In Monday’s post comments there was a lot of back and forth, but in the latter pages there was an interesting exchange I thought might make for an interesting weekend discussion. Commenter Kryptokate resurrected an old feminine social convention I recently covered in Validation Hunting & The Jenny Bahn Epiphany. The premise of this convention is that men seek out, and motivate themselves towards highly attractive women because they enjoy the validation or affirmation they receive from their male peers when they’re seen paired with an HB9 high SMV woman on his arm.
The “arm candy” trope is a useful convention for women in that it assuages her bruised ego and competition anxiety by converting a man’s natural desire for a high SMV woman into a perceived insecurity of his (really all men by association).
Kryprokate:
I’m sticking with my assertion that lots of guys love to show off a hot woman to other guys to gain their respect and increase their status. I’m not saying ALL guys want to do this and maybe you don’t, but lots of them do. I don’t want to “show off” a guy either — I’m an introverted homebody and don’t want a guy for anything but to stay home with, talk, have sex, watch movies, etc. But lots of men love to show off to their peers just like lots (probably most) women do.
Johnnycomelately:
Men don’t seek validation through females, men desire females objectively, tits are tits, don’t matter what the guys thinks. You think men watch porn to get validation?
Women desire to be desired, the process is completely about validation.
Problem with female desire to be desired is that it is not a very high bar to pass, I find it humorous that women brag-splain about getting sex from men.
“Heck, give me ten minutes to download an app and I could get a man to have sex with me in 30 minutes. Nothing to write home about.”
And from the Validation Hunting post:
The idea that men “seek validation” for their earned status or to ‘right’ past wrongs to their egos while they were working their way to that status is a social convention. The Feminine Imperative relies on memes and conventions which shift the ownership of women’s personal liabilities for their sexual strategy to men.
When men are blamed for the negative consequences of women’s sexual strategy it helps to blunt the painful truths that Jenny Bahn is (to her credit) honestly confronting in her article at 30 years old and the SMV balance shifts towards enabling men’s capacity to effect their own sexual strategy.
One of the unique aspects of the Feminine Imperative is its fluid ability to craft social conventions that obscure the worst misgivings of women’s dualistic sexual strategy (Hypergamy) and redirect the liability for them squarely on men’s shoulders. I covered many of these conventions in Operative Social Conventions, but chief among them is the utility of shame.
Shaming features in a majority of feminine social conventions used against men because women are conditioned to fear social ostracization as part of their same-sex peer socialization. Little girls punish each other by ‘not-being-friends-with’ another girl in their peer clutch. Using shame is a skill women learn early in life to effect the ends of their developing solipsism.
If men can be shamed into believing that their natural predisposition toward sexually desiring high SMV, physically ideal specimens of women is due to an insecurity with their personal status the effect would be one of leveling the SMP playing field. “Men only want hot women to feed their egos and impress other men” translates into shaming men (the more desirable men who can merit the attention of a high SMV woman) for being insecure with the perceptions of other men.
This carefully removes any negative association with women’s competitiveness for higher tier men, convinces women themselves that “men are just like that” to Buffer against rejection, and puts the burden of that competition on the man in the hopes that he’ll pair with a woman who is of lower SMV for fear of being shamed about his “insecurity” of wanting other men to see his status as higher than it should be.
Thus, the optimized ends of Hypergamy – a woman pairing with an SMV superior man – are better effected by a social convention.
I should also add that this social convention dovetails with another useful convention that relies on a similar dynamic – that of women complaining men sexually objectify women. The simple truth is that it’s part of men’s neurological firmware to see women’s bodies as objects. It’s a well studied fact that when men see an arousing woman’s semi-nude body it triggers the same area of our brains associated with tool use. Sexual objectification is a feature for men, not a bug.
I’ve gotten into this debate on other forums and comment threads, but it bears repeating. My N-count is a bit more than 40 women, and of those women never did I make an approach (or go along with a woman opening me) with a forethought of wanting to impress my male friends. In fact there were some women I got with I’d rather my friends at the time knew nothing about.
The debate usually spins from there about how men just “do it unconsciously”. That’s an easy fallback, but I’d argue that the limbic and visceral incentive of wanting to sexually experience a smoking hot HB9.5 supersedes any subconscious thought of how good a guy will look when he shows her off to his buddies. I’ve been with strippers, a girl who was in Playboy in the 90’s, and several other women most guys just fantasize about – half the reason I stayed with the BPD girlfriend for so long was because she was just so fucking hot – but not once did I have any thought of brandishing any of them to improve my status with my peers. In fact I preferred we just get after it at her or my place than make any conscious effort on my part to show her off.
This’ll sound facetious, but I’ve never thought of sex as being “validating” or ego-affirming. I honestly think a lot of that expectation comes from a feminized conditioning about “how sex should be” for men. I was, and still kind of am, more into sex as experience. It’s always been something fun to enjoy with a woman for me, not some meaningful act of cosmic significance. I’ve had sex with women I loved and women I didn’t, some were memorable, some were…meh. Even in my bluest of blue pill days my ‘validation’ came from other sources, not sex.
