I had an interesting experience last Friday. I had finished a good workout and was on my way home when Bebé Tomassi texted me asking if I would pick up a sandwich for her from Subway and bring it to her at a school function. Sure, why not.
I get into the local Subway at around 6:30 pm and it being a Friday night and Subway isn’t the most happening place to be on a Friday, I’m there with only a couple ahead of me in line. The woman looked to be late 20’s, I’d guess 27-28, and not too bad looking – 5′ 9″-10″, blonde – if she’d been dressed better she might rate a 7 on the Tomassi scale. The guy she’s with was thin, short mop of hair, about the same height, maybe around her age.
What made them notable was the gender dynamic between them I picked up on immediately. Within the first 3 minutes of coming up behind them in line the guy had made every Beta tell I think Roissy has a term for. When I got in line he was hugging up on her from behind, leaning in and she stood there like a tree. His posture and body language, as well as his attitude instantly told me this couple’s relational dynamic – he was the qualifying Beta and she was the mouthy, hard-to-please Hyena.
She noticed me when I came up. I was the only other person in Subway and I still had my gym clothes on. Some top 40 crap song came on the overhead and she blathered out, “I hate this shit music. They should put Metallica or Slayer on, that would be funny.” as if she expected the Beta to ask the management to switch stations. She gives me a glance as if offering an opening after that comment. I order my daughters sandwich.
“No! Don’t get me lemonade, it’s too syrupy here, get me diet Dr. Pepper.” she belts out to the Beta dutifully getting their drinks. The sandwich artist asks here what she’d like on her sandwich – reaches over and touches my forearm (IOI, kino) “This might take a while, I’m very choosy”, she says to me in her ‘tone’.
“I’m not in a hurry.”
Sandwiches get made, Beta pays. My girl’s sandwich is done at the same time (she’s not too choosy), and as Alpha Girl and Beta Boy are about to leave she grabs both their sandwiches and mine ‘by mistake’. The Subway cashier stops her to tell her she picked up my sandwich (remember, we’re the only people in the store), Beta puffs a nervous laugh, she looks at me, “Ohh, sorry,..” hands me the bag and holds eye contact just that beat longer than normal.
“Come on we gotta go.”, Beta reaches around her waist, and like the cane that pulls a bad actor off the stage, they exit.
Passive Game
I did nothing to actively Game this girl, she was Gaming herself. I’ve seen this before. There’s a branch of Game (I think Roosh mentions it) that speculates that sometimes girls will Game themselves and all you need to do is not fuck it up. Sometimes less is more; when a woman is already attracted to you, Game becomes remaining aware of the indicators, allowing the proper flow and just presuming the sale.
I preface today’s post with this because it ties in nicely to a particular discussion last week’s post sparked. I’ll admit, being married kind of puts a Man in a ‘nothing to lose’ perspective. A lot of guys like to speculate that a wedding ring makes a man more desirable – it doesn’t. If married men are at all attractive to women it’s not due to some fantasy of preselection by his wife making him more attractive as a long term prospect; it’s because, generally, he’s not actively pursuing women. There’s a certain power in indifference – you’re far more desirable when you aren’t qualifying yourself to women, and no guy is more indifferent than one who knows with all certainty who he’ll be banging that evening.
However, there is also an amplification of attraction and arousal for a more Alpha man when a woman is in a relationship with a man she perceives as Beta. A similar amplification also becomes heightened when a woman is the focus of one or more Beta orbiters. The persistent affirmation by, and supplication of, Beta men puts that Alpha in a spotlight. A constant atmosphere of Beta attention and concern has an effect of preselecting that (more) Alpha Man for a woman. A common complaint many Beta men share is being an emotional tampon for a woman, listening and commiserating with her about the ‘asshole boyfriend’, only to have her desire for him become more amplified and off she goes for her desired sex with him again. The Beta(s) rationalizes this as ‘a moment of weakness’ for his special girl, but is unaware that his constant Beta affirmations contribute to her attraction to that Alpha.
As I stated, I wouldn’t have had to apply much Game to the Subway girl – the Beta boyfriend had already done a lot of the heavy lifting. This particular dynamic is something to remember if you’re Gaming a girl with a boyfriend or a girl who drops a boyfriend disclaimer into casual conversation. A girl’s boyfriend may not be the Beta this guy was, but if he is, let that form the basis of your Game. I should also add that this ‘Beta does the lifting’ dynamic is the root of AMOGing and running boyfriend destroyer Game. You should also be aware when this tactic is being run on yourself.
Husband = Beta
Now before you think I’ve gone completely mercenary, this incident made me think of this comment from last week’s post from Lucas Bly:
So essentially, I’m reading the last four paragraphs of your essay to read:
“She married you because you are a provider, not because she was attracted to you. She’ll never be as attracted to you as she was to her previous Alpha Fucks.”
That’s a tough pill to swallow, my brother.
The issue being, of course, what to do with yourself, and with her, after you discover you got gamed into that kind of marriage.
Here’s a tougher pill to swallow, she’ll never be as attracted to you as she is of the guy’s she sees as Alpha after you’re married too.
In the interests of full disclosure, Lucas had petitioned me earlier about his particular situation being similar to the guy in Saving the Best. What the kid in the Subway made me think of was a wondering if he had at one time been relatively Alpha enough to attract this dominant woman, or if she perceived him in a good provider role. She certainly fit the script of the 27-29 year old woman looking to cash out of the SMP before her attractiveness capital (such as it was) expired. But on the other hand, she wasn’t averse to giving a perceptual Alpha IOIs right under his nose. It’s an interesting passive cuckolding effect.
Lucas’ musings prompted the question: Does an Alpha (perceptually) drop in status for a woman once he’s committed to monogamy with her?
One common situation I get from newly red pill men is that after a few years they find themselves trapped in a sexless marriage or living arrangement and they want to know how to get back to the hot monkey sex they had (or their wives had with previous lovers) in the early stages of their relationship. Once they become red pill / Game aware and realize what they are and how they got there, the next question is how to get back to what he had before.
