Master & Servant

master-servant

Evan12 on the SoSuave forum has an interesting observation:

I’ve noticed in many lesbian couples the submissive woman in the relationship is not embarrassed from that , and she showed her love and submissiveness to her partner without shame. For example they write on their facebook “I want to worship you” or “you are my goddess ” etc.

Also in real life they took some clear orders from their dominant partner, that if a man would’ve ordered a woman in-front of others they would consider it degrading to them .

In the workplace, I find women submit to other female managers very easily and sometimes even voluntarily, but when a man is manager they play a lot of power games to challenge/question his authority.

Is this because of public shaming from the figure of woman following a man, so women feel more free to show her submissive side when it is toward a woman and not a man ?

The inimitable Burroughs (who is cordially invited to comment more on this blog) then picks up the next salient point:

The next time you switch on the television, count how many programs have the token ‘stupid boyfriend’ or ‘abusive husband’ or ‘paedophilic father’ figure.

Switch over to a children’s channel / time window and watch how many cartoons or programs reflect ‘silly daddy’ characters or ‘bullying big brother’.

Don’t forget, of course, nearly all the women in these same programs will be smart, sexy, sassy and full of beans, capable of juggling a career lifestyle with children, a husband and a social circle

– let’s not forget that she’s undoubtedly a wonderful cook and always remembers everybody’s birthdays.

If these images are being constantly spread out over our airwaves, what does that tell our children who are growing up watching & learning daily, hourly, that men are just so stupid, abusive and … well, useless?

I addressed a good portion of Evan’s observation in Sexual Fluidity:

Ironically—or not, as some might argue—it is certain “masculine” qualities that draw many straight-labeled women to female partners; that, in combination with emotional connection, intimacy, and intensity.

“Men can’t understand why I want to be with Jack, a lesbian, when I could be with a biological man,” says Gomez-Barris. “And at first I thought it would be threatening, but I have a rebellious spirit. He’s powerful, accomplished, and appealing. And in some ways, the experience is better than in heterosexual sex.

So what are we seeing here? Heterosexual women, still crave the masculine dominance that men cannot or will not provide her. Thus, we see condition dictate response.

Burroughs accurately notes the social symptoms of the dynamic. It’s not difficult to outline how the institutionalized social feminization (via mass media ridicule and shaming of masculinity) of men over the past 60 years has greatly contributed to men uncomfortable in their innate masculine predispositions. However, by the same means, the other side of the story is women’s fem-centric conditioning predisposes them not to expect masculinity to be anything other than negative when coming from a human being born with a penis. Masculinity paired with a vagina however is the only legitimate form of masculinity acknowledged.

It takes a feminized society of millions and half a lifetime of institutionalized feminization conditioning to repress the male definition of masculinity in a man. As I’ve noted before, feminization seeks to redefine masculinity to better fit with an egalitarian equalist doctrine, but what thwarts the effort is men’s biological, and in-born psychological, bent to manifest a uniquely male defined masculinity.

Hypergamy’s Doms & Subs

This is only one half of the dynamic though. The other half being women’s innate desire, through natural hypergamy, to be submissive to that male-defined masculinity; but only to the man who is dominant enough to satisfy a woman’s hypergamy.

In an era when Hypergamy has been given free reign, it is no longer men’s provisioning that dictates her predisposition to want to be a submissive partner in their relationships. To an increasingly larger degree women no longer depend upon men for the provisioning, security and emotional support that used to insure against their innate Hypergamous impulses. What’s left is a society of women using the satisfaction of Hypergamy as their only benchmark for relational gratification.

Men with the (Alpha) capacity to meet the raw, feral, demands of women’s Hypergamy are increasingly rare, and thanks to the incessant progress of feminization are being further pushed to marginalization. The demand for Men who meet women’s increasingly over-estimated sense of Hypergamic worth makes the men women could submit to a precious commodity, and increases further stress the modern sexual market place.

But women want to be submissive –preferably to the dominant Man qualified to quell her Hypergamy, but in his absence (thanks to mass feminization) substitutes needed to be created. One of the most important points doubters of the Feminine Imperative need to understand is that every social dynamic must work to the benefit of the feminine. When we observe modern social variances on traditional themes, understand that these are modification intended to ‘re-provide’ women with a previous benefit lost due to the distortion of feminine primacy. No men around to provide that masculine dominance? Turn women into men.

Enter the Hyenas

One thing you’ll notice amongst the majority of homosexual couples is an inherent hierarchy of dominance. With all the debate about gay marriage and civil rights these days, I find it fascinating that a subculture founded on non-traditional values, to the point of  subverting them, would demand with such fervor to participate in one of “traditional society’s” most traditional institutions – marriage. Even homosexuals want that heterosexual, interpersonal social structure.

For all of the sermonizing about the want for egalitarian equality, the observable establishing dynamic is still one of a dominant and a submissive partner in a monogamous framework. As our collective gender identities become more homogenized, the role of whom will play the part of dom and sub becomes based upon who better has the stronger personality to live that role out.

