For as often as I’ve made my best attempts to define what I believe constitutes feminine Hypergamy on this blog, it seems that critics of the red pill, and even newer, well-meaning red pill advocates, are beginning to think of Hypergamy as some convenient trope that manosphereans refer to when they want to explain away some annoyingly female trait.
Is she shit testing you? Must be Hypergamy. She broke a nail? Must be Hypergamy.
There is a very real want for understanding things in as simplistic a solution as possible, but feminine Hypergamy isn’t a dynamic that lends itself to a simple definitions. One of the reasons the early proponents of PUA ran into issues with legitimizing their ideas was due to so many of their ‘students’ seeking out easily digestible answers to solve their ‘girl problems’. As I laid out in Dream Girls and Children with Dynamite, these guys wanted the tl;dr (too long; didn’t read) footnote version of what to do in order to get to the silver bullet, magic formula part of the lesson to either get with their dream girl or “start fucking hot bitches”.
It is exactly this mentality that’s now causing such frustration in understanding Hypergamy and seeing how it works, not just in individual women’s personal decisions, but as a societally influencing force of the Feminine Imperative. Hypergamy is not a “math is hard” dynamic, but because it requires a comprehensive (and evolving) understanding it seems like the go-to throwaway answer to women’s behaviors and mental schemas to men (usually new to the red pill) without the patience to really invest themselves into grasping it.
I’ve defined Hypergamy so often on this blog that if you search the term “hypergamy” in Google, the Rational Male blog is the number two return below the wikipedia definition. As I write my way through the second volume of the Rational Male book I’ve found that a concise understanding of feminine Hypergamy is vital to grasping so much of the social and psychological dynamics that are a result of it. Every PUA technique, every common frustration MGTOW experience, and every gender-biased social injustice MRAs set themselves against, all find their roots in feminine Hypergamy, women’s pluralistic sexual strategy and the social and legal manifestation employed to ensure maximal feminine social primacy in optimizing Hypergamy.
Looks vs Character (Game)
Over the course of the past five or so posts, the topic of discussion in the comment threads has eventually found its way back to the basics of Looks versus Character (or Game, depending on your perspective of how learning affects character). Only discussions over what constitutes ‘Alpha’ in a man are so contentious as the importance women prioritize physical arousal in men.
I’ve already covered this debate and what I believe influences women’s arousal priorities in the Looks Count and Have A Look posts. My intent with today’s post isn’t to reheat these old debates, but rather to investigate a bit further into the connection between Hypergamy and this arousal prioritization.
First and foremost it’s important to understand the part that women’s biologies play in influencing Hypergamy and how women’s biology is more or less the point of origin for how they conduct their sexual strategy. To review, I’ll ask that readers refer to my post Your Friend Menstruation, but the basis of women’s sexual pluralism is found in the natural attraction predispositions that women experience as a result of (healthy) ovulation.
In her up cycle (proliferative) phase of ovulation, women are psychologically and behaviorally motivated to prioritize physical arousal above all other breeding considerations. In her down cycle (post-ovulation, luteal phase) women are similarly motivated to prioritize comfort, rapport, and long term security to ensure parental investment and benefit survival.
What I’ve described here, in as brief a fashion, is the foundation of Ovulatory Shift. There exists over a decade’s worth of experimental psychological and biological evidence supporting this theory. Due to biological and psychological influence, women become subliminally predisposed to behaviors which maximize fertility odds with the best available breeding opportunity, and maximize the best potential for long term provisioning and parental investment.
Whether this behavior is manifested in a preference for more masculinized male faces and body type, greater ornamentation and lower vocal intonation for women during ovulation, or a predisposition for more comforting, nurturing and supportive male characteristics during her luteal phase, the end result is optimizing Hypergamy, and ultimately reproduction.
For further reading on Ovulatory Shift, see the research of Martie Hasselton.
Arousal vs. Attraction
From last week’s post, in one of his less long-winded comments, commenter Siirtyrion inserted this bit of evolutionary truth:
Females only receive two quantities of evolutionary value from males – direct benefits (observed in long-term mating, with implications for the survival of offspring), and genetic benefits (observed through indications of physical attractiveness in her mate). And since females can receive genetic benefits outside of marriage (i.e. through casual sexual encounters), and no longer need rely upon mates for the survival of their offspring, there is no pressure for them to compromise on holding out for an unlikely (long-term) fantasy partner.
This current social pattern increases highly male variance in mating success, because female sexual choices always tend towards small male breeding populations (narrow range of male phenotypes), while male ‘preferences’ are inclusive of a broad range in female variance.
I believe one of the main contentions Siirtyrion kind of needles with this is that, as described, modern conveniences of female social empowerment (actual or imagined) discounts the need for hypergamic assurances of long term security. I’m not so willing to accept an overall disregard for the provisioning aspect (Beta Bucks) – you’re not going to reprogram millennia of psychologically evolved firmware overnight – but in discounting this need, the characteristics for which women would seek out a male exemplifying the best long-term security are deemphasized if not considered entirely.
If you read through any woman’s online dating profile you undoubtedly come across some variation of what Roissy has described as the “483 bullet point checklist” of stated prerequisites a man must possess in order for her to consider him a viable candidate for her intimacy. While I don’t think there are quite that many items on the checklist, you’ll find a host of common-theme personal qualities a guy has to have in order to be her boyfriend – confident (above all), humorous, kind, intelligent, creative, decisive, sensitive, respectful, spiritual, patient,..I could go on or you could just read this old joke.
The point is that all of these characteristics that women list as being ‘attractive’ have absolutely no bearing on how sexually, physically, ‘arousing’ a woman finds a man. As I’ve described in the past, while Game and personality can certainly accentuate arousal, all of these esoteric personal qualities have no intrinsic “‘gina tingle” value if a man isn’t an arousal prospect to begin with.
The confusion that most Beta men make is presuming that what women list as being necessarily ‘attractive’ IS what makes him ‘arousing’. So when he models himself (often over the course of a lifetime) to personally identify with this checklist of attractive prerequisites he’s often frustrated and angered when all of that personal development makes for little difference when a woman opts to regularly fuck men of a better physical standard.
It’s duplicity of a sort, but it is also a strategy of deliberate confusion.
