Game, for lack of a better word, is good. Game is right. Game works.
After listening to myself on this weekend’s interview with Christian McQueen and Dagonet I realized that as I became more comfortable with the interview I found myself verbally ‘dialoging’ in much the same way that I scribble down fragments of ideas in my notebook or when I’m fleshing out a draft for some topic I’m considering in-post.
It’s always been a strange sensation for me to hear myself speak. Even when I record a voice message on my iPhone it always makes me self-conscious to listen to the message play back. However, as I was in the midst of listening to myself on the show I had the same familiar internal conversation and I picked up on a thought I had planned to write about, but I think it slipped my mind until now.
Towards the middle of our conversation I considered a few things about the benefits of Game, and it made me think about how Game has progressed to what it is today. One of the chapters in The Rational Male I specifically wrote for the book – and later converted to a blog post – was called The Evolution of Game. I added this as an effort to help uninitiated men have a better grasp of just what Game really is.
There’s been a lot of redefining of exactly what Game is over the past 12-13 years, but I’ve always considered Game an abstract term for a much larger concept.
Naturally, critics predisposed to a blue pill worldview want to portray “those red pill game guys” as throwbacks to the PUA set of the early 2000’s. This is a very shortsighted evaluation, usually proffered by guys ego-invested in a blue pill mindset and in need of easy definitions and buzz words to ridicule and move onto the next distraction.
Facing red pill truths is uncomfortable, and I understand the need to casually pass them off for fear of really having to critically reconsider ego-investments; that type of insight requires either real depth of character or an experience traumatic enough to shake one from beliefs that, in essence, make up part of their personality.
Both require a concentrated effort to learn from, and honestly, most people are too lethargic to consider red pill truths when there are more entertaining distraction to inure themselves with.
It’s just this lethargy that prevents them from understanding that Game and red pill awareness have matured far beyond the PUAs techniques of the past. Neil Strauss published The Game in 2003 – that’s 15 years since Mystery was wearing top hats and elevator boots.
Those caricatures may be comforting to laugh at, but in fifteen years the developed techniques and observations Game practitioners failed and succeeded with fed into what we would eventually come to understand as red pill awareness today.
The body of infield evidence collected by 15 years of PUA is far more reliable and valid than anything social science produced on seduction
— Nick Krauser (@Krauserpua) November 15, 2013
Even some well meaning red pill Men may want to self-affirmingly ridicule the PUAs of the past and present, but if you have embraced a red pill awareness today, at least partially, you have these Men to thank for risking rejection and practicing techniques that laid a foundation for contemporary red pill awareness.
Now, imagine for a moment that, today, all men had to build on was the antiseptic studies and controlled experiments of a social science academia firmly steeped in a feminine-primary, feminine-correct social context. Imagine what red pill awareness would be if not for the guys in the field doing ‘experiments’. Imagine what marriage counselors and ‘relationship experts’ would (and honestly, still) advise men to do in order to change their lives with an understanding based solely on what a feminine- primary, controlled social science approved of.
Only the PUAs of then and now have had the unfettered freedom to perform in-field social experiments, and relate their collected evidence and observations with other men; the types of which social science has been forbidden from due either to ethical considerations or by feminine-primary social conventions.
Game does not Occur in a Vacuum
Recently the comment threads here have had a tendency to devolve into a “looks are all that matters so why bother learning Game?” line of reasoning. The commentariat can lean towards go-your-own-way defeatism, then to resolving to live in the gym until one inspire female arousal, or, to appeals to positive confidence.
And while I have always recognized – more than most other manosphere bloggers if I dare – the obvious truth that Looks are a prime requisite for arousal (and attraction), I also recognize an effort to discredit Game and red pill awareness by absolutes, extremes and absurdities.
For anyone with the sense that Game and red pill awareness is valueless and superfluous in the face of women’s primary drive for physical arousal, I suggest you read Advocatus Diaboli’s treatise on how to pragmatically use escorts (either that or relocate to the state of Nevada). Honestly, I hold no disapproval for men who feel this is the best way to satisfy their need for sex and female contact. It may indeed be your best option under the current social environment.
For anyone else, I think it’s very important to look at the benefits of Game both in an intergender and interpersonal context. If you consider yourself “red pill” (another useful, but abstract term) Game has benefitted you – because it was the early trials and errors of Game that led to red pill principles we understand now.
If you have even a cursory grasp of how women’s biology and menstrual cycle influences ovulatory shift behaviors in mate preferences and you’ve altered your perception of women, Game has benefitted you.
If you understand the basics of feminine hypergamy and the sexual strategies women use to optimize their mate selection, and then changed your intergender tact as a result of it, Game has benefitted you.
If you’ve internalized the core psychological principles underlying women’s perceptions of Amused Mastery, Command Presence, Agree & Amplify, Cocky & Funny, Social Proof, Dread and even Chick Crack, whether you’ve applied them or not, Game has expanded your consciousness of women’s behaviors and their motivators.
If you’ve had the insight to understand your blue pill conditioning, the reasons for your predispositions towards a Savior Schema, feminine identifying, why a LJBF is a rejection, why Beta Game comes naturally to men but is self defeating, or why SMV accrues and decays over the course of a lifetime, Game and the red pill have benefitted you.
If you’ve used or modified any of these principles to better your marriage, your dealings with co-workers, your daughter, mother or even your best friend’s domineering wife, you’ve benefitted from Game.
If you’ve saved or bettered another man’s life, or bettered his intergender relationships, you’ve both benefitted from Game.
I could go on, but if you honestly believe that women’s primary physical arousal cues trump any value that Game or red pill awareness really has, then you’re wasting your time here reading and commenting on what I have to offer. You’d be better served by focusing all your attentions to lifting in the gym and shifting your career goals toward a job that is physically demanding and keeps you at your physical best.
