Recently Marellus from Just Four Guys brought this to my attention:
Did you see how the womyn tore apart a commenter, by the name of Redlum, on Jezebel ?
Just because he said this :
Why does feminism have to antagonize and mock men all the time? Men are expected to have no vulnerabilities, this is an oppressive gender role. When men’s vulnerabilities are exposed, such as feeling emasculated or being insecure about women making them “obsolete”, that is a human emotion and gloating over it and mocking it is not only terrible, but also one of the big things giving feminism a bad name.
The top reply was this :
If being in a relationship with a woman who makes more money than you and/or has a higher position than you makes you feel that you are becoming obsolete, maybe you should be mocked for being silly, immature, and sexist. So now, on top of everything else that women have to deal with, we have to comfort men for freaking out whenever a woman surpasses them at something? I’m sorry – if you are in a group that has been privileged over/oppressive of other groups, you don’t get an apology and a reassuring hug every time we get a millimeter closer to some semblance of fairness and equality. Men need to suck it up and deal with life on more equitable terms like adults, without those who do just that expecting a medal for it.
Write a post on what this guy did wrong, if possible.
Redlum’s mistake was twofold. His first error was to ever overtly look for sympathy from a woman (women). We already know women lack the capacity for empathizing with the male experience, but sympathy is another side of the equation. One grave error most blue pill plug-ins make in this respect is a presumption that women owe them sympathy or that women are predisposed to sympathizing with them.
This is usually due to having been conditioned by the feminine for so long to believe that “Open Communication®”, sharing his feelings and being vulnerable will make him the ideal man. This is an unfortunate outcome of the ‘get in touch with your feminine side’ curse of Jung: in a similar respect to the myth of Relational Equity where a man expects his sacrifices and investment in a relationship will be a buffer against women’s Hypergamy, the expectation is that women will appreciate his openness and vulnerabilities. He believes the feminine identity lie that “vulnerability is strength.”
It’s a very seductive fallacy for a dyed-in-the-wool plug-in to make. I’ve read Redlum’s comments before and he doesn’t impress me as a chump, so I believe his comment on Jezebel was really more of a symbolic appeal to feminine reason. What he illustrates here is a common misgiving most Beta blue pill men subscribe to – that they will be perceived as unique, “not like other guys” in his embracing feminine vulnerability. And as you can see from the top Jezebel reply he was met with the same hostility women have for “vulnerable” men.
Hypergamy psychologically predisposes women to hold either contempt or pity for male vulnerability on a limbic level. Even in the most ’emotionally evolved’ women, by order of degree, Hypergamy is always testing for male fitness in order to assess whom she will pair with either in short term breeding availability or long term provisioning availability. When a man overtly expresses an openness to vulnerability, on a subconscious level it telegraphs his insecurity to her Hypergamous nature. Thus, she filters him out, or if she’s paired with him prior to this expression she initiates the mental protocol to leave him for a better match.
The contempt expressed by the Jezebel authoress is a good example of this.
So now, on top of everything else that women have to deal with, we have to comfort men for freaking out whenever a woman surpasses them at something?
You’re a man, suck it up, you shouldn’t be vulnerable by virtue of your maleness. It’s a conflicting message in light of the touchy-feely feminine conditioning men endure in their upbringing, but it is an honest reaction, and one that men need to understand when sorting out the reality of women and their need to unplug.
I’m not gonna write you a love song, cause you asked for one,..
The second (symbolic?) mistake Redlum makes is making an appeal for sympathy. In Empathy I outlined women’s gut-level, evolutionarily selected-for, lack of empathizing with the male experience. I defined the difference between empathy and sympathy, and while women might lack the means for that empathy, they have a very strong sense of sympathy. However that sympathy comes with conditions.
Women involved with high SMV Alpha Men can be some of the most genuinely, organically sympathetic women you’ll ever encounter. Granted, that sympathy may facilitate her own Hypergamous interests, but more so because that Alpha never petitions her for her sympathy.
Women give their sympathies of their own accord, never as the result of a man petitioning it from her. A woman must be inspired to sympathy for a man, asking for it is negotiating for her desire to be sympathetic.
A man who is intentionally vulnerable smacks of a guy who is so in an effort to qualify for her intimacy. It’s similar to the dynamic found in Play Nice, that niceness, that vulnerability that’s supposed to be strength, is perceived as a ruse to better identify with the feminine and thus be more acceptable to it. If feminine Hypergamy is fine tuned for anything it’s genuineness. That’s not to say women wont turn it to their social and biological advantages, but Hypergamy is always testing for certainty and authenticity. I’ve stated before that there is nothing more satisfying for a woman than to believe she’s figured a guy out using her mythical feminine intuition, this is a direct satisfaction of Hypergamy’s need for certainty, but I should also add that there is nothing more mortifying, rage inducing and produces more bitter tears than a woman who’s had her Hypergamy fooled by an imposter. Not only does this deception involve a loss of investment and resources to her, but it’s also an insult to her ego that her capacity to filter for authenticity isn’t as effective as she believes her ‘intuition’ actually is.
Suck It Up
The bigger picture in this Jezebel exchange is really about one of the most basic and useful social conventions ever devised by the Feminine Imperative – The Male Catch 22:
Man Up or Shut Up – The Male Catch 22
One of the primary way’s Honor is used against men is in the feminized perpetuation of traditionally masculine expectations when it’s convenient, while simultaneously expecting egalitarian gender parity when it’s convenient.
