The New Thin

new_thin

My Reddit Q&A on Monday generated a lot of good questions:

Ever notice on Facebook, when ever an average/fugly/fat chick post’s her picture you have like ten women (only women) chime in with their comments under the picture saying stuff like “HOT!” “you’re so pretty!” “damn you look good” when in fact she isn’t?!

Are women trying to make their not so attractive friend feel better about herself?! Or is there another scheme involved here of setting the bar low in order to boast their own attractive scale up.

I see, hear and read this constantly. What we’re observing however is a carefully constructed feminine social convention, and a feminine-combative one at that. By tacitly reinforcing the “good looks” of an obviously overweight woman with positive compliments, the latent message is that she doesn’t need to improve her looks to attract men. The truth of course is that she could be semi-fuckable after dropping another 15 pounds, but in telling her she’s hot ‘as-is’ the idea, in the form of an encouraging compliment, is to get her to relax and stay fat. Thus the complimenter(s) simultaneously feel relaxed in their fat.

It’s really a socialization attempt by less physically appealing women to regulate the sexual market in favor of themselves.

I can remember experiencing this firsthand long before the advent of social media. In the days I worked in the resort casino industry, I was in the lunchroom with the largely (heh) female advertising department and the conversation came up about how some woman in accounting was “too thin” or she need to gain some weight. I emphatically disagreed; I knew the woman they were going on about and she could’ve lost 10 pounds and still been overweight. The ladies lost their shit when I said she could stand to lose a few pounds and hit the gym more often. The hens practically pounded the table with their fists and the accusations of misogyny, and the old chestnuts about men’s “shallow” desires for the physical all flew wild and furious.

You see all the women at the table were as heavy if not heavier than the woman in question. I had insulted the herd by association.

The funny thing about body image is that most people tend to judge obesity based on their own physique. If you’re overweight and your regular peer group is fatter than you, you tend to think you’re “normal”. It’s similar to eating a donut from a box someone’s brought to work for all to enjoy. If one person is eating a donut it tacitly gives others “permission” to enjoy one too.

I was once at a distillery in Panama with a group of Dutch people I work with and a stunningly attractive Panamanian secretary asked me if I was Dutch. I told her, no, I was American and she said “oh, you don’t ‘look’ American. I laughed at this for a minute and asked her what an American ‘looks’ like and she said, “well, they’re all fat.” I took it as a compliment, but I had to agree with her.

Books and Covers

You can’t judge a book by it’s cover, but more often than not, it’s a good indicator of what the story’s about. An attractive cover should make the reader want to read it.

Women have far more rigid prerequisites for what makes an acceptable man for an LTR than men do for women. Women base their estimate of a man on his confidence, status, affluence, looks, humor, intellect, creativity, ambition, determination, decisiveness,..and the list goes on. Men’s requisites for intimacy? Looks and sexual availability, that’s it. Beyond that, you can make a case for any ephemeral quality that convinces you the girl’s worth your long term investment, but if she’s not hot enough to keep your physical interest, you’re going to look elsewhere to make up for it.

Yet what is the single most common shaming tactic women use for men? Painting them as ‘shallow‘ for requiring her to maintain a good shape and be sexually available. Men have far too much on the line in the long term NOT to be concerned with demanding the highest standard from a woman for an investment that goes beyond anything she could hope to genuinely appreciate or match by other means. For all of the personal investment a man must make in himself to meet women’s ‘attraction prerequisites’, it only makes pragmatic sense that his (physical) standards for women be strict and exact.

It’s really up to you to make the judgement call, but by no means should you allow accusations of superficiality influence your decision in that. As a Man, you are well within your rights to expect a maintained physique from a woman, considering the far greater sacrifices she expects from you. Would you leave her if she got fat? Damn right you would. Would she leave you if you went beta-listless-unemployed-alcoholic? Damn right she would.

All that said, what it really comes down to is the reason why this girl lost the weight. There are plenty of fresh divorcees frenetically working out at Planet Fitness in the hopes of reconditioning themselves enough to attract another husband – only to fatten up again once she finds the guy who “loves her for who she is”. Women who once were fat, who slim down are prone to this. That’s not to say there aren’t women who make a definitive lifestyle change and go from being a walrus to a Fitness America Pageant contestant and parley that into modeling or  personal training career, but these are the most rare and notable exceptions.

I should also point out that it’s a uniquely White Knight habit to publicly defend a woman’s body image insecurities in order to get the identification / affirmation strokes they believe endears them to women. I hear these guys parrot back the same lines women self-affirm when talking about their body shape or trying to disqualify a sexual competitor, in an effort to be more ‘like’ the women they hope to get with. The idea is that they believe they’ll be rewarded for taking the “fat acceptance, love-who-you-are” tact and be perceived as more modern or up with the right conventions, and that guy’s who actually have the temerity to say they prefer a tight body are the neanderthals – again, to disqualify their own sexual competitors.

The Mechanics of Sexual Selection

Whenever the ‘fat is OK’ debate pops up all it does is serve to further illustrate yet another feminine social convention. All of these conventions are sociological and psychological methodologies with the latent purpose of securing breeding opportunities for less than physically optimal women.

  • Point 1: Women know on an instinctual, biological level that, overall, men generally base their breeding selection on the physical conditions of a female. Hips to waist ratio, breast size, facial symmetry, fullness of lips, youthful appearance, etc.

