I can remember watching a few episodes of The Man Show back in 2002 or 2003. I was finishing my degree at the time, and although I was much older than most of my college peers then, I actually had offers from fraternities to join during ‘rush’ week. I never took them up on it; my being at least 10 years older than even the oldest ‘brother’ didn’t sit right with me, and the fact I was working 40+ hours a week didn’t leave me much time to ‘go greek’. Of the few friends I had time for then, at least 4 were frat guys, and they loved The Man Show.
These guys knew of my interest in gender and personality studies in (my then minor) behavioral psychology, but it was mostly due to my presenting them with something they could agree with about how women were. They innocently suggested I check out The Man Show thinking I would be interested in it because “it’s finally a show for guys.” Back then I was dissecting the masculine ridicule and caricaturizations of male roles in movies and TV and these guys were enthusiastic about what I was writing and telling them.
I thought the show was pretty funny at first. I still love and reference Adam Carola, and his insights on gender. However, after watching the show for a while, something wasn’t sitting well for me. I couldn’t put my finger on it then, but at some point I thought, “man this is stupid, can’t we do better than this?” The realization I was making was if this was a “show for men” then men were, well, kind of stupid.
I was already well aware of the dumbing-down of the masculine roles in popular media (TV, movies, etc.), but when what was supposedly an exclusively male oriented show is offered it seems that masculine ridicule is only reaffirmed. I’m using The Man Show as an illustration of a bigger dynamic here – if all we had to go on was popular (i.e. feminized) culture to help us characterize what is masculine then we’d be bad off enough, but it appears that men themselves are almost subconsciously complicit in reinforcing these feminine-defined cartoons of ‘how men really are.’
I love football. I would probably bore you to tears with my enthusiasm about next season and how the pre-season can’t get here soon enough. Ask me about baseball, I’ll tell you I like the Dodgers, but I know relatively nothing about America’s pastime. Soccer, golf, tennis, hockey, I couldn’t carry a conversation about any of them. I like big boobs (fake or real), I like women’s long legs and great assess. You all know I’ve worked in the liquor industry for over 9 years, so I have a vested interest in booze too. However, these natural interests of mine are only small component elements of who I am as a Man.
Granted, sex and alcohol seem to be the top two elements contributing to human happiness, but there is much more to me, much more to my existence as a man, than my base impulses. The problem with defining masculinity in terms of our root interests is that men begin to believe that’s all we have the potential for. For all of its social influence, the Feminine Imperative has no real frame of reference when it comes to the male experience. So in its effort to marginalize the masculine, effectively emasculating society, its only recourse is to define manhood in terms of what best demonizes masculinity. The Imperative can’t afford men to define masculinity for themselves, so the real roles of men are either ridiculous buffoons in need of uniquely feminine correction, or they’re boorish, brutes, poisoned by testosterone and little more than alcoholic, easily manipulable, walking hard-ons.
That’s what men get in their man-space. Hooters, football, beer and boobs. Even in their ‘man-caves’ this is what a woman can expect to find. Left to their own devices, men would simply turn the world into one grandiose Bro-Culture. Nowhere will you find the dreamers, the leaders, the thinkers, the artists or engineers – in girl-world, the majority of men are either pigs or damaged goods.
But if the Feminine Imperative is anything, it’s self-effacing and self-contradicting. According to the Feminine Imperative, for all of the feral worst it characterizes masculinity as, it’s not enough to accept men’s nature as so. You see nothing, not even the feminine reinforced pig-man nature is actually real, it’s just a mask men are socialized to wear.
So what is real masculinity? Make no mistake, the confusing redefinition of masculinity is a deliberate effort in social control on the part of the Feminine Imperative. Pointing out its schizophrenic misunderstanding (or intentional distortion) of the masculine is easy enough, but men have unwittingly adopted and reinforced their own gender role confusion. Either by embracing the Bro-Culture lie or by subscribing wholesale to the feminine identification of what masculinity should be, men are complicit in limiting themselves from defining masculinity for themselves.