So the question for the weekend is this, as a man, do you give any headspace at all to considering how your status might improve with other men if you’re seen with a hot woman?
When you see a guy who’s physically an obvious 1-2 SMV degrees lower than the woman he’s with, do you think any better of him or do you presume the imbalance is due to some other external factor (such as wealth or fame)?
Do you see the method behind the madness of shaming-down apex Men in order to better optimize Hypergamy for “lesser” SMV women?
[…] Arm Candy […]
I’ll admit it, I like being seen in public with a girl my friends will be jealous of.
That’s not a factor in if I’ll approach or pursue. Pretty much the only thing that influences that decision is hotness. But some vapid HB9 cum repository with a bitchy attitude and barely enough functioning neurons to form a sentence? I really don’t want anyone to know I’m hitting that.
women are hypergamous – men are lowergamous
complimentary opposites
“do you give any headspace at all to considering how your status might improve with other men if you’re seen with a hot woman?”
No. But I give headspace to the fact that been seen with a non-hot woman decreases my value for other women.
“1-2 SMV degrees lower than the woman he’s with, do you think any better of him”
When this happens the woman is usually treating the guy like shit, so I feel pity.
“Do you see the method”
Half projection, half agenda.
tagging
took me a minute, but no, i give _zero_ headspace to what other men think of my girls. and i think no better or worse of my friends based on their girls’ looks. i do think better or worse of them based on their girls’ behaviors though.
Men like attractive women, but I don’t think they are really all THAT picky about it! I think it’s a matter of threshold. I think 7 and up is enough to please even the highest SMV man providing the woman is a perfect fit personality wise and is accommodating, kind, loyal, etc. Over and over I have seen the most desirable men pick good looking but not gorgeous wives. I think this is because the most attractive women are often huge pains in the asses, and guys who naturally attract women (confident, busy ones with personal missions) don’t want to… Read more »
Oh and one more thing. I can only speak for myself, but when I use the term validation, I am not necessarily using it to mean external (from other men) validation. I just mean that men who struggle getting women for a big chunk of their lives often attach being able to do so with success, and therefore will seek to achieve it in order to validate themselves, perhaps to themselves alone. Men who have not had to struggle much don’t build that deep association, they more take it for granted.
Interesting article. It sounds like there is potential for the “arm candy” theory to become self-fulfilling, as guys buy into the premise and look for validation through what they are told is validating.
At the same time, I also feel there is some truth to the notion that many men have egos which they seek to bolster through material status symbols, including money, cars, clothing, and women. Is calling out this behavior any more shaming than calling out hypergamous practices?
I think that if I spent any time worrying about how my fellow men/brothers/colleagues think of me based on the women I have around me, I would have already shot up a school a long time ago much as Elliot Roger did. That should tell you a lot about me actually, but it should also tell women that such thoughts or obsessions in the minds of men are so rare as to be a sign of mental illness. When I see a guy with a woman 1-2+ higher than him on the SMV, I usually think that he’s in for… Read more »
I would assume that I was missing something, and that despite any perceived imbalance, he did have the advantage. Of course, that all depends on attitudes, and who appears in control. The only space for a man to worry about the status effects of a woman he is with is at the point in his career where a spouse is necessary for negotiating the business politics and for networking with the other wives. Even then, the matter is less one of her attractiveness–although that does matter to the women with whom she is interacting–and more of loyalty and utility. He… Read more »
I concur that most men do not seek validation from other men by displaying eye candy on their arm. But the inverse is true. I think most men are embarrassed being seen with a woman significantly below the man’s SMV. My ex wife was a solid 7 when we married. She then packed on the weight and looked awful. I was ashamed to be seen with her. It made me feel like a loser, as if I didn’t already feel bad enough that she was supposed to be my sole source of sexual pleasure. I’ve seen the guys at the… Read more »
Rollo, For me, status is an important consideration for DATING, but never sex. Sexual desire can come in many forms, sometimes not with somebody you’d like to seriously date. MANY girls fall into the “Do-able but not Date-able” category for me. Arm candy is a huge reason why I wouldn’t seriously date a below average girl, or average looking girl. Having a hot girl with you that’s into you just further affirms how much you are the man at any venue you enter. The bar, the casino, the party, the gathering, the whatever. I like when other guys look at… Read more »
[…] Arm Candy […]
So the question for the weekend is this, as a man, do you give any headspace at all to considering how your status might improve with other men if you’re seen with a hot woman? In my profession, it’s good to bring a hottie to firm events, and eventually to be married to a hottie (for her age, after having given you 4 children), but the feminists are wrong to say men ONLY want a hot girl to impress other men or improve status. First and foremost I want to be with a hottie 100% because it’s ingrained in my… Read more »
I agree – the goal is almost never validation from other men. But internal validation? The validation of having achieved success and the rewards thereof? Yes, I think that’s part of it.
