Reader Coy expressed a need for illumination on the myth of the Quality woman:
Rollo,
I would really appreciate your thoughts on “the quality woman”. You have touched on the phenomena in many of your previous posts but i really feel my self subconsciously slipping into that binary circle jerk of madonna/whore . A dedicated post would be nice.
I briefly touched on this in AFC Social Conventions:
The Myth of the “Quality” Woman
It seems like all I read about on SoSuave these days is a never ending quest for a “Quality Woman.” There’s threads asking for clear definitions of what constitutes a “Quality” woman and others that conveniently set women up into 2 camps – Quality women and Hors, as if there were no middle ground. How easy it becomes to qualify a woman based on her indiscrretions (as heinous as they’re perceived to be) for either of these catagories. This is binary thinking at its best – on or off, black or white, Quality woman or Hor.
I think the term ‘Quality’ woman is a misnomer. Guys tend to apply this term at their leisure not so much to define what they’d like in a woman (which is actually an idealization), but rather to exclude women with whom they’d really had no chance with in the first place as an ego-preservation method, or mistakenly applied too much effort and too much focus to only to be rebuffed. This isn’t to say that there aren’t women who will behvae maliciously or indiscriminately, nor am I implying that they ought to be excused out of hand for such. What I am saying is that it’s very AFC to hold women up to preconceived idealizations and conveniently discount them as being less than “Quality” when you’re unable to predict, much less control their behaviors.
The dangers inherent in this convention is that the AFC (or the DJ subscribing to the convention) then limits himself to only what he perceives as a Quality woman, based on a sour-grapes conditioning. Ergo, they’ll end up with a “Quality” woman by default because she’s the only candidate who would accept him for her intimacy. It becomes a self-fulfiling prophecy by process of elmination. Taken to its logical conclusion, they shoot the arrow, paint the target around it and call it a bullseye, and after which they’ll feel good for having held to a (misguided) conviction.
So why is this a social convention then? Because it is socially unassailable. Since this convention is rooted to a binary premise, no one would likely challenge it. It would be foolish for me to say “Yes Mr. DJ I think you ought to avoid what you think of as Quality women.” Not only this, but we all get a certain satisfaction from the affirmation that comes from other men confirming our own assessment of what catagory a woman should fit into. Thus it becomes socially reinforced.
Be careful of making a Quality woman your substitute for a ONEitis idealization.
Back when he had a terrestrial radio show Tom Leykis did a topic about this: He had everyday women call in and tell their stories of how they used to be sexually (i.e. slutty) and how they are now. He came up with this after driving past a grade school on his way to the studio and seeing all of the women there waiting for their kids to come out and wondered about what their lives used to be like in their childless 20s. This was a wildly popular topic and the confessions just poured in like all of these women had been waiting for years to come clean anonymously about the sexual past that their husbands would never dream they were capable of. Each of these women sounded proud of themselves, almost nostalgic, as if they were some kind of past accomplishments.
This is why I laugh at the concept of the Quality woman. Don’t misinterpret that as a “women = shit” binary opinion. I mean it in the sense that most guy’s concept of a quality woman is an unrealistic idealization. There’s not a guy in the world who committed to monogamy with a woman who didn’t think she was ‘quality’ when he was with her. Even if she was a clinical neurotic before he hooked up with her, she’s still got “other redeeming qualities” that make her worth the effort. It’s only afterwards when the world he built up around her idealization comes crashing down in flames that she “really wasn’t a Quality Woman.”
Force Fit
The Quality Woman is defined by how well she fits a man’s conditioned ideal. Good Luck Chuck lamented in last week’s Hyenas that after a certain age all women are Alpha Widows, or, progressively lose the idealization of embodying the Quality Woman. While I understand the frustration, there’s an eerily similar tone that men use when they bemoan the lack of Quality Women in the world that echoes women’s when they ask “what happened to all the real men?” The only difference being that in girl-world a woman is entitled to a real man irrespective of her own quality, while a man is less of a Man for his complaints of her lacking those qualities.
I don’t envy the situation monogamy minded men in this era find themselves in. As we become a more and more connected society the indiscretions of a woman’s past will become increasingly more difficult to hide, much less temper. Whereas before, unless a woman had worked in porn, documenting her sexual and/or intimate past may have been an effort best reserved for private investigators. Now it’s as easy as reading her social media footprint archived for all to read.
This is tough on a guy sold on idealistic notions that his virgin bride is awaiting him somewhere in the world. That may be a bit binary for all but the most white knight of guys, but by order of degree, and with a measured prudence, I think it’s important for men to disabuse themselves of finding the virgin slut, who’ll only be his virgin slut.
And while I would never advocate a guy to hurry up and marry those sluts, the problem with this idealization is that men want to force fit the woman who most closely resembles his Quality Woman into that fantasy role. It becomes a psychological feedback loop – connect with a “Quality Woman”, discover her flaws, personal conditions and the decisions she made that resulted in them, then (after attempts at rationalizing them himself) disqualify her from the Quality Woman designation. The cycle comes full circle when her disqualification as a Quality Woman sets the environment for finding his next ‘jewel in the rough’.
