The following dialog is from a recent consult (published with permission) from a young man, Adam, who’s becoming red pill aware in the wake of a breakup. I’ll let his quotes tell the story here:
My girlfriend broke up with me last month due to her want to find herself and her self-imposed reasons to remain single (she just turned 22 and I just turned 24).
The first consideration I’ll make is that both of you are far too young for a monogamous relationship. Your 20s should be a period of learning for both sexes. Unfortunately it’s becoming more common for guys to hear this and take offense due to this socialized romantic notion that an LTR ought to be some idealized goal state, but the truth of it is that an LTR in this period of a man’s life more often than not becomes debilitating in his maturation.
What young men raised on Disneyesque romantic ideals fail to consider is that a mature LTR requires responsibility, liability and accountability that limit a young man’s potential and paralyze him in the prime years of his life. These are the years that should be devoted to ambitions and passions that will lead to financial and personal success (i.e. college, career, etc.) and contribute to his peak SMV later in his life.
Too many men lament later in life that they should’ve done more in these years preparing for their own successes rather than becoming saddled in dead end relationships. They lament their lives that could’ve been once they realize that their SMV maturation happens after women’s peaks. Time and the freedom to maneuver within your interests are a man’s most valuable resources. As a Man on the other side of this I can tell you that there are few material things I have a want for now, but time for myself and my passions, that is constantly adjusted by my career, my wife, my daughter, my commute in traffic etc., is the most precious thing I can think of. Why young men who would otherwise fiercely defend their own independences would so readily and voluntarily give this up in order to secure the intimacy of a single woman is one of the greatest crimes perpetrated on men by a feminized, romanticized society.
Also understand that your Ex is going through a similar phase as well. Between the years of 18 and about 26 are the prime years for a woman to weigh her hypergamous options. I call these the “party years” for attractive young women. Generally they include college, but it’s during this period that women explore the benefits afforded to them by their peak SMV and looks.
The hard truth is that most women on some level understand that this period represents the peak of their sexuality and attractiveness and this is their best chance to explore sex and relationships without consideration for limiting the conditions they place on their intimacy. All women have an innate understanding that the older they get the less sexually marketable they become.
This frustrates young men (particularly plugged-in betas who internalized an ideal that an LTR is a goal state) until they come to the realization that the older a man gets, the more sexually marketable he becomes since this generally implies he has attained a certain amount of confidence, professionalism, status, affluence and a list of other conditions women value in trading their intimacy for long term security. At 22, these principles go unrecognized in women, yet their behaviors are predictable enough to prove that these conditions and understandings are in play later in life.
She complimented me when we dated for the 5 month relationship that I was the best catch she had found so far, but the timing was off in that she met me at a time where she was trying to force herself not to be co-dependent (she broke up with her last b/f of 1.5 years so she could find herself and remain single) it didn’t last long because she found me 2 months later and dated me for the second half of this year.
You were flattered by her compliment because it affirmed your ego-investment in LTRs as a goal state as correct. Your frustration is that her behavior and her stated reasoning for it confounds this ideology. Lets also consider that if she had a year and a half “relationship” with a previous boyfriend, a half-year with you, and she’s now 22, her relationship experience has been limited to adolescent socializations. She still uses whatever behavioral skills she learned in her adolescence. Not a good benchmark for validating you as the “best catch she has found so far” to put it mildly. Rather, this is a convenient way of “letting you down easy” in order to preserve her own ego and hopefully make you feel better for going off to do what she really wants to do anyway.
She was my first g/f in nearly 6 years and also the girl I lost my virginity too.
And here’s the rub. I swear, basic math skills are all a red pill advocate needs to pick apart situations; If she was your first girlfriend in 6 years and you are now 24, this would mean the last girl you considered a girlfriend was back when you were 18. Again this implies that you yourself are employing an adolescent social skill set in evaluating what course you think inter-gender relationships ought to follow. There’s no shame in this, I’m not pointing it out to put you down, but understand that this is how you and she are operating even if you’re unaware of it.
You also lost your virginity to her. Stop thinking of it in these terms, this is what I’d expect to hear an emotional girl say. Only women”lose” their virginity, this is part of the feminine imperative’s controlling of the language. When women ‘lose’ their virginity it perpetuates their vaginas as the precious prize while also continuing the narrative of default female victimhood.
For you it was the beginning of opening a new part of your maturation process since sex (even casual sex) always implies new responsibilities that must be compensated for. However I do understand your attachment to her due to this and the fact that you’ve internalized monogamy as goal state myth. We all have a life long affinity for our first sexual partner since they are the ones with whom we share this life experience – you never forget your first.
