Death by Ernest Becker. Another on we read in Humanities Seminar at Notre Dame freshman year. That one will blow your mind. I still haven’t gotten through my second read of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. It is a damn hard read introduced in that same freshman class, but it is also mind-blowing and life changing if it resonates.

  69. @Tilikum

    “4. Learn the body language and subtext of flirt like it’s a second, fluid language. Learn to see what she is NOT doing and feed that.”

    You being formless here, and a man of few words, can you expand on that second sentence with some examples?

    What are examples of what she is not doing? What do you feed that lack of what she’s not doing in a sales world?

  70. Lol, sijfrellc, it’s always kinda fun to see how your writing style changes up after a dram or two. I don’t ever call attention to it because you have good shit to say buzzed and sober both, and because I sometimes drink’n’pound keyboard myself, but it is kinda endearing.

    @ Glenn

    Good to hear you got a lot out of Jack Donovan! It strikes me that it’s more a masculine tribe you lack than female attention, which is why I emphasized that. In all fairness, tho, sijfrellc had at least as much to do with recommending it, haha.

  71. “You being formless here, and a man of few words, can you expand on that second sentence with some examples?”

    Let me second the sentiment, Tillikum, that you tend to use so few words that it’s hard to learn from you. I admire your commentary here, but don’t always know how I might apply it.

    I like to think I’m a pretty cool guy overall, but like a lot of men here I can be a bit remedial regarding unrepentant, unbound masculinity lol.

  72. A few years ago when I came across Roissy veering into Masculine-Feminine Polarity territory ala Deida I called him out on it in the comments. He used Deida’s examples of the storm and the mountain and other of his yada yada. Deida’s not entirely wrong and the women certainly do lap him and his expressive movements up during his “intensives”. But damn if he ain’t physically unattractive, corny and “really in touch with his feminine side”. I guess those types of wealthy new age women love that stuff.

  73. “The combo punch of Tomassi and Donovan will rock your world. And I don’t think that Donovan without Tomassi would be nearly as powerful.”

    Both connect dots. It is not hard to understand the nature of a man being good at being a man rather that a good blue pill man. But god forgive me and you, no one ever told me this shit since 1979, the day the FI took over. So, Donovan tells the man what his true nature is and how the FI strips all of his masculine traits from him in order to make women safe and neutering a man in the process.

    Men are simple in their needs, wants and what it takes to be good at being a man.

    Women are covert, deceitful and difficult to decode.

    Donovan is basic. What a million bloggers try to say, he distills in one essay book.

    Tomassi is depth and nuance. Much more trying not to give prescriptive rules in how to deal with women, but accomplishing that in his every step of writing. Tomassi gives you, “a lacking man” a prescription while faking like he is not if you connect your own dots.

    I spent 25 years not realizing the importance of hanging out with like-minded men. I fell into a group of like-minded men that are accessible by phone, text, or internet forum (Michigan Sportsman’s Forum) in the last five years. Having similar personalities and passions didn’t hurt the cause, but I pursued them and found them. A real gang of men than in a post-apocalyptic world (and alive word) I would be proud to have as a group that could have my back and I could be all in for them. It’s not a demographic. It is a mindset.

    I spent 25 years not knowing what it took to bring a woman to me. Instead of me lean into her. I one day might elaborate on my “hobbies”. All 4 million of them. I have always been a man on a mission, but not often aligned with what passions or pursuits my wife had or wanted. Kind of like going my own way in a hobby in marriage. None of that shit I wanted was an interest of hers.

    I think I found my salvation in the fall with the college tailgaters with Roissy’s Ninth Commandment. Let the girl roam. Roam.
    “Roam if you want to, roam around the world
    Roam if you want to, without wings without wheels
    Roam if you want to, roam around the world
    Roam if you want to, without anything but the love we feel”

    Give her room to roam. Telling her how to feel or confining her to your feelings just doesn’t fly. Don’t confine her emotions.