Ironically, getting in shape is also an aspect of Game. Even if your belief is “Looks are everything”, but yet your understanding of this comes as a result of your red pill awareness of the Alpha Fucks side of hypergamy, Game has benefitted you.
Just a familiarity with Game concepts, whether you accept them or not, still influence your perception of women and the motivations behind their behaviors.
Red pill awareness challenges feminine-primary thinking. Why do you think the mass dissemination of red pill awareness is so threatening to the Feminine Imperative?
Doing Something
What is the manosphere actually ‘doing’?
This is the first critique I expect from from a poor debate opponent – disqualifying the strength or validity of a premise by the ‘success’ or lack thereof of a proponent’s efforts to enact or convince others of that premise.
By this logic, one could make the case that the MRM is an utter failure, but it still doesn’t mean they aren’t correct in their efforts.
As I mentioned on the Christian McQueen Show, I’m of a bottom up, or an inside – out mind when it comes to enacting red pill ‘change. The manosphere is raising awareness and this needs time (maybe even a generation) to mature into personal consciousness and then popular consciousness.
It’s difficult to quantify the ‘results’ of the manosphere, red pill awareness and Game because its effects are individually subjective at this stage. There isn’t a day that goes by that I don’t receive an email, a forum/blog comment or a tweet about how my book or what I’ve written on the blog has changed (or literally saved) a man’s life.
That’s not meant to gloss myself, but rather to illustrate a point – the red pill (and Game) is doing something, it’s changing minds and lives. It’s not rallying men in the streets and waving banners, nor is it effecting legal or social policy (yet), but it’s making men aware of their condition and changing their beliefs.
No hate for what the MRM is doing, I recognize the intent and applaud it, but thus far it’s been impotent in effecting “real change in policy”, while red pill awareness has done more for men individually. For all of the MRM’s efforts to enact public change, all it takes is one White Knight in a position of authority to say “GTFO you misogynist creeps!” Now imagine in the future a man who’s red pill aware in a position to effect that policy.
Real change isn’t going to happen directly it’s going to happen indirectly, on a man by man basis. And not just publicly but personally.
That change will happen in men’s relationships with their wives, daughters and sons. That change may simply be a form of ‘civil disobedience’ in not marrying at all, or holding women accountable for their open embrace of hypergamy and their AFBB sexual strategy and only marrying / supporting women who make an effort to control their hypergamy.
That change will happen in the workplace and hiring practices. That change will filter into men’s better understanding as the red pill spreads and men reassume some of the social frame control the Feminine Imperative unilaterally legislates and provide to women now.
The red pill is ‘doing’ something, it’s planting the seeds for a greater shift in gender power with every man who becomes aware of how women ‘are’ and what they will predictably do.
[…] Game Works […]
Wow! Let me tell something. If I hadn’t stumbled across the creepy looking cover titled “Rules of the Game” by Neil Strauss back in 2009 when I was hell bent on changing my life by either joining a rock band and taking drugs everyday or something of the like. The first few pages blew my mind. It talked about social exercises like talking to 3 girls in public about something. Lot of such missions basically, with the promise that if you do it all you will live the life of your dreams, I bought the book straight away though till… Read more »
The bottom line is that all aspects of game work. I have gone from having “oneitis” and not knowing how to fix our relationship to spinning six plates and sleeping with at least two per day while getting my ex back. She knows about the others and wouldn’t dare to say anything about it. I wouldn’t dream that this level of game was possible for me, but after that traumatic experience of unplugging I can write my own ticket. My advice: grow a beard, it’s free…get in the gym, watch your diet, it’s free, ride a motor cycle, get a… Read more »
I disagree. ‘Game’ is largely a myth – a popular fiction synthesized to embellish male success with a basis in real quantities of evolutionary value. Trivial observations that seemingly confirm ‘game’, are observing nothing more than spurious correlations. The quest for a practically learned skill that can ‘bend’ female choice is a fool’s errand, because in order for evolution to work opportunistically, it must cull (in particular) male frequencies every generation. So, a problem occurs in the observation of ‘naturals’ (an accepted premise of game convention) – demonstrating game as a behavioral phenomenon of ‘handicapping’ load (via the handicap principle),… Read more »
I’ve mentioned before that I first came across the blog from YT’s Stardusk mentioning your Warbrides piece. Both Stardusk and Bar Bar of YT share your concepts of “a bottom up, or an inside – out mind when it comes to enacting red pill ‘change. The manosphere is raising awareness and this needs time (maybe even a generation) to mature into personal consciousness and then popular consciousness.” I’ve followed both of these YT users closely for years and yes they are critical of game/PUA and of the MRM but they both at least share this bottom up concept with you.… Read more »
Game is also a mindset. This is a key learning for me in my own evolution and transition. The techniques and Red Pill ideas are crucial, but they can only be sustained in a persona that is confident.
The hardest thing is alignment. Understanding hypergamy has been both enlightening to be able to after any girl I fancy. But it also instilled some fear. It’s that fear that bothers me. How do you care without being overly invested or outcome dependant is the newest challenge.
