A little over fifteen years ago my wife was pregnant with Bebé Tomassi. For most of her adult life Mrs. Tomassi has been a medical professional (radiology) so when she was knocked up she and her girl-friends at the hospital would take any free moment they got to sneak into the ultrasound room a have a peek at our gestating daughter. As a result we have about 4 times as many ultrasound pics as most other couples get. I actually have images of Bebé as a multi-celled organism.
It was during one of these impromptu scannings that we discovered what gender our child would be. We were both more than a bit impatient and didn’t want to wait for the silly build up the OBGYN would make of revealing her gender, so we hit up a girl-friend of my wife to do another ultrasound around the right trimester.
She scanned for a bit and said, “Oh yeah, you’ve got a girl.” We asked how she could be so sure and she said, “Her hands aren’t in the right place.” We were like WTF? Then she explained, “Almost always when the baby is a boy his hands will be down around his crotch once he’s matured to a certain phase in the pregnancy. There’s not much to do in there, so they play with themselves. Your daughter’s hands are usually up around her face.”
After hearing this, it was at that point I began to appreciate the power of testosterone. Whenever I read someone tell me sex isn’t really a “need”, I think about how even in the womb the influence of testosterone is there. For better or worse, our lives as Men center on our capacity to control, unleash, mitigate and direct that influence. Socially we build up appropriate conventions intended to bind it into some kind of uniformity, to prevent the destructive potential and exploit its constructive potential – while personally we develop convictions, psychologies and internalized rules by order of degree to live our lives with its influence always running in the background of our subconsciousness.
Experience
Women become very indignant when trying to understand the male experience. This is due in most part to women’s innate solipsism and their presumption that their experience is the universal one. Part of this presumption is due to social reinforcement, but that social presumption – essentially the equalist presumption – is rooted in women’s base indifference to anything external that doesn’t affect them directly and personally. If everyone is essentially the same and equal, and we’re acculturated to encourage this perspective, it leaves women to interpret their imperatives and innate solipsism to be the normative for men.
So it often comes with a lot shock and indignation (which women instinctively crave) when women are forced, sometimes rudely, to acknowledge that men’s experience doesn’t reflect their own. The reactive response is to force-fit men’s experience into women’s solipsistic interpretations of what it should be according to a feminine-primary perception of what works best for women. On an individual woman’s level this amounts to denial and rejection of a legitimate male-primary experience through shame or implied fem-centric obligations to accept and adopt her experience as his responsibility. On a social level this conflict is reflected in social conventions and feminine-centric social doctrines, as well as being written directly into binding laws that forcibly enact a feminine-centric perspective into our social fabric.
Feminine solipsism and the primacy of the female experience superseding the male experience begins with the individual woman (micro) and extrapolates into a feminine primary social construct (macro).
Virtually every conflict between the sexes comes back to the rejection of the legitimacy of the male experience. As I’ve stated in the past, for one sex to realize their own sexual imperative, the other sex must sacrifice their own. In virtually every dynamic I’ve ever written about the fundamental lack of understanding the male experience influences women’s perception of our sex. Whether it’s understanding our sexual impulse, our idealizations of love, or appreciating the sacrifices men uniquely make to facilitate a feminine reality, the disconnect always distills down to a fundamental lack of appreciating the legitimacy of the male experience.
It would be too easy a cop out to simply write this disconnect off as an existential difference. Obviously men and women cannot spend time in each other’s skin to directly appreciate the experience of the other. However, since the Feminine Imperative is the normative one in our current social makeup the presumption is that a feminine directed ‘equalism’ is the only legitimate experience. Thus the masculine experience is, by default, delegitimized, if not vilified for simply reminding the feminine that inherent, evolved sexual differences challenge equalism by masculinity’s very presence.
I reject your reality and replace it with my own…
Men just being men is a passive challenge to the feminine imperative; red pill awareness is a direct challenge to the legitimacy of a feminine primary experience. It’s important to recall here that the primacy of the female experience begins on the personal level with an individual woman and then exponentially multiplies into a social (macro) scale. When you assert yourself as a red pill Man, you are asserting your disconnection from that feminine-primary frame. This begins on a personal level for a woman, and then extrapolates into a social affront for all women.
The initial shock (and indignation) is one of interrupting her comfortable, predictable expectations of men in the feminine defined, solipsistic reality she experiences for herself. As even the most rookie of red pill Men will attest, the legitimate female experience rejects this assertion, most times with an amount of hostility. As expected, Men are met with the socially reinforced, prepared responses designed to defend against attempts to question the legitimacy of the primacy of the feminine experience – shaming is often the first recourse, even most passive challenges warrant shaming, but character assassination and disqualifications based upon a feminine primary perspective are the go-to weapons of the solipsistic nature of the feminine mindset (even when men are the ones subscribing to it).