    From Roissy:

    “IX. Connect with her emotions

    Set yourself apart from other men and connect with a woman’s emotional landscape. Her mind is an alien world that requires deft navigation to reach your rendezvous. Frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic. Be playful. Employ all your senses. Describe in lush detail scenarios to set her heart afire. Give your feelings freedom to roam. ROAM. Yes, that is a good word. You’re not on a linear path with her. You are ROAMING all over, taking her on an adventure. In this world, there is no need to finish thoughts or draw conclusions. There is only need to EXPERIENCE. You’re grabbing her hand and running with her down an infinite, labyrinthine alleyway with no end, laughing and letting your fingers glide on the cobblestone walls along the way.”

  74. @zdroids
    Your sales analogy falls apart because you fundamentally don’t understand what the customer values. That’s why no one can get it through your head. We are trying to tell you that the girls don’t care about how many slices of bread the toaster you’re selling can cook at a time or how the timer automatically detects when the bread is done, and you’re sitting there going “I don’t get it, if they want to buy a toaster it’s because they want to make as much perfectly browned toast as possible! Guys, listen, they want to make lots of toasted bread as fast as possible so you need to have more slots and this timer feature otherwise you’re an inferior product”.

    You literally don’t understand what women want. That’s why you can’t explain why average guys can get hot girls chasing them long-term (REJECTING rich and better-looking guys for them). Or why you can’t explain how a pimp who isn’t even fucking his girls, has them giving them the money they earn trying to chase his approval. You can’t understand why the customer would choose to buy “shitty” toasters because you don’t understand that what the customer wants isn’t to make as much perfect browned toast as possible. You probably can’t explain why all those “married to the rich tall good-looking dude” women are fucking the poolboy 5 years in or divorcing those dudes.

    That’s why you do your little “hehe I’m not sure he’s quite accurate about his stories tra la la” shit. Because what he’s describing (and what any guy who goes out enough will see in-field over and over) doesn’t fit in your armchair theory of how you think the world should work and it’s easier to just try to discredit him than accept the possiblity that you literally have no idea what you’re talking about and walked into a conversation where you’re talking way out of your paygrade.

    Like, you would show up and see a girl’s broken dirty “only occasionally works and sometimes electrocutes her” toaster and swoop in to replace it with your shiny brand new digital timer toaster and be unable to comprehend why she’s upset because you don’t get that that shitty toaster has some deep feels-based appeal to her that isn’t logically apparent. She’s freaking out that you threw out that toaster that meant everything to her and you’re going “durrr I dun get it?? You can make more toast now!!” She doesn’t even LIKE toast.

    Until you understand what women actually want, to their core, you will never be able to answer those questions because you are working from the wrong paradigm from the start, and guys like myself will continue to stunt across your theories.

    @whoever said intelligence is a handicap…Sun I think? I’m too lazy to scroll
    Intelligence fucking rules. It means once you DO figure out how to get the fuck out of your own way (the biggest problem with it), you are built to adapt and improve faster than stupid people. A smart guy with no game gets fuck all. A dumb guy with game gets good results. A smart guy WITH game gets absurd results…it takes longer to learn and there are a lot more mental “c’mon, work WITH me not AGAINST me, brain!!” internal battles but the end result is worth it. My PUA buddy and I have basically cut out drinking these days because we want our minds sharp as fuck in-field (plus we’re mid-30s now and need to care about our health more). My mind is calculating a billion little nuances a second in an interaction like the dude from Limitless. But that’s because I’ve gone out and spend enough time in-field socializing and cold-approaching that I’ve learned to focus all that over-thinking into a productive channel in an interaction. Anyone can do it, but you can’t do it from your computer chair. You gotta’ go out and pound the pavement and give your brain “proof not promises”. When you get there, time slows down in interactions, feels just like in that Limitless flick. Do you always get the girls? No, but when you don’t you can pinpoint EXACTLY why and work on fixing it if it’s a consistent sticking point, because you’re intelligent and self-aware enough to spot the fuckup and run it through your computer brain of PUA knowledge.