The question is usually along the lines of “Help Rollo, I used to be really Alpha back in the day, but now my wife sees me as a Beta provider, what do I do?” Virtually every man on the Married Man Sex Life forums looks for a solution there for some variation of this situation, but is it that marriage itself, by it’s very nature predisposes a woman to view her husband in a Beta status? The go-to definition is Beta Provider, not Alpha provider.
Hypergamy being what it is, it’s Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks; if a woman, being the arbiter and decider with whom she will pair-off with in the long term, has agreed to commitment with a man, it would follow that on some level (whether true or not) she believes this man will be a provider and parent for her and future children. So the question then isn’t so much about a man backsliding to Beta after having been considered Alpha enough to fuck the woman who would be his wife, that may be, but rather it’s the familiarity and provisioning that define marriage makes a woman consider him Beta-provider by default.
Dr. Warren Farrell explored this in some of his writing. He posited that the familiarity of marriage predisposes women to consider their husbands as family members, thus the concept of sex with a family member is repelling for women. This is further complicated by parenthood; when boyfriend becomes husband, and then husband becomes Daddy, the family familiarity dynamic makes having sex less and less appealing.
I think there may be something to this, but when you combine it with a fattening and less appealing Daddy, and Mommy, the complex worsens. Thus any strange, outsider, Alpha becomes the stuff of fantasy for women.
Burninator picks up the narrative:
“After the marriage, sometimes just a few short years, then we hear of the sexless husband, fully betatized, begging for sex. But based on his previous experience with the woman, what should he have been looking for to tip him off?
My question is pointed more towards the men who are alpha who get duped.”
He’s referring of course to the husband in the Saving the Best post. I’m not entirely sure most guys, and especially men with a Beta mindset, are very receptive to the red flag warnings telegraphed by women, but Deti makes a good stab at it:
1. A guy in that situation should take note of the kinds and types of men she was attracted to/fucked before. Huge red flag if you are markedly different from those kinds of men. For example: She used to date guys in shitty bands and small time pro athletes. But she’s now taken quite a shine to mid level business managers and guys with steady jobs. Indicates she’s changing lanes; going for the beta bucks. This woman is for dating; not for marriage.
2. She was a slut with other guys; makes you wait; then when she finally does take the plunge, the sex is of pornstar quality. Seems to be putting on an act; a performer on stage.
3. Entitlement mentality surrounding sex. To her, sex is a commodity which she uses as a currency for exchange. She expects something in return for giving you sex.
4. Firmly controls the sex. Won’t do certain things; will have sex only at certain times; doesn’t like certain sexual acts because “only sluts do THAT” and “I don’t want you to think I’m a slut”. Immediately gets up after sex to expel the semen because “I don’t want to get a yeast infection” or to take care of the wet spot.
5. Closely related to this is that she remains in control of herself during sex. Never seems to be completely free or enjoying herself; always assessing her own performance and your evaluation of her sexually.
6. Wants to move rapidly to commitment. Puts out overt and subtle hints that she expects ever increasing investment and commitment in exchange for the sex she’s doling out.
These are pretty good tells for a woman looking to cash out of the SMP with a provider, but again, I’m not entirely convinced that women in the Epiphany Phase of life are reserving these tells exclusively for Beta men.
Validational Sex vs. Transactional Sex
Commenter jf12 brings us to the heart of the matter:
At J4G we were discussing validational sex vs transactional sex. I pointed out it was really primate alpha sex vs beta sex. In alpha sex, the female gladly services the male, and she gladly pays him (bananas and grooming). In beta sex, the female ungratefully requires servicing from the male, and demands payment from him (bananas and grooming).
It should also be noted that when a female primate does engage in a transactional sex exchange with a Beta male, it’s during the down cycle of her menstruation (point of lowest potential fertility). As with female primates (including humans), when she is in the proliferative phase of her menstrual cycle (just pre-ovulation, and the highest potential fertility) her biochemistry predisposes her to seek out the sexual attentions of more Alpha (masculinized) ‘good genes’ males.
I covered this fundamental at length in Schedules of Mating. Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks is the behavioral manifestation of feminine hypergamy and the dualistic nature of women’s sexual strategy as prompted by female biology. From an evolutionary / adaptive species-survival standpoint, women’s sexuality is nothing if not pragmatic and often opportunistic.
Most often when I’m asked the “How do I get my wife to fuck me again?” it’s coming from a man who once thought he had the best his wife had to offer, sexually, emotionally, etc. only to discover she had or still has the potential to be much more than he can coax from her or she’s willing to give to him. Again, I have to come back to the question, does his being her husband make her impression of him Beta by default?
I’ve had the premise that only Beta men consider getting married thrown at me on occasion. I think this presumption may be putting the cart before the horse – maybe, eventually, a man cannot help but be perceived as a Beta by his wife because he is her husband, a parent and provider (or should be). Many divorced men express disbelief when they discover just how wildly sexual their ex-wives can be with their new lovers. They take it as some personal failing that they were unable to bring out the slut in their wives when they were married, but I might argue that their position as husband and father made this impossible for them.
There’s a lot more I could write about this. What do you do if you find yourself in this situation? Leave, divorce, cheat on her? That may be enough to push past that comfortable familiarity. I can think of one married blogger who’s husband cheated on her with the result being her unconditional submission. Dread Game, both overt and soft dread, might cut through that familiarity. Strong Frame control is the lynchpin to a good relationship, ensuring that your SMV is above that of your wife or LTR, and knowing the power this has can keep an Alpha impression functional.
However, in the end, you have to evaluate the worth of changing yourself in order to reestablish that Alpha sex connection. If divorce isn’t an option for you due to religious convictions, then you’ll have to factor that into your evaluation. If not, then you’ll have to consider the depth and importance your commitment means to you versus the effort (or even having to make an effort) you’ll make to reestablish yourself. You’ll need to consider this with all the logic and rationalism at your disposal, divorced from emotional considerations – most times that’s the most difficult part. You’ll want to couch your decision making process based on Relational Equity, but you have to set aside that emotionalism and use cold pragmatism.