For the past 60 years feminization has built in the perfect Catch 22 social convention for anything masculine; The expectation to assume the responsibilities of being a man (Man Up) while at the same time denigrating asserting masculinity as a positive (Shut Up). What ever aspect of maleness that serves the feminine purpose is a man’s masculine responsibility, yet any aspect that disagrees with feminine primacy is labeled Patriarchy and Misogyny.
Essentially, this convention keeps beta males in a perpetual state of chasing their own tails. Over the course of a lifetime they’re conditioned to believe that they’re cursed with masculinity (Patriarchy) yet are still responsible to ‘Man Up’ when it suits a feminine imperative. So it’s therefore unsurprising to see that half the men in western society believe women dominate the world (male powerlessness) while at the same time women complain of a lingering Patriarchy (female powerlessness) or at least sentiments of it. This is the Catch 22 writ large. The guy who does in fact Man Up is a chauvinist, misogynist, patriarch, but he still needs to man up when it’s convenient to meet the needs of a female imperative.
This dualistic, conveniently conflicting, social convention is what defines a condition of ‘equality’ for today’s New Woman:
Men need to suck it up and deal with life on more equitable terms like adults, without those who do just that expecting a medal for it.
In other words suck it up when convenient and sack up when necessary. In a sense she’s not wrong– an intrinsic part of the male experience is not to complain about adversity, not to complain about pain and not to complain about suffering – in other words, Man Up, be strong and don’t let on to any vulnerability. If that sounds contradictory to a lifetime of feminine sensitivity training for men it should, but only because it’s half of the usefulness of the Male Catch 22. Where our Jezebeler drops the ball is the other half of the con – Man up and be useful, to women, to the Feminine Imperative. The problem is that equality only applies to what benefits the feminine, anything else that constitutes a man, constitutes masculinity, is a liability.
If being in a relationship with a woman who makes more money than you and/or has a higher position than you makes you feel that you are becoming obsolete, maybe you should be mocked for being silly, immature, and sexist.
There is also the option that Men may simply opt out of involving themselves in a relationship with said woman. In this case the Male Catch 22 is used to shame him for his insecurities not only by women for not participating in their potential provisioning, but also by a chorus of plugged in men ready to mock him for his lack of manhood (also in order to convince the feminine of their unique dedication to the imperative and hopefully get laid as a result of it). It’s at this point he’s derided for his ‘fragile ego’ and his ‘being threatened by strong independent women®.”
By virtue of his maleness, he literally cannot win, and any expression of this condition, even the questioning of this situation is then perceived as his complaining about it – and overt confession of vulnerability. What I’m describing here is the core issue blue pill, plugged in men have with Game and the red pill – just asking a question or making a critical observation about the feminine with regard to the male condition is always conflated with men complaining – something men aren’t allowed to do. It comes off as “poor men”, just as our Jezebeler recounts, but it distracts and discourages real discourse about those conditions.
That is how effective the Male Catch 22 is, it kills all critical inquiry before the questions can even be asked.
I don’t debate with feminists any more. I also find that they don’t bother me in the slightest in my daily routines and days… if I don’t actively (like now) seek out another case of feminism shooting itself in the foot. With a shotgun. Double-barrelled. That is on fire. And lightning. (i.e does something incredibly counter-productive for their alleged fight towards ‘equality’) then I don’t actually feel bothered. I pay the same for my cigarettes, my bus rides, and my junk food as any woman does. I don’t get to jump in line, or get cut in line, when applying… Read more »
@Glenn: There is just too great a divide between men and women’s communication styles when they aren’t willing to listen openly to one another. You don’t believe that I hear you, so I’ll just say, congratulations on all your success and good luck at your interview. @Eris: Stories might be out there, but does any of it personally touch you? I read here that only men can truly empathize and love. Do you empathize with any of the woman’s plight? Do you believe they suffer too? (These are rhetorical questions I don’t expect an answer to, nor will I read.)… Read more »
@kate – No, you don’t get me, you can’t get me – you have no idea what it’s like and you aren’t used to listening to men in a way that actually dignifies our lived experiences. However, I’ve had to listen to women’s experiences and emotions being shoved down my throat for my whole fucking life. I’m exquisitely tuned in to every aspect of femininity as it’s worshipped in our culture. You don’t get it – your views aren’t welcome to me. I’m not here to understand women, I’m here to detach from them, yes? A lifetime of female imperative… Read more »
@ Klaus – You start off talking about how feminism does absurd things and then claim it doesn’t actually harm you and that really it’s only an internet phenomena. Do yourself a favor and do some research on the Duluth Model of Domestic Violence and see how it privileges women under the law. Look at how “Rape Culture Theory” drives Title IX implementation and has literally stripped men attending university in the U.S. of due process rights when accused of sexual assault. Consider also in the west how many govt depts have special set asides and divisions for women’s interests… Read more »
“It is easy in the world to live after the world’s opinion; it is easy in solitude to live after our own; but the great man is he who in the midst of the crowd keeps with perfect sweetness the independence of solitude.” – Emerson
I think that like so many other aspects of the Feminine Imperative, Suck It Up is a manifestation of the apex fallacy which results from hypergamy. No True Man (i.e. no apex) snivels about women treating him poorly, because we all know that women treat A True Man very well indeed. Elsewhere, a man is arguing with me the man’s pov version of this fallacy which I have caricatured as No True Coolguy. The women’s pov version is simply No True Man.
