After last week’s essay on the idealistic nature of the Quality Woman I had an interesting question arise:
Rollo,
I know you like to divorce humanistic and moralistic variables as much as possible from your blog and I understand why. I would like you to explain this point:
“There would be a contingent of moral absolutists who would declare that it’s men, by virtue of their great moral self-awareness and thus responsibility, who need to enforce controls over the socially destructive nature of hypergamy. Ironically this moral impetus is yet one more control itself to ensure hypergamy works to the benefit of those who subscribe to their moral absolutism.”I understand you say that hypergamy doesn’t care about moral imperatives but how would the attempt of men to enforce controls over it (which I’m not sure is entirely possible) backfire on those men?
As is my standing rule, I strive for a separation of moralism and rationality on this blog, up to the point where the topic crosses over into a better rational understanding of a particular dynamic by addressing the moral element of it – this is one such an occasion.
What I’m saying is that, in the context of hypergamy, moral absolutism, religiosity, secular appeals to ‘higher self’ ideals,..hell, even white knightery, are all founded in a desire to control hypergamy to better fit their subscriber’s perceived strengths and weaknesses in coping with hypergamy.
I’ve written in several blog posts about how the feminine imperative would ideally strive for a set of controlled environmental conditions that favor’s women’s capacity to optimally satisfy their hypergamic natures (i.e. feminism, feminine-bastardized chivalry, etc). As impossible as this is in a long term sense, the feminine will exhaustively construct social dynamics it thinks change the ‘rules’ to favor hypergamy – lowering the basket to better play the game, etc.
Men given to moral absolute ideals, like blue pill men still plugged in, do something similar in their own mindset, and just like the feminine imperative, find themselves equally disappointed when the Rules don’t change to meet their capacity to play the game. They’ll disqualify women from their definition of ‘quality’ in the same fashion women will disqualify men as ‘misogynists’ when either refuse, deliberately or indifferently, to comply with what their ideal conditions predispose their beliefs for.
Hypergamy isn’t going to change, so if a moralist or a feminist wants to minimize or maximize hypergamy to their benefit, social and psychological schemas need to develop around what serves either the best. This is exactly why white knight beta chumps seek to define what the essence of Alpha should be in terms that best describes themselves. They seek to control hypergamy by redefining hypergamy’s ideal to fit their own description – likewise fem-centrism will seek to redefine masculinity to better fit a hypergamous ideal (Alpha Fucks/Beta Bucks in the same, or in two distinct, definitions of a man).
Conditionally necessitous women will seek to redefine for men what men ‘should’ want in an ideal partner by defining female desirability as it pertains to themselves. Thus we get fat acceptance and a refocusing of women’s intrinsic qualities as what men should prefer rather than the male-hypergamic impulse of men to be aroused by women’s physical appeal.
Control and Synthesis
Now, all of that isn’t an indictment of multiple millennias of human social progress, but rather it’s to reveal the base motivator of that progress.
One of the main issues I see for both genders coming to terms with the reality of Hypergamy is this want for applying humanistic / moral variables into the resolution of hypergamic problems.
In other words, hypergamy doesn’t care about your moral imperatives – it exists with equal efficiency both within and without a moral context.
Hypergamy has been a very uncomfortable truth of human existence since long before we had a formal name for the dynamic. Every inter-gender social convention in human history has been an attempt to either marginalize its influence, or in the case of women, misdirect men from the truth of how their hypergamy, directly or indirectly, compels their most intimate decisions. So pervasive is hypergamy that it had to be evolutionarily sublimated into our subconscious/preconscious minds. The conceptual awareness of hypergamy was so disturbing to the human condition that, in our evolved past, humanity literally selected-for people with the ability to psychologically repress the awareness of it. Thus you get dynamics like the War Brides phenomenon, and while moralistically it’s pretty fucked up, both the men and women who benefit from it simply shrug their shoulders and say everything from “it is what it is” to “it all worked out for God’s glory.”
Our concepts of romance, tenets of religion, even our innate understanding of gender differences, are all manifestations that reflect the human want to anthropomorphize and exercise control over hypergamy. We want to believe our ‘higher’ selves can rise above the physical demands of hypergamy only to have those moral idealizations reflect hypergamy within that idealized context.
agree. Biological and evolutionary functions only. Leave “how it should be” or “how you want it” at the door.
In other words: there’s no escape.
