Whenever I consult teenage guys or young adult men I’m always reminded about how my ‘Game’ has changed over the course of my lifetime. The 17 year old Rollo Tomassi would be be appalled at the mindset of the 46 year old Rollo Tomassi.
Granted, much of that shock would probably be attributed to the lack of experience my younger self had with regards to female nature, human nature and, if I’m honest, I suffered from the same naiveté most young men do when it comes to judging people’s character. In fact, at the time, my belief was that I shouldn’t ever judge anyone’s character, nor did I, nor should anyone really, have the right to.
Part of that assumption was from an undeveloped religious learning, but more so it was due to a youthful idealism I held – I’d been conditioned to believe not only that you “can’t judge a book by its cover”, but also that you shouldn’t do so, and ought to be ashamed for considering it.
I’m flattered that people might think I’m some phenomenal interpreter of psychology, the nature of women, intergender relations and a model upon which men should aspire to in order to get laid and still have a great (now 18 year) marriage. It has not always been so.
If I have any credibility now it’s not due to my getting everything miraculously right, but because I had everything so horribly wrong more often than not.
One of the most valuable lessons I learned in my time studying psychology and personality studies is that personality is alway in flux. Who you are today is not who you will be in another few years. Hopefully that’s for the better after learning something and applying it towards your own personal progress, but it could equally be a traumatic experience that changes you for the worse.
For better or worse, personality shifts – sometimes slowly, sometimes suddenly – and while you may retain aspects of your personality, mannerisms, talents, past experiences and beliefs into the next iteration of yourself in a new phase of your life, rest assured, you will not be who you are now at any other time.
Game Changes
I’m sorry if this sounds all fortune cookie to you at the moment, but it’s a necessary preface to understanding how Game changes for men as their life situations and circumstances change during different phases of their lives and the shifts in their own personalities and learned perceptions change as they age.
It’s an easy step for me to assume that, were I to find myself single tomorrow, I wouldn’t approach Game in any degree as I would were I the 26 year old version of myself. Indeed, the primary reason I’ve involved myself in expanding the Preventative Medicine series into the next volume of The Rational Male is to help men at different phases of their own development understand what to expect from women (and themselves) during these periods of their life.
About two weeks ago I broached the subject of how Game should be a universal knowledge-tool for the everyman. My intent in Game and Circumstance was to shine some light on how Game and red pill awareness is (should be) a benefit for men regardless of their circumstance.
As I expected, the comparisons of Looks vs. Game was the inevitable discussion in the comment thread, because the presumption is that a man’s most evident condition is how he looks and how women are or are not aroused / attracted to their perception of him. I’ve written more about this Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks arousal dynamic than I care to review at the moment, but suffice it to say I do place a high importance on a man’s physical bearing.
However, my intent wasn’t to engage in a debate over the importance of looks, but rather that Game and red pill awareness is applicable for men of every social or personal condition – even the short, pudgy guy who empties the trash in your office. He may not have the potential to enjoy sex with a swimsuit model, but the tenets of Game can help him improve his life within his own circumstances.
Game Beyond PUA
When I was writing The Rational Male I specifically wrote and published a post on the Evolution of Game to be included in the book in order to demystify an impression of Game which I still think people (particularly the blue pill uninitiated), sometimes intentionally, misconstrue as some magical panacea to their ‘girl problems’. My definition was thus:
For the unfamiliar, just the word ‘Game’ seems to infer deception or manipulation. You’re not being real if you’re playing a Game, so from the outset we’re starting off from a disadvantage of perception. This is further compounded when attempting to explain Game concepts to a guy who’s only ever been conditioned to ‘just be himself‘ with women and how women allegedly hate guys “who play games” with them. As bad as that sounds, it’s really in the explanation of how Game is more than the common perception that prompts the discussion for the new reader to have it explained for them.
At its root level Game is a series of behavioral modifications to life skills based on psychological and sociological principles to facilitate intersexual relations between genders.
Game has more applications than just in the realm of intergender relations, but this is my best estimation of Game for the uninitiated. Game is the practical application of a new knowledge and increasingly broader awareness of intergender relations – often referred to, for convenience, as Red Pill awareness, by myself and others in the broader manosphere. Game begins with red pill awareness and using that awareness to develop Game.
The body of infield evidence collected by 15 years of PUA is far more reliable and valid than anything social science has produced on seduction – Nick Krauser
As I’ve written in the past, everyone has Game. Every guy you know right now has some idea, methodology or system of belief by which he thinks he can best put himself into a position of relating to, and becoming intimate with, a woman.
From even the most rank Beta plug-in to the 14 year old high school freshmen boy has some notion about what he, and by extension all men, should do in order to become intimate with a girl. I described this a bit in Beta Game where I outlined the Beta plan of identifying with women’s “needs” and adopting a feminine-primary mental point of origin in order to become more like the target(s) of his affection.
What ‘formalzed’ Game comes down to is what genuinely works for the betterment of his life. Men don’t seek out the manosphere because their Beta Game works so well for them.
I’ll admit, this was my own Game when I was in my late teens. Like most properly conditioned young men,I subscribed to the idea that men needed to be more empathetic and sensitive to women’s experience (rather than putting priority on his own) as the most deductive means to getting a girlfriend who’d appreciate my uniqueness for being so ‘in tune’ with the feminine.
