Blog status update: I apologize for the infrequency of my posts of late. I’ve been in the Netherlands and Belgium doing distillery stuff most of last week, but I’ve used my downtime to finish the final draft stages of the book which (I hope) should be on Amazon and other self-publishing venues about mid-March. I’ve never published anything before so it’s a learning process to be sure.
Reader Eric, again, made a revelatory observation in Soldiers:
I get the feminine imperative is what it is. I’m still coming to grips with it on a gut level, but I understand the concept. What I meant with ‘parasitic on masculine values’ was less about judging the nature of FI and more about the extent of its reach into our domain.
Robert highlighted the stark difference. Where I see the military as a repository of masculine values and culture that should be paired with the red pill, he sees a prime example of FI control of men.
The topic du jour at Dalrock’s blog this week is (yet again) the validity of the feminine imperative as a concept. What I find exceptionally ironic about the conveniently christianizing manosphere is this ceaseless droning from holier than thou white knights bemoaning how the feminine imperative is corrupting what the church traditionally should be, but are unable to look beyond how it affects what used to be their comfortable domain.
For all their kvetching they refuse to accept the feminine imperative as a concept. I realize the importance they put on having to reconcile a red pill reality with their faith, but they refuse to look beyond the narrow scope of the effect of the FI on their solitary religious institution. The Soldiers comment thread is an excellent example of another, and much broader, social institution, the military, the FI has both projected feminine primacy on, while ensuring that the beta chumps it depends on stay pliable, ignorant of, and useful to, the feminine imperative.
Reinvention
In Dal’s post Rebuilding the Mound he takes to task a commenter on his blog and deconstructs her reframing of his argument to better align with her feminine-primary interpretation of the feminine imperative. One of the prime successes of the feminine imperative is its ability to reinvent itself to jive with the present environment it finds itself in. The FI has a refined ability to evolve around not only changes in cultural shifts, but also around the the resulting failures it was responsible for.
There are many illustrations of the self-correcting, revisionism of the feminine imperative. Post-Wall spinsters re-imagine the desperation they often find themselves in by making men the culprit of their condition; never is the feminine imperative considered to be the cause. Sexual fluidity is another revisioning that absolves the FI from being the source of a woman’s condition:
The advent of embracing sexual fluidity in women is an attempt by feminized culture to put a bandaid on a lingering problem. As western feminized culture progresses onward from the late 60s, more and more women are awakening to the disillusionment that the choice they made to participate as an ‘equal’ in a masculine world required sacrifices of her femininity. Sacrifices that most come to regret later in life. Between 35 and 45 women are increasingly feeling the repercussions of their attempts to ‘have it all’ or have HAD it all, yet are left wondering why they’re not satisfied in sublimating their expectations – betraying their uniquely female biomechanics – to play the role of the New Woman.
That consensus is growing, even in Oprah-world, so what to do? What feminism has always done, move the goalposts and redefine the game. Men, for any variety of shameful reasonings, are cast as incapable of living up to the standards of being powerful, accomplished, and appealing, but even if you regret having married one, and possibly brought children into the world, you can still have a second chance at ‘having it all’ thanks to sexual fluidity. It’s not him, it’s the undiscovered homosexual you that’s been repressed all this time. Never mind that those infantile men are too preoccupied with youthful sexuality to appreciate your post-wall physique, there’s a world of lesbian women out there ready to deliver on the promise of powerful, accomplished, and appealing masculinity that your man is incapable of. It’s not that neo-feminism was wrong in promising you a satisfying life, it’s just that you were really a lesbian all this time and either didn’t know it, or were a victim of the Patriarchy and were repressed from it.
This is an excellent example of the FI’s unique capacity to morph itself to accommodate changes in culture, even when it was responsible for the negative outcomes. Another example is in Diane Mapes retrofitting her Choreplay message to align with the negative outcomes of a feminine imperative social push that it created for itself only five years earlier:
I can’t end this article without drawing attention to what I’m sure most of my readers are getting about the 5 year shift in attitude with regards to these articles. It’s easy to pass these off as some flighty progression in feminine self-understanding, but remember Diane Mapes draws a paycheck for writing these articles in well read media sources. She’s a media arm of the feminine imperative.
What we’re graphically witnessing is the fluidity with which the feminine imperative can realign itself socially to better effect its propagation. You see in 2008 the message to men (that resonated with women) was Fem-Up; stop being so insecure in your masculinity and do the dishes and laundry – the payoff will be more sexual access. In 2013 the message to men (again resonating with women) is Man-Up; stop being such a house frau and get out int the yard and mow – the payoff will be more sexual access.
In Choreplay the feminine imperative exercised a self-correction for a deleterious outcome of its own creation. Feminism, as a social impulse of the FI, is always a work in progress; it’s always a social experiment, but the Feminine Imperative being the socially correct default gradually evolves the failures of the feminist experiment into revised, intended successes.