The next weapon in the feminine psychological arsenal is histrionics. Aggrandized exaggerations and overblown straw man tactics may seem like a last resort for women to the man attempting to rationally impose his red pill, legitimized, male experience, but know histrionics for what they are – a carefully design, feminine-specific and socially approved failsafe for women. In the same vein as a Woman’s Prerogative (women can change their minds) and the Feminine Mystique, female histrionics are a legitimized and socially excusable tactic with the latent purpose of protecting a woman’s solipsistic experience. She’s an emotional creature and your challenge to her ego only brings out the hysteric in her – it’s men’s fault that they don’t get it, and it’s men’s fault for bringing it out in her by challenging her solipsism. And thus is she excused from her protective histrionics at men’s cost.
It’s important for red pill Men to understand what their presence, much less their assertions, mean to the feminine; their very existence, just their questioning, represents a challenge to individual, ego-invested feminine solipsism. Always be prepared for the inevitable defense of a woman’s solipsism. Even in the most measured approach, you are essentially breaking a woman’s self-concept by reminding or asserting that her experience is not the universal experience. There’s a temptation for red pill Men to get comfortable with a woman’s who accepts red pill truths, only to find that her solipsism has only accepted the parts of those truths that its comfortable with and benefits from. That solipsism doesn’t die once she’s acknowledged the legitimacy of your experience, anymore than your sexual imperative dies if you accept her experience as the legitimate one.
The question becomes, how do Red Pill men begin to turn the tide to have the legitimacy of the male experience recognized?
This an indirect dig at Mark Minter?
Guess again.
Rollo, Very deep piece. It’s important for red pill Men to understand what their presence, much less their assertions, mean to the feminine; their very existence, just their questioning, represents a challenge to individual, ego-invested feminine solipsism. Always be prepared for the inevitable defense of a woman’s solipsism. Even in the most measured approach, you are essentially breaking a woman’s self-concept by reminding or asserting that her experience is not the universal experience. Yes…took me awhile to realize this. Perhaps one of the final red pill lessons I learned. Of course, the next trick in the bag of tricks is… Read more »
The question becomes, how do Red Pill men begin to turn the tide to have the legitimacy of the male experience recognized?
Accidently hit post before my typing my response….. I think the answer to that is one guy at a time. I don’t have a crystal ball, but I believe the peak of femcentrism occurred in the late 1990s. The Internet has created the medium for information to spread without the necessity of some “march in the streets” political movement. There are no politicians to lobby, no funding to get, although perhaps legal reform is a logical goal down the road. The “turning of the tide” will occur one guy at a time who decides to assert instead of supplicate or… Read more »
Guess again?
LOL…initials are AG.
That was a hint for Sim
This an indirect dig at Mark Minter? LOL…initials are AG. Giggles is probably only tangential here. Given: “Aggrandized exaggerations and overblown straw man tactics” “a carefully design, feminine-specific and socially approved failsafe for women” and “female histrionics are a legitimized and socially excusable tactic with the latent purpose of protecting a woman’s solipsistic experience” I would guess it is more of a response to SSM’s rather ugly histrionics fit to Rollo’s previous post. There are no true Red Pill Women in the sense that men are Red Pill. Some may profess to be and and even appear to act Red… Read more »
The question becomes, how do Red Pill men begin to turn the tide to have the legitimacy of the male experience recognized?
By recognizing the refusal to admit or accept the legitimacy of the male experience for what it is – just another big shit test.
Refuse to bow.
Refuse to submit.
Refuse to be shamed.
Refuse to be arbitrarily redefined.
Point and laugh, tease, agree and amplify, and then continue doing and thinking as you will while enjoying the impotent hand wringing and sputtering.
Rollo, I have to ask you a question that bothers me deeply. As a given, women resort to the exact same lines, shaming tactics and predictable responses to anything which they perceive as an affront to Feminine Primacy. That being said, what do you attribute this to? The fact that they all tend to use the exact same script? The reason this bothers me is because I cannot comprehend how literally EVERY woman could use the exact same tactics and even the same words in the same order, every time. On the one hand, part of me believes that they… Read more »
@MaskAndRose
Occam’s Razor suggests a simpler answer. Mass media. It is fully engaged in constant harping the female imperitive. If there were books, we’d each find at least one or more in our lives, lying around the house. We do not.
Mass media, scripting out social exchanges, each show feeding on scripted responses from other shows. Electronic solipsism, directed from central offices and board rooms. Men have the Internet, vast, uncontrollable, undirected, it is our tool to counter the feminine hive mind of mass media. In the end, we win this game, you know?
@BC
Agree on an individual level. On a macro level however what you call for is extrapolated to mean mass civil disobedience. One cannot simply point and laugh and ignore Family Courts, they will slit a man from throat to groin and feast on his in innards with glee. If enough men challenge the laws however, we can turn the tide. Idiotic White Knights are our biggest enemy here though, we simply do not have enough awake on our side to counter Men Who Bow To Tears.