It may not be a woman’s conscious plan, but this deliberate confusion makes the best pragmatic sense to effect an optimized Hypergamy. Remember that Hypergamy is not just Alpha Fucks, it’s also Beta Bucks … if a bit delayed in her life in order to maximize Alpha Fucks. So when a woman describes what she finds “attractive” in a man this list will include all of the above bullet point characteristics because they “sound right” – because they shine her in the best light, yes, but also because in being so concerned she imputes the idea that she’s following the ‘right’ plan of looking for a good man to have a future with, and raise kids with.
Then and Now
This is going to sound like I’m glossing myself, but bear with me – I can remember how effortless sex used to be for me when I was in my 20’s. I had sex outdoors, in cars, hotel rooms, in hot tubs, in the steam room of an all women’s gym (after hours), I even got after it with a girlfriend in the balcony of a church in L.A. once (again after hours, no one around, only for convenience I assure you). Mostly I didn’t have a dime to my name, but I still had one of two fuck-buddies who would literally come to the bedroom window of my apartment to fuck me in the morning once or twice a week before I went off to the community college I was going to.
The point is there was no pretense of ‘attraction’ being anything other than a girl and I enjoying ourselves then. There was no ‘checklist’ of acceptable pre-qualifications for intimacy. The providership necessity that dictates a need for long-term consideration wasn’t even an afterthought; in other words, the Beta Bucks / Character / Integrity aspect of Hypergamy that women publicly claim is a dealbreaker for real intimacy was prioritized far below Alpha Fucks sexual urgency.
You can say these were just the types of girls I was getting with at the time, but courtesy of social media, I assure you, you would think these women would never have had that capacity now. They were all “sooo different when they were in college.”
It’s not until after a woman’s Epiphany Phase at around the time she becomes aware of her SMV decline that she begins to consider making that Beta Bucks checklist any kind of prerequisite for sex and intimate partnering. However, this epiphany isn’t the sudden revelation women would like men to believe it is.
For the life of me I can’t remember where I read the link, but I was reading a ‘Dear Abby’ sort of advice seeking article from a young girl (early 20’s) who was exasperated over finding the “perfect guy” only she couldn’t ‘get with him now‘. Her words were something like “He’s so great, awesome personality, funny, in love with me, supportive, etc., but I wish I could freeze him in time so he’d be the same guy and waiting for me when I turn 29 or 30.”
On some level of consciousness, like most women, she knows the dictates of what her own Hypergamy is predisposing her to. She knows she’ll eventually need that ‘perfect’ supportive, in-love guy to live out the long-term aspect of her Hypergamy with,…after she’s exhausted her short term breeding potential with men who better embody the Alpha Fucks dictates of her Hypergamy.
Arousal Preparation vs. Provisioning Preparation
For all of Siirtyrion’s vernacular, I will have to agree (to a point) that the balance between women’s short term breeding impulse and the long term provisioning needs Hypergamy predisposes them to now strongly favors the Alpha sex side of that optimization.
In Open Hypergamy I made a case for the aspect of an ‘old order’ of Beta Provisioning being a previously ‘attractive’ element for women’s determining long term suitability with a man, and that this old order was being replaced with other, extrinsic means of ensuring a woman’s security needs. Whether by social funding, or by indenturing men to provide for women’s wellbeing through other social conventions the effect is an imbalance between the dual nature of women’s sexual strategy.
However, I also feel it goes beyond just the social element now. Men are still confused by a feminine conditioning which wants to ‘freeze’ him in time in order to be the dutiful ‘perfect’ guy, ready to be thawed out and ready to serve the Feminine Imperative at a woman’s convenience.
While still convenient, men must be conditioned to confuse him that ‘attraction’ qualities are ‘arousal’ qualities in order to have him ready to be ‘perfect’ at his appointed time – and it is women who need to believe for themselves that this is what they think should be true.
The Myth of the ‘Good’ Guy
In the beginning of one of my earliest posts, Schedules of Mating, I briefly refer to the ideally balanced guy who would satisfy the optimization purpose of women’s Hypergamy:
There are methods and social contrivances women have used for centuries to ensure that the best male’s genes are selected and secured with the best male provisioning she’s capable of attracting. Ideally the best Man should exemplify both, but rarely do the two exist in the same male (particularly these days) so in the interest of achieving her biological imperative, and prompted by an innate need for security, the feminine as a whole had to develop social conventions and methodologies (which change as her environment and personal conditions do) to effect this.
There is a dichotomy that exists for men in this respect, which really has no parallel for women.
I am aware of certain (formerly red pill) bloggers who promote the archetype of a ‘Good’ guy as some role for men to ideally aspire to. The ‘Alpha Cad’ archetype must necessarily become the ‘douchebag’ caricature of an overtly distasteful masculinity (for men less able to embody it) and yet, the opposite caricature of the doormat, supplicating ‘Beta Dad’ is equally distasteful and certainly untenable when we consider that ‘attractive’ qualities are never ‘arousing’ qualities.
So the archetype of the ‘Good’ guy is offered up as some sort of livable, compromised ideal. If men could aspire to embody the best of the Alpha and temper that with what they define themselves as the best of the Beta, well then he’d be the ‘perfect’ catch for any woman of course.
The problem with this ‘Good Guy’ myth is not because men can’t or wouldn’t want to try to balance women’s Hypergamy for them, but simply because women neither want nor expect that balance in the same man to begin with.
It comes back to the Just Get It principle for women – any guy who needs to make a concerned effort to become what he expects women will want from him to be ‘the perfect guy’ doesn’t get it. They want Mr. Perfect because that is who he already is.
I mentioned above that there really is no parallel for this in women and I’m sure the Madonna / Whore dichotomy will be mentioned in the comments later, but allow me to point out that there is no concerted parallel social effort on the part of women in which women prompt each other to become a ‘Good Girl’ in order to satisfy the ideals of men. If anything a hostile opposite resistance to this is most true.
Women neither expect nor want a ‘Good Guy’ because he’s not believable, and his genuineness is always doubtable. That may sound jaded, but throw away any idea of being a ‘Good Guy’ balance of Alpha and Beta, because the Beta side of ‘good’ is so reinforced and common in men that it’s become the default template for women’s perception of you.