Another fantastic post, thanks. I alpha’d a high smv woman, punching my weight, and married her but she kept trying to beta me which I would alternately fall for and resist. We’d have transactional sex after entering this phase of our relationship for the most part, with the exception of when I would go out after work and come home later than I said I would after having a few drinks (we lived 90 mins outside NYC in the burbs at the time and I’d be out in Manhattan). On these nights we’d invariably have wild sex when I got… Read more »
Excellent and helpful article as usual. Non-Gaming has been particularly effective for me and can be for any Alpha who finds themselves standing out in an ocean of Betas.
Poor subway sandwich beta boy. That must have been painful for him to witness! Especially the touch on the forearm. If he saw that and still wanted that woman he is just a pathetic pos. If a woman did that in front of me the only way to make up for it would to submit to my most extreme sexual fetish’s involving dog collars, begging, etc. Otherwise I would walk. I’m sure he just happily ate his sandwich though, just glad to be in her presence. Pathetic pos.
my standard game. great observation.
Actually, Rollo hit on this in previous columns. His advice to casually and non-verbally communicate to your wife that, if you wanted to, you could dump her and quickly and easily find a younger, thinner woman to replace her. You communicate this by staying fit, keeping socially active, dressing well, and keeping an active interest in stuff outside the home. Casually and lightly flirt with her girlfriends or other women in the general vicinity. As long as you don’t go too far with it, she won’t mention it, but she will notice. Initiate sex a little less often than she… Read more »
I have memories from childhood of (then not-so-named) aspects of dread game being denigrated in society as immoral or unethical behavior from husbands. However, I think Spengler’s law applies even here. This, to my mind, makes such harsh elements of game not only acceptable, but necessary to use against any woman who would hold the thoughts in her head that might lead to her disrespect of the relationship she committed to.
Good post Rollo, needs more follow on for the crowd you’re talking to.
Dissenting opinion: Why the FRAG do we think these women are worth all these hoops? Being married and having enough maturity to realize that you have responsibilities and you need to meet them regularly Betaizes you? So, once you become comfortable and familiar, no more wet panties in your future, so you have to keep dancing the dance to keep HER interested? And you’re coming up with all the resources? Meanwhile she’s hitting the Wall, possibly getting fat, and BLEEDING SMV points? She’s worth less as time goes on, and you’re worth more, yet the MAN has to keep gaming??… Read more »
I went through a similar thing. I beta’d hardcore after the marriage. This is coming from a guy who sent his (then) girlfriend home from the bar in a cab so that he could keep partying with his friends…and she didn’t even complain (at the time). Not that that makes me king alpha, but most betas wouldn’t have gotten away with that so I was doing all right for myself. Anyway, when this was going on I argued with my wife a lot. I never let her think for a moment that I was okay with the situation. For instance,… Read more »
“ is it that marriage itself, by it’s very nature predisposes a woman to view her husband in a Beta status?” I could be wrong, but I would say no. Yes — marriage does place a man in a weaker position. A bachelor can walk away and easily move on. I’ve done it dozens of times. But a husband can’t so easily. Divorce law favors the woman and, if there’s children, she can nearly break him – suck half of his property (Heather Mills, “self made” millionaire), take the house, isolate him from the children, and make him pay oppressive… Read more »
Have to say that Bachelorocles’ little essay matches my previously-married marriage experience, and observation of other married women, and women in general. It’s a hard game. Well said, Bachelorocles.
As for redpillsetsmefree’s question, “What the FRAG makes men think women are worth all of THAT?”; it’s really all about the sex. So the real question is, does the sex make it all worth it?
THere is one thing I have always wondered about. A lot of wives don`t fuck their men around ovulation, just in the non fertile period. That makes sense. However, a bunch of people also report the wives only fucking them when they are ovulating. Presumably the later case is because that is the only time she is really horny anyway. But it does not make sense to then have sex with the Beta. How can one explain the two different patterns.
does his being her husband make her impression of him Beta by default? Yes and no. By being a husband he has lost some of that air of mystery and excitement. A woman likes to chase a man and capture him. Prove herself and be chosen. I think it’s harder for a husband to maintain that once he marry’s her. However, it can be done. Carlos hits on it a bit above: You communicate this by staying fit, keeping socially active, dressing well, and keeping an active interest in stuff outside the home. Casually and lightly flirt with her girlfriends… Read more »
>I’ll ask it again: What the FRAG makes men think women are worth all of THAT? I explained that to you almost a week ago: http://redpillpushers.wordpress.com/2014/02/17/impressions/#comments Bachelorocles just misses the heart of it: the third party in the marriage contract, the community. Marriage is also a contract between the couple on one side and a community on the other. Most if not all communities are now grossly violating that contract in favor of women and against men. And that’s what the manosphere really overlooks, because I see more analysis of ‘the female will to dominate’ in the manosphere than anywhere… Read more »
The unfortunate reality is a woman wants the biggest slice of the cake that usually brings unhappiness. This large portion comes in the form of a passive nice guy who will give her a weeding day and kids to show off to the world. Once there, she is underwhelmed. As for most men, any little power they did possess in the relationship is thrown away once the knot is tied (unless a pre-nuptial is the sensible choice taken).
Worth a look at the below link for how women act in this process:
http://www.vinaywcmd.com/2014/02/women-blaming-baby-burden-blues.html
Also worth mentioning: asset protection. Hide and legally protect as much of your money as you can, possibly all. And start as soon as you can, don’t wait until marriage. If you are married, start stashing away money in a hidden, protected emergency divorce fund. Seek out lawyers and accountants to help you. Even if your marriage looks great, do it. Women start preparing for a divorce weeks or months in advance so she can take the most. By the time you are hit with the announcement, she has everything set up already. If she can’t rob you of your… Read more »
“Again, I have to come back to the question, does his being her husband make her impression of him Beta by default?” Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. There is no other answer.
I believe it is indeed ONLY Dread game that can make a familiar husband more alpha to his wife, but too-active Dread is identical to abuse. Rollo, you mentioned Passive game “I wasn’t doing nothing!” concerning the Subway hyena. Is there a version of Passive Dread that doesn’t necessarily involve strange women making passes at you in front of your wife? I’m begininng to suspect not.