I matured a lot and unfortunately didn’t find your blog until too late. I’ve read all the articles online and now started reading the DJ Bible at SoSuave so I won’t get so screwed next time and be able to walk away sooner instead of dragging it out.
Good.
Do you really think she broke up with me because her reason?
No, I think she’s obeying her hypergamous biological imperative that the phase her life is in is dictating for her.
Personally, I think it’s a copout and she’s afraid of commitment.
This is, to the letter, exactly what I’d expect a girl to say about a guy when she is 30+ years old and ready to cash her chips in on marriage. The irony of a guy using the same jingoisms (“commitment phobic”) women use to describe the men they want to coerce into monogamy with them is an indictment of the power of the feminine imperative. Stop thinking like a chick and start thinking like an adult man with a firm understanding of his own masculinity. You MUST unlearn the idea that an LTR is the key to life’s happiness; it is not.
I think that she’d rather be able to have one night stands where she lives (bay area) whereas I live in San Diego.
Of course she would, she’s in her party years and it is what it is – so long as she’s mature enough to acknowledge and accept responsibility for her actions (doubtful). Also, this isn’t a statement on yourself, stop interpreting it like it is. She’s not a worse person for not subscribing to your romanticized conditioning of how women ought to want commitment. On some level of consciousness she understands the hypergamic opportunities this period of her life presents her with and her behavior is the result of this.
Will she regret this part of her life later? Most likely. Will she look back to you as someone significant to her during her 20’s when she’s 30 and ready to cash her chips out? Probably not, but this isn’t your concern. This episode represents a point of departure for your life – departure from your old adolescent self into a mature, Game aware Man. You’re unplugging.
What’s more concerning to me is that after all you’ve described to me, this half-year “relationship” is long distance. Are you kidding me? How often could you have had sex with her while you’re on opposite ends of the state? You’re pining over an LDR and my take on this is that there is no such thing as an LDR; you do not have a relationship with her, nor did you ever really have one.
One or both parties in an LDR are going to “cheat” – though I can’t really call it cheating since it’s simply behavior manifesting itself in conditions that aren’t conducive to what our natural impulses are. Adam, this girl hasn’t hurt you, she’s helped you. By breaking it off she’s given you the freedom you need to grow beyond these silly adolescent ideologies that an LDR should ever have been an option for a mature Man.
She’s an atheist whereas I am a Christian and that kind of bugged her even though I dropped some values to date her…
For men, sexual impulse will almost universally trump moral conviction when the opportunity presents itself. Again, no shame here, but it’s telling that you’d expect her to appreciate your having sacrificed some (loose) convictions for doing what you wanted to do anyway. You’re not a martyr for dropping any values for having sex with her and it doesn’t place you on some moral high ground that she should change her mind about entertaining an LTR with you.
She said even if I moved up north to be with her or her down here she’d still break up with me to “find herself” because of her major need to be single.
They very fact that you considered altering the course of your young life to better accommodate your idealized relationship with this girl by relocating to San Francisco ought to scare the hell out of you. Are you so optionless that a girl 600 miles away is a better prospect than exploring other women in your own area? I can’t tell you how many men I’ve counseled who’ve irreparably damaged their lives, made career choices they’ve regretted for decades and voluntarily killed any hope of genuine ambition they may have had by doing exactly what you considered here – changing their address to better facilitate a ONEitis hope that the one girl who ever fucked them would eventually become their soul-mate wife.
I just don’t get this girl. After a month of blackout and breakup now she’s really trying hard to be friends. I suspected her screwing a guy before she came down to see me, so maybe that’s why she called it off when she did.
So what? Spin more plates. If you had other potential women interested in you it would make no difference whether she wanted to play “friends” with you or screwed some other guy.
I was an AFC then, but I still spoke up for myself and stood my ground. Basically, I gave her an ultimatum.
Sorry Adam, but you still are and AFC or at least an rAFC. Ultimatums are declarations of powerlessness; by doing so you’ll kill any interest a woman may have had for you as this is the last resort of a lack of confidence. This is the kiss of death. You get points for manning up and speaking your mind, but it’s not what you said, it’s how you said it.
I said if we have sex then we need to be exclusive. It’s all or nothing and if she doesn’t then she needs to be out of my life because I couldn’t trust her with all the guys I knew that were trying hard to sleep with her.
For as noble as your intent, she will only interpret this as a supreme insecurity on your part. You’re not going to talk her off the cock-carousel, neither should it be your responsibility to do so.