There is no Alpha with a side of Beta, there is only the man who’s genuine concern is first for himself, the man who prepares and provisions for himself, the man who maintains Frame to the point of arrogance because that’s who he is and what he genuinely merits. There is only the Man who improves his circumstance for his own benefit, and then, by association and merit, the benefit of those whom he loves and befriends.
That’s the Man who Just Gets It.
I agree that whenever the topic of what a woman can do to become appealing to men is often met with hostility. But the times that it isn’t, when women may be sincerely asking what appeals to men or what a woman can do, they want specifics.
Compare it to what women advise to men, you return to your Just Be Yourself column. But if you were to say that to women seeking advice on appealing to men, you’d receive a lot of groans and moans that you’re copping out on telling them.
Ugh. I already have a backlog of posts I need to work on, and then you go ahead and write this, Rollo.
Attractive vs. Arousing. If women really do have this hard and fast (pun) dualistic view of men, then being a beta/omega just sucks even more. The beta might be attractive to a woman and she will want to date him or want him as a companion but the good sex will always, always be reserved for the arousal inducing males. Not sure why any man who is not being visited at his bedroom window for fuck buddy sex would want to put any effort into pursuing women after hearing that. Time to go MGTOW. Of course then what you are… Read more »
So physicality trumps all. But it’s not just brute “dominance”physicality right – what about boy band or cute looks. Particularly favored by asian women. Rollo would you generally agree with the following behavioral cues/physique: – Straight posture, contraposto stance – V taper, defined muscles – Smirk or amused mastery facial expression – Clear enunciation This stuff has worked well for me. But one thing, height, is really at the heart of it and I’ve seen it at clubs where the tall huge guy just simply takes the girl from dance floor to bathroom (bangs) then leaves. Much rarer for a… Read more »
Guess that kinda blows a hole in the MMSL crap being peddled.
Damn you Rollo! You’re right of course, but fuck you anyway. Because once again, this will force me to recalibrate. There is a Zen-like wisdom and clarity in this… I actually think there is a lot of Buddhist wisdom in what you write, whether you intend it or not. To be the thing you want to be. To attain the thing you want to attain (sex from a truly desirous partner), it’s almost as if you have to surrender and stop taking the steps to attain it directly. The best concrete example I can think of is night vision (bear… Read more »
Ugh. In my twenties I never had sex once, indeed I was a virgin. Still kind of smarts to hear your stories about how well you had it.
Height is everything. I have seen goofy looking plodding nuckleheads with huge bushy mustaches have tremendous success with women and would be scratching my head in amazement. If you look across every species of animal it’s that way across the board. They have done experiments with birds. Birds that have longer tail feathers have more reproductive success then birds of the same species that have shorter tails. When scientists attached an artificial longer tail to a shorter tailed bird his sex life dramatically improved. Being short/small = bad genes in the female mind which then = no arousal/no nookie.
qualities a guy has to have in order to be her boyfriend – confident (above all), humorous, kind, intelligent, creative, decisive, sensitive, respectful, spiritual, patient,..
A simple google search of those terms brings up this page:
http://disney.wikia.com/wiki/Disneystrology
She wants traits that are composites of Disney characters she’s seen in her lifetime.
So are your last two paragraphs the closest we’re going to get to the tl;dr (too long; didn’t read) footnote version the pua’s were looking for?
Why do women not look after the provisioning of their girlfriends if all their needs are being met? Namely, if a 45 year old woman is in a happy marriage with an affluent alpha dude, why doesn’t she encourage him to take her post-wall girlfriends as 2nd and 3rd concubines into his home? Doesn’t she also want her girlfriends to be provided for as she is?
“women neither want nor expect that balance in the same man to begin with.”
They want an alpha who embodies the good guy traits as an afterthought to his otherwise overwhelming alpha – and only when those traits like generosity and kindness are directed towards her in tantalizingly sparing amounts.
Appreciate the comments, Rollo. Now as cheesy as this may sound, you are without a doubt, a true ‘rational male’. You’re able to set aside your views for a bit (unlike other bloggers) and read another person’s perspective on the true sexual nature behind the sexes. I know I’m not particularly liked around these parts because simply put, ‘redpillers’ are still human and all humans have egos invested in certain ideologies. To have someone claim that your ideology is false or even faulty, brings out a form of primal defensiveness in people where either they simply shut out from any… Read more »
@Corleone I really like your interpretation of this article. It is verified in my experience. The girls come running towards you when you are not directly focused on attaining them. Some of the more legit self-help advice I have seen advocate this approach to life, and by extension, to getting women. Women want men who are focused on achieving their own goals for their life (financial, physical, intellectual, hobbies, etc.) Whenever a man is perceived by women to be chasing them that man’s stock drops immensely in womens’ eyes. If I had to explain it in more spiritual or psychological… Read more »
Rollo writes: There is only the Man who improves his circumstance for his own benefit, and then, by association and merit, the benefit of those whom he loves and befriends. In 2014, due to a ‘hit and run’ driver, I’ve been alive, then dead, then alive but with loss of normal mobility and speech and went from ripped to morbidly obese according to DEXA scans. I’ve made a lot of choices for my own benefit since I began the 24/7 inpatient care program. My choices were against the wishes of those that love me. A lot of people told me… Read more »
Hey Rollo this isn’t related to the post but I was drinking with my friend downtown and we were talking about how it’s hard to stay attracted to the same girl for more than a few months at a time. We’re both in our 20s and live in Las Vegas, so I’m aware that fucking other girls helps but we were curious how you maintain attraction to your wife for such an extended amount of time, especially since you’re monogamous. After I’ve been with a girl for too long I get bored and want to move on to something different.… Read more »
Be of equal or higher value (this is preferable) than her; have as many or more *options (again, preferable) than her and be able to create the opportunities for you and her to get it happening. Having said that; a woman’s perception of a man’s value changes with time. *The most basic definition of value being a combination of looks (SMV), status, and resources (job/money). *Options. Money, status, dominance etc. give a man options. Ironcally though; once a man gets it happening with a woman, she will start limiting said value and options IF you let her get away with… Read more »