If game and by extension red pill knowledge, if all it does is “cure” blue pill failure, then in practical terms I think it works. We can debate all day long about what precisely “game” is or why it works but this doesn’t change the fact that time and time again, men are able to learn it, what ever “it” is and to apply it and to succeed at what they wish to. Namely they are able to undo whatever damage “blue pill” living has done and get more of what they want with far less pain and suffering in… Read more »
Ah Rollo, for years I have been an avid reader of the manosphere usually through forums as my poison and rationalmale as my primary blog read, and I have to say your podcast interview brought me one and a half hours of tranquility. I’m a 20 year old male who has been exposed to the manosphere for the past 5 years or so, and I have to say that a man can read all day about what he should do with women; how he should act, what he should say and all of that good shit. However all of this… Read more »
I don’t know why people deny that game doesn’t work especially when we see puas getting laid to the level of envy(not all of them are lying) I have seen the effects of game on women especially of my relatives and sisters even though there is no sexual tension involved so its not only useful in sexual ways as Rollo metions Also I am definetly the least exp. here but I have noticed the changes after the red pill mindset and I cant deny while some men here deny game’s utility there are women using there feminine game i.e. make… Read more »
@ Siirtyrion at 2:54. Perhaps I misunderstand, but my take on the content of RM is that it restructures the narrative – the story we tell ourselves about ourselves. The narrative is the change, with the unintended consequence of getting more action with the ladies. I respectfully submit that your argument puts the cart before the horse.
Understanding intergender relations helps a man prioritize his life and cures any misconceptions about the nature of attraction. This understanding lends a congruence to his everyday life and he can decide what kind of women (if any) and people in general, he wants in his life. There is no silver bullet to make one happy, but for a man who is determined to be happy, Game provides a basic understanding of what he can expect from women. The rest is up to the man.
“Now, imagine for a moment that, today, all men had to build on was the antiseptic studies and controlled experiments of a social science academia firmly steeped in a feminine-primary, feminine-correct social context. Imagine what red pill awareness would be if not for the guys in the field doing ‘experiments’. Imagine what marriage counselors and ‘relationship experts’ would (and honestly, still) advise men to do in order to change their lives with an understanding based solely on what a feminine- primary, controlled social science approved of.”
No need to imagine, this was called the 1980’s…
It should be interesting when we hit that tipping point, and I think we are close. It does appear that Feminism has reached the point of “Jumpng the shark” and blown its wad. Much of what feminism is now demanding, eg. “Rape Stare” and “Fat Acceptance” would have been a satirical Monty Python skit 30 years ago. In regards to game, yes it works. I’ve a friend who is who is the poster boy of game, he has charisma and confidence that’s off the charts. He had a on and off relationship that he just ended and now has five… Read more »
@Siirtyrion – you don’t understand evolution. Your entire post is premised on the idea that evolution works on individuals and that moreover evolution has some sort of goal. It doesn’t and doesn’t. Women use “costly signals” as well (“costly” signals of fertility such as makeup, high heels, breast implants/lifts, etc.); but these aren’t “costly” in an evolutionary context. Costly means that your’e sacrificing individual well-being (e.g., easier to spot by predators) to attract the attention of the opposite sex for mating opportunities. Because human beings have no natural predators in our current environment, there is no selection going on for… Read more »
Krauser’s comment strikes me as much like what you hear from people promoting homeopathy – ‘all that sciencey stuff doesn’t matter, what we non-scientists all tell ourselves and each other is all that matters’. Really? Krauser’s own success rate is super low, hundreds of approaches a few hits, same with Roosh. How is that data so impressive? How does he know – for example – that if he just did that many approaches before “game” that he wouldn’t have had the same success (failure) rate? He never made that volume of approaches before game. You see in a real sscientific… Read more »
@ AlphaBeta – N.B. SiirTyrion is a developmental biologist at MIT. I think he understands evolution quite well, lol. Can’t wait for your reply to AlphaBeta’s points, Siir.
All this talk about genetic fitness has always been a bit confusing to me. Other than looks, there is no secret genetic quality detector that woman could possibly. The idea that the “best” genes are selected is putting the cart before the horse. Different genetic traits survived and developed as an adaptation to different environments. What makes the “best genes” really depends on environment and needs. The myth that women can somehow sense the best genes is alot like the blue pill myth of women having some magical intuition. They don’t. I’m also noticing that people saying that game doesn’t… Read more »
Glenn, the problem is human evolution is no longer determined by the law of the jungle, modern human interaction with protection from any form of serious predation is new territory. The most basic premise of RP theory is about all round self improvement, and ” Watch what they do, not what they say”, which from the standpoint of my own life as a 59 year old male and many others is correct. It was just a couple of years ago experts like SirTyrion were stating that based on their surveys of what women wanted, men in aprons changing diapers were… Read more »
Of course Game works. Women, thanks to game, are no longer a mystery to men.
@ Glenn
Most importantly? I’m now not angry about any of it anymore.
That phrase shows the way to anybody that wants to unplug. To be successful, you don’t need to know every single detail of “Game” but there are main ideas that you must really accept if you want to grow confidence and inner peace.
Simple questions: Has your basic understanding and general perception of women changed as a result of your knowledge of hypergamy, AFBB and the biological motivators of ovulatory shift? Are you better off for it now that you can adjust your own behaviors and interactions with women you’d want to have a short or long term mating/pairing with according to those new expectations? Are you in a better informed position to optimize your own sexual strategies and / or life plans as a result of that knowledge? If you answered yes to any of these, Game / Red Pill awareness has… Read more »
Glenn’s post is a great example of the Red Pill. Live life for you and for the moment. You will attract people who want to be in it. Never, ever make any person, not even your children, your life purpose. The second you do that, you lose the ability to lead. Focus on yourself, your goals, strength, etc…..the willing followers will break down doors to be with you.
Glenn’s post is the most Red Pill thing ever.