Understand this now, a fem-centric society wants you to believe that masculinity is loutish, beer-swilling frat boys AND horribly damaged male psyches socialized into being so. A fem-centric society can’t afford to allow men to self-define masculinity, because it throws that deep feminine need for security and control over to the men they cannot trust because of the same definition it encourages for its own control.
I suppose I should be the first to plug ancient philosophy and how much of it sought to answer the question of “So what is real masculinity.”
That we even have a choice in how to define masculinity is one of the greatest gifts of the Red Pill.
I really find no reason to disagree with you. I may be a little off topic here, but do you have an article where you talk about specifically why these ideas are “dangerous” to mainstream, according to them, the mainstream? The reason I ask is because I read an article on i09 and I really like the articles I get from them. But then I read this article about evolutionary psychology douchebags and the entire article along with the comments basically demonize PUAs and MRAs and men who study these gender issues, even along with criticizing Steven Pinker. Well, some… Read more »
@ Miguel
I could’nt help but substitute the word socirty in your post with female imperative.
Meant society, one beer too many.
I believe the definition of a man is actually very simple. He is a leader and a creator. Anything that supports those two traits is healthy masculinity. Anything that damages those two traits is destructive to a man’s purpose and potential. Many of the things that the Bro Culture defines as masculine are actually quite destructive to true masculinity. Drinking yourself into a stupor leads to a loss of leadership and creativity. Sitting around watching other people play sports while you cheer from a couch is not actually a masculine trait, it is sign of being a follower. A real… Read more »
[…] rationalmale.wordpress.com […]
Damn…. There is always that one article every once in awhile that just hits you with the knowledge with such a simple, black and white rawness to it. You can use this article for the men in Hip-Hop culture (Like me but, I am now old enough to separate myself from it and try an find out who I am)…. But, damn. I realize that all of who I thought I was, or was trying to act like was just a manufactured version of masculinity. I now just take things that can help guide me further on my path to… Read more »
“For the man who wants it all” – Embarrassing nightclub photos on Facebook –
“For all of its social influence, the Feminine Imperative has no real frame of reference when it comes to the male experience.”
Damn, this paragraph, particularly this first sentence is pure insight genius. Women have no conception of men’s truly rich inner lives (Women have told me that “men are emotionally simple”) and thus their portrayal of men is merely a caricature. If men submit to that viewpoint, we’re doomed.
I miss The Man Show.
I going to write another comment, later when I have time, but in the meantime, I just had an observation (it hit me reading Miguel’s comment above) about the use of the word “douchebag” to reference Men of a certain character set (it’s a dynamic list, maybe Rollo should write and article about the word and it’s use). But thinking about it, a douche bag was used to clean a woman’s vagina – and we all know how Men (the majority at least) like vaginas – and we’d all like a clean one – so why is it a derogatory… Read more »
“But then I read this article about evolutionary psychology douchebags and the entire article along with the comments basically demonize PUAs and MRAs and men who study these gender issues, even along with criticizing Steven Pinker.”
io9 is a branch of the Gawker network, the same network that publishes Jezebel. It is not uncommon for these writers to churn out click-bait hit pieces on topics that don’t fit tidily into the multicultural feminist Narrative. They attack evo psych with full force because they can see the truth in it.
cryo, I didn’t know i09 was in the same network as Gawker. I unsubscribed from Gawker, because of the bullshit I’d read from them much of the same way I’d unsubscribed from Huffington Post. Most of the things they’d write about simply offended me, not merely on gender issues but on a wide range of issues. I don’t know. I guess I’m not as liberal as I thought. I like reading i09 because of there articles on science or just weird quirky findings around the world. I’ll keep reading it but if I see it turning into another Gawker, I’ll… Read more »
In the comment above – I meant to say “Do women hate their vaginas?” — just wanted to clear that up. Rollo you need an edit button on the comments – I hate the fact that my rough draft is what is published – all I want to do it go back and edit them to correct my stream of consciousness. But then again, maybe that’s the point.