@Rollo A well written post but I think you confused “character” with game. Game is about understanding signals, creating signals, and escalating socio-sexual interactions. When one has “game” they also have underlying emotional, intellectual, and confident characteristics. Human beings might be pretty, but they’re still apes. Game is also about social awareness and status. Generally speaking, game enhances arousal in the minds of women because it presents a formidable masculine man. I have never been under any illusions that women desire good-looking men with bulges in all the right places. However, I have seen too many men without the “right”… Read more »
So true Rollo, the Good Guy doesn’t exist in a woman’s mind, he can’t be genuine. He would be too perfect to be trusted, so it’s rather useless for a guy to try to achieve it. And you’re totally right in that women don’t have the slightest interest due to their innate solipsism to want to become a man’s dreamgirl. I guess this has something to do with the entitlement attitude as well that is so common these days. You can criticize me, but I believe that hasn’t been there in the past, because women needed men a lot more… Read more »
“483 bullet point checklist” of stated prerequisites a man must possess in order for her to consider him a viable candidate for her intimacy. Men qualify, women disqualify. Hence the different ways in which the checklist is viewed. Betas think if they can just satisfy enough bullet points, they qualify for intimacy. To women, it’s just a wish list, and they are always (unconsciously) looking for disqualifiers. A large part of game is simply learning and training oneself not to mess up and show those disqualifiers. Hence, talk less, don’t react, move slowly/deliberately, show amused mastery, and so on. Because… Read more »
@Live Fearless: “A man that is driven by his purpose doesn’t feel the need to complain about his looks.” I’d like to extend your thougt a little. I’ve said it before but the looks-are-the-only-thing-that-matters guys are searching for an external excuse they cannot possibly change such as height or facial symmetry to blame for their limited success. These are not the factors that determine your success and empiricism proves it everyday. Sure, maybe you can make a differnece between attraction and arousal but that’s not the point because the results, i.e. reproduction, are the same for rather unappealing high status… Read more »
@BC:
Game even goes so far as to completely flip the script so that you disqualify the woman to which she answers immediately with an attempt to requalify herself. The reason why flipping the script is so powerful is because it’s powerful manipulation and frame setting.
@Bango Tango:
Game in my eyes is awakening your alphaness through a fake it til you make it apporach. Eventually digesting the red pill sets your mind right again. You’re NOT doomed to eternal betaness, frame it as a removable conditioning, which it is!
@ Rollo – great post as always.
Question – Does ones ‘Alphaness’ only then exist and operate in a vacuum (you either ‘just get it’ or you don’t) and Hypergamy is always in a state of flux (ovulatory shift + pluralistic sexual strategy)?
If so, no wonder the AF/BB : AP vs. PP algorithm is so complex.
I guess Hypergamy is not without a sense of irony – it spruiks for the ‘good guy’ beta, but is only aroused by the “selfish” Alpha.
Great analysis as always.
If I had a pound for every time I’ve heard variants of this from female colleagues and acquaintances . . .
“He’s so great, awesome personality, funny, in love with me, supportive, etc., but I wish I could freeze him in time so he’d be the same guy and waiting for me when I turn 29 or 30.”
Does AF/BB really happen in practice? While the woman would mate with the alpha, does she really end up with a child to be raised by the beta? I suppose she could try to trick the beta, but you would think he would figure that out, and it would have to be a pretty low beta to accept the woman with a child because he had no other options for sex.
The confusion that most Beta men make is presuming that what women list as being necessarily ‘attractive’ IS what makes him ‘arousing’. I have been thinking for a while now, that most people do inherently understand hypergamy even if they can’t verbalize it. It’s in every Hollywood movie (even though it is portrayed laughingly skewed). Even beta’s somewhat understand it, even though they make the terrible mistake of trying to optimize it by doing what women say they want rather than watching what truly turns them on. Women neither expect nor want a ‘Good Guy’ because he’s not believable This… Read more »
@Siirtyrion. Great post man! Just as good as Rollo’s piece and explains a lot. We always hear the tired line from people like Heartiste that looks don’t matter, women aren’t as visual as men blah blah, game is all you need to get laid, when in fact when it comes to sexual arousal (and let’s be honest that’s all we men really care about a woman being) looks are in fact MORE important to women in order to be aroused then men. More muscles, more height in men trigger that ancient base instinct for mating in women that has nothing… Read more »
@flip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misattributed_paternity
“If men could aspire to embody the best of the Alpha and temper that with what they define themselves as the best of the Beta, well then he’d be the ‘perfect’ catch for any woman of course.”
If men aspire to be anything to gain women’s approval…it is going to fail badly.
Pure perfection
I spent a lot of time trying to understand the motivation and meaning of the checklist girls, because the environment in which it is most prevalent and explicit is online dating. I was a divorced early-40’s guy, I had never dated (met my ex- at 19), and had never wandered. So I was clueless as to what women wanted. At the same time my primary pursuits (software exec and writer) presented few, if any, new relationship prospects. I was like a man sleepwalking through the wilderness, possessing neither a compass nor flashlight; hell I wasn’t even aware that I was… Read more »
Regarding Stingray’s comment on the failure of the nice guy to motivate desire, something even women would deny if stopped in the street, recall the recent survey that showed 67% of married women would rather read a book or cut flowers or stare at television — than do their man. (This is after they’ve locked him down, of course.) This fact has been assigned all sorts of self-justifying euphemisms by the intelligentsia. My favorite is the use of the term “compassionate sex”, which we are to believe is the natural evolution of desire post-monogamy. It is *supposed* to replace passionate… Read more »
Man, was I a “promise-keeping” chump. Getting served fixed that — popped about every single balloon. A decade later I’m not even sure they’re all popped yet. Always alarming to wonder if one still doesn’t know what one doesn’t know.
Say Rollo,
If you wanted more proof of your “women in the locker room” angle, the
gamergate scandal is something else. I recommend everybody check this out, the sheer amount of corruption and hypocrisy involved is hard to believe.
A quick overview:
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-London/2014/09/01/Lying-Greedy-Promiscuous-Feminist-Bullies-are-Tearing-the-Video-Game-Industry-Apart
Watch the Quinnspiracy Theory videos by InternetAristocrat to get more details:
https://www.youtube.com/user/InternetAristocrat
And check out the responses, an insane amout of corruption involved.
http://i.picpar.com/s9cb.jpg
Would have emailed you this, didn’t find a link for it.