Hi Rollo
Can you point me to those studies regarding “men’s neurological firmware to see women’s bodies as objects”?
And another great post!
A
@amit, there are several, but:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/02/19/women.bikinis.objects/index.html?_s=PM:HEALTH
@Jeremy, Male success all seems to hinge on internal validation. Women seem to hinge almost entirely on external validation. I have objects I have carefully crafted and created sitting around me right now. The main reason I have put up pictures of them on other forums is to get advice on how to get better. I don’t need external validation that I have done well. I always notice that the women who also do this always make a point to let everyone know that they are women. So that everyone knows to focus on the person behind the work and… Read more »
I love arm candy! I’m not above admitting it! Of course during sex, it’s only about how I feel. But in public, I’d be a liar to say getting props didn’t feel nice. And yes, perhaps it makes up for being unpopular way back in middle school.
Also if any woman ever starts improving herself (losing weight for example) it pretty much means whatever boyfriend/husband she is is gone. Unless he has been running some harsh dread game on her. Otherwise it means that she knows that at, say, 150 pounds he will stay with her and still put her on a pedestal. So when she gets down to 110 pounds she knows that she is now above him and she becomes very insecure. Almost sad. She no longer enjoys sex even though it is exactly the same sex. And she is now open to branch swing.… Read more »
Perhaps I should have cheated on my wife when she was pregnant? Or rather then being the doting loving supportive husband I should have told her that the fat she gained made her unattractive and put dread into her. Once she lost that baby fat? She no longer enjoyed sex with me. She knew I would love her and adore her even when she was fat. Made me a lesser man in her eyes.
@StringsofCoins
I am reasonably certain it’s internal validation for everyone, perhaps just different strategies to achieve it.
I’m sick of this shit from the cultural narrative. Women objectify themselves and one another. Walk through the main floor of any major department store and it’s ALL for women to artificially “enhance” their looks. Why? Because they need to get men to do shit for them. It’s not male pressure and “beuaty standards”, that is an attempt to twist reality 180 degrees into a shaming tactic. It’s their own intrasexual arms race. I don’t give a shit about any of that.. I’d rather a real, healthy woman in a simple, not-too-revealing outfit, little to no makeup covering her glowing… Read more »
Agree with Mike. High status women don’t bang total losers. Their hypergamous instincts are usually spot on when it comes to weeding out insecurity and weakness. Therefore, if you are sexing a 8-10 it must mean you’re doing at least something right.
After having slept with more than my share of women, I tend to look more for the women who I think will blow my mind in bed. I feel like sometimes my attraction for hot women disappoints when we’re in bed and she just can’t perform. But its still there that desire for hot women, and yeah I think alot of men enjoy having a hot woman and occasionally showing her off..but thats a side issue, nowhere near the primary reason for dating a woman. Of course then there is the possibility of using her as bait to snare other… Read more »
Id say for me its not validation but more related to status. When I am with a HB9 I can tell my male friends have envy and more respect, it derives more confidence in myself. When females see me, even more confidence via pre-selection, I see it as purely increasing my overall inner strength. I am already very confident, so having arm candy just solidifies and at times evens boosts what I have. Now having a anything below HB6 as arm candy has the opposite effect.
Also shout out to @Yohami, used to check out your site back in the day.
Q1. So the question for the weekend is this, as a man, do you give any headspace at all to considering how your status might improve with other men if you’re seen with a hot woman? A1. Nope. Actually if with a specifically hot woman, I probably don’t want to be seen by others. In contrast, having a specifically “quality” (with or without hotness) woman definitely helps social standing (competently arranging parties, etc) but only as a threshold. Q2. When you see a guy who’s physically an obvious 1-2 SMV degrees lower than the woman he’s with, do you think… Read more »
It also sounds like a sort of attempt at defacing the status of high SMV and MMV men. I actually know a guy who will date any woman who looks a certain, specific way because that’s all he wants: the status symbol. He doesn’t care if he’s having sex with her, if she’s having sex with anyone else or even if she’s completely insane, as long as she looks the part and smiles and holds onto his arm in public. He has openly said as much and his relationships all go exactly as you’d expect them to. What these women… Read more »
Yohami knocks it out of the park. “No. But I give headspace to the fact that been seen with a non-hot woman decreases my value for other women.”
Yeppers.
Being seen with a hot woman would mostly have value in getting more hot women. Probably only comes into play with guys if you are trying to con them into something, and of course you don’t want to embarrass yourself
TO me the TL:DR is:
A man doesn’t get with a hot woman to show her off to friends or up his status.
A man gets with a hot woman because he likes fucking her.
A man stays with that hot woman because he wants to keep fucking her.
A man considers marrying that hot woman because he doesn’t want anyone else fucking her.