And I think that with the introduction of No True Man, I have arrived. I’ve been immersed in the manosphere for only a month, believe it or not, and my redpill redhotness is so far from being quenched that the resulting heating of the environs is self tempering.
@Glenn You wrote: “Her treatment of me became abusive and to the point where her sister confronted her about how she constantly treated me with scorn and derision in public… I kept trying to reason with her and negotiate and got sucked into all her emotional garbage… 9 relationships that lasted exactly 4-5 months where my tolerance would be exceeded and I would exit. With game I could have managed all this much more productively ” About every 2-3 years from 1988 to 2010, I was in and out of Family Court settling divorce and custody issues from 3 different… Read more »
Glenn has unplugged from the Matrix, but he still has the holes and plugs from the time he spent in it.
Yeah, Rollo, watching someone work all that out of his system in real time is a sight to behold. Glenn not only still has the holes and plugs, he is still flailing in the water pool waiting to be flushed out. He’s like a baby, gasping in air and pushing it out, getting his bearings.
This is a good thing.
This is a good thing.
Yes.
@ Rollo & Deti – Fantastic way to describe it – even if the ego did twinge a bit at the “baby” characterization at first glance. But I thought about it and it’s true. Yet each day brings more clarity and power and confidence and calmness. Exercising ‘positive masculinity’ is not so hard for me in some ways as it’s always been there in me, but pushed down and shamed and repressed. I’ve been thinking a lot about aggression. I was a guy who had problems being over-aggressive at times in my life and I realize that this was in… Read more »
@Mike: “It’s the best chance you got to keep your woman attracted to you, and it’s the best chance you got to keep your family.”
Yeah, I agree with that. That is what I meant about the smart part.
@Kate – Thanks for a being an object lesson in the female imperative non-stop.
@Glenn Does that make any sense to men further down this path than I am? Absolutely. It has always fascinated me how much I had changed from when I was a young kid, too young to understand anything about gender relations and having a masculine role model in my father (unfortunately it didn’t last long, whole other story). I remember my first sexual experience with a neighborhood girl. I was curious just like any other boy and I never asked permission or felt self-conscious about wanting to do sexual things to girls. I simply initiated contact and if it was… Read more »
@Glenn: Don’t expect other women to be as tolerant of you as I have been. And, keep in mind, the men you are admiring (Rollo and Deti) are married men who have never been divorced. I don’t say that necessarily to discredit them, but to caution you about knowing from whom you are taking advice. To me, there are ethical concerns regarding unplugging people without having some path for them to follow. I don’t see either of them offering you a hit from their oxygen tank at the moment. Instead, they are observing you as a science experiment. Where is… Read more »
@Glenn: Don’t expect other women to be as tolerant of you as I have been. And, keep in mind, the men you are admiring (Rollo and Deti) are married men who have never been divorced. I don’t say that necessarily to discredit them, but to caution you about knowing from whom you are taking advice. To me, there are ethical concerns regarding unplugging people without having some path for them to follow. I don’t see either of them offering you a hit from their oxygen tank at the moment. Instead, they are observing you as a science experiment. Where is… Read more »
Here’s your ‘hit of oxygen’ Glenn: http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/21/kill-the-beta-2/ If I could construct some step-by-step program, a universal template that men could all follow in order to kill their inner Beta, I’d be rich beyond my wildest dreams. Just as I said with about the Alpha Buddha, if I could find a way to bottle the essence of Alpha I’d be set for life. The real truth is that there is no simple answer to this, because each man’s conditions are unique to him. To be sure there are common roots to their problems, and common mindsets that form as results of… Read more »
Also keep in mind that (Geisha) Kate is a divorced mother who is in a virtual. long distance relationship and engaged to re-marry a 58 y.o. man who was previously one of the preeminent voices in the manosphere whom she agreed to marry before meeting him in person.
Caveat emptor indeed.
I have a PhD in vulnerability. Including a specialization in getting crushed for expressing it. That’s basically my entire life story. If I had a dollar for every time I told someone I was suicidal and they either ignored me, criticized me, or told me to do the world a favor and follow through with it, I’d have my own island by now. Expecting women to be these all-nurturing, sympathizing goddesses of emotional support and care like they’re portrayed in the movies. One of the hardest lessons I’ve had to learn was when I was standing in a storage room… Read more »
Hey Glenn,
Newborn stallion with wobbly legs?
Long time driver of automatic Buick Capri station wagon trying to get used to clutch engagement of a vintage 308?
@ Kate – Okay, I’ll be a good boy now and straighten myself out. Please, tell me how to see the world and how to live my life and how to interpret Rollo and what to think and feel and what I should be working on. If I’m a really good boy, will you give me some candy? Giggling, as you just become more and more of a demonstration of arrogant female imperative with each comment. It’s such a delight to see so clearly what a woman is up to. The shaming, the lecturing , the pose of superiority, the… Read more »
@Glenn: Don’t expect other women to be as tolerant of you as I have been.
Would Rollo get a warm feeling if Glenn would say “I’d expect you to say something like that?”
Crap. Hoping to post that before you came back.