@BuenaVista, This fact has been assigned all sorts of self-justifying euphemisms by the intelligentsia. My favorite is the use of the term “compassionate sex”, which we are to believe is the natural evolution of desire post-monogamy. My favorite is “Mismatched Libidos”. ‘Mismatched Libidos’ is the first trope women will defer to, and properly conditioned men will adopt about their wives, at the first sign of sexual indifference after marriages. I read this shit in damn near every DeadBedrooms subreddit thread. Funny how well matched couples’ libidos are when they’re turning out urgent marathon fuck sessions at every opportunity before they… Read more »
Note regarding Athol Kay – I believe he is almost a foot taller than his wife, so right from the start he’s got quite a bit of biologically based tingle generation in his partnership dynamic,
“There is no Alpha with a side of Beta, there is only the man who’s genuine concern is first for himself, the man who prepares and provisions for himself, the man who maintains Frame to the point of arrogance because that’s who he is and what he genuinely merits. There is only the Man who improves his circumstance for his own benefit, and then, by association and merit, the benefit of those whom he loves and befriends. That’s the Man who Just Gets It.” This little summary alone was worth writing the article for. Something to be ready daily. David… Read more »
@DBM, A well written post but I think you confused “character” with game. Game is about understanding signals, creating signals, and escalating socio-sexual interactions. When one has “game” they also have underlying emotional, intellectual, and confident characteristics. Human beings might be pretty, but they’re still apes. Game is also about social awareness and status. Generally speaking, game enhances arousal in the minds of women because it presents a formidable masculine man. Agreed, however, once a Man internalizes Game it becomes part of his character. It seems to me that you’re throwing in your lot with the “looks are all that… Read more »
“Mismatched libidos”: why stop there?
Honey, it’s not that I got fat and you didn’t and there’s something wrong, we just have “mismatched food appetites.”
Honey, it’s not that I get drunk every night, and you want to discuss Kant or play scrabble, we just have “mismatched entertainment appetites.”
Honey, your income is insufficient to fund the gap in our “mismatched lifestyle appetites.”
It goes on, and on, and on. “What I do or what I want is what you will accept. If not, you are not accepting me as a rich and complex person, you hater.”
Rollo, what’s your advice (if any) to your teenage daughter when she enters the world of dating? What about to women who think of themselves as “nice girls” (yes, I know there’s no such thing) who want to marry and have children with the perceived “good guy”? I mean, after reading all this, what’s a woman to do?
Rollo, excellent post, as always. A few thoughts: While I appreciate your perspective and highly astute analysis, I also appreciate that we have been living in a virtual vacuum of masculine examples for the last forty years, the kind of examples that would help a man “just get it” on his own. Through no fault of their own, a whole generation of men are waking up to the truth of their own interests and the deceptions that have been purported upon them in order to control them financially and sexually. “Just getting it” isn’t an option for them. They have… Read more »
In my late teens to early twenties I was the nice guy. There was no conscious effort to be so , just the conditioning of friends family and TV. There were two times when two different girls basically told me the same thing. ” You’re perfect. You’re just the most sweet and wonderful guy… and what ever happens… don’t you ever change. ” I was too naive at the time to realize I was being dumped with those words while they went off to chase badboy cock. Though, I’m sure if the technology were available they would’ve had me encased… Read more »
If the “formerly red pill blogger” you are referring to is Athol Kay, then I disagree with your assessment of him. He has come to reject the alpha = strength and beta = weakness view and now sees alpha and beta as two different suites of attributes both of which are necessary for a successful long term relationship. So he has a different paradigm then yours; one which I think both better and healthier. He’s basing this off of the research of Helen Fisher. Alpha = psycho-sexual strength and attractiveness = dopamine. Beta = emotional health and commitment = oxytocin.… Read more »
Does AF/BB really happen in practice? While the woman would mate with the alpha, does she really end up with a child to be raised by the beta? I suppose she could try to trick the beta, but you would think he would figure that out, and it would have to be a pretty low beta to accept the woman with a child because he had no other options for sex. There is cuckolding that happens, of course. But today the main way this is playing out is serially, due to the widespread ability to avoid pregnancy. So, women are… Read more »
As Jack Donovan states in THE WAY OF MEN there’s a difference between being a “good man” and being “good at being a man”.
There is also the personal context of women’s self-perceived SMV and how this affects their arousal and attraction incentives with regards to the men they can realistically breed or pair-bond with.
@Rollo. But this doesn’t turn off the arousal or attraction the woman might have, it just gives them less incentive to try as hard to be attractive to a male the female thinks is unattainable. They would still jump at the chance if it came to them more often then not.
Confidence is the basics of game, looks are the basics of confidence far more often then not. Therefore looks are far more important to your game then study of game theory. End of story. Hit the gym gentleman.
@s.r. There was a time I would recommend MMSL to married men to start them down a red pill path in the hopes it would help them unplug in their marriages – I can’t endorse that now. Athol’s primer was (and still is) a good resource for coming to terms with the red pill after a man’s married into a blue pill marriage, but I would argue that Athol’s message has now changed to the point that I doubt he’d agree with many of the same red pill tenets he himself proposed in the primer. MMSL is his primary revenue… Read more »
@Ian, Men already in LTRs before the Red Pill need a transitional meme through which they can achieve the internalization of their positive masculinity, and for many “Beta with a side of Alpha” is an achievable, believable goal. I appreciate what you’re getting at, but lets put it this way, guys don’t seek out the manosphere because they’re getting too much pussy by being ‘Nice Guys’ (or even ‘good’ guys) with so much Beta-sensitive oxytocin Game that they have to ask for advice on how to let so many girls down easy when they reject them. No, they’re seeking out… Read more »
“Evan Mark Katz, Aunt Giggles, Mark Manson and regrettably Athol Kay have simply repurposed the red pill to serve their brands and the Feminine Imperative.” I agree about Walsh. I used to think that she was good for data dumps but now I don’t even trust that. She has abandoned the core Red Pill Truth; ie that woman are wired to respond to male psycho-sexual dominance. I never followed Katz and as far as I know Manson was a PUA who is now trying to sell “inner game” crap. So I agree with those three but not about Athol. He… Read more »
@Beunavista, Great comments. your personal anecdote helps balance the theory of Rollo’s stuff w/ real world application.
