Strength of Interest

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I had a couple of questions from the SoSuave Forum‘s (yes, I’m still a mod there) Judge Nismo I thought I’d take a crack at:

G’ morning Rollo. I got a couple questions for you that I don’t think you touched on in your book…or I may have overlooked.

1. What is your opinion on the Celebrity Maxim?

That is, I know you see it a lot in your Rational Male comments and on this board (i.e. Would she flake out on Brad Pitt? Would she make George Clooney wait for sex? She wouldn’t confuse Channing Tatum, etc.) I’ve even used it a lot on here, usually saying you wouldn’t fall asleep if you had a date with Katy Perry, and you wouldn’t pull a last minute flake text with Kate Upton, and you wouldn’t have to babysit if you had Shakira ready to bang!

If there’s three things I’ve learned from writing in the Manosphere for the past 12 years it’s this; no matter how apt, never use an allegory to illustrate a point, never try to relate a fictional story, movie or character to a real world dynamic and never hold up famous celebrities as common reference examples of broader, mundane dynamics.

The temptation to do so stems from a want for a common point of reference. However, appealing to a highly recognizable exemplar of a dynamic only makes picking apart the known particulars about that individual a priority – not on really grasping the dynamic itself.

I see this in the ‘sphere occasionally, and I’d be lying if I said I’d never committed these sins myself. For the most part, and certainly as far as my own readership goes, I think many of the best writers and the commentariat of the ‘sphere are very intelligent men. That’s not to account for the occasional troll, but I’ve found that even an OCD troll still needs to be clever in the ‘sphere.

That said, it’s just this preponderance of intelligence that makes men take illustrative examples as face value facts. Using celebrities as examples of commonality in purpose just smacks of the Apex Fallacy.

“….the Apex fallacy is the idea that we assign the characteristics of the highest visibility members of a group to all members of that group.”

If you’re at all familiar with the controversy surrounding the Apex Fallacy, feminists and manginas alike decided to commandeer wikipedia to paste this as a Men’s Rights misappropriation of the definition, but in actuality the true definition cuts both ways. So while women misappropriate the highest visibility men to associate a totality of the “patriarchy”, men, on the other hand, misappropriate the highest echelon men with examples of common inference of a dynamic.

In English, those celebs aren’t you or me or any layperson you deal with daily. I get the inference of course, and the message is usually one about incentives being strong enough to prompt behaviors. However, what Nismo is getting at is really less about the validity of those illustrations and more about genuine desire:

I ask since it’s quite a big trope in the manosphere…

2. What is your take on the one strike rule?

You do have a 3 strikes article on Rational Male, and I did read it. On this board, it’s quite common to see situations with chicks go like this:

– She flaked on me, she is deleted.
– She stopped responding to my texts and calls, automatic out.
– She wants to bring some friends along, sorry this is one on one.

I could go on and on, most of these situations often get read by red pill men as low interest, thus move on or become a beta orbiter. Yes, I do online dating and work 2 jobs, but I do have a one strike policy.

Sure, sometimes life will truly get in the way, but most men who are red pill will likely move on if there’s low interest. We all know not to waste time with uninterested chicks because they won’t put out. Heck, the sick excuse is often times a blow off, and lately, death in the family has been disguised as blowing someone off.

Zero Tolerance

The problem most men have with a Zero Tolerance policy is that you’re not George Clooney and you’re not Brad Pitt, but moreover, most men still cling to Blue Pill idealisms and the conditioned hope that women will see the “real” men they think women have a magical sensitivity to detect. Thus, they play by the script and hold out for the real desire they believe women should have a capacity for with them.

This is why Blue Pill men get angry at the 3-Strikes rule; that scarcity mentality colors their interaction with women to the point that anything counter to playing the patient, devoted, “prove-my-quality” white knightery role invalidates everything they’ve sacrificed and waited so patiently for up to that point.

They’re afraid of throwing the baby out with the bath water, and damn it, if you suggest doing anything other than what makes their patience worthwhile you’re a misogynistic prick.

If these men could pause with any insight they’d understand that any threshold – one strike, three strikes – suggested by myself or the manosphere isn’t about punishing a woman’s indecisiveness, but rather a pragmatic vetting meant to be efficient for men. That tolerance policy is about conservation of resources and time, not so much retribution (though I’me sure some men entertain that).

  • She flakes on you with no counter offer or marginal reframe? –
    Message: Insufficient interest
  • Stops responding to communications (and possibly resumes after a period)? – The Medium is the Message
  • Wants to bring friends along to a date? –
    Message: you are a rich resource to be exploited, or her interest is so low that she foresees a need to bring friends along to make her date with you entertaining.

The Prince with Interest

What Nismo is comparing here is really an evaluation of interest a woman has in you. I’ve gone into this in the past:

Women with high interest level (IL) wont confuse you. When a woman wants to fuck you she’ll find a way to fuck you. If she’s fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It’s when you patiently while away your time wondering what the magic formula is that’ll bring her around, that’s when you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attentions.

From an evolutionary perspective Hypergamy can’t afford to wait once a woman’s filtering mechanism is satisfied that a man passes for an Alpha. Women will break rules for Alpha men and create more rules for Beta men to have access to her. Keep in mind that first part; women will make access easy for a man she perceives as an SMV superior. Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit.

So to use the apex example, no, a woman can’t afford to confuse Channing Tatum. Mix in the behavioral influences a woman’s ovulatory chemistry predisposes her to with that SMV+ benefit perception and you’ve got dilated pupils, seductive ornamentation, lower vocal intonations and an elevated heart rate – Estrus.