If you’d have asked me at the time (the mid 80’s), my belief was that the best way to ‘get the girl’ was to take women at their word, use their “advice“, be their friend, make her comfortable, sacrifice your own (chauvinist) self-importance and support her importance, and mold your incorrect male self into a more perfect feminine ideal. The idea was that the lesser you made yourself, the more you made of her, and the more likely she was to reciprocate intimacy in appreciation.
That was my Game up until I learned through trial and painful error that women loath a man who needs to be instructed on how to actually be more attractive to women. I didn’t understand that by my subscribing to this spoon-fed feminization Game and overtly advocating for it I was only advertising to the very girls I wanted that I Just Didn’t Get It.
This was simply the first stage of Game changing for me, and I’m fairly certain that you’d read a similar story from most of the manosphere’s heaviest hitters. I’m peripherally familiar with the early histories of the likes of Roosh, Nick Krauser and even Mystery, so I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to say that the Game they practice today would be foreign to their younger selves.
When I moved into my rock star 20’s I began practicing a new form of Game, one based on social proof and demonstrating higher value (DHV).
Of course I had no idea I was practicing any Game at the time. I had reinvented myself and my identity shifted into that of a guy who was Spinning Plates, being more self-concerned and enjoying the benefits of that social proof and DHV; but if you’d asked me what I’d done to effect that change, or how my Game was affected by it, I wouldn’t have been able to give you an answer then – Game was just instinctual for me.
Now in my married years, as a husband and the father of a teenage daughter, and my professional life in the liquor and casino world where I interact with beautiful women on a weekly basis, I still employ Game when I don’t realize I am.
However, that Game is the compounded, internalized result of what I’ve learned and used since the days I believed in the “be nice for girls to like you” teenage Game. Amused Mastery, Command Presence and a few other principles became much easier to employ as a mature man, but also a new grasp of how women’s lives have a more or less predictable pattern to them.
Thanks to my time studying behavioral psychology I understand the methods women use to prompt and provoke men (shit tests). Thanks to my red pill awareness and simple understand of how women’s biology influences hypergamy I now understand why they do so – and more importantly, how to avoid the traps of falling into the worst aspects of women’s dualistic sexual strategy.
All of this influences my ‘Game’ in the now. As before, I don’t play a constant, conscious game of mental chess in my dealings with women (and even the men in my social and professional life), I just live it.
So, in closing, it’s important to consider that the concept of Game you might be struggling with now was probably some other man’s experience before you encountered it. What is Game for me at 46, will most likely not have the exact same utility for me at 56, but if I stay sharp and learn along the way I’ll develop a new Game for that phase of life.
In Roosh’s most recent book, he has a quote in it that struck me (I paraphrase): There are a lot of men who tell me they wish they knew back then what they know now, but in all likelihood that knowledge wouldn’t serve them as well as they believe it would. They’d simply make new mistakes (and hopefully learn from them) based on the things they never had any experience of in the now.
There is always additional knowledge a man can know even when he possess the highest level of knowledge.
[…] Game Changers […]
There are a lot of men who tell me they wish they knew back then what they know now, but in all likelihood that knowledge wouldn’t serve them as well as they believe it would. One reason for this would also be their ability (or lack thereof) to actively apply this knowledge. Knowing about, say, pre-selection for example wouldn’t necessarily help an 18-year old man who has no money, no female “acquaintances” he can pull in to boost his status and no status of his own. While the knowledge of socio-sexual behaviors of men and women would be useful/helpful, he… Read more »
The me at age 17 would be sickened and disgusted by the me of now – he was so thoroughly Beta-ised.
The me now simply accepts the current person for what works.
The me of the future, I have no clue about. He’ll be interesting though.
There is always additional knowledge a man can know even when he possess the highest level of knowledge.
a new grasp of how women’s lives have a more or less predictable pattern to them.
So, do you count Tucker’s abandonment of Game as some kind of Beta Game?
Just to be clear, you’re advocating Build-a-Better-Beta when it works for the man?
This is a bit long but I’ll demystify “game” for you guys here. Seeing as how this is a red pill blog, I’m pretty sure some will appreciate it: I’ve stated before that human females aren’t that different than males with respect to their mating criteria, in that their choices are strongly weighted for physical features (and always exclusively aesthetic signs on their short-term criteria). The danger is that these scammers (more specifically Game PUAs) pretend to be benefactors creating a pseudoscience who “supposedly” have nothing to gain from dispensing their “knowledge” (onto some unwary men); while they are making… Read more »
@Sirtyrion, most likely evolutionarily the big guy just dragged her to the cave and had his way with her.
@jf12:
Either way, It still shows that women want the biggest, strongest, most aesthetically appealing men because these overt traits are honest signals of his genetic stock. Also, his ability to over power her (and other men) display his worthiness of being her mate.
re: other men. Other men don’t actually matter. The second of the two big lies about women that psychologists and others in this field are furiously spinning is that women care what men think i.e. women care what other men think about a man. These lies are useful smokescreen/chaff, for the time being.