Thanks Ian this about sums it up:
https://twitter.com/Ianironwood/status/506835146361028608/photo/1
@DBM from Rollo’s “Looks Count” post Consider that greater than 66% of people in western society are overweight (33% are morbidly obese). So it stands to reason that 2/3rd of the guys seeking out the community in order to change their lives, outlook and sexual prospects are going to be struggling with obesity from the outset. Now also consider the preferred belief among guys that looks, at least, matter less than personality, Game, etc. in female attraction. This is NOT a coincidence. For these guys it takes more effort to change their bodies than to change their minds. Being the… Read more »
That’s why learning pick up is the ultimate paradox. Also MGTOW is a paradox as well. Men who are truly and genuinely alpha are guys who do what they want for the benefit of themselves and not because it will get women to approve of them. Men who make pussy or sex an intention seem to find it most because they find who who also want sex. It’s not about who likes them or approves of them. It’s finding women who are interested in sex with you. Because you want sex. Men who look for attention or validation are playing… Read more »
Women should only ever be a complement to a Man’s life – never the focus of it.
@LiveFearless your story is inspiring! I wouldn’t say anything you’ve done is “selfish,” there is such a thing as taking care of yourself so that you can do well at anything in life. Even biblically you’re supposed to “love your neighbor **as you love yourself.**” You have to love yourself enough (which is a kind of necessary selfishness) in order to be able to love others. You’re story is amazing – congratulations!
“I wish I could freeze him in time so he’d be the same guy and waiting for me”
Oh, but honey, you won’t be the same, will you?
Guys like this often get inoculated by BPD trainwreck nightmares (poor guy linked in Curious Man’s post is textbook).
Of course they won’t be the same after that. And they’ll smell the likes of you from a mile away.
I agree with MMSL becoming something else other than red pill, I left that place a while ago. You can be alpha all the time, good alpha’s are not mean or abusive you just have to always hold your frame and show strength and leadership.Trying to ix in beta will only make people resort to their old beta behaviors.
@Rollo: “There was a time I would recommend MMSL to married men to start them down a red pill path in the hopes it would help them unplug in their marriages – I can’t endorse that now…. Athol’s primer was (and still is) a good resource for coming to terms with the red pill after a man’s married into a blue pill marriage,” Let me propose an alternative to Athol Kay (May Peace Be Upon Him). We discussed his feminine influenced change in attitude over at TRP: http://en-us.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/2dr8n7/put_a_fork_in_it_mmsl_has_officially_sold_out_to/ Our very own Ian Underwood has an alternative. He wrote a couple… Read more »
Status, affluence, Game, social & emotional intelligence, creative intelligence and many other factors are elements in ‘attraction’ and certainly accentuate ‘arousal’. A good looking guy displaying masculine dominance and benefiting from social proof will always outclass the good looking guy without those accentuators. Physicality is the driving force behind a women’s raw, unfiltered, sexual selection. It reigns as king for a short-term mating strategy, which is the current mating strategy that is being heavily favored as the West turns more r-selected. Many of the factors you have listed come into consideration, AFTER THE FACT, of physical attraction (at least via… Read more »
“Athol’s primer was (and still is) a good resource for coming to terms with the red pill after a man’s married into a blue pill marriage, but I would argue that Athol’s message has now changed to the point that I doubt he’d agree with many of the same red pill tenets he himself proposed in the primer. “MMSL is his primary revenue source now, and as such he’s got to compromise that message to accommodate the women he’s (necessarily) allowed into his previously male-space in order to preserve his ‘brand’.” That’s the heart of it. Athol used to offer… Read more »
What Athol’s rebranded approach essentially amounts to now is negotiating desire by appealing to women’s reason.
He’s not doing anything Dr. Phil or any other mainstream marriage counselor doesn’t get paid for. The approach presumes all actors are rational agents who can come to the table and negotiate the terms of a ‘her needs’ (first) / ‘his needs’ arrangement that will result in a co-equal Alpha-Beta balanced marriage.
Does he still even promote the Captain – First Officer idea now? It seems at odds with what I’ve read of his lately.
Such women can’t handle the fact that good looking alpha men make them wet; and their husbands and beta BFs….don’t They cannot handle the fact that they loved it when good looking attractive men fucked them hard; and that they hate it when their husbands or beta boyfriends make love to them.
Game doesn’t arouse sexual desire. In my younger years I was dragged to nightclubs and to other vagina-dens by my friends and not once did I ever see a guy game a woman. Nearly all of these guys weren’t ”gaming” women above their looks-range. No, they were decent-looking guys who were trying to get some from average and below average women. On the other hand, I’ve met many a near-retarded Tall/handsome/rich guy who couldn’t beat women off his case. As one of the posters has said so far, height is everything. I’ve also met men who were douchebags or had… Read more »
“She wants traits that are composites of Disney characters she’s seen in her lifetime.”
You have it backwards. Disney characters are made up to be what she wants, from a time long before Disney.
And ultimately what she wants is beauty and the beast.
And ultimately what she wants is beauty and the beast.
This reminds me, every woman I’ve spoken to found the beast far more attractive than the prince at the end of that movie. Him transforming was actually a let down at the end.
@Stingray, well, women do have a thing for getting bent over by Bigfoot you know…
http://www.salon.com/2014/01/23/bigfoot_sexy_erotica_author_explains/
Alpha Fucks / Alpha Fucks
“The approach presumes all actors are rational agents who can come to the table and negotiate the terms of a ‘her needs’ (first) / ‘his needs’ arrangement that will result in a co-equal Alpha-Beta balanced marriage.”
Maybe. If that’s the case, then the man’s “rational” position is: Dread, and DNA testing of all children born to the marriage. The “rational” position for men has to be “give me what I want, or I’ll get what I want elsewhere and end the marriage”.