@ Morpheus – Brilliant, just brilliant. Thanks. I feel so much more solidarity with men after all this and intentionally go out of my way to support and connect with and listen to men in a way I hadn’t before. I had internalized the shame and denigration to such a large degree that I saw other men as schmucks too. Wow, this is like waking up from a long, bad night’s sleep. @ Water Cannon Boy – Nice one. Kate is giving me driving lessons free of charge and I’m a fast study so no worries, I’ll be up to… Read more »
@ Water Cannon Boy – Have you clicked on Kate’s pic? 35 she says? Wow, those have been some hard years I guess. SMV plummeting, desperation so high she’s here on a men’s site taking her frustration and terror out on us. She couldn’t have picked a worse target, lol, I mean, I think she really doesn’t get what we just don’t give a shit what she says. She’s entertainment, like a court jester or something and doesn’t even know it. Please, Kate, try harder to straighten me out, I’m so confused – HELP ME!!
Glenn,
There is some interesting history here regarding Kate, and I have no ill will here. I’m still not sure if the “event” was an epic trolling/catfishing event or was for real, and what exactly happened. Maybe Rollo knows more? Google Mark Minter if you are interested.
And in other news… http://ideas.time.com/2014/01/13/masculinity-is-more-than-a-mask/ Again, Here is a different interpretation. The reason you are seeing Dr. Helen on Fox News, WSJ is publishing a feminist’s defense of masculinity, and “red pill women” are sprouting up like weeds is that they are genuinely scared. They are beginning to sense that these males are not playing along, are not turning a blind eye, are not “pussy whipped” (or whatever temporal emotion). They are afraid the males are as weak, ignorant, and fundamentally incapable as they appear. Chateau’s description: Excellent article by Christina Hoff Sommers Further misinterpretation. The money shot… The energy,… Read more »
@Morpheus – Even funnier after reading the stuff on Minter. In any event, if she doesn’t want to hear back from me she should stop talking to me. As I’ve made abundantly clear I’m not here to interact with women. Period. Although she is giving me free lessons so for that I’m quite grateful.
@Softek – Wow, thanks for sharing so bravely – I’m very happy you are finding some relief from your suffering. We’ve been on different paths but I can relate so much to the lack of empathy and sympathy for male suffering. I also can relate to the weight being lifted from me and the importance of self love, and the relief that this truth gives me. I really hope you continue on this path and continue to move from strength to strength. I have a youtube channel, ScribblerG1 where I’ve done a series of videos on my journey called “Applied… Read more »
Chateau’s description: Excellent article by Christina Hoff Sommers Further misinterpretation. The money shot… The energy, competitiveness and corporal daring of normal males are responsible for much good in the world. ****No one denies that boys’ aggressive and risk-taking tendencies must be socialized and channeled toward constructive ends.**** And who shall determine what is “good” and “constructive?” Who shall profit from it No one denies? There is a certain type of woman who pays lip service to “fairness” for boys and “speaks out againt misandry” but when you get under the hood you realize it is just superficial. There is an… Read more »
Ehh, screwed up the formatting,
@ Morpheus – Again, just spot on. Even Christina Hoff Sommers can’t help herself – and who can blame her? What woman in her right mind would want to give up a world in which her imperatives are assumed to be so important?
@ Softek Expecting women to be these all-nurturing, sympathizing goddesses of emotional support and care like they’re portrayed in the movies. A reason for depression (not the only) occurs when expectations do not jive with reality. “I used to live in a room full of mirrors All I could see was me Well I take my spirit and I crash my mirror Now the whole world is here for me to see” As the “red pill” disillusions some with regards to women, further expectations may become more in sync with reality if the person continues to look at the “world.”… Read more »
@ Morpheus – I can’t help it, i got sucked into the Minter/Kate thing and then hopped to a blog called eradica where Kate wrote the article about white women and black men, lol. I get her now. She thinks she’s smart, but she’s not. She’s actually a teacher, yikes. She’s twigged to “game” but not the larger gynocentric/femcentric aspects like female imperative. She thinks I’m trying to figure out how to get laid, and I guess that’s understandable as many frustrated Betas who could never get laid end up here. My situation was different. My prom queen/homecoming queen wife… Read more »
@ Rollo That’s an element of internalized Game that the guys doing seminars would rather not address because your degree of success, in truth how you even measure success, is entirely dependent upon you. Hooking up with girls you’d never had access to before may sell pick up DVDs; changing the inner workings of your personality is a much tougher order. If you ever look through the ‘self-help’ psychology section of a book store and wonder why there are so many books published in the topic, it’s exactly due to this dynamic – effecting a fundamental change in one’s life… Read more »
@ Rollo – Thanks for that and I’d already read “Kill the Beta” it’s great. I think however that my post that I did while you were doing this will make clear that I’m in a somewhat different place. I know it’s a lot to ask but I’m wondering what you make of the little history I gave. I was always pulling women before my illness – I think of myself as an unconscious Alpha. Not aware of game but after my marriage ended 21 years ago, I’ve not ever put up with a woman’s shit in a relationship again… Read more »
And who shall determine what is “good” and “constructive?” Who shall profit from it Who indeed. If you asked Aunt-‘build a better beta’-Giggles who’s good do you think she’d say men should serve? http://therationalmale.com/2011/12/05/build-a-better-beta/ However, the utility of exploiting Game in theory (not in practice) to better serve that female centrism hasn’t gone unnoticed. This has given rise to what might be called “sanitized Game” – take the primary elements of Game to build a better Beta. With such an overwhelming social undercurrent for men to ‘Man-Up’ today it’s really simple pragmatism to reinterpret Game to serve the expectations and… Read more »
It’s not virtual anymore. I been here with her a couple of months now. And she agreed to the whole thing because I got skillz. Actually it sort of played like this. I said “Where the fuck are we going with this? You live there, I live here. So go the fuck away. Odds are you are a hypergamistic bitch, prone to polyandrous tendencies. You can’t commit, at least the odds say you can’t commit. And I already was a dumb ass that threw my life in the shitter moving to Medellin to be some woman. And I am a… Read more »