1) MUCH wisdom in this post. This is why I heart your blog. 2) The one thing I have to give props to the Manosphere for is labeling Hypergamy. It’s not a term we’ve used (or even use now) in the PUA community. We understood the concept of women chasing higher-value but we never really got more in-depth than that (since to execute, that’s as much of an understanding of the concept as you need). I like that Hypergamy has been so thoroughly explored here in general because understanding a post like this, where the moral “this idea makes me… Read more »
Point of order – swallowing the red pill doesn’t make a man disregard his absolute insistence on morality, honor and the like. If he’s given to that sort of thinking, he remains oriented that way. He just no longer expects women to uphold those principles, or to care that he values those things. They aren’t even on the radar for the vast majority of women, not in the way men understand those concepts anyhow.
The moral and honorable man, on the other hand, still holds himself and other men to those standards.
@YaReally, Thanks for your contribution and great post. I know you catch some flak at times but I think it’s because you’ve swallowed the red pill more entirely than most, even compared to alot of the ‘red pill’ guys around these parts, and guys don’t like to hear the REALLY uncomfortable truths. Same with Rollo. When I read some posts from these guys there is still an underlying tone of how things ‘ought’ to be, not as they really are. I don’t blame them for being this way, as a life without hope is no life at all for many… Read more »
This pretty much sums up why I believe the “MHRM” and “MGTOW” are doomed to failure. They’re wrestling with the angry god of biomechanics. They don’t care that they have wandered into the same reality-dead-zone that feminists have when they try to readjust society to care for men as it does for women. The movement was ironically at its most effective when it focused almost completely on highlighting the inconsistency with reality in feminism. It all comes down to the rules. You can’t change them, you can only know them and conform to them. Any other reaction constitutes a retreat… Read more »
A white knight beta chump seeking to define what the essence of Alpha should be in terms that best describes himself is seeking to rationalize his SMP failures as being due to his self-defined virtues (i.e., the other party is wrong) instead of his SMV faults. After all, being hated/despised or failing because of one’s virtues feels so much better than having to admit the truth, and fuels the morally superior position of suffering bravely under self-defined injustice.
“Injustice is relatively easy to bear; what stings is justice.” -H. L. Mencken
So Rollo, is hypergammy a partial function of biology? I ask, as being a 55 year old man, with a wife who just turned 50, but still gets approached by 30 ish guys, once her T starts to drop, does her hypergammy go down also?
Re: EE girls. depends. Some men can get girls with higher SMV, while others are banging 7s with increased regularity. If you are a 7 who is regularly banging 5s and 6s in the U.S, being able to ignore all 5s and just mess the occasional 6 while regularly banging 7s sounds like a pretty good deal to me.
@ BC
You’ve nailed it. It’s just male hamsterization at that point. Delicate egos. Like I always say, kill your ego. Then you can truly start to progress.
@ The Karamazov Idea
You’re right it does come down to the rules. But the rules dictate that most men will be losers. This is what makes them uncomfortable and unaccepting of reality. You’re assessment is correct, but it’s too harsh for most to bear.
If all morality stems from our desire to control these forces, begs the question if we are not better individually served letting go of them. Seek the overman ideal. The problem i keep seeing is hypergamy doesnt care if we live in mud huts and kill each other with clubs. These forces unrestrained will have impacts on society. Even just a decade or two ago the meme was the nerd would make good and get the girl, not reality but even that idea dies. My concern is less witn hypergamy, but when the bottom 90% of men decide it’s just… Read more »
Warning. This comment might take a few or four whacks on the space bar to skip over. But I wouldn’t if I were you. I continue to explore the concepts of things I learned at this blog. I am bouncing around sporadically from idea to idea and am having trouble staying focused on any one idea. But I keep getting pulled as much as being due to any lack of mental discipline. I was searching for a study about the lack of congruence and dissonance between physical indicators of arousal in women and their mental perception of arousal. The whole… Read more »
Nice article Rollo.
I have to say though I’ve yet to see this “fat acceptance” that you speak of. It’s widely known that the looks and appearance of a woman is very important to men and I’ve yet to be ridiculed for it. I don’t feel any pressure to accept that fat is good and I don’t feel I ever will because it creates a physical response of disgust in me.
People can try all they want to get fatness accepted but it won’t happen because they are fighting against evolutionary biology.