@Deti, Observing a process will change that process. http://therationalmale.com/2013/12/30/secret-of-the-red-pill/ If your purpose is to alienate and/or correct a woman you have no interest in by pointing out the brutal truths of being Game-aware, that’s certainly your prerogative, but you will never get into a woman’s pants or be more attractive to her by explaining the Game you are engaged in with her (or hope to be). This is where Athol’s (as well as Tucker Max’s I should add) rebranded approach will alway fall short – genuine, organic desire is the result of playing the Game with women, never explaining it… Read more »
“If I had to explain it in more spiritual or psychological terms, I would say that women want a man to be strong enough in his own direction (pursuing goals) that he will not be distracted by her. Because if he can be distracted by her, then he is not strong enough to achieve his goals. And if he is not strong enough to achieve his goals, then she cannot indirectly reap the benefits of him doing so.” Patrice O’Neal (RIP) summed this up with the phrase: “Men want to win, women want a winner.” A man who makes a… Read more »
@Siirtyon “I have never said that looks are everything. What I do say, is that, the preference for good looks far outweighs any other factor in sexual choice in this SMP (ESPECIALLY for young women), but I have also said that women do take into account personality once a long-term mating strategy has developed.” The only reason I can suss for this weird adaption you have is you may be hanging around with some ridiculously good looking dudes. In that context, this whole thing you have may make sense, as a woman chooses the best of whats in front of… Read more »
@Stingray, well, women do have a thing for getting bent over by Bigfoot you know…http://www.salon.com/2014/01/23/bigfoot_sexy_erotica_author_explains/Alpha Fucks / Alpha Fucks
Rollo, can you please psychologically explain this
No, no I wont.
Rollo,
Bigfoot, dinosaurs and apparently dragon beasts and centaurs as well.
Big, strong, uncaring beasts (until she tames him with her feminine strength and, as yet, unfound beauty). Imagine that. . . .
Have we all forgotten about Corey Worthington?
@Rollo Tomassi: Yes, he does still promote the Captain – First Officer model. @deti: I’ve noticed a much greater shift in the MMSL forums than in Athol’s blog posts. As you said, ” What invariably happens when you combine men and women in one such forum, and women are allowed a considerable amount of control over the overall frame of the discussions, it breaks down in the name of “tolerance” and “good taste”, etc. ” Once more women started participating in the MMSL forum, shaming and accusations of neglecting the wife’s needs/feelings started entering the conversations on a regular basis.… Read more »
” . . .every woman I’ve spoken to found the beast far more attractive than the prince at the end . . .”
The story is told in that order for a reason.
“Big, strong, uncaring beasts (until she tames him with her feminine strength . . .”
And they lived not too unhappily until she got bored of her toy dog.
“women neither want nor expect that balance in the same man to begin with.”
They know they cannot control the alpha. He has proven this.
They know they can control the beta. He has proven this.
@Siirtyrion Indeed. Looks Matter. Thankfully a guy can become a ripped MAN with super low body fat and lean firm toned muscle. And, no, I was not born with ‘skinny’ genes. Quite the opposite. As Rollo wrote “In the land of the 4 foot man, the 5 foot man is the arousing Alpha – until the 6 foot man arrives.” Forget the six foot man, be the equivalent of 6’7″ man by being ripped at whatever height ya got. Trends in fitness are leaning toward more obesity. It’s unlikely there will be a super flood of ripped men to compete… Read more »
Norwalk 280
off topic, was there ever a post about or containing elements of “brownie points” was driving down the country today listening to the wireless and some guy playing a request for his girl and the dj says thats worth a few brownie points.. My girl goes awwwwwwwww, i immediatley thought social convention.. oh well
@Jimmy
http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/14/appreciation/
The juice isn’t worth the squeeze.
>>Rollo, can you please psychologically explain this. >No, no I wont. [cough]wimpout![cough] Fundamentally, it’s evolutionary biodetermination again. Females provide the genetic baseline; males provide the genetic variance. Thus, males tend to be attracted to a narrow range of particular characteristics. The less that males are attracted to that genetic baseline and the more they’re attracted to variations from it, the less healthy/functional and more damaged/dysfunctional their offspring end up, and evolution does the rest. Complementarily, females tend to be attracted to a wider range of more variant characteristics. Women want the man who stands out from the background of males… Read more »
@Nathan & Acksiom
RE: Cum for Bigfoot *sigh*
Acksiom had a good take on this, however, and I’m just throwing this conjecture out there for discussion, that particular tingle dynamic of total sexual submission to the physically overpowering beast made me think of this recent article:
http://www.nbcnews.com/science/science-news/neanderthals-humans-may-have-had-sex-millennia-study-n185311
http://guardianlv.com/2014/08/mystery-humans-apparently-helped-spice-up-sex-lives-of-ancient-hominins/
Just saying…that ‘genetic variance’ drive might be more deeply evolved than we imagine.
Heheh…
This is where Athol’s (as well as Tucker Max’s I should add) rebranded approach will alway fall short – genuine, organic desire is the result of playing the Game with women, never explaining it to them. Rollo, Great point. I think a good analogy would be someone explaning a magic trick as it is performed. It ruins the experience. I must admit this is one of the more perplexing and odd things I’ve noticed among some “red pill” guys, the desire to want to explain it intellectually to women they are sexually involved or trying to be sexually involved with.… Read more »
That’s the heart of it. Athol used to offer free advice and blogging primarily for men. His “Male Attraction Plan” morphed into the “Mindful Attraction Plan” so it could be sold to both men AND women to improve their marriages. deti, I think one thing that has been amply demonstrated is that trying to run things as a business model that provides your livelihood or even that you are just trying to monetize as a side business is inherently corrupting (Athol, HUS, Manson, EMK). When it comes to this stuff, truth cannot coexist with maximizing profits. But down deep, what’s… Read more »
Rollo, This is a truly brilliant article! “Women should only ever be a complement to a Man’s life – never the focus of it.” Indeed! And women also want to hero-worship and serve* a man who is on a Great Mission. A woman really doesn’t want to follow a “leader” who is following her butt. * Saul Alinsky’s “Rules for Radicals: A Pragmatic Primer for Realistic Radicals” talks about how dedicated followers are created through unapologetic expectation of loyalty and hard work. . . Siirtyrion, As a past critic, I wanted to acknowledge your well-written and interesting comments. . .… Read more »
I’ve been reading MMSL since it’s inception and remain a big fan of Athol Kay. Something I’ve seen over there again and again, especially early on: Men in Blue Pill marriages would show up, absorb the Red Pill, run a detailed self improvement plan for 6 months to a year, learn game, get in shape, upgrade their wardrobe, start flirting with other women and garnering IOIs, seriously throttle back all Beta behaviors at home while increasing overall Alpha… and for a short time their wives would start to fuck their brains out. And then they’d start crying about being treated… Read more »
@Rollo – Brilliant post. @stuttie – you make a very good observation. Men want sex all the time, so if you are stuck in an LTR with one woman we are being trained to Try and Balance: Alpha Fux / Beta Bux on one side with Arousal Preparation vs. Provisioning Preparation on the other. And unless you know where she is in the cycle there is no way to understand her. The ONLY answer is to be ALPHA 100% of the time, fuck her, do your own thing and let others deal with the emotional fall out. i.e let her… Read more »
@ eon – agree.
