Every so often I’m in the midst of considering an idea, sometimes even typing away at a draft, when the internet gods hand me the divine gift of an example of exactly the concept I’m attempting to make a bit more concrete. Today was one of those days.
59 year old Robin Korth made an effort in feigned indignation on the Huffington Post last Saturday. I can’t imagine most of my readers haven’t been made aware of it already since this story is making the rounds in the manosphere; Return of Kings and Chateau Heartiste were predictably first to the punch. Please do, at the very least, skim through these posts (they’re not long); they provide many more examples of red pill wisdom than just the points I’ll make today.
These blogs have already done an admirable job in dissecting Ms. Korth’s feminist boilerplate, male-shaming efforts so I don’t really feel the need to toss another log on that fire. Briefly though, Robin was upset that a 55 year old man she met online found her body beyond his threshold of physical arousal – in other words, she didn’t pass the boner test for him.
For all her self-induced self-perceptions of what she believed men should find attractive arousing about her, the man, Dave, was completely honest with her about his evaluation of her sexual market value. But as I’ve stated in prior threads, women say they want honesty, but they never want full disclosure.
Dave went so far as to make a counter offer, by making suggestions she might better present herself in a more sexy context for him to increase her arousal potential:
We talked for some time more, my head reeling at the content of the conversation. He spoke of special stockings and clothing that would “hide” my years. He blithely told me he loved “little black dresses” and strappy shoes. He said my hair was not long and flowing as he preferred, but that was okay because it was “cool looking.” I felt like a Barbie Doll on acid as I listened to this man. He was totally oblivious to the viciousness of his words. He had turned me into an object to be dressed and positioned to provide satisfaction for his ideas of what female sexual perfection should be.
He explained that now that I knew what was required, we could have a great time in the bedroom. I told him no. I would not hide from my own body. I would not wear outfits to make my body more “tolerable.” I would not undress in the dark or shower with the bathroom door closed. I would not diminish myself for him — or for anyone. My body is beautiful and it goes along with my mind and my heart.
I’m just going to take a moment here to point out a few notable observations.
Initially I assumed Dave was attempting to establish Frame, and maybe in a Beta way he was, but in doing so Dave is negotiating desire – his own desire, and this is equally ineffective when men do it from an advantage because eventually a man will realize he’s compromised his genuine passion and the woman will grow resentful.
Also, Dave makes the mistake of appealing to Robin’s reason – an obvious Beta tell. Like a properly conditioned Beta, Dave lays everything on the table in full disclosure. Most feminized men internalize the popular notion that women want to know and discuss the sexual things “they like” in order to pragmatically and rationally fulfill each other’s “needs.”
It’s counterintuitive for men to express what they like sexually, especially when this trope is taught to them as part of their ‘open communication’ (i.e. “the key to a great relationship”®) sensitivity training. What Robin was really upset with was less about his words and more about her hypergamous filters being tricked by a guy who ‘just doesn’t get it’ that a woman has to want to please a man.
Genuine, unnegotiated desire doesn’t work rationally or pragmatically.
If Dave had read The Gift he would know that buying for, or requesting that a woman wear lingerie is a Beta push. A woman buys and wears lingerie to please a Man for whom she has a desire to please – anything else is a form of negotiating desire.
However, Ms. Korth’s example is one of a commonly solipsistic woman who’s default presumption is that pleasing anyone but herself is self-diminishing servitude.
I can’t say as this comes as a shock – most properly conditioned women now feel that just cooking for a man is a form of submitting to, and appreciating him for, his authority (cooking has become the expectation of men to prove their worth in a fem-centric role reversal). Under the doctrine of egalitarian equalism any act of anything less than mutually autonomous independence has the potential to be turned into (the perception of) patriarchal domineering.
Conflating Values
One of the major problems women have, and more than even some red pill men have, is the conflation of sexual market value with their intrinsic personal value as a human being.
It needs to be emphasized that while personal value is influential in sexual market value, SMV is distinct from your value as a human being. I’m stressing this because, in the age Disney Princess empowerment, this conflation of the two has become a go-to social convention; and not just for women.
What Korth suffers from is presuming her personal value is her sexual market value.
It’s disruptive to her self-perceptions and ego-investments when that presumption is challenged by a man who doesn’t want to fuck her for reasons based on the intrinsic value she believes she’s entitled to by virtue of maturity and imaginings of self-sufficiency. Just as women aren’t aroused by men’s own self-concepts of virtuousness and aspirations of higher purpose, men aren’t aroused by whatever ephemeral self-perceptions a woman may have.
From the Timeline of the Professional Woman:
This is the overreach of the feminine imperative – to attempt to thwart men’s biological predispositions by convincing them what they should find attractive and arousing in women. This becomes all the more ironic when you consider that the women the imperative would have men be attracted to are masculinized versions of women.
Feminist ‘equalism’ is always shocked that evolved human biology and its feral predispositions won’t cooperate with it, but such is the frustration with any social order or ideology which fails to account for the realities of human being’s natural states and biological imperatives. There is a conceived, higher-order expectation that, through freewill, conviction or some other learned, reasoned means, people will rise above the influence of their base nature and comply with what they believe will make for an idealized existence.