Here’s something else I’ve written to keep in mind: I would also like to question ‘shit-testing’, as any kind of a fitness test. In order for a fitness test to be reliable, it must screen for ‘honest’ signals. And in order for a signal to be ‘honest’, it must entail high and differentiable costs while communicating some quantity of evolutionary/fitness value (thus, resisting falsification). The problem with the shit-test-as-a-fitness-test, theory, is that it fails to specify what quantities of evolutionary value a shit-test is effective in screening for (in a way that eliminates obvious confounders). Is it a question of… Read more »
re: shit tests. I’ve come to recognize that a woman’s shit tests are 99.44% merely an invitation to force her to stop, to show her who’s the boss of her. I’m not saying I’ve acted on that recognition.
Consider: “A new study of romantic attraction by two Northwestern psychologists suggests that men and women are equally inspired by physical attraction.” http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/stories/2008/02/partners.html “When it comes to romantic attraction men primarily are motivated by good looks and women by earning power. At least that’s what men and women have been saying for a long time. Based on research that dates back several decades, the widely accepted notion permeates popular culture today. But those sex differences didn’t hold up in a new in-depth study of romantic attraction undertaken by two Northwestern University psychologists. In short, the data suggest that whether you’re… Read more »
Rollo, please delete if you don’t want to feel like you’re inadvertently promoting the site linked.
http://www.thematinggrounds.com/the-mating-grounds-podcast-episode-15-dr-christopher-ryan-interview/
But note the way that Tucker is advocating Respect Game and Nice Guy Game not merely as more *moral* but pretending that they are *effective* techniques.
To know at 17 what I now know though game…would have simply validated my behaviour and made me feel better about banging all those chicks. It would have allowed me to simply go further. No doubt I would have abused the knowledge as I always go too far.
cosign agent p.
I probably wouldn’t have felt so guilty about simply giving those college women what they wanted.
@jf12 I’m so disappointed in G. Miller. Tucker Max… has made a job for himself. For a little while. Anyway, the posted prolog to the C. Ryan interview (which I’ll probably not bother listening to) states “Provide a safe, comfortable space where she can trust you, and she’ll let her freak flag fly.” Yeah, the freak flag is high-flying for an approximate 18 – 36 months, then is lowered to half-mast if it stays up much at all. There’ll be a spreadsheet 😉 full of excuses for this — none of which acknowledge that she just wants to switch poles.… Read more »
@ agent p – I agree. I’m fairly certain that if I knew in my 20’s what I know now, I would abuse my power and be spinning top-shelf poon. @ jf12 – that’s why I said before in a previous post that I ‘want’ to be shit tested by women…it just means they want to see how alpha you actually are. @ sirtyroin – are you “demystifying” game or a game denialist? Similar to Rollo, I think up until I unplugged, internalised Game and embraced Red Pill awareness, I had ‘some’ natural alpha traits (physically dominate, athletic prowess, fairly… Read more »
Sirtyrion “Either way, It still shows that women want the biggest, strongest, most aesthetically appealing men because these overt traits are honest signals of his genetic stock. Also, his ability to over power her (and other men) display his worthiness of being her mate.” It is not nearly that simple There are other factors. A hunter that had lots of free time conveyed fitness because he was so good at hunting he could screw around. These days the dregs of society have lots of free time. And there was a study done using game theory (not game pua, but game… Read more »
“Provide a safe, comfortable space where she can trust you, and she’ll let her freak flag fly”
Yeah, because that is exactly how Tucker Max did it…
By spreading safety and comfort all around him, not by being a puerile, drunken douchebag with high social proof at least in some venues…
If it is all about guaranteeing reproductive success and continuing a blood line, women should be evolving to look for intellectual traits in a man. When you consider the recent advancements of machines and artificial intelligence and where they are headed, quality physical genetic traits alone will not get you far.
No where do I see any mention of this in any RP discussion. Maybe it doesn’t matter in humanity’s current state, but it will certainly matter in the near future.
I’m thankful every day I didn’t know game 20 years ago, today I would be married to a woman who ended up divorcing her husband, trafficking drugs and spinning tricks on the side.
Thank sweet merciful Jesus for dodged bullets and game ineptitude.
On a side note, I’m swimming in a sea of desperate single mothers and post wall women, how does one rebuff advances from women in the work place without losing face or causing a commotion? Ignoring them seems to have an opposite effect (another game tenet validated).
“Just to be clear, you’re advocating Build-a-Better-Beta when it works for the man?” I think the build a better beta was about making a beta more alpha/less beta for her enjoyment but not to the point of him becoming too self actualized. Or self realized if that’s the correct term. Don’t want him realizing how much he has going or how much he can have. He might exercise options that don’t include(benefit) her. This is more of build a better life that you live, as opposed to a continuous looking up the correct preplanned audible to the formation the defense… Read more »
[…] Game Changers (The Rational Male) […]
@Johnnycomelately, if you really want to eliminate advances, just lose face and act more beta.
Great post. My own introduction to game was 4 years ago. It’s been a series of successes and setbacks. There are two things I find hardest: 1) the disappointment when I understand the TRUE female nature ie hypergamy, lack of empathy etc —it’s like someone telling you there is no Santa Claus—you want to believe all that bullshit you were fed growing up about how special women are. The reality is much different. 2) The external pressures to conform to a feminist/female imperative. When I refuse to take a girl’s bullshit, when I laugh off or push back on some… Read more »
“but in all likelihood that knowledge wouldn’t serve them as well as they believe it would. ” I partially disagree with this statement. At it’s core Game is the awareness of all women’s central natures. This Red Pill awareness is something that is useful in all stages of a mans life. Being aware of the “feral nature of a woman” is something that most would say has to be experienced not learned. But in many fields like Airline Pilots train “worst case scenarios” constantly in simulation to prepare for the terrible. In actuality the realization that the “worst case scenario”… Read more »
jf12, that’s already a given, I apparently have beta bucks tattooed on my forehead.