    If you have one of those “can’t stop thinking” brains, read Mystery Method and watch videos from Tyler, Todd and Julien from RSD but really Mystery Method is the golden fuckin bible of game. Those guys’ teaching style is technical-based and it gives your brain shit to calculate and obsess over since it’s going to cacluate and obsess over SOMETHING. That old-school shit was great for over-thinkers. Commercialized PUA started dumbing things down because it’s easier to teach and most guys are retarded or don’t have the attention span to read and watch Mystery Method in-depth, but for a guy who can’t turn his brain off that style of “just be the party, just go in and feel like a boss” is torture ’cause his brain goes “I don’t get it, HOW do I be the party? What are the exact steps to be the party and what IS a “party” exactly in this context? Is a party the same at a bar as an office environment? How do I feel like a boss? What rational justification do I have for feeling like a boss? If I objectively compare my attributes to the guy beside me logically he should feel like more of a boss than me.” lol Like I can’t relate to certain PUA teachers who focus on less tech-heavy ways of teaching this stuff, I need the computer-robot-brain stuff because my brain is whirring (that’s why I can spit out long-ass comments like this, I type as fast as I think and it all just spits out…these don’t take me long to write at all I just take breaks and brain-dump my comments out (that’s also why my writing is sloppy and jumps around in thoughts lol).

    Like Forge the Sky just wrote:
    “Let me second the sentiment, Tillikum, that you tend to use so few words that it’s hard to learn from you. I admire your commentary here, but don’t always know how I might apply it.”

    Some guys (especially Naturals) don’t articulate what they’re thinking/doing in a way that’s easy for over-thinkers to grasp (whereas a more feels-based dude would be like “Right on, bro, Tilikum spits the truth!”) so this situation happens where it’s like “man it sounds like there’s some kind of wisdom in that but I have no idea how to apply it”.

    Gotta find the teacher/writing that gels with your thought processes or you’ll spin your wheels. Read Mystery Method AND watch all the MM vids on YouTube of Mystery’s seminars. That shit is built for over-thinkers ’cause Mystery is one himself.

    “4. Learn the body language and subtext of flirt like it’s a second, fluid language. Learn to see what she is NOT doing and feed that.”
    “What are examples of what she is not doing? What do you feed that lack of what she’s not doing in a sales world?”

    Women communicate via subcommunication, not the overt surface level shit, when it comes to flirting/attraction. Guys have problems with this because we communicate on a surface level. If I say I’m happy it probably means I’m happy. If a girl says she’s happy it can mean a million fucking things under the surface. This is a huge hurdle, especially for intellectual/technical guys who’s hobbies/careers/friendships/etc. are usually based around surface level straight-forward communication.

    Some examples off the top of my head:

    1) If I ask a girl “do you have a boyfriend?” and she says “yes”, that doesn’t really mean anything. HOW did she say “yes”, what was her tone of voice like? Did she sound enthused about it or disappointed about it? Did I have to pry it out of her or did she offer it up immediately when we first started talking? How “yes” IS that “yes” REALLY? If I push a little further does she ever bring it up again or does she forget about it? If she doesn’t walk away and keeps talking to me and keeps giving me iois and doesn’t mention her boyfriend again then she was just doing an obligatory “this isn’t my fault if we have sex, I TOLD HIM I had a boyfriend just like a good girlfriend should so I have no responsibility for this happening” and will probably fuck me. All the stuff she’s doing beneath the surface and AROUND that “yes” tell me the information I need to know.

    2) When a girl says “I hate you!!” or “You’re such a jerk!!” and punches you in the arm, but DOESN’T LEAVE, she likes you. She may hate what you did in that moment but it gave her an emotional tingle of some sort and she’s drawn to that. That’s why she doesn’t leave. If you were a smelly homeless person trying to rape her, she would walk away. But if she arm-punches you and then doesn’t leave and asks you a question or tries to shit-test you more, she’s telling you she likes you by NOT walking away. She just wouldn’t engage you if you weren’t on some level emotionally engaging her, the same way you might ignore a homeless person you know is just going to waste your time.

    3) When you get solid eye-contact with a girl, often the surface level conversation dies off to just half-sentences that trail off and you both feel crazy intense chemistry. You can purposely spark this (YouTube Liam McRae Rapid Escalation and check my archive for the related Gambler and Robbie Williams videos on laser eye-contact). But what’s happening here is that you both switch to subcommunications…My way of describing it is it’s like you two are sitting at a table talking to eachother but having a secret text message conversation on your phones below the table that other people can’t read. So you’re kind of semi-maintaining that surface-level conversation but it sounds stupid to people listening and you’re not really paying attention to what eachother is actually saying, because you’re engaged in that text convo that’s all feels-based through your eye-contact. When you understand this you can seduce girls who don’t even speak your language, because the subcommunication level is universal.