As you might guess, this poses a problem for most guys because, lets face it, most of us aren’t examples of this apex. Even when we make dramatic leaps in self-improvement and physical transformation it’s hard to shake our former self-impressions and our previous degrees of self-confidence.

Back in the early days of SoSuave there was a concept we’d use that I think had a lot of merit – the concept of the Prince. For many men just coming into a Red Pill awareness meant re-imagining oneself in a new, more intrinsically valued light.

For instance, after you understand the basic psychology of why a technique like Cocky & Funny or Amused Mastery works with women, personally applying those dynamics requires a man to view himself in a more valuable context.

As I said, Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit, so it follows that a man should at least reconsider himself as that “better-than her SMV” prospect. Irrespective of that being a reality or not, the idea is a sound one. In fact it’s a law of power:

Law 25 – Re-Create Yourself

Do not accept the roles that society foists on you.  Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience.  Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define if for you. Incorporate dramatic devices into your public gestures and actions – your power will be enhanced and your character will seem larger than life.

And also:

Law 34 – Be Royal in your Own Fashion:  Act like a King to be treated like one

The way you carry yourself will often determine how you are treated; In the long run, appearing vulgar or common will make people disrespect you.  For a king respects himself and inspires the same sentiment in others.  By acting regally and confident of your powers, you make yourself seem destined to wear a crown.

In Amused Mastery, it helps to actually have some context of mastery to source as amusement.

Needless to say, asking a former Blue Pill Beta to simultaneously digest a new Red Pill awareness and revalue his self-worth is a pretty tall order. As I mention in Rejection & Revenge as a man, your existence will be defined by how you deal with rejection, so for a majority of men who’ve been hammered flat for the better part of a lifetime by women’s rejection telling him to adopt the mindset of a Prince is alien to him.

Furthermore, much of his feminine-conditioned self-perception has always taught him to be self-conscious and respectful of women’s default authority. It’s part of men’s previous Beta Game to want to identify with the feminine in order to prove how alike a man is with a woman. This conditioning is really a plan to force compliance to women’s sexual strategy from men, but it’s sold on the belief that being more feminine-like, feminine-sensitive, will set a Beta man apart from other brutish men who aren’t.

When you consider his previous degree of ego-investment in his conditioning, you can get a real appreciation of the unlearning a Red Pill man must do. It’s very difficult for most guys to consider themselves a Prince when they’ve been taught reverent deference to women all their lives.

Qualities of The Prince(ss)

A Prince’s time is valuable. His efforts and attention are gifts he bestows on the woman he’s interested in, and as such that woman’s esteem should be validated by it. She is envied by other women because of the Prince’s interest in her; it confirms there is something about her that sets her apart from other women. Her role becomes one of both humbling gratitude and excited, almost childlike, anticipations of him.

If that comes off like a pipe dream or a fake-it-till-you-make-it motivational screed, it’s because most men are so inured by a lifetime conditioning designed to hold them in the role of expectant, reverent, and deferring lover if they can perform to a woman’s standards. So ingrained is that subservience that a Princess’ acceptance of a man is exalted to an appreciation of spiritual, metaphysical, significance. God ordained her acceptance of him, the fates conspired or he “just got lucky”.

Beta men, in their Blue Pill expectations of women being rational agents, are often dumbfounded by the woman who compulsively returns over and over again to the Alpha ‘asshole’ who doesn’t respect, appreciate and love her like she deserves – like he would if she’d just come to her senses. We call that guy the emotional tampon, but what he doesn’t get is that the woman he’s orbiting is locked in a cycle that only a man with an SMV above her own can induce.

Even if that valuation is just perceptual, a woman’s Hypergamous optimization efforts will predispose her to wanting to lock that man down. This is the danger of relying on apex examples of a dynamic – women must still operate within their respective frames and within their capacity to accurately evaluate the SMV of the men she can realistically attract.

That semi-abusive Jerk boyfriend she loves so much? He’s not Channing Tatum or Brad Pitt, but contextually he’s the guy with the strength of her interest.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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rugby11ljh
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@zdro1dz “Bingo! Society was banking on the fact that once all the male incentives were removed men would keep producing just the same. Sorry, humans are rational.” Makes me think of this “We cannot live only for ourselves. A thousand fibers connect us with our fellow men; and among those fibers, as sympathetic threads, our actions run as causes, and they come back to us as effects.” “A man thinks that by mouthing hard words he understands hard things.” Herman Melville The tale must be rehearsed–and we may amuse ourselves imagining how things must have been, often, acrimonious, or at… Read more »

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“You look at hunting laws in the most liberal states and it’s another wonder.” I let my license lapse before the laws changed, didn’t save an old copy, so when I went to renew I had to take the hunter education course. A good deal of time was spent trying to instil in us the idea that our rifles were not weapons and should never be referred to as such, and that we should take precautions in transporting and handling them, because we could still be prosecuted for perfectly lawful behaviour – like carrying a gun case to the car… Read more »

Forge the Sky
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Lol, that review of ‘Spinster’ is hilarious. I actually think it does a good job of showing how much the current ‘don’t need no man’ model of feminine thought hinges upon the assumption of abundance.