As for redpillsetsmefree’s question, “What the FRAG makes men think women are worth all of THAT?”; it’s really all about the sex. So the real question is, does the sex make it all worth it? Correction: The implied promise of sex, which may or may not be delivered upon at the whim of the woman concerned. Remember Briffault’s Law. Marriage, cohabitation and other forms of exclusive commitment, especially when subjected to unequal law a la Marriage 2.0, establish betahood as the default setting. If you are alpha enough to break and/or stay out of the Marriage Friend Zone, good for… Read more »
Re: bananas and grooming. I’m starting to think (and everyone sighs relief and says “Finally!”) that one way to start turning around a LTR is to educate wives about the necessity of primate females giving bananas and grooming the males. Make her see that she *has* to submit to making him sandwiches, and she *has* to submit to giving him backrubs.
If even after educating her she still resists, then there may be no other solution at all than rubbing her nose in it with Active Dread.
one way to start turning around a LTR is to educate wives about the necessity of primate females giving bananas and grooming the males. Make her see that she *has* to submit to making him sandwiches, and she *has* to submit to giving him back rubs. Unless she is extremely religious and was raised that way; NO. You are making the familiar mistake in assuming men and women think the same way. We decidedly do NOT. If you try to explain this idea of having to submit to most women they will simply look at you with disgust and begin… Read more »
I guess that means cohabitation is better than marriage, perpetual dread game and only provisional provider.
Interestingly long term cohabitations fail four times more often than marriage.
Regarding long term cohabitation failing four times more than marriage: I think much of that has to do with the woman not getting her marriage box checked in a timely manner as well as married men being far more reluctant to break it off.
I imagine these two factors to be more salient than marriage’s marvelous intrinsic ability to keep people together.
Wow that woman! Yuck! I wonder if she would’ve been dressed better if he’d been an alpha. Poor man, every man needs game.
@Acksiom
I read what you wrote last week. And I disagree.
Yes, a man is less attractive to a woman after he has committed to her. The man is less attractive to the woman with each love proof and each act of caring and devotion. Just like the woman is less attractive after you have had sex with her. Or like a meal is less attractive when your stomach is full. But attraction is only part of the game. Balance it with comfort. Whenever you provide comfort you reduce attraction. Whenever you provide attraction you reduce comfort. Tension needs a release, and the release loses its value if there’s no tension… Read more »
@Rollo — Another great blog: ‘… Dr. Warren Farrell explored this in some of his writing. He posited that the familiarity of marriage predisposes women to consider their husbands as family members, thus the concept of sex with a family member is repelling for women…’ I actually had this objection levelled at me by my wife: that I reminded her too much of her father for her to desire me sexually! WFT??!! It is worth noting that our son was a small boy at the time, but her *reasoning* for not wanting to have sex with me never changed. @Bachelorocles… Read more »
Is there anything that the well established Beta Boy in Subway could have done differently that night to change the situation into his favor? I suspect that he was rather checkmated at that point, and he would have to leave Subway acknowledging that he was defeated , and he would have to start a new more Alpha game from that moment onward (providing he’s not totally oblivious, which he obviously is).
@Stingray Re: “You can’t explain it to her. You have to make her feel it” yes, but. Hope springs eternal. I imagine that a hypothetical intelligent woman could be at least curious enough and honest enough within herself to admit that some of her feelings are caused by her behaviors rather than merely the other way around, and that therefore she could choose to engage in behaviors (that necessarily she doesn’t already want to) in order to change her feelings. And thus to get rid of some of the feelings of contempt and disrespect to her husband, she could choose… Read more »
The explanation can come after she has accepted it as an (emotional) fact. At that point, though, for her it’s just common sense and no explanation is needed.
A rational explanation after the fact, in some cases, can kill the magic for her.
Pretending that a woman understands the world in man’s rational terms is like pretending that a man understands the world with a female range of emotions. Its non necessary and if you achieve it you’re probably destroying the subject during the experiment.
Re: Yohami and comfort and attraction. The opposite of comfort is danger, and the opposite of attraction is revulsion. Attractive danger is attractive strange, while revulsive comfort is revulsive familiar. Starting from comfort and trying to get away from too much comfort, one has to introduce more danger specifically, not attraction specifically. One never wants to get away from “too much” attraction, but definitely away from too much danger.
On validational vs transactional sex: the one who is the least ragingly horny in a relationship will control which way the sex leans. I have a pretty intense libido and my fiance is incredibly attractive to me. Ergo, he has more control over sex, even though we co-habit and are for all intents and purposes living as a married couple. I’d suggest that that is the key difference between alphas, perceived alphas (remember, a high-ranking beta is some girl’s perfect guy, the same way an attractive 8 is some guy’s perfect 10) and alpha-come-beta, perceived beta and true beta is… Read more »
TL;DR: Don’t let a woman think sex is the only thing she has to give you to be a good wife. Don’t let her take control of sex and use it to bargain with. Keep an upper or equal hand in terms of sexual interactions and you’ll have a woman who’s eager to repay you by being a wife to your provider.