What egalitarian equalisim, struggles against is basic human instinct, nature and impulse.
Sexual Market Value vs. Personal Value
After two years since publishing it, my SMV chart continues to be a benchmark for manosphere / red pill theory and it’s extended beyond whatever humble hopes I had for it. However, it’s always been very contentious because it places a valuation on men and women according to the dictates of the sexual marketplace:
[…] however for our purposes today it is important to note that these valuations are meant to encompass an overall sexual value based on both long and short term breeding prospects, relational desirability, male provisioning capacity, female fertility, sexual desirability and availability, etc. et. al.. Your milage may vary, but suffice it to say the ten scale is meant to reflect an overall value as individuated for one sex by the other. Outliers will always be an element of any study, but the intent is to represent general averages here.
When you attempt to quantify any aspect of human ‘value’ you can expect to have your interpretations of it to be offensive to various people on the up or down side of that estimate. There is simply no escaping personal bias and the offense that comes from having one’s self-worth attacked, or even confirmed for them.
The first criticism I’ve come to expect is usually some variation about how evaluating a person’s SMV is “dehumanizing”, people are people, and have intrinsic worth beyond just the sexual. To which I’ll emphatically agree, however, this dismissal only conveniently sidesteps the realities of the sexual marketplace.
Again, sexual market value is not personal value. Personal value, your value as a human being however one subjectively defines that, is a definite component to sexual market value, but separating the two requires an often uncomfortable amount of self-analysis. And, as in Ms. Korth’s experience here, this often results in denial of very real circumstances, as well as a necessary, ego-preserving, cognitive dissonance from that reality.
Denial of sexual market valuation is a psychological insurance against women losing their controlling, sexual agency in their hypergamous choices.
You Shouldn’t Know This Stuff!
I recently read a story on the Red Pill Reddit forum about a guy who’s girlfriend discovered my book he’d been reading. She began picking through various sections and, expectedly, got really pissed off at the chapters on SMV (the chart in particular). They both discussed the parts she’d read and she admitted she wanted to read the whole thing, but from what they talked about she confessed that there wasn’t really anything she disagreed with.
Her words were, “You men shouldn’t know this stuff!”
It wasn’t that she was irritated by the sections of the book, but rather the fact that men might become aware of women’s sexual strategies as laid bare by the SMV sections and chart.
In the most visceral, biological sense, the primary value of women to men is sex. Almost a year ago I was involved in a lively blog discussion about how men sexually size up women within the space of a glance. Either a woman has sexual potential or she doesn’t. Women like to complain that this is sexual objectification, but men’s brains are literally wired to do exactly this. When we see an arousing woman it triggers the parts of our brains involved with tool manipulation – that’s a feature, not a bug, of the male sexual response.
That may seem shallow or dehumanizing, but just because sexual valuation is a prime value for women it doesn’t mean it’s their only value – in fact far from it. However, there is a distinction between the two, but there’s is a definite utility to women’s interest in maintaining their hypergamous selectivity when they conflate the two together, or deny / reject the validity of sexual market value altogether.
This is what Ms. Korth, and countless other women who share her mindset, has illustrated here. The reality is that a man, Dave, is separating her sexual market value from her estimation of her personal self-worth (inflated and exaggerated as it may be). Robin mistakenly believes her self-impression should be her sexual market value, but this simply isn’t, and never will be, the case.
[…] Separating Values […]
Argh! At that age, she should have gained wisdom, first from her own granny, then her mother, then through her own life. This then would be passed to her children, but especially to her grandkids.
What the fuck is with these old woman valuing themselves as sex objects now a days?
Sex is temporary, wisdom is eternal!
Idiot!
Besides, reading the piece, it seemed to me that Dave was just fine with valuing her for her mind. He said that he liked to fuck younger woman. But old leather face just couldn’t bare the thought that this guy wanted only cerebral pleasure from her. Oh no, he had to take all of her, mind and that sexy dried up body of hers also. Because my god, oi am woman hear me roar!
Idiot!
As I said at CH –
Feminism = Sisyphus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sisyphus
Idiot!
You may not have thrown another log on the now raging bonfire but you’ve once again surgically removed the epidermis of a women desperately trying to rationalise her SMV decline. I’ve recently felt the wrath of a 40+ woman that I coldly replaced after my boner test finally failed. Apart from super-gluing my door keyhole, she threw all the male-shaming boilerplate guilt tactics you mention – “you’ll be a lonely old man”, “I feel sorry for your kids”, “the life you choose to lead is unhealthy” etc etc Women simply can’t accept or fathom being dumped by a Man when… Read more »
I look forward to giving the LJBF speech to older woman with all the sincerity and heartfelt avoidance of truth with which they delivered it to their orbiters 30yrs earlier.
http://twitter.com/RobinKorth/status/486636301207093248
#Robism
Says it all right there fearless.
cept I think she thinks her life is a good thing.