That last sentence is confused
Remember when remarks or references to black people enjoying watermelon and fried chicken were condemned as racist? I see the same thing in the stereotype of the boorish, dim-witted white male who is all about beer and boobies and sports. Just as the black man is considered to be debased because he has “debased” tastes (as opposed to his white “betters”), the same goes for the white man who needs rescuing by his sensible, ever-practical woman. It’s another form of Step’n Fetchit minstrelry, with white men as the butt of the joke. But since white men are held responsible for… Read more »
I’m hoping the layoff between now and your last post is because you were working on the book. [Yep. Pretty much all I’ve done since May actually.] I didn’t know you had actually studied masculinity in an academic environment, but it makes sense given the tone of your writing. I like when you include self reflections about your earlier life as in this guy. So I was in the Peace Corps in South America for 2 years, and the 3rd world nature of gender roles actually kicked off my interest in the red pill, as I had seen how far… Read more »
From the last thread, I’d just like to say: Earl is the man. It’s about time someone else cut through the rancid fart-air of mass sycophancy these sites tend to develop. This isn’t ninth grade, gentlemen. We don’t have to pretend sex is the meaning of life because we haven’t had it yet. Same thing with pedestalizing the pussy: just because most wannabe Lotharios haven’t gotten their “flags” or sufficient “notches,” it doesn’t take a genius to understand that cunt-friction cannot possibly form the basis for the meaning of life. A man doesn’t have to run headlong into the ennui… Read more »
Rollo, First off thank you for this blog it is a public service for men and has helped me(23yo male) greatly. One thing I don’t understand about the manosphere is the constant need to define masculinity and “Alpha”, you made it clear in other posts that men define what is feminine for women(youth and beauty) due to our biological programming. Is the same not true for women? Females have certain biologically programmed needs that have to be met and is that not what determines what is to be defined as masculine? I agree “Bro culture” is stupid as shit but… Read more »
RyRy, If a man believes in a superior morality it is his right to stand by his principle regardless of what other men and especially what women think. That is true masculinity. You cannot just flip masculinity and femininity around, they don’t work that way — one is active, the other is reactive. Do not mold yourself to attract women — that is the common mistake of beginners in PUA. Shape yourself to be the beast and other stuff becomes icing on the cake… and entrance to your world should be by your invitation only. Thugs think themselves they are… Read more »
One of the things that I’ve been trying to figure out (and by the comments above, other’s have the same question) is… Where is the real conversation happening? I read blog posts, then read through the comments – post my own comments from time to time – but that is mostly a very serial thing, with limited “interactivity”. I post, you post, I read, I comment, you comment – it’s all a series of things – but I want a real conversation, a real sit down, a real sharing in real time about this stuff. And might I add, without… Read more »
@Keanu >> I live in one of those 3rd world nations being targeted by gendered assistance. Girls already outperform boys in all areas in life, and women earn the majority of income except for the handful of patriarchs (usually Chinese) who own the conglomerates. (And of course, through Apex Fallacy, the citizens look at “oh those rich Chinese men and their teen concubines” and blame the patriarchy). Since there is technically nothing further to do to make the girls get a leg up, the current agenda is to teach androgyny by total elimination of teaching of any form of gender… Read more »
OK – I work in the world of IT – and thought this article was interesting (Rollo feel free to delete the comment if it’s too much off topic)… Bowdoin College CIO Mitch Davis makes everyone uncomfortable–and it works By Derek C. Slater Need to promote change in your organization? David Carr’s profile of Bowdoin College CIO Mitch Davis is rich in ideas for accomplishing that. But you’ll have to be ready to introduce lots and lots of friction. “People are freaking pattern engines. If I can take them out of an element where they’re used to injecting patterns, I… Read more »
There’s a term used to describe the operation of my local metro rail service: Build Operate Transfer (BOT). Usually a foreign-linked private firm will invest and construct the infrastructure and operate it for a few years, after which it will hand over the reins to the local government body who will usually proceed to run it like crap. BOT aptly describes what has happened to our society, now being run by people who are either too stupid, too evil, or both. That is not to say that some of the midlevel people aren’t smart, but the people on top are… Read more »
Mass media has to aim for the lowest common denominator. To attract the maximum number of male viewers, concentrate on beer, football, and balloon-smuggling babes. At higher cognitive levels, men are too diverse to target — some build motorcycle transmissions, some tie fish lures, some write Linux device drivers, etc.