Game definitely works. What are these people talking about? Game works in a pickup. Game works in a LTR or marriage because your wife is still a woman. Game is about adopting a set of behaviors, attitudes, and beliefs that maximize your attraction to woman. Unless you have already maximized your behaviors, attitudes, and beliefs, then game will help you. For guys like me with a high status job who already lift weights and look pretty good but who always failed miserably with women (including my own wife) a lack of game is THE problem. Fixing it with game is… Read more »
Two years ago I was plugged-in and locked-in, and on the emotional going-out-of-business curve that a blue pill man rides. Drafthorse illusions only amuse the gods, who therefore torture him for sport. Sorta like what Rosamund Pike does to the clueless Affleck in Gone Girl. Applications of Game, however defined, inform daily life and just today are protecting me from something I never would have seen two years ago — a girl who friend-zoned me now lane-changing and suddenly finding me more attractive — as well as a married woman friend who appears to be in an hypergamous fever. Neither… Read more »
I have an experience with red-pill and Game that, I think, illustrates the difference Game can make, or not, if you chose to ignore it. I first came to Game a few years ago- maybe 3 yrs- at the time I was 40 and moved to a new city. I immediately started dating and applying Game concepts- although very sloppily and half heartedly because I was still blue pill enough to think NAWALT. As I got more comfortable with the inner game changes in myself, a woman I had a crush on at work suddenly started acting attracted to me.… Read more »
@ BuenaVista – Careful about the lane changing friendzoner. I had a woman who tried to friendzone me – which I rejected. We were still friends after she turned down my advances, but on my terms and I think this drove her crazy. I dated other women and never pined away for her or tried to win her over. Fyi, I now know I was her backup Beta provider plan. She had been riding the alpha cock carousel for almost 20 years, in NYC, so she was fucked in the head seriously, but she was fun, went to clubs I… Read more »
Rollo, I appreciate your feedback during the interview in regard to married men who are newly red pill aware. I agree that there is no magic bullet or specific action plan that men can implement; I think that your advice in regard to internalizing the core concepts you mentioned in the interview and in this post is correct, unfortunately, trying to affect positive change(based on a red pill outlook) in your blue pill marriage is a long path, as you mentioned. Tent Mtn wrote “…my take on the content of RM is that it restructures the narrative – the story… Read more »
Looks are a part of Game. The characteristics of one’s appearance, from physical fitness, body language, and facial handsomeness to clothes, flair, and other accessories, etc. function within Game as a magnifier of other signals, and usually in that order. Put simply, the better you look, from fitness to body language to handsomeness, and to a lesser extent from clothes to flair (jewelry, pocket squares, etc.) to other accessories (car, house, etc.) the better people respond to your communication otherwise, both positively *and negatively*. I.e., not only do people respond better to your successful and accomplished interaction with them, they… Read more »
Glenn, I don’t steal from friends, much less family friends, but thanks for the heads up. As I noted, I am grateful for the RP education so I know what the score is, more often than not, and specifically in the two romantic situations that are now in my inbox.
Correction: I don’t steal, period, but thanks for the heads up.
@Agent p: Who gives a fuck if it offers “evolutionary success” in the strict sense of the concept? The Chickas don’t care. Actually, the “chickas” do care. As a matter of fact, the whole human race cares. If it didn’t, men wouldn’t be subconsciously attracted to women with qualities that display high fecundity (youth, adequate amounts of fat deposits in the thighs, breasts, rear etc…) and women wouldn’t be subconsciously attracted to males that display highly masculine features (broad shoulders, height, large brows and jaw etc…) during their ovulatory phase. @Tent Mtn: The narrative is the change, with the unintended… Read more »
Damn, messed up on the blockquotes. Those last two paragraphs on my last post are written by me and not Rollo.
Starting from, “You’ve accepted one piece of hard science…”
@ Siirtyrion – A home run, tour de force, epic response – whatever you want to call it. It’s funny, I had already turned away from the entire manosphere except for Rollo as I continuously found that most people in it misuse and misunderstand the science behind all this. In particular, what was useful for me was listening to actual scientists discuss this stuff. Evo psychologists, biologists, anthropologists etc. Shocker – one can’t bootstrap their way to understanding evolutionary biology by watching a few YouTube videos and reading blog sites, lol. So, I spectate. You’ll note that my commentary is… Read more »
Siirtyrion Want proof that women cannot detect “great genes” or that all this evo stuff is hardly relevant to an individual man? Look around Short men getting married and having kids, ugly men, skinny men, men in jail, stupid men, you name it.. I walk out my door and more than half the men/women reproducing are ugly, dumb, failures or all of the above. So evolution selects for the best genes.. except when it doesn’t. Many species go extinct precisely because the females arent choosing the mates best capable of survival at all times. Regardless, who cares? really? outside some… Read more »
Siirtyrion, and others if applicable, I am interested in reading up on evolution as my understanding of the process is rather basic, I have had The Blind Watchmaker–by Richard Dawkins recommended to me. Would you recommend this book as well? _________________________________________________________ As I just admitted, I have a basic understanding of evolutionary theory, however, I am having trouble pinning down what Siirtyrion and Rollo really disagree on. From what I gather, it seems to be a technical disagreement rather than a practical one. @ Siirtyrion, I don’t see how your argument addresses the efficacy of “Amused Mastery, Command Presence, Agree… Read more »
” By early spring, the larders were bare in most farming societies. The food scarcity could be lessened in two ways: 1) By increasing food production during the growing season and storing the produce for off-season consumption; and 2) By domesticating animals as a year-round food source. Both strategies, however, tended to increase male participation in agriculture and thus decrease female self-reliance.” And of course just about every agripastoral community’s fave pastime 3) War. Raiding and rustling, as soon as the harvest/meat-preserving season was done. As highly organized bands, becoming an almost professional skill requirement of the group’s young men.… Read more »
In this context the word “Game” can have a positive or negative connotation. The positive is that “Game” abstractly and objectively describes real truths, principals, and techniques. The negative is that “Game” implies pretend. Playing the game Monopoly is not the same as running a real business although it involves a few of the same basic principals. It is good the word “game” is used herein because it objectifies what is really happening. This helps the individual separate himself from his situation and logically comprehend it. However, the word “game” implies pretending or “playing” rather than really performing. The game… Read more »
The red pill IS having a noticeable effect on the general population.
http://dontmarry.wordpress.com/
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/young-men-giving-up-on-marriage-women-arent-women-anymore
http://www.the-niceguy.com/articles/MarryAmerican.html
#1 at the bottom of this is especially interesting http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-5-reasons-marriage-scares-men-arent-what-you-think/
You ARE having an effect. I recommended your book to several, three so far bought it.