Combine this with a collective social consciousness that, by default, puts men into a position of masculine ridicule, and you get the now stereotypical ‘whipped’ husband seeking his dominant wife’s permission as part of his internalized sense of identity. You also see the homosexual woman ‘worshiping’ her dominant partner – a partner more hypergamy-satisfyingly masculine than any man she’s ever encountered, or ever had the capacity to attract. We see the ‘tough bitch’ fearlessly making demands of her female (and male) subordinates that would be grounds for harassment were a man to issue them.

The Meta-Shit Test

We have a society based on presupposed male incompetence, but women still want the hypergamic satisfaction of submissiveness that men should provide for them. It’s in their fantasies. Women’s literature from classical antiquity to modernity is characterized by a want for masculine dominance.

This is the great social shit test of our time. In spite of a world arrayed against him, a Man needs the fearlessness of purpose to pass what has become a meta-scale test of hypergamy. The provisioning, support, emotional investment, and security a man could establish that used to buffer Hypergamy are all ancillary to satisfying Hypergamy now. Feminization has seen to it that in defying its purpose you are identified as being less than a man, but still challenges men to be Men by defying it.

Leave a Reply

  Subscribe  
Notify of
walawala
Guest
walawala

Interesting post. I’d like to share that the girl I successfully gamed is a tall, sexy ballerina. She regularly tells me “I want someone strong” and loves being totally dominated despite her otherwise sweet, girly public persona. But over the last 2 weeks I was sick and tired from my trials. She wanted to come over and made that clear. I said, “You take too much energy right now….” and basically went home without banging her. The power of NOT banging a girl, is more intense than the power of dominating her in bed. She now cannot wait to meet… Read more »

Heywood Jablome
Guest

Feminized society is doomed to collapse. Let it burn.

Aries
Guest

Man THIS is HOT FIRE. Unique hidden truths exposed and explained. This is what we need in the world.

NOT Postmasculine, that is a complete regression for the manosphere. We should actively attempt to distance ourselves from those foolish idealists on that website.

Ed UK
Guest
Ed UK

Not related to this post, but from an old one of yours I came across the film Blue Valentine…my god the red pill is hard to swallow.

Still, just wanted thanks for all your writings Rollo, so glad that I’ve found them/the community and am finally on the road to unplugging before I got myself into a relationship doomed to fail.

Keep up the goof work man, probably the most insightful, well written and intelligent blog I read.

HHH
Guest
HHH

Another thing to remember about gays and lesbians is because they’ve hit the reset button on their sexuality, it’s easier for them to then take up Dom or Fem positions as they like without fear the judgement of society. Anybody who would judge that choice is going to disapprove of their lifestyle anyway, so their opinion is dismissed out of hand. As you point out, for this reason, gays and lesbians often understand traditional gender roles better than many breeders because they’ve essetionally escaped societies gender defining and their hind brains are now back to a natural state instead of… Read more »

BC
Guest
BC

Fantastic post. We see the ‘tough bitch’ fearlessly making demands of her female (and male) subordinates that would be grounds for harassment were a man to issue them. Because the ‘tough bitch’ literally has no fear, that is to say no need to fear. A woman in that situation is 99.99% legally immune, hence the fearlessness, which just further reinforces the dominance. Conversely, an insufficiently alpha (YMMV) man is 99.99% legally precarious. a Man needs the fearlessness of purpose to pass what has become a meta-scale test of hypergamy. The provisioning, support, emotional investment, and security a man could establish… Read more »

Peregrine John
Guest
Peregrine John

I was thinking something very similar to HHH’s observation: Women are trained to reject and fear men’s dominance on the conscious level (what passes for thought in so many) but crave the dynamic in every other aspect of their being. Having refused themselves the usual natural source of satisfaction, they must find it elsewhere. As usual, the irony escapes them at every level.

Leap of a Beta
Guest

You’re partially ignoring the original question. Or maybe just breaking it down into men vs women dynamics instead of women with women. To this part of his question: “In the workplace, I find women submit to other female managers very easily and sometimes even voluntarily, but when a man is manager they play a lot of power games to challenge/question his authority.” To which you said: Masculinity paired with a vagina however is the only legitimate form of masculinity acknowledged. and this When we observe modern social variances on traditional themes, understand that these are modification intended to ‘re-provide’ women… Read more »

ttt
Guest
ttt

Another awesome post.

One question, or should I say a humble request if you find the time: You keep talking about the demise of the alpha in some sort. Maybe you could write a longer post about how us men could behave more like we “should” or really want to be?

earl
Guest

One of feminism’s main goals was to turn us all into lesbians. Some hetero marriage reflect this greatly.

Joe Blow
Guest
Joe Blow

Male fantasies notwithstanding, a solid majority of the lesbians I’ve known are fucked in the head to one extent or another, and their relationships tend to look really abusive/psycho to an outsider. .

Fred Flange the Munificent
Guest
Fred Flange the Munificent

This dom/sub division comes out in parenting done by stable gay couples. Over time one partner NATURALLY assumes the nurturing (maternal) role; the other takes on the disciplinary (male) role. Prof. David Popenoe of Rutgers first discovered it (“Life Without Father”). Living in a place with a large gay-coupled population, I can confirm with my own eyes this is what I’ve seen over the years. I will venture a different prediction: as gay marrieds start to divorce for the same stupid reasons we straights do, look for more cases of divorce being filed due to “gendered role oppression”, where the… Read more »

D-Man
Guest
D-Man

Nicely exposed hypocrisy.