The bad news and the good news of this is that, as connectivity and communication among men increases, so too do they realize that the Quality Woman is an impossibility even for the most gracious of women. Thanks to the rise of the manosphere we have a global consortium of men exchanging their individual experiences with women to compare and contrast with their own. The good part is it’s easy to generate a list of red flags to watch out for or read about the consequences men have suffered as a result of their blue pill existences. The bad part is that with that greater understanding comes the realization that even the best of women are still subject to hypergamy, the feminine imperative and the fem-centric environment they find themselves in.
A little bit of knowledge is sometimes dangerous – after a lot of this realization and the discernement that comes from it men are likely to have a very long list of prerequisites and red flags develop. I’m not saying men should surrender to the inevitability of marrying some raging former slut, but I am saying that an important part of unplugging oneself from the Matrix is letting go of the idealization of the Quality Woman. There are a lot of caring and nurturing former sluts, and there are pristine and chaste women only lacking the proper motivation to move them in a direction no one would ever expect of them.
After returning from living in Poland for 6 months I’ve been dating some American women. I don’t think I’ll ever marry an American woman due to the terrible divorce laws, even if she is great, precisely because she’ll still be subject to hypergamy, the feminine imperative, fem-centric environment, etc. The fact is that the notion of a virgin bride/”quality girl” (or one thats only been with 1-2 men) waiting for me somewhere in the world, isn’t so far-fetched. Many of these women exist, but they’re mostly outside of the U.S./West and if you find one, don’t bring her back to… Read more »
yep, no such thing as a “quality girl”, just a girl.
Side note: girls are frankly dumb and LOVE it when you tell them so in a frank but non accusing way and like to hear it. They always agree. To forgive their emotional fragility and feral outbursts of “fuck me and make me feel better” and then provide a strong bulwark to their lying-assed feelings.
Boom.
“there’s an eerily similar tone that men use when they bemoan the lack of Quality Women in the world that echoes women’s when they ask ‘what happened to all the real men?’ ”
Weird – I just said something like this on a Sosuave thread.
I agree with you, and I always say there is no “quality,” but there are qualities. A woman hopefully will have several qualities that you find attractive. Only you know for certain what you’re happy with and what you’re unhappy with.
Best blog in the manosphere by a mile. Never-ending quality articles. Keep it up Rollo, you’re really helping a lot of guys.
*forgot to add after “feelings”-“is the nicest thing you can do for them.
In other words, red pill men are hypergamous too albeit in a different way. But then, hypergamy is more about pereption than reality, and more relevant to the future than the past, isn’t it? It follows that one can learn to love the woman one has, which takes us back to what we always were except this time armed with the internalised knowledge and awareness of the inherent sinfulness of women. Classic blue pill. So what next? How does a man discipline himself to love the fallen woman in his arms? What character does he need to cultivate in himself… Read more »
@Jacob
My gut says that just knowing the true nature of women is enough. Once you see the emotional matrix surrounding gurgling biology (no I idea who said that but its a cool quote) that is the SMP, you are top 3-5% of all men navigating it. The ability to “hard next and snap up another hottie 10-20 years younger than you is the ultimate in power.
In other words, knowing how to ride a bike is a forever skill regardless of the bike you are riding and when.
Checkmate fe-males, IMHO.
“Even if she was a clinical neurotic before he hooked up with her, she’s still got “other redeeming qualities” that make her worth the effort.”
LMAO that’s too true
Yeah, it’s going to continue to be rough in the short term for monogamy-minded men. I suspect, though, that we’re nearing the backswing of the pendulum. The debt-financed welfare state does not look to be long for this world, as various countries’ banks require ever-more-heroic interventions to stay afloat. It’s important to remember the socioeconomic context of women’s hypergamy: financial support from the state minimizes the SMV granted by a beta-provider strategy, and consequently also the pool of men attractive to the average woman. Of course, hypergamy won’t care in the future, just as it won’t care now. But men… Read more »
“The mystery of a female is purely the romantic imagination of men.” -Esther Vilar
I’m new to this, so I’ve been scratching my head wondering where the hell are these guys finding good-looking women with only one or two men in their past. I mean, I get the appeal of settling down with a woman who only had a couple of guys in her past because I was just about to do that. Turns out that because she never rode the carousel, she felt she had missed out and cheated on me (thankfully before the wedding!). Now I’m starting to question the wisdom of targeting less experienced women. A lot of them are so… Read more »
“Each of these women sounded proud of themselves, almost nostalgic, as if they were some kind of past accomplishments.”
Alpha widows on display.
What’s funny is what they find proud…makes me go, meh. Congrats on getting a cad to screw you…that was quite possibly the easiest thing you could do.
Not worth the effort.