“And thus to get rid of some of the feelings of contempt and disrespect to her husband, she could choose to treat him (at least somewhat) more like a primate alpha male” Say you dislike Obama. How does it make you feel if you’re told you should treat him like the most grand and wise leader of the world, and that by you doing so he’ll actually do a better job? How about if he’s the one making that request? * * * Some dynamics only work with parents-kids and after you removed hierachy. Treat your son like he’s a… Read more »
Rollo, this is a surprisingly self-deprecating answer to my original question. Thank you for the thoughtful internal reflection, and for talking me (and who knows how many other frustrated married men) off the proverbial cliff that Saving the Best left us teetering on. What I’m reading you write here today, is that marriage kills sex for every man, and especially fathers. This (reassuringly) is not necessarily due to a character failure of the man, but as a natural consequence of marriage. Now you’re stepping dangerously close to traditional marriage counselling territory. One might rephrase an interpretation of today’s post as… Read more »
I’ll say it again: Today’s men suffer so greatly from low self-esteem until they can’t even see it any more. You’re spending your life chasing and trying to please a creature who is doing nothing but taking your resources as fast as she can….and the more you try and please her, the more you guarantee she will soon be opening her legs to someone else. And for what? For the few moments of pleasure she gives you with that messy smelly fur trap that is her crotch….and you’ll never know how many other people she’s really had there, nor how… Read more »
jf12, The opposite of comfort is danger, and the opposite of attraction is revulsion. Attractive danger is attractive strange, while revulsive comfort is revulsive familiar. Starting from comfort and trying to get away from too much comfort, one has to introduce more danger specifically, not attraction specifically. One never wants to get away from “too much” attraction, but definitely away from too much danger True, I wasnt making a case about opposites though. Attraction and comfort nullify, but also increase each other when done in a cycle. When you’re an awesome man and girls on a social environment are checking… Read more »
Seems like too much work… rather just avoid marriage altogether.
jf12, Yes, it happens, but it’s rare. I would strongly recommend to any man to never bank on that happening. But it’s also as Yohami says, she has to accept it as an emotional fact. I would argue with this point, however, At that point, though, for her it’s just common sense and no explanation is needed. Today, this is rare. A woman might be married to a dominant man but be pulled in the opposite direction by the female herd. Her instincts might say, submit and respect this man; keep the tests to a minimum, but the women around… Read more »
TL:DR-
Game is not optional if you’re a man dealing with a woman in *any* capacity, not just romantically.
Girl Game is both natured and nurtured into them…this is why Guy Game is a requirement.
Protect your assets. They’re YOURS.
Great post. I just had a conversation with the girl I’m banging. She’s a cute 7, divorced, not that much experience with guys. But she related a story about how some time ago she was with a “hot friend” in a bar and some guy bought them drinks and then said “I like you, come over to my place.” My girl was laughing about this…while in bed with me. She found the whole idea of such lame overt displays of desperation laughable—after having just blown me and then banging our brains out. The contrast was funny to me too. I… Read more »
@Yohami re: “destroying the subject during the experiment.” Yes, but, since the desired *effect* of the experiment is to change her, it seems to me that one good way to achieve the change is to tell her you’re merely experimenting …
The purpose of nondestructive testing/experiments is to gather information without effecting (permanent) change in the subject.
@Stingray, thxs, food for thought … “(I know how dominance and attraction work quite well but my husband can still get me every single time even though I know very well what he is doing. I’ve heard other women say the same. I would never count on this occurring, though).” In pursuit of Practice game, in order to build up an abundance mentality for myself and to prepare for the potentially necessary overt active Dread game of actively picking up another woman in front of my wife, I have done Game game: I tell a woman up front that I… Read more »
“I tell a woman up front that I just want to practice picking her up and I don’t actually mean to go through with anything.”
Women love that
@Yohami re: Obama. The point is, treating Obama like a better leader does not automatically make him a better leader. But a woman treating a man like her alpha DOES make him her alpha because that is how I define an alpha: by how women treat him.
jf12, it would make him a more dominant (better on an emotional level) leader. My point though is what do *you* *feel* when the request is made, and a woman would have that feel multiplied by a hundred, sans the analytical practical part.
If she has to treat him like a better man for him to be a better, man, her gut will tell her she should actually get a better man and she’s wasting her time here.
@Yohami, again, if you’re dissatisfied with the tautology, consider it an experiment. Then the hypothesis is “If the woman treats the man like her alpha, he will be her alpha.”
Re: “Too much attraction would be that you dont give her reassurance when all the girls are checking you out, and you even drop her to interact with the other women. If she doesnt receive comfort, she’ll look for it somewhere else, and attempt to make you pay a price for it. So yeah, there’s such “too much attraction.”” You may be right; it never occurred to me since I can’t imagine all the girls checking me out. Ok, so maybe the key dynamic balance (I like the concept of a dynamic balance as opposed to a static balance) is… Read more »
Re: telling her. Since when it happens I will have I told her I was picking up a woman in front of her specifically to change her feelings, does that make the Dread even more effective or less effective than if I didn’t tell her what I was doing?
@ LucasBly – I’ve greatly enjoyed your interlocution on this topic and I had a thought that I wanted to share with you. Fyi, I’m just another bozo on the bus here, so I’m very eager to hear Rollo’s commentary, but I guess part of what I want to say is that I think Rollo already answered your question. In fact, I think you know the answer but for maybe you don’t want to face it. Perhaps, ultimately, you are struggling to kill your own Beta, at the core of all this? Internal game seems to me to be about… Read more »
jf12, “If the woman treats the man like her alpha, he will be her alpha.” Situationally, it’s a flip coin. Give power to a beta and you’ll see the “natural alpha behaviors” emerge, cockiness, self amusement, dominance, etc, and he’ll be more attractive. Some men will be confused and try to play the safer game they already know. The alpha though, shines not when things are good but in times of trouble, when nature tests you, and when a woman tests you. All the attraction the beta built when things where going good and he was a situational alpha, vanishes… Read more »
jf12,
For goodness sake, DO NOT tell her you were picking up other women to change her feelings. She will most likely highly resent it. She will most likely see it from a woman’s point of view, not as logic and she will think you are rubbing it in her face.
If she figures it out on her own, that’s fine. She will like that because she has figured out part of the mystery that is you. Women love to *figure* out their men.
So far they’ve all seemed to enjoy it even though they knew very well what I was doing.
Yeah, they enjoyed it because they were chosen. They won the competition. It’s not really the same thing.
Re: her resenting my being able to rub it in her face. That’s kind of the point, though.
jf12,
What’s your goal? Alpha to your wife or to prove a point? Resentment from a woman to her husband very often means a loss of respect.
Resentment always comes with a payback.
@Stingray, explain how a woman resenting that a beta is acting more alpha means her losing respect, keeping in mind that she had negative respect to begin with.