I’m getting sick of thanking you Rollo but great interview and body of work. @ Hobbs & bluepillprofessor – I can totally relate to you guys and agree with your comments. @ Glenn – I usually really dig your honest POV posts – but when you say “I just want to bang as many hotties as I can before I have no more chances. I used to never even be able to admit that was what I wanted before the Red Pill.” – ok so how is it that you approach women? Do you approach? Do you wait for IOI’s… Read more »
Simple questions: Has your basic understanding and general perception of women changed as a result of your knowledge of hypergamy, AFBB and the biological motivators of ovulatory shift? Yes Are you better off for it now that you can adjust your own behaviors and interactions with women you’d want to have a short or long term mating/pairing with according to those new expectations? Yes Are you in a better informed position to optimize your own sexual strategies and / or life plans as a result of that knowledge? Absolutely. Looks count? Of course, but game is a total package that… Read more »
I think when every man buys a girl flowers he has this instinctive “wtf am I doing” or just an unatural feeling. Either I was super duper happy to make her feel better, or I felt like a pussy and did it anyways.
You know you’re red pill aware when you understand when this buying of flowers is actually a red flag lol.
I always had a WTF am I doing feeling when buying flowers, etc. and also when buying my wife’s engagement ring…a little dissonance in the back of my mind I never could quite understand consciously. It took me a long time, several key occurrences over a few years to start really becoming red pill aware. I hope Rollo’s book, the manosphere, etc. helps many others to see the light sooner in life than I did.
@ David W. Would love to hear more of your story and what sort of game your run in your LTR.
@ FM, oh ya? Gotta admit, that sounds a bit suspicious my friend. Either you are trolling, (I won’t take the bait), or you are entirely new to this site and to red pill. If you happen to be new, please to go year one and read up on the best of RM, it will be very enlightening to say the least. My story is nothing unique and would contribute nothing to the conversation that hasn’t already been addressed on this site. I am simply a newly red pill aware married man, *shrug,* a good percentage of the posters here… Read more »
@ Stuttie – I think I must not have been clear. I use all that I learned in the manosphere when I interact with women. I gobbled up info on shit tests and IOIs and other PUA techniques, but my POV was quite different from your’s and perhaps many other guys who come to “game”. My “n” was over 100 before the Red Pill and I’m also a high level, very successful sales executive who’s been going up to strangers and asking them for as much as millions of dollars for years, so “approaching” has always been child’s play to… Read more »
Siirtyrion continues to complain that “the question is not whether or not it ‘works’”, but whether or not Game *should* work since women have such exquisitely-honed pickers. This is the exact same complaint that women have: they don’t like knowing the fact that Game can easily work. For all of his/her smokescreening about “honest” signals, the fact that “dishonest” learned signals work so well is THE topic of this post. I have the opposite complaint, currently incarnated as the Unamused Presence here: the reason Game works so well is because women have such awful pickers. If a man can hold… Read more »
@Hobbes re: “The myth that women can somehow sense the best genes is alot like the blue pill myth of women having some magical intuition. They don’t.”
This. This. Get this, and be free.
@ JF12 – You are all misunderstanding Siirtyrion. In fact, he’s never said that women can detect good genes. Of course all the fitness tests are proxies – this is not news. And in fact, he discussed in detail the scientific data that shows how women overvalue appearance when selecting mates from a genetic fitness POV. In essence, when one moves beyond average attractiveness, the marginal improvement in fitness plummets. This is part of the runaway selection phenomena he describes. He also went at length to describe how this is a forcing on the “system” and reduces genetic quality, and… Read more »
There are many out there who don’t want to accept the fact that Game works (even after all of the data has been collected). You see it time after time, the little things – the little adjustments that men make when meeting women – and they work. Feminists (and the feminist narrative) doesn’t want it to work and doesn’t even want to admit it works because it will burst their bubble and let the cat out of the bag. All of their nonsense that they’ve been preaching for the last few decades will look just like that – nonsense. Men… Read more »
re: “Hunter-gatherers became less polygynous with increasing distance from the equator.” Objection: speculation, and fantasy. One of many many counterexamples, although one suffices: NorthAmerican Eskimos. Almost all of latitudinal reality refutes Siirtyrion. It’s like a conspiracy against him/her. For examples, the common Iroquois, far distant from the equator, were more polygynous than the Aztecs,and *far*more polygamous than common equatorial Incas. And keeping going the other way, the common Yahgans of Tierra del Feugo were, again, much more polygamous than common Incas. So much for the Western hemisphere. In Africa, the Zulus, far from the equator, are much more polygynous than… Read more »
About Siirtyrion, October 9th, 2014 at 2:54 am . In this article, Rollo “looks at the benefits of Game both in an intergender and interpersonal context”, and shows us ways in which different elements that comprise Game have had, and will continue to have, a significant and positive effect. As he says, Game is “an abstract term for a much larger concept”, and one that includes many disparate aspects of male-female interaction. . Nevertheless, Siirtyrion ignores all of this, and immediately returns to repeating his one and only message: “I disagree. ‘Game’ is largely a myth – a popular fiction… Read more »
If your definition of Game in 2014 is based solely on ‘Leisure Suit Larry’ caricatures of PUAs from the early 2000s, you don’t know what Game is.