It takes a concerted effort to swim against the current. Society openly wants to make us its bitches, and women secretly want us to make them ours.

Both dynamics require energy.

I’ve experienced similar, wala. What some women in relationships don’t seem to realize – when they seem bent on prodding and shit-testing a guy like me who has been pretty thoroughly gutted in the past – is that at some point, I just don’t give a fuck any more.

tilikum
Guest
tilikum

i’ve never met a real lesbian *shrug*, just women not getting what they need.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

We haven’t had a very collective notion of, these are our children. We have to break through our private idea that children belong to their parents, or children belong to their families, and recognize that children belong to whole communities. This (out of context) quote was from Melissa Harris-Perry. I don’t necessarily agree or disagree with her on differing points, but this concept is a perfect example of what I was getting at in this post. The media is already making hay about it as some socialist under-message, but that’s the easy-to-digest answer. The greater proposition is exactly what I’ve… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

You mean commercials like this are teaching our children that men are stupid and useless? I’m not buying it…. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iymBRSUfz9U The shorter version of this plays all day long on what seems like every channel on Directtv and is essentially all of the “dad is an idiot” bits condensed into 30 seconds. Lets count how many jabs can be taken at men or masculinity in the course of a minute: :10- dad is a fatass :13- dad doesn’t know how to communicate (subtext- female genie really does understand but she is taunting him, dad is the punchline) :17- even the… Read more »

D-Man
Guest
D-Man

The ending should be dad bending the genie over the hood of the car…

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

Back when I owned a retail store we had more than our fair share of lesbian couples come through the door.

I always got a kick out of the couples where the “man” of the relationship thought he was a street thug with a buzz cut, taped up tits and neck tattoo. And every now and then the girly lesbo was reasonably feminine and attractive.

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

Brain fart- :43 isn’t a metaphor…..

boxsterpaul
Guest

Rollo, “egalitarian equalist doctrine” = The Athena Doctrine. “In the workplace, I find women submit to other female managers very easily and sometimes even voluntarily, but when a man is manager they play a lot of power games to challenge/question his authority. Is this because of public shaming from the figure of woman following a man, so women feel more free to show her submissive side when it is toward a woman and not a man ?” -Burroughs I have seen this in the past, never really made note of it until this post. It is interesting because this is… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Guest
Tam the Bam

Entirely underwrite what BC stated. The guy’s observation or hypothesis “In the workplace, I find women submit to other female managers very easily and sometimes even voluntarily, but when a man is manager they play a lot of power games to challenge/question his authority.” struck a false note with me, though. Quite the contrary, I have only seen the most epic rucks for unmerited status when women are under a (competent) female boss. One memorable one: a project (technical) was funding-sourced, research-designed and set up by a longtime female colleague (with a face like the back end of a bus,… Read more »

Inane Rambler
Guest

Aries, I used to follow Post-Masculine, but I left not because of its rejection of the Red Pill, but because his articles are entirely mental masturbation.

At least Rollo’s posts are based on observation, things he sees. Mark’s posts are based on cribbing the work of others and passing it off as his own.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Speaking of submission, grab your popcorn fellas, the feminine imperative is about to eat one of its own:

http://www.today.com/news/gabby-reece-women-being-submissive-sign-strength-1C9322181

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Ne-Yo’s ideal woman is an executive businessman.

idunno
Guest
idunno

Gays have validated confidence just like races other than white people have externally validated confidence. The most useful tool the left has is pretending the straight, white male power structure still exists.

William
Guest
William

Finally realized this when watching an episode of Oprah, about married women had had affairs with a woman (Jackie) who owned the gym they used. What i first noticed was Jackie’s appearance and the appearance of the husband of one of her lovers, she was fit whie the husband was dumpy. One of the woman who had an affair with Jackie was on the show with her husband, and she told Oprah what drew her to Jackie. Those qualities were what woman look for in a man. I finally got it when Jackie said this about woman being attracted to… Read more »

Treize
Guest
Treize

I’ve recently experienced the craziness of this world we live in. Just broken up with my girlfriend of 3 years. Her behaviour towards the end was just unbearable; I eventually broke up with her after her coming on a night out and getting all angry with me and storming off for no reason at the time, only to ‘apologise’ next day saying it was because She felt se did all the chasing and because I wasn’t facilitating her moving out of her family home by wanting to move in with her. I’m 26 and have worked hard on having my… Read more »

introvertsuccess
Guest

Becoming aware of the Meta-Test of society was probably the 3rd big pill I swallowed. (1st was game, 2nd was hypergamy).

feral1404
Guest
feral1404

Treize, It gets easier the more alpha you get. In your very next relationship, state up front and make it clear that you call the shots, you are the man and she is the woman, and that you lead, she follows. If she can’t hack it, she can walk. No need to be rude, just say it straight and mean it. Treat it exactly like a job application, as that’s precisely what a relationship is. If she fucks up, ‘next’ her without a second thought. If she can’t handle this, break it off and find another girl on the girl… Read more »

Sherlock
Guest
Sherlock

“At least Rollo’s posts are based on observation, things he sees. Mark’s posts are based on cribbing the work of others and passing it off as his own.” He claims he was the first PUA to teach the vulnverability concept he talks about all the time yet Juggler (Wayne Elise) and the Auhtentic Man Programe have been teaching that since at least 2006 and in the case of Juggler, probably before. At his old forum Juggler had Alpha is not being afraid to be weak or something along those lines permanently written underneath his posts (what is it called in… Read more »

Sherlock
Guest
Sherlock

Leap that was a VERY interesting post. Keep up with reading the classics.