  • Point 2: In order to compete with similar women in meeting the physical standards of a given demographic of men, women must create physical methods in order to compensate for this deficit. Thus they have make up, cosmetic surgery, high-heels, hair dye, etc.

  • Point 3: Failing this, sociological and psychological constructs are necessary to ‘level the playing field’ in the sexual marketplace. Thus, fat, out of shape women attempt to convince men to feel ashamed for wanting a physically superior female by converting that desire into shame. It becomes superficiality. Likewise, older women who’s sexual marketability wanes with every passing year, must create social constructs that praises the sexual prowess of older women.

Women have been trying to convince themselves for centuries that there ought to be more to sexual attraction for men than physical appeal, and for centuries this method has been thwarted by simple male biology. Rather than play the game better, they attempt to change the rules of the game to better fit their own limitations in a variety of ways.

The problem with the idea that “it’s what’s inside that counts” is that it’s what’s outside that arouses. All the “feeling good about your body” that a fat woman can muster is NEVER going to be an aphrodisiac or a substitute for having a great body that men are aroused by.

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Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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kay
kay
8 years ago

as long as you Men know fatties should stick with fatties. I’ve been seeing too many Men lately who think they can pull good looking womene and they absolutely CANNOT. I hope most of the Men on these blog are not 30-40 year old with receding hair lines, gut bellies with little money talk about how the are entitled to be selective.

cash
cash
8 years ago

Kay,

the whole point to game is punching above your weight class (heh).

yes, without game, a balding 30-40 year old with a gut and no money is reduced to jacking off.

with game, anything is possible.

Meade
Meade
8 years ago

A woman isn’t just a body. She must have a beautiful face to be attractive. Having a body is only half of it. If a woman has a beautiful face but less than perfect body- she is still more attractive to me than a woman with a fit body but an unattractive face. On the shallow level. But I disagree that a woman must just be attractive to male on physical. Personality does matter- especially in long term relationship. No amount of looks can make up a terrible woman. No matter how good looking she is. It will turn off… Read more »

Rooster
Rooster
8 years ago

@kay – hair loss and going grey are natural processes that will happen to a man whether he takes care of himself or not. Being obese is [most of the time] a choice. Some men start going bald and or grey in their early twenties. Are you suggesting they bow out of the sexual market place altogether or feel gratitude for pairing up with women who chose to be obese? Genuinely curious.

Rooster
Rooster
8 years ago

“No amount of looks can make up a terrible woman.”

I think our species surviving for the last couple of million years would prove you wrong there.
No amount of civilization, society or culture can paper over the fact that a good looking woman has a high chance of reproducing. Biology doesn’t give a sh!t that her personality is abrasive.
Check out Christopher Ryan’s Sex before Dawn book for further reading.

Meade
Meade
8 years ago

I beg to differ. Biology is only part of the equation when it comes to attraction. When a beautiful woman is a horrible person then she begins to appear less and less beautiful. There is no exception. Average women can be more beautiful with how they act. And sexy people can beyond conventional beauty. Also, not all beautiful women are good child bearers. A beautiful woman can suffer infertility. But I go back to my shallow point- that don’t think an overweight woman is unattractive. I think overweight women can be beautiful. I think a thin woman can be unattractive,… Read more »

Meade
Meade
8 years ago

KAY: What makes you think men in their 30s and 40s are necessarily past their prime? I am in my 30s. I dont have receding hairline. i dont have a gut. While I’m not rich, I certainly am not poor either. I think you sound as bad as some of these men who refuse to date women who are less than svelt.

you had it coming
you had it coming
8 years ago

This piece can only be described as fallacious, mysogenistic, offensive bullshit. Here are some of Tomassi’s main points and my response to them: “Women have far more rigid prerequisites for what makes an acceptable man for an LTR than men do for women. Women base their estimate of a man on his confidence, status, affluence, looks, humor, intellect, creativity, ambition, determination, decisiveness,..and the list goes on. Men’s requisites for intimacy? Looks and sexual availability, that’s it. Beyond that, you can make a case for any ephemeral quality that convinces you the girl’s worth your long term investment, but if she’s… Read more »

Stig
Stig
8 years ago

@ You had it coming 01/27/13-21:18 —

tl;dr. Tweet your photos, full length and head shot. Mkaybye.

DeNihilist
DeNihilist
8 years ago

ARGH!

{“Any offspring is good for the economy. [Recent] data from the U.S. shows virtually no children were born to women above a certain corporate level,” he says. “We have to make jobs more child-friendly or offer women alternatives, through health care, to preserve their oocytes [eggs].” }

http://money.ca.msn.com/investing/canadian-business/motherhood-postponed

T and A Man
T and A Man
8 years ago

yeah thanks kay… I think men here will match up with the best quality woman that their options allow. What we are endeavouring to understand here is how to maximise our options. That may mean many entitled princesses will get shunted down the list as we find that real women live in places like latin America, Eastern Europe and Asia… but that’s life.