People who can’t wrap their heads around the totality of the feminine imperative often conflate it with feminism. This is an easy mistake in light of the social upheaval that feminism has been responsible for since the sexual revolution. It’s easy to point to the glaring evidence that an acculturated feminization has worked into our collective consciousness, but I would argue that feminism is simply the latest, and most aggressive, social effort the feminine imperative has put forth in the last millenium. Feminism is the latest result of an ever reinventing, ever evolving feminine imperative.
If traditional femininity better served the feminine imperative (as it has in past generations) we would see a return to that social paradigm. As it stands in our contemporary conditions, a hybrid social utility of traditional femininity and aggressive feminism are now interchangeable to serve the FI. If gentille charms and a pandering to masculine courtesies serve best, that will be the expectation; if conditioned feminist social doctrines work better, that is what will be employed.
Further reading: The Feminine Reality and Fem-Centrism.
“If traditional femininity better served the feminine imperative (as it has in past generations) we would see a return to that social paradigm.”
Similarly, if being a gentleman and buying a girl roses and having a 6-pack better served the male imperative (gettin laaaaaaaid!!) as it has in past generations (like the 40s when being a hard-working respectable guy meant landing a solid wife),, we would see a return to that shit. PUA is simply a reflection of the female imperative.
“When my opponent expands I contract, when they contract I expand. Be water, my friend!”
@YaReally
“PUA is simply a reflection of the female imperative.”
Very true.
I don’t think many people at Dalrocks doubt the very loosely defined concepts of what you’ve coined as the feminine imperative Rollo. Rather most have issue with how the term itself has been used. Personally I find the term itself is like a mental sledgehammer. It destroys the walls that have been erected in the modern male’s thought processes byfeminism and catering to feminine nature and desires. After those trained methods of thought though the term itself doesn’t allow in depth thought or closer examination. It continues to be a blunt, heavy term that gets in the way of any… Read more »
In nature, the male is the reproductive servant of the female. You know, Briffault’s Law and all that.
Perhaps it can be said that what you’re calling the “feminine imperative” is basically Briffault’s Law applied to humanity – in other words, the idea that men exist to serve women’s needs and to facilitate their goals and ambitions, and are therefore judged by their willingness and ability to serve women’s needs and meet their demands, whatever they happen to be (sperm, resources, protection from harm and hardship, etc).
Not saying that I entirely agree with it, necessarily… I’m just trying to get an understanding of where you’re coming from.
Would it help if everytime somebody mentioned the Feminine Imperative, we added that there does exist a Masucline Imperative so people wouldn’t get so defensive about the whole damn thing? It’s just that the Masucline Imperative of having the majority of women be hot and be willing to have sex on command is common knowledge and you would be called an idiot for denying it. In fact, the MI is frequently mocked and joked upon, while it’s opposite the Feminine Imperative magically isn’t a thing according to most people. What’s so hard to believe that both sexes have an ideal… Read more »
FuriousFerret
Would it help if everytime somebody mentioned the Feminine Imperative, we added that there does exist a Masucline Imperative so people wouldn’t get so defensive about the whole damn thing?
Oh, sure, Men Do That Too! (MDTT) is always so useful in exploring reality. ..
western society is like a pair of scales where psychological jelly keep getting added to both sides to counterbalance the previous load of jelly that got dumped on. there is something solid underneath the jelly, that when on both sides of the scales with each other are perfectly balanced. unfortunately today the jelly weighs more than ten times what the scales were intended to weigh and are in danger of falling over, when they do we might be able to fish through the jelly to find what it is we wanted to weigh in the first place.. ‘game for the… Read more »
“Oh, sure, Men Do That Too! (MDTT) is always so useful in exploring reality. ..”
Are you serious? Men have an idealized sexual paradigm. They want frequent amounts of sex with numerous hot women hence the Masculine Imperative.However, it’s been shamed into the ground and the only ones that experience are either rebels or high value men.
Not to argue against Ferret, but I’d say there’s more to the MI than just poon. For example, we crave liberty and the ability to create. We’re also more into reason. I agree wholeheartedly with the amorphous properties of the FI, but with feminism it’s truly become an “imperative”. The FI has warped and infiltrated the church and conecpts like chivalry, but feminism introduced genuine coerscion. Before feminism, the FI may have prodded you, often in ways you didn’t even recognize, but you weren’t necessarily REQUIRED to go along. Now you are whether you like it or not. Family law… Read more »
@Martel
How has the FI infiltrated the church?
I haven’t been in that loop for about 14+ years, so I have little idea of what the situation is. If you’d enlighten me, I would appreciate it.
This is what Wikipedia has to say about female vs male imperatives;
“The male genetic imperative compels males to seek multiple sexual partners, while the female genetic imperative compels the female to seek the fittest possible male who will help with the process of bringing the child to adulthood.”
Of course, this only pertains to reproductive imperatives. The others are survival, territory advancement, resource competition and quality of life.
Another great write up, thanks Rollo.
@YaReally
‘PUA is simply a reflection of the female imperative.’ <–this
side note; listening to State of Union speech & Obama just said he's going to try to pass the "Paycheck Fairness Act"..so women can finally be paid equal to all men.