Good game does change upon one’s circumstances, but I believe the core principles of it remain the same in any circumstance. This is true because the red pill, for me at least, has not been so much about learning productive behavior nearly as much as it has been about unlearning destructive behavior i.e. beta conditioning. I have learned several new and very productive behaviors via the manosphere, for certain. I have learned much more here about the nature and wiles of female behavior. But most of the insight that I have gathered from this community has felt like permission to… Read more »
Fix Academic Peer Review! by Chris Carleton, published in the Journal of Archaeological Science.
This is a big change from his comments here:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/09/19/the-curse-of-potential/#comment-23078
Will “Sirtyrion” wake up too?
@ Ang Amer
nice analogy, you must be commercial
In view of Roosh’s quote, I believe this sums up in a nutshell why so many young men (18 to 23), but older men too, stay in blue pill mentality rather than opt for red pill adaptation. Even with the aid of blogs of this kind, I would estimate that a high percentage of men, up until a certain point after numerous failures, still disregard the points put forward in favour of listening to the “validity” of what women tell them. In an ideal world, they would have a crystal ball illustrating all the wrong deliverables made. Even if they… Read more »
@Sirtyrion You are an Omega of the first order. Rebutal of your garrulous jibbering’s is entirely unnecessary as your entire dogma is built on foundation’s of porridge.:- You expect women to use and think with logic in their choices and selection process.
The stench of INCEL emits strongly from you.
@ Thug I do not think that this is what he is doing. What he wants is an airtight, science based explanation for female attraction, because otherwise….. well, I dont know what would or would not happen otherwise. The fact that all models are wrong but some are more useful than others apparently eludes him. @Sirtyrion Me no care whether it be totally valid yo, cuz it gets me laid brah ! And gives me a framework for what happened in my life and has an astonishing power to predict by and large how she will react to my actions… Read more »
I am always depressed about my life, i have been cheated upon many times and lost complete trust in relationship, i started to focus on my career and i am trying to make some money
I still feel like loser in life
You will only get what you’ve gotten if you keep doing what you’ve done.
@vikingnorse, re: woe.
Hence you see the need for doing something completely different, amirite?
@vikingnorse
Focusing on your career and making more money can be fulfilling and empowering, but those factors won’t change the nature of your relationships, brother. If you’re depressed due to your poor experiences with women then I would do the hard work of introspection. If you can change the way you view women and yourself, then you can change your relationship dynamics tremendously. It will be hard but it can happen.
@vickingnorse
On the plus side, you picked a good masculine screen name. There is hope for you. Welcome aboard.
Sirtyrion,
remove those self limiting beliefs, profit.
looks beyond symmetry…..DO NOT MATTER. a man is, has, and always will be judged on the continuum of his utility which can be diverse but only are focused on looks if he has no other re-deeming utility.
a woman’s utility is defined by her looks primarily, actions/behaviors/etc second.
really simple, simple concepts here my friend.
Sirtyrion July 30th, 2014 at 5:31 pm “Consider: “A new study of romantic attraction by two…” The phenomenon of women going increasingly for alpha fucks has been dealt with on these pages before. Since various ‘social innovations’ in the last 50 years has resulted in women being much less dependent on beta bucks from any individual man, what part of their dualistic mating strategy remains? It follows predictively from ‘game’ theory, no matter how flawed you may think it is. A general comment for you: Your posts look erudite, but even with considerable parsing on my part, I have difficulty… Read more »
I am continually amazed at the depth of analysis Rollo provides us and with the comments that flesh out his ideas. I think his definition of “game” will become the dictionary definition someday. @jackelbear- I often say Rollo takes a graduate degree to fully understand so allow me to mediate. The take home message he is giving us is that “game” changes with your position in life even for an individual person so it cannot be reduced to a static set of checklists that you can cross off in sequence. Disagree however that knowing then what I know now would… Read more »
I need to correct something I wrote about how a highly rational man might behave: “Of course that hyper-rational orientation might tend to lead by default to trying to negotiate desire or otherwise appeal to a woman’s reason.” The above applies mainly if the man also believes that women are like men. i.e. she is like me and I am swayed by reason, therefore she will be too. So internalizing one of the most basic tenets of game, that men and women are different, gets rid of a major self defeating behavior of highly rational men in relating with women.… Read more »
Bluepillprofessor
July 31st, 2014 at 3:55 pm
Thanks for offering to mediate.
I am able to understand Rollo; it is Sirtyrion’s style that I was complaining about.
In defense of Sirtyrion, I believe men have written here that when a woman has the tingles for an obviously HV man, she will shit test him less until she gets cock. In the long run though…
In related news, peacocking continues to work.
http://thoughtcatalog.com/eric-snapper/2014/07/this-study-tested-if-peacocking-made-men-more-or-less-attractive/
(although certainly better examples could be found) Women tended to rate the peacocks as appearing more adventurous, more confident, and more wealthy, but worse for a long term relationship. Like I said, it still works, perfectly.
Shorter Sirtyrion:
Women’s mating habits are no different from men’s. For short-term fun, women, just like men, will choose predominantly good-looking and sexually adventurous men.