@ Glenbert That girl wasn’t in love with you bro, sorry. Thats the point of the sphere and these posts. When a girl is truly in love, she CANT cheat unless you really step on your dick. They don’t believe that the cad at the bar will whisk them away, but they ARE willing to take the gamble that he might, and feminism has assured that she can take this gamble with relative (in pre-1900’s terms) ease. Keep going though, man, you are getting there. 6 months and you will have killed the beta, I can tell. Gym, paleo diet,… Read more »
@Tilikum, thank. Oh, I very quickly concluded that she didn’t love me. Even pleaded with me that she did actually love me and that the whole thing was an aberration, I realized that she was a buffoon. I’m just starting to think that most inexperienced women are like this. The only seemingly red pill women that I have ever met were (purportedly) former carousel riders. I just thought it was timely that, as I was questioning the conventional measures of quality, the author questions the concept of quality period. Just because a woman hasn’t been on the carousel doesn’t mean… Read more »
The thing guys forget is they are basically dating a dude in a girl skinsack most of the time. A lot of the qualities men look for nowadays were requested by or trained into them by other men similar to how you START going to the gym because you realize test is a sex magnet. You continue to go to the gym because its routine, because you like it. Girls continue to do the things that make us wild because we like it, its routine. Seldom changes occur, but they do and we are all better for it. That’s all… Read more »
You can find the virgin who wants to be your everything… But she’s fat and no one has ever looked at her with an appreciative glance.
Different strokes and all that…
Each of these women sounded proud of themselves, almost nostalgic, as if they were some kind of past accomplishments.
I’m curious. Is this archived anywhere where you can listen to it? I’d like to hear exactly what they confessed to. I mean, I know the slutty things women do but I’d like to hear their stories.
jack – I doubt it is. CBS removed all the videos last April as soon as Tom Leykis came back
Men are the inventors of the chastity belt, moral law, the commandment of adultery, and every religious condemnation of sexual promiscuity for the past 10,000 years.
It doesn’t surprise me at all that men look for a way to find quality women…we inevitably do it over and over again regardless of being called insecure, peter pan, etc.
On a related note, can you imagine depression conditions where you only make $100 a month salary? Iphone or starve….hmmmm…..tough
I agree with a previous commenter. If she adds value to you life, she’s asmuch of a quality woman as you need. Don’t give her power, don’t get oneitis, don’t marry her. If she proves unfaithful, find another one. There’s no need to constantly seek the holy grail, all women are basically the same. I am a serial monogomist, usually my relationships last 1-3 years. The woman I am dating cooks, cleans and does thinkgs like that for me. If she cheats or decides to leave, find another one. Doesn’t make her a bad woman, just makes her a woman.… Read more »
Guys tend to apply this term at their leisure not so much to define what they’d like in a woman (which is actually an idealization), but rather to exclude women with whom they’d really had no chance with in the first place as an ego-preservation method”
disagree with this reasoning. i could never hook up with Kim Kardashian, but thats not the reason she isn’t a quality woman to me.
Marriage wouldn’t be bad if the legal system hadn’t been destroyed by the Left. I really would like to get married but I have worked my ass off to make a really good living and lifestyle. I do not want to risk losing that. It looks like serial monogamy for me too.
Dr Illusion: Very good words of wisdom. The mini-relationship(1-3 years) is truly the relationship of the future for red pill men. The relationship usually ends when the woman inevitably makes a desperate push for marriage, usually in the form of some kind of weak ultimatum. I have had this happen many times. You’d be surprised how easily a woman will replace you with just some other guy when they are in marriage mode. All of the women who’ve claimed to love me replaced me very quickly with some other marriage-minded dude when I broke it off with them. Basically, when… Read more »
Lol what the fuck is this. You’re an apologist for whores. How many different dicks have been in your wife’s mouth? It’s relevant to the discussion. If the army started putting out recruitment posters looking for “quality soldiers”, presumably your reaction would be that they were being “idealistic” to imagine that there are any men in the world who aren’t fucking cowards and even the most worthless coward is capable of loading ammo into the barrel of a tank. Whoop-dee-doo, so what if he can. The standard, the “ideal” exists for a reason, stupid. It’s for people to live up… Read more »
The reason men search for such women is because they did exist, back in the era when you married your high school sweetheart and stayed married. Starting in about the late ’70s, parents started encouraging their daughters to “play the field” and not settle down with boyfriend #1 or #2. Then these women grew up to become parents and raised their girls as boys, right down to giving them men’s names like Taylor and Drew, and pushing them into careers instead of homemaking. Men’s problems have come about because their minds are still stuck in the old 1950s paradigm, which… Read more »
@dude
You’d be surprised how easily a woman will replace you with just some other guy when they are in marriage mode.”
Truer words have never been spoken. I have seen it many times
I haven’t thought of “quality woman” in absolute terms since I’ve seen what woman is (as well what man is) to the extent of nullifying or annhihilating such fantasies or illusions. The harsh reality of “quality time” in their presence makes sure of it. Sure, I’d hoped for the dream (as most have at some point of their life) but that has passed for me since age 13 [and I still have the marks of its passing, on my body]. Some things you can’t really communicate to your fellow man, especially when they’re caught up in beta-ism just to have… Read more »
It seems to be widely acknowledged in this community that: females provide eggs = males provide commitment. Further, it seems widely acknowledged that men who indiscriminately provide commitment to females are “beta” and will ultimately repel females, rather than attract them; that they are not “quality” males that females will desire, from a female perspective. I concur with this widely held sentiment. Inversely, logic would hold that women who indiscriminately provide eggs (sexual access) will repel males (for commitment), rather than attract them; that they are not “quality” females that males will desire (for commitment), from a male perspective. The… Read more »
So I’m reading this famous tech essay “The Law of Accelerating Returns” by Ray Kurzweil. The theme is that technology and societal evolution is speeding up. Some tech observers ridicule this essay and its believers in what Kurzweil predicts as this hyper-optimistic view of the coming “Singularity”, when machines start to think and begin to design ever intelligent machines that starts a loop from which society will not overcome. A lot of what the guy says has come to pass. I started working with Clusters back around 2007. Cheap commuter parts, amazing software that had come into open source, such… Read more »
“So I figure when that happens, then we’ll have true “quality women” and I ain’t ever leaving the fucking house ever again
Thank you. Very helpful. We’ve all progressed our lives based on your riveting insights. You moved the conversation forward. Attack. Really don’t want to dog you, so why don’t you share your true feelings, which are always interesting, if not a warning sign.