@ michaeltx
The reason men make more money than women is because they work more overtime, take less time off, don’t leave work for years at a time to raise kids, and tend to do the more difficult and dangerous jobs which command higher pay.
For men and women to be paid the same you’d have to overpay women relative to output, or underpay men relative to theirs.
@Retrenched
I agree. Though there may be a few abnormal businesses out there who still pay womenfolk less than their male coworkers, they are hardly a snapshot of the common workplace. I’ve had 3 different jobs over my lifetime so far, basically leaving for better if not bigger each time…only in my very first one (age 16-18, cashier + keyholder) did I experience anything that could come close to an unequal paycheck…and even that was probably a better example of “why you don’t let managers hire their friends”.
@ Anna
Guess you’ve never heard of the Promise Keepers, or Mark Driscoll.
Lucky you.
@Retrenched
Ah. Well, those people are certainly, um…committed to their beliefs, I suppose. Nothing I’d personally accept into my life or want my friends or brothers to believe though.
@Retrenched
Nope. No clue who they are, but I’ll google them now.
Someone else may have already asked this elsewhere, but is it the feminine imperative or the female imperative? Is this the imperative of all females or of a particular portion of females?
@ Retrenched “Perhaps it can be said that what you’re calling the “feminine imperative” is basically Briffault’s Law applied to humanity” That’s part of it. The problem is that even when you’re trying to explain it in your comment is that you start melding what can easily be described as feminine nature, selfishness, emotional reactions, etc, and apply them to society and politics. Instead of saying “it is the feminine imperative to react to the side that makes her feel better emotionally; especially when benefiting women. Men serve the feminine imperative by the self sustaining pressure of the feminine imperative”… Read more »
Rollo, I’ll tell ya, I have some deep yet soft laughs almost every time I read the truths spread throughout your discourses. Didn’t laugh during the military-themed and other solemn posts like the one on female love. Some of my laughs are autist, but that’s fine with me. You are a spectacular writer (and I read immensely). One can have the sense of something and maneuver accordingly, without explicitly expressing (even to oneself) what it is they are sensing. This has been the case with myself at age 16 (2005), I read Fools Die and added it up with my… Read more »
[…] left this comment over at Rollo’s, but thought I’d ask for people’s thoughts here. I’ve asked […]
Everything a man experiences, every social conditioning he receives from the earliest age, every accepted social norm and every expectation of him to qualify as the definition of a mature adult Man in contemporary society is designed to serve the female imperative. Moralist wallow in it, absolutists and defeated white knights existentially depend upon it, and even the better part of relativists still (often unwittingly) feed and serve the feminine purpose. In fact, so all encompassing is this reality that we define our masculinity in the terms of how well we can accommodate that feminne influence. Our media celebrates it,… Read more »
” The next occasion you lock horns with even the most well-meaning woman’s (or mangina’s) opinions about life, relationships, marriage, having babies, religion, etc. understand that her perceptions are based in this reality. She’s correct because her beliefs line up with what the framework of her reality reinforced in her as correct.”
Sharing some cold hard facts on things like female fertility and the declining attractiveness of women as they age is something that shakes that reality to the core… though of course doing so risks resulting in you being considered a misogynist et al yawn.
@Pechorin “Also, I understand peoples’ distaste with religion. Religion is humanity’s attempt of setting oneself right. Spirit led repentance and belief in the death and resurrection of Messiah-in body, by the Spirit, along with water-immersion to receive the same Spirit are the means of salvation.” This would really only apply to Christianity, not all religion. If you or others find “distaste” in this path, there are many otthers that may fulfill your spiritual needs more adequately. That’s what I did, at least. @Rollo “Satisfying the feminine imperative, achieving the ends of the female sexual strategy is still the normative condition.… Read more »
“Any other frame of reference is either utterly alien to her at best, wicked and evil at worst.” I told a friend about the man who recently deceived me about his age (he’s 54, not 45) and he called him a “fucking pig.” He then told me about a woman he met online who told him on their first date that she was ten years older than she had said she was originally. Could not she be called the same thing he called the guy I dated? I resent that it was okay for her to do that, but I’m… Read more »
“Which is why I believe that at least some of us would benefit from polygamous relationships. I’d think that BOTH imperatives could be obtained that way…the male would be able to have anywhere from 2+ women (thus satisfying the male imperative for multiple sexual partners) and the females would be assured of resources for them and the children (thus satisfying the female imperative). ” LOL. This already happens and is the main reason the majority of men are losers in the SMP. What you’re describing is a player with his soft hareem which women are more than willingly with a… Read more »
@Furious Ferret “What you’re describing is a player with his soft harem…”. No, actually I wasn’t. I was talking about honest to goodness polygamy, not some alpha PUA with numerous women at his sexual disposal (in this scenario, the alpha fulfills his imperative to sleep with numerous women…but the women get no children, or at least resources from him). Also, this is hardly a “progressive” idea, since this type of arrangement has been around for ages. It’s not even something *I’m* interested in, as I enjoy being single and playing around with my lover without commitment. I am also confused… Read more »
If traditional femininity better served the feminine imperative (as it has in past generations) we would see a return to that social paradigm. As it stands in our contemporary conditions, a hybrid social utility of traditional femininity and aggressive feminism are now interchangeable to serve the FI. If gentille charms and a pandering to masculine courtesies serve best, that will be the expectation; if conditioned feminist social doctrines work better, that is what will be employed. How about all the peri-Wall shamers and complainers get off our clearly inadequate, unmanly backs and look to the East. Innumerable millions of hardworking,… Read more »
@Furious: “So if 54 year old told you his real age, you probably won’t go on the date” Before this experience, I would have been wary of that, yes. But, ironically, before I even found this out I had recently changed my profile ages to 40-55. So, I do have a date with a fifty year old this weekend. In an unexpected twist, its opened up a whole new thought to me. I wonder if part of the reason I liked him so well was *because* of his age. I’ve been shooting for about a decade age difference, but, perhaps… Read more »
Rollo What you’ve described is effectively female and male nature interacting on a variety of levels. Then you have simplified it into something easy to grasp in your hand while you paint a picture of men and women’s “Ideal Dreams” at each other’s throats to force the other to submit so they can change the world as they please. Then you call one side the Female Imperative and one the Male Imperative. But again, these are simplified views you’re spouting. The mating dance of humans, of nearly all animals, is one of male competitions of power, prestige, and intelligence while… Read more »
Of course, its dishonest. Oh, I called him a liar and he blocked my number. C’est la vie.