APL
Guest
APL

feral1404: “break it off and find another girl on the girl tree.”

I laughed at that.

Leap of a Beta
Guest

@ Sherlock Will do. On your note of vulnerability and the classics – I was captivated by how…. alive within their emotions, men and women were in Iliad and Odyssey. Men opening weeping. Raging. Praising. Cursing. These men LIVED. In every sense. They let emotions pass through them and then forgot about them. The only time they would hold on to something is if their honor or that of their brotherhood, tribe, nation, were slighted. Even then, holding on to revenge for too long quickly became feminine or something to be blamed on the Gods. A man was certainly never… Read more »

Treize
Guest
Treize

@feral1404

Thanks man. It may not have ended well but the value of being able to discern what is acceptable behaviour to me in future relationships now is priceless. Onwards and upwards it is.

piercedhead
Guest
piercedhead

Females of many animals form into all-female herds – and the herd has a natural hierarchy. Horses have the dominant mare. Chickens have their well-known pecking order. Prisons always have a queen bee. Women are not so much looking for a man to be submissive to, but a hierarchy to slot into. Once they find their place, they’re usually content with it – it is their very identity. Schopenhauer summed it up nicely when he described ‘ladies of rank’, observing how insufferably rude they were in dealing with their female inferiors. There was none of that affable show of equality… Read more »

b-166-er
Guest
b-166-er

Rollo Tomassi

We haven’t had a very collective notion of, these are our children. We have to break through our private idea that children belong to their parents, or children belong to their families, and recognize that children belong to whole communities.

This (out of context) quote was from Melissa Harris-Perry.
————————————————————————–
Never trust a black woman with 3 slave names.

The Other Jim
Guest
The Other Jim

“With all the debate about gay marriage and civil rights these days, I find it fascinating that a subculture founded on non-traditional values, to the point of subverting them, would demand with such fervor to participate in one of “traditional society’s” most traditional institutions – marriage. Even homosexuals want that heterosexual, interpersonal social structure.” Everything else I agree with but not this bit. Perhaps some Gays do want marriage for that social structure but like “hate speech” laws it’s really not about the thing, but something else. “Hate Speech” laws really aren’t about protecting Gays, Women, or Muslims. More often… Read more »

Immediate
Guest
Immediate

“Feminization has seen to it that in defying its purpose you are identified as being less than a man, but still challenges men to be Men by defying it.”

Damn, Rollo…DAMN! That’s mind blowing, but strikes a very true note.

Highwasp
Guest

Lesbians have are literally screwed in the head. They have a dick firmly planted between their ears ~ “Dick Brain” ~ if you will, AND at the same time they hold the “ace in the hole” with a vagina between their legs. They are therefore aggressive and can inflict real damage. If you, a ‘bio-male’ retaliates effectively then they can call in the victim card and have you arrested as a ‘bio-woman’. Watch your back around them critters.

Highwasp
Guest

I guess that could have been written more clear – if you as a bio-male retaliate effectively to the dick brain lesbo, then she, as a bio-woman can call in the victim card and have you arrested for assaulting a woman…

Jimmy B
Guest
Jimmy B

This is the best article you have ever thrown down. This is exactly what I needed to hear tonight. Thank you!!!

Mebus
Guest
Mebus

I’m reading The Rational Male for about a year now, and I’m still very taken by the intelligent discourse on the matter of inter- and intragender relations presented here. It has opened my eyes, and continues to do so. While modern academia promotes itself as the sole bastion of truth, objectivity, and rationality, you would be hard pressed to find anyone in those feminine imperative-serving ivory towers to discuss these topics in an objective, scientific way. Instead, it has utterly degraded, granting tenure to people like Hugo Schwyzer, and giving them expert status on the matter. What a charade it… Read more »

biff
Guest
biff

“For all of the sermonizing about the want for egalitarian equality, the observable establishing dynamic is still one of a dominant and a submissive partner in a monogamous framework. As our collective gender identities become more homogenized, the role of whom will play the part of dom and sub becomes based upon who better has the stronger personality to live that role out.” This is brilliant I must say. Hadn’t realy given much thought to the implications of roles in homosexual relationships before. But this (and I realize it’s quoted): “In the workplace, I find women submit to other female… Read more »

Underdog
Guest
Underdog

Amazing post, Rollo.

Regarding PostMasculine, I read a good amount of articles on there and found the guy’s perspective to be highly femcentric. It’s no wonder that Susan tends to refer to his stuff and uses him as an example of “that one PUA who saw the emptiness of being a PUA”.

Jon
Guest
Jon

While watching Wall-E the other day I was thinking the same thing. Powerful female, clueless male.

Underdog
Guest
Underdog

“Feminization has seen to it that in defying its purpose you are identified as being less than a man, but still challenges men to be Men by defying it.”