The fabled “Mark Mintor,” and his ilk. Give me a break. Mintor is solid as solid comes, no doubt. But he’s just a guy, like the rest of us, including me. Is it possible to have conversations amongst ourselves without anyone being the particular well-framed alpha leader? Or would that be non-“alpha”–to just hold a coversation. Really that difficult? Or must we out-alpha each other at every turn. Seems a meaningless existence to me. But, fine. You win. I bend over. Give it to me. Give it to me hard; how has that advancd the conversations? Now what? You win?… Read more »
I don’t really know what all that means. I just thought I would leave sort of a potentially humorous reference to the confusion of what a “quality women” entailed, one that theoretically we could define her virtually as a solution. Look, the really great thing about the internet is that it you access it through a browser. And I have 4 used different browsers at different times, Explorer, Opera, Chrome and now mostly Firefox. The down arrow key works on all of them to quickly speed you past content you don’t like. And if I recall, on all them, the… Read more »
But realistically, I find women to be like razors. The quality ones cost more. All can cause irritation no matter the quality. And they all get dull with time and are best changed regularly.
Didn’t really see it at first but the image that accompanies this essay just defines pathos. Sympathetic pity but also contempt. If only it were staged. Don’t think so.
“It becomes a psychological feedback loop – connect with a “Quality Woman”, discover her flaws, personal conditions and the decisions she made that resulted in them, then (after attempts at rationalizing them himself) disqualify her from the Quality Woman designation. The cycle comes full circle when her disqualification as a Quality Woman sets the environment for finding his next ‘jewel in the rough’.” A red flag that is sometimes easy to overlook is if a man describes you as “perfect.” It lets you know that you will be dropped like a hot potato the second you no longer overlap with… Read more »
Rollo, OT but wondering if you have anything to opine about these remarks from a NY stripper, “’There are more and more good-looking guys every time. I swear. I don’t understand why they come,’ says Lisa. ‘They should be out meeting real girls.’”? (http://www.nypost.com/p/entertainment/carrer_girl_by_day_stripper_by_night_b2w7KQHGmqqov5e3RyMRfL/1)
The “Quality Woman” is man’s unicorn. The very thought of this implies “settling” which means game becomes loose.
As I’m now discovering in my own journey, women want to be gamed.
As for “quality”..this is relative. If you look at character, you don’t want to be with a crack-head alcoholic.
After that, finding a “Quality Woman” is on part with finding a “Soul mate”–an idealistic pursuit that circumvents the need for game.
Rollo, As a reforming AFC, I have to say my thinking about “Quality women” is somewhat antipodal to your conclusion. AFC wise, the “Quality Woman”, was a way of saying, I accept this unattractive women because she had other “qualities” which the feminist movement brainwashed me into accepting (NewThin). It was a mental model to avoid going after the women I was physically attracted to. A buffer of sorts, in order to stay in the current relationship. Quality women were not the women I could not get or have, but the women I ended up with and needed a way… Read more »
When a man says he is in love then what he’s actually saying is that he found that girl/woman and she’s the one he can project all his good parts, his idealizations into her – She’s the one he chooses to put all the good parts of himself into.
A woman doesn’t do that. They ‘love’ in a different fashion.
(inspired by Otto Weininger)
Thank you for your blog and all the effort.
“Sometimes experience isn’t a negative thing. When someone learns from mistakes, they are actually in a better position to be a better partner/person. A pristine and chaste woman may stay just that, but there is also the possibility this makes them more susceptible to sin.”
I’d take a chaste woman that hasn’t sinned yet over a reformed slut. If the slut is truly reformed she doesn’t blame men, society, her conditions, etc. on her bad choices and takes accountability for her actions. But she still has those experience imprinted in her head.
How old are you, earl? There is a window for men too. If you want to get young girls who haven’t been “imprinted,” you’d better consider marrying by your mid-thirties. If you’re not willing to get in the marriage game, as you age, you’ll (eventually) be reduced to dating other men’s ex-wives. If that doesn’t bother you (it doesn’t both some older men), no worries. If you want the realization of a woman who is purely yours, you’d better find her and keep her sooner rather than later, depending on your current age.
“If you’re not willing to get in the marriage game, as you age, you’ll (eventually) be reduced to dating other men’s ex-wives.”
No…because I get to pick who I want to date. It’s one of the great things about being a man.