@anna
you’re an outlier, probably a high-t female, so much of what is said about the behavior and thoughts of women won’t apply to you.
@itsme
Yes, I’ve come to realize that.
I have always been like this, though…even when I was little I never played with dolls/played house/dreamed of having a wedding. I loved playing with my GI Joe and Ninja Turtle action figures, climbing trees, driving my awesome motorized Jeep in the backyard, and running around with my dog, usually getting all scraped up. I was unpleasantly surprised to learn (in school) that “proper” young ladies don’t act that way.
Didn’t change me though…I’m still not feminine at all (unless you count sex).
@Anna: ”What you’re describing is a player with his soft harem…’. No, actually I wasn’t. I was talking about honest to goodness polygamy…” You may not want to describe the life of a PUA, but you are. Like Ferret says, the Alpha always ends up on top. Under a de-facto serial monogamous society like we have today, the Alpha does best, but when the institution of marriage formalizes the practice of having a harem, the beta is utterly screwed. I’ve described how that happens here: http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2013/02/05/vestiges/#comment-16132 Polygamy is both “progressive” and “regressive”; it’s been the preference of the sexually liberated… Read more »
The FI is also a bit self-contradictory, a reflection of alpha fux/beta bux. A more traditional family structure forced women to reconcile the two within their own heads. Each woman approached the courtship ritual with the idea that she’s only going to get to pick ONE guy. As a nineteen y/o, her tingle led her to the Alpha, but she was also a bit more likely to listen to her grandmother’s advice that the tingle isn’t the only thing that matters. She also recognized that as much fun as it might be to bang the stable boy behind the haystacks,… Read more »
@Martel
Yes, I realize the truth of what you’ve said, even as it doesn’t apply to my personal situation. I recognize that it pertains to the majority of other women…not arguing that.
However, it seems contradictory to say that “women are not satisfied with a FI lifestyle”, when just a few days ago I was being told that “a traditional woman is a happy woman”.
So, in essence, the entire idea of the FI is contradictory? At least, that’s what I’m picking up here…
@Leap, you should probably read The Hypergamy Conspiracy for a better understanding, but I’ll quote this: The Conspiracy that Wasn’t One issue many of my critics have is that in exposing these inconsistencies, these operative social conventions and the latent purposes behind them, my writing (really most of the manosphere) seems to take on a conspiratorial tone. I can fully appreciate this, and it might shock a few readers to know that I reject much of the popularized MRA perspective in this respect. I agree with an MRA perspective in a rational analysis to a certain degree, but there is… Read more »
Across ethnicities, and encompassing all manner of social diversity, this influence is so insaturated into culture, laws, media, entertainment, from our collective social consciousness to our individual psyches that we simply take it for granted as the operative framework in which we live. I realize this is a tough pill to swallow, because the male imperative does in fact intersect with the female imperative depending on mutual goals. However, the point is that the operative framework, the reality we function in, is defined by the feminine. I can remember first becoming aware of just the hints of this the first… Read more »
If we were to turn to polygamy as a social norm, we’d wind up with a bass ackwards, godawful hellhole of a society; worse even than where we’re headed now. A lot of alphas are bad enough as it is – you know the “dark triad” traits? To formally empower them to take a harem, you’ll have to disempower women completely – no paternity presumptions, no child support, easy divorce for the man. Some Alphas, the better socialized ones, handle it just fine and are not terribly abusive. But a lot of the other ones… well, what do you think… Read more »
@ Joe Blow: Right on. @ Anna: “So, in essence, the entire idea of the FI is contradictory? At least, that’s what I’m picking up here…: Depends on what you mean. The “idea” of the FI is not contradictory in that it describes a very real phenomenon, but the FI itself is. God bless, women, but y’all are emotion-driven, solipsistic, and see things in the moment, incorrectly correctly foreseeing what comes down the road. Women are different in appearance, age, and needs. The FI for a 23 year-old is about free contraception, access to abortion, and opposition to slut-shaming. The… Read more »
@Martel
Yes…I see what you mean. I understand what I was missing before, thank you.