“She’s an emotional creature and your challenge to her ego only brings out the hysteric in her – it’s men’s fault that they don’t get it, and it’s men’s fault for bringing it out in her by challenging her solipsism.”
Sounds like women have either lost the ability to…or don’t have the capability for empathy.
Men however do have this ability which is why her hysterics sometimes work.
BC September 10th, 2013 at 2:05 am There are no true Red Pill Women in the sense that men are Red Pill. Some may profess to be and and even appear to act Red Pill (for a time), but that is only because “right now they feel like (Red Pill).” But sooner or later, something happens to unleash their inner hamster and the Feminine Imperative rears its ugly head. ——- You know, for a long time, I thought ‘can women really be red pill’? I have a lot of respect for GWW, but at the same time, I always wondered,… Read more »
You’re all wrong! It’s the Barbie dolls. Barbies subliminally communicate with little girls while they are in the semi-hypnotic state of brushing their hair to teach them all they need to know about the feminine imperative on a subconscious level. Babies are evil I tell you. On a more serious note: Rollo, you are awesome. Your borderline obsessive abuse of big shiny words aside ( thank god for dictionary websites) you have truly opened my eyes to a world I actually WANT to live in. Ten years ago I wouldn’t have bought two words of this “red pill” drivel. By… Read more »
Superb post. I was talking to a friend of mine about women needing to be told no more often. Since we live in a fem-conditioned society, the default response of people towards women is yes. And when you’re a red pill aware man, and you say no to a woman, you better get ready for a shit storm. It will be either tears or shouting of accusations of being a misogynist. I was out with my buddy two weekends ago. His roommate brought along her friend (let’s call her Mara), who also brought along her girlfriend. Let’s call her KT.… Read more »
As a man , you should never seek Validation or Recognition from a female / Society, Because you will never get. Take action -> Ignore all the noise.
@Latin
Good observation on telling women “no” more often. Then stick to it. Let the tears flow over and around you, continue living happily and let women figure out that they greatly overestimate the power of their sexual toolset.
Besides, generally and no matter how immersed in Femi-conditioning, women get wet when a man puts her in her place and stands firm. The world needs more Sean Connery and less Alan Alda, ASAP.
Ding! Ding! Ding! Tell him what he’s won Johnny,…
@MaskandRose, this post touches on your question a bit: http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/13/the-hypergamy-conspiracy/ Maybe not as comprehensive as you’d like, but I do have an upcoming post that’s kind of along the lines of your question. The short versions is that I think the consistency with which women from across many social strata and cultures will use the same or very similar social conventions and interpersonal tactics is both acculturated and innate. Innate in the sense that the purposes for developing and using them all stem from the same need – hypergamous filtering. Acculturated in the sense that those “techniques” have to evolve… Read more »
Well, maybe it’s just selection bias, but I’ve had the complete opposite experience. Most of the female friends I’ve (accidentally) shared red pill thoughts with have immediately agreed and weighed in with similar opinions. It’s the men that seem to go all WK/shaming/blue on me.
“”Virtually every conflict between the sexes comes back to the rejection of the legitimacy of the male experience. As I’ve stated in the past, for one sex to realize their own sexual imperative, the other sex must sacrifice their own.””
I believe guys themselves sabotage the legitimacy of the male experience by pedestalizing women, by being self-effacing with women, by considering themselves “lucky” to be with someone.
@Rollo A year’s free subscription to the blog? @Lord Highbrow I also thought that women might be able to become Red Pill, especially in the manosphere, at least until every single one outed themselves in some way or another. And you are spot on with it being just another form of pedestalization. @ The Burninator “If enough men challenge the laws however, we can turn the tide.” Short of socioeconomic collapse that brings physical realities to the fore again, you are never going to get anywhere by challenging and trying to change/fix the system. Men need to be willing and… Read more »
And speaking of histrionics,…
http://therationalmale.com/2013/06/04/cant-buy-me-alpha/#comment-22731
@BC Similar “cannot be done” sentiments once existed in regards to gun laws here in Ohio. It was certain, for decades, that no challenge would win and we best hunker down and wait for the revolution. A dedicated band of men said “No!” and refused to accept that route. Now we can, and do without license or permission, open carry regularly without cops doing anything but smiling and nodding, and concealed carry is easier to get than a credit card. Form special interest groups and alliances, get in close contact with your Statehouse reps, and you erase so many bad… Read more »
OK – anyone that believes there is such a thing as a “Red Pill” woman, is delusional in my mind. I appreciate that we (as men) want to believe this can be true, but it can’t (think SSM is a perfect example of this) because…. As it has been stated before, women get their validation, proof and reality from the larger group. Men (from a biological/evolutionary perspective) will seek their own truth. Now, over the past few decades, men have become conditioned to seek social validation (tapping into their feminine energy as David Deida frames it) – and one of… Read more »
BTW, I love the picture you used for this post.. That is obviously one guy that will not say NO – I wonder how that’s working out for him?