T and A Man
T and A Man
8 years ago

You had it coming… you crapped on with “Well… if a man or woman is dating somebody purely on looks, I’d say that’s a bit shallow. Women aren’t specifically targeting men as shallow. We just call it like it is. If you are dating a person purely based on his/her figure or looks, you are shallow.” That really is the height of arrogance. Men are not women, gender is not a social construct. You have no place telling men what is shallow, or deep to a man. Looks, particularly weight are not shallow, they are very important, they impart traits… Read more »

M3
M3
8 years ago

Retrenched January 26th, 2013 at 12:01 am “You just gotta love how most women rate 80% of men as below average, and then complain that the other 20% are shallow when they date hotter women…” You know, someone should make a RedPill sphere book along the same lines as Unicorn Being a Jerk ( http://misterunicorn.com/index.php?/books/unicorn-being-a-jerk/ ) The book would simply be a bunch of Sphere observations with accompanying drawings that would being each and every little truth to light with such humor as only comedy can do. And think of all the money you’d make! Just remember to send me… Read more »

Adam
Adam
8 years ago

Men go bald and get beer bellies at age 30-40? lol

Adam
Adam
8 years ago

That comment was directed at Kay and her solipsistic projections.

itsme
itsme
8 years ago

KAY: What makes you think men in their 30s and 40s are necessarily past their prime?

her hamster.

itsme
itsme
8 years ago

@you had it coming

have you considered doing standup? cuz that’s some funny shit right there.

I’m the daughter of a CEO who literally came from nothing and worked her ass off to get where she is

all a female wants is to be appreciated and accepted for who they are

As a woman, I know what it means to make personal investments… So apologies for not spending 100% of my time working out and doing my makeup

and your entire last paragraph.

it’s gold, brah, gold!

Martel
8 years ago

I think “you had it”‘s biggest crapper was:

“In fact, most of the time, all a female wants is to be appreciated and accepted for who they are (that means not getting freaked out if you’re girlfriend happens to fart in front of you). If a man can do that he’ll be good to go.”

What dimension is this? Or is it only a different solar system?

trackback

[…] Rollo Tomassi thinks it’s to kneecap the competition. That’s got to be part of it. […]

kay
kay
8 years ago

Interesting. such defensiveness. Again I say…. Many Men are shooting way out of their league. I don’t know what kind goggles you are viewing yourself from but its not realistic. NOT ALL.. but most it seems.

kay
kay
8 years ago

@ Rooster, I do not suggest bowing out of the Market. I could not take a fatty knowing I work out 4 times a week and stay at my optimum weight. I know graying, receding hair line is a natural progression but you obviously have to step the game up a bit to compensate for that. Don’t be broke but expect the women you are seeking to have it together. somewhere a long the way its not just women who lost sight of themselves but Men have also. Everyone really needs to pick that mirror up and take a good… Read more »

Ton
Ton
8 years ago

Read enough online dating profiles and your learn what a load of shit the idea women just want someone to appreciate/ accept them for who they are

Sure they want that, and 465 other traits like minimum height, education, and income levels. Then the list grows from there

Ton
Ton
8 years ago

Read enough online dating profiles and your learn what a load of shit the idea women just want someone to appreciate/ accept them for who they are

Sure they want that, and 465 other traits like minimum height, education, and income levels. Then the list grows from there

deti
deti
8 years ago

kay:

basically what you’re telling men who don’t have power, money or status that they should just accept their lots in life, and they should simply give up.

What I find fascinating is that you’ve essentially proven Game points with your comments. In making your comments, you’ve shown that you — and women like you — are attracted to power, money, looks and status.

IOW, you’re a golddigger who wants a George Clooney clone.

M3
M3
8 years ago

in a world where a majority of women have super unrealistic expectations and find up to 80% of men ‘below average’ in looks… ..i’m supposed to wife up Miss Haagendaas for her personality while i eat right and work out 5 days a week? K.. all you gotta do to be attractive is not shove mcdonalds in your mouth and walk 30 minutes a day. touch a makeup, a dress. easy pickins. Guy has to work out 200+ days out of the year, eat properly, bust his ass to get educated, bust his ass off to earn money and show… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
8 years ago

@Kay, you should really read this post before you comment further:

https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/15/womens-physical-standards/

kay
kay
8 years ago

Basically this blog is for Men who want to feel better about themselves because they cannot attract the kind of woman they really want. Here is where you can come & bash women. I am not telling you to get out of the market place or telling you to settle or date fatties. I own my own home and hold it down financially. I do not need a man for that. You must match what I bring at least. If you guys cannot take simple advice of knowing what your market is. that’s your choice. Keep fishing in the pond… Read more »

FuriousFerret
FuriousFerret
8 years ago

@kay “I own my own home and hold it down financially. I do not need a man for that. You must match what I bring at least” Men don’t care. Seriously, all your degrees, houses and real estate mean nothing to guys. Men want a pretty woman that is nice. That’s it. You might be good looking but from your posts your personality is extremely unfeminine and thus unattractive. As much as you hate it, the fact remains that men who are attractive will always be put off by your personality type. You will never get the guy you truly… Read more »

Kate
8 years ago

Furious, I’ve got a question for you, if you don’t mind. You say, “Men want a pretty woman that is nice. That’s it.” If a pretty woman who was nice also held a degree, a job, and owned her own home, would that make her less attractive than, more attractive than, or equally as attractive as the “pretty woman that is nice.” I’m genuinely curious.