@ Rollo I have read this site since close to its beginning. It has not been surprising at all. The topics have never changed… How women use the feminine imperative. Out of curiousity, what growth do you see in your readers? What do you view as the goal of your site? Again, The readers and commenters are certainly not “alpha” males, certainly no longer “beta” males, and far too common to be “sigma” males. What do you sites like RationalMale and Chateau Heartiste actually breed. Is this the goal? “these males are learning “placing value on his own personal fulfilment… Read more »
This is relevant here… What we see here are people in one phase and stage. There is a seemingly endless influx of them. But what we don’t see is what happens when people stop reading and posting or commenting. What isn’t apparent is that people do move out of this phase. But they surely do, and new members of the stasis arrive to replace them. So, as a reader of all of these comments, it is best to keep in mind that most of these people will not feel like this forever. They will flow out on paths they never… Read more »
But you people need to sort of understand where she is coming from. Glenn. when I had been in Red Pill for five weeks, I wrote these screaming ass comments on Rational Male that went viral. I was mad as a motherfucker. I had just as much shit thrown my way for longer than you have. And I also had just sort of gotten run over by Colombian Hypergamy which is a different breed of cat. So I saw it in two different cultures. And it was really interesting how when you can scrape away the cultural shit between American… Read more »
@DifferentT Re: “certainly no longer “beta” males” Again I stilldo not know, at all, what you think you are communicating with that. What “certainty”? What “no longer”?
The infection of the No True Man fallacy will continue until morale improves.
I had a dream once, where I got in touch with my feminine side. I played with my boobs all night.
The Navy Corpsman
Rollo, great pointing. Just have to remember to look beyond the finger….
“Where did he go wrong?”
When he posted in a shithole like Jezebel without the express intention of insulting them.
And the evidence speaks…
But if you keep reading and employ the teachings then you will find you will be happy merely by not being unhappy.
It’s pretty obvious to me that she is stepping back in order for me to lead.
She does it, reads it, studies, internalizes it because intuitively she knows it is correct.
So Kate sort of thinks there just might be a middle way.
“I never figured you would get so bent out of shape over the idea of it all”
Well, we now know he was in a great deal of pain at the time due to his leg. I guess we were adding insult to injury.
“How can fucking Futrelle read all he reads in order to snark about it and not have it affect him?” How can someone “read everything” red pill literature has to offer and write a twenty paragraph NAWALT deflection. Do whatever makes you happy, but be honest about it. So back to Kate… But she sort of believes… She’s sort of found… Kate sort of thinks… She sees her relationship… She has a right to … She ain’t necessarily… So her questions is this… She makes an attempt… She says… She gets up… She reads… She does it… She had not… Read more »
Here is a case study of a male using a variant of “self-help”/nihilsim/neo mysticism to perform “a lot of work doing your own self-analysis and then creating a strategy to remake yourself.”
http://xsplat.wordpress.com/2013/05/01/integrity-game-vs-feeding-them-the-dream/#comment-7945
He creates a thin veneer of value, and with just a few pokes (and a little flattery) reveals exactly what he has remade himself into.
@Eris
Another reaffirmation about precisely what’s discussed here. I mean a clear text-book example. You know a nerve was touched and/or a nail was hit squarely on the head to awake Minter from his slumber to post such rationalizations. A male/female tag-team event!!!
I don’t know what is more pathetic, Kate’s commentary or Mark Minter telling me a thing about how to live life. @Mark Minter – Let’s be clear. You are a scumbag. Every ounce of your existence screams it. I don’t listen to guys like you in the manosphere and have no interest in your input or sage advice, lol. Your ex and your actions have made clear that you are no example of a man of any sort. Abandoning your kids. Pothead. Financial disaster. Web loudmouth, liar and brash poser. I mean, what makes you think I’d listen to a… Read more »
@ Glenn Opening up to people is a free pass for them to talk down to you, so don’t be surprised.
@ Rollo – Internal game. I’ve been reading this commentary and finally understand why it comes off as weird to me. Due to my own philosophical and intellectual journey I’m already well aware that all “change” comes from the inside. I also was a natural but incompetent Alpha in that I had no idea how to maintain my frame and internalized the female imperative in some awful ways. I’m not here to figure out how to pick up women but rather how to embrace positive masculinity – which is already present in me, even though I’ve shamed and suppressed it.… Read more »
@DifT, I read through the link you provided and you don’t look as good in it as you appear to think you do. The other participant has some very good points. I could be biased though, because your writing style, intentionally or not, oozes condescension. But you do have a strong facility for critical thinking, and for aikidoing the other side of a debate against itself. You seem to be saying that many here in the sphere are using “self-help tricks”, a selective dose of “neomysticism” (is mysticism timestamped?), and a little real knowledge to transform themselves into nihilists/narcissists/hedonists, thus… Read more »
I think, this issue comes about because modern man has been taught to cooperate with women. First of all, he has been taught to cooperate indiscriminately with all kinds of people, men or women – No one is to be excluded. And ‘more recently’, because of the increase of women in the workforce and a female’s change of social status into an “equal”, as in being the same, while in reality, biologically, a woman is not meant to be cooperated with. She’s not even happy about it, more so, she’s frustrated about a lack of personal dominance. In short –… Read more »
D-Man asks “what … do you think these guys should be doing instead?” The search for an alternative to Game has already been a major theme already in 2014 in the monogamous manosphere. I’ve posted this elsewhere but not here I think. All efforts to date can be summarized in the following reverse underpants gnomes’ Alternative to Game: 1. Having taken the redpill, attempt to incorporate good parts of Game while trying not to be become more dark triadish, and don’t call it Game. 2. ??? 3. Collect panties. I still have no idea what DifT means “no longer “beta”… Read more »
@DifferentT Re: “certainly no longer “beta” males” Again I stilldo not know, at all, what you think you are communicating with that. What “certainty”? What “no longer”?