    @sifrellc
    “1. “Disappearing” in sales is nothing unlike a woman flaking on you. She does it because she can. Guess what, you have to work harder. No surprise there.”

    Women flaking can be DRASTICALLY reduced by forcing her to invest more in the interaction. These days women’s entitlement and abundance mentality has been ramped up through the roof because of Facebook Instagram Tinder cell phones etc. So you have to get them to invest even MORE.

    Skip to like 5 min into this vid and watch to the end:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txDfzsPbNRo

    Julien has taken Mystery’s devalidation/qualifying and stacked it and ramped it up hard, which is necessary these days. This shit makes a HUGE difference in flaking. This is the transition from A2 (female to male interest, her showing iois to you) to A3 (qualifying her, then when she passes your qualifications reward her with “male to female interest”) for Mystery Method fans. People want a return on their investment, if she doesn’t have to invest or work to get your number then you aren’t worth anything. If she has to go through hell to get your number she’s not going to flake because she invested a shit-load into getting that opportunity to be with you. It would be like the difference between someone giving you a new car VS you working your entire life to save up penny by penny for that new car…one of them you won’t give a shit if you bump into a fire hydrant, the other you will be paranoid to drive out of your garage incase a speck of dust gets on it.

    Most guys chase girls for their number and don’t qualify them at all or make them invest and earn them in any way, they just hound and plow them for the number and call that a victory…then the girl flakes and they don’t get why their results are so inconsistent. Then they make fun of Mystery because he’s “just that fuzzy hat guy lololz PUA is gay” even tho he explains everything that would help them lol

    @that chick pretending to be a dude
    Deida’s writing is super gay, I tried reading his book but it was too flowery feels-based for me and I had to quit after a couple pages lol PUA gives no fucks what Tony Robbins does with his life or where the information we use comes from. Tony could murder babies, Sue Walsh could write Mystery Method, it doesn’t matter, all that matters is what works. WOMEN look at “well who’s PROVIDING the information??”, that’s why their style of arguing is always to try to discredit the speaker (hi, Feminism) and why they want the Manosphere to go public with their identities…men take in information from any source and go TEST AND APPLY IT and see what really holds up under pressure-testing (hi, Red Pill community in general). It doesn’t matter if PUA is being taught by a 300lbs neckbeard virgin or Hugh Hefner himself the concepts hold up in-field when pressure-tested. It’s not theory, it’s reverse-engineered human behavior. If we collected enough data from hundreds of thousands of dudes’ combined reference experiences and comparing notes and found that girls liked guys with black hair more than blonde hair we would be the FIRST ones to tell guys to go dye their hair black.

  75. @ Forge

    “Lol, sijfrellc, it’s always kinda fun to see how your writing style changes up after a dram or two. I don’t ever call attention to it because you have good shit to say buzzed and sober both, and because I sometimes drink’n’pound keyboard myself, but it is kinda endearing”

    You have insight. It’s true what you say. I have control. But I don’t hesitate to Roam.

    Your insight is accurate that I have imbibed a bit too much in the last six months and posted comments here when drinking that may or may not have made sense.

    But I am not without restraint or a sober red pill, game individual. I deal with my vices, diminish them, but am always striving to be intellectually better.

    I’m a skilled intellectual. Earlier Sun talked about intellectuallism getting in the way. It is my forte. Being an INTJ it can suck in trying to get laid but in the end the idealism doesn’ t allow you to settle for low grade women. High grade women always passing the boner test are the way to go.

    I think there was an excellent thread on RooshV forum on MBTI and most players had a certain type that can definitely be better for Game. We don’t get a choice to change when older and deal with our types (if polar).