The PUAs of today (or what they’ve evolved into) aren’t the snake oil salesmen you need to worry about – it’s the ‘life coaches’ and the “I didn’t want to spend all that time in school” marriage ‘specialists’ who want to solve blue pill idealism with just enough red pill truths they borrow from the manosphere.
If you’re indignant about contemporary PUAs your concerns are misplaced.
@eon, I concur. Unless Siirtyrion really is a nonscientific cut-and-paste woman who does not want to be subject to Game, he is doing a fine job of portraying how such a woman would write.
I’d love to believe all the Evolutionary theories, but experience tells me that game matters at least a little bit. Seen too much anecdotal evidence to suggest otherwise. Guys who, objectively, would be 4 on a 10 scale, who don’t have tons of cash (excluding the “rich guy” phenomena), pulling down chicks who rate, 7, 8, 9, even 10s. And when you hang out with these guys, who may be bald, short, have tons of moles, or whatever, you realize they have that “X” factor, with chicks…it doesn’t even mean they are charismatic at work or outside that dating/pick up… Read more »
@ Eon – And what are your credentials? Also, next time you hire a lawyer or go to a doctor, how about you just pick the guy who writes blog posts that you like? You may or may not be correct in your analysis of Siirtyrion’s comments (and again, I await his response with interest) but you clearly are a dunce when it comes to cognitive science and reason. Short version? Humans aren’t rational as individuals and in fact the best that any single human can do is engage in “motivated reasoning”. It turns out that we arrive at “truth”… Read more »
Brilliant. I’m stealing this.
And thank you for sparing me writing a long rebuttal this weekend – I have a real big fish in my work life to reel in.
I’ve perused Siirtyrion’s blog and while I respect his observations and intellectualism, I can’t help but come away with the impression that he’s more on a personal crusade to discredit Game than he has any real interest in the evo-psych basis of intergender relations.
@ jf12
Siirtyrion may well be a cut-and-paste woman, since its comments are full of stuff that look like verifiable references, but really are not. For example, “… attractiveness (Grammer & Thornhill, 1994; Zebrowitz, Voinescu, & Collins, 1996)”
This is how in-line reference appear in a journal article, and this is acceptable, there, because additional critical information, like the fucking title!, is included in a “References” section at the end.
re: “science has already laid out practically everything you need to know behind the interpersonal relationships between men and women.”
ROFL. SMH. FYI.
I trust an MIT scientist working in the field of developmental biology discussing these issues a whole lot more than I do some guy on a blog. http://therationalmale.com/2012/08/13/reality-vs-the-internet/ I think a more valid question would be, do you trust the more than 20 years of research and social experimentation from a PhD at the UCLA Departments of Psychology, Communication Studies, and the Institute for Society and Genetics? http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/research/ http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/papers/ Dr. Hasselton is easily my single most quoted source in the history of this blog. If you really want to sink your teeth into how Siirtyrion’s developmental biology stands up to… Read more »
@ Glenn
“And what are your credentials?”
Lulz, are you really this big of a dumbass?
If you truly can’t understand that anonymous claims made over the Internet are not reliable, then you need to sit down and STFU.
And did you forget that I have already given you my Internet Credentials: “I am nine feet tall, a most pleasing azure shade, and my cock is the size of three beer cans stacked one on top of the other”.
@ Eon – You are not making me look badly, in case you don’t realize it, you are only making a fool of yourself. Siirtyrion may be a liar and you are most likely a flaming asshole, but I’ll go with my best judgment. Fyi, here is Siirtyrion’s blog – much of the content he posts here are in longer posts on that site. http://sirtyrionlannister.wordpress.com/ He’s doing a pretty good impersonation of a scientist. You? You do a great impersonation of a fucking asshole. As for shutting the fuck up – if you don’t want to deal with commentary you… Read more »
@eon Well said on all points. Stinging together confusing sentences filled with technical jargon is a great way to write spoof papers in academic journals. It’s also a great way to sound like you know what you’re talking about to the uninitiated layman. For a particularly appropriate example of this, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair. The Sokal hoax was especially effective because none of the editors were experts in the field of Sokal’s paper (not to mention they simply liked its conclusions). I have yet to read anything from Siirtyrion that convinces me they are not a troll exactly along the same vein.… Read more »
@ Glenn “You? You do a great impersonation of a fucking asshole.” That is Sir Fucking Asshole, to you! After you get sore from humping Siirtyrion’s leg, are you going to return to telling us that we must ignore all “realisms” (truths!), except for sex realism, because they might make us do unnatural things, like want to be around and to protect our extended family, or see that we need to protect our six-year-old sons from those who eagerly rush to elementary schools to demand that they “question their sexuality”? [therationalmale[]com/2014/06/12/owed-sex/] And then are you going to re-repudiate even sex… Read more »
@ Rollo – And what if Siirtyrion is out to debunk game and PUA? You claim to be all about the science – do battle with him scientifically, don’t attack him because his POV threatens your worldview. In fact there is a much longer debunking of game on his blog site that would be a perfect source for you to debunk his overarching argument. Here’s the link http://sirtyrionlannister.wordpress.com/2014/03/23/pick-up-artists-game-subculture-evolutionary-analysis/ Also, all on this thread, LISTEN UP. Don’t conflate Red Pill truths with game, fyi. He’s not debunking all of the Red Pill world, just game as a technique for getting women… Read more »
As I commented and stated in this post, critics of Game (Siirtyrion) find the caricatures of outdated PUAs an easy target to pick apart, when in fact Game has evolved and matured well beyond what they started almost 15 years ago. Call Krauser a hack if you want, but he’s not incorrect; in the last 15 years PUAs (and then Game Theorists if you like) have had a leisure in their “experimentation” with social dynamic techniques and motivation that social science academia have been ethically and ideologically hamstrung from ever attempting. Whether or not you subscribe to what he or… Read more »
@ Eon – You are only proving what a shithead you are. I can’t imagine ever going back to your old comments and testing them for consistency – this is a conversation, not a didactic presentation.