You assume that she is going to see that as alpha because you see it as alpha. She won’t, most especially if you are coming from a place of negative respect. As I said before, she will see it from a woman’s point of view. What that means is, she will perceive this as a womanly behavior coming from you. She will perceive it as effeminate and not masculine. Now, if you wanted to tell her in a number of years, when your alpha status is well established and you did it in a cocky funny way, that would probably… Read more »
“If the woman treats the man like her alpha, he will be her alpha.” I think this is the internal conflict married (or LTR) women have with the guy they pair with – women need a resolution of their hypergamy, so even when they know the guy they pair with is Beta (by default or otherwise) outwardly they construe him as Alpha. Only the most desperate or self-realistic women (usually Hyenas) will expressly admit their husband is a Beta, and usually only after he’s passed the point where she’s actively seeking means and methods to abandon or replace him. Until… Read more »
I still think that if I were a woman that I’d resent my husband flirting with women regardless, but I would resent it less if he told me he was doing it for my benefit.
You cannot make appeals to a woman’s reason and expect her genuine change because of the strength of your arguments:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/08/07/appeals-to-reason/
Neither can you explain the mechanics of Game or your overt motives with a woman and expect a genuine change. Demonstrate, never explicate:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/12/30/secret-of-the-red-pill/
Lets say 2 weeks from now she starts flirting with other men in front of you.
What’s going to be your mindset?
Just to add to your comment about women gaming themselves:
In these situations the woman often wants Alpha behaviour, and Roissy’s maxim about erring on the side of boldness can be of critical importance. Sitting back and being too relaxed could see you losing out on an easy lay.
“Nothing dries the vag quicker than beta behaviour”
You are still thinking like a man and not like a woman. We simply do not think that way (unless taught. You are not in a position to teach right now). Take a look at what Rollo wrote above at 12:30. It’s very relevant to what you are talking about and the word he chose is perfect as well. Coming from a place of negative respect, what you are talking about doing comes across as prissy. Let me see if I can explain this better. You have negative respect because you’ve had/have your wife up on a pedestal. You’ve placed… Read more »
Re: “Lets say she starts flirting” and some of the other recent comments. She’s never lacked for male attention, and therefore she never encourages it because it would be pointless, like trying to make air more airy. In total contrast, I’ve always previously lacked for female attention, and therefore I never encouraged it before because it would have been pointless. So much so, I figure she would be almost (but not quite) as surprised by seeing another woman’s attentions towards me as she would be surprised by seeing me encouraging it. But I’m too squeamish about her thinking I’m actually… Read more »
for the win
You’ve placed her above yourself. Trust me when I tell you that we hate that. Telling her that you are doing this for her, keeps her on that pedestal. Women would rather be objectified than idolized. This is an important red pill maxim. After I’ve had particularly good sex with Mrs. Tomassi, I tell her “she’s my pornstar”. On the surface that’s one degree away from telling her she’s my slut, but in our relationship’s context she takes it as a compliment with a smile. When that comes from an Alpha frame it’s a compliment, from a Beta frame it’s… Read more »
Right, but what if 2 weeks from now she starts encouraging it / letting other guys picking her up / approaching attractive men herself – as a payback for your recent changes, maybe disguised as “if you do it, so can I”.
What’s going to be your mindset?
Given that danger and comfort are opposite ends of a one-dimensional spectrum, what are some of the orthogonal lines in the geometrization of attraction? Donalgraeme’s LAMPS vectors might help, even though he left off danger and comfort.
“When that comes from an Alpha frame it’s a compliment, from a Beta frame it’s offensive.” Exactly. Hence it can’t be used to change out of a beta frame.
@Glenn – Thank you, sir, it’s nice to know someone is listening. I agree with your analysis, and have (intentionally and unintentionally) taken many of the steps you’ve prescribed. Once rings are exchanged, it naturally follows from Rollo’s analysis that every man, regardless of his previous Alpha status, will require a maturing and development of his frame, to survive the inevitable status change that occurs after marriage. Rollo excuses her contributions as a natural expression of her hypergamy. She’s not a bad person, necessarily, she’s just doing what women do – even after marriage. Essentially, a married man never knows… Read more »
Re: “What’s going to be your mindset?” She does a lot of visual designs. One of her main jobs prior to getting married was as a photo editor doing layouts. Anyway she happens to have a lot of male followers on Instagram etc. She shares with me some of potential concern, like a recently divorced billionaire that she knew when they were young who posts pictures of himself doing supposedly exciting things like squeezing the kumquats in a market in Marrakesh and then asks her advice like “Should I makes these kumquats more reddish-orange or should I leave them to… Read more »
“the very nature of marriage is Beta.” yes. No doubt.
” if and when I succeed in finally killing my Beta, is there still a place in my new red pill aware life, for that woman I happen to have married long ago?” This is the question. I have no answer, but I suspect not.
Are you focusing on other things besides using Dread? Diet, gym, frame, etc? I figure she would be almost (but not quite) as surprised by seeing another woman’s attentions towards me as she would be surprised by seeing me encouraging it. Surprised is not always a bad thing. It might be a pleasant surprise for her. And if you are doing the other things to improve yourself, you might find that you don’t have to encourage female attention. You might just get it. When it happens, all you have to do is not discourage it. You don’t have to be… Read more »
Yohami,
Thank you. 😉
Women would rather be objectified than idolized. Absolutely, as long as it’s from a higher value man than herself. Woman want to be claimed (again, by a high value man). My husband likes to call me, “Woman”. I love it. It implies that I’m his. It’s the same with Mrs. Tomassi. She’s been claimed. She won the competition (a competition, I might add, we want to keep winning). However, if you ask or even imply being claimed to a woman who is with a man she doesn’t see as higher value than herself, she will revile this claiming. I’ve talked… Read more »
I’m always hesitant to use my own marriage as any kind of template for other men to follow. My circumstances, my talents, my career, physique and status aren’t what any other man’s might be. If I’m Alpha in any degree it came from a learning process more than my natural leaning. As I stated in Recursive Game, it’s not an effort I make to be so anymore, it’s simply who I am now. Maintaining Frame should never be a game of Whack-A-Mole for a guy, at some point it has to become who he is and his wife or the… Read more »
The only way to be sure of not being a beta in a marriage is to not care about her divorcing you. In other words, come into marriage with your own wealth. Of course, the kids are another issue…but at least the divorce won’t financially devastate you as much as it could have.