You can pick all you want, but, at a certain point, the supply you’re looking for won’t be there/interested in you. How do you think women become “imprinted” in the first place? Men who don’t want to marry them. You have to recognize that you’re shooting your future self in the foot as much as the carousel riders everyone claims to dislike. Just a friendly suggestion from an old fogey 😉
The betas and their desire for the “quality woman” do indeed remind me of the damaged goods pining for their prince charming/Christian Grey/Mr. Big/etc. Neither will ever get (nor deserve to get) what they want because the objects of their desires don’t want them. They are their own problems.
You must assume rejection means anything to me anymore.
I approach and close women that strike my fancy all the time. Sure I get rejected more often than naught…oh well. How many guys you approach this week?
Besides it doesn’t matter what age she is…they all respond to the same attraction cues. Age in a guy doesn’t matter.
Please confirm if I am reading your correctly. It seems your argument is a combination of the “painting the bullseye”, pedestalization, and the male equivalent of list-making. To expand: Quality woman by reworking the internal definition to the girl. Quality woman as a pedestalizing her with virtues she may or may not have. Finally, quality woman as in rejecting girls by their past while they actually have genuine attraction and capable to be a good partner. Yet, I can’t help that while I sense your true direction, the supporting points seems to argue to “surrender to the inevitability of marrying… Read more »
After that, finding a “Quality Woman” is on part with finding a “Soul mate”–an idealistic pursuit that circumvents the need for game. The Myth of the Quality Woman is nothing more than a watered down version of the Soulmate Myth. Most guys are smart enough to understand that there isn’t one person on earth that is cosmically destined to be your one and only true love, but unfortunately lots of men will never let go of the idea that there is solid line that separates good girls from bad. A lot of this has to do with rationalizations and ego… Read more »
American women are undate-able and absolutely unmarriable. My heart goes out for the beta male whose destiny is to wade through their quarter-pounder wive’s rolls of fat for enough friction to release a few drops of mucus into an infertile womb. At heart I am a romantic man. I fall in love with almost every woman I seduce because I believe in some part they are seducing me back. I do enjoy looking into their eyes sometimes even getting lost and feeling the warmth that they radiate from within. It’s a nice feeling but it is a fantasy at best.… Read more »
http://youtu.be/wxWuREjuLAE “She may look fit, sexy and sophisticated, but after she’s naked with mascara running down her face and she’s trying to stuff her thighs into a pair of too-small jeans at 2:00 a.m., you realize she’s just another person trying to get by.” – Paul Janka The more judgemental they think you’ll be, the more they’ll hide from you. I’d rather she’s comfortable admitting to me that she sucked got drunk and sucked off a football team last weekend so I can decide what I want to with that information, than have her lie to me and tell me… Read more »
Like Tyler has said it’s crazy what lengths guys will go to keep that illusion, how much obvious evidence they’ll ignore and hamster rationalize to convince themselves their girl (or EE girls) are “different”. Two recent anecdotes: 1) I’m at a bar the other weekend and this chick I know sees me there. I fucked her friend like a champ and almost fucked her too, so the sexual tension is still there in her mind. She runs over and hugs me and grinds me and talks to me with her face an inch from mine while I do nothing to… Read more »
GLC – “Most guys simply lack the fortitude to accept reality without some sort of filter.” Oh so fucking true! When I married my sons mother I was very take it or leave it. But as time went by, this woman became more of an illusion in my mind, then the real person she is. I have become a wart on her ass! I have a HUGE filter that only now I am noticing and trying to destroy. I can’t remember which one of you said it awhile back, but you said something like, “the red pill should not make… Read more »
Okay, now I want to ask this as more comments comes it. No matter how I read it, the final conclusions to derive from stories and points made does not sounds like the sentences concluded from commentators. I mean it’s serious shit if one have to repeat it as a mantra every morning to calm down. Is the final red pill mean accepting “women = shit” point or to avoid pedetalization by (falsely attributed) purity of a girl with a combination of wishful thinking and enabling to be a loserly beta – and giving up the idea of expecting a… Read more »
@Dreamer
You’re already coming from the wrong place if you’re screening for girls “worth keeping around”. You should be pursuing girls for fucking, not keeping/investing. Keeping a girl should not enter your mind. It shouldn’t be a thought. It shouldn’t even have a tiny place in the darkest corner of your mind. When you meet an attractive girl, your brain should being saying “let’s fuck, let’s fuck, let’s fuck” instead of “can I invest, can I invest, can I invest”. Guys who think like that are basically searching for their oneitis. It reeks of betatude.
@Leo G That’s my general message around here, so that might’ve been me. But whether it was or not, I agree whole-heartedly with that mantra you wrote and I’m glad it’s helped you pull the curtain back in your life. When I talk about girls doing these “terrible” things, I always try to stress that they’re just acting on their instincts/emotions. You don’t get mad at a big dumb dog for shitting on the carpet because it doesn’t know better. A lot of the reason guys are extra butt-hurt about “these terrible bitches” is because they built such a perfect… Read more »
Quality women existed before the 60’s.