It’s easier to cater to women because they’re more homogeneous. They never get bored with diet tips, relationship advice, and celebrity gossip.
@Association of Chronos The interesting thing is that in most cases men are following what the female herd demands. Even many alphas are doing this, though it tends to be in more sexy and powerful ways, and some alpha behavior is just because they really want to be that way. It’s really only when you get to the apex alpha males where men are the more influential ones and not only influence other men but also the whole female herd. Look at how the pop culture apex alphas want slutty women that give it up easy and how so many… Read more »
@Rollo I think that it’s important to realize–as you allude to–that feminists do not want men to fully achieve so that there is less competition for feminist women to achieve career success and political power. And the apex alphas and even many alpha and greater-beta males are happy that so many men are deemed unattractive so that they can have either the best women or a large quantity of women to themselves. The alliance of the “top” men (as defined by society today, whether or not one thinks such men should be valued so highly) with feminist and hypergamous and… Read more »
So if feminists can get men to just buy into beer-drinking culture and not achieve anything then it opens the way for them to take more power.
I suppose this will butt up with the reality of less tax receipts for fem-focused gov’t spending and less providers to marry eventually but feminists are often known for not caring about some of the long-term consequences of their actions.
@yep it’s me
Feel free to check out justfourguys where I and three other guys post. There’s fairly good conversation there and usually someone responds to what others say.
I’ll give Jimmy and Adam a pass; their show was one of the first out of the block, they were’nt sure quite how offensive they could be and stay on the air, its writing was hit or miss, but it could be genuinely funny. Jimmy Kimmel in particular likes to present himself as a dumb jock (he did this even more when co-hosting “Win Ben Stein’s Money”). Bill Burr still does it too; it’s his pressure relief valve for red-pill material, then defusing it with “but what do I know, I’m an asshole.” Howard Stern also is a master at… Read more »
Look at this comment thread.
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2013/07/15/politics-and-feminism/feminisms-marketing-strategy/comment-page-1/#comment-222312
Susan literally does not want me or any other commenter questioning the value of marriage for a man.
I posted it to show that she is a strong believer in the good of the Feminine Imperative.
And this surprises who? Heheh,.
@booger Yes it is a man’s right to have his own moral code, I agree, what I was trying to say is that morality is not intrinsically sexually appealing to women and it does no one any good to pretend that it is.I feel you are correct about pick up as well; without improving yourself it is really just an inefficient numbers game. I think the confusion we have comes from men confusing honorable behavior with masculinity. Honor is a good characteristic that is valued by society and other men, masculinity is strictly sexual and is defined by women. Honor… Read more »
There was a great skit on the Man Show once where they went to a mall and asked women “if there was a pill that made you smarter, but it made your ass fatter, would you take it?” Can’t find it too easily on YouTube right now.
Of course some women in ghetto fabulous culture now probably want fatter asses.
Feminists may have attempted to warp the definition of masculinity, but females still determine what is masculine. Art, leadership, strength, and wisdom are all great byproducts, but the only real metric is a wet vagina. Skyscrapers and satellites aren’t built because men are bored. By that same virtue, men determine what is feminine. I’m not saying this to sound like a Bro, I’m saying it because everything always boils down to sex. Fortunately for men, what women find “masculine” can run the gamut from brutish or downright savage to intellectual and polite. There just needs to be a few common… Read more »
Rollo, I’m sorry but I like me some titties. In fact, I got this theory that the whole Economic Stimulus package passed during the worst days of the recession just missed on the very thing I think would have quickly ended this recession overnight. Boob jobs for women. That’s right. If the stimulus package would have paid for boob jobs, then unemployment among men would have ended practically overnight. So you’re living at home in mom’s basement and got nothing to lose, then hey, you stay down their till the unemployment runs out. You get the check, buy a quarter… Read more »
This is not very correct. Beer is there for a reason. When I started to go to big brothels I was amazed that once men start to get laid with incredible hot woman they don’t have the need anymore to use any narcotics. Alcohol is free in those places, you can drink yourself drunk if you want to, but the point is: nobody does that. They fuck a model or two, lie around, eat a steak, and socialize with their fellow men and discuss businesses and watch soccer. When you observe this behavior you really understand that everything guys do… Read more »
I think the confusion we have comes from men confusing honorable behavior with masculinity. Honor is a good characteristic that is valued by society and other men, masculinity is strictly sexual and is defined by women. Masculinity: set of qualities, characteristics or roles generally considered typical of, or appropriate to, a man. ———————– When you observe this behavior you really understand that everything guys do is in function of getting woman. After this is met, there is nothing more needed in life than waiting, relaxing and building up your energy for the next fuck-session. You ought to reconsider the selection-bias… Read more »
but feminists are often known for not caring about some of the long-term consequences of their actions.