Idiot!
Women are always saying that they don’t owe men sex, even if they invest time and money in them.
But this woman was under the impression that he owed her sex.
She was basically the female version of the “nice guy” that so many women bitch about these days, with the exception that all the female commenters and many male commenters, were accusing him of being impotent and homosexual and an all-around douchebag.
Granted, he may have chosen a more tactful approach, but she did ask for honesty.
It needs to be emphasized that while personal value is influential in sexual market value, SMV is distinct from your value as a human being. I’m stressing this because, in the age Disney Princess empowerment, this conflation of the two has become a go-to social convention; and not just for women. This analysis verifies how Korth’s screed is, in it’s totality, a naked distillation of the ironic fact that the nth-wave-feminist incarnations of ‘Strong Independent Women’ are those most narrowly and exclusively equating 1. one’s very worth-as-human-being and 2. their SMV. Not so humanist/benevolent/progressive – when you look at an… Read more »
A woman can extend her value to a particular man if she will bond with him. Sadly feminism no longer allows that because that bonding requires female submissiveness.
We are going to have to learn the old truths again. It is going to require a LOT of pain.
This is extreme example, lets not forget other thirsty men who would sex with women 3-4 points below their SMV. SMP dynamics are not working efficiently, because there is supply and demand problem. Number of available women regardless of SMV is much more smaller than number of men who are usually available,except some exceptions like Dave. It is not difficult to understand women like Robin behave like this under such negative conditions.
OMG she feels SOOOO entitled to male arousal eww how creepy
And when the lights were out, she tried to pretend that I was Chris Hemsworth … She said I should get a clue and dress like Christian Grey from the “Fifty Shades of Grey” trilogy
Women simply need to realize they can’t have it both ways. The ideal scenario is for her man to love her in the same way he did when she was younger. Here forms the problem – he probably does love her every bit as much as he ever did…the problem is he doesn’t sexually fancy her in the same way. Now reverse the gender dynamic. A woman, especially a woman past the age of 23, was primarily attracted to the provisioning capabilities a man could supply her in the way of a house, engagement ring, wedding, honeymoon and kids. Then… Read more »
“Cindi Truman July 12 at 1:48pm I believe this guy has a problem. HE probably can’t get it up for ANYONE, without some difficulty. I would bet on it. He tried to put the blame on Robin. I’m sure that is what he told himself to comfort his OWN self-esteem. He is at the age where HE is most likely experiencing erectile dysfunction, at least sometimes. I will be 59 in 2 months. My husband is 2 years younger than me and when he sees me in my undies or naked (after my shower ,etc), he still whistles at me… Read more »
In the video posted by LiveFearless she looks like she’s 59 going on 80. She certainly hasn’t aged well; another result of feminism?
“We are going to have to learn the old truths again. It is going to require a LOT of pain.”
Agree x 10000000000
Cynical Optimist – that comment you cross-posted speaks to something even more obnoxious about women’s expectations:
They think they are entitled to arousal from any and every man they find attractive, at any time, throughout their lifespan.
I’m curious to read about the thread in which that guy’s girlfriend discovered The Rational Male book. Does anyone have a link?
I leave mine lying around near my shelves, and to my knowledge, my girlfriend has never read it. I’d love to see a potential screenplay of what I can expect.
@RPReader, I think this was it:
http://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/comments/250lek/another_take_on_why_trp_is_loathed_by_women_afbb/chcurqh
What a cringefest that article is. It’s absurd to feel sorry for that old hag. Who knows how many betas she abused in her peak SMV years. She can always travel to some place like Jamaica…for a few bucks she can have all the young black dick she wants, duh.
“Her words were, “You men shouldn’t know this stuff!”
“It wasn’t that she was irritated by the sections of the book, but rather the fact that men might become aware of women’s sexual strategies as laid bare by the SMV sections and chart.”
To me, this is the most telling part of the entire post, Rollo. Men’s knowledge of female sexual strategies necessarily reins in, diminishes and subdues the prime source of their power. And if that power is controlled, that means it can be harnessed to men’s advantage.
That’s why “you men shouldn’t know this stuff”.
“SMV is distinct from your value as a human being.”
Very much so. And every time a woman objects to being objectified “I want to be treated as a HUMAN, not as in the SMV.” then she does not actually want a sexual relationship.
intrinsic human value is a vague concept. it sounds very hippy-dippy like “we are all equally special.” you are your deeds
make that *intrinsic personal value*
This pretty much sums up the totality of feminine solipsism.
No dear, your life is the result of the consequences of your decisions.
And to add to what Deti said, why advice from women isn’t something you should take seriously.
And also speaks to how good the writing has been from Rollo.
I like it when the interconnectedness of things start showing themselves.
Let’s all use one of the bottles of free liquor Rollo gets and raise a toast.
Well down!
Wish there was an edit, but I wanted to also say about men shouldn’t know this, I read a comment somewhere(maybe here) that women operate from a starting point of deception.
Very true.