“A lot of the reason guys are extra butt-hurt about “these terrible bitches” is” It’s because the system lied to them about how things work. If the system told men from the beginning that women were whores then men would have no problem as they’d adjust their behaviour to treat women as they were worth. What pisses men off is they were told by the system that women aren’t whores and that they should and did provide a level of socio-economic production and achievement commensurate with women who aren’t whores. Essentially the system has defrauded men of women’s true value.… Read more »
The modern western girl is going to have a slutty past. This is unavoidable. There is no changing this fact. The only two paths are acceptance or self destruction. Is this optimal for the man that has notions of traditionalism? No it isn’t but so what? You can’t control the era that you were born in. Every single man that has ever come into this world has had to deal with issues and circumstances that were unfavorable. Wallowing in pity isn’t the answer. The solution is accept the environment and push for success. Besides what man here has not riden… Read more »
Some good Minter laughs and YaReally wisdom and war stories and only one asshole commentator. Not a bad night Rollo.
“The magical amazing EE girls are the same way.”
Depends. There are greater social consequences for slutting it up in some of those E.E countries. Even nude models in those countries are often dismissed as ‘fallen women’. I remember that gorgeous nude model Katie Fey(not her real name) talking about that once in an interview. She claimed that many Slav men wouldn’t accept her despite her looks because of what she does, and it’s not like she was banging guys on camera.
@chris I agree 110%. That’s part of why guys have so much trouble with the Red Pill at first. Not ONLY do you have to accept a whole bunch of new shit about nice guys finishing last and how chicks dig bad boys and hypergamy and all that game related shit…but you also have to accept that: 1) Society, including your friends, family, even your own MOTHER, has been lying to you your entire life. Everyone you thought you could trust was feeding you bullshit that wasted a good portion of your life. 2) You were dumb enough to FALL… Read more »
test
I’m convinced the manosphere is having a renaissance. Lots of new commenters and perspectives! Love the posts Rollo. Your commenters are what keep me addicted to the blog like crack. I want to echo the shout out to YaReally. The posts on heartiste and analysis of Scray’s FRs has legitimately improved my game. You drop lots of little tricks that handle the mechanical details of pickup. Even when not directly explaining that shit, it is addressed better than in a lot of pickup lit. The best part of your writing is your frame. You’ve clearly spent time in field. Some… Read more »
It’s difficult to believe in quality women once you hit your 40’s, deploy a few times and have some moderate success in the SMP.
A wise man does not “love” a woman, he enjoys what she has to offer until her bullshit exceeds his enjoyment
Seems to me that trapped in the 1950’s logic loop does a lot of harm and keeps a lot of men from dealing with reality
Wow, Ferrett. Nice! I always wonder what men mean when they say “slut.” Are they simply referring to a woman’s number of sexual partners? Or, is it specific behavior, demeanor, attitudes? To me there’s a big difference between a woman who sleeps with everyone/anyone and someone who really screens and sometimes will sleep with someone special.
“Or, is it specific behavior, demeanor, attitudes?”
That’s what I refer a slut as. A woman trying to play a man’s game….and making bad decisions because of it.
The male eqiuvalent of a slut is a guy trying to play a female game…and out nice all of them.
To me, a quality woman is one who exerts self-discipline, and heeds and accepts the wise discipline of men e.g. father or husband.
Since this is now almost entirely unheard of, quality women can’t be found roaming about any more than unicorns can be found roaming about…
so, they have to be trained. Quality doesn’t just happen.
It is taught.
Led Zeppelin:
“Tryin’ to find a woman who’s never, never, never been born. “
I completely disagree with the concept of “forgiveness” of a reformed slut, as it implies that your desires are somehow wrong. If by forgiveness, you mean to go ahead and fvk her, as you move on to some other girl to fvk, then I could agree with those terms. However by saying that men should ‘forgive” such women and commit to them in some manner is basically saying that men should forgo their SMP advantage in deferrence of hers. Look at it this way, women slut it up in their teens and 20’s. Then they find a guy to settle… Read more »
The man who fears the american influence on his woman is no different than the boyfriend who fears the male influence on his girlfriend.
How influential are you as her man when you fear her even having a conversation with another man ?
Her attraction for you must not be that strong if any little outside influence can jeopardize it.
@ Danger…
She has to do the forgiving of herself….but to do that it means she has to take accountability for her actions.
A man bring that truth to her by explaining to her how freeing forgiveness is…she can either scream yell and blame all those evil men…or take onus upon herself.
Does that mean marry her after she shows true contrition? Not necessarily…but she won’t have the pain and weight of her past weighing her down for the rest of her life…and that will make her more attractive to men.