For marriage and family, women, just like men, will look for somebody more sexually restrained and reliable, though still best looking among available options.
Also: if she wants to stay with you, she will stay with you.
Should have read:
“Women’s mating habits are no different from men’s. For short-term fun, women, just like men, will choose predominantly good-looking and sexually adventurous partners.”
Just so we’re all on the same page in this thread, Mart is Barb / Shel the same troll Dalrock had to ban last week.
Feed the troll at your own discretion.
Mart
July 31st, 2014 at 5:25 pm
Should have read:
“Women’s mating habits are no different from men’s. For short-term fun, women, just like men, will choose predominantly good-looking and sexually adventurous **partners**.”
Right. Women and men are the same and heteronormativity is banned.
I realize now why ‘heteronormative’ has been demonized.
Because hetero (different) amongst people is unacceptable to the left. The specter of HBD threatens SJWs’ utopian fantasies.
NOTE: My other comment didn’t post (or it was probably eaten due to the embedded tweet) so if the mod can delete the other one, and keep this one, that will be just fine. @ Ras Ah Gul Post the study. I, myself, have many studies (dozens in fact) that disprove your assertion. I don’t know about you but If I saw multiple studies proving something one way and a single study proving another, I’ll go with the conclusion that the multiple studies affirm. @ LiveFearless “Will ‘Sirtyrion’ wake up too?” Wake up by deluding ones self to the idea… Read more »
Why is mart a ”troll?’ Because he sees game for what it is? A marketing tool for men who want make money from the male desire, or to attract attention like those reddit/redpill casanovas? Red-pillers have worth. They help young men acknowledge the nature of women, but where they fail is that they plant in these young guy’s fragile minds the ridiculous belief that they can get laid. Women’s biology is set in stone. They are wired to only want men who are physically attractive(and what makes a man attractive is height or a handsome face). You can have status… Read more »
Rollo, you said it yourself in your looks topic. From age 14 to age 24 all women care about in a man is how he looks. Now think about it. Why are women who are 14-24 only interested in how hot the guy is? Because daddy is supporting them. Daddy begins to remove his financial support when the woman enters her mid 20s, that is when she enters wallet-seeking mode, the life stage the non-hot guys have a shot at her, that is if the guy doesn’t mind paying out of his eyes for low-quality sloppy seconds. I have met… Read more »
”As for all other doubters, eventually there will come a time where men everywhere will reconcile to the fact that there really is no personal solution to systemic problems – the ones who can only resolve over evolutionary time. The solution that “game” entails comes from steep trade-offs, in that much like females, males can’t have their cake and eat it too – a prosperous population of deferred ecological pressures, without an expectation that this prosperity will increase the mating latitude of females (dramatically perturbing the breeding population, to the point of near evolutionary instability). I hold science, much like… Read more »
Let’s clarify a few things: Rollo gets laid because he’s handsome. I also have all my hair at 46. From age 14 to age 24 all women care about in a man is how he looks. Been there, wrote that: http://therationalmale.com/2012/10/08/balancing-sexual-pluralism/ Short Terms As I outlined in Schedules of Mating, hypergamy dictates women secure (commitment from) the best male exhibiting the traits of both genetics (short term breeding) and parental investment (long term provisioning), but rarely do the best of these traits exist in the same man. Then it hit me as I waited in that car line; these westernized… Read more »
@Siirtyrion July 31st, 2014 at 6:28 pm “Selection is on phenotypes” Yes, and behavior is a phenotype, including behavior informed by knowledge. “You also have to keep in mind that a adaptive evolutionary signal (trait/skill) must be honest to convey real QUALITY.’Game’ does not do this.” Actually, nature has an arms race of deception and deception detection. Let’s try a reductio ad absurdum here. Consider a man who was raised by a radical feminist lesbian couple, home schooled and never been on a date with a woman. A second man is a ‘player’ with an n in the 3 figures.… Read more »
“The me at age 17 would be sickened and disgusted by the me of now – he was so thoroughly Beta-ised.” As would mine. I’m still learning but I’m leaps and bounds ahead of where I was at 17.
Women with money are going to get themselves a boy toy to reproduce with, they have no interest in average men, and the only chance the average-looking/not Brad Pitt men have with women, is with women from poor ass countries, which is what many PUAs are doing – expating to Mexico and other shitholes to have sex with women. I think we’ve come across the German version of Whiskey. Seriously, in the United States at least what you have written is not even close to being true. Women with $$$ (I know a crapton of them, as I have worked… Read more »
Sirtyrion/Siirtyrion Most successful “PUAs” have something going for them aside from their “tight game”. I’ve woken up to the realities of the sexual market place. Perhaps you need to as well. I do not consider myself a PUA, I believe in constant improvement. More than a decade of research has been done by Rollo via the forum and through this blog (seven million readers per month). Academic studies limit the sample size. Constant improvement is done by learning from those that have been the most successful at what you strive to accomplish. Realities of the SMP are beautiful. I changed… Read more »
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/pdf/10.1089/met.2014.0027
Ray Cronise had not published this eight years ago.