    With MBTI, please maximize your strengths and minimize your weaknesses

    Despite the “possible” demerits of the Meyer’s Briggs MBTI survey due to non polarity, It is a great tool to learn about you and your woman and how to play to your strengths and minimize your weaknesses. Also a way that I realized that Roissy’s ninth commandment was my commandment due to my wife’s personality. ENFP to my INTJ.

  76. From Roissy:

    “IX. Connect with her emotions

    Set yourself apart from other men and connect with a woman’s emotional landscape. Her mind is an alien world that requires deft navigation to reach your rendezvous. Frolic in the surf of emotions rather than the arid desert of logic. Be playful. Employ all your senses. Describe in lush detail scenarios to set her heart afire. Give your feelings freedom to roam. ROAM. Yes, that is a good word. You’re not on a linear path with her. You are ROAMING all over, taking her on an adventure. In this world, there is no need to finish thoughts or draw conclusions. There is only need to EXPERIENCE. You’re grabbing her hand and running with her down an infinite, labyrinthine alleyway with no end, laughing and letting your fingers glide on the cobblestone walls along the way.”

    Straight outta Way of the Superior Man. He needs to start giving props or face a plagiarism charge.

  77. Another great read Rollo, as always thanks for this space and all you do to help bring men into the light.
    Much of my cultural frame of reference is from American flyover country, so I can really identify with the earlier comments re the husband as draft horse, a very approachable idea for those of us who are already ‘hitched.’
    By itself, this realization probably wouldn’t have driven me to seek the answers I’ve found here in the sphere- countless men have been OK with a life of husbandly toil.
    To continue the analogy: the angst that brought me here was noticing that- while munching the stored grains from last years harvest after a long grueling day in the sun, a wild stallion comes down from the hills, jumps the fence into the field of new succulent Timothy.
    But, instead of shooting him in the head or shooing him away, I’m surprised to see the rancher and a few hands gather along the fence line, marveling and scheming whether they can ever saddle him.
    So, despite my strengths- which can pull a wagon, or overcome the tight grip of dry clay against the plow blade, and that I can do it all day, everyday… The horses that eat the green grass do so just by giving the fucking illusion they might be able to carry a rider up steep hillsides and through drainages at a gallop.

    Despite Athols work, and other marriage oriented RP thinkers, I still have a lot of trouble believing I’ll be able to become that other horse, at least while I’m with this outfit. And it really hurts to realize that.
    Young men take note- these guys are NOT FUCKING KIDDING when they talk about the necessity of starting with and keeping a solid frame.

  78. ” If we collected enough data from hundreds of thousands of dudes’ combined reference experiences and comparing notes and found that girls liked guys with black hair more than blonde hair”

    Some evo studies say just that.

    Anyway my issues with Deida began 20 years ago when my parents did an “intensive” with him. He’s not a traditionalist. Most of the people who take his seminars are divorced and will divorce again. Many are into polyamory, which I am too but I don’t have kids and they do. He speaks nothing of life long commitment. Nothing about how mom’s “playing the extremes” is going to affect her children.

    Darwin said those who will survive are not the strongest nor the most intelligent but the most adaptable. I’m adapting but I don’t think the rest of the world should. Particularly not when kids are involved.

  79. @ YaReally
    Your sales analogy falls apart because you fundamentally don’t understand what the customer values.

    I know exactly what women want. Women want a man of abundance. They want the real thing, not a phony imitation. By using game a well practiced PUA can trick a girl’s subconscious into believing he’s the man even when he’s not. It’s the reason that guys play the “amazing future” card.

    “I’m going to start a company”
    “I’m going to apply to Med School”
    “I’m going to make a million bucks by the time I’m 30”

    And it’s just a bullshit delaying tactic because 95/100 nothing is ever going to happen but talk.

    Are some girls dumb enough to fall for that? Yep. Dumb is the operative word. And eventually they get pissed.

  80. @YaReally

    You gotta’ go out and pound the pavement and give your brain “proof not promises”.

    Haha, point taken man.

    Lately I have been incredibly busy getting ready for my move middle of next month (selling shit, finding an apartment, dealing with all the details, etc), working out, and trying to keep a hard pace at work by experimenting in my home lab. As soon as I move and that big time suck is out of my way, I’ll be hard at the proof.