I think you give too much credit. They do not have any thought for long term consequences of their actions because their thoughts are stuck on should instead of will.
The real problem with discussing manhood and what is masculine is usually the dudes doing the talking have done nothing that requires balls. Once you’ve made a habit of taking risks, overcoming obstacles that pose a real threat to your life and health… well then you know and you don’t much care what folks have to say on the topic
Wait so is this post saying that the current booze nations out there are a result of femcentric conditioning? Unbelievable. Don’t want to be off topic here, but I recently went on a night out where there was a lot of booze, me and another girl remained sober throughout it, and I ended up making out with her and another girl. Now 2 days later I saw my ex and told her about my antics for the sake of it (she asked I replied). I’m guessing that didn’t matter, but I was wondering, I’ve read the Iron rules post and… Read more »
Here’s the post I’m referring to: http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/22/youve-been-with-how-many-girls/
“The real problem with discussing manhood and what is masculine is usually the dudes doing the talking have done nothing that requires balls. Once you’ve made a habit of taking risks, overcoming obstacles that pose a real threat to your life and health… well then you know and you don’t much care what folks have to say on the topic” Great point, why are we discussing masculinity on a blog about masculinity? Totally beta bro. I’m gonna go put a chaw o’ tobakky in and drag my giant balls off to a bar fight. Thinking is for pussies. John Wayne.… Read more »
@Matthew King “Men need sex like they need to urinate? We used to have a term for this incontinent condition: “pussy whipped.” (Before PUA catalogers appropriated to themselves the redefinition of all terms.) Jack off on a towel or into latex or on a woman’s face. They are all servile self-abuse, the slavery to a biological urge no different from fat women eating too much cake.” No. Pussy whipped refers to supplicating to the owner of a specific pussy, in order to ensure further access to said pussy. That is a very far cry from maximizing your potential to get… Read more »
@Stingray I think that some of the more cunning feminists are able to see that by demonizing men and boys they will push them out of university and the workforce and leave more slots open for women. That by creep shaming they will make it so that only the Tom Bradys can approach and satisfy their hypergamy (see SNL skit). That by saying women need to put career above relationships and kids (see Atlantic and Salon articles) that many of the over-achiever types that want to be part of the feminist female herd will subdue their natural desires for reln… Read more »
@Miguel “I’ve argued with a close friend and co-worker of mine. He gets agitated for whatever reason it is when I tell him about things that I believe concerning genders. For example, I tell him that I hate how society wants to demonize men for having strong sexual desires and that I feel he should not suppress his desires for his own girlfriend. He gets upset and says that that is objectification of a woman. And I feel as though he ridicules me because I have no say on the subject simply because he majored in anthropology and I virtually… Read more »
Corey, thanks. You’re the first to respond to my questions directly. It clears up a few things. I refer to my father quite often for one pure simple reason, that he epitomizes everything that American Western Cultures speak out against. But the thing is that women love my father. It’s amazing how much they respect him and how many look up to him. I tell my friend that there aren’t many men that way… but it seems to fly over his head or he’s just in cognitive dissonance or something. I tell him that my father cheated on his wife… Read more »