@Adam You have truth, however you didn’t address anything I said. Unless your argument is to say that anything I said is moot because I should only think about fucking. Unfortunately, life have the tendency to interact with women outside of such situations. For example things like co-workers or acquaintances-to-more-informal or just girlfriends of someone. Like assuming my little brother’s girl is a whore but just hiding despite years know her in some form doesn’t seem to be a helpful policy. So, what you said is true, but so is saying “@Dreamer well… 2+2=4”. Also within the context you’re targeting.… Read more »
Dalrock (as usual) is on my same mental wavelength this week: http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/03/20/haunted-by-a-number/ I think the problem most guys have is in being realistic about women’s sexual pasts. The woman regretting her N count in Dalrock’s post is in the double digits, but her preoccupation isn’t with the number but rather the epiphany she would have us believe she’s experiencing now later in life and the genuine want for sex with more emotional meaning attached to it. In the Tomassi book (and probably most guy’s) the girl is a slut, not because her N count is so high, but because there… Read more »
All too true Rollo. I was the guy in his late teens and early 20’s who idolized a “pristine” girl. I grew up as I had more and more girls throw themselves at me, but it never changed my desire to have a woman without baggage. That of course doesn’t mean that I would not date women who weren’t perfect, I just made the best of a bad situation, shacking up for awhile but never commiting. Buyer beware is definitely the phrase to use, for me the answer has been to not be a buyer at all, but just a… Read more »
A man has to be a slut apologist to a degree in order to get by in today’s SMP. Today we don’t have the option to choose between Good vs. Slutty so we have to rationalize our mate choice. The spectrum of behavior has gotten so shitty we are forced to grade on a curve. We HAVE to give the chick with a dick count of 5 an “A-” because we can’t realistically expect much better. Especially when we hit OUR sexual prime. Your typical 35 year old guy who has “made it” might still be able to bang quasi-virginal… Read more »
Rollo is right (again). Get reality slapped in the face by this blog before it happens in real life. Back in college was when I first started dating seriously. High school consisted of a date here, a date there, the prom, etc. In college, I got more “serious” with women, which is stupid considering the amount of women on campus. First girlfriend, I thought, was Ms. Virtuous/Religious (I was into religion at the time, not anymore), a “quality” woman. (Not that hot, BTW, I was a raging AFC.) We went back to our homes for the summer and within a… Read more »
This gets back to the notion that everyone’s personality is dynamic and shifts with time. As we grow, are perceptions and preferences change given our constant learning and experiences. Most heterosexual women go through stages of sexual expansion which includes taking on more partners and dating numerous men. Some women are better conditioned ( be it physically or psychologically) for the game, some start out with no game and work their way into dating. This notion that quality has a direct association with mileage makes me laugh. Who would you rather spend the rest of your life with; a woman… Read more »
@Lumpy Glad my writing has helped ya! Always happy to hear my tapping away in the keyboard does some good for another guy. 🙂 @Ace “or a woman who will always keep wondering if the special of the day was better than whats on the plate?” For the record this is one of the easiest girls to convince to cheat. It’s like, laughably easy, because they’re already kind of curious to begin with. Just remove judgement, consequences, help her hamster rationalize it (which it wants to do ANYWAY), and expand on the spark of curiousity that’s already in her sub-conscious… Read more »
Many here seem to commit the blank-slate fallacy, but the truth is that a womans number is an indicator of her underlying genetic makeup. Women who sleep around alot are predisposed to do so and with this package also comes a higher chance of cheating.
This is also the reason men evolved to find promicuosity in women unattractive, as the ones who didnt were eventually removed from the genepool.
“Many here seem to commit the blank-slate fallacy, but the truth is that a womans number is an indicator of her underlying genetic makeup. Women who sleep around alot are predisposed to do so and with this package also comes a higher chance of cheating. This is also the reason men evolved to find promicuosity in women unattractive, as the ones who didnt were eventually removed from the genepool. ” A man being a spineless beta male for most his adult life is also an indicator of being a loser that in primal times wouldn’t have gotten laid. If you… Read more »
@FuriousFerret
Im not trying to condemn anyone but the fact is that women who are promiscuous do cheat and divorce more often and the reason for this lies in their genetic makeup(obviously there are enviromental reasons too).
With this in mind, íf a man wants a monogamous relationship that lasts then he will have to take her number into consideration.
Seems like common sense to me.
See, here is the thing, this is what I want:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1E2A4eNsKQ&list=RD02ecClqZWFKa8
But if that is impossible, if I am just to be a replacable utility, alrighty then.
“Quality woman”?
Maybe such a thing exists, would I be more than a washing machine to her?
If not, what does her “quality” matter to me?
“If men can be forgiven for their beta past and allowed to change, so can a slut.”
Furious Ferret is now Furious Hamster.
Go read the stories of betrayed men on infidelity support forums. Most of them appeared to have gotten married in their early 20s implying that their cheating wives couldn’t have had sky-high N counts. These chaste women hit 30 and go all Eat Pray Love because they’re too fucking sheltered and naive to know the ugly truth about the SMP. Boom, marriage destroyed by a formerly chaste woman Still the correlation between a lower N count and increased loyalty does make sense. I would just like to see some statistical evidence of its truth among this generation of women before… Read more »
@Ace ” Who would you rather spend the rest of your life with; a woman that got a taste of something from the menu and STILL picked you or a woman who will always keep wondering if the special of the day was better than whats on the plate?” That not knowing is what’s gonna torture the dude who gets with her, but like Yareally said he’s gonna have that basement ready lol. “I got da girl who wasn’t corrupted” congrats man, now you just have to make it through the rest of your life wondering if her curiosity and… Read more »
“Furious Ferret is now Furious Hamster.” The problem I have with this statement is that I’m not spinning reality but accepting it. American women are sluts. They have lots of sex with multiple men before marriage. They slut around. They use their prime to live it up. That’s the world we live in. The only way to avoid sluts is through a super religious organizations and believe me you want nothing to do with those. They will brain wash you into betadom faster than even the mainstream media. The solution to the slut aspect is to first accept that almost… Read more »
The gist i’m getting is if woman see’s better man in a her reach just accept she will cheat and assume gal has or will ride the carousel. Ok, but shouldnt the correlary be that women accept that if a hotter gal gives off a DTF vibe that guy should be given a moral pass to tap that ass? All this is well and good but it presuppose that morality far as sexuality goes doesnt exist. If thats true and secret like that gets out what is to keep society together? If women love excitment and killers are exciting in… Read more »
To answer mg own question, doesnt it boil down to fear and incentives? In the past a girl sleeping around bad a very real chance of harming her and any offsprings survival. Men didnt pusue every woman because might end up with an ax in the skull. Even now there are punishments for the beta killer. But in world now the natural fear restraints on womens sexuality are for all intents and purposes are gone. This was not the state of nature when these behavoirs evolved, so can hypergamy run wild really be natural or is it not a allowance… Read more »
Just a point to add about “Quality Woman”….if quality is truly in the eye of the beholder, before learning game, I was meeting women I perceived as “Quality” woman–my ideal—only to be turfed as some needy beta.