This is one of those situations which, in my mind, translates to, ‘porque no los dos?’ There is most definitely the base level of desire for the woman’s body that leads to these men being seen with highly attractive women, and indeed that is what leads into that image that they use to propel themselves up the hierarchy they are a part of. That hotness is what attracts other men to that woman that he’s with, and the fact that she’s with him and therefore not with them puts him in a place of desirability in the hierarchy. Ambitious men… Read more »
So the question for the weekend is this, as a man, do you give any headspace at all to considering how your status might improve with other men if you’re seen with a hot woman? Yes and no but it is or was never my primary consideration when hooking up with a woman. Hot chicks come with as many liabilities as they do assets in terms of social capital amongst men. Introduce a hot babe into a cadre of men and they can cause more problems then positives for sure. Plus if your frame is rattled dealing with hot chick… Read more »
In my biz I often attend high roller fundraiser events w such couples. And I have wondered how that relationship works. I would agree, I don’t think it’s because the man is seeking to up his status, he has that girl because of having status already. He has her because he can. She is attracted to his status, connections, lifestyle, etc. I wonder if it bothers these guys to think if they lost it all they would likely lose her too? That she probably loves what he has rather than him? Or maybe that’s female projection? And I wonder do… Read more »
Real rap here, to any women reading this.
The reason you were able to get married is because your husband liked fucking you, wanted to continue fucking you and didn’t want anyone else to fuck you.
If a man breaks up with you, it’s because he didn’t get to fuck you, doesn’t want to fuck you, already got to fuck you and doesn’t want to continue doing so, or doesn’t care if other men fuck you.
@YOHAMI “do you give any headspace at all to considering how your status might improve with other men if you’re seen with a hot woman?” No. But I give headspace to the fact that been seen with a non-hot woman decreases my value for other women. Abso-fucking-lutely. As I explained to kate on that thread, men want a hot woman on their arm because 1) she’s hot so she passes the boner test and 2) for pre-selection by other women. It’s entirely about getting laid. Period. She isn’t the source of his status, she’s the result of it. Women want… Read more »
“I don’t give a shit about any of that.. I’d rather a real, healthy woman in a simple, not-too-revealing outfit, little to no makeup covering her glowing skin and lustrous hair – which comes from a good diet, not starving – with, and this is crucial – a pleasant demeanour…. over some cyborg bitch in a luxury brand-name getup, tattooed eyeliner, botoxed rictus, fake tits, etc with an attitude to match. I see these women and I think: why??? they look like robot clowns set to bitch mode . who are they going to these comical lengths for? Act bitchy… Read more »
Rollo, I think you are on the mark and off the mark at the same time on this one. I’ve banged some fatties in my time and would be embarrassed to both men and other women if I was seen in public with them. You are correct in asserting that is has never been a first thought. I’ve never approached a woman and though “wow, this would totally validate me to friends and other chicks.” However, about 5 seconds after I dump a load in a chick, my next thought is whether I am going to send her home in… Read more »
The simplest answer is usually the correct one: simple projection. Women get validation from being with high value men and love showing them off to their friends, so they project this behavior onto men. Women are defined by the man they’re with, so they imagine men feel the same way about the woman they’re with.
Also I think the h 10 arm candy is the one at risk, she is easily replaced by a high status man. Maybe these women think they can get him to marry them then take him to the cleaners but rich guys aren’t stupid. He’s gonna lawyer up and lock it down. She’d be lucky to go the long game in this scenario, not him. Her looks don’t trump his $$$ power. If people shame him for wanting arm candy why don’t they shame her for being it? Who’s “winning” here in the photo above? She looks scared as hell… Read more »
@marriedalpha I’ve banged some fatties in my time and would be embarrassed to both men and other women if I was seen in public with them. Keywords: “banged some fatties” You never sought anything other than sex from the fatties. You never attempted to put them on your arm. You a priori understood that as far as validation goes, those woman might be a drag on your image. However, they did have something to offer as far as internal validation. As a result, they were only an easy lay. So basically, while you were not seeking to improve your status… Read more »
Nope. All-male groups have intense, early, and complete initiation in which a new member must prove himself. Whether by skill on the soccer field or fortitude in a military barrack, men quickly determine their comparative ranks — and then tend to happily accept that, since we are used to being gears in a bigger machine. All-female groups are the opposite. Constant need to prove oneself, often for years. Consider two church fund-raisers. The first is run by guys. Perhaps a barbecue or something. A new member wants to join the committee. They invite him go to lunch together, and then… Read more »
Also I am not a hb10 by any means, I’d say a 7. I think these two men (both very intelligent skilled self made men) were attracted to my 1.) being younger and also 2.) able to hold and follow interesting conversation and 3.) I think they admired my biz and wanted to support it. Or maybe they just wanted to hang me. In any case, I’ll never know… Most of the men in this category that I know are 1.) married to their 1st wife and either are faithful or they keep a quiet piece on the side but… Read more »
BTW, is that girl in the picture famous? If so, what exactly happened to her arm? That’s a huge scar to be on a woman so attractive. Doesn’t seem right that someone botched her bicep implant surgery so badly.
Never once thought about my friend’s approval or otherwise, of the women I was banging. However two experiences do resonate. The first is that when I was with my second wife (smoking hot 8, unfortunately Borderline Personality Disorder and eventually borderline psychotic) lots of men wanted to know how hot she was in bed. At that point it was obvious that she was Arm Candy, at least to them. My second experience was with a friend, a natural Alpha, in England we call such a guy “a serial shagger”. His tastes are very conventional, mainstream blondes pretty much 100% of… Read more »
This is being played as whether men use high SMV women to signal status to other men. I’ve never cared what other men think. The closest I’ve ever gotten to this is liking being seen with several hot women just because of the pre-selection value and as a way of triggering female competition. Women thinking men want to be seen with hotties by other men has to be projection.
To put it more succintly: men use status to get good looking women. Women use good looks to get status from men.
I think part of this goes back to men having the Hunger (the Thirst) and women really don’t. And all the usual complaints from women about being objectified, same thing. It makes perfect sense for a man to say “I really do like the hamburger, even better than the high-priced steak sometimes. But when I want a steak, I want a steak.” It’s a girlish thing to take pictures of your food to make others jealous.
From the wisdom of Wukong: “To put it more succintly: men use status to get good looking women. Women use good looks to get status from men.”
Yep.
I (male 29 years old) have never devoted any head-space at all to the notion of another man’s SMV being higher because of his arm candy, and I have never imagined that another man would perceive me as having a higher SMV because of my arm candy (I do think, however, it is obvious that arm candy will certainly change a woman’s perspective of a man’s SMV.) I have heard some people allude to the fact that, instead of using arm candy to acquire validation from others, they are likely using arm candy to prove to THEMSELVES that they have… Read more »
deti throws down some real rap. Could be set to some beatz.
@superslaviswife, re: “He doesn’t care if he’s having sex with her”
And this is a “he”?
———— “Do you give any headspace at all to considering how your status might improve with other men if you’re seen with a hot woman?” — No. ———— “When you see a guy who’s physically an obvious 1-2 SMV degrees lower than the woman he’s with, do you think any better of him or do you presume the imbalance is due to some other external factor (such as wealth or fame)?” — Wealth, unless I recognize him, then fame. Years ago I had a high end sports car for a weekend (6 figure price). I was standing by the parked… Read more »
Men hire escorts as arm candy because they need the social proof any way they can get it, and they have the money to throw at it. Those women are purely acting as hired-guns of social-proof. If you’re an elite man, you can’t be seen without some form of arm candy, or it actually looks bad on you.
Those women are in no way contributing to that man’s status, they are simply there as ornamentation on an existing Rolls Royce that would look bad without the ornamentation.
Is that metaphor too strong?
fopdespot,says “Do I care whether or not the woman I’m with raises my social status? Not really, at the moment I suppose I don’t have the game to be pulling 8-9’s. I have worried in the past about the girls I’m with not being cute enough and the people I associate with judging me for it, though that’s certainly something I’m sure every guy has gone through.” Which makes me wonder now. Besides just projection by women about status, is there also apex fallacy involved? If a guy is a 9, say, and he doesn’t want to lower himself by… Read more »
I could care less what men think of an attractive woman I’m with. If anything I don’t want to parade her around because I know how thirsty and backstabbing guys can be to get some ass. Having every guy you pass leering at your date isn’t exactly enjoyable. Nick Krauser’s recent memoir has a money quote along the lines of “never trust a guy who isn’t getting laid”. That covers most men, right? The validation I get from a hot girl is her wanting to be with me. A tiny minority of guys might like showing off arm candy, but… Read more »
@myrealitie, re: “I just mean that men who struggle getting [steaks] for a big chunk of their lives often attach being able to do so with [good eatin’], and therefore will seek to achieve [steaks] in order to [eat them], perhaps to themselves alone. Men who have not had to struggle much don’t [put up with bad eatin’], they more take [good eatin’] for granted.”
@TheRedBill This seams plausible to me, however, if this is the only reason for arm candy, why do men hire escorts for the sole purpose of having arm candy? Certainly this would not provide any kind of internal validation, but we do see this scenario occur. Why? I don’t know. A valid question, and one I will try to answer from my brushes with the part of society where that happens. Guys usually have arm candy for social events that are related to the maintenance of their own status. It’s essentially part of their job to show up at these… Read more »
@jeremy
The girl is Padma Lakshmi, was married to Salman Rushdie for some time. Her wiki entry states a car crash caused the scar. Read into it and you’ll see that even at her age she has AF/BB working for her.
Seething Lurker also concurs that the status effect is one-way. “I think most men are embarrassed being seen with a woman significantly below the man’s SMV.”
@Ra Sputin
Whoa, Padma hit the wall. Glad the scar on her arm wasn’t worse, but she is clearly on the downward slope now 🙁
@Jeremy
No shit to that. I’d be hard-pressed to rate her a 5.
@Bloom, re: “I don’t think it’s because the man is seeking to up his status, he has that girl because of having status already.” Yes. re: “And I wonder do these gals miss true love and attraction?” A leading question. Do you mean do the hot women miss having the feeling of true love and true attraction to their high-status men? I think a man’s dominance via status can certainly induce feelings in her of true attraction towards him. Or do you mean that since he leveraged his status then he is objectifying her and hence *he* won’t be feeling… Read more »
re: WAGS
Has anyone ever actually believed that the reason a $10M basketball player spent a fortune on a hot babe was so his friends would high-five him?
Interestingly, maybe, I think women use greater betas as their arm candy, to show off to other women. Just like their purses and their shoes. “Where did you get your man? I need me one too!”
This post is arguing against a straw man because I NEVER said, nor even remotely implied, that “Men only want hot women to feed their egos and impress other men”. You added the only in there, Rollo. OF COURSE MEN LIKE HOT WOMEN BECAUSE THEY WANT TO FUCK THEM. Seriously, who would argue that? I never said anything to even remotely question that. However, they can ALSO like the envy, admiration, and social status they get from showing off the hot chick as a status object. These things are not even slightly mutually exclusive. I can enjoy driving my hot,… Read more »
@Kryptokate, my intent here isn’t to run you up the flagpole personally, just to explore a social convention (and one I’ve covered before), but, you did write this, so I’ll add it to the discussion: Men absolutely enjoy social validation and the experience of social status just as much as women. Apex alphas *think* that they don’t but that’s only because they have the privilege of not having to be self-aware…they don’t think about social status because they already have it, and they simply expect and feel entitled to social validation and supplication everywhere they go. I dated a basketball… Read more »
Clearly she wasn’t just for show purposes …
“Lakshmi, 41, had told Dell that she hoped Forstmann would prove to be Krishna’s biological father.”
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/billionaire-teddy-forstmann-left-big-trust-fund-2-year-old-daughter-padma-lakshmi-article-1.1027848
@Seething Lurker “But the inverse is true. I think most men are embarrassed being seen with a woman significantly below the man’s SMV” I think even then, the external validation is just a small piece of the pie.Endless rolls of fat and a double chin are horribly demoralizing, especially when you can’t escape them. It’s like being locked into a really, really expensive lease for a really, really crappy car, but worse, because it operates on a more fundamental (emotional) level. @D-Man “Fashion models? They look like adolescent boys. Straight men are not trying to make women live up to… Read more »
@jf12
Peering deeper… if the reason Tiger Woods was seeking out hot women to improve his status, why did he keep it a secret for so long? Why wouldn’t all his friends and the entire public know about his success with women? It is entirely self-defeating for a man to keep his liasons a secret if his purpose with women is to improve his status by finding a more attractive one.
@jf12 I mean does she miss feeling love for him? Or maybe that’s a mia assumption to think they don’t.
As for why men hire hb9+ escorts, again bc they can. They have the means. Why wouldn’t they expect “quality” for their $$$? Why would anyone pay an unattractive woman to be their escort?
No status-building in it for me. I realized just now that it’s bullshit. It’s a matter of very individual, personal preference and choice what kind of woman I spend time. Doing otherwise seems feminine to me when I think about it now. We men do not compete via women the way women do via men.
“During Lakshmi and Forstmann’s time together, Lakshmi gave birth to a baby girl, Krishna Thea Lakshmi. At first, Lakshmi was unclear as to the identity of the father. It was later revealed that Adam Dell was the father.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_J._Forstmann#Personal_life
“Lakshmi dated Princess Diana’s ex, financier Theodore ‘Teddy’ Forstmann until his death in November 2011. He left an undisclosed sum of money in a trust fund for her daughter, Krishna.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padma_Lakshmi#Personal_life
re: trophy hunting
When a man displays his Major Award, it is a reminder to him of the success of his effort.
Maybe when a woman displays her YouRock! appreciation award, it is a reminder to her that someone thought highly of her.
@Bloom, re: “Or maybe that’s a mia assumption to think they don’t.”
I think maybe. Naturally there are some obvious golddiggers and statusdiggers, but I do think/know that if the men themselves have already turned their gold/status/etc ( maybe not reaching too far, massive intellects) into dominance with a woman then she could easily be attracted to his dominance directly.
Physical dominance is important because it allows the dominator to impose his will physically upon the dominatee; genderizing now, he can force her to do physical stuff. And all other forms of dominance, as Ton has taught, are proxies for physical violence, but the point I want to emphasize is that for dominance these proxies are quite equivalent. The evil Beltway bandit who can make 100 villagers disappear with a curl of his lip will have hot babes scrubbing his toilets, gladly, regardless of whether he worked out at the gym that week. Physical beauty is another matter. It’s quite… Read more »
It’s projection. I’ve slowly come to realize that women project what they do/feel onto men. It’s like your treatise on how men love altruistically and women love opportunistically, which is why men project altruistic love onto women.
I think most women get more pleasure from what their friends, family, enemies think of what a man is than they do from actually being with the man. Hence their projecting that men go for hot young things to impress their peers. It is what women do.
I m perfectly fine with keeping a girl to myself why would you show her other wolfs,
Also, the tortured convolutions y’all are going through to try to explicate being worried about decreasing your status (being seen with a non-hot woman) versus increasing/maintaining status (being seen with a hot woman) prove that you’re wrong on this one. Something is either associated with status or it is not. The appearance of the woman on your arm can’t decrease your status unless her appearance is linked to your status in the first place. If you would be embarrassed to be seen with a fat ugly old chick, then you’ve laid this bare. It’s the same thing. You’re just not… Read more »
Pretty much every gf/wife I’ve ever had is +1-2 SMV. I can speak to what goes with that territory: 1. Much mate guarding. 2. Constant possibility of dread, depending on the chick. 3. Maintenance. 4. Great frequent Nookie. 5. ‘Some’ satisfaction from envy/respect/admiration from other guys. The only reason to put up with 1, 2 and 3 is for 4. 5 is just a byproduct of the effort. I did it all for the nookie. It was frequent because I made no secret that’s what I wanted. There is an arm-candy passive positive effect, but it doesn’t enter the mind… Read more »
Yeah. When I see a hot woman I want to use my tool.
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Back when I was more actively spinning plates, I got from a number of guys, “How did you get HER?” I never had an answer. Since I started reading the manosphere I found out. I project dominance. Learned it from my first GF at age 18. Back in ’62. She taught me the rudiments of Game.
Its simple the validation is the side kick the ego boost & excitement comes from getting a hot babe not from envy it will produce!
Yes if other women notice u more that pumps u up more than anything
re: scientists/engineers vs physically dominant males Let the cage match begin! Admittedly I have spent approximately zero time in the company of truly physically dominant males. I think they scared … One time about 30 years ago I happened to be in a restaurant, double dating with a fellow engineer and his wife. It was a cheap but good all-the-pasta-you-can-eat Italian place in Dallas. We were laughing and cutting up when in barged Hulk Hogan, who was maybe at his giganticest at the time. He was massive, and had no entourage. He disappeared a large chair sitting in it backwards,… Read more »
@KK, re: “Most regular people simply don’t see the point and likely don’t care. ”
I thought you were arguing that alpha males were the ones that didn’t care, and that us betas were slobbering to hold your hot hand so the other guys would high five our other hands.
The reason I made that comment about the basketball player is to point out that he was very dependent on the regular validation he got from his status, he was just unaware of that fact because he felt so entitled to it. In his mind, he didn’t give a shit about one anyone else thought of him, ever. Easy to not care what anyone else thinks of you when you’re 6’5″ and 230 lbs of pure muscle. But this was a delusion because the reason he THOUGHT he didn’t care what anyone thought of him is because everyone treated him… Read more »
re: rage
I have known more than a few, men and women, who suffer from (make others suffer from …) the narcissistic rage. But supposedly it’s due to an inferiority complex.
In contrast, more of those I consider peers exhibit the rage to master. Which we can chalk up to a superiority complex …
Its harder to rate men on a 1 to 10 scale then women especially if the man is not fat and above average height. So determining a 2 point difference in looks wouldn’t mean that much. Also, there is a 1 or 2 point swing in looks ratings. One man’s 8 could be another man’s 7 or even a six. (I put two points at the max of legitimate looks score.) And of course clothes and makeup can make a big difference. Put a 6 in a sexy dress and heels and she can look very hot. The same with… Read more »
re: “The appearance of the woman on your arm can’t decrease your status unless her appearance is linked to your status in the first place.”
Nonsense. You’re making a virtual argument with unconnected dots. A linguistically equivalent counterexample suffices to dispel your illusion.
The heaviness of the load of gravel in the bed of your truck can’t decrease your speed unless the heaviness is linked to your speed.
From this banality you pretend to conclude that gravel, or antigravel or something, is fuel.
@Kryptokate Something is either associated with status or it is not… Association is not causation. Women seek high status males because being attached to high status males causes high status for them. It is a sufficient and necessary condition to improve a woman’s status. This is why women dream of marrying princes because it automatically makes them a princess. Men do not seek attractive women for anything other than sex. Having a hot girlfriend can not possibly cause my status to change. Men would never marry a queen for the purposes of becoming a king… because it just doesn’t work… Read more »
@ Mike
I love the respect that comes with having what every guy wants.
I love being what every girl wants. Heh.
great wiyh Rushdie
Be an idendity. Find out who you are.
https://biggerbaddergentleman.wordpress.com/2015/01/23/how-to-find-out-who-you-are/
Do you see the method behind the madness of shaming-down apex Men in order to better optimize Hypergamy for “lesser” SMV women? Yes. And.. “So the question for the weekend is this, as a man, do you give any headspace at all to considering how your status might improve with other men if you’re seen with a hot woman?” No. I think for men it’s basically, “Wow, I would like to tap that!”, or, “Damn, body of a goddess face from hell….still tap it though!”, or, “Hell no!” It’s always whether we’d bang the girl first…everything else comes a distant… Read more »
re: twu wuv etc. It’s common knowledge around these parts that when women *think* a man is richer then they will report having better sexual experiences with him. Is the same true of all the other forms of nonphysical dominance too? The squealing and fainting at the Beatles makes me think so. So, given the centrality of sexuality to love etc, I’m certain that proxies for physical dominance work just fine in making a man more sexually attractive. In contrast, although I’m certain it can happen, I think that it is rare for proxies for a woman’s physical beauty to… Read more »
Kryptokate – SOME people have ambitious, social striving, power hungry, extroverted type personalities and tend to care A LOT about status symbols and that absolutely includes women. Some people have extra chromosomes. Some people are deaf mutes. Some people are materialists. Some people think pork is unclean. Some people…. So what? By your logic Bill Gates loses status for his wife’s less than model appearance. So would Stephen King or Bill Clinton. But they won’t lose status amongst men because who they fuck doesn’t effect their core competences, income levels, or work product. If you want to see a man… Read more »
“You care about status! You’re so beta!”
“You don’t care about status! You’re so beta!”
Mike wrote:
“I love being the center of attention, of love being envied. I love the respect that comes with having what every guy wants.”
Actually, it draws disrespect from other men.
As stringsofcoins said:
“And when I see a man 1-2 points of SMV below his woman I think she’s cheating on him. Then if she’s hot enough I think about how I would run game on her when he walks away.”
“as a man, do you give any headspace at all to considering how your status might improve with other men if you’re seen with a hot woman?” The dynamic is there, but it is not the motivation. “When you see a guy who’s physically an obvious 1-2 SMV degrees lower than the woman he’s with, do you think any better of him or do you presume the imbalance is due to some other external factor (such as wealth or fame)?” some other external factor such as wealth or fame “Do you see the method behind the madness of shaming-down apex… Read more »
So the question for the weekend is this, as a man, do you give any headspace at all to considering how your status might improve with other men if you’re seen with a hot woman? I have to admit that on some level yes. If I was married to someone like Joy Behar I might feel less secure at get-togethers. On some level it would be a hit. http://i.dlisted.com/files/joyquittingtheview.jpg BTW since that last thread is dead here is my final chick rating. Hula Hoop girl’s body = HB8 She is in great shape, I can’t go lower. Remi Lacroix +… Read more »
@jf12 – “Nonsense. You’re making a virtual argument with unconnected dots. A linguistically equivalent counterexample suffices to dispel your illusion. The heaviness of the load of gravel in the bed of your truck can’t decrease your speed unless the heaviness is linked to your speed. From this banality you pretend to conclude that gravel, or antigravel or something, is fuel.” I’m on the floor!!! I’m framing that! Supreme ownage…. Just a thought…you’ll find strong clusters/associations/gatherings of women with high status men/husbands, e.g. WAGS etc…BUT, do you find clusters/associations/gatherings of men with high status/SMV/Hot women? Men don’t seek status, men are… Read more »
@ Jeremy You are correct but this is a matter of economics and demographics, not biology. People are aroused by and want to have sex with people based almost entirely on physical attraction. I.e. women want to have sex with built, physically dominant goodlooking guys and men want to have sex with pretty women. But people will MARRY for status and wealth. It is true that 95% of the time it’s women who do this, not men, but that’s only because for most of history, women had no wealth (and thus no status or power) of their own, so of… Read more »
Krypto, are you a natural born woman? if yes, have you ever had your chromosomas checked?
Lets just clear this up, women will decide who they’ll marry based on status and wealth, not “people”.
If a woman is smoking hot and good in bed, men will marry her if she’s a sandwich artist at Subway, an heiress to a fortune or a psychotic BPD.
A really hot chick isn’t going to improve my status. But a really unattractive woman… yeah… on some level my status might drop a few points.
http://www.dailyhiit.com/hiit-blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/divers-pose-2982-e1419869511981.jpg
@ Yohami. Lol. Yes to the first question, no to the second. I do get told by guys all the time that I’m a dude in a woman’s body, or that I’m emotionless and overly logical. But I’m pretty sure my chromosomes are perfectly normal. My dad is a scientist and my mom was pretty cerebral as well so I think I just have a brain that skews towards the extreme of systemizing. This is likely why I’m fascinated by the topic of gender relations because my natural inclinations are more sympathetic to what is stereotypically “male” but I still… Read more »