FuriousFerret
FuriousFerret
8 years ago

“If a pretty woman who was nice also held a degree, a job, and owned her own home, would that make her less attractive than, more attractive than, or equally as attractive as the “pretty woman that is nice.” The girls with degrees and all that shit were much worse than the girl that worked at a video store. Video clerk girl was utlra cute and a little dumb that liked nerd stuff and the degreed women were SWPL type. The clerk girl was better when comparing the quality in terms of how a man and woman should be. I… Read more »

Kate
8 years ago

” So a degree, job and house actual signal to me that this woman will be standard SWPL entitled girl that wants to control.”

Thanks for your perspective. ^This is what I was beginning to suspect.

” I guess degree and job is better when looks and niceness are the same but I haven’t been involved with anyone that fits that criteria…”

Yes. As you say, in order to achieve these things, generally, a woman’s nature changes, but, if it were theoretically possible, education and responsibility aren’t necessarily bad things at all 🙂

Retrenched
Retrenched
8 years ago

“At some point you need to be honest with yourself where your market is.”

Women especially need to look in the mirror after they get pumped and dumped and ask themselves if maybe… MAYBE… they’re punching above their weight.

“Gee, maybe he’s out of my league? He was able to replace me so easily. Maybe I just don’t have that much to offer men at his level. Hmm.. Maybe I should consider dating guys that don’t already have five girls lined up ready to fuck?”

kay
kay
8 years ago

Kate, understand these type of Men on are here to bash women to make themselves feel better. My Fiancee sister showed me this blog. It outrages me that Men come on here and put women down like this. Yet when its given back to them they find more reasons to preach to a woman. When all I’m simply saying is KNOW YOUR MARKET.

Kate, only be sweet & submissive to Men who are deserving me. Not these kind of schmucks.

Rollo Tomassi
8 years ago
Reply to  kay

Kay, have you taken the time to read any other posts here?

kay
kay
8 years ago

I guarantee that these Men who have to force a woman down does so in order to achieve those falsehood/fantasies they have in their heads. They have to feel better about themselves somehow. Bullies. I imagine they treat women very poorly and probably have to build themselves up while putting her down to feel good about who they really are.

Kate
8 years ago

Kay: Can you imagine what it would be like to never have known a decent man? Women would be pretty defensive in that case too. My thought is, give them a reason to believe 🙂

I get your point about everybody needing to know their level; its just that everyone thinks their level is higher than anyone else’s. Man or woman, that’s just our natural egoistic tendency.

Kill the ego and live in peace. I’m starting with A New Earth (Eckhart Tolle).

deti
deti
8 years ago

Kay:

You don’t fool us for a second. What comes onto the screen from you is “know your market”.

What you’re really saying here is “know your place”.

Translated, your screeds say “you are shallow little men who would have no hope of dating a fabulous specimen like me. You have no right even to exist, much less talk to each other about women. Get back in your place, little man. Shut up and pay for my birth control pills, my makework job for the Department of Redundancy Department, and my liposuction. Know your place, little man.”

Kate
8 years ago

It is possible to be cognisant of people’s levels and not be a shrew about it. Yesterday, I was approached online by a man who made me a nice compliment. After I thanked him, he then asked if I was only into college guys. I was like, what? No, I don’t want to date college guys. lol He said, your profile says you’re looking for a graduate degree/doctoral degree. I said, oh, yes, I really am looking for someone with that level of education. He said okay, and I said that there is a match for everyone and thanked him… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
8 years ago

Kay, the first reflex that women have when they encounter the manosphere is the common dismissives they’ve been taught to react with. Even the most marginal of criticism (even positive criticism) about anything that remotely challenges her mindset of feminine primacy is responded to with the standard boilerplate: “You think that? You’re all just misogynistic, 50’s throw-back, aging, balding, fatsos, with small dicks, posting from your mom’s basements.” The problem is that there’s something more to what you’re reading here that’s bugging you. You can’t be indifferent about it because it factually upsets your previous mind-state of solipsistic self-assurance in… Read more »

M3
M3
8 years ago

“I guarantee that these Men who have to force a woman down does so in order to achieve those falsehood/fantasies they have in their heads.” A’ight. Think it’s time to stop feeding the troll. It’s getting riled up. Getting ready to levy the rape charges against us beastly men. ” I imagine they treat women very poorly and probably have to build themselves up while putting her down to feel good about who they really are.” Yes, to treat so poorly as to labor at a woman’s foot, beck and call. To do the heavy lifting that allows you to… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
8 years ago

He may be a very fine person, he’s just not for me. The balance would be totally out of wack.

Only in girl-world is this inoffensive, while a man filtering a woman based on her weight is offensive and ‘shallow’.

Feminine Imperative über alles.

Kate
8 years ago

Well, Rollo, would you advocate that women enter relationships with men “beneath” them and then, consequently, destroy them? Its for everyone’s own good, not just the woman’s.

A man wanting a beautiful woman doesn’t offend me. If its offensive to want a smart man, then so be it.

You like to argue, don’t you.