But these women were all the same: ingenues, entitled, bitchy, shit-testing and i put them on a pedestal.
Now i’m meeting women who chase me, buy me gifts, cook for me and otherwise are great in bed.
So the adoption of game and the re-framing as me being the prize has attracted women who are higher “Quality”….
@Glenbert
Socialpathology did a post on it:
http://socialpathology.blogspot.com.au/2012/03/promiscuity-data-guest-
post.html
As you can see virgins are still the best bet(good luck on finding one though), but the second best is women with 5-9, so there seems to be something to what YaReally is saying about curiosity in low-N women.
Women don’t mature; they just get old. A woman decides in her 30’s to settle down out of convenience. The great thing about the Manosphere is that it empowers men by repeating truism this in various different ways. I had no idea what my real SMV was until i started reading Dalrock/Roissy/Rollo. and now in my current job, i’m around plenty of women between the ages of 45-60, and it’s amazing to watch their hamsters do somersaults and backflips ad nauseum/ad infinitum. Just yesterday i heard a woman that’s pushing 50 complain that men don’t value ‘quality women’. This is… Read more »
Most of them appeared to have gotten married in their early 20s implying that their cheating wives couldn’t have had sky-high N counts. These chaste women hit 30 i think you’d be surprised/disgusted at the typical n count of today’s early-20’s female. and that’s not even including the things she did in college which ‘didn’t count’. ‘i don’t normally do that’ ‘i was just using those four guys’ ‘i had a little too much to drink’ ‘it was a sorority initiation’ ‘rape!’ but even if you’re not underestimating the n count, the major contributing factor to these guys getting cheated… Read more »
The other day i had a female friend try to shame me for chasing after women that were 7-8 years younger than me. and i bet not an insignificant number of those partners she’s had were at least 7-8 years older than her. fact is, lots of women have dated substantially older men when they were younger, but will then try to shame a man for dating a younger woman when they themselves are no longer young and desirable. and not see the irony in this. older men with younger women = the natural order of things. ‘They aren’t quality… Read more »
Copied from a brilliant man named Afor. NAWALT huh? Just in case you didn’t know, NAWALT = Not All Women Are Like That. This article is being written because I have seen several comments, and heard many men over the years, express confusion over their “bad luck” in attracting a succession of rotten women. “Is it me?” at the milder end of the scale to “What the fuck am I? Some sort of asshole magnet” at the medium end of the scale, to the extreme “It must be my fault for being attracted to the wrong sort of women.” So,… Read more »
Rollo, do you endorse David’s message? If so, doesn’t this imply a MGTOW view?
This probably won’t be a popular comment, but if you want to find an older, quality woman, a divorced woman who has a legitimate reason for divorce (by “legitimate” I mean church sanctioned) who has not gone on a sex spree since the divorce is a good option. This kind of woman would have the traditional mindset you are looking for, but is being overlooked due to the stigma of divorce. Again, my comment is for niche seekers, not the general audience. Overall, find out about a woman’s past.
Thanks for the links, Rollo. Awesome comments everywhere!
@David: If it was true that women would have sex with anything, there would be less shootings, less rapes and less suicides. That’s only true for men. There are plenty of warthogs out here with bfs, husbands and/or kids.
There wouldn’t be a ‘manosphere’ if women were indiscriminate in who they had sex with,
This is a really important essay. I like the writing: Rollo doesn’t say all women are this or that, but there is a large population out there that is labeled quality, when indeed they aren’t. If all women were trash, Rollo wouldn’t have gotten married, most of us wouldn’t date at all. I see this article as saying be careful of what you consider quality and as always, be aware of the world and what’s going on in it. Take it from a reformed AFC, this stuff is very important. I just read an article on suicides in my state,… Read more »
There appears to be a lot of unnecessary negativity in these comments. Some important points…. -Women do start off as virgins, so yes it is capable to get one before they became sluts, That means hitting on 18 year olds. Sure less than half will be virgins (maybe even only 20% or so), but they still exist. -Recognizing the SMP as it is today does not mean that you have to play by the traditional rules. I think there is a strong presupposition towards this end and it is completely unnecessary. -Yes, the modern SMP is a pain for conservative… Read more »