Yeah, that guy is a total tool.
Only Christ (whether you take this event literally or symbolically) has the ability to confer benefit with a single action: his death on the cross represents his sacrifice so that others may be forgiven. In ordinary life, however, a man cannot satisfy a woman with one large, sacrificial action. A fantastic vacation five years ago does not make a woman happy today. Just as a great sex streak five years ago will not make a man happy today. From both sides, there needs to be a continual investment over time. The mistake is thinking these investments need to be large.… Read more »
“I believe guys themselves sabotage the legitimacy of the male experience by pedestalizing women, by being self-effacing with women, by considering themselves “lucky” to be with someone.”
It’s a combo.
1) Not pedalizing their mission
2) Putting women on the pedestal as their mission instead
If we were too busy with shit we have to do and only have women as a break from that…we could care less about her hamsterizations.
Which is why I say sex is a want…and our mission is the need.
Rollo
Re: $10 Words. I actually think I’ve done pretty well in limiting my vernacular lately.
“Dat’s not vernacular, dat’s a doiby!”
The reason this bothers me is because I cannot comprehend how literally EVERY woman could use the exact same tactics and even the same words in the same order, every time. There is no book (but that made me laugh) because it’s all based on feelings. It is incredibly hard for us articulate our feelings in a coherent way so when we hear a talking point that seems to connect with how we feel we latch onto it and run with it. With many, many people these points work beautifully so we hang onto them. When challenged, we go to… Read more »
Something else to consider with the solipsism making it impossible for women to understand certain things about masculinity is that 1) we want to be able to say we understand so that we can impress you with our understanding. 2) It drives us absolutely crazy that we are so curious about men and men only things and that you all basically couldn’t care less about women only stuff. We project onto that you should be just as curious about our knitting circles as we are about your men’s only clubs. We try to bridge a gap that cannot be bridge.… Read more »
Ok, I’ll bite. Outside of the technicalities and artistry in knitting, what would I or any man be interested in precisely? Those are gossip circles, correct, with knitting as an excuse? On the other hand if you we’re taking up a non-goss activity, I would be interested.
Burninator,
I’ve never been but I would say that yes, they are for women to get together to talk with knitting as an excuse. Men wouldn’t be interested for obvious reasons. But I think women tend to believe that when men get together they gossip as well. And if your not gossiping then just what are those men talking about?! I MUST KNOW.
That fact that you could not care less about our gossip is vexing. It’s not exactly rational but it’s there in a very big way, nonetheless.
Stingray, Ok, here’s a man activity I participate in, biker rallies (motorcycle). Ride in, drink, talk about hot chicks, work, fun and or stupid things we’ve done that week, motorcycles, upcoming trips, boobs, sports, poker runs/memorial rodes, after parties and firearms. At no point do we go on about gossip or “feelings”, except lust and triumph which topics we do touch upon. We also have contests of strength sometimes, and hard rock bands drowned out all attempts to talk much after 8 pm or so. The few women that show up are either fugly (but down to earth and nice)… Read more »
I know what this post was for, and frankly, it’s brilliant Rollo. Allow me to put this in black-and-white. Rollo says… The initial shock (and indignation) is one of interrupting her comfortable, predictable expectations of men in the feminine defined, solipsistic reality she experiences for herself. As even the most rookie of red pill Men will attest, the legitimate female experience rejects this assertion, most times with an amount of hostility. As expected, Men are met with the socially reinforced, prepared responses designed to defend against attempts to question the legitimacy of the primacy of the feminine experience – shaming… Read more »
In fact, I see numerous historical parallels between bike nights and ancient Germanic men gathering in mead halls to drink, boast, joke, slap women’s asses and have a great time. In fact, nearly identical except for the absence of the occasional dismemberment.
rollo,
where did you get this picture?
@lovelost, not sure. I’ve had it in my RM library for a while now.
@maskandrose It’s mostly biological/psychological. And due to the fact that most men are pussy beggars and will give their left nut to keep their woman happy and from leaving them (thus cutting them off from sex with her and embarrassing the man in a pre-Un-selection kind of way so that other women in the small tribe will want to avoid him), men just put up with women’s hysterics and shaming and try to avoid all that to begin with. The fact of the matter is beta females usually have more sexual and societal power and value than beta males and… Read more »
Speaking of solipsism and women…
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/10/newlywed-wife-charged-with-second-degree-murder-in-death-husband-in-montana/
Money quote:
Nobody is shocked at all … She’d been telling people she knew she never wanted to be married, she just wanted to have a wedding, and that’s apparently what they were arguing about.”
Crime: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/10/20422793-florida-man-admits-he-tricked-girlfriend-into-taking-abortion-drug
Not a Crime: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/07/opinion/alimony-for-your-eggs.html?_r=0
Crime: http://www.returnofkings.com/16637/negative-hiv-tests-for-sale
Not a Crime: http://www.dailydot.com/lifestyle/positive-pregnancy-tests-craigslist/
Any more questions about feminine social primacy being the only legitimate social gender frame?