FuriousFerret
FuriousFerret
8 years ago

@Kate “He said, your profile says you’re looking for a graduate degree/doctoral degree. I said, oh, yes, I really am looking for someone with that level of education. ” I was going to comment about your level of hypergamy. But I just googled you and now a lot of things surrounding your situation and your comments are starting to make sense. I suppose from your level of success and your business achievements that you really have priced yourself out of the market. When you have more success in the business world than 98 percent of men out there your standards… Read more »

Kate
8 years ago

I’d love to keep your sympathy, but that’s not me 🙂

M3
M3
8 years ago

Kate, just think of the reaction of a man said what you said verbatim, gender swapped. ” I was like, what? No, I don’t want to date landwhales of a woman. lol (She explodes in rage and destroys the computer is what really happens but lets continue…) She said, your profile says you’re looking for a nice “well rounded” woman who likes to cook. I said, oh, yes, I really am looking for someone with that level of femininity and pleasant demeanor. She said okay, and I said that there is a match for everyone and thanked her for reaching… Read more »

FuriousFerret
FuriousFerret
8 years ago

“I’d love to keep your sympathy, but that’s not me ”

Well I feel stupid now. Looks like you.

FuriousFerret
FuriousFerret
8 years ago

Hey, if that’s not you, some super business woman, why the fuck do you demand a grad/doctoral degree?

Kate
8 years ago

Honestly, M3. I never point blank said I didn’t want to date men with high school edcations to this man- even though its true- I simply reponded to his incoherent question with an honest answer. No need to feel stupid, Furious. Why do I have to be a super business woman to want someone with more of a pedigree than I have? I also don’t want to be with a smoker. I like people who are fit: mentally and physically. And, finally, as I alluded to above, I have no desire to lead men who can’t keep up around by… Read more »

itsme
itsme
8 years ago

Your fiancee’s sister sent you to this blog, I’m curious as to why?

her fiance’s sister hates her and pointed her here to cause her head to explode.

seems like it’s working…

itsme
itsme
8 years ago

If a pretty woman who was nice also held a degree, a job, and owned her own home, would that make her less attractive than, more attractive than, or equally as attractive as the “pretty woman that is nice.”

concur with ff, at best these things will do nothing for her smv, and in all probability will lower it.

Rollo Tomassi
8 years ago

Its for everyone’s own good, not just the woman’s.

A man wanting a beautiful woman doesn’t offend me. If its offensive to want a smart man, then so be it.

From a strictly pragmatic viewpoint I’d agree with you, but unfortunately in girl-world one of those perspectives makes a man a deplorable, shallow, prick, while the other makes a woman prudent and judicious. It all depends on who’s paradigm controls the social narrative.

We all end up with the people we deserve, even if sometimes that person is no one.

Kate
8 years ago

Ah, yes, the “you’ll end up alone” argument. Its very possible. In the meantime, I try to be useful without being used.

itsme
itsme
8 years ago

Well, Rollo, would you advocate that women enter relationships with men “beneath” them so this guy who you didn’t even bother getting to know further is ‘beneath’ you because he doesn’t have a college degree? and then, consequently, destroy them? wow, just….wow. destroy is what occurred to you. kate, a feminine woman can lift a man up, inspire him to be better. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THtv5VM5LSY I never point blank said I didn’t want to date men with high school edcations to this man- even though its true… Why do I have to be a super business woman to want someone with more… Read more »

M3
M3
8 years ago

“I also don’t want to be with a smoker. I like people who are fit: mentally and physically. And, finally, as I alluded to above, I have no desire to lead men who can’t keep up around by the nose. Maybe some women might like that, but it repulses me.” Kate, it’s absolutely fine and rational for you to want to select people you’re attracted to. By the same token, it seems like you’re trying to deny men that in the same breath. That men *should* look either to lower their standards and date fat women OR that they *should*… Read more »

M3
M3
8 years ago

“has it not occurred to you that there might be a substantial number of men who meet all of your other requirements but who may not have college degrees?” thats the problem when you live by a checklist 467 bullet points long. You might eliminate a guy who’s great at 422 of them, but you nixed him when he failed #7 on the enumerated list. Then when you’re older and not quite ripe.. you get mad because you have to settle for the guy who can only meet 37 points on the list because Mr. 422 points is now good… Read more »

Kate
8 years ago

Yes, itsme. That’s the brutal truth. I can know very quickly whether a guy is someone I can respect or not. The argument that other things are more important than intelligence is the woman’s argument that her personality is more important than her obesity. What other qualification could be more imporant? This is the ONE univerally accepted symbol of intelligence as well as an indication of a person’s grit due to the dedication/hard-work/etc. it takes to earn one. I understand your point and I’m sorry this is offensive. I understand that women can inspire men. I have played that role… Read more »

M3
M3
8 years ago

“ts for everyone’s own good, not just the woman’s. A man wanting a beautiful woman doesn’t offend me. If its offensive to want a smart man, then so be it.” Perhaps you need a refresher in the concepts of sexual rank and TheWall and how those 2 interact. It’s in a woman’s best interest to pick a little lower than her instead of punching equal or above her weight. As age happens, he gets better, your looks fade. He gets more options, you lose options. If the ranks are equal or he is much higher than you in terms of… Read more »

Kate
8 years ago

“That men *should* look either to lower their standards and date fat women OR that they *should* find all your accomplishments attractive” If this is what is getting conveyed, then I’m not expressing myself well. I don’t think men should lower their standards. On the other hand, doesn’t it seem kind of strange that a woman should feel almost apologetic that she’s got a stable job, can pay her mortgage, and got these things through a degree? I am in a tiny pool. A sixty mile search for age, non smoking, advanced degree yields about 30 men. And some of… Read more »

Kate
8 years ago

Thank you for the refresher, M3, but asking a woman to lower her standards in this regard is the same as telling a man to accept fat women and just help her lose weight.