But hey, keep it up. For some reason this appeals to you. Not me though, I pass shitheads like you by in life every day. Please, enjoy being “right” – if only in your feral, vicious little mind…
Thanks for one more superb article.
You say there is no other word for “game” at the beginning. I’ve actually read the term “social dynamics” more than once. And, why not take this lack of a better term as motivation to look for one? What about “gender dynamics?
My motivation is that “game” is difficult to translate from English.
On her website, Siirtyrion is attempting to do heavy lifting for the HUS viewpoint (assortative mating rockz as defined by womenz, chicks hate jerks, etc), with neither the requisite training nor language skillz. I suspect no formal training in any sciences, soft or hard. Stylistically I lean towards Siirtyrion being a smart but undereducated Eastern Euopean woman maid displaced into Scandinavia, having discovered online both women’s rights and Game in the past year, and trying to come to grips with both.
Rollo,
I propose as a finely discriminating binary test for rationality/maleness initially finding Haselton attractively cogent. Further, as a measure of rationality/maleness the degree to which one becomes more of a fanboy of Martie the more one reads from her.
@jf12, bear in mind Hasselton has a lot of help from her colleagues (i.e. Gangstad)
@Glenn You talk the biggest load of bollocks mate!
Krausers old infieilds are still up on youtube, the infields before he was good at game. He couldn’t pull a whore in a whore house but he stuck at it and got good just like learning anything, Guitar, Martial Arts. Foreign Language etc… if you stick at it you get better.
http://youtu.be/dUV7kMALpck
@Rollo, re: Haselton etc.
One study on her site is the Sexual Regret article. Roughly speaking, young women’s basic sexual regrets comprise feeling too often going along with being talked into sex by unattractive males. Young men’s basic sexual regrets comprise feeling too seldom talking females into sex.
IOW, regarding whether it works, it is Game, Set, Match.
Psychosis The movie Titanic 1997 was not so much about the wreck of the Titanic as it was about soliciting a titanic number of movie watchers, titanic revenue, titanic emotional responses from women and …… would not have been so successful without the existence of a titanic psychosis perhaps. This movie is one of the most callous sociopathic vulgar displays of the feminine imperative, male degradation, male objectification and female disregard for male life ever produced. It was also one of the most asinine in your face poverty aggrandizing and shame on you if you are wealthy tropes ever produced.… Read more »
Oh but George, you really need to compare the endings of Titanic to Saving Private Ryan to understand the full significance:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/10/08/love-story/
I sometimes wonder if there hasn’t been something I’ve covered on RM until I get reminded I have.
Glenn’s blowhard asshole quotient seems to increase with each comment. Which is probably why he actually is as successful with the women (and sales!) as he claims. Hey! See what I did there? Asshole game works = Game works!
So, why, precisely, do women hate the fact that Game works?
And why, precisely, do men so enjoy Girl Game? Why should the idea of a man acting sexier than he “really” is be so very, and so universally, irrationally off-putting to women, while the idea that a woman is exerting herself to be sexier is so very, and so universally, rationally exciting to men?
game has changed my life for the better. I know why i do the things that i do, and happily lay a variety of young women. I must say that i really took the self improvement part of game seriously. I dress really well, and i put on 30lbs of muscle in 3 years. (i lift 10 sessions a week). Im a really small guy, but im getting laid alot. the only thing i couldnt change about me was my height, so, i added 30lbs of muscle and now i dont have a problem being socially dominant or being too… Read more »
All this talk about “honest signalling” looks etc also remind me of the Female Imperative of “know your place” Its just another shit test to filter out those guys who “get it” and those who fall for it and don’t. It’s telling that SiirTyrion has now failed to reply, after a steady stream of responses, once he was backed up against the wall and asked “ok, so what are you saying we should do” The silence is deafening. I guess we should remove ourselves fromthe gene pool, know our place and quietly sulk in the corner. Fuck that. Someone posted… Read more »
@David W.
No, I’m not trolling. Just genuinely interested. Yes, I suppose there are numerous posts I could visit. I have been trying to do this over about 6 months. Not at all to be sycophantic, but you sounded like a normal and sane person who might have good little bits of info to pass on to slow learners like me.
I’ll get after that year one research.