This is just another variation of “I want a nice guy but I will only fuck bad boys”. The core of the red pill. Basically the only insight you will ever get from the feminine perspective is how to be a beta and get further stuck in the matrix. When I listen to women and their man-up shaming tactics nowadays all I hear is “dominate me, dominate me, please please dominate me”.

Underdog
Guest
Underdog

Everything about women — from their appearance to what comes out of their mouths — is a giant shit test designed to measure your dominance and suitability as a sperm donor. And it’s an uphill battle because nowadays society is in on it, too. Everyday I wake up and feel like one lucky s.o.b for discovering game and the manosphere at the age of 26.

Jeremy
Guest
Jeremy

I would argue that men are being given a no-solution problem to solve. If we accept that women prefer to be dominated by true masculinity, then we have to accept that socio-economic equality of the sexes is nonsense on its face. In order to be dominant, you have to have more resources, options, capabilities, ambition, intelligence, etc… than that which you are dominating. In order to have true social *equality* between male and female, all of that “inequality” must go away. The argument that men are being given a societal shit-test is incompatible with the notion that the sexes should… Read more »

madvillain
Guest
madvillain

Part of the feminine imperative is to pander to women’s fragile sense of self-worth. There have been a few articles in the manopshere about the modern female’s inflated sense of self-esteem, but i suspect this self-esteem doesn’t run very deep. They know on some level that society panders to them, compliments them on trivial shit etc, simply because they’re female and need that extra boost. Uncomfortable red pill thought: Females often feel inadequate to males in general. Offensive red pill thought: You know how parents overly compliment their children when they bring home some ugly art from school? And then… Read more »

madvillain
Guest
madvillain

Oh, and great post as usual Rollo (and that’s not pandering lol). So many quotable sentences and paragraphs. Like: “Feminization has seen to it that in defying its purpose you are identified as being less than a man, but still challenges men to be Men by defying it.” A man is freed from that Catch-22 by liberating himself from the feminine imperative mentally and emotionally. Guilt is one of their primary weapons. That you should feel a generalized guilt simply for being a man. Your existence in itself is sexist until you prove otherwise by being obedient to the FI.… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Guest
Tam the Bam

So if I’ve read you right Jeremy, the current demands are logically and most importantly, mathematically self-defeating?

Jeremy
Guest
Jeremy

@Tam,

How do you achieve dominance over that which you are trying to be equal to?

That which is greater than cannot be equal to, they are mutually exclusive conditions. You can be greater than OR equal to, but not greater than AND equal to.

Different T
Guest
Different T

The provisioning, support, emotional investment, and security a man could establish that used to buffer Hypergamy are all ancillary to satisfying Hypergamy now.

By what metric were these things simply “buffers?” What is your definition of “hypergamy” and “alpha”?

———–

The argument that men are being given a societal shit-test is incompatible with the notion that the sexes should be equal. The argument that women want equality is incompatible with hypergamy.

Correct. Consider that the “egalitarian doctrine” is simply marketing for what those ideologies actually create.

Again, a revaluation of “hypergamy.”

Mavellian
Guest

Reblogged this on Notes Of Man and commented:
Interesting observation and very true. Strong critical points also made. Remember, although most women say they do not want a dominant head strong man, it is a lie. Do not be afraid to stick with your manhood. Remain strong.

Mark Minter
Guest

This is from the BBC. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22076692 “The University of Colorado team discovered that many breast cancers possess androgen receptors on their surface, and that male hormones like testosterone fuel the tumour’s growth. Drugs to block these receptors could offer another way to fight the disease, a meeting of the American Association for Cancer Research heard. ” I mentioned this on this blog. That modern life was fueling an increase in testosterone in women, and possibly researchers would make connection between increased testosterone and breast cancer. And two weeks later, here it is. Researchers finding that all cancer is caused by… Read more »

Novaseeker
Guest

The thing about lesbians (and a fair number of gay relationships) is that there is a marked difference, as we would expect, depending on the “role”. That is, generally the “tops” or “doms” have attractional vectors like straight men (i.e., initially appearance based), while the “subs” have attractional vectors that are like straight women (i.e., initially persona based). This isn’t really reflected in a similar way in gay male couples. If you talk to a butch lesbian, she’ll tell you that she is attracted to women visually first, very much the way a man is. She wants to own their… Read more »

Novaseeker
Guest

I would argue that men are being given a no-solution problem to solve. If we accept that women prefer to be dominated by true masculinity, then we have to accept that socio-economic equality of the sexes is nonsense on its face. In order to be dominant, you have to have more resources, options, capabilities, ambition, intelligence, etc… than that which you are dominating. In order to have true social *equality* between male and female, all of that “inequality” must go away. The argument that men are being given a societal shit-test is incompatible with the notion that the sexes should… Read more »

Different T
Guest
Different T

@NS

Could you offer a definition of “hypergamy?”

Is this a close approximation of your definition:

Hypergamy states that exclusively females seek to mate across and up a single hierarchy of (an unrigorous amalgamation of behaviors which indicate the possession of certain qualities referred to as) social dominance.

Gilligan
Guest
Gilligan

One thing: Lesbians are the corporate gold of the workplace these days. Most women want to check out and raise kids as soon as possible, especially after getting a decade or so taste of the workplace. Lesbians however fill two slots for companies: female and gay. Plus as they don’t have kids, they’re ripe for a promotion. A big company can proudly claim it has a certain percentage of female and gay managers. Of course, what they don’t say is that it’s the same person.