By the Gods, womenfolk are confusing! Hot, then cold…left, then right…up, then down. It’s like a pot left on the stove that’s always on the verge of boiling over.
@Leap, the problem most people have with the concept of the FI is that they believe that part of accepting it necessarily implies it’s adversarial in nature. Hypergamy is ugly, but it is efficient. It is what it is, but like hypergamy, the FI can be contained and even used to the mutual benefit of both sexes. The binary response most FI deniers resort to is to presume that it’s an all or nothing proposition. So I get labeled as being divisive between the sexes, because it’s easier to throw rocks at me than it is to confront the reality… Read more »
Rollo I’ve read that post. I’ve read most of your archives. I would honestly say that I’ve spent more time on your blog and learned a great deal from it – probably more than any blog other than Dalrock’s and Roissy’s. Yet, I didn’t accuse you of believing in a conspiracy. If you think I did, you misunderstand the point I’m making. Rather, my issue is that your current definition and defense of Feminine Imperative as a concept has continuously become more emotional and conspiratorial in the tone of your writing. This has been a trend since you began using… Read more »
@Leap My problem with your assertions is that you are operating under the assumption that men and women are equals while as hard as it is to accept, I don’t believe is the case. It isn’t an easy pill to shallow in today’s cultural environment. Most women basically demand men to be superior and be their leaders. When men fail to step up to the task, the situation falls apart. Women don’t want men to be their equals even when they speak those very words. It’s all a giant meta shit test. If they really truely wanted men that were… Read more »
@ Leap: You make some good points here, but I find Rollo’s writing to be anything but overly-emotional, not do I believe it is likely to inspire such reactions in others. The example you cite on the male pill name the FI, but not in the conspiratorial sense at all. FI rules our culture; it’s just what we do, and there need be no evil dudes in dark rooms conspiring to make it happen, and Rollo does not imply that it does. There are laws to promote the FI (i.e. what Vox writes about here: http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2013/02/the-sluts-in-spite-of-themselves.html ), but these simply… Read more »
@ Anna: And if you don’t figure out and then agree with every little twist and turn every step of the way, you’re a misogynist!
@Martel
Sad as it may sound, I’ve actually been called a misogynist before. It was in college, and I’d suggested to a particular young…lady…that she might not have gone through 15 boyfriends in one semester if she’d not wrung each of them dry financially and actually cared about the guy instead of his wallet.
Didn’t go over well.
In a nutshell. The feminine imperative exists. It’s why every woman i ever meet who i tell “I will not get married in this day and age” loses their shit on me and tells me i’m selfish. I’m not reproducing children. I’m not adding to society. I’m not building a future. I’m not creating the next generation. I’m selfish. What i’m actually doing is denying the imperative to: Support a wife. Pop out her ‘have it all’ kids after the carousel Give her the option to rape me in divorce court Enable more into the consumerism and debt spending world… Read more »
@ Furious “My problem with your assertions is that you are operating under the assumption that men and women are equals while as hard as it is to accept, I don’t believe is the case.” Not really what I believe or am operating under at all. Like I said, they exist in balance. Males testing the women for submission, physical attraction, and health (the main values of femininity) while women test men for leadership, physical strength, and health (the main values of masculinity). In none of these categories are they equal, yet they achieve a balance through the interactions of… Read more »
Lurker Loving the debate here all *drops ninja smoke* back into the shadows…
It’s funny how most progressive women get gina tingles about wearing a burqa and becoming part of an official family with 4-6 wives, with ‘marriage certificates’ for all. What you don’t realize is those cultures are back in the stone age, the husband can beat his wife, and basically play his easier wives, or the wives who will take it up the ass, off you. Don’t like anal sex? Stay in your bedroom then, I have another wife who does. All cultures where the men get multiple wives are either living in mud huts in the hills and chasing baboon… Read more »
Brendan (novaseeker) has a great series going discussing his thoughts on FI (which he has named the feminine super-norm), what it means, and how feminism is just an arm of it. As always, he writes good shit-
http://veritaslounge.com/2013/02/09/the-super-norm-and-feminism-is-there-a-difference/
Also this one-
http://veritaslounge.com/2013/01/31/approaching-the-super-norm-identifying-perspectives/
How can one be aware of what’s going on and not be bring divisiveness between the sexes?
@ Nate Brendan is close to the same viewpoint as myself from reading the article. There are lots of similarities, with some small differences in thought. Two that jump out at me from those links: 1. He seems to be speaking solely upon how women’s sexual impulses are affecting laws, culture, society – everything he dubs the “Super-norm”. I would posit that this is a part of it, but also include other feminine traits such as tendencies towards more emotional reactions, how everything has to ‘feel right to her’ and tendencies towards selfishness (to name only a few) affect Western… Read more »
My question is this……. How did feminism better serve the FI than the traditional femininity? What was the impetus to drop the latter and push the former?