Probably Dave was (more than a little bit) picking up on Robin’s reluctance to do *anything* specifically to turn him on. As mentioned in her article, what happens when two older folks climb naked into bed together and lie there doing nothing but getting comfortable is sleep. On the other hand, taking her account at face value, if he really did climb into bed naked with a willing woman then he has more or less obligated *himself* to try to do something sexually. If all *he* did was lie there hoping something would happen (or *she* would do something), then… Read more »
jf12 July 16th, 2014 at 11:42 am Re: old folks. There was an ad on the DC subways about a decade ago to the effect: http://powerandcontrol.blogspot.com/2005/02/better-than-viagra.html “That ad actually came from a conversation I had with one of the executives who fund our campaigns,” White recounts. “He told me marijuana works much better than Viagra, that people should really try it.” I’m sure to some extent it is like “beer goggles” without the limp d*ck effect. ==================== BTW it has been my experience that women who start with lower SMVs are nicer. In general. It serves them well in old… Read more »
A lot of what we are going through is because of the left’s belief in total plasticity. You can be what ever you want to be. There are no limits.
The difficulty is that there is biology. There are limits. They are rather broad. But man/woman is not infinitely malleable.
I could probably dedicate an entire post to this, but I couldn’t help but get the impression that Dave subscribed to the ‘open communication’ meme the feminine imperative has sold to ‘new age sensitive guys’ for decades now. Part of that nonsense is that openly discussing sexual likes & dislikes will lead to a better sex life for a couple. Nothing could be further from the truth. As I said, women never want full disclosure because it exposes the game they’d rather be playing than talking about. Women want a guy who ‘just gets it’ and this especially applies to… Read more »
i cannot tell you how much i love this blog. as for this entitled woman: she was so used to putting men in the friendzone her whole life that she thinks that she is entitled to sleep with men 4 years younger than her. the “male gaze” that she complained about all her life is finally gone & she’s now invisible. and when she hears the lies that girls tell men they want to hear, spouted back to her, she resorts to writing some public rant in a vain attempt to be seen as a sexual being. girls hate when… Read more »
@Rollo, re: discussing. I think part of the problem is that women DO discuss things, among women. Hence a man telling her “Now I would like you to massage here, while tickling there with that” is activating her relating-to-a-woman sensors (by the way, women do tend to be very quid pro quo in their interactions with other women). Also, of course, there is the whole problem of him being “needy” i.e. expecting her to actually do something for a change.
The vast majority of women lose their peak SMV in their early 20s. By age 28 they’ve already have almost no sexual appeal and by the time they’re in their early 30s their eggs are completely rotten and defected, which makes them even less sexually attractive. That lady shouldn’t feel so bad. Many of the European states are despairingly trying to pump up the birth rates, offering hard cash, good mortgages deal and fiscal incentives to try and make couples have children. Couples in their mid 30s. What the suits fail to understand is that most women in ther 30s… Read more »
he should not have danced around the issue, he should of just said, wear these stockings, wear this dress
That would’ve been a better demonstrative tact, than him explaining why he wanted her to wear them. Honestly a 55 y.o. guy has no business entertaining even a 49 y.o. woman, much less a 59 y.o. She’s fortunate he dated her at all considering the majority of men wouldn’t find her sexually viable or preferable at her age. That said, what would’ve made the situation better would be if he had fucked her once or twice and got her into fucking him. Then flip the dread on by not being into it anymore with her and allowing her to figure… Read more »
Rollo, your SMV chart seems like it can be off in the case of older men–my SMV is higher now than it was back when I was around 30 when I am in a dancing context. I move with more grace and power than I did when I was 30. Women think that I am much younger than I am based on how I move. I know a woman who is 65 but is pretty and has packaged herself very well with slim arms and a nice body and Mary Kay moisturizer and Lady Clairol and tastefully slutty clothing; 20-something… Read more »
theasdgamer July 16th, 2014 at 2:14 pm I’d have to second that. SMV is to some extent in the eye of the beholder. I was in a bar a few weeks back (I’m 69) and a 20 something came up to me and hugged me for 5 minutes continuous. And held on to me for another 5 after that. True she was a 3 (that may be optimistic) but she was nice. Back in the day I used to get 8s, 9s, and 10s. When you get older though you look for different things. The “haughty – I’m too good… Read more »
jf12- “If all *he* did was lie there hoping something would happen (or *she* would do something), then as the man I adjudge him to be more at fault. The passive boner test is definitely the wrong test for a LTR.” I disagree, she’s old wrinkly, and probably so set in her ways that as an LTR there is little mutual growth to be had. Her value to him is low in same way various men were of low value to her when she was younger. This was her opportunity to demonstrate why being with her was better option than… Read more »
@Badpainter re: “This was her opportunity to demonstrate why being with her was better option than chasing younger tail.”
I concede the point. I get the impression from her article, however, that he never did try anything. Even if I concede the point that she should have made him want to try something, still, he should have tried something.