Burninator,
Heh, but that’s just it isn’t it? We say we want to know, but telling us isn’t enough. We want to be a part of it. We want to experience it. We want to see if the men will accept us and more than that, if they will like us. So, basically, it boils down to attention and female competition.
In short, hypergamy.
@Stingray …It drives us absolutely crazy that we are so curious about men and men only things and that you all basically couldn’t care less about women only stuff. We project onto that you should be just as curious about our knitting circles as we are about your men’s only clubs. We try to bridge a gap that cannot be bridge… Yes. Honestly, it cannot be bridged. I will never actually be interested to hear how the day of my female SO went. I will listen and hear the factual outline of what happened, I may even offer the best… Read more »
@stingray Burn wasn’t wrong in his replies about what men do/talk about when it’s just the guys. However, I think we can dig a little deeper: There’s a good reason why so much of the manosphere revolves around alpha/beta references. Men have pack animal instincts and that includes the way we socialize with each other. Just about everything we do and say to and around other men can be whittled down to competition for domination. Feminization may have confused our instincts of dominating women but our instinct to dominate other men is still fully intact. When I think back to… Read more »
Jeremy, There is no way I can answer you question as I cannot begin to imagine what it is like to go through what you describe as being a man. I remember trying to empathize with what you describe when my husband attempted to describe it to me once (of course I got indignant when he told me that I couldn’t possibly understand what it’s like to get hard for absolutely no reason whatsoever). I could not do it. I can’t even begin to imagine that. And just as you said, there are experiences that women go through that men… Read more »
@ The Burninator re: effecting systemic change
I see. Good luck.
Understand, it is not an insult to your intelligence to declare that you cannot fully empathize with my experience, simply based on sex. It is no more an insult to your intelligence than to suggest that you cannot fully empathize with what the bottom-rung of the dirt-poor has had to go through in China or India on a daily basis for the last thousand or so years. However, for some reason, if we dare to suggest that life-experiences or perspectives based on sex are different *and* incomprehensible to the other sex, people get indignant. We easily accept that differences in… Read more »
@ Daniel Just about everything we do and say to and around other men can be whittled down to competition for domination. Feminization may have confused our instincts of dominating women but our instinct to dominate other men is still fully intact. And this probably gets to the very heart of it. I’ve been very blessed to be able to watch these interactions many times in my life and I love every minute of it. I think it has to do with seeing who will be the dominate one, who will win, because we want to know that man. More… Read more »
Jeremy, Thank you and I understand. However, only when it comes to difference in experiences between the sexes do we get upset at being told that we don’t understand. It’s because we’ve been told that men’s experiences are more valuable than women’s (mostly by feminists). While it’s untrue, many still believe it because it’s felt. Men receive overt attention that women want. Therefore it’s believed that men’s experiences are better and more valuable. Women’s value tends to be covert and therefore we don’t feel that our experience adds as much value. While untrue, the feelings are still there for many.… Read more »
@Stingray It’s because we’ve been told that men’s experiences are more valuable than women’s (mostly by feminists). Men’s experiences are more valuable… to men. They will remain so forever, regardless of what those experiences are. We could have society completely invert and have women on top, leading the developed world, and mens’ experiences would still be more valuable to men than women’s experiences. The reason this is so rests in biology, not sociology. Men and women are essentially sex objects to each other, and always will be. What they are trying to extract from each other is vastly different. Because… Read more »
Stated feminine imperative: “How much do you love me?”
Actual feminine imperative: “How much can you elevate me?”
Open question:
Is it just my mistaken impression, or do women as a group seem to have a real problem understanding the difference between “ought” and “is” ? “should be” and “are”?
@Anonymous Reader
Yes, because Women strive for “fairness”* and tend to be sheltered from reality, whereas Men respect justice and must face reality (or get run over by it).
* Scare quotes intentional; YMMV
At the end of the day, “your” woman wants your life to be about her – I can’t tell you how many times my (x)wife told me “I just wanted to as important as your job” — at the time, I didn’t know how to provide an answer to that statement. So, I would just stutter and stammer about how she was important and I loved her, yadda, yadda, yadda. The proverbial Catch 22 – she wants to be the most important thing in your, above everything else, but as soon as that happens, she begins to have less and… Read more »
This is why “frame control” is imperative for men. If a woman gets control of the “frame” in a relationship, it’s shit for the man and, as Roissy has said, just imagine a new veiny cock sliding in and out of your woman.