Mad Yale Grad
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“Bingo! Society was banking on the fact that once all the male incentives were removed men would keep producing just the same. Sorry, humans are rational.” – Evolutionray biologists and other scientists say around IIRC at least 40% of men throughout history and prehistory never reproduced. Because we are post-industrial, high tech and all about jobs, jobs, jobs, “the economy” and selling and consuming a bunch of stuff now, we notice. Previously it went unnoticed. What’s happening with kidults and peter pans is nothing new and its not a crisis. Its normal and has always been so. I found this… Read more »

rugby11ljh
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@kfg Steven Rinella https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J2N0Utg7KYE The hunt the game the rules and what you learn vs SJW imposing manmade Ideals vs natures http://www.stevenrinella.com/2011/03/thoughts-on-anti-hunters/ Maybe stalking the woods is as vital to the human condition as playing music or putting words to paper. Maybe hunting has as much of a claim on our civilized selves as anything else. After all, the earliest forms of representational art reflect hunters and prey. While the arts were making us spiritually viable, hunting did the heavy lifting of not only keeping us alive, but inspiring us. To abhor hunting is to hate the place from which… Read more »

kios
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“I’ve heard that $80k is the true average.”

The average Aussie does not make 80,000 a year. If they did, married couples making 160,000 wouldn’t often have problems servicing their mortgages.

The average is the average across the board(the figure includes billionaires and average joes). The median income is closer to reality and that is around 60-63,000 or so.

Anyway, the American dating rules pretty much apply to us. Fat women are increasing in number and so are their demands. Attractive Aussie men settle more and more for ordinary to ugly women. Supplication is widespread.

Sun Wukong
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My usual bar was a big strike out tonight. Nothing worth hitting on. Once I get moved and things calm down, I’m gonna have to look for better hunting grounds. 40 year old women and fatties are just boner killers. Really starts to make me question why I haven’t left the US yet.

rugby11ljh
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@Sun wukong Was setting up a dance just know and approached 4 really great looking women. Not all people look bad with their weight sometimes it helps me to place myself in new environments. Foreign women can be incredibly elegant I was dancing with this women from brazil and she was an HB10 she smiled an I left I got school work in the morning. But it was a great confidence builder. What helps me is dances. Women who dance care far less about feminism and more towards femininity. Well that’s not entirely correct. But overall some are able to… Read more »

Jeremy
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@Sun Wukong Part of that mindset is not thinking twice about anything you do, whether due to stupidity or competence. This is an incredibly hard thing for me. The “curse of intelligence” as my therapist calls it. I can analyze any subject from any number of angles, and so my examines every single subject from every single angle it can conceive of all the time…. Definitely makes the Alpha mindset a hard thing to reach for me As I’ve said before, it’s not your brain that’s keeping you from having an alpha mindset. Analytical thinking is not mutually exclusive of… Read more »

Signor Farfalla
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@Tillikum

You too alpha to exercise?

Are pullups supplicating?

Sun Wukong
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@Jeremy

You say that, but I keep failing to see it. Much like in my practice of wing chun, I find myself fighting to get my brain out of the way.

rugby11ljh
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@Sun Wukong
Use the force
To pose is to support
Their is no try only do.

@all
Wonder what this means for men and hypergamy
http://www.inquisitr.com/2077024/woman-has-sex-with-two-men-twins-have-different-dads-and-judge-ruled-man-has-to-pay-child-support-to-only-one/

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@ kios – ABS and a few other sources indicate it’s ~$74K so add 9% super and it’s $80,845 total so I was pretty close. http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/do-you-consider-yourself-a-struggling-comfortable-or-rich-australian/story-e6frfmcr-1226910189131 Went out Gaming last night with about 10 other guys (mostly aged 30-36). I was the oldest at 43. Three of us were red pill. Guess which guys the attention of the womenz… Also, guess which guys were the worst wingmen and killed a few of my sets…yep the beta guys that can only approach women when they are already in a set with me. Still, I opened multiple sets and Gamed a 27… Read more »

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@zrdroidz “Society spent the last 50 years trying to devalue men and now it’s running out of beta,” Bingo on that. That was a take that I’ve made myself. 50 full years relentless attack on males from all angles and unlike most female endeavors, it has actually started to work. The reaction of course is to immediately double-down on the attack of men once they start to falter. The very worst aspect of it is that females engaged in the most cowardly act of war that I’ve ever seen; Attack the children of your adversary and then just wait. How… Read more »

stuttie
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@ signor f – correction – it’s ALL westernized females.

kfg
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@Signor Farfalla:

The quest for social equality has always operated by beating down to the lowest possible denominator, rather than by lifting up to the highest possible.

With sufficient beatings even the very strongest can be made weak, while the weakest can never be made strong.

Forge the Sky
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Rugby has a point, the dance scene can be totally different from the bar scene. Most bars I’ve gone to are all-but bereft of bangable girls who aren’t with their families or a boyfriend. The dance floors are a different story.

But it is generally a younger man’s game, and looks matter a lot in that context.

From the perspective of a noob, I found it to be a great icebreaker for escalating, though.

Forge the Sky
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@Sun Wukong Re: getting out of your head – I really do think this is mostly a low-level background anxiety (as well as, after decades, simple reinforced habit). Analogically, brainpower is like muscle. If you’ve built up a lot of muscle, you can lift heavier objects when you want to. When you’re not lifting a heavy object, the muscle should be relaxed, no less so because it happens to be larger and stronger than a weaker person’s. So it can contract more strongly, but that doesn’t mean it’s any more ‘on’ when you’re not using it than a smaller muscle.… Read more »

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@Forge they sky
“With a history of trauma, however, that state of hyper-alertness can run very deep.”

Their are parts of me I am still getting over. I got a lot of work to do on myself.
Putting myself in new situations I am not use to is the best way to counteract that.

@Sun Wukong
Hey what I think may help is meditation before you go out. I try that and I am still filled with anxiety. But I does help.