Adam, you need to let go of this notion that you require exclusivity in an LTR, particularly at your age. It’s self-defeating.
You have to unlearn this misguided idea that exclusivity is a necessity at your stage of life. All the Game skills in the book wont help you get past this basic idea. You will only settle for the first girl to respond to them. My advice to you is to NEXT this girl and get out into the field and sarge. Stop it with this LDR crap, they are fundamentally flawed and are only exacerbated by the ONEitis you have for this girl and will fluidly develop for the next one because it fits your old paradigm.
I wish you had your blog when I was 24. Oh well. Better late than never. Still a good reinforcement for old fogeys like me.
Unplugging is a painful but ultimately liberating process. I’m going through some of the same things as Adam. I would say I’m recovering… learning game, trying to do more approaches, understanding the feminine imperative. Your blog helps immensely.
Rolo, honosteley. I’ve been following you for some time ever since I found you were pretty much constant in your delivering of good game/women material in Roissy’s blog, even when it was called Roissy. I liked you. I did consider you an authority up untill now. I find a once great commenter at the gentleman’s club that was Roissy in D.C. now devoted to simply regrugitate terms like afc, the plug, red pill, you name it. A bit of background on my person: I am a fucking beta, I suffer from oneitis. I actually DENIED MYSELF THE OPPORTUNITY to fuck… Read more »
I got fired from a job for the first time in my life a few months back and that HURT. At the time, someone told me that in 5 years I’d look back and see that my ex-employer did a great thing for me. 5 years later, I see that advice was dead on. That company is walking dead and I picked up an even better job and I’m doing awesome. Young man, she gave you a gift: she showed you who she really is. Get your shit squared away, live your life as a man, and in 20 years… Read more »
I’m getting into a similar situation now. Been together 6 months….both students. She’ll be away 2 months this winter and 3 months next summer. I will graduate , she’s got another year. The winter should be ok since we can visit each other ….. but summer after I graduate will be near impossible for me to leave ( unless I go on a working holiday type of thing) …. Either I ride it out till Summer or I break up this winter. Tough decision.
Rollo, I’ve always been confused about your advice on these matters. What about a LTR precludes success and improvement? How does simply having a girlfriend make one’s entire world about said girlfriend? I understand that it works that way for many men, but that seems more a problem of the men, and not the relationship itself. At the end of the proverbial day, is there really any difference between the (alpha) man that spins plates and the (alpha) man that has an exclusive girl? I’m not sure everyone needs to fuck around to learn the lessons. One girl can teach… Read more »
Take it from me…30 for a man who has his game, is in shape, and has a good job is like 19 for a woman. The world is your oyster.
Looking back on it…I’m glad nothing materialized in my 20s. I would have been looking at a LTR or marriage that would have brought nothing but misery to me.
@Alfonso & Vicomte:
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/10/14/dream-killers/
Relevant.
As correct as you are, Rollo, reading your essay makes my skin crawl. The first consideration I’ll make is that both of you are far too young for a monogamous relationship. Your 20s should be a period of learning for both sexes. Really? There was a time when a 21 year old was considered an adult. I was an infantry platoon leader (in the British Army) when I was 20. I would say your 20s should be a time when you’re building a life and a family with a compatible woman. Unfortunately for your seito this is no longer possible… Read more »
Understanding women is the key here. Women want the best deal they think they can get at any given time in return for minimum cost to them. Sometimes it takes two or more men in parallel. Most good looking women are on a never ending auction for the highest bidder at any given time. That’s just the way it is. Be ok with it. There is nothing wrong with a LTR as long as its on your terms. What begins must one day end. When either your or her interest goes away, don’t hesitate to move on. LTR is not… Read more »
@Hanldingtheredpill
Why break up at all? This is a question I wished someone had asked me when I was younger. Why not spin plates and keep her as an option. I bet she will want to come see you later. Do you need exclusivity from her?
“Adam, you need to let go of this notion that you require exclusivity in an LTR, particularly at your age. It’s self-defeating.”
This part may be a bit misleading, depending on what you mean by LTR. I would not consider an LTR with a woman who states she “justs want to have sex for now”. What she is really saying is “I am going to fvk other men while I fvk you and keep you on the hook, but first I’m going to explore all of my options”.