I tend to believe social transformation is often coincidental and snowballs without having a real plan, and unintended consequences abound. I suspect the FI is reacting to social change to subvert it to its priorities, rather than initiating all the change.
@krauser: I would argue that traditional femininity did better serve the Fi, at least it’s more positive aspects: men not abandoning them, more support in child-rearing, women feeling fulfilled at 45 because they’ve done what comes more naturally, etc. The impetus to drop it is complex and coincides with the influence of Rousseau. He was militantly pro-feminine and hostile to civilization, Western Civilization, and the individual (in certain respects–he’s pretty complicated). To him, for individuals to be free they must submit themselves to the General Will. (this is very brief and leaves a lot out; some might accuse me of… Read more »
The greatest lie of the feminine imperative is that of economic independence. It’s axiomatic that men are net producers of resources (on a total aggregate level) and women and children are net consumers. Women were never the property of men, they were the wards of men, who were their legal guardians. Why? Because WOMEN CANNOT PROVIDE FOR THEMSELVES, never have and never will. Technology, cheap energy and economic growth has allowed the feminine imperative to create a state buffer between the provisioners of wealth (men) and the consumers of wealth (women) without the incumbent responsibilities. And they continue to be… Read more »
@Johnycomelately “And they continue to be wards but of the state and not men.” <— As much as I hate to admit it, this appears to be true at least on a general level. In my 27 years thusfar, I've met so many people who were leeches on society…of these people, more than half were women. Welfare babies (when birth control is readily available), food stamps (and a Mercedes in the parking lot), a physical disability check (when your strutting up and down the boutique aisles in 5" heels), and a full EBT card (that you try to use to… Read more »
I just walked past CNN and the female talking head was cutting to a commercial with the statement/question (probably rhetorical as far as she is concerned) “Does America need more female leaders?” @Kruaser- What changed was reproduction. The “old” FI was based on men supporting and protecting women and it constructed a whole morality structure on reproduction. Once the pill and abortion made that requirement unnecessary then the “new” FI was possible and necessary. The more I mess around with these topics the more strange little nuggets of awareness come to bear. I did a Google search for “Baby Trap”.… Read more »
@Mark “So up to this point, I had assumed that all women wanted kids…”. No, some of us do not, though I truly believe that there are women out there who actually DO, and they are simply not aware of it due to a lack of introspection on their part…I can tell you honestly that women are usually expected to “follow their feelings”/ “trust your gut” / “be impulsive so men don’t think you’re mentally slow. Any female that goes against this is viewed as unacceptable or broken, rather than simply wanting to provide a more thought provoking (or correct)… Read more »
Another criticism of feminism is the plain old boring economic concept of division of labor. Two singles spend almost twice as much time doing errands, cleaning up around the house, laundry, etc. as a housewife does by herself. They also spend twice as much time at work as a bread-earning father. Two housing units need to shelter them whereas in a traditional family one would suffice. It’s also double the washers and dryers that have to be purchased, twice as many beds and couches and God knows what all else around the house. Food needs to be bought in smaller… Read more »
Rollo, you seen this report yet? LMFAROTFP!
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/02/130208182701.htm#.URuzGbt8x4Q.twitter
Anna I’ve weighed the pros and cons, spoken to people who have 9 kids and those who are infertile. I’ve determined where I want to be in 5, 10, 25 years and the most efficient way to get there…and, of course, whether I’ll be content on said journey. I reached the conclusion that I’d be most fulfilled by remaining self reliant, educated, and single without children of my own. Get where? I’m 55. I still smile when I think of my infant son giggling hysterically when I sang “I’m a little teapot” to him. My most prized possessions are a… Read more »
@Chuck
That sounds like you have a wonderfully happy and precious family. I’m glad for you, and wish you many more fond memories.
@Anna
I’m married to a New York feminist. So, not so totally wonderful. But not too bad at times.
What I want to know is did you build a spreadsheet to evaluate your life options? Come on, admit it, you did, didn’t you.
@Chuck
Lol, a spreadsheet? Dear Gods, no!
I do love organization, but even *I* wouldn’t go that far. That’s borderline ridiculous.
I used a simple venn diagram… 😛
My point is anything we do will be considered divisive because we are not playing by “their” rules. Up setting the apple cart, so to speak.