Seems to me, doing away with the VAWA and the kind of thinking which leads to such foolishness is the way to keep hypergamy in check. A man’s well timed pimp hand will do more then any appeal to morality, law, justice and God. I say that as a God fearing man, who values authority, responsibility etc all. Any behavioral system that counts on women seeing the long term down side of their actions is doomed to fail, while a slap to the face or Han print on the ads is immediate cause effect interaction. Sort of like raising a… Read more »
Very deep post. You’re quite the philosopher.
@Karamazov,
My understanding of MGTOW is really just to seek ultimate happiness and not subject themselves to the feminist State. I don’t think they have any other option but to fully live for themselves.
I don’t see that as doomed to failure, I see that as the only rational response. Fvk and chvk is the only way to happiness in a society that punishes the committed man.
“In other words, hypergamy doesn’t care about your moral imperatives – it exists with equal efficiency both within and without a moral context.”
Are you implying that hypergamy “exists with equal efficiency” in Saudi Arabia and America?
And if you want to get philosophical,
“to define what the essence of Alpha should be in terms that best describes themselves. They seek to control hypergamy by redefining hypergamy’s ideal to fit their own description”
what does your supposed “amorality” say about you?
Hypergamy absolutely “exists with equal efficiency” in America and in Saudi Arabia. In America, we have an overly generous welfare state and lax marriage laws. Women flock to Alphas because they can, and in fact the government subsidizes this/protects women from the economic choices of these actions. Mairrage rates are tiny for low income folks (who do not out earn the welfare state), and birth rates are low. In Saudi Arabia, there is no generous welfare state, but it is legal for men to marry multiple women. Women flock to and marry the most alpha man they can get, even… Read more »
@ Rotten I had a similar initial reaction to yours to Different T’s post. But I think that’s sort of missing the point… “Are you implying that hypergamy “exists with equal efficiency” in Saudi Arabia and America?” This seems to be a rhetorical re-frame. What Rollo is getting at, I think, is that hypergamy’s going to exist in force whether the preacher rationalizes it from the pulpit or nobody every talks about or mentions it. At the end of the day, women still seek to mate upward socially, and can be counted upon to work to make society amenable to… Read more »
A lot of focus in the comments is about the destructive nature of hypergamy. I bet my 100 cents that if hypothetically hypergamy was replaced by some other mate selection criteria e.g. “rationalgamy” in which a man writes a letter of motivation to a women and rationally lists why she should be with him and she rationally chooses a mate, we’d have some other group of men bemoaning about how “shallow” women are. What I mean to say is whatever mate selection criteria women have men …….. some men always will bemoan. That I think is the crux of this… Read more »
@Coy Nice reframe. The problem is not men bemoaning. The problem is women behaving in a harmful way to society, to men and to themselves. but if you get game,a sane head and some luck..you’ll be ok. If you are lucky, you’ll be ok because the definition of luck is that the things that happen to you are good things so, obviously, you will be ok. Big deal. But a society cannot be built based on the fact that the average person needs luck to be ok. Try this: – If a child got money, a sane head and some… Read more »
That I’m more interested in shaking the ghosts out of the machine to better understand it.
@Mark Minter I say we use him again in a Copernican manner, as the very argument that the Feminine Imperative is an entirely contrived ideal. And we reject “love”, as in the definition of it by Capellanus. We see it as the social manipulation that it was to orchestrate the emotions of men, and actions from those emotions, entirely for the benefit of women. I hear your words and understand and agree. I would not say that Love does not exist. This notion of love as explained to us is supposed to be some magical thing that happens when two… Read more »
@Rotten
You may want to look into Saudi Arabia a bit more before deciding “Women flock to and marry the most alpha man they can get, even if that man is already married.” Additionally, contrast marriage law.
@Alden
To make the above point more clearly, consider:
“At the end of EACH day, women still seek to mate upward socially.”
Given that frame: “Are you implying that hypergamy ‘exists with equal efficiency’ in Saudi Arabia and America?”
Both may want to read Minter’s post.
“That I’m more interested in shaking the ghosts out of the machine to better understand it.”
I meant in terms of your definition of “alpha” and “hypergamy.” You may not have a concrete definition, but there is definitely something there and it is influencing your morality/amorality/behavior.
How are you able to quote like that?
@imnobody
you aptly misunderstand me.What you say I agree with 100%.Every nerd learning game is every nerd not in a lab making stuff.and women are burning away civilization by rewarding bad boys.