@Siirtyrion “. You also have to keep in mind that a adaptive evolutionary signal (trait/skill) must be honest to convey real QUALITY. ” No, it does not. You can put longer feathers on birds and they get laid like tile. It simply has to appear honest for long enough to get laid. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-tailed_widowbird In a fairly limited environment, within a limited time frame, the original hunting grounds of PUAs, there is no reason why those signals could not be faked. And you know this, because despite you knowing about wonder bras, fake eyelashes, high heels and make up they can… Read more »
@jacklabear “Selection is on phenotypes”
Yes, and behavior is a phenotype, including behavior informed by knowledge… May I suggest writing your posts in iambic pentameter?
Still laughing… The MacBook Pro is reads the comments to me (audibly) … it SOUNDS like iambic pentameter.
@jacklabear @8:08 pm
http://therationalmale.com/2014/07/30/game-changers/#comment-48874
re: “behavior is a phenotype, including behavior informed by knowledge”
Tha winner of this thread, and all similar threads. How is it that so many men, I guess they’re men because they say so, pretend to be smart but pretend they don’t know this truth?
Don’t you especially love when they deceptively claim authority to declare that signals must be honest?
@liveFearless , thanks for the link to the R cronise “metabolic Winter” hypothesis. Very interesting reading. Congrats on the weight loss. I’ve never had a problem with weight but have know a lot that do. Good info.
“Game started with PUA, but it’s evolved from there into a broader awareness of intergender relations and offers men a much more realistic perspective of the SMP they’re truly involved in” its mutually exclusive and collective exhaustive to all facets of life, from subjective experience, I’m not skinny fat anymore, have landed a great job I really enjoy (acquired through networking, I was a wall flower with inner issues previously), a couple of plates who hang out when I have free time, now have a plausible explanation why all 30+ woman in my office throw themselves at me, loving and… Read more »
I look at it like this: Outer game is minimizing the negatives. Inner game is maximizing the positives. Minimizing negatives in outer game is learning how to get rid of those habits that would cause you to be dismissed out of hand by potential mates. Examples are things like poor hygiene, submissive posture, mumbly speech, and other avoidant behaviors. I look at classic pua techniques basically as learning how to not shoot yourself in the foot with women. It isn’t about a guarantee of success, it’s about not being a guaranteed failure. The rest is up to you. Inner game… Read more »
“wonder bras, fake eyelashes, high heels and make up … cast their spell on you…” Ran across the following quote attributed to Hillary Clinton: “You may not agree with a woman, but to criticize her appearance — as opposed to her ideas or actions — isn’t doing anyone any favors, least of all you. Insulting a woman’s looks when they have nothing to do with the issue at hand implies a lack of comprehension on your part, an inability to engage in high-level thinking. You may think she’s ugly, but everyone else thinks you’re an idiot.” Here is the FI… Read more »
ill tell you what form my personal experience. From 15 to 30 , i was model like handsome , rich , eith a phd and an amtuer bodybuilder body ( morel ike a 100 meter sprinter) who had 4 cars and hundreds of thousands in bank. I got pussy without doing anything , they just came on me. then i had a serious health problem , lost my hair , due to cortizone my face got swallen up ( a bit ) and all the hundreds of thousands gone ( the beach house i bought helped that too ). What… Read more »
btw heres a tip , the easiest way to be masculine is taking exogenous testosterone , period.
All natural alpha males i know had the highest testosterone levels at their 20’s , this also holds true at their 30’s
its not that hard to test your testosterone and estradiol levels , most men nowdays have hypogonadism especially compared to our grandparents.
@gregariouswolf, re: “It isn’t about a guarantee of success, it’s about not being a guaranteed failure.”
This. But good luck getting deniers to even consider this truth.
re: testosterone. For any normal male with normal levels (e.g. blood levels above 600 nanograms per deciliter), any amount of extra testosterone, include extreme body-builder abuse levels of 20 times, 50 times, 100 times natural production, produces no observable changes in behavior (although it will put *many* pounds of pure muscle even on couch potatoes).
In contrast, behavior will affect testosterone levels (a little). Not vice versa, though.
re: swole. I have mentioned before about guys I call XM for extra-medium. Most often seen in skinny teen dudes who started working out, I’ve also seen it a lot lately in pretty boys who are trying to alpha-up, maybe to convince themselves they are more than a (moisturized, plucked, having to shave almost twice a week) pretty face. They try to do the swole walk with chest out and elbows up, and EVERY older man thinks they look stupid and EVERY woman think it’s cute that they’re trying because, well, because he’s cute facially. Lately, though, the extra-mediums have… Read more »
Regarding testosterone, Danger & Play did a post on increasing it naturally with simply better posture, through exercise. I’m assuming there are also deadlifts in there somewhere too, He has the bloodwork to prove it. Very interesting:
http://www.dangerandplay.com/2014/07/30/raised-testosterone-level-naturally-670/
Amit. You should meet Mike in person. He is the person he says he is. Here’s how he does it… Alpha Male Posture Building Exercises – Dumbbell and Kettlebell Variation:
“Why is mart a ”troll?’ Because he sees game for what it is?” No because he: 1) Has an agenda which is not about “spreading the truth” even as he claims he is “spreading the truth”. 2) He has no interest in actually debating the issue he supposedly came here to debate. 3) Most importantly, he refuses to defend statements he makes, instead relying on more wise-ass commentary. Seems rather trollish to me. But then he seems to be in good company lately around. It seems like this blog has had a recent flood of Game Nay-sayers, whose entire mission… Read more »
Just to clarify a bit more, Mart / Barb / Shel and more are all recreated gmail accounts from the same IP. Dalrock’s banned her on several occasions, and I say her because all but one appear to use female names in the gmail address and her arguments stem primarily from a fem-centric perspective and derogatory of men, the manosphere and red pill truths. So I assume she’s obsessively familiar with the manosphere – enough to create repeated gmail accounts in order to involve herself after getting banned. I’m a bit more charitable than most of my contemporaries in that… Read more »
Just thought I’d point out to the detractors that game is not zero sum.