@themaskandrose “That being said, what do you attribute this to? The fact that they all tend to use the exact same script?” Field experience. There are no theories in Game. Game is a result of field experience: trying shit out and analyzing the successes and failures for commonalities and slowly weeding out what works consistently and what doesn’t, and eventually distilling it all down to some consistent principles that are universally true (like “supplicating is unattractive” and “passing shit-tests builds attraction”). This is why if you take a Natural who’s never read The Game, but who’s banged a ton of… Read more »
Solipsism indeed.
My favorite line when asking a woman an objective point of view regarding a specific behavior I’ve noticed many women do is…”I don’t do that.”
@YaReally…
Thanks for the reference point – because I hadn’t thought of it that way – but it makes sense.
Completely different and off point from the aspect of Game, but I once asked a black friend the question “why is that black people think white people have it so easy?” (side note – we have very similar background, upper middle class, live in the neighborhood, same college degree, etc. and so on)….and his answer was…”Because I have a lifetime of experiences to tell me it’s different.”
Regarding so-called red pill women: Women can talk a good game when it is about other women, when it’s NAWALT, or as another commenter said “I don’t do that.” The moment you point out that the red pill woman does in fact do those things from time to time, that indeed AWALT, then that undigested red pill vomits right up out of her into your face.
^^^
QFT
Red Pill women are what happened to the girls you knew in high school who had way more male friends than any girl should.
Red Pill women are what happened to the girls you knew in high school who had way more male friends than any girl should.
They are still women, who when feeling personally put upon will confuse “some” with “all” and “ought to” with “is”, though. MDTT, but on some topics lately on some (cough) blogs I’m seeing Red Pill Women doing this rather a lot.
“Regarding so-called red pill women: Women can talk a good game when it is about other women, when it’s NAWALT, or as another commenter said “I don’t do that.” The moment you point out that the red pill woman does in fact do those things from time to time, that indeed AWALT, then that undigested red pill vomits right up out of her into your face.” Haha. It’s funny. As long as you word it right you can almost always get a girl to agree with most red pill truths. In wording it right, I mean red pill truths apply… Read more »
I would like to think I could never be so arrogant as to presume that I am incapable of being insulted for being a man based on the accusations of others against the male sex. In fact, if I ever chose to pay a psychiatrist who was worth his salt, he would likely tell me there are episodes in my life where I felt exactly that and haven’t dealt with it fully. That being said, I have to believe that I have learned to accept the fact that my own experience going through life is not so much incomplete, but… Read more »
[…] I saw this quote in an otherwise interesting post that brought this to […]
Jeremy: Feel free to read her comment about me on this thread: http://therationalmale.com/2013/07/29/the-script/
and her exchanges with me and other posters regarding me on this thead:
http://sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com/2013/08/17/female-self-deprecation-is-a-way-of-bragging/
and then tell me why you were surprised to learn she is actually entirely entrenched in the feminine imperative.
Red Pill women are what happened to the girls you knew in high school who had way more male friends than any girl should.
Assuming you mean friend as actually friend (I admit that I can’t tell if you might mean that red pill women have slept around) then this is true of me. Is this a bad thing and if so, why?
Is it just my mistaken impression, or do women as a group seem to have a real problem understanding the difference between “ought” and “is” ? “should be” and “are”?
Feelings are, regardless of whether or not they are relevant to the topic or even in the range of the topic. What actually is at that point, is so easily rendered irrelevant.
“then tell me why you were surprised to learn she is actually entirely entrenched in the feminine imperative.” Sunshine Mary and the people that hang out at her blog like Earl are really just Traditionalist Catholics that take from Rollo and the other sphere bloggers what suits their ideals. So they agree with Rollo when it already fits in with Tradcon Catholicism and disagree when it goes too far. The reason you see so many Catholics here is the divergence between RM,CH, Roosh’s red pill truths and traditionalist values and how RM explains why those traditional values are for the… Read more »
Men’s experiences are more valuable… to men
Right. And, boy do women want you to pay attention to our own experiences. Otherwise, we think, how can we compete? Despite what feminists will have you believe, women very much do care what men think of them (all but the omegas, if you will). Women might not have attraction for them all, but their opinions still very much matter.
Well, when SSM insinuates my daughter is, or will be, a slut I have to draw the line. Fuck her, I’m done with the red pill pick-and-pull “christians”. I tried to be cool, I made efforts not to refer to her kids, I try to christian-coat things to blunt the edges of truths that might get taken the wrong way,I had her back when she got doxxed and had her FB hacked,..but you call my girl a slut, and then scrub the comment, fuck off. The Churchies have a deep enough hole to dig themselves out of, and they just… Read more »
Is it just my mistaken impression, or do women as a group seem to have a real problem understanding the difference between “ought” and “is” ? “should be” and “are”? Stingray Feelings are, regardless of whether or not they are relevant to the topic or even in the range of the topic. What actually is at that point, is so easily rendered irrelevant. Then the “should be” or the “ought” is tied up with emotion, and the “is” being purely reality oriented is just not as interesting? Next up: “some” and “all” and “me”. For a few years I’ve been… Read more »
Don’t take it to heart, Rollo 🙁 Your daughter is actually one of the luckiest young ladies in the universe to have your knowledge to guide her. And that about your wife and her friends sneaking off to do the ultrasounds is one of the sweetest stories I’ve heard in a while.