“One of the major problems women have, and more than even some red pill men have, is the conflation of sexual market value with their intrinsic personal value as a human being” “Personal value, your value as a human being however one subjectively defines that, is a definite component to sexual market value, but separating the two requires an often uncomfortable amount of self-analysis” Problem for men, yes. But I think uniquely for women it’s the other way around- smv as a component of personal value. It is precisely that their first and best form of agency is their sexuality,… Read more »
I have a question for you. You said: “In the most visceral, biological sense, the primary value of women to men is sex. … Women like to complain that this is sexual objectification, but men’s brains are literally wired to do exactly this. When we see an arousing woman it triggers the parts of our brains involved with tool manipulation – that’s a feature, not a bug, of the male sexual response.” I am newly red pill aware, and I agree with the majority of what you write. For example, I found nothing to disagree with in this post; in… Read more »
jf12, I am going to disagree, and at the same time acknowledge and respect your view. I do understand it. You’re more charitable than I am. I know I won’t be able to persuade you, but consider this. If women are permitted by men, the larger society, and culture to pursue a passive just show up strategy, the reason for that is eggs=expensive sperm=cheap. But a 60yr old woman, unless she’s Ann Margaret or Raquel Whelch, has no eggs and a shadow of her sex appeal. At that point all the man is required to do is show up. Turnabout… Read more »
Just let your critics know that most of the research scientists in evolutionary psychology are in fact women – Dr. Martie Hasselton.
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/papers/
You should enjoy most of these studies, but be sure to read this one which addresses the criticisms of Evo-Psych:
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/papers/downloads/haystraw.pdf
Also be sure you follow Robert Burriss on twitter: https://twitter.com/RobertBurriss
And check out his site:
http://www.robertburriss.com/
@Praetorius (and other…),re: “men.. can and should cultivate an independent sense of worth through achievement.”
Most men can ONLY get a sense of worth that way since women make it so abundantly clear they do not value most men sexually.
@Badpainter re: “women are all about fairness”
Hee hee!
FWIW I really don’t have any experience being a passive receiver of pleasure/enticement, so my opinion of how a man should act in that circumstance is probably irrelevant.
Evolution and evolutionary psychology are not necessary to explain reproduction; they are just theoretical frameworks for scientific study. Without even considering evolution, scientific study has found that different animals use different signals to attract their mates. The signals of more attractive candidates correlate to their fitness to continue or improve the blood-line of that kind of animal. So, without believing the theoretical framework, you can still acknowledge that physical appearance is a good signal for fertility in a potential mother, and strength, wealth and social status are good signals for identifying a potential father.
Great post as always, and I went over to HuffPost to read Robin Korth’s article in her entirety, which I highly recommend to get the full flavor of her viewpoint. Having said that, two things stick out. One, the concept that personal value and sexual market place value are indirectly but not directly related is brilliant and dead on-target. For instance; not to harp on the Hanna Rosins and the Sheryl Sandbergs of the world, but telling a man you’re sexy because a) you’re the CEO of a multinational software company, b) have a staff of 50 jump to your… Read more »
@jf12
“Most men can ONLY get a sense of worth that way since women make it so abundantly clear they do not value most men sexually.”
Certainly true. One can choose what to work on and change that though.
Women live and love opportunistically, men life and love idealistically. These are not just romantic operative states, but life states of operating premises
The article got over one million likes on Facebook. The Feminine Imperative working in unison. @cycnical optimist – the comment is completely misunderstanding something. Her 59 YRO husband still sees his 61 year old wife as the young girl he met and fell in love with. When he looks at her he feels the connection and love towards her. He also remembers how passionate their early times were and it is possible to keep up that kind of romance even in your 60s, but the female commentator misses one point: If she were now to look for a new man… Read more »
@ Rollo: Thanks, exactly the kind of info I was looking for. @ Mike: you said “So, without believing the theoretical framework, you can still acknowledge that physical appearance is a good signal for fertility in a potential mother, and strength, wealth and social status are good signals for identifying a potential father.” Good point, and I agree with you here. I was aiming my comment more at those who are committed, ideologically, to disagreeing with anything that isn’t embedded in the Christian framework of ‘God made man and women for each other.’ My family and many of my friends… Read more »
@David W, As a policy I attempt to stay as areligious and amoral as possible when I’m expressing ideas unless some aspect directly relates to intergender relations. That said, this book was influential for me in balancing of evolution and religious conviction:
http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Darwins-God-Scientists-Evolution/dp/0061233501/
If Ms. Korth had made a point of sucking his cock instead of just passively lying there, she might have passed the boner test.
Too entitled I guess.
@jacklabear, yeah,well, maybe. This is my point of contention. “I’m not feeling anything”, by either one, *should* have resulted in someone trying to make them feel something. That’s what they were there for.