@ Max – Once in an LTR this app would be handy
http://venturebeat.com/2008/12/29/an-iphone-app-to-keep-track-of-your-girlfriends-menstrual-cycles-yes-you-read-that-right/
When out sarging for new pussy, it’s a lottery…..a matter of the right look, the right Game, at the right time of the cycle.
@Rollo – “women want control”
Which is where women fall down. They’ve been conditioned by modern society to want control, yet they only get the real tingles when they’re not in control.
Which is why (I think I said to @stingray once) that the bonsai doesn’t give a damn. It does what it wants, and might – if a woman is lucky – get temporarily loaned out to a woman to determine if she’s fit for purpose.
@Siirtyrion I will throw a wrinkle into your comment. All of what you write is 100% correct. Females are conditioned to seek the “best” genes yet have accepted the best most available mate given the monogamistic nature of society for the past 10,000 years. Here is my wrinkle just for shits and giggles. Even though homo sapiens was “imprinted” quite a while ago with attraction vectors, I believe ecological factors have caused selection that have made that “choosiness” in attraction far more prevalent in Western European and hence, North American and Australian women. I feel (without any mathematical modeling to… Read more »
“Then likewise compare other regions that are considered to have “nice women”, Philippines, Thailand, Russia, Ukraine, all regions that lacked “trade” and cities.”
You know why they use pesos in the Philippines?
All this worrying about women and their hypergamy. Life really isn’t that hard if you’re in good health. 1. Buid a Spartan physique. You would have to be deformed to look ugly as a Spartan. Do wrestling, judo or jiu jitsu and pay attention to your food. 2. Be passionate about your life. It can be your career, your family, your sport, Dungeons and Dragons. Women don’t care as long as you aren’t a deadbeat. 3. You need love and respect. Being ‘Beta’ is about unconditional giving without getting love and respect in return. Being ‘Alpha’ is about setting personal… Read more »
Reading the bit about ovulation and selecting for good genes and comfort depending on what stage she is in, would birth control mess with these signals as well and how?
BV: ““Mismatched libidos”: why stop there? Honey, it’s not that I got fat and you didn’t and there’s something wrong, we just have “mismatched food appetites.” Honey, it’s not that I get drunk every night, and you want to discuss Kant or play scrabble, we just have “mismatched entertainment appetites.” Honey, your income is insufficient to fund the gap in our “mismatched lifestyle appetites.” It goes on, and on, and on. “What I do or what I want is what you will accept. If not, you are not accepting me as a rich and complex person, you hater.” This is… Read more »
Joe Rogan said something similar to the penultimate paragraph in a recent podcast … “Be the guy you pretend to be when you’re trying to get laid.”
MMSL corrupted message and form: I turned a buddy onto Rollo, Donovan, MMSL etc. about a year ago. He’s a smart guy, lapsed seminarian now hospital admin, living in the Bible Belt and married to a biology prof. He loves being married to her and caring for their three girls. After 15 years he was getting it 1-2x a month, but only after she boozed up and went starfish on him. Among the other complexities, he was tired of drinking but if he wouldn’t drink with her, she wouldn’t drink, and … not even the starfish experience. He got a… Read more »
On the discussing of RP stuff with civilians, male or female: I’m recent to this way of thought, and initially I was stunned and amazed at how truthfully it explained so many things. So I explained it to my better friends, male and female, and was met with shock! horror! predictable shaming! and the rest. Again, these are people I might have known for decades and who care about me. I come down on the side of this issue requiring discretion. My view is it’s healthier to “show, not tell.” The most I’ll say is “women want dominance, protection, and… Read more »
Here is perhaps the most erudite and funny analysis I’ve read on the pain of being an invisible “good guy”, with a nuclear carpet bombing of the current feminist trope that ‘badass v. nice guy’ dichotomies are a production of the MRA/PUA/RP world, and just reflect misogynist entitlement.
Like a good liberal he says he’s not really into Game, just that Game explains the world, including his own.
I’m not really a ha-ha big laugher, but he had me losing it repeatedly.
http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/
I was at MMSL for about two days, when I first discovered the sphere. Heartiste was first, and then I went to MMSL. Kind of one extreme to the other. It seemed a very touchy/feely type place to me. And I’m kind of a prick. Or…clam. A happy clam, but a clam.
Oh crap…didn’t see it was on a new page and thought it had deleted me due to language. But I also discovered a new code to get around that!
@Kate Interesting hypothesis and analysis in your post above. Do you think the mechanization and industrialization of western civilization has anything to do with the changes in people and the disparities you reference between the cultures? I agree there may be some genetic influence that you attribute these changes and disparities to. However, the bicycle, swimming pool, skate board, pogo stick, trampoline, etc. has been widely replaced with X-Box, TV, Ipad, computer, etc. The human metabolisim operates in a narrow range that will not facilitate the obesity we see. Numerous studies have proven that obesity is related to diet first,… Read more »
“There is no Alpha with a side of Beta, there is only the man who’s genuine concern is first for himself, the man who prepares and provisions for himself, the man who maintains Frame to the point of arrogance because that’s who he is and what he genuinely merits. There is only the Man who improves his circumstance for his own benefit, and then, by association and merit, the benefit of those whom he loves and befriends. That’s the Man who Just Gets It.” You’re kidding, right? That sounds like the man who ‘gets it’ til he’s old and alone.… Read more »
You men here NEED to ask yourselves if you even like women. If you don’t then no amount of red-pill bullshit is gonna help.
Women are human beings just like you. Start there. Or maybe start by examining your misogynistic vitriol. You all come across as knee-jerk haters.
If you don’t actually like women then I suggest you all come out of the closet and just start jerking each other off for real. I mean that’s what you’re all here for — to boost your egos with the other losers.