@Stingray Right. And, boy do women want you to pay attention to our own experiences. Well, I would like women to pay lots of attention to and be mesmerized by my stunning physique, I’d like to be able to just put on a special pair of boxers and have any woman want me, but that just aint going to happen like it happens for in-shape women and lingerie. Long ago, before I can remember, my mind gave up on the idea of being able to attract a woman by physical appearance alone. That doesn’t mean I don’t want my woman… Read more »
I can’t imagine raising a daughter with the red pill perspective I have now.
I think I would rather raise any daughter of mine as a nudist than try to accurately convey the truth of the SMP to her at the age of 13-14-15.
Case in point: She links to a Roissy post about home schooling today. Convenient.
http://sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com/2013/09/11/take-heart/
As I said, her blog is just about affirmation of belief, not objective inquiry.
@Kate, I did not see SSM’s handling of you and Minter. She seems to have defaulted to a tried-and-true method of shaming via holier-than-thou intimidation. That’s not necessarily FI, but it’s certainly stereotypical of arrogant Christianity. That’s actually kind of sad, I thought she was more well-spoken than that. I honestly got the impression that you were looking for a man in the manosphere Kate, I honestly did. It’s fair for you to call me out and correct me on that, but those were my feelings even before your wedding announcement. I don’t see anything inherently wrong with this behavior,… Read more »
Rollo, next time a female manosphere blogger pops up, why don’t you just ignore them. It seems to annoy you when you try to befriend and guide them and they ultimately reject it. I just think it’s a lost cause. Women simply will never ever accept a male take on the red pill because it’s in direct contradiction of what they want from this world. Do you really think pampered upper middle class women are the ones that really going to agree with a reality in which their position isn’t exalted whether be behind the scenes or up front? SSM… Read more »
Agreed.
SSM and her crew don’t even want the red pill. They want a time machine.
…fried ice…
affirmation of belief, not objective inquiry
Spot on. This should be a litmus test when judging whether a person is worth spending time on.
Nothing proves the red pill truth Rollo laid out in his post like having a daughter.
SSM implied that, hey? Piss on her indeed (she’s obviously not worth fucking). Just remember the Guide to Birdwatching in the Manosphere: this one would seem to be an Elusive Wife.
That said, stay cool man. Many women get their hornies, an erotic little charge, out of making a strong man lose it – its a creepy game they play. When you catch that creepy little fuckin’ smile on her mug, you know that’s when she’s got you and she knows it too.
Another of the female shit-tests in this world.
“However, what it also means to me is that Mary, and other red-pill women, have not acknowledged their own ignorance. That is frightening. It means they are operating on a false presumption.” OK, I wasn’t going to be crude, but I will…the false presumption is that they can talk the talk AND walk the walk. As hard as it may be for a Man, I can’t fathom how hard it would be on a woman to ingest the Red Pill. But if I’m being real and honest with myself – I don’t really care. And I don’t really believe there… Read more »
@Jeremy: I have little further to say regarding her comments. In my opinion, they speak for themselves. As for the impression you have gotten, I understand why you have it and can practically pinpoint the comment that earned it. But, no, my purpose in coming here a year and a half ago was the last stop in an already long journey to understand men in order to have a better relationship. I hoped to help as I could in exchange and was not here to exploit anyone who might have been in a weakened state. I specifically chose my former… Read more »
I doubt women can be truly red pill, that would require coming to terms with the ugly reality of her inherited nature.
Someone commented earlier that he can’t imagine being a red pill man and raising daughters. I have two young ones, and when they’re talking innocently about what they want to be when they grow up, if they say “I want to be a mommy with five babies!” I respond, “That sounds great!” I’m sure some non red pillers would respond with discouragement, “Oh, you don’t want to just be a mommy, do you?” I think it starts right there with that question. I don’t let them watch too much television, other than PBS (which sometimes I have to correct the… Read more »
Don’ttreadonMatt,
I’ve written on that topic if you are interested. In case you have skipped my comments, I am a woman, so you may not be interested.
http://verusconditio.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/raising-a-daughter-part-1-2/
http://verusconditio.wordpress.com/2013/05/15/raising-a-daughter-part-2/
Apologies if I’ve overstepped given this thread.
Jeremy,
Acceptance is a rational reaction to what you describe. I wish women would get this. Dalrock has a good post up today about this. Women are required to have moxie these days. Without it we are considered meek. Meek is unacceptable in girl world.