Robin Korth – Narcissistic scarecrow The human race would not exist if men wanted to bang wrinkly old women instead of available younger women. This is not an excuse or justification for masculine nature. It is simply a fact to consider and men have nothing to be ashamed of. The natural masculine sex drive is not evil just because some self dejected old wrinkled females like Robin Korth cannot accept their condition (which is the condition we all face if we live long enough). Female shitidiots have been vilifying men for mans natural desire to bang younger fertile women probably… Read more »
Isn’t Dave’s response nothing more than a male version of LJBF. She’s perfect for him, he “thinks”, but he just doesn’t get the tingles? Why is it blown out of proportion as to question her self-worth? Why don’t women see this is what men go through on a daily basis? If the tables were turned, would we even pay attention? What would our advice to her be…. It would seem to me, Robin could use a little plate spinning …. Another telling point is she does mirror self-gratification and talk, she has highly sexualized perspective, and as Rollo implies confuses… Read more »
Badpainter: “What does she bring other than wood softener? He has the power now, she has make it worth his while.”
Before girrrrl power, there were plenty of lonley old women ( with resourses ) who paid younger men in a variety of ways to service them (in a variety of ways).
Those men were called ‘gigolos’.
Enjoyed this very much, thanks, and Rollo, your follow on comments about Dave’s beta behavior are so insightful. I have two thoughts worth sharing: 1. Dave – So he’s passive sexually it seems. How does that work? What does he expect to happen? But it’s also true that some women are very “political” about sex – feminists. So maybe he feels like he can’t be dominant? That she’d object? Or perhaps just being around a horrific woman like Korth just saps him of all dignity and self-respect? It goes along with the talking about it – bizarre. But apparently he… Read more »
@Glenn, it’s funny when you think of how younger women attempt to shame men into compliance with their imperatives with the fear of becoming the lonely old man – “you better change your attitude mister, or you’ll be lonely and destitute with no one loving you when you’re old and grey” http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/12/the-myth-of-the-lonely-old-man/ …but yet Korth triumphantly crows online about how fulfilled she is being single and dating online just a year shy of 60 due to her intense sense of self-love and life-earned integrity. Her “life is the result of what she thinks of herself”, right? But you men better… Read more »
Is anyone else here concerned with the increasing number of disgusting hedious female blubber hogs being presented in the media and entertainment industries in recent years? Have you seen the advertisements for the movie “TAMMY”? Several females I know commented recently to me that “a lot of men like heavy women”. This is absolute “pig shit” and I don’t buy it. Just last week a female friend of mine made the comment that she is “happy Adele made it big because it’s about time a full figured woman got successful in the music industry”. This was coming from a very… Read more »
@boxterpaul
Daves response is NOT an LJBF.
LJBF is always a lie.
Dave was not lying.
Robin Korth does not have a problem with Dave or the male gender. Robin Korth has a problem with Robin Korth accepting the truth and reality. She is angry with the truth and reality. Dave and the male gender are her scapegoats. Her attitude and behavior are as insane as someone getting mad at the universe or God because the grass got wet when it rained.
She’s not hideous, but he does nothing.
I looked at a picture of her, and to me, compared to the “3” I mentioned above she’s hideous, As some one else mention up thread “59 going on 80”.
Hey Rollo, Going to point out a mistake both Dave & Robin made that they didn’t seem to “get.” Indeed, I was surprised it wasn’t mentioned by anyone here yet: Dave is 55. Robin is 59. No good can come from that kind of age difference. Guys in their 50’s should have an Iron Rule that they date only women younger than them. Dave was obviously blinded by the things he appreciated about Robin- until the clothes were off. When the blunt, cock-shrinking truth of what a woman 4 years older looks like in the fifth decade of life. Robin… Read more »
I see it as women take over corporate management roles – and then overtly prefer female hires.
I got hit with that one. Too funny though – as usually happens she ran her dept (in a company that caters to engineers) into the ground. Upper management has throttled her back some – but they are now stuck with her and the rest of the incompetents she brought on board.
Life can be sweet. Even when it hurts.
@asdgamer… I’d have to third that. I’m sure a big part of it is game that I’ve learned late in life from Rollo/others, but as someone who’s almost 50, I’m finding that women (and young women too) find me way more desirable than at any other time in my life right now. If anything, I think the peak SMV chart for males could be moved out to the right by another decade or more **IF** men really take care of themselves. The only thing I can attribute it to is that we’re more worldly maybe? More sophisticated? More life experiences?… Read more »
Having said the above, though. I’d like to compliment Robin on 1 thing. She’s body positive, and has no inhibitions about being naked. That’s actually very important for me in a woman. The crippling prudishness about nakedness and body parts that so many American women have is one reason I find it much more fun to meet women in sex-positive regions of the world. This is especially crippling for American women as they age. When even women who at one time were freely naked with their man, start to refuse to be in the bathroom with their hubby, or turn… Read more »
@ jf12
““I’m not feeling anything”, by either one, *should* have resulted in someone trying to make them feel something. That’s what they were there for.”
I agree. What’s up with them lying there doing nothing for three nights?
It sounds like some kind of weird game of chicken. If either one of them tried something, they would ‘lose’. WTF?
Maybe it was a character test by Dave.