So what do we do?
women will do what they have done for centuries ………optimise hypergamy as socially permissible as possible.Its your job to get what you want from them in the process.
ps: by luck i mean the probabilistic nature of world where stuff isnt black and white and all women aren’t “evil”.
I <3 this article.
@Different T
Like this:
<blockquote>How are you able to quote like that?</blockquote>
But there’s a huge catch… if you ever enter them in incorrectly, if you miss a < or > or /… you can mess up the comments below yours and force the blog owner to manually fix the comments. That’s very annoying. I get very anal about most of my comments, so I rarely make a mistake (but poor Dalrock had to fix one of mine the other day, I felt terrible).
This clash we are witnessing here is the clash between civilization and our primal impulses, between higher brain functions and the hind brain. While in the past, hypergamy might have better served the species as a mate selection process, it now collides head first with what the current sate of the species defines might define as good qualities to perpetuate. And I trust the higher brain that pulled us out of caves and got us building pyramids to find its way around yet another obstacle in us reaching Jupiter. But that’s just wishful thinking. For now, hypergamy is what it… Read more »
Its your job to get what you want from them in the process.””””””””
agreed they ain’t all mind readers tell em what you want
I quote my first semi-redpill exposure – Doc Love “She has no Character. She has no Honesty. She has no Loyalty. She has no Integrity. You can’t Trust her. Otherwise, she’s great!” I know, but you have to start somewhere…He got me here. For the past four years, I’ve been trying to figure out what * I * did to implode a 25 year marriage. Yes, I laid it all on me. What else could it be? Damn near blew my brains out 2 or 3 times. Hypergamy? WTF? That caused her and her swinger-couple friends to spike my drink… Read more »
What a relief — an absolute fucking relief — to see that our resident Jesuit, “King A,” appears to have vanished for good.
It’s nice to be rid of his snark, sarcasm, and bombast.
Minter is a thousand times better, and more relevant.
Hurrah!
Unrelated request: I’d email directly but I couldn’t seem to find any address to do so, so I apologize to those involved in the discussion here. By pure luck, I stumbled upon this blog around the time it came to be. I wasn’t looking for it, but found it via a school friend that is really one of the great white knight / manginas of our time. Needless to say he was not singing the blog’s praise. I told him I bookmarked it. He thought I was joking. I wasn’t because I found myself in a mid-30’s slump following a… Read more »
@Jon, thank you for the props. While I do have a book forthcoming this year, I would point you to this post here:
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/08/29/year-one/
This is a good, chronological, starting point for people unfamiliar with RM and is really the outline for the book I’ve got in edits right now.
Why so angry?
Female hypergamy is to MMV
what male wandering eyes are to SMV.
Two sides of the same coin.
We both are winning for the greater benefits of the species.
LOL I’m beginning to think the writing on this blog is becoming sort of a self parody…it seems to be getting ridiculously “technical”
[…] not sure if Mark Minter had plans to submit his essay of a comment on Hypergamy Synthesis to Return of Kings or some other manosphere collective blog, but I felt it was too important a post […]
@Edward LOL I’m beginning to think the writing on this blog is becoming sort of a self parody…it seems to be getting ridiculously “technical” Frankly, I enjoy it. It’s a welcome fountain of usefulness when compared to all the articles on relationships written by women. Those articles are tremendously lacking in solid definitions. They’re all full of internal inconsistencies and exude a very poor exploration of the facts… They’re all so bad as to be absolutely useless. If you’re going to discuss the nuance of human interaction, you can’t get by with simplicity. That’s like trying to describe the universe… Read more »
Have a look what hypergamy did to those poor fuckers in Columbia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VKWLC87Uzw
Would love to hear a quick take from Rollo on this.
@The Karamazov Idea MGTOW have not failed. In fact they are not trying to achieve anything or change anything. They understand the concept of hypergamy perfectly. They have decided to opt out. They will see to it to live their lives the way they want to live them. No more sacrifcing for the family/society. No more labouring long hours to produce for the family. You see and even if these men still seek to get laid they pump and dump. There are always younger models being replaced by the older ones and this has and can go on forever. What… Read more »
[…] Hypergamy Synthesis […]
> What these feminists/women have failed to realize is that they “need” us. We only want them.
Men want women, but women need men.
Excellent meme.
” We want to believe our ‘higher’ selves can rise above the physical demands of hypergamy only to have those moral idealizations reflect hypergamy within that idealized context.”
Religion school life…