While a man using game may get more of what he wants, it doesn’t follow that women get the short end of the stick. Game actually gives women what they want in a man.
While as elsewhere there may be 2% of sociopathic types, normal men with a conscience exercise responsibility along with authority. Long term as well as short term relationships are improved. The experience of men has been that the women appreciate their game frame and tell them so, both verbally and non-verbally.
My comment is less about the issues that have taken the conversation off track (in my mind), and more about the original issues raised by Rollo’s initial article. My takeaway from this is that manliness, like Game, is not a destination but an evolutionary process. We evolve toward our inner masculine core through reflection, discussion, trial and error, field testing, etc. All of this takes hard work, and it’s not a short process. Some of us are learning about and picking up these tools later in life, while other men have the benefit of learning it now with youth and… Read more »
“The Feminine Imperative Strikes Back?”
The Hamster goes Hyper!
“The Feminine Imperative Strikes Back?”
“The Hamster goes Hyper!”
At this point I think they may have gone to plaid…
@LiveFearless
Indeed, it would be great to meet Mike in person but alas I am situated in London, UK right now. When I make to the states, I will make it point to look him up.
I can already envision a new wave of feminists called “Feminine Imperative United”. This is pure gold, man.
Rollo,
Was NOT aware of that. I see now you found out about it last thread. Sorry to feed such a noxious troll, but I feel pretty good about pegging he/she/it early on.
And so, I guess I am pretty on point with the whole orchestrated propaganda blitz. DAMN I’m good.
I made a joke of it, but I guess it really is an aspect of the Feminine Imperative trying to fight back. Does it seem it all a little surreal for you that in their attempt to discredit you, they are validating some of your previous posts?
Heh.
@Magent, http://therationalmale.com/2013/11/25/nursing-power/ A handful of my male readers often ask why I don’t moderate comments, or that the message of Rational Male would be better served if I banned certain commenters. I’ve mentioned on several posts and threads as to why I won’t ever do that (except for blatant spamming), but in a nutshell it’s my fundamental belief that the validity of any premise or idea should be able to withstand public debate. People who aren’t confident of the strength of their assertions or ideas, or are more concerned with profiting from the branding of those weak assertions than they… Read more »
” We evolve toward our inner masculine core through reflection, discussion, trial and error, field testing, etc” Well said MikePhil. I haven’t made a study of PUA routines myself; it doesn’t feel like my style. Maybe I’ll get around to it someday. I have learned things of value from hanging around these parts. As I pointed out, internalizing some basic RP truths can have far reaching effects on sweeping away self defeating attitudes and behaviors. A big part of it has been giving up those not so pretty lies that caused self censorship of what natural alpha I have. In… Read more »
Everyone have a look at this: https://vine.co/v/M2Hmue7xjxq There’s many more on here: https://vine.co/Badoo Sure it’s made as a joke but I can definitely see this happening more often in the future, just look at the success of Tinder to give you some perspective. I recall seeing a comment saying something along the lines of, “Technology will only further skew the SMP in favor of good looking Alphas in the future.” Looks like they’ll soon be proven right. It will only get harder for ugly and average guys, tight game or not. Roosh himself acknowledges this in one of his recent… Read more »
@ Rollo
How did you know!?!
According to the one German Amazon review of your book that ruins your otherwise perfect 5 star rating you are a “brown” (i.e. nazi) wannabe cult leader.
I wish I could translate the actual arguments that were made that would support this, alas, there were none.
For me, the focus has always been on self-mastery in every part of my life. The focus is on always maintaining an optimistic, flexible mentality to life. To the degree that it relates to women, my frame is irontight. However, nothing in that behavior is wired specifically toward my girlfriend. It is just how I want to live. She likes living in that world and wants to follow. Outer Game only works to the degree that it is backed by an inner purpose. Otherwise, you will find yourself living a life that is not really yours and that is very… Read more »
@jacklabear “Yes, and behavior is a phenotype, including behavior informed by knowledge.” First, nobody said otherwise. It should be valued as important for assessing a long term potential partner. But we are talking about capture the female attention on courtship interactions, and it’s the physical appearance what is culling male frequencies. True that once a partner is obtained, personality acts in ways to ensure the continuation and exclusivity of a long term relationship. You should note that behavioral traits are a dependent variable. It is something that depends on other factor (independent variable, i.e. attractiveness). Since women are skewing their… Read more »
Now for some studies: Life History of Female Preferences for Male Faces: A Comparison of Pubescent Girls, Nonpregnant and Pregnant Young Women, and Middle-aged Women http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3226692/ “The main findings are as follows: (1) Preference for sexy-looking faces was strongest in young, nonpregnant women. (2) Biologically more mature girls displayed more adultlike preferences. (3) The intragroup consistency for postmenopausal women was relatively low. (4) In terms of the preference pattern, pregnant women were more similar to perimenopausal women than they were to their nonpregnant peers. (5) Preference for youthful appearance decreased with the age of the women. I argue that the… Read more »
@Siirtyrion
“Ok, the long-tailed widowbird does use an indicator mechanism by which females can accurately assess the quality of potential mates. BUT you’re confusing some zoological phenotypes with human ones, where is operating other primary signals for sexual attraction.”