Rollo, I know that the other components of smv impact a man’s value greatly, but do you think in most cases that a man should always marry a women less hot than he is. Maybe this is why nature has gifted men with being able to be attracted to such a wide range of women…because we have to always marry down for relational success. It seems like if your wife is hotter than you (only looks wise), than there are too many extra factors that you have to maintain in order to be attractive to her.
@David Interesting theory. I sort of covered this in Women’s Physical Standards. It’s interesting that men’s sexual preferences can vary based on his personal circumstances while women’s physical standards remain historically static.
http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/15/womens-physical-standards/
For the 1,000,000th time, don’t marry.
“Too much work, not enough sweets.” – Capt. K’nuckles
>I read what you wrote last week. And I disagree.
No; to disagree you need to actually present some kind of sensible counterargument. You haven’t. So you don’t actually even disagree. You merely deny: http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2014/02/dont-accept-neutering-of-yourself-or.html .
Comments are full of examples.
As someone who has been both alpha and beta (the latter for way too long in my marriage), the question about whether it’s all worth it or not is a good one. As much as I’m now a true believer in the power of game, it’s just fucking exhausting… Constant assessment and reassessment of one’s LTR circumstances. Constant strategizing. Painstaking analysis of all interactions with the wife, shit tests, etc. A game of chess that never ends and in which I feel like I’m in constant competition with the likes of a Kasparov. That said, I can attest to the… Read more »
I’ve never viewed my husband as “beta”, as much as I can discern what that is supposed to mean, anyway.
Perhaps it’s because I always felt as if I married up. My husband is and was always considered objectively, universally handsome and I was always something of a niche, looks wise.
Interesting thoughts Rollo. As usual, there are some points of disagreement, but you’re always entertaining to read. That counts for something.
@Elspeth, have you ever been attracted / aroused by another man in the time you’ve been married?
Have I found another man attractive? Of course I have. I tend to be more visual than most women in that regard, or so my female relatives and friends tell me.
But sexually aroused by another man? No Rollo, not that I can recall.
@Stingray, again thanks for a woman’s pov. Yes, I did some self-improvement and I noticed some other women starting to be interested, but I have not yet noticed my wife noticing other women noticing, in a couple of years. To assure myself other women’s interest was real I started doing some practice game, as I mentioned. Re: pleasant surprise. I imagine it would be unpleasant. As Rollo mentioned we’re all unique, but the universe of parameterizations is finite. Although some kind of alpha female among women, in person my wife is almost agoraphobic around all other men, very mousy, except… Read more »
@talprofs “A tragedy of my betatised weakness” “and I how I so willingly allowed myself to be duped.” Don’t beat yourself up. It happens to the best of men, even natural alphas. I don’t care how tough, intelligent, and alpha you are — it can happen to you. Evolution has caused men to bond deeply to a woman and if we’re not careful that bond can turn into a chain. “I am under no illusion that it will take me some time to recover — but I at least now see that recovery is possible; I would not acknowledge this… Read more »
“Here’s a tougher pill to swallow, she’ll never be as attracted to you as she is of the guy’s she sees as Alpha after you’re married too.” And yet, in general, she’s still not likely to act on her attraction. This ties in with comments about a wife flirting. Let’s be honest: if they wanted to, most women could streetwalk and make good pocket money even if they wouldn’t get rich. She could lay on the sidewalk and spread her legs and get some takers, especially if she were actively giving it away. So in general there is no point… Read more »
jf12,
Spreading legs to multiple random men in exchange of cash vs. spreading legs to one or two alphas in exchange of attention and high quality seed are opposite things.
Attraction – not money.
Women’s more common strategy is to get a beta with money, and cheat on him with the hottest alpha they can get.
@Rollo, I brought up your marriage not to snoop into your business, rather to illustrate (for myself more than anything) that it is at least POSSIBLE for a red pill convert to game his wife and remain a happy Alpha man. If you can do it, maybe I can do it too. Far be it from me to argue with your logic – I’m here, after all, not to dispute you but to learn. I had a man suggest to me once, that no frustrated husband should ever divorce his wife until he works through his own issues, become the… Read more »
Fun stuff from Jenny Erickson.
http://thestir.cafemom.com/entertainment/168684/matthew_mcconaugheys_wife_admits_hes
His wife says he’s not romantic because he’s in love with her and doesn’t grab her.
Or do so proactively:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/23/schedules-of-mating/
walawala o man you’re killing me, just waiting for the other shoe to drop.
“some guy bought them drinks and then said “I like you, come over to my place.””
Well then? Did she, or didn’t she?
It’s important, to amateurs like me.
Re: “Attraction – not money.” If she’s giving it away for free then she’ merely a cheaper-than-usual prostitute. It’s inescapable.
@Lucas, no offense taken. I rarely use my own marriage as an example for anything because it usually comes off as overly ideal to guys who’re really suffering (or suffered) in their own. I agree with Lone Planet that from a coldly pragmatic view men shouldn’t marry under the present social pressures and I questioned as much in As Good As It Gets: http://therationalmale.com/2013/08/29/as-good-as-it-gets/ Tradcons and Christo-redpills ran me up the flag pole for that one, but it’s hard to argue with the logic of it. I know that doesn’t help your situation, but I do know that you’re probably… Read more »
fwiw I believe Elspeth when she says’ she’s not been aroused by another, and I believe my wife would say the same. That’s what I meant about “And yet, in general, she’s still not likely to act on her attraction.” I think a woman becomes aroused by acting on her attraction by letting a man game her.
@ jf12 :
“.. squeezing the kumquats ..”
.. in a Gippo market?
I say! Bold fellow. They generally kick off like nobody’s business if you even look at them.