    That being said, my therapist recently gave the advice that even while I’m busy, try to maintain dominance in every interaction I have in a day and try to initiate more interactions than necessary to get more practice. Note the successes and the failures, and try to note why. Flirting with chicks throughout the day isn’t hard; the brain moves at its normal lightning speed and they’re putty in my hands (can think of two today that went brilliantly). It’s when I’m dealing with a genuinely attractive chick and actually trying that things freeze up and fall apart.

    Less giving a fuck, more “just doing” is probably the prescription for that I’d wager. Get out of the fucking way, brain. Let me think.

  81. MYG, YGBSM. STFU.I want to puke what you referenced. Please stop your childish trolling of a site you have no conviction in whose message is important to others. You cannot fathom that Deida is a fag and Donovan is not. It is on you to distinguish the difference and explain the simple difference. OR stop commenting on a red pill blog with game frame.

    What is your goal in commenting? Which you are not accomplishing? When have you had one of of your assertions agreed with? Why bother appearing like a douchebag to no end. Why? I have rarely seen a person like you in Real Life, nor do I hope to, but WTF? WHAT IS YOU END GAME?

    Despite my rhetoric, We are indifferent to you. You don’t matter. You have said nothing of substance. You are insignificant.

  82. @ YaReally
    BTW I’m not saying you don’t need game. You do. But some guys write from the point of view that all they need is game and building a better product is for suckers. Good luck with that plan in any area of life.

  83. @zdroidz
    “Women want a man of abundance.”

    You’re looking at the surface level again, just like I tried to get through to you before.

    They want a man who gives them an emotional rollercoaster of ups and downs. A man with abundance GIVES them that emotional rollercoaster because he’s naturally running dread game by having options besides her, so she gets to worry that he’ll leave her and be happy when he doesn’t. It’s the same reason chicks love Twilight and 50 Shades of Grey and Soap Operas and gossip mags and Jezebel, they love the emotional ups and downs of it. It’s hard-wired shit.

    A man faking abundance with women gives them that same emotional rollercoaster, that’s why they can’t tell the difference between the two guys. It’s not the abundance that they care about, it’s the result OF that abundance, which is the emotional rollercoaster they get to ride on. But it doesn’t fit your armchair logic theory so you classify those girls as dumb. So far we have guys like me and kfg are all making up stories, everyone who gets hot girls is paying them and all girls who still get with guys who don’t fit your idea are all dumb. Anything else you want to sweep under the rug to avoid confronting the idea that your theory doesn’t hold up against ABUNDANT real-world examples?

    That’s why they’ll cheat on a guy who has tons of money, is super-handsome, tall, etc. but falls into the beta niceguy frame, because he stops giving her emotional feels. He becomes a dialtone to her and she starts seeking that emotional up and down elsewhere. Next thing you know she’s fucking her boss at work (ooo, danger! scandal!! he has power! she could get fired! what if someone finds out! omg!!).

    It’s not what he has that’s attractive to her, it’s what having it results in that attracts her.

    It’s not the toaster’s quality that’s attractive, it’s not the toast it can provide her, it’s the FEELINGS she feels when she’s cooking that matter.

    Forest for the trees, dude.

  84. LOL @ Julien’s video. “You are awesome, you are funny, you amuse me and you’re a great kisser!!!”

    That wasn’t scripted at all. Totally organic.

    He looks and acts like a flighty teenager. Flaling arms. No center of gravity. Completely unmasculine. Not thorough.

    “Pimp, my ass”.

    Ross Jeffries is at least a grown ass masculine man. Forget these little boys and check out his stuff. Or Nasheed.

  85. @zdroidz
    “But some guys write from the point of view that all they need is game and building a better product is for suckers.”

    Who? Quote them. Who in the PUA community, Manosphere, or TRP community is telling guys not to build a better product WHILE learning game? Point em out, let’s see it. Since it’s so abundant that you’ve wasted everyone’s time for 4 pages of nonsense it should be easy to find a bunch of quotes.

    Of the top of my head I can link you multiple videos of guys in each of those communities stressing that men should work on their value WHILE they learn game.