Glenn – great comment. Really painted a tragic, relate-able picture with words there. I see in my mind – my late grandmother beaming at Christmas-time…and then I imagine Ms. Korth. It almost evokes compassion for women who’ve chosen Ms. Korth’s path – even being that it was of their own decades-long volition.
I am both amused and saddened by Robin Korth’s silliness. At 59 years old she makes a great public example for why a man should never take a woman seriously. Her reaction is that of a child having a tantrum because she couldn’t get her sweetie, rather than that of a functional human being filled with the inner grace and poise of her years of experience.
@ Rollo – More genius. Indeed, she’s got one set of books for her and other women, and another set for men. I read the lonely old man post before and it was great. But I’m going to be honest with you and everyone here. This is a hugely difficult change to make at 52. I realize I don’t have any choice – my old approach and strategies did not work and in fact destroyed my life in some very real ways. So I don’t want to “go back”. But at 52, the reflexiveness of assenting to female imperatives is… Read more »
Glenn – “Now what am I up to? Just getting laid and eating until I die? I write and play music, I have friends and interests and have lived a rich life. But there seems to be no there there sometimes”
This is the crux of all of my questions, and hardship with reality.
Hi Rollo, I’m going to read finding Darwins God too. Thanks for the recommendation. Glen, you wrote, While my husband/provider/protector life was hard, it at least made sense to me. Now what am I up to? Just getting laid and eating until I die? … there seems to be no there there sometimes.A big part of what I got out of being dad/husband was being other focused. It made me be bigger, less selfish, more successful and gave me a sense of purpose…” Deep down that’s what I want too. Way more than the sex actually. Feminism is a poison… Read more »
@ Bad and Nathan – Don’t mistake me, I don’t want it back. My marriage was a nightmare. I would never marry again. I think an old saying is apropos here. “You can’t turn a pickle into a cucumber again.” I’m long past wanting it intellectually and at times feel completely free, but much of the acculturation and habitual way of being still drive me at times. I’ve been watching my young nephew very closely and am horrified by what he’s already subjected to – and he’s not even 5 yet (soon). His mom – my sis – disciplines him… Read more »
Can anyone point to the part in her article where she doesn’t treat “Dave” as an object to pump her (considerable) ego?
Dave isn’t a sex object, he is a person.
Looking for meaning in life? Become an engineer. I started on that path at age 10. Best decision I ever made.
No degree? I worked my way up from bench technician to aerospace engineer. Along the way I designed the I/O board for the worlds first BBS (a precursor of the ‘net). I have gotten and still get more satisfaction from my work than all the fucking I ever did. And I did a fair amount. My first girlfriend taught me Game. Back in ’62. She had a thing for virgins. Lucky me!
Let me add that at age 17.9 I was thoroughly betaized. She cured me of the habit.
This conflation of personal self-worth estimation and sexual market value (or believe of the sexual market value to which one is entitled) is incidentally the chief psychological problem of spree killer, Eliot Rogers. He had money, what he thought were good looks, some modest cachet with his dad’s movie gigs, a nice car, etc., and he also considered himself an interesting and intelligent gentleman, and yet he couldn’t get laid. So he was furious. Furious! We see him as a pathetic, damage, and ultimately dangerous type. Yet for every Eliot Rogers, there is 10-30% of the female world, career women… Read more »
OT but a new app called Happn is gaining popularity in UK.
“‘Happn is literally the most useful app ever,’ gushes another Scottish user. ‘See a hot guy in the street? You can get to talk to him just by passing by.'”
Technology will drastically change the SMP even further as women place more importance on app social buffers. I can see hypergamy getting more vicious than it already is for those who aren’t aesthetically pleasing to the eye:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2691744/Watch-Tinder-New-French-dating-app-launches-UK.html
This article by Korth was Christmas come early for all the RP blogs, pure ducks in a barrel she made it so easy. I cannot wait for the next even more outlandishly solipsistic article to come forth from Huffpo
@ Glenn July 16th, 2014 at 6:33 pm:
Every word of what you wrote here is the pure truth. I’ve read Ester Vilar’s books and they were written a couple of years ago.
You nailed it when you said that women feel superior because the media and others tell them that they are. Thus they view men as inferior to them. We are percieved to be lesser human beings, being so positively discriminated we have no other choice.
However, I think it was G. Jung who said that it will end as soon as men view females as competitors.