@Tam, I don’t know if they were kumquats per se, and actually, this series of really high-quality pictures was of his buff young bodyguard holding various fruits amongst a scruffy Moroccan crowd. I kept waiting for her to point out the to-me obvious gayness, but I didn’t want to be the first to explicitly mention it. My saying kumquats about him dismissively was a sort double-back-flipping-entendre; it’s a risqué sounding word as it is. Besides it’s not as if he’s a real billionaire worth 10 figures; 9 figures is alls he’s got, I’m sure. Also, I couldn’t have dissed him… Read more »
Although definitely a side-topic, I mentioned that my wife often points out attractive and/or slutty women to me, even though I’m careful to never pay them any mind. And I’ve see that public behavior in some other women too; whether it’s a loyalty test or what I don’t know but it seems common. But I’ve never tried to draw my wife’s attention to an attractive man, and it must not be common for other men in public either, or else I would have noticed.
I have no interest in reading those women. Their reality is not my reality. Your reality is not my reality. As far as I know, you didn’t commit to marriage at twenty and leave an unhealthy relationship at thirty even though you already knew that there was likely no future relationship for you. As far as I know, you didn’t live with an alcoholic for a decade nor care for and support him through cancer, then give him half your assets so you didn’t have to live with him anymore. Your experience of difficulty is all second hand and therefore… Read more »
@Kate
I wonder if you’d have the same opinion if it were my sister-in-law who’d hung herself and her husband was dating a swimsuit model at the time and married her six months after the funeral?
I didn’t mention this anywhere in the post, but if you want to go there I will.
Yes, absolutely, his wife of 20 years and as much personal sacrifice, was in fact poached and both she and her new husband, while perhaps not implicit in his death, we’re definitely complicit in it.
@Rollo, I think you’re not giving yourself enough credit. That you’re enjoying a happy marriage makes me want to read you more, not less. I get tired of listening to men complain about what they can’t (or don’t want to) fix; would rather hear from those enjoying success. I would respectfully submit the observation that you clearly put a lot of time and effort into mulling over exactly how a man might optimize his contribution to a healthy relationship, whatever that means to him. Perhaps that makes you less of an anomaly because you’re a red pill man with a… Read more »
@jf12
“Although definitely a side-topic . . .”
I notice the same thing with some of the women I date. Think it’s a shit test? Or is she demonstrating sexual attraction to you? Or is she being a competitive modern woman by trying to be one of the guys? Or is she trying to set up the shit test in which you agree the woman’s hot and we all know her response: “hotter than me?”
I think they’re used to having men do the old beta squirm and stammer routine. I look at it as an opportunity to DHV.
Yes, marriage shouldn’t have to be constant speadsheet maintenance of your wife’s moods, just like the rest of your relationships in life, whether public or personal. It used to be that their community would take on some of that load and help keep wives on the sensible side, in various ways. Now, however, your communities actively encourage your wives to make it harder on both of you. Look at the mass media messages. Marriage is a contract between a couple on one side and a community on the other, and your communities are blatantly violating their responsibilities to both, and… Read more »
Honestly, what kind of person do you take me for? Of course I’d have the same opinion. It would be a tragic death and it would be a sister on sister crime. It is worth reminding oneself every day about the importance of looking out for each other. That means no messing with another person’s spouse- regardless of gender- no matter how special and unique the “love” seems. All it is is an indication that something is wrong with the primary relationship.
Sounds like today’s post is making you think twice about sharing your toothbrush cup with a guy you’ll eventually turn into a Beta.
@Bachelorocles re: “Or is she demonstrating sexual attraction to you? Or is she being a competitive modern woman by trying to be one of the guys?” I don’t think so; since it would be so easy for her to demonstrate actual attraction by acting attracted i.e. willing to do what I want. Plus, it’s sort of the same thing women do to each other to make themselves jealous of another woman “Look at her shoes! They’re sooo cute!” In other words, I feel like I’m mostly being given the unwelcome opportunity to act like a girl. I don’t really squirm… Read more »
Apols. for the branch line and all that, but; smug lass in the header pic.; I have still no traction on how you lot rate your “better halves” lol. Now to me she’s an average-to-middling shop-assistant type, more at home on the ironing board or the checkout, than the higher reaches of SWPL-dom. A plank. Maybe a 5-6 (if she cares to wash)? I’d absolutely love an observer’s field guide, I really am mystified by some of the classifications proffered. I suppose it’s different where you are, in that she gets Becky-points ( ©Obsidian) for free. Here, she’s just a… Read more »
And looky here what Insty just linked to: http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=4923 . Money quote: “So far as I can tell there was no marriage penalty in these experiments ? certainly nothing like we have today ? and little or no penalty for earning a higher income. With the passage of time all these incentives have become increasingly more perverse. For example, ove=-r the past 50 years we have added one marriage penalty after another to welfare benefits. There is a very strong marriage penalty in ObamaCare, for example. And even Paul Krugman concedes that the marginal tax rate faced by low-income families… Read more »
@Tam
No, they just laughed and drank the wines he bought them. I know this because in the way she told this story it was as though she was puzzled at why he would act this way and laughing that he did it.
Re: pic analysis. This is post-coital bliss in their secondary bedroom on a nice spring morn. Either they left the original wet spot in the other bedroom, or she’s getting away from it presently. The sheets were intended by him to be a gift to a previous girlfriend, but she didn’t like them and they weren’t used much; naturally he hasn’t told this one that story. The eclectic décor is as much a function of his inertia as it is her artistic shortcomings, which can also be read in her hair. Something about the eyes and brows tells me she… Read more »
Oops forgot to rate. Absolute 6.8, maybe 7.1 in America due to fitness level.
I barely read your post, Rollo. Something about a sandwich. But if you keep that projector running, you can toast your own at home!
Kate, “But understand that why it happened was a man’s fault moreso than a woman’s. He took what was not his to take. ” How is it the responsibility of the the unattached millionaire to honor a marriage he isn’t involved in? He owes no duty to protect the marriage, save any morality he personally holds. So no, it isn’t “a man’s fault moreso than a woman’s”. In fact, it is ALL HER FAULT. She wasn’t taken, SHE GAVE HERSELF TO HIM. The fact of the matter is she broke her marriage vows to trade up. Game is amoral, but… Read more »