Mark wrote: “The falling marriage rate and the falling rate of birth, coupled with one of the key pillars of feminism being reproductive rights, makes me think women, just like men, wish to avoid childbirth.” Chuck asks an excellent question, Anna? Just where are you hoping to get? And what makes you think that decisions you make now will not be ones that you heartily regret in the future? You can’t make choices for yourself based on experiences you don’t have; that is why we have “tradition.” It tells us, from the experience of history, this is the best way… Read more »
@Kate “What makes you think that decisions you make now will not be ones you heartily regret in the future?” As I’ve said before, I (like anyone) can not tell the future. I am making the decision to be single and not have children because it seems to be the best route for ME. Obviously, I may regret it one day…or I could be thankful til my dying breath that I didn’t cave in to societal pressures and remained true to myself and my desires/ideals. In my next life, I may very well be a woman again, and this time… Read more »
@Leap Again, I realize there’s no actual institutions or groups outside of the political movement of Feminism, yet you directly say that someone, some thing, some where won’t allow something to happen. You are aware that the governments of Germany and France (soon Brazil) are outlawing paternity testing when initiated by the purported father? You are aware that there is a trad-con effort (complicitly aided by feminists) to ban hormonal forms of male contraception? I can give you links if you’d like, but it’s not just the Spearhead or AVfM that are writing about it; Cane Caldo and Dalrock have… Read more »
A female does not fully experience womanhood without children. That really can’t be argued. You might think you’ve reached an apex in some equivalent way, but you haven’t. There is no way to entirely replicate the experience.
@Kate As you wish. You know, it hasn’t been lost on me that you’ve not taken M3 to task on *his* comment above. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I have a feeling that if I had been dishonest, signed in under a male name, and posted that I was a happy bachelor with no interest in having children…you probably wouldn’t have batted an eye. Or perhaps I’m wrong. Do you tell MGTOW that because their penis has not been used to sire a child that they aren’t fulfilled menfolk? Will M3 never reach *his* life’s… Read more »
Aristotle would not consider a man without children as having lived a full life either.
No, I don’t try to argue with everyone all of the time. I’m not a feminist 😉
@Kate
Lol. No, I suppose you aren’t.
Well, I don’t believe we’ll ever agree on this topic.
However, I’ll accept that your motherhood makes you feel like a fulfilled woman if you can accept that I still feel like a complete woman without motherhood.
Again, who knows? Maybe I’ll have 12 children in my next life! Wouldn’t that be something? 🙂
I can’t accept it and neither should you 🙂 What is this talk of a next life? Are you a cat?
@Kate Really? It’s impossible for you to accept that we women do not share a Hivemind? You can’t accept that I’m happy how I am, despite the fact that I’m perfectly capable of accepting that you *are*? Wow…um, okay. This is starting to feel less like a opinionated conversation, and more like a introduction to some weird ass conversion process. Does *everyone* in your community think the same way? I’m kind of imagining you as a Stepford Wife now…lol. As for the next life thing, no I’m not a cat…though that might be cool if I was and I could… Read more »
@ Rollo “You are aware that the governments of Germany and France (soon Brazil) are outlawing paternity testing when initiated by the purported father? You are aware that there is a trad-con effort (complicitly aided by feminists) to ban hormonal forms of male contraception?” I was aware of the first, not of the second. Not really surprised by either, to be honest. If they ban male contraception here in the US in the form of the insertion who’s name I can’t remember, I suspect many men will either decide to get the vasectomy they’ve been putting off or get the… Read more »
@kate and anna
You girls should meet up and pillow fight in teddies. Be sure it webcast through a webcam.
@Furious Ferret
Ugh. For the love of all that is holy…no.
Just no.
My shift is beginning anyway.
See you in 9 hours, ta.
“Ugh. For the love of all that is holy…no.
Just no.”
Why? It would be more productive and interesting than the little cat fight you’re having now.
“You can’t accept that I’m happy how I am, despite the fact that I’m perfectly capable of accepting that you *are*?”
Nope 🙂
“Nope :)”
Winner!
It’s official!
http://pet.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pPETS-9490648dt.jpg
@Furious Ferret
Why? Because if I didn’t do things like that when I was 14, what in the world makes you think I’d act like a loon now at age 27? Also, I refuse to believe that another woman cares about the state of my uterus to the point of utter intolerance for any opinion that’s different than hers…therefore, I shall henceforth think of Kate as a creature that dwells under bridges and eats billy goats.
And I’d never have a pillow fight with something like *that*. 😛
Nice talking to you, Kate-Troll.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tov_8WsI6l0
moar!!
“@Furious Ferret Why?” Because Kate controlled frame and made you her bitch, that’s why. Let’s review, shall we: Anna: Me. Me. Me. None of the stuff you talk about applies to me. Me. Special. Kate: Reason. Reason. Reason. You are too young to fully understand your circumstances and don’t know what you are talking about. Anna: ME, ME, ME, I’m DIFFERENT. NOT LIKE THE OTHER WOMEN. Kate: More reason, More reason, Hear me out. Anna: NOOOO, ME, (MORE SOLIPSISM), Be condescending Kate: Stopping argueing and begins mind fucking. Treats Anna like the little girl that she is. Anna: Appeals to… Read more »
As you wish.
I’ve come to expect this from most MRA blogs/forums…any female who isn’t part of the traditional feminine hivemind is shot down and called names, because we are always wrong.
Don’t care.
I still support equal rights for men, and will still speak out against misandric practices.
Most comment threads from women in the manosphere usually flow something like this,…
Alright, alright. I was just teasing a little. No more arguing. Its a holiday!