Want him/her to actually say something instead of just asking questions?
Too Frazier Crane-ish.
@Rollo You wrote: “They seek a man to be proud of, one who’s association reflects a statement of their own quality, yet one they still have implicit control over.” Keep up the good work, like a football coach or Drill Sgt., keep driving this message home. This helps me make sense of a 30 year struggle to be in control: I was too unskilled to maintain control, and too proud to submit to a woman. It must be an instinctual part of a woman’s nature to figure out, over time, how to control their husband. No matter how strong, successful,… Read more »
Modern psychology is nothing more than a systematically enforced judgement. That it screams “thou shalt not judge” in today’s society is almost a precondition for judgement. Just ask their lackeys, the feminists and egalitarians. Modern psychology’s chief judgement: Human is bad. Life is bad. Its ideal: an emotionless, “perfectly” rationale robot. But these psychologists are no programmers, they do not even understand that rationality itself is only a value judgement. This comment here highlights your ignorance of psychology as a science. Most people’s impression of psychology comes from the touchy-feely humanist schools of psychology, founded in emotional states and lie-on-the-couch… Read more »
@ Rollo – “I’m in the business of unplugging chumps from the Matrix.” Mission accomplished. I don’t need you to give me a new set of imperatives. Why you are so great is that you don’t set yourself up as a guru or have a bunch of things you want to sell us. You’ve made your motivations clear. The suicide of your brother in law motivated you to start this inquiry. Your education in psychology informs it. You want to help men in the most meaningful way you know how to do. For me, it’s an amazing way to round… Read more »
Partly,..
http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/26/whats-your-problem/
@Mike, I’m no Rollo (and I take the opportunity to thank him for unplugging me too. Rational Male was my guilty alternative to reading Dalrock last year, and it took me figuring out what he meant by the society-engulfing Feminist Imperative matrix to unplug). But I think I know enough to confidently state that her respect for you is negatively correlated with the sacrifices you make for her. Negatively. Her respect for you is instead reflected in the sacrifices she makes for you. To the extent that her appreciation of your services motivates her to service you, then her appreciation… Read more »
And one last point on this thread and I’m done. Many commenters here “draft” on Rollo’s authority/credibility/standing that he’s earned via the incredible work he’s done for years. His writing earned him that and he’s willing to be taken on by all comers to search for a better truth than he’s offering. Those of you like Different T and Kate and now this Minter loser, please understand – you don’t have anywhere near his standing to be taken seriously. You argue with him as though you are to be taken seriously, as though your commentary meets the quality of his… Read more »
False assumptions lead to petty conclusions.
Rollo: I’ve notified Gynocentrism dot com that they are falsely attributing one of Mark’s essays to you.
Drafting. LOL
It seems that most of the Dads-That-People-Never-Had of the community have this strong believe that things changed dramatically about 50 years ago due to some social – economic disposition which lead to the more feministic oriented society. Considering ideas of Freud related to sex, does it mean that 100 years ago people were happier (more sexually satisfied) because, apparently, active “beta propaganda” did not exist back then and thus Beta to Alpha ratio would be on the brighter side? What appears to me is that Alpha to Beta relation will more or less fall under Gaussian distribution where one end… Read more »
“And, keep in mind, the men you are admiring (Rollo and Deti) are married men who have never been divorced. I don’t say that necessarily to discredit them, but to caution you about knowing from whom you are taking advice. “ I’ve never been divorced, but my wife chose to walk us right up to the edge of that abyss. I’m not divorced because by God’s grace and my learning a bit of masculinity/Game, I was able to walk us back from that abyss. SHE didn’t walk us back, I did. Glenn can do a lot worse than to learn… Read more »
And you deserve a lot of credit for that, deti. But, you still don’t know what its like to be divorced.
I don’t know which comments you’re referring to, nor will I be wondering back through this exorcism of toxicity to find them.
@ D-ManS So I’ll ask you, how is that any worse than remaining the suckers, doormats, mules and punching bags of society? These are the same weak people who are just doing their best to get a new role in the same shitty play. Additionally, they come to subtly defend the same shitty play because they know themselves incapable of performing roles in a different script. Being able to perform a different function or role would involve developing new capacities. It’s not going to come from learning about “hypergamy.” This site, as stated, is triage clinic. The posts regarding the… Read more »
And that’s another thing Kate and Different T have in common. Must be a woman-thing, eh? Apart from the semi-learned scorning of the ignorant and learned alike, a-propos-of-precisely-nothing, and the interminable cajoling to just Man the Fuck Up, and do as they say .. or else .. .. they neither of them can spell worth a fuck. Constantly tripped up by homophones and heteronyms, the sort of infelicities that spellcheckers and the like are not yet tweaked to pick up. Not normally a thing I would moan about (I’m a big fan of da GBFM, for starters, I genuinely don’t… Read more »
@ Rollo
This comment here highlights your ignorance of psychology as a science.