“If a great man got there by himself, he doesn’t need you.” Exactly. You know women want men who don’t need them.

FuriousFerret
FuriousFerret
8 years ago

@Kate You won’t run out of men to be with, you’re thin. In the land of the obesity epidemic, being slim is worth it’s weight in gold. However, being thin isn’t enough combined with age for the men that you want to commit. I think Kate is a shining example of how much being thin means today. It of itself gives enormous power. Women that are slim never ever truly settle. I guess that’s what makes them easy marks for pump n dump. Whereas a man can improve himself later in life and correct the mistakes he was making, a… Read more »

itsme
itsme
8 years ago

@kate, it’s okay to want an intelligent man. however, This is the ONE univerally accepted symbol of intelligence as well as an indication of a person’s grit due to the dedication/hard-work/etc. it takes to earn one even if you believe that a man with a college degree is ipso facto intelligent, it does not automatically follow that intelligent men must have college degrees. i.e. those intelligent men with college degrees are only a subset of intelligent men. by instantly disqualifying intelligent men without college degrees, you’re discarding a chunk of an already small demographic (successful, intelligent single 40-55 year old… Read more »

Kate
8 years ago

Regarding commitment: its a scary thing. You want it in theory, but then you think about how it makes you complacent and the risk of a legal commitment and you wonder if that’s what you want at all.

Rollo Tomassi
8 years ago

Relevant: http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/12/14/womens-standards-crumble-easily-given-the-right-incentives/ I realize Kate’s getting off on all the extra attention here, but the dynamic Roissy illustrates in this post needs to be considered. There’s a lesson to be learned here. While Kate would have us all believe that a university degree is required to get her out of her pants, my guess is that given the proper ‘real time’ incentive this wouldn’t be nearly the deal breaker she’d like us to think it is. It’s not as if any of my readers need another reminder as to why using Buffers like online dating is a bad idea, but… Read more »

Kate
8 years ago

You’ll have no argument on that from me, Rollo. I am well aware I’m a sitting duck; that’s WHY I do online dating. I am trying not to sleep with the entire world, ya know 🙂

Rollo Tomassi
8 years ago
Reply to  Kate

Kind of ironic don’t you think? Online you advertise yourself to the whole world and decline all but the most elite. In the real world your cover story is fear of being a sitting duck, but I’d wager far less approaches (if any) are as forthcoming.

deti
deti
8 years ago

I am loving, LOVING, the exchanges Kate is having here. Kate has astronomical standards for men in the online world. Only a grad/professional/doctorate degree will do. But Rollo points out that in the real world, a real time incentive would crumble her standards and Kate would be willing to respond favorably to a man who didn’t meet her lofty standards. Then Kate AGREES, and says “You’ll have no argument on that from me, Rollo. I am well aware I’m a sitting duck; that’s WHY I do online dating. I am trying not to sleep with the entire world, ya know… Read more »

DeNihilist
DeNihilist
8 years ago

Kate, some of the most uncommo- sense people I work for are degreed. Doctors, lawyers, engineers especially. Thank God they have money, or their houses would fall down around their ears. Intelligence a piece of paper does not make.

Kate
8 years ago

“Kind of ironic don’t you think? Online you advertise yourself to the whole world and decline all but the most elite. In the real world your cover story is fear of being a sitting duck, but I’d wager far less approaches (if any) are as forthcoming.” Online is a safe zone. One is free to be themselves when they are relatively anonymous. Plus, its educational. This particular arena allows for a lot of honesty. Regular people can’t handle these truths. I don’t need to shock people more than I already do. ” Kate, essentially you’ve just confessed you’d fuck a… Read more »

deti
deti
8 years ago

“I want someone who is a mixture.” Once again: you want the unicorn. You want the man who is alpha when you want; beta when you want. You want the man who is strong and rough (only when you want) and tender and kind (but not TOO much.). “No, this is what I’m saying I refuse to do.” Whatever, Kate. The reason you want the grad/Ph.D. man is for the security. You’ll hamsterize yourself into dating him but you won’t really feel attracted to him. Then you’ll suddenly realize you’re unhaaaaaaappy and either end the relationship or make everyone’s lives… Read more »

itsme
itsme
8 years ago

Online is a safe zone. One is free to be themselves when they are relatively anonymous.

lolz!

no, one is free to be anything they want to be online. this is not necessarily themselves.

it’s ‘safe’ only in the sense that it keeps you safe from reality. which is fine if you only ever want an online relationship.

Kate
8 years ago

deti: “Whatever, Kate. The reason you want the grad/Ph.D. man is for the security. You’ll hamsterize yourself into dating him but you won’t really feel attracted to him. Then you’ll suddenly realize you’re unhaaaaaaappy and either end the relationship or make everyone’s lives miserable.” No. You’re not hearing me. I don’t need security from someone else. Therefore, I have the privilege of loving people for who they are, not what they can provide for me. This is a double-edged sword since, as we discussed earlier in the thread, financial independence, while a turn on to women, is practically a turn… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
8 years ago

I’d argue that you’re more anonymous at a club or a social setting than you’ll ever be online.