You’re missing the point, all. It’s not about Korth being entitled to sex or treating Dave like an object (seriously?). It is about his shitty handling of this relationship. He knew what she looked like right away. It’s not like she wore a full body suit or a burka during their time together prior to getting in bed. He should have known from the start he was not sexually attracted to her and spared her and himself the ridiculous situations in bed, and the even more ridiculous, and cruel, “explanations and advice” phase. Him telling her to modify her aged… Read more »
“It’s disruptive to her self-perceptions and ego-investments when that presumption is challenged by a man who doesn’t want to fuck her for reasons based on the intrinsic value she believes she’s entitled to by virtue of maturity and imaginings of self-sufficiency. Just as women aren’t aroused by men’s own self-concepts of virtuousness and aspirations of higher purpose, men aren’t aroused by whatever ephemeral self-perceptions a woman may have.” EXACTLY! However, I would add that the common male equivilent is the fallacious belief that by provisioning for a woman, he can “earn” her love/sex. (Buy her a ring, buy her a… Read more »
She wants him to WANT her body based on her “true looks” but she’s using make-up, presumably wearing flattering clothes, high heels, stockings, etc., all the usual tricks of the trade…but she draws the line at a little lingerie? It’s not like he asked her to wear a rubber full-body gimp suit or dress up as a Catholic schoolgirl (or schoolboy)…
She took it personal. I mean do you guys really think she would take it any other way? Women feel entitled to attraction from men no matter what. I’ve had this happen countless of times (not with older women) with past girls I’ve dated. Something they would do would be a turn off and when they would try to initiate sex and I decline, I’d get hateful bullshit like “I’m going to get someone else” or “if you are not fucking me then you are fucking someone else.” Ridiculous.
[…] Separating Values (The Rational Male) […]
Rollo I think you’re painting the picture prettier than what it really is.
Yes men have projects and life works, but to a woman who does not find a man fuckable (for whatever reason) he has no more worth than a pack mule his personal value is ZERP based on my 20+yrs of navigating the smp.
I have friends who’ve met women who are in their 30’s, attractive, and dating career men who are 50 years old and older. The women aren’t sexually attracted to these men, they wouldn’t be sleeping with my friends if they had sexual lust for the older men they are in relationships with. Women of average and better-looks than most become involved with plain-looking men who are artists, writers, business men and the sorts because they’re securing their own futures via their vaginae. The women who can make their own money are only interested in physically attractive men. I’ve known plenty… Read more »
“The article got over one million likes on Facebook. The Feminine Imperative working in unison. ”
Not really as big a number as it could be considering.
It made Oprah a super rich woman.
Martell,
right on the nose.
@JGalt re: “The only thing I can attribute it to is that we’re more worldly maybe? More sophisticated? More life experiences?”
I do not think it is true of a *handsome* man that women are more attracted to him later in life. But a huge proportion of unattractive men are unhandsome specifically in a beta-y girl-y baby-facedness, which ruggedizes but slowly as we age.
Completely agree with Ben on this one that it’s Dave’s fault for dragging it out like this. On the second date with a girl we were making out at my place and I discovered her mouth was completely disgusting in both taste and appearance. I never contacted her after that night and we both moved on. Why bother to ignite desire for her if it’s not already there?
@Urban
Flipping the script on an objectifying and weak woman is serious black knight behavior sure, but there is no inherent “fault” or “morality” attached to it.
Maybe some day she will finally learn ya?! Nah, of course she won’t. She will just fall back to the social salve of herd ego protection.
Look, for God’s sake, the guy is a freakin’ chump. He wastes his and the woman’s time when he cant get it up for her. Why? The lady is clear that she is not offended by his comments but rather the way in which this pathetic beta could not clearly say what he actually wanted. This is just pathetic.
Women can choose to have sex even when they feel no attraction.
They routinely do this, calculatingly, to make their lives easier.
They should be grateful our bodies don’t lie. Would they rather deal with someone who’s just like them? Who would ever trust anyone?
If men supposedly oppress with our erections (rape culture), then how are we also oppressing them with limpdicks?
If we’re at the point where it doesn’t matter what we do or how we respond – it’s always our fault – who’s really trying to do the oppressin roun here?
I find it interesting that in the article’s comments the first, go-to criticism of Dave is to question his sexual performance capacity. It can’t possibly be because Robin isn’t ‘Beautiful®’ (SMV=PV), so it has to be because Dave has a sexual dysfunction. So the pathologizing of the male sex response ensues; Dave (like ALL MEN) must be addicted to porn and therefore can’t get it up for a “real woman”, or his requests of lingerie or sexy behaviors are deviant because only a man lacking in manhood would ever expect such a thing from an obviously ‘Beautiful®’ woman. There is… Read more »
Beta guy messed up so what? Why didn’t she in all her wisdom not know he was beta? Still she should be grateful he made any effort. The same way a 25 yr old beta is grateful for a missionary pity fuck. She is not in a position to complain.
A strong independent woman would taken it in stride, lughed it off, and not run to the keyboard to shame the guy.
Hopefully Justin wont mind my posting these:
Pretzel of Hypergamy laid clean and bare, Rollo. If the guy is wrong (and presumed defective) for not wanting to fuck her, then swimsuit models are equally wrong for not wanting to fuck regular dudes who think they have well developed internal value. I used to think Hypergamy was mostly a young woman’s thing – a tool for securing both the seed they want and the provisioning for their offspring, even if the two come from different sources – but this 59 year old woman, who needs neither seed nor money from a man, is showing us that the kernel… Read more »
Why then Robin, do your hottest sisters and daughters like to fuck INSANE MISOGYNISTS and not the line-toe-ers?
On the male brain and objectification: http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/02/19/women.bikinis.objects/index.html?_s=PM:HEALTH