@Anna LOL. Anna you came to this blog proudly displaying the strong independent woman meme and expecting people to support it. LOL. What if I went to jezebel and was like “I agree with most of what you girls say about women deserve careers, jobs and right, etc, however I love screwing around on my girlfriend and spinning a bunch of college co-ed plates. Don’t worry though, it’s all cool, I like women’s equal rights. Just support me ok”. What do you think their response would be? Do you think they would be like “You go Ferret. Fuck a bunch… Read more »
@Furious Ferret I’m the only career woman I know. Sorry, but I don’t know how the others act…I’m not playing dumb, I truly don’t. How do they impact the quality of your life? The manosphere is an odd place. Some of you guys want every woman to be a virgin til marriage…others want women to sleep with them all the time. Some of you think all women want babies and are sperm snatchers…others think that we hate families and are trying to kill the species. I’ve met men online who think women still need to be coddled in the home…while… Read more »
Apologizing is beta, besides the lapse between post gives me time to let your excellent posts marinate into my psyche.
@Rollo Thank you for being such a gracious host. I truly enjoyed your posts, and think you are a detailed and exquisite writer. If any of the bloggers I currently follow put a link to your page, I’ll quite gladly peruse it. It is my honest hope that you keep writing and enlightening others to the situation at hand. The inequality of feminist thought will decay someday, and you are playing a big part in opening peoples eyes to that. Though I’ll not be commenting on/subscribing to Rational Male anymore for obvious reasons, I simply wanted to let you know… Read more »
Don’t be a pussy Anna. You want don’t want children and marriage, that’s fine. Who the fuck is FuriousFerret to you anyways? You want to be a CEO, and you let me get under your skin. That’s bullshit. Suck it up and fight for your views. By way it’s not your content that lost the arguement. It’s your mindset and demeanor. You let it get you rattled and you went into mini meltdown mode. You want to make it in the true real world with your MBA, you have to do better than that. You want to compete with men,… Read more »
“Really not the way to win someone over to your cause.” I doubt that’s the purpose of the discussion here. We’ve all got our own not necessarily congruent opinions, generally based on the only real source of actual knowledge, experience. For instance, I suspect that my old foreign man’s ideas on many other subjects would make your eyes melt. But they’re nobody’s business but my own and I certainly wouldn’t expect anybody else to agree with them. Quite alarming, if that were the case, in fact. I didn’t come here for conversion, I came for information and possible explanations for… Read more »
Just to restate my policy here again, but I don’t moderate comments for anything other than spam and I have never banned a commenter (as much as I’d like to sometimes). The free exchange of ideas is what tests their validity. I encourage women to participate here because it exposes them to the same red pill ideas that enlighten men, and when they disagree (sometimes vocally and irrationally)the often further reinforce a point I or someone else was making. I will never run off any commenter from this blog, even my haters, because more often than not their ignorance helps… Read more »
wha, that’s it?? anna how come you didn’t use the testosterone powerups to level up your butthurt shield?
Feminists are able to maintain their leeching grasp on our culture because they have taken control of the emotional components of certain words. Everything is spun in their favor. It gives them that much more power over controlling the cultural narrative, while utterly neutralizing criticism.
http://welcometothelifestyle.wordpress.com/2013/02/14/ideological-linguistic-prescription/
Back to the op-ed. “For all their kvetching they [Christians] refuse to accept the feminine imperative as a concept. I realize the importance they put on having to reconcile a red pill reality with their faith, but they refuse to look beyond the narrow scope of the effect of the FI on their solitary religious institution.” @Rollo This is close but not fully true. Presuming you’re not a believer in the saving Grace of Jesus Christ, this position you’ve taken is common amongst those whose grasp of biblical principles is weak. The truth is that the FI is a very… Read more »
Talked about some of this and female promiscuity on some other forum. Some guy’s reply:
“Worrying about women’s promiscuity is a time-honored mechanism for keeping women down and making them responsible for all evil. When someone raises that, it’s a big red flag.”
The feminine imperative rearing its head?
@Jacob, I think the problem evangelicals have with the manosphere identifying the FI is that it steals the biblical thunder they used to be able to claim about it and want back now that people outside the church have seen the effects of the FI and feminization in the church that they themselves have been blind to for several generations. It’s like the message is “don’t tell us churchians about the FI, we’ve been on top of that shit since the garden of eden”, but the thorn in their side is that it’s the manosphere who’s graphically been showing them… Read more »
@Rollo I think the problem evangelicals have with the manosphere identifying the FI is that it steals the biblical thunder they used to be able to claim about it and want back now that people outside the church have seen the effects of the FI and feminization in the church that they themselves have been blind to for several generations. This statement takes an unnecessarily adversarial view of the church. THe Church isn’t blind to feminism or the FI, it is trying to resolve them into a biblical context. For the last half century or so, this has been difficult… Read more »
“I realize the importance they put on having to reconcile a red pill reality with their faith, but they refuse to look beyond the narrow scope . . .”
Well, that is, after all, what faith is.
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