@All
Check this out its interesting
https://www.psychdata.com/s.asp?SID=161649

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@Forge the Sky This all changes if you become stressed out and your muscles tense up as a result. You get chronic low-grade muscular tension that won’t release. You can, by act of will, loosen them up – but as soon as you stop thinking about it, they return to a base state of slight contraction. Strong people are no more or less likely to suffer from this sort of tension than weak people. Exactly. It’s your habits or typical environment that in many ways defines a default behavior. Change your habits, or change your environment and you can alter… Read more »

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Rollo, I’m always glad to see when someone incorporates old seduction community ideas…like being the prince/prize. There were a lot of helpful concepts devised 10+ years ago, in those old ASF days, that seem to have been mostly lost with time. When I see old school guys like YaReally get frustrated on these chats, it reminds me that many newer guys are missing some fundamental ideas that the rest of us worked through a decade or more ago. So, I’d like to hear more of your thoughts on men learning to reappraise their value and “be the prize”, along with… Read more »

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@ Signor Farfalla I see you might be new to all this so I’ll explain. When your game is exquisitely tight and you are subtextually communicating that with how you hold yourself, you NEED to actually “disqualify” yourself to appear approachable and actually attainable, lest a young, nubile thing self eject. Many ways to do this, but the top 2 ways to donate the pussy are: A. be too fit. See, people grow to the size of their fishbowl and you are demonstrating that your fishbowl might be a bit too big for her insecurities, OR that her judgement of… Read more »

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@ Dr. Jeremy Rather, it is about his and the woman’s shared perception of his relative value in the interaction – and whether that entitles him to lead and her follow (alpha), or requires that he submit and hope for her favor (beta). As I see it if a man wants a happy long term relationship (I’m not talking about hookups) he has to bring the most important asset to the table i.e. money and financial stability. At a bare minimum he has to offer the prospect of future financial & career success. Without that she will not respect him… Read more »

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http://imgur.com/gJgQDK8

This guy is bringing everything to the table. If he wasn’t she wouldn’t be interested. And yet boys are taught from day 1 to supplicate. If this was a business deal it would be considered completely out of whack.

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@zdro1dz

Dude. The Red Pill, traditional masculinity, and the restoration of the American male is almost completely centered around NOT being a woman’s beast of burden.

Lion model dude. You think I “work” (anymore)? Women will work their fingers to the bone for an alpha. You need to bring NOTHING but superior DNA and the ability to physically protect the family. If they don’t hunt, I take the kid and find a new younger model that will and you bet your ass she knows it.

How are you not getting literally ANY of this?

Tilikum
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I hereby nominate Rollo Tomassi for canonization and sainthood for unwavering and tedious endeavors of great importance but with dense pupils.

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@ Tilikum
How are you not getting literally ANY of this?
I completely disagree with that in the strongest possible terms, hehe.

I do not believe women will work their fingers to the bone to get Alpha seed.

http://imgur.com/A6b9qY2
You know why those girls are standing with Charlie Sheen? Because he paid them.

zdr01dz
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http://imgur.com/wI55IN1
You know why these beautiful women show up to parties at the Playboy Mansion and mingle with celebrities? You guessed it. They’re paid.

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@zdr01dz But here’s the rub in your scenario… If the partner in an LTR/Marriage grows used to having money, your money, there is no ironclad guarantee that she won’t still give you all manner of hell and make your life miserable. Money is important to live and advance. Money will keep her satisfied for a while until the Hamster gets fueled up. Besides, once you lock her down legally, she’ll just take half of your shit when she exits stage left. Besides the financial aspect, I believe men must vet the living hell out of a woman. I don’t want… Read more »

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@ Blaximus I think Masculine Frame + Positive cash flow = Good chance at relationship maintenance. She’s gotta exist in your world, and your world has to consist of more than cash. She must value you more than money. You are 100% correct about that. Up above I was writing about the vetting process. If you show up at the table with the cash and she asks you to get on your knees to qualify for her you should throw her right out the door. She’s the expendable person in the deal, not you. And as we all know after… Read more »

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@ Rollo
You’re not the first to suggest that
hehe, yep. Sometimes a girl who worked at the Playboy Mansion will end up on the Stern show. They’re all there for the cash and to meet celebs that can help their careers and bank accounts. Not so much to hear Pauly Shore’s jokes.

Blaximus
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@zdr01dz Yes, but show up to the table first and foremost with the correct Frame. Cash is secondary, always. The correct Frame will not lead to any knee bending qualification. Marriage is not such a bad deal if you…* all together now * Hold your Frame. I can’t stress that enough. Maybe I can stress it a few more times… No man truly profits but by the sweat of his brow. If you do the work needed to succeed in marriage, before you actually get married, it may not turn out to be a total cluster-fuck. Sometimes you may be… Read more »

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@Blaximus
Both parties wanting to start a family, IMO, is not a good enough reason to marry.

But it’s the minimum. If a couple doesn’t want to have kids marriage (at least to me) makes no sense. Just date forever.

Blaximus
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@zdr01dz

… Oh, and btw, get your ( dominant ) sex game up. Ha!

Blaximus
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But it’s the minimum. If a couple doesn’t want to have kids marriage (at least to me) makes no sense. Just date forever.

That’s cool too. If that’s what you want to do, I approve the message.

But marriage can have other benefits, if done right, besides offspring.

Cultivating companionship that lasts is desirable. We don’t stay young forever you know.

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@ Blaximus
Oh, and btw, get your ( dominant ) sex game up. Ha!
I’m all “A game” in that regard, hehe.

Cultivating companionship that lasts is desirable. We don’t stay young forever you know.
True, but old people can date forever.

If your buddy called you up on the phone and told you he’d be your BFF if you would sign over half your assets to him you’d laugh. But somehow when a girl asks for half a guys assets to be his friend forever it makes sense.

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^^^
And I should add that if you didn’t have more assets than her you wouldn’t get the offer to be “best friends forever” in the first place.

Blaximus
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@zdr01dz That would have to be one hell of a buddy. It’s not that you give half your assets to a chick for her friendship. You should do all things for yourself, first and foremost. When you’re comfortable and established, if a woman wants to be with you and your with that program, she should step into your world. Careful, there is no true ” our world ” because always remember, the onus is upon you. It never, ever makes sense for a chick to ask for half your assets, regardless of what social convention says. I’m not saying any… Read more »

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@zdr01dz

Seems like you’re talking about women in a particular phase of development/life. Younger women aren’t that asset driven. There’s a word for that… Gold-digger..Hahahaha!!!!

At an offer to be ” best friends forever ” the answer is ” No “. Say it with as little facial expression as possible, and with as deep a voice as can be mustered.

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@ Blaximus
But the thing is they don’t look at it like us.
Men are looking for a companion.
Women are looking for a workhorse.

If you are a good workhorse she’ll be a good companion.

We don’t need marriage to have a great companion for life.
They need marriage to gain legal control over half the output of the workhorse.

Signor Farfalla
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Tillikum is;

2 legit 2 squat

rugby11ljh
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@Tilikum
“I hereby nominate Rollo Tomassi for canonization and sainthood for unwavering and tedious endeavors of great importance but with dense pupils.”
Hope you can be part of
@Sun wukong broadcast seems like you really got your shit in order and have all the main principles down. In regards to the red pill.

Blaximus
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@zdr01dz Haha.. If you’re a good workhorse, all you will be in her eyes is a good workhorse. True, we don’t need marriage to have a great companion for life. Marriage isn’t an option for everyone. No, they don’t think like us. Rollo has a dozen posts about that very subject. But, to quote Dennis Green ” They are who we thought they were ” ( after TRP that is ) and that’s the point. We are rational and logical. They , for the most part , are the opposite. You have to want to cut through all of the… Read more »

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@Blaximus
“It’s not easy, but it can get easier.”
Hell this place is home for me.

@Tilikum
How long have you been working on this stuff and do you have your own blog?

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@Blaximus What my current wife understands is that as long as I’m happy and content, odds are that the cart will be pulled and I will share the beer with her…wait…did that make sense? How did this get to be about beer? hehe. Well you could run an experiment. Stop pulling the cart for a while and see if it impacts your wife’s behavior. BTW I’m not against marriage. I’m happily married with a family. I have been a hard worker since I was a little kid. But how that I’ve spent some time on the man-o-sphere I’m starting to… Read more »

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@zdr01dz “Well you could run an experiment. Stop pulling the cart for a while and see if it impacts your wife’s behavior.” Been there done that. I work now because I enjoy it for the most part. I no longer fly all over the world though. I spent too much time in London and Hong Kong not even getting out long enough to see anything that wasn’t work related. The most I saw in either place was on the drive to and from the airports. Now the younger cats get the dubious honor. ” I’m happily married with a family.… Read more »

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” . . . those girls are standing with Charlie Sheen . . .” Indeed they are. The one on the right isn’t even attractive enough for a quick take. I wouldn’t be photographed with her willingly, never mind pay her for it, and I’m rather older than Charlie. The one in the middle is a bit of a cutie, but not as attractive as my ex-wife, who an ex-boss of mine once described as “looking like she just stepped out of the pages of Penthouse.” For whatever it may be worth, she also had a degree with honors from… Read more »

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@rugby

No blog, no Facebook, no Twatter, no Linkedin.

I’m a bit of a ghost, and I like it that way.

Whats this SunWukong thing?

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@ Rollo One of the first concepts I read on this site was that male love was idealistic and female love was opportunistic. When I first read that I knew it was correct but it was difficult for me to work that into a practical roadmap. I’ve thought about it for a long time and I think it comes down to this. Male love is idealistic. On a practical level that means men want a companion. We want someone to talk to and spend time with. We want a friend and a lover. When we screw up or fail we… Read more »

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@Tilikum I tip my hat to you sir. Way to be human and digital free… Maybe that’s why you have these principles down so damn well. Sun Wukong apparently has been able to get people an this blog to do something such as massive conference call. Where people can actually hear each other speak about red pill thoughts and life. Thanks by the way for bringing up Apex alpha I am learning faster how to change my mindset on dealing with my everyday human interactions. Appreciate it @Sun wukong could you reply with how this thing you set up works?… Read more »

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Apex alpha (thinking about while in the room full of dancers doing zouk and kizomba) goodnight everyone… You have no control over what the other guy does. You only have control over what you do. -A J Kitt The mind is the limit. As long as the mind can envision the fact that you can do something, you can do itas long as you really believe 100 percent. -Arnold Schwarzenegger The principle is competing against yourself. It’s about self-improvement, about being better than you were the day before. -Steve Young You have to expect things of yourself before you can… Read more »

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@ kfg What I brought to the table was: average height, well below average musculature, a bike (push, not motor), a decent quality acoustic guitar and the odd $50 gig. What your hypothesis needs to explain is why, to this woman, who had pick of the litter, I was the prize. If you were super handsome or had amazing game I can understand her hooking up with you. It happens every day. But marriage, I don’t have an obvious explanation. Girls don’t want a permanent anchor. When I married my wife 20 years ago I was a college dropout that… Read more »

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@ zdro1dz Wow. I applaud your blind devotion and investment and part of me is thinking you were probably raised by a single mom, which is a common denominator when men can’t embrace the red pill. All I can say is “may your chains rest lightly” and hope when reality comes for you it is at least quick and thorough. To observe reality in a kind of stark and “rock bottom” way is, in my experience, the only way a man as invested in the Blue Pill as seem to be can really move past his conditioning. Churchill said “sometimes… Read more »

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@ Tilikum
Best of luck, amigo.

Thank you

Glenn
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@All – STOP FEEDING THE TROLL. Also, I’m looking forward to joining the convo next Sunday for the first real show, thanks for re-scheduling, Sun. So much good stuff here but i have to go to sleep and just can’t digest it all. I’ve also been inside of a female frame for the past 4 days and wow – women are just fucking ridiculous. Let them run anything but dinner and it’s class A clusterfuck. Been absorbing Jack Donovan’s work, The Way of Men and can see so clearly how female social circles lack the meritocracy of male social circles.… Read more »

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“If you were super handsome . . .” I could play either Loius XIII or one of the 40 thieves, depending on costume and makeup. Apparently this works for some women, but not most. It certainly isn’t classically handsome, never mind super handsome. The best you could say for it is, “at least it’s masculine.” I’d make a really shitty tranny. ” . . . you convinced a smoking hot woman to be your wife . . .” I did nothing of the kind. My interests lay elsewhere. I had, at one point, rejected a direct proposition from her, I… Read more »

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@ kfg
Let’s get the data points correct and organized.

1) Your future wife looked like a Penthouse Pet
2) She pursued you, not the other way around
3) You weren’t good looking and had little muscle mass
4) You owned a bicycle
5) You had no significant income
6) You had no potential to increase your income
7) Over the course of the marriage you didn’t increase your income to any significant degree

If I’ve got that right have you considered the fact that some of those data points may have played a part in the divorce?

kfg
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” . . .have you considered the fact that some of those data points may have played a part in the divorce?” Another data point: I left her. She was 29 1/2. My rebound fling was an 18 year old who literally stopped traffic when she walked by. Walking through a shopping mall it was like she had a 20 ft. radius Cone of Suspended Animation around her and she wasn’t just drawn that way. I had to next her because, as it turns out, she was trying to monkey branch to me from a guy who a) I liked… Read more »

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@ kfg Girl #1) Looking like she just stepped out of the pages of Penthouse. Girl #2) My rebound fling was an 18 year old who literally stopped traffic when she walked by. Walking through a shopping mall it was like she had a 20 ft. radius Cone of Suspended Animation around her and she wasn’t just drawn that way. Girl(s) #3) all the high school girls who are obviously attracted to me (some of them aren’t very subtle about it) What specific trait do you attribute your mad success with the Betty’s too? You wrote earlier that you don’t… Read more »

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Rather more like this: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_hTyj3OL-9CE/TREaQwW3FiI/AAAAAAAABBY/zZJQNKDF6JQ/s1600/Triumph%2Bclub%2Bracer%2B1c%2Blow.jpg Someone else with about the same musculature as myself: http://i.livescience.com/images/i/000/029/617/i02/cheetah-2-120802.jpeg?1343936279 Yeah, she’s a girl. She’ll beat me in the 100m too. I’ll beat her in the 5k. “What specific trait do you attribute your mad success with the Betty’s too? ” I have the disadvantage of being on the inside looking out. It started in grade school, when even though I was sickly, frail and the smallest one in my class (not the smallest boy, the smallest one) I had the two alpha girls fighting over me, so I also have the disadvantage of not… Read more »

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Borfash
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@kfg

“Heels themselves were invented for cavalry, to keep feet from slipping from stirrups. Women didn’t wear heels at all. Heels were made high because hight is a male signifier of dominance. Women, beginning with the nobility, adopted high heels to shrink the dominance gap accorded to hight.

They’re an early “You go gurrrrl!” thang.”

Is this for real? I swear I’ve always felt…something… about those high heels but I could never explain what it was.

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@Tilikum
“To observe reality in a kind of stark and “rock bottom” way is, in my experience, the only way a man as invested in the Blue Pill as seem to be can really move past his conditioning.

Churchill said “sometimes the only way over something is through it”, but dude, I’m not going to lie….it is going to hurt.”

It’s why Wo am thankful to be here and it really does fucking hurt…
Still very much have habits that are blue pill. But so far I am learning a lot of what to modify.
Thank you for your input.

Sun Wukong
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@kfg they find me and get in my way. Wanted: your problem. @rugby, @tilikum @Sun wukong could you reply with how this thing you set up works? Essentially I wanted a way to create a roundtable where the guys that aren’t necessarily the big voices in the manosphere could get together and discuss what we learn here. The discussions will be recorded, edited down in to a show for distribution as a podcast aimed at newer folks in TRP community to hopefully help them with seeing that they’re not alone in their difficulties and maybe to help them solve their… Read more »

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@Borfash: What’s more, the aristocratic women of the time, and the commoners with the means to adopt the fashions of the upper classes in order to feign a higher social standing than they actually had, wore their dresses at “floor sweeper” length, so the heels couldn’t even be seen. It was an invisible subterfuge. In essence a type of undergarment. The first women to wear heels on open display were of the lowest classes, who did so to advertise their sexual availability (it was their bare ankles that they were displaying, not the heels themselves). That is to say, prostitutes.… Read more »

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@kfg
It started in grade school, when even though I was sickly, frail and the smallest one in my class (not the smallest boy, the smallest one) I had the two alpha girls fighting over me, so I also have the disadvantage of not having learned it the hard way.

So in addition to everything else you’re sickly and small and the girls literally fight over you. Once again very impressive.

Fine sir, I enjoy your amazing “stories” of conquest. If you have anything else to say please do, otherwise you are free to leave at any time.
http://imgur.com/BRe2PtA

Dr. Jeremy
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@ zdro1dz, I understand your focus on money and provisioning as leverage for long-term relationship game. In fact, beyond that, I understand the idea of bringing something of concrete value to the table in a relationship, especially to have leadership and long-term satisfaction. If you come from a position of strength and leadership with that value, rather than one of trying to “please” and “earn” the woman, then it can be effective for relationship management. Nevertheless, KFG does show that there is a loophole in that strategy. That loophole is usually known in the most extreme form as Pimp Game.… Read more »

hoellenhund2
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Funny how men are “kidults” if they don’t man up and marry post-Epiphany phase women. Then it’s a ‘crisis of masculinity’, yet Kate Bollick gets national book deal for Spinster and lucrative lecture engagements for promoting women never get married and be happier for it. The Feminine Imperative can’t get its narrative straight. Its narrative has always been straight. The widespread and unspoken consensus in every society throughout history has been that women are innately fit for marriage. In other words, they do not and should not have to prove they are worthy of marriage. If she has a pair… Read more »

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@Zdroidz – Female attraction is different than male attraction – isn’t this entire blog a testimony to that? Women find men who don’t chase them or supplicate themselves to be a challenge. At first they might find you annoying or even scoff at you, but over time, guys who are inner directed and who demonstrate high value with mastery and have social status granted to them by other men – based on their honor and courage and mastery and strength – are noticed by women. In fact, in today’s society, such men are rarer and rarer so even guys who… Read more »

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@ Dr. Jeremy

I’m not entirely certain if KFGs stories of conquest are entirely based on accurate information. hehe

But I do agree that men with no concrete value or substance do score hot women. It happens every day. But these guys face an insurmountable problem. They have an amazing sales pitch and no product.

The evidence that this plan can’t work over the long run is that in lower income areas there are virtually no attractive women. Sooner or later all the attractive women marry up and out.

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@Sun Wukong: “Wanted: your problem.” Yeah, I know, which is why I don’t talk about it much unless it’s on point somehow. I realize I’m the odd man out around these parts, learning how to be less attractive to women (don’t do meth and go on a murder rampage. Right. Got it). But I’ll give you an example of how it can be a real problem in a way that isn’t directly associated with women: I was working in store sales for a while, to reliably raise a small wad of starter capital, and was having a pleasant chat with… Read more »

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@ Dr. Jeremy I work in sales so this experience might be relevant. At one point in my career I sold an average product. I did a great job selling it and I sold my fair share but overall the experience was painful. Many customers complained about the product and more than a few people were rude to me. I saved a few classic hate emails that I received. I never posted huge numbers no matter how hard I worked. After a year and a half I hated it and got out. I switched to a high quality product. I… Read more »

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@ Glenn

Yeah, we tend to talk less about man-to-man dynamics on this and other manosphere sites. Jack Donovan really helps fill that gap, but more discussion on the topic would be a great thing.

@ Sun Wukong

If we’re talking topics here, I’ve been thinking a lot about how being in an unreflective state – a state of pure experiencing – is such a cornerstone of game and charisma. I wouldn’t mind talking about what that is and how to get there.

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@Forge – Thanks so much for recommending Jack Donovan. We are doing exactly what he describes on this forum – forming our gang. Men crave this. It’s the final piece for me, so really, I can’t thank you enough. I’ve been in an existential crisis for 27 years, uggh. But I slept well for 5 hours last night for the first time in a very long time and I didn’t smoke weed or take Unisom. Living in the hell that our society is for men, fathers, boys and all things masculine without a roadmap has been so anxiety producing. Constantly… Read more »

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@ zdro1dz I don’t think you are entirely off base either. However, I also don’t think that the product is always more important than the pitch. In some instances, you can sell “invisible clothes” to the emperor for large sums of money. Whether that works or not, depends on a few variables. 1) The customer/woman has to have an intangible and emotional need to be filled, rather than a practical one. For example, if I need to get to work and my car does not run, what brand it is makes little difference. However, if I have other means of… Read more »

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@Rollo – I know you get thanks all the time and that I’ve thanked you before, but truly, I’ve arrived at place that I never thought I could achieve in life. Self-actualization. I am a proud, unapologetic man possessing many skills, courage, strengths and mastery that is directed towards the various goals and projects I’m undertaking in my life. I’ve even stopped smoking pot without noticing it (was not a pothead but used it as a way to relieve anxiety and for sleep problems at times). Now? The idea of walking around addled and in a daze seems stupid and… Read more »

Random Angeleno
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Older fella here who likes dancing and is good at it. Have done a decent job over the years at removing beta non-verbal body language and injecting just enough alpha on the dance floor as women of all ages like dancing with me and often don’t mind my hands on their bodies in ways that would have surprised me in my blue pill days. I see how Heartiste’s point about being aggressive plays out here, from summoning a girl to dance with me (I don’t ask), leading her onto the floor, taking the lead and holding the frame (I never… Read more »

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@ Dr. Jeremy However, more and more, social services, laws, and careers are ensuring women’s tangible needs are met – without men. So, whether the male product actually delivers a tangible benefit is increasingly of less concern than the emotional, psychological, and social value that it is perceived to have. That statement hit the bullseye. I believe it is the core problem that M/F relationships face in the modern world. Evolution favored women that were attracted to Self+1 and repulsed by Self-1. This gameplan worked perfect for 250,000 years and the result is the physically large, strong men that we… Read more »

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” . . . you’re sickly . . .. ” That was then, this is now. Although the basis for my health issues is genetic, I have learned to control them entirely by means of diet and exercise and am the only man I know of my age who is on no medications whatsoever. I took a couple Tylenol for a fever about 15 years ago. ” . . . and small . . .” As already stated, I did eventually attain average height. I’m not a dwarf. My growth was stunted, but most men in my family are over… Read more »

kobayashii1681
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@Sun –
“Agree so much with this. I tell a woman I’m a well paid software engineer, she’s instantly gonna toss me in the BB box. I just feed women bullshit these days.

“I’m a puppy phrenologist.”
“I’m a vaginal inspector.”
“I’m an international man of mystery.”
“I’m no one of consequence, you just need to know I fuck like a wild animal.”

Anything but the truth. Bitches don’t need the truth. They need my dick.”

comment image

Truer words bruv, truer words….Made my evening!

rugby11ljh
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@ hoellenhund2 “Femininity has never been thought of something that has to be learned and internalized, something that has to be earned as a badge by passing various tests. It’s simply there.” Yes that brings up a two year mission from age 18 now that’s mandated in the Lds faith… It’s an amazing shit test that isn’t required for females but mandated for males… @Glenn “I realized something really profound for me this weekend. While I don’t play “good man” with the women I’m trying to fuck anymore, I absolutely play that role inside my family. Lol. Fuck them too.… Read more »

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Glenn, “Female attraction is different than male attraction – isn’t this entire blog a testimony to that? Women find men who don’t chase them or supplicate themselves to be a challenge. At first they might find you annoying or even scoff at you, but over time, guys who are inner directed and who demonstrate high value with mastery and have social status granted to them by other men – based on their honor and courage and mastery and strength – are noticed by women. ” – And they say men like to chase. I never did. Oh the irony of… Read more »

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DeNihilist

May 9th, 2015 at 1:55 am

So MYG, Tony reads Heartiste and steals his ideas to make millions. Someone should let Heartiste know.
____________________________

No. Both Tony and Heartiste, and RSD, and, and, and… get a lot of their stuff from David Deida’s Way of the Superior Man and his corny new age masculine-feminine “polarity work” .

Even then I doubt Roissy would recommend a man just stand there while his wife hits him as in this video

Mad Yale Grad
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Robbin’s “relationship philosophy” is basically that husbands have to “be a man” and suck it up buttercup while placating their wives’ infantile behavior.

Mad Yale Grad
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For those of you wondering where Roissy and the entire PUA scene is getting their new age “polarity” jargon its from David Deida, who had a PR manager some years ago who was trying to get him into the PUA seminar circuit. David’s regular clientele of upper middle class crunchy California yuppies vehemently objected to giving out this “exclusive tantric wisdom” to a bunch of dudes trying to get laid in clubs . My own parents who are in their 60s did a workshop with him 20 years ago and returned home acting like cultish brainwashed zombies. http://deida.info/ Loading...

Glenn
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@Rollo – A comment on the FI. I understand what you mean by it – and I completely agree that it has become so overwhelming and omnipresent and ominpotent. In fact, Jack Donovan’s work has deepened greatly my appreciation for how masculinism has been formally denigrated and decimated intellectually, personally, collectively, institutionally and culturally. My only disagreement with you is that it doesn’t get that kind of power without the radical egalitarianism and collectivism of the left (and I can prove that with all my fancy citations etc). The FI was so overwhelmingly obvious to me this weekend. My niece… Read more »

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@Glenn Remember Glenn, According to a woman from Yale, the use of Game is potentially deadly to men with mental problems. So really, you’re just taking your life into your own hands by even reading what Rollo writes. Oh, and Also, Since there are anecdotes inferring that some people turned cultish from letting themselves be influenced by people from whom Roosh may or may not be using terminology, this means that Game is a cult. I’m certain most men here are familiar with the term FUD (Fear Uncertainty Doubt). Rollo should almost be proud that he’s raised the attention of… Read more »

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@zdr01dz I’m gonna bet kfg ain’t full of shit at all. I’ve known enough dudes like that (and found myself going “How the bloody hell…” enough times) to know what he’s talking about is common. I think where your sales analogy falls down is that you were running in to the big difference between sales and marketing. A “higher quality” product in a lot of cases is just a case of being marketed better. Bad marketing makes pitching to the customer harder, good marketing makes it a breeze. I’d consider a man’s inner confidence and overall vibe to be his… Read more »

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Glenn – “In fact, what’s really going on is that they are abandoning female values and are trying to ape masculinity but don’t have the first clue as to what it is to be masculine. They play a caricature of it, and that’s why women lead organizations are a fucking joke.”

^^^Cargo Cult Masculinity^^^

Wear the costumes, claim the status, take the names and titles and wonder why the result don’t automatically manifest. Then blame the men for not being supportive.

Mad Yale Grad
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Roissy’s, RSD’s and the entre PUA world’s masculine-feminine-polarity guru is an effeminate Jewish guy

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@ Sun Wukong I’m gonna bet kfg ain’t full of shit at all. I’ve known enough dudes like that (and found myself going “How the bloody hell…” enough times) to know what he’s talking about is common. KFG describes himself as a chick magnet. Penthouse models, girls with 20′ cones of beauty and the chicks at a local highschool find him irresistible. Hot poon pursues him to such a degree that he can barely get anything done in life. I’m seriously considering going ghost for a couple of years just to get some shit done, because they find me and… Read more »

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“If you think Deida is in anyway remotely an influence of Roissy, you need to go back to licking windows with your special needs friends.”

He started quoting directly from Deida 3-4 years ago.

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Rollo,

I have now read your article linked above three times. I must plead guilty to being dense. Is your referencing that supposed to be informatively descriptive of the situation Glenn described or am I missing something?

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