Which of your posts utilize this “scientific” psychology?
for aikidoing the other side of a debate against itself.
Where is the evidence of this? Those contradictions and stupidities existed before anyone pointed them out.
@D-Man Since these have already been posted… ————— In a new approach to the same dead horse: *** Women often “fitness test” or “shit test” men. Men interested in mating with a woman need to learn how to recognize when she does this. When he ascertains that in fact she is attempting to fitness test him, there are several known responses that other men have employed with varying degrees of success, such as “agree and amplify.”*** Here is a differerent interpretation of this behavior. When the female’s drive for rebellion against her established role gains dominance, the relevant behavior is… Read more »
@ D-Man Already posted elsewhere…. ———————- Hypergamy: a woman’s natural preference for a male that is of higher status than other men and also higher status than herself. Based on what hierarchy? Many manosphere sites take for granted that it is based on (in a feminized society, the easily counterfeited and imitated behaviors indicating) social dominance. Consider that the definition used is vital to the integrity and predictive power of the model. This definition seems to consider female sexuality as taking place in a vacuum apart from other biological considerations, instead of as an interplay between many competing considerations. Specifically,… Read more »
@ Rollo
Your timing is truly impeccable…
Every psychological underpinning of any theory I’ve explored on this blog has always been from a rational, behaviorism perspective. More B.F. Skinner, less Maslow, more Martie Hasselton, less Carl Jung.
http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/ayn_rand.htm
Complete absence of LivingTree and increasingly obsessive blathering from Different T in this thread,..
noted without comment.
Empathy/sympathy
“Modern psychology is nothing more than a systematically enforced judgement. That it screams “thou shalt not judge” in today’s society is almost a precondition for judgement. Just ask their lackeys, the feminists and egalitarians. Modern psychology’s chief judgement: Human is bad. Life is bad. Its ideal: an emotionless, “perfectly” rationale robot. But these psychologists are no programmers, they do not even understand that rationality itself is only a value judgement.” Wrong. Rationality is a feature of the mind which evolved to give an advantage in dealing with the world by seeing patterns and understanding why and how things happen. Modern=the… Read more »
And for the record, Mark, I am more than content. Literally, no other man in the world could do what you have done. No one has the necessary knowledge of psychology, of parenting, of leadership. No one has the necessary heart, or integrity, or grit. Rollo will falsely call it oneitis, but who else could have reminded me when Mr. Millionaire wrote this summer, that, had I gone with him before, everything that my family and I have worked for my entire life could have been lost. Who could appreciate all that I have done to keep my daughter’s father… Read more »
I’m starting to believe there is a matrix inside the matrix, a nightmare within the dream, a ship in the bottle. A fail safe that has been engineered so that we can never really unplug, damn it all to hell.
“This is not surprising as all evidence is lacking that these males are interested in learning as that would mean one of their chief weaknesses is stupidity or ignorance and would go against their firmly displayed belief that deep down, they are actually “alpha” by way of birth.” The firmly displayed belief by men who have taken the red pill is that they can fake it until they make it. Such beliefs, however untrue, provide at least the sliver of willpower and confidence needed to investigate social relationships and communication in an active manner. IE go talk to this girl… Read more »
Your deeply held belief is that men who read and listen to the manosphere are paper alphas regurgitating their same, shitty existence which propagates that which they rail against. No. Again, The posts regarding the feminine imperative illicit an understandable immune response against subjugation. But it does nothing more. Then, since no path out is offered, these males sit in your trauma ward until they eventually receive a “hospital acquired infection:” “overwriting or re-purposing by ideology” their ability to serve. Literally, developing a mental autoimmune disease whereby all subjugation is slavery and detrimental. Rollo just stated that he is heavily… Read more »
Further evidence of what these sites are actually breeding.
The modern value is “Humans are fundamentally good” and nature is evil.
Nature must be corrected. Woman is innately hypergamous and instead of acknowledging this reality and dealing with it, “Modern Psychology” makes up some “ideal” female and male and how things should work instead of how things do work.
No. Modern psychology does not have an ideal male and female. It has an ideal. By definition, a genderless ideal. That’s the point.
“These males sit in your trauma ward until they eventually receive a “hospital acquired infection:” “overwriting or re-purposing by ideology” their ability to serve.” Meanwhile, away from your computer screen, their are actually real problems that men face in society in general and have no one to turn to. If you care that much about the wellbeing of men, why not get out of your chair, leave your house and do something useful in your community instead of spending your whole day spouting your Wikipedia-pyschology expertise to people who don’t care and who also benefit enormously from Rollo’s writings. I… Read more »
I’m starting to believe there is a matrix inside the matrix, a nightmare within the dream, a ship in the bottle. A fail safe that has been engineered
_NEXT
Meanwhile, away from your computer screen, their are actually real problems that men face in society in general and have no one to turn to.
To whom is this directed?
The system is functioning as designed, including the “manosphere.”