Best,
FM
Well, sooooooo….. I am open to the idea that Game as such is not some arcane wizardry that “bends the will” of da Ladies to become wanton sluts because of a well placed neg. Buuut, mebbe, it helped me to unleard my completely useless social conditioning and restored at least somewhat my place in the sexual hierarchy my maxilla and somewhat square jaw and my faces broadness to length ratio and my robust bone structure always deserved. Yes, I went to Sluthate.com. They worry a lot about this stuff. Apparently it is all about the looks. Mebbe this is so.… Read more »
I need to watch Blue Valentine……
@ George, its on Netflix
Thank you
Mr Rollo Tomossi, Couple of questions. Do you honestly believe in game or are you one of those many ”dating gurus” who’ll use whatever it is that men think will get them laid, to sell books and to make money? Another question, How can you guarantee that game works? What proof do you have that PUA’s get laid? I have met many men who tried game with women who were nothing special to write home about and they all failed. Don’t take me wrong, i found the whole experience of advanced pussy-begging pretty fun to watch, but it gets kinda… Read more »
”One study on her site is the Sexual Regret article. Roughly speaking, young women’s basic sexual regrets comprise feeling too often going along with being talked into sex by unattractive males. Young men’s basic sexual regrets comprise feeling too seldom talking females into sex. IOW, regarding whether it works, it is Game, Set, Match.” Oh, look, a Madonna complex. Women are so beautiful and out-of-reach for you, somehow an attractive woman having sex with a man who isn’t a narcissus is rationalized by her as ”feeling bad” or ”rape.” First of all, there are very few men who are attractive.… Read more »
”@Glenn You talk the biggest load of bollocks mate! Krausers old infieilds are still up on youtube, the infields before he was good at game. He couldn’t pull a whore in a whore house but he stuck at it and got good just like learning anything, Guitar, Martial Arts. Foreign Language etc… if you stick at it you get better.” For people who claim to be masters of social interaction, your autism is showing. Her stance is guarded. Her shoulders are slumping, she’s holding her arms because she doesn’t feel secure. The man is making her feel like she’s in… Read more »
@John
Daygame as Therapy
http://youtu.be/3c42VDy5JzI
@John Oh please…. We accept it as a given that to be succesful in any profession, you have to alter your behavior. We accept it as a given that to be succesful in any athletic endevour you need to alter your behavior. But to alter your behavior to attract a mate, well noooo, that will never work. There must be some behaviors that work better than others, you can call that game or not , you can doubt that what game entails actually works, no problem, but if you are saying that no, in this area we are all driftwood,… Read more »
“Do you know what hypergamy is? Hypergamy is the desire of women to marry men of higher social-economical status. It doesn’t happen all that often anymore. many women marry men of equal social status. Most men of higher social status marry women who are equal to them.”
LOL
Ever feel like you’re just wasting your time, Rollo? That lady is definitely not not amused.
And, characteristically, witters on and on and on and on and on and on and on about how unentertained she is.
Too many “nots” in that last. Arrange to taste.
John: “disqualify… disqualify… disqualify…”
Nice passive aggressive “honestly curious,” too.
John/Josephine You invest a great deal of time dissing something you know little about. Please start from Year One above and experience the epiphany. Looks, game, wealth, in whatever order, maximizes female arousal and attraction. There is no controversy here. Your mocking conflation of RM with PUA and other disregarded vestiges of the manosphere is disingenuous. The attractive 50YO man will never garner arousal like his 20YO equivalent. The inarticulate unconfident bumbler, without more, will rarely arouse or attract. The poor man at any age will not garner as much attraction as the rich man. Accepting the red pill means… Read more »
@John, addressing actual verifiable claims you made. 1) American men’s obesity rates are LESS than women’s in every age group except teens, exactly contrary to your misconceptions, and among the 50 yr old white males attracting your scorn, the rate of actual obesity does not exceed 30%, exactly contrary to your misconceptions. There are three times as many *grossly* (extremely) obese older women than men. 2) Defining Nelson, Augustus, and Bonaparte as the exemplary alphas is very misleading. The alphaness of a male is a *sexual* concept based on his *sexual* access to females. Three intesting traits all three men… Read more »
@Hobbes, re: the FI and “know your place”. I believe it to be characteristic of every group that considers itself to be the master group that “know your place” is a primary strategy to keep the others downtrodden. Presumabluy Rollo has addressed the “know your place” aspect, but maybe not highlighted before.
@john
You are still seeing attraction as a rational process that is controlled by the conscious mind. Nobody chooses what they are attracted to. They only choose whether to act on it. Go to any club and see truth in action.
Don’t feed the trolls, say hi to them at HUS and SlutHate
jf12, another intriguing bit of pub-quiz trivia about the 3 amigos Nelson: Five-foot four, possibly five-six. Kiss me arse, Hardy (6’4″). Augustus: “His complexion was betwixt brown and fair;his stature but low; though Julius Marathus, his freedman, says he was five feet and nine inches in height. This, however, was so much concealed by the just proportion of his limbs, that it was only perceivable upon comparison with some taller person standing by him.” Boney: Five-foot two, although revisionists claim five-six. And further, that he was wasn’t known as le petit caporel for being altitudinally challenged. ?Que? Don’t bogart it,… Read more »
“Power poses” can boost testosterone (look it up, it’s worth experimenting with this). Strength training boosts testosterone. A healthy, consistent diet, supplement regimen and plenty of quality sleep will boost testosterone. Getting fresh air and sunlight and minimizing exposure to toxins by using (for example) faucet/shower filters will help keep testosterone levels high. Alpha males = high testosterone, high dopamine, low cortisol. Beta males = low testosterone, low dopamine, high cortisol. That is extremely oversimplified, but for a layperson that understanding is plenty good enough to get the ball rolling. My approach lately has been twofold: 1) To make a… Read more »
Also, excellent article. I think this is one of your best to date.
“Don’t feed the trolls”
for me it’s don’t read the trolls, no value
Game repairing civilization one man at a time:
http://th06.deviantart.net/fs7/PRE/i/2005/202/5/9/Heart_Grenade_by_PoisonIvy13.jpg
@softek
“A path to enlightenment specifically for guys who have been obsessed with the idea that they can find fulfillment in their lives by finding their “one”, or that the reason they’re unhappy is because they don’t have that special woman in their lives.’
thats a great point, however, alot of people arent seeing the forest from the trees. the choice of having that special woman is a BI-PRODUCT of building the best version of yourself.
A woman can love the real you genuinely if the real you is worth loving.
…..meaning the real you is concerned with provisioning first for himself and enjoying his life on his terms. Then, and only then, can a woman love you for “you”.