@ Miguel “So if I can summarize anything from all that’s been said, I completely agreed with Rollo and it spoke to a deep part of me, because women just don’t know or seem to care the depth or struggles that a man must go through just to be taken noticed by them. Being a man, or being masculine is real deep shit. There is no way to assess masculinity. We’re complex human beings with complex emotions. Our brains are more complicated than an entire galaxy. It’s why we have religions. It’s why the Bible talks about shit like it… Read more »
@Miguel I’m assuming you’re under the age of 30 – rejoice in the fact that you have recognized some very fundamental truths about the depths of who you really are. Much like dealing with women on certain subjects – the friend you describe may not get it (now or ever) – and arguments, debates, or protests will not sway him or anyone else. Much like all truth in the world, it has to be discovered, synthesized and then integrated into someone’s life. As the old saying goes…”You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink”. As… Read more »
@Rollo // HIJACK Today was the first time I’ve visited Athol Kay’s blog since he revamped his “MAP” and generalized it for “to appeal to a larger audience”. And you know, the teeth are being ripped out of the lion’s month at an ever increasing rate. I really respected what he wrote in MMSLP, but not liking the “new and improved” version. He was helping Husbands to get a better relationship through creating a better “them” – but now the women are in the room, and the men are shutting up and sitting down, being polite and systematically being moved… Read more »
So noted.
There has seemed to be (a not unexpected?) shift in his target demographic since his new book got published.
I won’t call him D’Angelo yet, but I’m noticing a pattern.
hey rollo!! yes! dey leave out da GRAT BOOKS FOR MENZ when they define menz!!! THE GREAT BOOKS FOR MEN WILL RIDE AGAIN: THE INVERSION OF ALPHA & BETA: THE FALSE SIREN OF DR. HELEN SMITH’S MEN ON STRIKE & Michelle Malkin’s Hand-Wringing All men should begin immediately by reading the following books which the central bankers and their fellow churchians hate, fear, and detest: 0. THE BIBLE 1. Homer’s Iliad 2. Homer’s Odyssey 3. Exodus & Ecclesiastes & The Psalms 4. Virgil’s Aeneid 5. Socrates’ Apology 6. The Book of Matthew & Jefferson’s Bible 7. Plato’s Repulic 8. Seneca’s… Read more »
“I won’t call him D’Angelo yet, but I’m noticing a pattern. ”
The first material I ever laid my hands on was from de Angelo.
All he did was describe some basic princples and what a shittest was and I ran with it.
See, all I needed was someone to tell me it was ok, though I dont know why exactly.
So, why I do understand a little bit of Elam hating, for some people he has exactly the right message at exactly the right time.
Eben
Goddamnit
” Davis tells Carr. “What I try to do is make work a little uncomfortable every day, for everybody.”
Davis’s number one method for doing this is to disagree with anyone and everyone. Frequently. “
What a guy, eh?
Good way of getting a smack, where I work. Or ending up in the cement hopper. If you carried on like that you would be addressed as “Hey, Cunt!” up to that point, as well. Whatever your job title. Timewaster.
[…] Beers, boobs, and defining masculinity. […]
Being female, I think we’re all confused as a society. It’s as if we try to manipulate each other. Why don’t we be interdependent? Why can’t we be a team? Win/win or no deal?
@Ellie c’est la vie. Easier said than done.
@Ellie con’td. And if you’ve been reading enough of Rollo… here is what I get from it and from others who are posting the same thing. Every time we function as a society, we as humans are predisposed to give women the better end of it for various reasons. I mostly believe that it’s because its in our instinct to care for the bearers of life so that life can be carried on. But it goes much deeper than that, and men are somehow trained to give their entire lives to women. Everything I do is for women. You have… Read more »
[…] want’s got nothing to do with it. It’s easy to characterize this vetting in the context of Bro Culture, but the fact of the matter is that it exists in every masculine subdomain from Frat Brothers and […]
[…] to be strong, to be man. Our culture has turned this into a parody. Either man as evil or man as castrated loser. When to be a man is the highest calling that there […]