KK
Guest
KK

That’s a top notch pair of comments, Novaseeker. I have observed similar butch/femme dynamics in lesbian couples, and you hit it out of the park with that description.

I get the sense that back-and-forth between men and women is at some places and some circles so toxic that at times there’s less friction to develop an outlet for your sexual drive through a same-sex partner than through a healthy heterosexual model. Nerd/loser homophilia would be the male manifestation of this effect.

Jeremy
Guest
Jeremy

The way that “equality” and “hypergamy” hang together is that hypergamy is the relationship between women and the men who are “really” dominant, while equality (at best) is the relationship between women and the rest of the men (the average guys). Men are not all equally dominant, and never have been. That’s a great comment. I’m left with this next sentence: Women likely *never* liked submitting to men who were being themselves dominated by other men, but they put up with this because they had no better alternative. … stuck in my brain. What you are essentially saying is that… Read more »

The Narrator
Guest
The Narrator

Madvillain, Adhering to an autonomosly chosen objective moral standard that is not influenced by the FI makes one impervious to that guilt. Why should I feel guilty about something I don’t think is objectively blameworthy? The problem is that Christian men have had their doctrine corrupted by the influence of the FI. Red pill men who have defined their morality based solely on Christianity feel they have nowhere to turn but nihilism when made aware of female nature. Mark Minter, Brilliant observation with regards to the negative health effects of testosterone in women. I hope your son is coping well.… Read more »

Novaseeker
Guest

What you are essentially saying is that the female reproductive strategy (that is, to always seek the most dominant male to reproduce with) is destructive to any species seeking to increase in population. Population saves species from going extinct, it saved humans once before (barely) during a previous ice-age, it will likely save us again during the next one. In some ways, yes, but one important thing to keep in mind is that the expression of hypergamy we see today isn’t really “natural”, but is hyper-hypergamy fueled by technological advancements that both removed (or largely mitigated/made a question of choice)… Read more »

Novaseeker
Guest

“removed from being expressed”. What it was supposed to say.

imnobody
Guest

Novaseeker, as usual, nails it. When a feminist woman rambles about equality, it means “I want to be equal to every man except the ones I want to mate, which must be better than me” (this is usually phrased as “I need to admire a man to be attracted to him”).IOW, equality for the beta but not for the alpha. For the alpha, hypergamy. So I think that the female reproductive strategy is fine when it is subject to its natural checks. The issue is that the natural checks have been removed by technology. Yes and, as Rollo has commented,… Read more »

Mark Minter
Guest

GLPiggy had a post that was inferential about this. He cited a study that compared Karelia and Finland. Karelia is the region of Russia that borders Finland. The populations are genetically similar, Nordics. But the nature of both the terrain, and that xenophobic nature of Russian society for like forever, had lead to separation of the two groups since probably 1500 ad. Finland has like 10 times more type 1 diabetes which leads to the immune system attacking itself and leading to allergies. The key assumption was that Karelia is a farm district and the population is exposed to germ… Read more »

Mark Minter
Guest

I would also add “where in South America is feminism the strongest and is catching on more readily?” Brazil and Argentina. What do those places have that Colombia, Peru, Ecuador do not in their history? Massive amounts of immigration from Western Europe. Argentina was close second to America. Brazil, from Rio on south is almost entirely European. Both have had massive contact with Europe in the form of trade and investment. European investors came to both in the late 19th and early 20th centuries for both agricultural and raw material investments. And both have huge cities. Both Buenos Aires and… Read more »

Novaseeker
Guest

And this is the main beef I have with the manosphere. When I was a kid, my country was in the so-called patriarchy. And I have first-hand evidence that it is much better for a man to be alone than to be married to a wife because women cannot support themselves. For an individual man and woman, sure. But that isn’t the real question. Well, there are two questions, really. The first is “what is the best for me personally?”, and the second is “what is the best for the society/civilization/future?”. We have control over ourselves to a much greater… Read more »

learning_as_i_go
Guest
learning_as_i_go

I remember when I watched, very briefly, situational comedies on television. They were awful. The first step to humor is understanding (hence why you “get” a joke). I did not understand that these were supposed to be hard-hitting, feminist, egalitarian idealizations until much later as, to me, the premise was changing, and exaggerating, the generally accepted roles (take for example how funny the idea sounds that lab mice were actually experimenting on the scientists, or really wanted to rule the world!) Which, in itself, I understood; but I wasn’t laughing more than I was groaning because the gag had long… Read more »

Different T
Guest
Different T

@NS So, contrary to what some guys think, I don’t think what we are seeing now is natural female behavior, but rather the behavior that results from having the natural checks on the most extreme expression of that behavior removed. The spirit of your post is excellent. Eh, I think Rollo has defined it somewhere here — I’m sure he has. I’d rather not get into a definitional discussion about it, as it is rehashing old ground that has been hashed and rehashed on many blogs by now. Consider that the definition used is vital to the integrity and predictive… Read more »

trackback

[…] Rollo Tomassi from The Rational Male saw this interview and noted: […]