People think they’re safely anonymous online when it’s actually the opposite.

How long did it take Ferret to come up with the Kate Kendall site? Even if it’s not you, you get the idea.

deti
deti
8 years ago

Kate:

The man’s degrees qualify him as high status and worthy of your respect.

That’s what I mean by “security”. You want the security of being with a high status man and that he finds you worthy of commitment and is attracted to you.

The “security” you want does not provide goods and services. No. The “security” you want is one which affirms and validates your value, your attractiveness, and that a high status man found you worthy of commitment.

Kate
8 years ago

Well, I do try to practice safe cybering, Father Rollo.

@deti: Ah.

Okay, breaking for real now! A cheeseburger is calling my name 🙂

Rollo Tomassi
8 years ago
Reply to  Kate

It’s your presumptions, not your practices.

FuriousFerret
FuriousFerret
8 years ago

“I am loving, LOVING, the exchanges Kate is having here.” This is very interesting. The pattern with the women that frequent CH and the Rational Male and hell Hooking Up Smart is that they are simply trying to find a way to get alphas to commit to them. Look at Kate. She reads these blogs everyday and gets all the great information and still filters it down to what she wants the data and message to mean. A single mom in her 30s still has super high expectations even after knowning from Rollo and Roissy that this is a fantasy.… Read more »

deti
deti
8 years ago

Furious: “The pattern with the women that frequent CH and the Rational Male and hell Hooking Up Smart is that they are simply trying to find a way to get alphas to commit to them.” Exactly. Women like Kate are attractive enough for beta commitment. They can get alphas only for pump and dumps. They come to places like HUS and here and Heartiste because they are in a dilemma: The alphas are sexy, and these women want them for sex; but they won’t commit. They want betas for comfort and commitment, but they don’t want to have sex with… Read more »

deti
deti
8 years ago

Kate will never, ever find her Harley-riding, leather-jacket wearing, history professor. She’ll never find her nice guy who can turn on the asshole. She’ll never find her George Clooney clone who drops to one knee and pledges undying love.

trackback
8 years ago

[…] a current meme developing in the comment section on both The Rational Male and The Private Man where the female commenters are basically going to this […]

M3
M3
8 years ago

I wonder if the lookup was accurate. Are we sure this isn’t Kate Bollick?

Kate
8 years ago

Aren’t men looking for unicorns too though? I mean, we all want an ideal, but that may or may not be what we end up with. The problem with women marrying men they really aren’t attracted to is it leads to divorce. How does that help anything? So, what is the solution? And when I write about what I want, I am thinking of actual people I know- they exist. I can’t speak to any of this HUS stuff as I’ve never posted there. I’ve read a few articles and she doesn’t seem to be the devil incarnate she’s characterized… Read more »

M3
M3
8 years ago

@ Kate “The problem with women marrying men they really aren’t attracted to is it leads to divorce. How does that help anything? So, what is the solution?” Educating girls to stop having unrealistic expectations of what special snowflakes are entitled to and deserving of. Their attraction triggers are screwed beyond all belief because they’ve been sold the ideal mate in their mind from which they can’t escape. Alpha’s can give that to them, but it’s not in the Alpha’s interest to commit without one hell of a payoff a majority of women cannot/are not willing to provide. Tnkgrrrl attitude… Read more »

Ton
Ton
8 years ago

My new job will pay a little under 180k while working 45 days on, 45 days off yet I am unintelligent because I do not have a degree and am therefore beneath this woman?

Guess I will have to spend my money on someone younger and hotter

Kate
8 years ago

Go for it, Ton. To each his/her own.

M3
M3
8 years ago

“I don’t need security from someone else. Therefore, I have the privilege of loving people for who they are, not what they can provide for me.” Kate. Real question. What are you looking for in a man? Because i can find you a lot of homeless vagabonds that are pretty decent in the rugged looks department. You can love them for who they are without needing to provide for you. Then ask yourself.. why bother with a relationship and/or marriage? Your privilege is what holds you back. You focus on the top men who feel no need to do anything… Read more »

Kate
8 years ago

M3: Real answer. A companion I can admire. “Your privilege is what holds you back.” I KNOW! It always has. It has either put men off or attracted ones who wanted in on the family assets. What is there to do about that. Quit my job? Lose my house? All so I can be in a position to “need” a man? It doesn’t make any sense! You know my own family doctor said to me how motherhood so became me, was I thinking of having more children. She knew I was divorced. I said, shouldn’t I be remarried first? She… Read more »

kay
kay
8 years ago

Kate, they are going to argue you down about what you want..LOL. All the while adamant about what they expect. Its ok for them to do, not you. haha. My Fiancee sister directed this blog to me because she has been talking about these Manosphere blogs and red pill etc.. how Men trying to run “game” – its funny actually. My Fiancee tells her that they cannot do it genuinely like he was always able to do. Good Luck guys – keep running the game & may it pay off eventually for you.

Rooster
Rooster
8 years ago

“My Fiancee tells her that they cannot do it genuinely like he was always able to do.”
LMFAO! Let Mr Casanova-natural-game-extreme-edition join in the discussion. I’m sure we’ll all be fascinated and eager to soak up his game-wisdom. Hopefully he’ll regale us with heroic tales of how he wrestled Princess Kay’s aggressively defensive personality into the pinnacle of feminine delicacy.
Your guy sounds almost mythical. Almost as if he doesn’t exist.