Women are human beings that are subject to biological preferences and idiosyncrasies just like men are. “Blue pill reality” is just the state of being ignorant of that fact and the specifics involved in it. I don’t get hung up on exactly what those biological preferences and idiosyncrasies are. If you’re looking for 100% proof of something before you’re willing to test drive it, you’re going to be waiting a very, very long time. This is also the same thing I realized with nutrition. It’s one of the most complicated sciences out there, and if you want to take control… Read more »
“Meanwhile, away from your computer screen, their are actually real problems that men face in society in general and have no one to turn to.
To whom is this directed?
The system is functioning as designed, including the “manosphere.”
Different T, you are a fool – and conceited one at that. Before writing comments like “the system is functioning as designed” which resemble little more than a teenage attempt to sound worldly, first go get some life experience and then come back and tell everyone about “the system”.
How fascinating, scooterpie! How many layers thick do you think it is? I’m of the opinion that the ultimate unplugging occurs at death, but then I think there’s probably even more after that. You remind me of this line from Poe I always found intriguing: “All that we see or seem is but a dream within a dream.”
I see someone is continuing to try to pretend, unsuccessfully, to believe that unplugging is part of being plugged in, and nobody is buying it. That’s a good thing. The first sign of growing awareness of the Matrix is to deny its existence in the very face of evidence of its existence, in order to retain a semblance of the comfort of old beliefs. Very soon after, mere acknowledgement of and kowtowing to the Matrix idea undermines the ability to critically examine it. The next sign of growing realization that unplugging is possible is to deny that unplugging is possible.… Read more »
@Softek “sex/relationships are things I can have in my life if I choose to put the time in to pursue them.
I feel a lot better, anyway. Not that I’m enlightened and living in a state of bliss, but I feel a lot more comfortable in my own skin these days.”
Yes, the abundance mentality is probably the best part of unplugging from the Feminine Imperative and focusing on your autonomy.
“expecting nothing from you, yet happily benefiting from your … [and your … and your …] and your excellent management and care of our family [and chocolate]”
Kate: It’s fascinating you feel the need to justify your relationship and all you have done to start and maintain it. And that you feel the need to justify it here, to Rollo, and to his commentariat. As if you expect some sort of credit or accolades. It’s all about you, isn’t it? You and your accomplishments, your abilities, your pulling through all manner of adversity with pluck, spunk and aplomb. You seem eager to claim the mantle of “heroic single mom”. Do you and mark seek his blessing? Our blessing ? The fact is you and mark are exceedingly… Read more »
Why is the fact that Deti and Rollo have never been divorced a mark against their advice? I think it demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of what the manosphere is to say/imply something like that. The fact that at least two prominent manospherian residents have managed to keep their women “happy” enough to not blow up the marriage is actually a stamp of approval on their advice. It is perhaps the highest compliment. Any fool can keep asking women for sex, eventually get more positive responses, and mark some notches on his belt. It takes an actual man to keep one… Read more »
“Why is the fact that Deti and Rollo have never been divorced a mark against their advice?”
The discussion was about empathy. Rollo contends that one cannot empathize with something they have’t experienced. By his own logic, he cannot empathize with a divorced man because he hasn’t experienced it.
Do you share your stories, deti, to be some sort of “martyred married man”? I’ll give you the credit of saying no.
“This is part of the reason why Game works: by directly communicating that you are resistant to manipulation and you’re aware of power dynamics, you instantly gain the respect of these women.”
Well put.
Also, Rollo the tact and sophistication to bring to the manosphere (must admit I hate that term) is much appreciated.
Kate:
No. I’m not a martyr. I’m an observer.
And it’s not about me.
Diff T sometimes you sound like a busted AI but I appreciate the effort
The second you make a comment, you are no longer an observer. You are a participant and open to attack. It has been about you and what you were able to achieve enough times that I can remember Susan Walsh making some derogatory remark to you about the telling of your story. And I only read there once! But I’m sure you didn’t let that stop you. Sharing real and intricate stories helps people more than any one-dimensional rule could. The tricky parts are in the nuances, which is why I assume there is a Bible and not just a… Read more »
Re: observer vs participant. 1000 Ways To Die. We don’t have to undergo all of them, or ANY of ’em, to catalog them. In fact, not undergoing any of them is a prerequisite to being able to catalog them.
Diff T sometimes you sound like a busted AI
From feminist to robot, the effects of projection and rationalization are astounding.
but I appreciate the effort
Thank you. The evidenced lack of this capacity has been noted and appropriately depreciated.
oh no.
The beta males are qualifying themselves to Kate and company again.
Having lived nearly three score years on this earth and this once-good country, I can tell you that in the last 20 years or more, most men not in the oligarchy are given a huge crap sandwich to eat. however since we are told that it is caviar most of us believe it. It comes not only from feminism and the state, but ironically even from mainstream conservatives and churches. I think more and more men are beginning to recognize it for what it is and trying to find ways to ingest less of it. I am now immune to… Read more »
Rollo: I have a peculiar feeling that LT and DT are either the same or related. Though that might simply be because I’m seeing a similar female-mindset. It could be blinding me to more subtle differences. Glen: May your life continue to improve as you grow and prosper. I know you won’t see these well-wishes, however I felt that they are worth writing. GeishaKate: “Top that motherfuckers.” Angry much? Seriously Kate, why do you bother coming in here for a bruising? You have Mark Minter, he is your Red Pill Alpha Man. There is no need to come into these… Read more »
@BlackPoisonSoul: You forgot to say I made a typo!
My purpose has always been to learn and to help. If I am not being of help, the best thing to do is to remain silent.