Novaseeker
Guest

Consider that the definition used is vital to the integrity and predictive power of the model. From what can be gathered and implied, the current definition (or lack thereof) only applies to a very short period of history. Considering “hypergamy” is supposed to be a “biological dynamic,” the manosphere has willingly bastardized one of its core concepts. Not really, no. Pointing out that the momentum of a car will take it further than it did yesterday because today there is no wall blocking it from doing so does not undermine the idea that momentum existed yesterday as much a today,… Read more »

Georgia Boy
Guest
Georgia Boy

My girl used to work with a lesbian couple (at least, we’re pretty sure) and is still faceborg friends with them. First one is a big woman (in height, big boned, and fairly overweight) but dresses feminine and long straight hair and has a reserved personality, she is quiet about the whole thing. The other is more conventionally pretty though only really a 5 or maybe 6, a little more outgoing but still not really extraverted, still dresses feminine in flowery blouses but wears pants, really curly shoulder length hair, she posts all kinds of inside jokes about narwhales and… Read more »

Marellus
Guest

@Tam the Bam. IGreat story. ***************************************************************************************** @Learning-as-I-go Good luck with everything. ***************************************************************************************** @Mark Minter From this book : The female chacma about to give birth often separated herself from the troop and selected some secluded spot for the purpose. We noticed on several occasions that where she was accompanied by an independent older offspring she would persistently and often cruelly drive it away from her a few days previously. This always served as a pure indication that the birth was about to take place. The degree of pain accompanying birth varied greatly. In some individuals – even a first pregnancy… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Guest
Tam the Bam

First off I have to say I am very saddened and dismayed by the terrible crime in Boston today. I’m following it on the radio, and am very struck by the calm and serious demeanour of the citizens being jumped by reporters on the street, and how organized the reaction seems to be. The higher officials sound slightly stressed, but that’s understandable. A horrible crime. Marcellus, I know, “Cool story bro”, tl;dr. I felt like spewing a load of verite up because to this day I still have no fucking clue as to what the hell happened there (or the… Read more »

Different T
Guest
Different T

@NS

Can you state a definition? Is the one given here a close approximation?

You make an analogy without stating the definition of the concept being discussed.

Marellus
Guest

Tam the Bam,

Years ago I read a book where the author said, that some of the most vicious plotting occurs between women in fashion magazines. When there’s a new editor, you can bet that there will be overhaul of senior positions as well.

From your story, it seems that this is not limited to that world.

gunslingergregi
Guest
gunslingergregi

Novaseeker
The current technological innovations that have spurred the social changes of the past few decades (sexual revolution, female economic independence both resulting from the conflux of control over reproduction and the rise of non-physical labor to the forefront of the economy) have provided potent fuel for the rise of a hyper version of hypergamy. Hypergamy on steroids.””””””””

dude if there was no welfare it would be an entirely different ballgame.

Different T
Guest
Different T

@ gunslingergregi

Welfare, deficit spending, artificially low interest rates, imported cheap labor, cheap imported goods, labor law, labor structure (rise of Bureaucracy) and a number of other things.

But for now, can you let NS stay on the definition point?

gunslingergregi
Guest
gunslingergregi

In an era when Hypergamy has been given free reign, it is no longer men’s provisioning that dictates her predisposition to want to be a submissive partner in their relationships. To an increasingly larger degree women no longer depend upon men for the provisioning, security and emotional support that used to insure against their innate Hypergamous impulses. ””””””””””’ there is no equality without the masssiiiivveeeeee transfer of wealth from men to woman we are not living in a place where it could actually be equal or where people have the same drawbacks to decisions they make just like a lot… Read more »

gunslingergregi
Guest
gunslingergregi

This is the great social shit test of our time. In spite of a world arrayed against him, a Man needs the fearlessness of purpose to pass what has become a meta-scale test of hypergamy. ””””””’

Take your que from the corporations and see what they get young nubile woman to do for them
tons of woman out there playing the servant and doing it for peanuts
our job as men is to make sure we at least get that much out of our woman he he he

DrJohno
Guest
DrJohno

This might be off topic, but I couldn’t help sharing it with you Rational Males. This is more like a confession from an anonymous early 30s woman whose relationship status I ignore, and I came across in a popular site where girls ask guys questions: “I want to make love to him so bad that every time I see him or think of him I get butterflies. I want to please him so bad it’s driving me crazy. I need him, I want him to crave me. I’m just dying for him to touch me and kiss me. I want… Read more »

Tam the Bam
Guest
Tam the Bam

DrJohno“I want to sit on him … I want him to feel, all my sadness … All my pain … all the anger. I want him to scream … I want to let him feel it all … and I want him to get teary eyes … I wanna be the one who makes him cry …” Gott in Himmel! Walk away, slowly at first, then when he’s out of range of being brought down by a leap and a bite to the neck, run. Run like the wind. A passport would be handy. This woman would be well advised… Read more »

Kate
Guest
Kate

I don’t know why she’d want him to feel sadness and pain and make him cry (possibly he’s hurt her and she wants him to understand that and then forgive him), but the backrubs, meals, sex stuff isn’t bad, is it? Sounds to me like a woman in love with a married man 🙁

Jeremy
Guest
Jeremy

@DrJohno

Sounds like a woman with oneitis to me. I don’t see a question there in that woman’s mental self-touching monologue. What was she expecting to gain from the men who answer?

itsme
Guest
itsme

I don’t know why she’d want him to feel sadness and pain and make him cry

because she’s a woman. she believes that the rollercoaster of emotions that she craves is what men crave as well.

itsme
Guest
itsme

also, she’s probably bpd and was off her meds.