FuriousFerret
FuriousFerret
8 years ago

““Your privilege is what holds you back.” I KNOW! It always has. It has either put men off or attracted ones who wanted in on the family assets. What is there to do about that. Quit my job? Lose my house? All so I can be in a position to “need” a man? It doesn’t make any sense! ” That’s bullshit and you know it. Being a mid 30s single mother that doesn’t accept her options is what is holding you back. All this my job and blah blah is the real reason is an excuse and you know it.… Read more »

Kate
8 years ago

I understand what you’re saying, Furious, but until I was 33, I’d only been with one man- my ex-husband. So, let’s not get carried away with this carousel idea. You are, however, perfectly right that too much alpha influence can make other men seem less interesting. What I need to do is just give things a little more time to heal from the last breakdown and then I’ll probably be in a better position to appreciate others again. I appreciate all the help from everyone today. I wasn’t expected to get into such a long conversation, but I am always… Read more »

kay
kay
8 years ago

go ahead guys & assault away. You cannot even pick up dry sense of humor of what my Fiancee was saying. Most of you are so defensive! Always ready to attack. Ready to put a female in her place so she will cower and hold you up on some proverbial throne of where you do not belong. You will never attract the female you seek. no woman will trust you enough to be vunerable to you to give you what you desire. Kate.. they continue to attack you. Put you on the defense. Making sure you understand you are nothing… Read more »

FuriousFerret
FuriousFerret
8 years ago

@Kate

I feel what you’re saying. America is a fucked up place right now for both men and women. Women aren’t these evil little monsters. They simply have been manipulated as well as men in being something they were never intended to be leading to a whole shit load of problems. Most men and women are victims to unjust social engineering by genetic abominations that wanted to make their status better bringing everybody down to their level.

FuriousFerret
FuriousFerret
8 years ago

@kay

Has your Fiancee read the site? Why doesn’t he read it and then it can critque it in person. 3:)

Kate
8 years ago

Its alright, Kay. The truth is, I’m not anyone special to those who don’t know me, like family, friends, neighbors, colleagues, community members. This is how the world works. It takes time to get to know and learn to value people. Until then, you’re just another body on the planet. Don’t worry. This has been cathartic for me and was probably more painful for my interlocuters than for me. (And for me it was pretty DEPRESSING.) You see, you have your fiance to talk things over with; I don’t have that go to person. You take people where you can… Read more »

M3
M3
8 years ago

Kate, I’m glad you’re still in it. I don’t think anyone here is saying you’re a horrible person. The fact that you are actually having a catharsis is refreshing, given what “we” normally see from our vantage point.. vapid, naked solipsism. We’ve all had our moment, we call it the ‘Redpill’ moment. Yeah, it’s depressing as hell when the world you knew gets pulled out from under you and you realize “Fuck.. i’ve been lied to all this time?’ At the end of the day it’s about knowing you need to make a choice, and be able to live with… Read more »

Ton
Ton
8 years ago

She’s a pretentious snob at best M3; reread her post.

Kate
8 years ago

Thank, M3. Oh, I don’t think people are being malicious. I’ve been at this discovery process for four years and I’ve learned a lot, but I’ve leared the most in the last year reading these blogs.

@Ton: And you are a materialist, my dear. Without knowing you, your $180 grand a year means nothing. People live well on a lot less.

@deti: I know you didn’t mean it to be funny, but I couldn’t help picturing a guy on a motorcycle with the back of his leather jacket saying, “Hell’s Historian.”

Twan
Twan
8 years ago

sorry if i’m repeating someone, but my ADD won’t allow me to read every comment. check this out, even being reported on nbc, a bastion of knee-jerk leftie-ness
http://todayhealth.today.com/_news/2013/01/24/16664866-fat-shaming-may-curb-obesity-bioethicist-says

Adam
Adam
8 years ago

@you had it coming “The funny thing about this point is that what “arouses” a person is in large part, completely culturally and socially constructed. A great body can be defined in a million ways by a million people from different places or a million people from the same place. How you define beauty is different from how I define it. I’m not making a huge paradoxical claim here, this is common knowledge.” Oh boy… I’m too lazy to do it, but could somebody link this deluded hamster to all the books and studies that blew this 20 year-old feminism-inspired… Read more »

Ton
Ton
8 years ago

I like my money, the courts gave my ex wife half my army salary for the reminder of her/ my life so it is a very enjoyable to have more then a few hundred dollars on hand. The difference is, I do not think those who make less money are beneath me in any way. That applies across the spectrum of my accomplishments. You on the other hand think those without a PhD are beneath you. I think that’s a woman’s logic thing. I have to family members with math related PhD’ s and neither think people are beneath them… Read more »

Kate
8 years ago

Well, I’m glad for you, Ton. I lost $140 grand in my divorce, so I can sympathize.

You may not consider those with less money beneath you, but you consider people of a certain age and looks beneath you. Yes, I consider people with a high school education *a poor match* for me. There is not anything necessarily wrong with them as people. Almost all people have value of some kind; the topic here is who one is interested in as a romantic partner.

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