Then the “should be” or the “ought” is tied up with emotion, and the “is” being purely reality oriented is just not as interesting? It’s not that if just not as interesting, it’s that he “is” is painful. The pain kicks in the hamster which then does it’s best to get rid of the pain. Truth be damned. As to “some”, “all” and “me”, if it’s not expressly said we automatically think “well, he is talking about women. I am a woman, therefor he must be talking about me.” THIS is why feminist use sweeping generalizations like you stated. If… Read more »
@Donttreadonmatt Love the part about the future dates — and losing the posturing and coming from a standpoint of “here’s what a man does” — great stuff, thanks for sharing. I have struggled with the whole “what to tell my daughter” – she’s 16 and very naive in certain ways and very grown up in others. So, any thoughts in this whole area are always welcome. I’ve been a bit more straight forward with my boys, and stopped sugar coating things and helping them to protect their feelings, their mom sitll provides lots of that. As an aside…my 14 year… Read more »
@Stingray (& Kate), just as a statement of purpose, I never moderate the comments here. This is a blog written by a Man for men and women. Anyone is welcome to add their take on anything I post and, other than blatant spamming, I never edit, scrub or modify any comment, whether I agree with them or not. Open discourse is essential to an objective marketplace of ideas. Sometimes that mean civility may suffer, or toes get stepped on, but no idea, no statement of belief and no assertion of fact or point can ever be tested in a condition… Read more »
And for those wondering how I just showed up here — I’ve been commenting for a while, just under “Yep It’s Me” instead of “Tin Man” — the change over happened a week or so ago. Later Men….
@Rollo… I, for one, appreciate your stance in your comment area. There are plenty of other sites which have either always, or are now, moderating comments. I usually don’t even bother reading their comments, know that the potential is there so skew the “message” to their own way of thinking. Personally, I like the comments of woman – not that I know what they are getting out of it or really care for that matter – because they either provide some bit of information I hadn’t considered, or they are just laughable (but that goes for those men rushing to… Read more »
I actually value the input of women on RM, if for no other reason than they tend to organically prove my points – whether or not they agree with them.
Red Pill women are what happened to the girls you knew in high school who had way more male friends than any girl should. I did have male friends in high school, but that wasn’t the impetus for my interest in men’s issues. I grew up in an all male household for the first 10 years of my life and was always sympathetic to the plight of men. At first the plight of black men, and then boys and men across ethnic lines when husband moved us to the suburbs. The disparity in treatment between the genders in schools was… Read more »
@stingray Thanks for the links. Some useful tips and ideas. The problem comes when mom and dad don’t agree and don’t work as a team, or as captain and first mate. Given the theme of Rollo’s post and this comment thread – that there really is no such thing as a red pill woman – it is up to the man to lead and be the head of the household, and weather those storms that come from time to time. Here’s the way I see it, and I don’t know jack: A man needs to build the frame of the… Read more »
Well said, Rollo.
This is why I don’t put any stake in women telling men to “man up”. If men are, say, choosing not to get married, they are doing so for their own reasons they’ve arrived at as men.
That’s exactly what a man does when he exercises his self-determination, he IS manning up.
Crazy how they try to make something into its opposite, and how many people they actually manage to convince.
@Stingray Acceptance is a rational reaction to what you describe… … and that’s really all that’s necessary. Men are not looking down on you for being under-educated, lacking IQ, or being under-informed as to the ways of the world. They’re not. Your value to men does not suffer for not understanding calculus. However, a man’s value does suffer for being stupid. That fact alone should tell you something. It should tell you that the male experience is vastly different based solely on the fact that men are kept on their intellectual toes by other men far more often than you… Read more »
@ Furious Ferret SSM et al seem to be holding to a modified version of NAWALT, which concedes that MOST women are indeed “like that”… but not Mary, nor her daughter, nor their wives (or hypothetical future wives as the case may be). For example, “tingle addicted sluts” may get aroused by PUAs running game or the water cannon guy from SSM’s story, but real women of quality would NEVER go for anyone like that. No, they just want REAL MEN with Christian virtue, and they don’t like being “objectified”, and they don’t find mischievous “water cannon” guy’s behavior arousing… Read more »
The problem SSM has is she doesn’t want to accept that tingle addiction is ‘factory installed standard hardware’ for human females – herself included. Her daughters are the result of that tingle addiction. She chomps at the bit whenever I reminder her that God and evolution have us hardwired the way we are, but for her to confront that she thinks it means abandoning her convictions, I’m saying it doesn’t. In fact I think it’s personally damaging to pursue this constant denial and insulation from how we’re made. The discomfort she and other christians have with this conflict is EXACTLY… Read more »
This is purely anecdotal, but I can speak some level of experience about Christian behavior – at least the behavior of college age students at a very conservative Church of Christ university…even good little, inexperienced Christian girls get the tingle. The difference is, they tingle on Saturday night, then go to church on Sunday, make the walk of shame to the front of the church to “confess their sins” and it usually would take them a about a month to start hangin’ the bad boys again (who were also in church on Sunday, but didn’t have the same guilt, therefore… Read more »