Tam the Bam
Guest
Tam the Bam

Kate:- “I don’t know why she’d want him to feel sadness and pain and make him cry (possibly he’s hurt her and she wants him to understand that and then forgive him)” So this (alpha widow?) wants to downgrade her obscure object of desire from the casually “cruel” and aloof (aka cheerfully oblivious) man who engendered all those desperate tingles, to a weeping, humiliated beta-minus? Who she then proposes to mother slightly, with a bit of ‘ow’s yer father, no doubt conditional on complete compliance. “Right words to give him motivation” indeed. What is he, like eight years old? Man… Read more »

Kate
Guest
Kate

lol- always fun to see things from the other side 🙂

Tilikum
Guest
Tilikum

different T is sooooo pissed that the imperative is being exposed you can taste it. See the issue sweetie, is that you cant leave a man to sit down and quantify a system or he will map it, exploit it, and profit given enough time. Now an alpha wont really share knowledge because its competitive, but the BOG’s that infect these sites …oh yeah they will. Delicious. the same men you despise as mates are helping each other change and recognizing the venus flytrap for what it is and it is the most frightening thing that can happen to womanhood.… Read more »

141
Guest
141

The feminine imperative exists because society is feminine. Have you noticed that the words society and social look the same? Have you noticed that women are far more social than men? Have you noticed that women are followers and men are leaders and loners? Have you noticed that religions attract more women than men? Have you noticed that liberals(feminine philosophy) live in the most dense cities, while the conservatives(masculine philosophy) live in the country? In regards to television/commercials/movies/books/ etc., these are all mediums of storytelling. And stories revolve around conflict. Good guy vs. bad guy, over and over and over… Read more »

orion
Guest
orion

Rollo, I wanted to thank you for your insights, especially The “Operative Social Conventions” series. I come from the evopsych angle so it never occured to me that what I thought was self evident, were actually verbalized female instincts, which, by their very nature are designed to subjugate male mating instincts. That is actually beyond important to me, because if I had to choose between having pussy served on a platter and not knowing where it went horribly, horribly wrong and being celibate and understanding what is actually happening, I would choose the latter. * Now, on to follow Mark… Read more »

John Rambo
Guest
John Rambo

Arianna Pattek, a racist, man-hating feminist bitch
http://www.crimesagainstfathers.com/australia/Forums2/tabid/369/forumid/232/threadid/6149/scope/posts/Default.aspx

In the above link, you will find evidence of her committing the CRIME of discrimination based on a man’s race.

I have included her personal email, the email of her academic advisor, link to her Facebook account, link to her two blogs, and her pictures as well.

I suggest you men write to her through her email, Facebook, and blogs, and tell her that you are reporting her for the CRIME of discrimination against men.

American women are really evil bitches.

Jeremy
Guest
Jeremy

@John Rambo

Uh, the second paragraph of that ladies post, she essentially opens herself up to a major class-action discrimination lawsuit. How can that be real?

Sherlock
Guest
Sherlock

The feminine imperative mentioned in Harvard Business Review:

http://blogs.hbr.org/hbr/hbreditors/2013/03/whats_worse_glass_ceilings_or_glass_cellars.html

Durasim
Guest
Durasim

Anyone remember the term “wifey”? I always thought of it as some diminutive or condescending term that Irish peasant men would call their wives. Today, few man would dare call any woman by that term, not even their actual wives.

However, I have noticed that “wifey” is now a trendy term used by lesbians. Specifically, it is usually how the “butch” masculine partner refers to the “femme” submissive partner. They seem to enjoy borrowing nineteenth century working class male mannerisms for literal or ironic purposes.

trackback

[…] It’s kind of a shame that a lot of Game proponents would rather avoid how a larger understanding of Game is confirmed in homosexual relations. I’ll admit to some hesitancy as well, however one of my earliest posts, Sexual Fluidity, addressed exactly how an evolved  template for heterosexual gender roles is still the applicable one in homosexual relations. I also defined the dominant / submissive dynamic all intergender relations establish in Master & Servant. […]

Tarnished
Guest

This is a very interesting post, and for the most part I agree completely with it, but I noticed you make no distinction between locations in the relationship, aka the public sphere of the world and the private sphere of the bedroom. Why is this? I’d think that there is a huge difference in how men and women act in their own homes vs at work/out. Example: I’m physically a female, but have gender dysphoria (though everyone just assumes I’m merely a tomboy). When doing things with my male FwB, I’m definitely in the dominant position even though he’s a… Read more »

LAX
Guest
LAX

And another Question: Where do you get those – IMO stupid – ideas from? Sorry, but I know enough women who would give you a kick to the balls if you acted like some old fashioned macho kind of guy…and they would be right to do so. The only women that really want this kind of submissive being are those that have been brought up this way by their parents (I know a few of those, too – needy, insecure beings that surrender their very being to you and can’t be alone (if you leave them they latch on to… Read more »