    You’re full of shit and probably don’t get called out on it in real life, but this isn’t a hugbox. You spout nonsense that goes against the experience of men who go out and do this shit regularly and you better be prepared to back it up and fill in all the loopholes.

  86. @Sun Wukong
    You earn $100,000 and you have a 150 IQ.

    If I was you I’d approach every girl with the idea that I was better. Because from an objective standpoint you ARE better.

  87. @zdroidz
    See what you don’t get is that what you do HURTS men. Your ignorance you blather on about fucks up guys’ lives because they come check these communities out looking for answers but don’t know who to believe yet and you sound really super adamant in what you’re saying and it really jives with their current fucked up socially conditioned world view that hasn’t gotten them fuck all in life, so they latch onto your bullshit because it’s the nice comfortable safe easy explanation. Then they can go back to their shitty lives and never look deeper into this stuff and never go out and work on it. They just put in a few more hours at the gym or a few more hours at the office and you give no fucks because you don’t REALLY care about helping them. All you care about is mentally masturbating for eProps.

  88. @ YaReally

    Hey dummy, Reading Is Fundamental. If you want more comments go back and find them yourself. They’re scattered through the comment section. The “I’m a fat loser” but I’m regularly pursued by hot models myth is tiring. And by the way let me apologize to KFG for this. Previous to this I was off him.

    KFG

    The one in the middle is a bit of a cutie, but not as attractive as my ex-wife, who an ex-boss of mine once described as “looking like she just stepped out of the pages of Penthouse.” For whatever it may be worth, she also had a degree with honors from one of the top rated, exclusive private colleges in New England and a family with a name.

    She spent two years following me around. I acquiesced to marry her when she baited me by buying her own wedding dress. I approved, of the dress; a simple, off white cotton, neo-Victorian sun dress. I did not propose, I simply accepted the bait. She bought her own zircon engagement ring.

    What I brought to the table was: average height, well below average musculature, a bike (push, not motor), a decent quality acoustic guitar and the odd $50 gig.

  89. @MYG
    “LOL @ Julien’s video. “You are awesome, you are funny, you amuse me and you’re a great kisser!!!”

    That wasn’t scripted at all. Totally organic”

    Skip to a minute earlier where he’s creating investment by pretending to walk away and tells her to tell him why she likes him then rewards her for doing so. This is basic human psychology. All you’re doing is proving the people who are suspicious about you right.

    “He looks and acts like a flighty teenager. Flaling arms. No center of gravity. Completely unmasculine. Not thorough.”

    More credentials:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMecikWL1qQ
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlWrFgIR6CU

    Here, I’ll even give you ammo. Here’s their flamingly gayest instructor, this guy makes a Disney princess look like a lumberjack:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kXYABu7KFls

    Oh shit, how are these guys doing this?? IT’S ALL SCRIPTED!! THEY PAID THEM!!

    YouTube Simple Pickup, Cupid Shmupid. Oh god, they’re all paying these girls, these guys couldn’t get laid it’s not possible!! They aren’t 6’4″ masculine rich jocks!!

    “Ross Jeffries is at least a grown ass masculine man.”

    lol where’s that Seinfeld gif again…

  90. @ YaReally
    You have a hard time with reading comprehension. I’m pro game.

    Go back and reread the thread where I pointed out that Benjy Bronk from the Stern show is nuclear Alpha and scores amazing chicks because of his A game.

    Yeah, this guy.
    http://imgur.com/deV6wGp

  91. @zdroidz
    “The “I’m a fat loser” but I’m regularly pursued by hot models myth is tiring.”

    Well shit, if you didn’t believe him then you definitely won’t believe my stories lol

    But that’s alright, it’s a lot easier to keep that bubble on. Just take it over to Hooking Up Smart or Jezebel where you’ll find plenty of people to agree with you and confirm your armchair theory, we discuss real world experience here.

    And do your sons a favor: buy them Rollo’s books so they don’t have to learn from you. I’ve rolled with guys who are as good-looking and successful as you think breeds results and it ain’t a happy ending when they realize that guys like you were bullshitting them and they have to play catch-up later in life to learn how to get the girls they want.

Speak your mind

%d bloggers like this: