Strength of Interest

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I had a couple of questions from the SoSuave Forum‘s (yes, I’m still a mod there) Judge Nismo I thought I’d take a crack at:

G’ morning Rollo. I got a couple questions for you that I don’t think you touched on in your book…or I may have overlooked.

1. What is your opinion on the Celebrity Maxim?

That is, I know you see it a lot in your Rational Male comments and on this board (i.e. Would she flake out on Brad Pitt? Would she make George Clooney wait for sex? She wouldn’t confuse Channing Tatum, etc.) I’ve even used it a lot on here, usually saying you wouldn’t fall asleep if you had a date with Katy Perry, and you wouldn’t pull a last minute flake text with Kate Upton, and you wouldn’t have to babysit if you had Shakira ready to bang!

If there’s three things I’ve learned from writing in the Manosphere for the past 12 years it’s this; no matter how apt, never use an allegory to illustrate a point, never try to relate a fictional story, movie or character to a real world dynamic and never hold up famous celebrities as common reference examples of broader, mundane dynamics.

The temptation to do so stems from a want for a common point of reference. However, appealing to a highly recognizable exemplar of a dynamic only makes picking apart the known particulars about that individual a priority – not on really grasping the dynamic itself.

I see this in the ‘sphere occasionally, and I’d be lying if I said I’d never committed these sins myself. For the most part, and certainly as far as my own readership goes, I think many of the best writers and the commentariat of the ‘sphere are very intelligent men. That’s not to account for the occasional troll, but I’ve found that even an OCD troll still needs to be clever in the ‘sphere.

That said, it’s just this preponderance of intelligence that makes men take illustrative examples as face value facts. Using celebrities as examples of commonality in purpose just smacks of the Apex Fallacy.

“….the Apex fallacy is the idea that we assign the characteristics of the highest visibility members of a group to all members of that group.”

If you’re at all familiar with the controversy surrounding the Apex Fallacy, feminists and manginas alike decided to commandeer wikipedia to paste this as a Men’s Rights misappropriation of the definition, but in actuality the true definition cuts both ways. So while women misappropriate the highest visibility men to associate a totality of the “patriarchy”, men, on the other hand, misappropriate the highest echelon men with examples of common inference of a dynamic.

In English, those celebs aren’t you or me or any layperson you deal with daily. I get the inference of course, and the message is usually one about incentives being strong enough to prompt behaviors. However, what Nismo is getting at is really less about the validity of those illustrations and more about genuine desire:

I ask since it’s quite a big trope in the manosphere…

2. What is your take on the one strike rule?

You do have a 3 strikes article on Rational Male, and I did read it. On this board, it’s quite common to see situations with chicks go like this:

– She flaked on me, she is deleted.
– She stopped responding to my texts and calls, automatic out.
– She wants to bring some friends along, sorry this is one on one.

I could go on and on, most of these situations often get read by red pill men as low interest, thus move on or become a beta orbiter. Yes, I do online dating and work 2 jobs, but I do have a one strike policy.

Sure, sometimes life will truly get in the way, but most men who are red pill will likely move on if there’s low interest. We all know not to waste time with uninterested chicks because they won’t put out. Heck, the sick excuse is often times a blow off, and lately, death in the family has been disguised as blowing someone off.

Zero Tolerance

The problem most men have with a Zero Tolerance policy is that you’re not George Clooney and you’re not Brad Pitt, but moreover, most men still cling to Blue Pill idealisms and the conditioned hope that women will see the “real” men they think women have a magical sensitivity to detect. Thus, they play by the script and hold out for the real desire they believe women should have a capacity for with them.

This is why Blue Pill men get angry at the 3-Strikes rule; that scarcity mentality colors their interaction with women to the point that anything counter to playing the patient, devoted, “prove-my-quality” white knightery role invalidates everything they’ve sacrificed and waited so patiently for up to that point.

They’re afraid of throwing the baby out with the bath water, and damn it, if you suggest doing anything other than what makes their patience worthwhile you’re a misogynistic prick.

If these men could pause with any insight they’d understand that any threshold – one strike, three strikes – suggested by myself or the manosphere isn’t about punishing a woman’s indecisiveness, but rather a pragmatic vetting meant to be efficient for men. That tolerance policy is about conservation of resources and time, not so much retribution (though I’me sure some men entertain that).

  • She flakes on you with no counter offer or marginal reframe? –
    Message: Insufficient interest
  • Stops responding to communications (and possibly resumes after a period)? – The Medium is the Message
  • Wants to bring friends along to a date? –
    Message: you are a rich resource to be exploited, or her interest is so low that she foresees a need to bring friends along to make her date with you entertaining.

The Prince with Interest

What Nismo is comparing here is really an evaluation of interest a woman has in you. I’ve gone into this in the past:

Women with high interest level (IL) wont confuse you. When a woman wants to fuck you she’ll find a way to fuck you. If she’s fluctuating between being into you and then not, put her away for a while and spin other plates. If she sorts it out for herself and pursues you, then you are still playing in your frame and you maintain the value of your attention to her. It’s when you patiently while away your time wondering what the magic formula is that’ll bring her around, that’s when you lean over into her frame. You need her more than she needs you and she will dictate the terms of her attentions.

From an evolutionary perspective Hypergamy can’t afford to wait once a woman’s filtering mechanism is satisfied that a man passes for an Alpha. Women will break rules for Alpha men and create more rules for Beta men to have access to her. Keep in mind that first part; women will make access easy for a man she perceives as an SMV superior. Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit.

So to use the apex example, no, a woman can’t afford to confuse Channing Tatum. Mix in the behavioral influences a woman’s ovulatory chemistry predisposes her to with that SMV+ benefit perception and you’ve got dilated pupils, seductive ornamentation, lower vocal intonations and an elevated heart rate – Estrus.

As you might guess, this poses a problem for most guys because, lets face it, most of us aren’t examples of this apex. Even when we make dramatic leaps in self-improvement and physical transformation it’s hard to shake our former self-impressions and our previous degrees of self-confidence.

Back in the early days of SoSuave there was a concept we’d use that I think had a lot of merit – the concept of the Prince. For many men just coming into a Red Pill awareness meant re-imagining oneself in a new, more intrinsically valued light.

For instance, after you understand the basic psychology of why a technique like Cocky & Funny or Amused Mastery works with women, personally applying those dynamics requires a man to view himself in a more valuable context.

As I said, Hypergamy always seeks a better-than deserved SMV benefit, so it follows that a man should at least reconsider himself as that “better-than her SMV” prospect. Irrespective of that being a reality or not, the idea is a sound one. In fact it’s a law of power:

Law 25 – Re-Create Yourself

Do not accept the roles that society foists on you.  Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience.  Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define if for you. Incorporate dramatic devices into your public gestures and actions – your power will be enhanced and your character will seem larger than life.

And also:

Law 34 – Be Royal in your Own Fashion:  Act like a King to be treated like one

The way you carry yourself will often determine how you are treated; In the long run, appearing vulgar or common will make people disrespect you.  For a king respects himself and inspires the same sentiment in others.  By acting regally and confident of your powers, you make yourself seem destined to wear a crown.

In Amused Mastery, it helps to actually have some context of mastery to source as amusement.

Needless to say, asking a former Blue Pill Beta to simultaneously digest a new Red Pill awareness and revalue his self-worth is a pretty tall order. As I mention in Rejection & Revenge as a man, your existence will be defined by how you deal with rejection, so for a majority of men who’ve been hammered flat for the better part of a lifetime by women’s rejection telling him to adopt the mindset of a Prince is alien to him.

Furthermore, much of his feminine-conditioned self-perception has always taught him to be self-conscious and respectful of women’s default authority. It’s part of men’s previous Beta Game to want to identify with the feminine in order to prove how alike a man is with a woman. This conditioning is really a plan to force compliance to women’s sexual strategy from men, but it’s sold on the belief that being more feminine-like, feminine-sensitive, will set a Beta man apart from other brutish men who aren’t.

When you consider his previous degree of ego-investment in his conditioning, you can get a real appreciation of the unlearning a Red Pill man must do. It’s very difficult for most guys to consider themselves a Prince when they’ve been taught reverent deference to women all their lives.

Qualities of The Prince(ss)

A Prince’s time is valuable. His efforts and attention are gifts he bestows on the woman he’s interested in, and as such that woman’s esteem should be validated by it. She is envied by other women because of the Prince’s interest in her; it confirms there is something about her that sets her apart from other women. Her role becomes one of both humbling gratitude and excited, almost childlike, anticipations of him.

If that comes off like a pipe dream or a fake-it-till-you-make-it motivational screed, it’s because most men are so inured by a lifetime conditioning designed to hold them in the role of expectant, reverent, and deferring lover if they can perform to a woman’s standards. So ingrained is that subservience that a Princess’ acceptance of a man is exalted to an appreciation of spiritual, metaphysical, significance. God ordained her acceptance of him, the fates conspired or he “just got lucky”.

Beta men, in their Blue Pill expectations of women being rational agents, are often dumbfounded by the woman who compulsively returns over and over again to the Alpha ‘asshole’ who doesn’t respect, appreciate and love her like she deserves – like he would if she’d just come to her senses. We call that guy the emotional tampon, but what he doesn’t get is that the woman he’s orbiting is locked in a cycle that only a man with an SMV above her own can induce.

Even if that valuation is just perceptual, a woman’s Hypergamous optimization efforts will predispose her to wanting to lock that man down. This is the danger of relying on apex examples of a dynamic – women must still operate within their respective frames and within their capacity to accurately evaluate the SMV of the men she can realistically attract.

That semi-abusive Jerk boyfriend she loves so much? He’s not Channing Tatum or Brad Pitt, but contextually he’s the guy with the strength of her interest.

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

533 comments on “Strength of Interest

  1. @Softek – I like the fact that you use the ‘incel’ in quotes. There was a discussion in MGTOW HQ forums about how there is no such thing as a real ‘incel’ – a case was presented to a 21 year old virgin there where one of the dudes cousins was 350+ pounds about the same age as him and she was also a virgin. Would the 21yo hook up with her with all the contact details offered. He ended up saying no.

    My unsolicited advice would be to get an escort for the experience and get it out of the way – although most MGTOWs are even against that and rather stay celibate. It seems sex workers are stigmatised in the US and Canada for some reason, but on the other side of the Atlantic it is not looked down upon as much even by BP guys there. The comment by @rugby11 about US being most oversexed and prudish cannot be said enough although I love this country – Europe suffers from Tall Poppy Syndrome or the Crab Mentality when it comes to success in any endeavour.

    While I don’t blame Rollo for using these PUA terms at all as he has himself said SMV does not determine AV (Actual Value) as a human being – but ‘vol-cel’ is perhaps a better word imho. My own example – I have gone without sex for almost 7 months at a time, the single mother at work has huge tits and is probably my ultimate sexual fanatasy. I turned her down at an office party, my 6’6 coworker who is a hit with the ladies ended up hooking up and got herpes that night. There have been a few times when rubbing one instead has saved me and my friends from a lot of intricacies. Personally remaining celibate is not something I wanna do as the attraction is just enough to have sex with women at the very least if not interact with them too much but most American women have such repugnant masculine personalities – it is a boner killer. Perhaps someone bi- on this forum who has been with a tranny with implants/surgery modification might tell us the difference between that experience and American women. I hope it is indeed a million times different – as I will feel violated as a straight guy for being with American women. Roosh isn’t wrong about this despite him wanting to promote book sales of his adventures abroad.

    Also – I only say this because this was brought up las time, Bar Bar himself has said good things about Rollo in a recent podcast … his criticism is with most mainstream PUAs and making Game the focal point of your life and judging others negatively who don’t. Rollo is the exception that proves the rule, he has a huge chunk of MGTOW fans – eg the War Brides dynamic post has converted even a few burnt-out PUAs into MGTOW. At the end of the day everyone has ‘a game’ – I personally focus on SMV enhancing aspects that contribute to ‘AV’ as a human being.

    Everyone needs to make their own decision on how to use Game depending on their personal values and circumstance like Rollo has said already. His job is to write about Game from an amoral unsanitised perspective and stay non-political unless absolutely necessary.

    Anyways – I love vehement disagreements and criticisms, because that’s how you learn instead of the circle jerk that every movement invariably becomes.

    PEACE!

  2. Rollo, I never claimed game doesn’t work. Because of my looks girls have always shown interested in me so I never needed it but I’ve helped 4s become 6s and 5s become 7s using inner game material with them. It’s never made a 4 an 8 in my own personal experience with it and it hasn’t helped the guys I’ve worked with who are severely socially handicapped by Tourett’s , OCD, etc, is all I’m saying. Shoot me for being honest.

  3. @Mad Yale Grad
    I suppose I have to agree with your extreme example. Your profoundly mentally ill friends cannot attract women. A man without legs cannot squat or run. A man without arms and legs cannot climb a mountain. A blind woman can’t be a chef.

  4. @The Red Baron, MGTOWs claim 50% of American women under the age of 50 have an STD.

    ” I like the fact that you use the ‘incel’ in quotes. There was a discussion in MGTOW HQ forums about how there is no such thing as a real ‘incel’ – a case was presented to a 21 year old virgin there where one of the dudes cousins was 350+ pounds about the same age as him and she was also a virgin. Would the 21yo hook up with her with all the contact details offered. He ended up saying no.

    My unsolicited advice would be to get an escort for the experience and get it out of the way – although most MGTOWs are even against that and rather stay celibate. It seems sex workers are stigmatised in the US and Canada for some reason, but on the other side of the Atlantic it is not looked down upon as much even by BP guys there. ”

    – There are women even incels are turning down?!

    I think the stigma around sex work in the USA is softening what with porn and stripping being mainstream jobs and everyone’s 12 year old daughter sending out nekkid selfies to her school yard crush.

    In 15 years prostitution will be totally decriminalized and American college girls will increasingly utilize it to put them through school.

    Let freeeeeeeeeeeeeedom ring!

  5. @Rollo

    In other news: cars without wheels don’t go anywhere no matter how much power you give them. Guitars without strings don’t make good music no matter how well crafted they are. Finally, trolls don’t contribute anything useful to conversations.

  6. @Mad Yale Grad
    Christine Ha. Blind Chef. Even though I hate sweetbreads, I still respect her talent..

  7. Tom, yes. But what I’m surprised by is how common these more extreme forms of disorders, or issues if that’s a more pc word , seem to be. Either there’s been an increase or I’m just becoming more aware of what’s been around all along.

  8. @ Red Baron

    I disagree about there being no such thing as ‘incel,’ although I still can’t help but put the word in quotation marks most of the time for some reason.

    Two out of the three girls I’ve hooked up with have been over 300 pounds.

    Was I attracted to them? No. But I did it anyway. And I would hook up with unattractive girls if I knew there weren’t going to be any issues, e.g. STD’s, me having to deal with avoiding them if they pressed for a relationship —

    — I’ve avoided girls my whole life out of anxiety, whether they’re ugly or attractive. Even the ugly ones I easily could’ve fucked as I’ve been desperate for so long, but it’s always been the anxiety surrounding what happens after that kept me from doing it.

    I had multiple shots with very attractive girls, but my anxiety ruined it. I was afraid. Of what? STD’s, getting a girl pregnant, having to deal with her emotions/trying to contact me, etc.

    And with two out of the three hookups I had, I had full blown panic attacks. I couldn’t get it up. I managed to with the second hookup after a few hours, but the first one, I blew it. Too anxious. And when I say panic attack I mean panic — limbs numb and tingling, short of breath, sense of impending doom, lightheaded and dizzy.

    There’s a quote from Monsters and Magical Sticks: There’s No Such Thing as Hypnosis? by Steven Heller. It basically sums up my take on incel as well as any other issue.

    I’m still trying to figure this out. I’ve mentioned before that I was molested by a doctor when I was a kid, although I never told anyone about it. The fact that I can’t remember the last time I went to a physical and have avoided doctors my entire life since that day, and my near complete sexual withdrawal from the world, on top of the fact that sexual encounters have given me panic attacks consistently, makes me wonder.

    But ANYWAY, more important than all that, here’s the quote, which is one of my all-time favorites, and summarizes what I’m trying to say more eloquently than I can:

    ————————————-

    It seems ridiculous that somebody becomes a psychiatrist or a psychologist with years and years of schooling, and spends time telling a patient something obvious such as, “Of course you can be successful. There are opportunities in this world.”

    The real problem is how to interrupt the pattern of behavior that continues to reinforce the belief system, and how to help the patient examine their own belief system, to help them acknowledge other choices that are available in the world.

    The combination of internal belief systems (brought about by traumas, suggestions, or what have you), and the repetition of patterns of behavior that reinforce belief systems, simply results in an individual who is stuck and without choice. You must look not at what the world is doing to them, but rather what they are doing within the world based on what belief system and what patterns.

  9. I gotta say that paraplegics competing in Olympic running is definitely one of those things in my lifetime that I would consider a miraculous triumph of human determination and technology. Every dude I see doing that gets mad Man points. He ain’t first, but he’s competitive at an Olympic level. Would take me a lotta work to get there.

  10. “I had multiple shots with very attractive girls, but my anxiety ruined it. I was afraid. Of what? STD’s, getting a girl pregnant, having to deal with her emotions/trying to contact me, etc.”

    Softek, one of the 30 year old virgins I work with has germs phobia, along with ADD, used to have Tourretts but got over it, is addicted to video games and is on meds for depression and who knows what else, which have caused him to gain weight.

    He thinks sex is “gross” and is constantly saying why he will never get a gf, get married or have sex and cooking up scenarios in his head of how to get out from under the traps of a woman trying to corner him into sex.

  11. @MYG

    No you’re not. It’s a male space.

    @All

    Speaking of that, since Glenn and Rocket are both gonna be out and want to be there, I’m gonna move to next Sunday the 17th. I was thinking I would schedule things for 16:00 Central so that we could be done in time for folks on the East coast to do dinner.

  12. >@MYG: “OK! But only if you don’t be the guy who fills a sorry bastard’s head with fantasies that he’s going to become Super Man and consistently bed down a rotation of multiple Wonder Womans from now til he croaks.”

    A male-2 is not going to superman status or probably even male-9 status no matter what he does and he is not bedding wonder wominz ever unless he pays for it. Who said that?

    What we say is that MOST 2- men could improve to 7 or 8 status in less than a year. Hell, most 2’s could improve to 5 almost overnight by learning game and understanding attraction triggers and how to project high value.

    I think you game deniers must have tons of Estrogen blocking your success because you argue like hand wringing women.

    1. Hey hey hey! She didn’t mean “sorry bastards” She meant to say “sorry bastards with tourettes, ADD, autism, Aspergers and downs syndrome.

      Get it right.

      /sarcasm

  13. This respectable, SMV7 explains why she is hopelessly attracted to an obese, pasty, bald guy. Benjy might have the strongest Alpha game around. So much red pill truth packed into one short clip.

  14. The best inner and outer game is getting offline and into the woods. Indoor sedentary lifestyle is the absolute worst for physical genetics and mental health.

    “I’m gonna move to next Sunday the 17th. I was thinking I would schedule things for 16:00 Central so that we could be done in time for folks on the East coast to do dinner.”

    I’ll be there.

    1. @tom

      “The real tragedy of a man’s life in America is that he is struggling so hard for minimal return. ”

      Yeah that’s hard for me everyday. It’s as if I started in a pack of wolves and we are each being killed off really slowly.

      @glenn

      http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N2NTADxDuhA

      http://www.nicabm.com/nicabmblog/how-trauma-traps-survivors-in-the-past/

      Women NEVER want full discloser

      http://www.efttappingtraining.com/compulsion-to-repeat-trauma-eft-re-enactment-case-study/

      This one is a real good one from a males perspective of feeling disposable

      http://www.khironhouse.com/blog/researching-trauma-changing-paradigms/

      @theredbarron

      You know the weird thing is that the U.S. Produces the most amount of sexual material in the world manwin owns almost all 8 out the ten porn tubes online. Europe consumes far less but when you look at game and porn one thing I just realized is that with game you work you don’t have to get laid or be an incel. But you work at it…

      With porn it steals all of you into someone who has already been giving up to you. Thanks for bringing that to my attention.

      @the lone planet

      “The mind is a beautiful place to live.”

      Not when it protects you from rejection by disengaging in the world you live… It can kill you that way

      @softek

      “The combination of internal belief systems (brought about by traumas, suggestions, or what have you), and the repetition of patterns of behavior that reinforce belief systems, simply results in an individual who is stuck and without choice. You must look not at what the world is doing to them, but rather what they are doing within the world based on what belief system and what patterns.”

      That’s a wonderful thing to think about.

      @Sun wukong

      Count me in brother

      Had a weird red pill moment last evening went back to the smaller version of myself and just wanted to wake up from more blue pill bs terror anyway I haven’t played in awhile so I usually end up thinking about something with science fiction this film Sunshine came to mind because of it reminds me of a blue pill family in space trying to be righteous and SJW gun hoe…
      Huge portion of my upbringing…

      Kinda brought your handle in perspective

  15. On the topic of becoming a prince:

    One exercise I like to use is imagining the worst case scenario regarding something you want to do, but are afraid of doing.

    I think it’d be good for guys to ask themselves: “What’s the worst thing that’ll happen if I think of myself as a prince?”

    Your own mind will produce the answers it holds: the inner belief system.

    For me, for example, the first thing that came to mind was:

    “I’ll have to deal with conflict.”

    Then I think of people being angry. And memories pop up of times that people were angry with me. And it intensifies the feelings.

    So in a few moments we’ve gone from imagining being a different way, to having access to subconscious memories that are our current foundation for how we are right now.

    The rabbit hole just gets deeper and deeper.

    But not so deep that there isn’t anything substantial or concrete. Most of the time I think there are specific patterns underlying our behaviors, and they’re supported by memories, which form belief systems, AKA our “how-to manual” for operating in the world.

    Other guys have made the transformation. I can think about banging some girl right now, imagine it in my mind, and I could tell you everything about why it makes me anxious. The most seemingly dissociated memories pop up and support this great ability I have to psych myself out of having sex or pursuing women at all.

    Honestly I think this is completely reversible. I’ve been getting wrecked at work lately by early hours and longer shifts and more intense manual labor, and have just been in survival mode, fighting tooth and nail to get enough sleep and make sure I eat enough, because I started losing weight very quickly along with increasing insomnia, anxiety, depression and unstable moods and that’s a red flag of metabolic damage/reduced metabolic rate, in response to energy demands being greater than the body’s ability to meet them, which also elevates stress hormones to try to compensate for that and is probably responsible for most of the negative symptoms I’m experiencing.

    ANYWAY…that being said, I know this is reversible. It’s almost like a phobia. And those can be reversed.

    One of my favorite zen koans applies perfectly here:

    ———————–

    A great Japanese warrior named Nobunaga decided to attack the enemy although he had only one-tenth the number of men the opposition commanded. He knew that he would win, but his soldiers were in doubt.

    On the way he stopped at a Shinto shrine and told his men: “After I visit the shrine I will toss a coin. If heads comes, we will win; if tails, we will lose. Destiny holds us in her hand.”

    Nobunaga entered the shrine and offered a silent prayer. He came forth and tossed a coin. Heads appeared. His soldiers were so eager to fight that they won their battle easily.

    “No one can change the hand of destiny,” his attendant told him after the battle.

    “Indeed not,” said Nobunaga, showing a coin which had been doubled, with heads facing either way.

  16. @softek

    I read your repsonse about fatties – it just proved the point about thirst in the US (I think it was an RoK article I had read a few years ago when my friend intimated me about the manosphere). It is really hard for me as a foreigner to comprehend this. Again I am sincerely sorry for badmouthing North America – I love your founding fathers, Constitution etc. All my Yank friends think similarly – few even said they would have gay sex in prison than NO SEX ever again if they got a life sentence. But again I have had issues understanding men with a milf, BBW, BDSM and Dominatrix fetish too despite me having a pierced belly-button fetish.

    We are all hardwired differently even straight men – sorry for using the word ‘thirst’, The Universal Experience Fallacy rings true, I hope one day men stop putting each other down by using dissuasive pejorative definitions (I am guilty of this myself – I admit) and ridiculing someone’s manhood due to having and pursuing different interests.

    Tschüß!

  17. @Glenn

    They need to build up some confidence and experience and also just get off the schneid if they are incels.

    You know the funny thing? What you’re directly addressing is the reason people say “There’s no such thing as an incel even among guys” which is largely true. I can believe (due to hypergamy) that there’s guys who are unattractive enough that there’s no way they’ll ever get laid, but the vast majority of incel guys aren’t that unattractive. Most of them I’ve met could just lower their standards a bit and at least pop that cherry.

    I realize that a lot of people would be quick to jump in and say paying a pro is an alternative, but I’m gonna say no on that. That won’t build confidence the way saying “Well, she wasn’t that hot but damn she sure thought I was” will. You know a prostitute isn’t in to you. That slightly chubby girl that all the other guys were ignoring though? Man she was so grateful to you, she’d throw herself in front of a bus to save your ass. Might even be fat enough to stop it in time for you.

    Bottom line is yes, even a slightly less attractive chick displaying real affection can teach you what a nice thing it is, build your confidence, and get you out of the slump. After that when you finally have a cute chick acting the same way, you know you’ve gotten the shit right.

    Ain’t it nice to not be talking about politics? Lol.

    Politics always becomes a shit show for one reason or another without actually resolving anything, hence the reason I only like to address it when absolutely necessary as part of a broader topic. See why I plan to largely avoid it on the show now? I ain’t dumb.

  18. I am pert certain the average dude, of average size, motivation etc can bench 315. The problem is not,generally, lack of anything but knowledge. If dudes would listen to Dave Tate, Louie Simmions, Ed Connan etc and bench press like a strength athlete they would get there.

    Really, a 315 bench press is a low bar of achievement in the scheme of things. most guys can add 10-20% on their bench in a few weeks by learning how to bench. I say that as a guy who had to work 15 years to go from 335 to 420

    Politics is war by other means. That’s why it’s shit show. Well that and a lack of pragmatism & weird desire to find political perfection vs getting a job done. Talk is cheap, brass knuckles cheaper and more effective

    1. @SFC Ton
      First trainer was a USA bob slider for the USA Olympic team each one of his muscles was at peak.
      I got more buff with him than on my own…
      http://www.rugbyworld.com/takingpart/fitness-takingpart
      By the way bobsledding is so underrated those guys pull so much weight and move so freaking fast. I recommended a few viewings if you have never seen a full team perform before.

  19. Talk is cheap, brass knuckles cheaper and more effective

    Personally I prefer sap gloves, but to each his own.

  20. @zdr01dz
    Christ. That’s why you don’t openly talk about your open relationships (one-sided or otherwise) and harems and anti-marriage views etc. with the general public. Both men (even red pill dudes like Stern) and women are DYING to tear that shit apart. The girl can be PERFECTLY HAPPY in the relationship day to day, until you go public and she starts getting social pressure from everyone that the arrangement is suddenly bad for her and they all turn her into a victim and say shit like “why do you want her to LEARN things instead of watch TV??? You monster!”

    Ridiculous shit lol This is why people don’t realize that an mLTR or one-sided oLTR etc. is possible, because the successful cases of it are top fuckin secret to avoid this, that’s why they work. The ones that go public like Gene Simmons where suddenly everyone starts pressuring the girl, fall apart so all anyone sees are the examples where it doesn’t work.

    A girl will be totally fine with an arrangement until she feels like people are judging her for being totally fine with it. That clip is the perfect example of why discretion is important for out-of-the-social-norm arrangements.

  21. LOL Sun

    No doubt Rugby they are underrated, but I think most athletes at that level are. Sprinters, light/ mid weight lifters and throwers are amazing all around athletes and every world class strength coach I have read say wrestling requires the best athletes (a couple say defensive ends are a close second) but I have always been impressed with the quality of athlete bob sledders are

  22. @ YaReally

    You are right, Stern and crew were super hard on Benjy. But don’t worry about him. He’s weird, fat and unattractive but he is the ultimate alpha and nothing slows him down for long. He eventually left Sarah, the blond girl in the clip. He started dating an even hotter brunette pictured below. They recently broke up. Benjy will get another hotty, he always does.

    http://imgur.com/ltipZBi

  23. @ YaReally

    My friend’s gotten tons of social pressure about having two girlfriends. They both keep coming back to him even though they know about each other, even with all the drama.

    I’ve told him more than once that the reason they both keep coming back is probably because he’s with both of them, and has other girls on the side too.

    He denied this. He’s acting mostly Alpha without realizing it, because he still believes in Blue Pill ideals, and feels a lot of guilt about being with both of these girls. Like a suicidal amount of guilt.

    I don’t know what they’re saying to him but they give him major shit about being with the other girls, etc. I wonder if that’s a shit test? Because to me the medium is the message — and the fact that they both have stayed with him for the past few years despite knowing that he’s sleeping around is the message.

    The words they’re saying are tearing him down because he’s taking them seriously as what their message is. He thinks that they really want him to just pick one girl and forget the rest, love only them, etc. I tried to tell him that maybe he’d find if he DID pick just one, that they wouldn’t be so insanely into him anymore, but again, he said “Nah, it doesn’t work like that.”

    I wonder how much social pressure has played into it. He’s mentioned that he thinks both the girls’ families thinks he’s a piece of shit. I don’t know anything about that whole situation or what the extent of his interaction with them has been but I’m sure that’s not helping at all. And comments from his friends — unlike me, who’s the only one who didn’t judge him and actually said I didn’t think he was doing anything wrong, while all his other friends told him he was a horrible person and should be ashamed of himself, that he was a disgusting human being, etc.

    Hmmm….

  24. The evolution of this thread deserves it’s own thread. Only one (Ya) besides Rollo seems to even understand any human social dynamics while we discuss pablum like lifting weights and fame which are situational Alpha traits.

    One more time: Your physique/fame/money/blah/blah are POSSIBLE fitness indicators that give plausible deniability to a woman (and proof of her status) looking to consolidate, settle for those traits and remain socially intact. They ACTUALLY mark you as meat, both for her and the player banging her.

    Benching a gazillion pounds means insecure. Ferrari (in 2014) means insecure. Paying for “bottles” means insecure.

    I’m thinking some of you all have never seen an apex, and it makes me wonder how rare they really are because you are describing very average beta traits as somehow alpha and spending precious time flogging an observationally false self-reinforcing concept.

    It’s really very fascinating and is leading me to some interesting conclusions about how to exploit this…..lack?…of simple male reason and beyond that the utter willingness to conflate reality in the hopes of preserving identity.

    Nothing wrong with profiting from the insecurity’s of others especially if it is THIS easy.

  25. @ Tilikum
    Your physique/fame/money/blah/blah are POSSIBLE fitness indicators

    Those aren’t possible fitness indicators. Those ARE fitness. I’ve never met a woman who wasn’t turned on by all 3.

    Any man that earns $100,000 per year, has a respectable physique and good personality can lock down an HB8 – HB10. That’s the blueprint. It’s that simple.

  26. @Softek
    “The words they’re saying are tearing him down because he’s taking them seriously as what their message is.”

    You got it. His problem is two-fold:

    1) He feels guilty about this situation because he’s still under social conditioning that tells him what he’s doing is wrong/abusive/etc.

    2) He’s not smart enough to be discreet from day one, so now he has a shitload of drama to deal with

    If he 1) accepted that his desire for sexual variety is completely normal and healthy and society’s idea that a man should only get a boner for one chick his entire life is retarded, and 2) was more discreet about all this shit so that their friends and family didn’t know they were part of a harem so they weren’t pressuring them all the time, he would be living on easy-street.

    He might make it work, the girls are probably cool with some amount of drama since they stay with him through it, but it’s a recipe for disaster long-term and I don’t see a way it won’t either blow up in his face or if it succeeds long term basically be a nightmare of drama and stress 24/7. Not the type or arrangement I’d prefer lol

    The way I do it, the girls know I’m probably seeing other girls but generally don’t know when or who. Basically when I’m not with them I’m doing my own thing and they understand that. If they’re someone I’m serious about then they can call me their boyfriend to their friends/family which avoids a bunch of social pressure and avoids drama for me. Girls are generally fine with being with a guy that other women want, as long as he fucks them proper and gives them the emotional rollercoasters they need and, most importantly, HE’S comfortable with the arrangement. What you feel, she feels.

    @Tilikum
    “Only one (Ya) besides Rollo seems to even understand any human social dynamics”

    Cuz I actually go OUT. And cold approach girls. And interact with people and strangers. And befriend alpha dudes and Naturals. And wing with them. And actually apply game. lol This shit is all out there for anyone to see.

    “while we discuss pablum like lifting weights and fame which are situational Alpha traits.”

    These are super-cool things but they’re passive. I prefer to be pro-active. I don’t want to hope that a hot girl walks into the gym I’m in and hope that she sees my rippling muscles and hope that she likes them and hope that she comes over to sit beside me and hope that she opens me and hope that she wants to eventually at some point maybe have sex. Most guys will choose that route because it avoids risking any kind of “bad feels” lol But I want to choose the girls I get. I want to see some hottie wherever I happen to be and be able to go over to her and get her.

    A guy can climb mount everest to be an alpha badass if he wants, but there’s no girls at the top of that mountain and when I put a smokin hot brunette with glowing green “fuck me” eyes in front of him at the bar, he’s gonna’ choke ’cause he spent his time climbing a mountain instead of learning how to flirt.

    “Your physique/fame/money/blah/blah are POSSIBLE fitness indicators”

    All that stuff is like a slutty outfit on a girl. We look at a girl dolled up in a peacocked slutty outfit and assume she’s probably a hot lay. We don’t KNOW that, we just assume that a girl who dresses slutty is probably comfortable with her sexuality and likes her body and enjoys sex etc. But we don’t KNOW that. She COULD just be a shitty frigid starfish virgin lay. But when she wears that slutty outfit it’s an instant indicator to all the men in the room that she is more likely to be a good lay than the no-makeup bookworm in a baggy turtleneck and mousy hair. That bookworm chick COULD be an incredible lay, but we glance at her and assume that it’s not likely the case.

    A guy who’s tall/rich/famous/etc. is just wearing a slutty outfit to a girl. She sees that and goes “I can assume that he’s probably got alpha qualities to him because he has those external attributes”. It’s just short-hand. When I approach a girl, I’m like a 6 maybe a 7 on a good day. I’m a very average looking 5’9″ guy with a bit of a beer belly etc. Nothing remarkable at all, there are no chicks turning their heads to stare at me when I walk into a room or giggling as I pass by them hoping I’ll open them lol But I know that by expressing my personality and running game I can very quickly demonstrate all the alpha shit that a girl is attracted to, so once I get IN there, I can do the equivalent of that bookworm girl running upstairs and putting on a slutty dress. I suddenly become attractive to them.

    This is also why girls are sad when a hot/rich/tall/etc. dude turns out to be lame. Because it’s like getting that slutty outfit girl home and finding out she’s a virgin saving herself for marriage. It’s a huge disappointment because you had different expectations based on those external indicators you were going on.

    That’s why when you see those guys who piss & moan about “my buddy is so good looking, he gets ALL the girls, they just come up to him and ignore me!! stupid bitches!!! looks are everything!! I’m going to the gym grrr!!!”, they always sound like retarded negative fucks. Because they’ve built up this huge victim mentality and feed into it on their own to excuse their shitty results. Guess what, I’ve had PLENTY of studly-ass wingmen. Male model looking dudes, guys way more alpha badass manly than me, and girls giggle and turn their back to me to talk to them. But guess what I do then: I get up in their face and get their attention BACK. I open nearby sets, I throw drama at them, I tell them “HEY, don’t be fuckin’ rude. Introduce yourself or I won’t let you fuck my handsome buddy here.” and just be undeniable. If I’m on my game and demo’ing alpha traits despite my looks, the girls will switch to me (or pAImAI me first if my buddy’s having an off night and skulking around the bar like a vagina).

    You just step up and take action. The same way that bookworm girl would have to do something to show she was a sex-pot in bed to get your interest. Nobody owes you shit, you have to take it lol

    This is also why these guys are always like “My buddy isn’t even FUNNY or INTERESTING, he’s LAME but he’s hot so girls want him instead of ME, stupid bitches society needs to call these sluts out on this bullshit”. Because 1) the guy writing that isn’t nearly as interesting or fun to be around as he thinks he is, it comes out in his bitter-ass writing, and 2) guys without game experience are TERRIBLE judges of what’s attractive to girls. Half the time I’m flirting with a girl the guys who overhear us think the girl hates me or that I’m a huge asshole etc. and can’t even wrap their heads around why the girl is making out with me a few minutes later. Because they don’t get all the subcommunications and shit that are going on when you’re flirting with a girl. You can seduce a girl with just the right EYE-CONTACT and long slow pauses in what you’re saying, that shit builds sexual tension. But then that bitter fuck goes online crying about how “He didn’t even SAY anything!!! It’s such bullshit, it’s just cuz he’s taller than me! I’m such a victim waaaahh” because he has no idea about any of that.

    Anybody who hasn’t experienced good looking rich dudes standing on death row at the bar, getting blown out by average girls, and going home to porn/hookers hasn’t befriended enough of those dudes and is armchair theorizing. This shit is out there every fuckin weekend for anyone to go see lol

    Field is king. The field reveals all. Mentally masturbating and watching your buddy while you stand around with a drink up at your chest is not “the field”.

  27. @ YaReally

    A guy who’s tall/rich/famous/etc. is just wearing a slutty outfit to a girl. She sees that and goes “I can assume that he’s probably got alpha qualities to him because he has those external attributes”.

    I have to strongly disagree with that. Those are the traits that women look for in a mate based on millions of years of evolution. That is a strong indication that those traits are objectively superior.

  28. @MYG

    My point being is that women start at “average” to “above average” (5, 6) in their mind (and pretty much all the minds of women). While men can start off lower and then reach up to these 5s and 6s (what a joke) with improvement. No improvement required for women….they just need to be accepted for who they are by men (another joke). It’s not only black men who are inflating the value of these fat women. Thirsty men of all types are screwing up the market. They’re so desperate for female attention (plus it’s getting harder to find one that isn’t fat) that these men will eventually “take what they can get”.

    I truly find it hilarious when a fat women is playing hard to get. These women used to, at least, have a good sense of humor (you had to when you were fat). Today, they act like they are supermodels (220 lb supermodels, none the less).

    More men need to hold women to higher standards instead of buying into the nonsense. If she’s fat, then she gets no love from me.

  29. @Mad Yale Grad

    – Because “You Go Girl” was all over that! ?????? Sure, man.

    OH, you misread that to be directed at you? So you DO identify as female, glad we cleared that up. Go re-read my original comment to see how you just outed yourself as a hairy vagina.

  30. @zdr01dz
    “I have to strongly disagree with that. Those are the traits that women look for in a mate based on millions of years of evolution. That is a strong indication that those traits are objectively superior.”

    They look for those traits because those traits are external indicators that the guy probably has attractive alpha qualities, not because those traits are, themselves, inherently attractive.

    All pickup does is show guys how to purposely demonstrate having those attractive alpha qualities that tall/rich/famous also indicate a guy probably has.

    Any poor fat short guy with a hot girl, and any tall rich good-looking dude who doesn’t get laid when he goes out, demonstrate that those traits are not objectively superior because they’re not consistent and those situations happen all the time. If those things were consistent then girls would all have pics of Ronnie Coleman in their locker at school. When something isn’t consistent you have to drill further into “why does this sometimes work but sometimes NOT work? Why do girls want to fuck Tom Cruise but not Bill Gates? Why can 5’9″ ugly balding ginger Tyler take girls off taller better looking dudes in a club? How could Cupid Shmupid on YouTube or the Simple Pickup guys ever get laid? Girls should be walking past them to go hit on the tall jacked rich guy up the street.”

    You keep drilling into why something sometimes does and sometimes doesn’t work until you find something that IS a consistent principle, like: “dominance is alpha/attractive” which is true whether the guy is tall or short, rich or poor, etc. That’s a consistent principle and a lot of PUA teaching is built off that consistent principle. All PUA is doing is teaching guys to demonstrate that consistent principle quickly in the interaction. The tall guy is LIKELY to be dominant, so she’ll check him out over the short guy, but if the short guy steps up and actively demonstrates dominance and the tall guy is a chode, the short guy gets the attraction because “dominance is alpha/attractive” is a consistent principle.

  31. @zdr01dz

    Dude. It ISN’T fitness. It’s what your hamster is rationalizing as fitness and your way forward. Really listen to what Ya said, read Rollo. Stop thinking beta.

    Easiest guy in the world to poach from was an SO1 buddy of mine in SD. He would go in with all that gay ass Navy SEAL ra ra and benchpress bullshit and literally DONATE the pussy. Bitches love the fringe outlier that proves the rule, and tools out the hero homie….dark triad.. Loki NOT Thor (cannot BELIEVE I feel like I have to resort to fucking movie references).

  32. @Ya

    I’ll go one step further and say that what you describe here (although admittedly 6’2″ and 250) is true and even means more that surface fakery: “once I get IN there, I can do the equivalent of that bookworm girl running upstairs and putting on a slutty dress. I suddenly become attractive to them.”

    …..Depth. I hear it constantly. Emotional and intellectual depth (and zero fear) is so rare, ESPECIALLY to the 19-24 YO crowd. (True, I roll around a party school..ASU). Millions of guys making money, getting tattooed, and playing asshole buddy in the gym an hour a day. One Loki, a gazillion Thors. (fuck I did it again).

    GRGP.

  33. @YaReally
    They look for those traits because those traits are external indicators that the guy probably has attractive alpha qualities, not because those traits are, themselves, inherently attractive.

    Once again I have to respectfully disagree. Being fit is objectively better than being fat. Being strong is objectively better than being weak. Same goes for rich, famous, etc. etc. Those traits are the actual “products” that women are buying. When a man has those traits it objectively improves the lives of his family.

    In my mind PUA is the sales pitch, but those traits are the actual product.

    https://rationalmale.files.wordpress.com/2015/01/commodity.jpg

  34. @ Tilikum
    Dude. It ISN’T fitness. It’s what your hamster is rationalizing as fitness and your way forward. Really listen to what Ya said, read Rollo. Stop thinking beta.

    I disagree. Strength, wealth, fame. etc. etc. IS fitness. Those things make life better. Game isn’t fitness. Game is the sales pitch. A man needs both.

    http://ethanacall.weebly.com/uploads/2/6/2/5/26255448/8769219_orig.jpg
    This guy has amazing game and probably a lot of success under his belt. But he’s still selling a rag that I don’t want. If he was selling a Mercedes but had just 10% of the game I might talk to him.

  35. @zdr01dz

    Sales eh. Think about Tony Robbins, a genius. Is he still Tony Robbins without the fame, size, and money? He would tell you yes.

    His ability defines him, not the outward manifestations of such. His ability is infinitely reproducible, as are the fitness indicators. Women sniff out capacity and authenticity, not the easily faked indicators.

    You should read Goldmund and Narcissus by Hesse. Power and capacity come at the intersection of both characters (or yin and yang) not the binary choice of picking the “best” option.

    I wish Rollo would get in here. You are close, but it takes alot to push a guy over into his true actualized and capable self.

  36. “His ability defines him, not the outward manifestations of such. His ability is infinitely reproducible, as are the fitness indicators. Women sniff out capacity and authenticity, not the easily faked indicators. ”

    Sage certainly sniffed him out. So did his ex wife. And what about that whole ONENESS blessing scam he ran with those two fake spiritual gurus from India? Or did he run that scam on them?

  37. “No improvement required for women….they just need to be accepted for who they are by men (another joke). ”

    But they are not accepted by the top notch or even lesser but still good quality men. How often do you see a sloppy fat 3 chick walking around with a tall, good looking 8 holding her hand? At the very most she’ll get a tall, obese 4

    “It’s not only black men who are inflating the value of these fat women.”

    Mostly. But even then you won’t catch an 8 brother with a 3 gf. You’ll catch an 8 brother with a cute faced fat chick who would be an 8 herself if she lost 50 pounds, but her current weight makes her a 6, maybe a 5 to some.

    “They’re so desperate for female attention (plus it’s getting harder to find one that isn’t fat) that these men will eventually “take what they can get”.

    Hmmm…. average guys. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an above average guy with a below average gf. Have you?

  38. “Any man that earns $100,000 per year, has a respectable physique and good personality can lock down an HB8 – HB10. That’s the blueprint. It’s that simple.”

    My life. The grass is always greener though. Some 8-9s are good peeps. Many are stuck up spoiled narcissists. The more makeup, the more glam, the more spam.

    And no chick is a 10. Do not pedestalize. Do not.

    1. @Solftek

      “while all his other friends told him he was a horrible person and should be ashamed of himself, that he was a disgusting human being, etc.”

      Sounds to damn familiar. What may help is going away for awhile and not back to the same environment…

      @Tilikum

      “I’m thinking some of you all have never seen an apex,”

      I have read Rollo but No show me…

      Here’s what comes close to Apex that I have “seen”

      Theirs a fucking movie reference for you.

      “…..Depth. I hear it constantly. Emotional and intellectual depth (and zero fear) is so rare, ”

      It helps to face that head on…

      “but it takes alot to push a guy over into his true actualized and capable self.”

      Yeah that’s the wonder of being YOU its a great damn feeling. Sometimes I only get their by going through hell.

      @Yareally

      “And wing with them. ”

      ““dominance is alpha/attractive” is a consistent principle.”

      Here here

      Anytime your in dc brother

      @zdr01dz

      “presentation is everything.”

      Cooking for myself helps me think that way.

      @Rollo
      Approached 5 women today. Going to keep at it.

  39. ‘I’m thinking some of you all have never seen an apex”

    I might have and didn’t know it. What would you describe as apex?

  40. @ Tilikum
    Tony Robbins is a charismatic genius and I love his videos on YouTube. He possesses amazing, over the top sales skills and game.

    But if you took away his money, fame and physical strength what use would he be to his wife?

  41. YaReally, both Monique and Jada Smith went public about their oLTRs/marriages. Its really no big deal anymore. 25 years from now they will be as mainstream as “nuclear family” was in ’59.

    Meh. Shrugs.

  42. zdroidz, did you receive the oneness blessing/deeksha?

    “Tony Robbins is a charismatic genius and I love his videos on YouTube. He possesses amazing, over the top sales skills and game.

    But if you took away his money, fame and physical strength what use would he be to his wife?”

    Which one? Becky married him when he was flat broke and helped him build his empire. Sage cheated on her own hubby to steal him away from Becky when he was at the top of his apex game. When asked about this in interviews he said he likes to live life at full speed. LOL!

  43. Softek,

    “My friend’s gotten tons of social pressure about having two girlfriends. They both keep coming back to him even though they know about each other, even with all the drama.

    I’ve told him more than once that the reason they both keep coming back is probably because he’s with both of them, and has other girls on the side too.

    He denied this. He’s acting mostly Alpha without realizing it, because he still believes in Blue Pill ideals, and feels a lot of guilt about being with both of these girls. Like a suicidal amount of guilt. ”

    – These people are not married or even engaged so what is there to feel guilty about? When did Americans become so uptight about dating? Back in the 50s dating meant a different guy/girl every weekend if you were popular and you only dated one exclusively after you both agreed to “go steady”.

    So how come in the new millenium people think dating must mean one person only? When did that bullshit shift happen?

  44. So for all the guys y’ll show as being 3s and 4s are all facially above average. Benjy? He may be chubby (but he’s not THAT fat, come on) and he may be pink (Scottish genes) but he’s got a very symmetrical youthful baby face with good and proportioned features.

    The fake celeb posted by Rollo as a “4” and Steve O as a “3” and this Benjy guy as being totally disgusting are all bad examples because all 3 have good genetic material and all have faces that are above average for American men.

  45. @zdr01dz

    Any man that earns $100,000 per year, has a respectable physique and good personality can lock down an HB8 – HB10. That’s the blueprint. It’s that simple.

    I have to disagree with this for a pretty simple reason: that quite literally describes me. Like I’m not joking. I currently make just over 100k/yr, I’m in good enough shape that guys 3-4″ than me are actually threatened by my martial arts straining and strength (and I’m nowhere near what I think I’m capable of… yet), and I’m a really fun guy to talk to. I’m still not rolling in the pussy with all that going for me.

    A guy’s gotta have Game unless he’s just insanely amazing in all of those departments.

  46. @ ya – MYG has been trolling in the last few Rollo posts but he/she has been sussed out. Nothing and nobody gets through.

    So don’t quit posting your insightful thoughts here – I for one want to read them.

    @ zdr01dz – If you want to use a sales analogy, yes presentation is important, but only to the extent of first impressions. Sales (like PUA) is a process/methodology. We have ‘cold calling’ (approaching), first impression in a meeting (presentation), the pitch (hook point), building trust (building comfort), making the buying logistics easy (seduction) procrastinating about making the purchase/commitment (LMR) and then the buying (fucking). Missing any of those key elements and you could lose the sale (fuck).

    So yes, as Rollo has said here – all things being equal, a woman will be initially more attracted to a taller and/or fitter guy, but, unless that tall / fit guy can DHV and have social dominance, then she will not get to the arousal stages, get bored and look elsewhere.

    I’m a very tall guy, but I still have to approach and have tight Game to get laid.

  47. http://imgur.com/LRP4A8d
    In this photo the man would be the “Shake Weight” and the unforgettable presentation would be his game / PUA skills.

    But no matter how good this ad is it’s still just a Shake Weight. By comparison a fat, broke loser is still a fat, broke loser no matter how good his game is.

  48. “…guys 3-4″ taller than me are actually threatened by my martial arts training…” rather. Wish my fingers would type what my brain is thinking.

  49. zdoidz,

    “Schwarzenegger’s ugly mistress wasn’t the exception. ”

    Was she cute at the time of the affair?

    “Edelman just won the Superbowl and for that night he was one of the top 100 most desirable men on planet earth. Here is a photo of the chick he picked up. She’s ok, but definitely not in the top 100 women on planet earth. She looks like a younger version of any of the mom’s that live on my street. Nothing special.”

    That girl is cute, but like you say nothing out of the ordinary aside the fact she’s not fat.

    Do you think the world’s top 100 most beautiful women were contacting him that night? Maybe he went with the best option available to him at the time since the world’s top 100 beautiful women were not attending the game.

    Most of the spectators at Superbowl are middle aged chubsters. She at least looks cheerleader material.

  50. @Sun Wukong
    I have to disagree with this for a pretty simple reason: that quite literally describes me.

    You’re right maybe I could have said that better.

    Any man that earns $100,000 per year, has a respectable physique and good personality has a reasonable chance to lock down an HB8 – HB10.

    Most won’t because quite simply there aren’t enough hot chicks to go around. But at that level you’ve got all the muscle you need to win. After that success depends on game and luck. Where I live the moms who live in $1,000,000 homes don’t look much different than the moms who live in $500,000 homes. Thin and pretty is very common. You get down to $250,000 and below and I see obesities everywhere.

  51. “I have to disagree with this for a pretty simple reason: that quite literally describes me. Like I’m not joking. I currently make just over 100k/yr, I’m in good enough shape that guys 3-4″ than me are actually threatened by my martial arts straining and strength (and I’m nowhere near what I think I’m capable of… yet), and I’m a really fun guy to talk to. I’m still not rolling in the pussy with all that going for me.

    A guy’s gotta have Game unless he’s just insanely amazing in all of those departments.”

    …. Uh, what’s your face game like? I ask because the above describes me and I’ve never had a problem getting girls, ever. Without game. And even when I had no job. They usually talk to me first. Face and voice matter too. I’ll hear your voice on Sunday, but what’s going on between the ears brah?

  52. @zdr01dz

    Honestly the modern SMV inflation on women rears its ugly head a lot. In the past (i.e. around the time I was born) those 3 were enough, and in fact that’s pretty much how my father got my mother. She was a solid 8 in her college days, and I look like the spitting image of my dad.

    He’s never been overweight for a day of his life, ran marathons in to his 40s. I’ve not remained in that good a shape but I’m much stronger in the upper body than he ever was. Plus he was a medical student and his practice eventually got up to making him 250k/yr or so. Only thing that cost him my mom was beating the shit out of her and me at the same time.

    Yet with the same assets my father had at my age, I’m lucky to land HB5s consistently. FUMPs, FUMPs everywhere. Now you’ve gotta have game to consistently land HB6-7 with what I’ve got, and tight game to be in the HB8+ range.

    I’m doing all the work I can to improve, but those characteristics are just the bare fucking minimum these days in the US.

  53. @ stuttie
    If you want to use a sales analogy, yes presentation is important, but only to the extent of first impressions.

    The only thing I’d add is that game is also useful after the sale because it keeps the woman entertained. Lets just say I’m not the most attractive guy in the world. But I’ve got awesome game. No doubt game has helped me smooth over the rough spots in my relationship. Game makes things fun for the chick.

  54. Rollo Twitter,

    “1 in 3 on Tinder are married with women being the most frequent cheaters: ”

    Did you expect otherwise?

    American kids raised in a nuclear family home have various advantages over kids raised in single parent homes.

  55. @ Sun Wukong
    I’m doing all the work I can to improve, but those characteristics are just the bare fucking minimum these days in the US.

    I was off the market back in 1990 so no doubt times have changed. I’m 45 and honestly if I was single again I might go MGTOW. I’m not going to wear a condom and I’m not going to work for it. Maybe 1 in 1,000 40 year old women is attractive enough to make my head turn. I’d probably start hanging out with my buddies and get good at video games, hehe.

  56. ” Only thing that cost him my mom was beating the shit out of her and me at the same time.”

    Lovely.

    ;(

    My heart goes out to ya man. We’ll discuss on Sunday the work I’ve done in situations like that and I’ll connect with Blaximus about FAS . We need to evolve as a species.

  57. “I’m 45 and honestly if I was single again I might go MGTOW. I’m not going to wear a condom and I’m not going to work for it. Maybe 1 in 1,000 40 year old women is attractive enough to make my head turn.”

    And about half of those 40 year old women have STDs so if you’re not going to wear a condom, better leave ’em alone.

  58. @ zdroids – I agree. In fact, Game is more critical in a LTR or marriage.

    I agree with Sun on the $100k thing…

    Problem is two fold…

    1. $100K is ‘average’ these days (where I live anyway). You’d need to be on $250k+ to get the gold diggers wet.

    2. And even if you were on $250k, once you telegraph that info to a women you are immediately put in the beta bucks zone. She will see you as a provider more, a hot fuck less.

    As I mentioned before, I fucked the hottest chicks when I was a penniless club muso and bartender and I drove a rustbucket van and lived in a shitty share-house. Hell, I even remember a few nice bangs when I worked at McDonalds.

    I never EVER will disclose to women what I do for a living before I’ve banged her a few times.

  59. http://imgur.com/yC7M2Rq
    If I was single again and I couldn’t lock down a woman this attractive or close to it I’d go MGTOW. I’m not going to perform for anything less. Translation: If someday I became single that’s the way I would probably stay.

  60. ^^^
    Tony Robbins is a zillionaire and his wife is incredibly hot. But there are firemen in my city with wives this hot. After a certain point money doesn’t change the equation much.

  61. @stuttie

    I never EVER will disclose to women what I do for a living before I’ve banged her a few times.

    Agree so much with this. I tell a woman I’m a well paid software engineer, she’s instantly gonna toss me in the BB box. I just feed women bullshit these days.

    “I’m a puppy phrenologist.”
    “I’m a vaginal inspector.”
    “I’m an international man of mystery.”
    “I’m no one of consequence, you just need to know I fuck like a wild animal.”

    Anything but the truth. Bitches don’t need the truth. They need my dick.

  62. @ sun – Here in Sydney $100k (total package) is about, or just above the average for a guy). I’ve heard that $80k is the true average.
    But then our house prices are ridiculous ($800k for just a 3 bedder in an ok area). I’m on a $100k and I struggle week to week. The child support kills me, but that’s another story.

    re never letting on what you do for a living, I try to make them guess (knowing I’ll never tell them). It gets some playful interaction going & gets their little imagination hamsters spinning (is he a cop, bouncer, drug dealer, builder, etc).

    If they keep pushing I’ll tell them something funny / totally improbable that makes their question look petty and shallow.

    Chimney Sweep, Lighthouse Keeper, Coroner, etc etc

    I’m going out Gaming big time this weekend, will try Puppy Phrenologist lol

  63. “never use an allegory to illustrate a point, never try to relate a fictional story, movie or character to a real world dynamic”.

    Ahem…

    http://therationalmale.com/2015/02/02/the-art-of-amog/

    I am being redundant when I say PUA is bullshit.

    Why? One of the many reasons is because it does not cut through the noise. For a PUA every woman is a target and, instead of letting women make you know they are available, and let got things so that they happen effortless, they constantly tell guys that “your have to do game, go for the cold approach, improve your game…”

  64. ““I’m a puppy phrenologist.”
    Lol. That goes on my list.”

    I always thought member of the Blue Man Group was funny (or dolphin trainer).

  65. I’m still disturbed by the look of Arnold’s mistress. Maybe it was an adrenaline rush thing? Maybe they’d do it in the bedroom while Maria was in the shower.

    “Come heya. Get awn all faws, she’s in the showa….”

    ? That’s all I’ve got…

  66. Finishing up the first thought above…another funny one might be
    “I study alchemy”
    (or perhaps “I’m an Alchemist”)

  67. @zdr01dz
    “I disagree. Strength, wealth, fame. etc. etc. IS fitness. Those things make life better. Game isn’t fitness. Game is the sales pitch. A man needs both.

    I think this confuses the AF/BB responses. I’ll take a stab at atomizing them a sec for clarity’s sake, because I think Tillikum and YaReally have an important point here.

    From an older comment of mine about alpha vs beta: “But women have different relationships with them. To women, betas are friends, helpers, co-workers, employees, servants; unless related by blood, they are practical beings only. There is no romance to them. They are useful, fun, maybe even someone to be a little affectionate toward so long as they remain useful, but they have no deeper self, no soul, no mystical thing to bind to.

    Alphas are something else entirely. They are actually people – people drenched with desire, romance, spirit. Him, she can respect. In greater cases even worship. It matters little how well he performs objectively, so long as he does nothing to make her doubt her assessment of him as alpha. If he does perform, she admires and praises his performance – but she’s doing that about something or another regardless, even if she’s gushing about how he bought her a bag of skittles.”

    So what makes the difference? It’s not money, resources, a ‘good personality,’ or anything on that spectrum. Those things merely make it more practical for a woman to be in a relationship with a man. More of her needs are met, more problems solved or avoided, more social approval for being with him.

    The ‘alpha’ side of things is a fundamentally impractical dynamic. This is romance, fire, spirit, passion – what women feel as an emotional connection to the man. It arises from a man’s power over, and contentment with, his own self – from his ability to be confident in his choices, desires, and circumstances whatever they may be. A man like this might have plans, but he fundamentally lives in the moment, no apologies ever given for being who he is.

    I think that’s what they mean by being self-actualized.

    Do you need both? Yes, ideally. Alpha is sufficient to light a fire in a woman’s eyes, but she still won’t fuck you if her friends would look down on her for it, lol. She needs a way to justify it, and you having the trappings of a good life can do that. And, in an LTR, any passion might wear thin if fucking you for two hours a day comes with living in a rotting shack the other 22.

  68. @Liz

    Ha, I’d use the alchemist one except I’m already at slight risk of seeming nerdy. It’s better for guys like me to de-emphasize anything that smacks of lore in order to avoid the brain-preening I was talking about earlier.

    Be great coming from some huge lunk though.

    I just tell ’em I’m an underwater welder. That can go a lot of ways.

    @Sun

    ‘Puppy phrenologist’ is pretty funny, and probably a decent way to screen for girls who aren’t total idiots.

  69. @Forge the Sky
    Alpha is sufficient to light a fire in a woman’s eyes, but she still won’t fuck you if her friends would look down on her for it, lol. She needs a way to justify it, and you having the trappings of a good life can do that. And, in an LTR, any passion might wear thin if fucking you for two hours a day comes with living in a rotting shack the other 22.

    I think that’s essentially correct.

    http://emptylighthouse.com/sites/default/files/benjy-bronk-bald_0.jpg
    Outside of minor fame Benjy Bronk from the Stern show has nothing going for him. But his Alpha game is strong and this gives him the ability to attract smokin’ hot chicks that would otherwise be far outside his league. But ultimately he is still Benjy Bronk, a fat, pasty weirdo. As his spell fades these girls wake up to the fact that he’s not a value added proposition. That’s why his relationships start hot and then burn out.

  70. This belongs on the Obesity Culture post, but check this out.

    Really? The hamster is strong with this one. Get a load of this:

    http://elitedaily.com/women/stop-accepting-dad-bod/1025403/

    “Stop Accepting the Dad Bod”

    “Men, you simply cannot get away with this. It’s insanity. The fact that we’re glorifying men being pudgy and simultaneously berating women with too-thin madness is disturbing.”

    “There is no standard of sexiness for women equal to this whole dad bod fad. Women are still expected to be thin and bikini ready, aspiring to look like Kate Upton while men are happy looking like Leo DiCaprio or pre-A-list-fame Chris Pratt.

    If we ladies need to kill ourselves to maintain our “hot” bodies so we can be considered desirable, how can we not expect the same from the men we date?

    Ladies! Are we still really that desperate to find a mate? Seriously?!”

  71. @ Softek
    Stop Accepting the Dad Bod

    I can’t disagree with that. The “Dad Bod” is a joke. 95% of chicks are fat and I don’t like that either.

    1. @sluttie

      “but, unless that tall / fit guy can DHV and have social dominance,”

      Being able to say NO is one thing that comes to mind with social dominance . Especially in front of people she knows. Many foreign men do that at dance venues I go to.

      “I never EVER will disclose to women what I do for a living before I’ve banged her a few times.”

      I wouldn’t ethier I would make something up that was so over the top. Such as a astronaut.

      @Forge the sky

      “more social approval for being with him.”

      Those high school days again come back to mind.

      @Sun wukong

      I really miss Dallas a great place to bike through across the country.

  72. “Women are still expected to be thin and bikini ready, aspiring to look like Kate Upton..”

    Kate Upton = “thin”?
    That’s the problem, right there. Kate Upton has a mom bod, but now we call that type of thing “thin and bikini ready” for some reason.

    Forge:
    “I just tell ’em I’m an underwater welder.”
    That’s a good one. 🙂

  73. @zdr01dz

    Ya, alpha impact has a shelf life. You need to keep making it, like money.

    People, even redpillers, always say that passion only lasts so long. But some people seem to be able to keep on reigniting it. Others? They have one fantasy to give a girl, and when it’s gone, it’s gone.

    I’d be interested to hear people’s perspectives on this, it’s something I don’t quite get yet. If you’re a genuinely self-assured, self-actualized man, does attraction just stay organically as an outcome of that? Or do you need to keep changing things up, create new circumstances and emotions and fantasies, in order to keep things going longterm?

    The sort of game Benjy is playing looks kinda dark triad. That fizzles out once you realize there’s nothing underneath the mysterious exterior, there’s no complete man under the silence and the distance. The fantasy evaporates But if there is such a man, a complete and assured man under the fantasy, is that enough for a woman? Or does she need the DT stuff even so?

  74. @ Forge the Sky
    People, even redpillers, always say that passion only lasts so long.

    I can only speak from my own experience but in my relationship it hasn’t worked out that way so far. After 25 years my wife still weighs 115 pounds. She still finds my personality entertaining. She needs me financially and in this economy always will. She cooks me special meals, sits across the table while I eat and drinks a glass of water. Most women aren’t like that and yes she is American. She has an above average IQ of about 120.

    I read a lot about wives that dry up after a few years and the studies back that up. it happens a lot. But for whatever reason that didn’t happen to me. Today the sex is 100% better than our start point.

    I should add that although I’m in shape I’m not a great looking guy. I’m 5’7″. On the flipside she is a very attractive woman. Some research indicates that ugly husband/hot wife is the best matchup for human psychology. That might play a part.

    I think the only reason I read the man-o-sphere is because my sons are just entering the age when they might start having girlfriends. So this topic became interesting again.

  75. “A Prince’s time is valuable. His efforts and attention are gifts he bestows on the woman he’s interested in, and as such that woman’s esteem should be validated by it. She is envied by other women because of the Prince’s interest in her; it confirms there is something about her that sets her apart from other women. Her role becomes one of both humbling gratitude and excited, almost childlike, anticipations of him.”

    …And this, my friends, is why Rollo beats everyone else in the Manosphere. When I read this paragraph, a smile as big as Texas spread across my face and won’t leave. …A year ago I was going through hell…but after a year of red pill living, I am literally living this paragraph at the moment. After discovering Rational Male, I read the 48 laws of Power and lots of other RP lit and gents…this paragraph is the ticket. I have a girl that I couldn’t have gotten at all before. Maybe I could have got her but I couldn’t have kept her, or she would have been a stuck up princess. She is a self-described ball breaker who I can tell has intimidated a lot of men. She was raised in a house with a dominant father and a brother. She grew up in an old school boys club atmosphere. Anything less than full on Alpha is sniffed out and chewed up by her lol. I have her purring like a kitten. She acts like a smitten schoolgirl, giggling and fawning over me. She admires me like a little kid admires their dad or sports hero. She does whatever I say in the bedroom and is eager to please beyond belief. The biggest problem I find myself having is she is so awesome I want to pedestalize her; I have to remind myself I am the prize, not her. I am the prince, she is not the princess. Fellas, if you can internalize the prince frame, your lives will change.

    And what Rollo is talking about is amazingly universal (meaning works on Men, not just women). When I was trying to lose weight and using the fake it til you make strategy of self-confidence, I had this phony arrogance. I was trying to portray confidence but in doing so I gave off this air of bitterness (I can say this because I notice that now, I am actually way more nice by default). See, because I am actually happier and have real self-confidence now, it makes me want to see the best in others and spread it. When I open doors for men or women, they usually sprint to the door once they notice my gesture and always say thank you. Before, I would literally be a dick and let the door slam in someone’s face right behind me (this was an overcorrection of my previous beta behavior or opening doors for everyone. When I opened doors from a beta frame, I came off as a door mat bitch; doing it from an alpha frame I come off as a regal prince who has deigned to honor you by holding this door for you lol).

    I helped a little old lady unload her groceries the other day. No one was with me and no one was watching. I did it because I am in a place mentally where I felt like it. I think this is where the protector/guardian alpha thing comes from. Yesterday I punked this guy who was harassing some ladies behind me in line. The women were unattractive, didn’t speak English, not in my age range and I had nothing to gain by helping them. I didn’t do it to impress them or anyone else. If anything, it was more about this guy irritating me, by me having to hear him harass them with crazy gibberish. I tell of this not to brag, but because once you start to internalize the princely frame, you will be offended more often lol. You will feel a sense of entitlement, a sense that you deserve respect and the best of people because by your mere presence you are endorsing them as cool/worthy. Tonight im gonna tie that chick up and ass fuck her and she is gonna write me 10 text messages the next day telling me how amazing it was. Thanks Rollo.

  76. Rugby, thanks for that link. Generally I am more interested by how an athlete trains for a sport then the sport itself. I found it right interesting.

    No doubt anyone with a decent social life will know men who should be pulling ass but are not. Tall, good looking, etc. Those dudes have bait but no hook. Game can give them that hook

    And some men need to reshape their lives and game can help there too

    However, I still cannot shitcan the idea game is really a substitute for a robust and masculine life. And I mean masculine, unrepentant, unreconstructed raw masculinty and masculine pursuits

  77. @Rollo

    My own proof of it came from turning a 29 year old lawyer working for a financial firm and all about her grrrl power in to a docile school girl simply by my maintaining a solid frame. She wasn’t used to a guy that wouldn’t beg for the pussy. One time out with her even involved a moment where she said “Wait a minute, you’re not a feminist?” “No.” and on to the next subject without a break in frame.

    In the past I might have tried to dance around the subject and failed the shit test. Instead she just followed my lead on to the rest of the conversation and got her brains fucked out later. I just need to find a place with more consistently worthwhile targets now.

  78. @SFC Ton

    However, I still cannot shitcan the idea game is really a substitute for a robust and masculine life. And I mean masculine, unrepentant, unreconstructed raw masculinty and masculine pursuits

    For me developing masculine pursuits has been part of developing Game. I see them as one and the same for me personally.

  79. Re Dad Bod: A women need only get down to about 20% body fat to look pretty good. Even when she was 18 I don’t think Kate Upton was below 22%, now she’s pushing 28.

    The author of the article is bitching about men who are about – 20% body fat.

    I dare her to get down to what she considers the “impossibly thin” standard for women and then get into a Bod Pod. And then double dare her to get down to the 10% of a man (me at the moment) she would no doubt think “could stand to lose a few.”

    “. . . MYG not denying accusations she’s a woman sock-puppeting as a man . . .”

    It has done so, but in a rather feminine insinuation, rather than a masculine statement.

    Q: Have you heard about Vassar men?
    A: There aren’t any! (I have attended and can confirm)

    Yale isn’t Vassar, but it’s trying harder. It can turn boys into girls. I’m still holding out the possibility that its “gender” doesn’t match its sex, that the chick might have a kickstand.

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