Yeah, my long tail feathers never got me laid, granted.
However, now that we have established that such signals can be faked, who says we cannot fake human signals?
At least for short term mating success, it seems to me that identifying those signals and emulating them is a very real possibility.
Don’t be so sure about that. You want a study? I’d be interested to read your take on this:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2013/07/22/study-dominance-not-looks-predicts-mens-mating-success/
It’s not that I don’t agree with the importance of, and priority women give to physical arousal cues, but dominance IS one of those arousal cues.
Have any studies regarding the importance of physical appearance ever taken the test group and conducted both a sober and drunk test? How about before or after a big meal? Or maybe before and after watching certain types of movies? Maybe one should be done where those being surveyed are made to evaluate a group under different lighting conditions, like a blue vs. amber filters.
Is it possible perceived physical attractiveness is influenced by environmental conditions? If so by how much? And in what way?
“learning to appreciate subtleties in female duplicity”
Ha. Some kinda sugar and spice?
Nah, women are never liars, fakes, scammers, opportunists, manipulators, narcissists, histrionics, etc… we just need to “appreciate” their “subtleties”.
You mean, uh, DETECT subtle SIGNS of duplicity?
I see game as a survival skill.
Sirtyrion, “But we are talking about capture the female attention on courtship interactions, and it’s the physical appearance what is culling male frequencies.” The primacy of appearance has been discussed and no clear consensus emerged because there are many exceptions and the contributions of other factors are significant. The studies show an aggregate effect and beauty is in the eye of the individual beholder. It doesn’t matter if even 100% of women prefer a particular face because most won’t get him. If only 10% of men are chosen as the most attractive, does that mean that 90% of men and… Read more »
Sirtyrion
“I’m getting tired of repeating myself but my main point is that ‘game’ is not a primary factor in attracting mates”
Not everyone would argue that it is primary.
Myself, I’m not going to sit crying and hungry by the cookie jar because I can’t pull out a fist full but can only pull out one or two at a time .
Siirtyrion contradicts himself/herself “again: First, nobody said otherwise.” Siirtyrion, you did so say otherwise, and you keep doing so. EVERY post is you saying otherwise; you literally have no other point to make.
So, you lose.
As a professional scientist, I dominantly assert that Siirtyrion is no scientist, much less a good one, and further that (s)he is a social justice warrior concern-troll, pretending to be one of the cry baby types “I’m sooo uncuute!”, in order to make some point about which we do not care. The deadest giveaway are bald assertions that his/her feewings are so important that their truthiness impacts the whole world, e.g. “Game’ is entirely dependent on other ‘gina-tingling’ variables that have nothing to do with game – it is *not* a proxy for attraction. So, all ‘game’ can conceivably do,… Read more »
I asked my friend the other day how many women he thinks he’s slept with in his life.
“Oh, hundreds.”
He said he knew he was never good looking, and he was always thin as a rail. I don’t think he’s set foot in a gym a single day in his life. He was in a popular local band, which got him a lot of exposure, but the real kicker was when he said “I just felt like I had the right to do it.”
That was the only explanation he could come up with, and that speaks volumes.
The twitter link to the Jezebel article about the wife loosing attraction with her husband sounds like she’s regretting creating the man in the garage. http://groupthink.jezebel.com/traditional-masculinity-and-sexual-preferences-1614373452 He used to hang out with male friends when they dated, now he doesn’t see them anymore. He keeps a broken computer, maybe because he has only one place to put his stuff. And his stuff has mostly been vetoed away on her opinion. But she doesn’t mess with anything computer related, so he holds on to it. May have gotten out of shape because he doesn’t do things on his own anymore. She… Read more »
“In 4 sentences or less (some of you are tediously verbose), tell us if you believe Game is 100% bullshit. If you believe most, but not all of it is bullshit, tell us what part of it you consider valid.” “‘Game’ is entirely dependent on other ‘gina-tingling’ variables that have nothing to do with game – it is *not* a proxy for attraction. So, all ‘game’ can conceivably do, is ‘maximize’ a man’s opportunities on a case by case basis (no Gina tingle, no ‘game’ optimization opportunities). Yadda-yadda-verbosity-verbosity…” This, my friend is a dodge. Your verbosity does not hide the… Read more »
Johnycomelately
July 30th, 2014 at 8:27 pm
Become an engineer or similar. There are a LOT fewer women in that kind of workplace.
To Orion
“However, now that we have established that such signals can be faked, who says we cannot fake human signals?”
Would you consider the tv show where the women are under the impression they are dating Prince Harry an example.
“Siirtyrion contradicts himself/herself “again: First, nobody said otherwise.” Siirtyrion, you did so say otherwise, and you keep doing so. EVERY post is you saying otherwise; you literally have no other point to make.”
This is why it is so important for her/he/it to avoid answering questions simply and directly. It would tie Siirtyrion to a hard point which he/she/it would be forced to defend. Embellishing every answer allows for wiggle-room, enough space to dance away from anything that might force a concession.