Hopefully I get to write this before a response is written to Alfonso. When I just read the post the above. I also got similar thoughts in how it sounds like. Fortunately your post allows me to focus on the related manosphere memes and what I think will be around the likely response. First, it is important it define the message and what the commentary is already praising is I think encapsulated below. 1. Which is the 24 year old man is too young and have too much to look forward to tie himself down to any single girl. Better… Read more »
Okay so writing a huge essay means getting beaten hard. Well, the Dream Killer response is related to some thoughts I put down. Getting a girl, even a girl who fits well and motivated by mutual desire tends to mean obligations (for example, every been-in or know people in the conflict of moving for an career opportunity with a serious girl). The paragraph that the scenario of the girl who act as a boon could be possible. Traditional writers implying that role of support. But like I said in that paragraph, that’s not a general scenario. That role is much… Read more »
Afonso Henriques… That was boring conversation. You are a loser whining about oneitis. 18 year old model? Just because she has some pictures on Facebook doesn’t make her a model. Shoulda tapped that. Your name looks Portuguese. Portuguese chicks are great for LTR’s. When I was 21 I was an AFC and got only average chicks. Yes you should persue the LTR if you want it. Tip: if she doesn’t want it move the fuck on and don’t become a stalker or loser orbiter hoping you will fuck if you stick around for a year. I moved to a college… Read more »
Awesome breakdown. I wish I had seen this when I was younger and I know a few young’uns I’ll be linking it to. It really is an unplugging mindfuck to realize an LTR in your 20s actually holds you back in developing yourself as a man.
Great article, hope Adam follows your guidance. There’s a world of awesome women out there that he should be experiencing.
Afonso Henriques, hypergamy does not care if Rollo’s condones or does not condones the cock carousel, it simple is
Pedro,
Yes, I’m Portuguese. I know its boring conversation and I was only giving my own example and extrapolating from it.
The 18yo model was legit. I don’t like many things about her and thus I consider her a 6, but if “she took a shower” she’d usually be an 8 with much potential to become a 9.
Your last paragraph is spot on BUT I need some self respect right now. Shit happened that teared me down, and I don’t go down for a bitch. So, now my main goal is to earn my self respect again.
To all: The thing is not quantity. It would be a lot of fun to spin plates and what not. Mind you, I may even call an escort or two, I have the money. Nothing of these matters now. What I’m talking about is… It’s an ethical question. Rollo said its okay to let yourgilfriend leave you and let her ride the carouselle. I think it’s not. And of course women have hypergamous tendencies. But is it ethical for us to use it as an excuse for bad behaviour? Is it ethical to counsel a young man to : Yeah!… Read more »
I will return with nerdy, detailed responses to all of you.
[Once again, you should really read this before you comment again – Dream Killers]
@ Alfonso
You cannot control others. We live in a capitalist system where everyone wants the best deal they can get. If she thinks carousel is the way to go, that’s what she will do.
You don’t have the ethical right to try to stop her and you can’t.
If on the other hand she is dedicated to you and vice-versa, there’s no problem.
Seems like Adam is having a ultimately good experience provided he has someone to tell him the truth as to what is ultimately happening.
Getting your ass kicked is often times the best teacher life has to offer.
You could have advised Adam to find another Christian, or perhaps a Mormon, who takes monogamy seriously and who wants early marriage and children.
“I said if we have sex then we need to be exclusive. It’s all or nothing and if she doesn’t then she needs to be out of my life because I couldn’t trust her with all the guys I knew that were trying hard to sleep with her.” That is something girls say. I’m glad you wrote this Rollo, I have been on the “You don’t need a girlfriend” bandwagon and pushing that for a long time. It’s such a crippling mindset that many men have, thinking that they need a gf or that they have to be in a… Read more »
@Alfonso
“Rollo said its okay to let yourgilfriend leave you and let her ride the carouselle”
“tells us young men that we have to let our pure girlfriends go and materialise the hypergamy”
You’re not getting it. You don’t have a choice. You gonna chain her up? You think she is really “pure”? She shits every day just like you, nasty, dirty stuff, not flowers.
Say no to the pedestal.
@Alfonso: “Rollo said its okay to let your gilfriend leave you and let her ride the carouselle. I think it’s not.” It’s not your choice. You don’t have control over this. You’re still holding onto the wheel. Let go and accept reality as it is, not as you want it to be: “I want to focus on quality. Simply, quality. Of body and soul.” To get quality, you need to be able to get quantity. Also you should start seeing a therapist/psychologist, you have a lot of issues going on that game probably isn’t going to help you get through.… Read more »
I’ll make it short Afonso. In the Dream Killers post, his last two sentences was “It is to say don’t consider monogamy until you are mature enough to understand it’s limitations and you’ve achieved a degeree of success to your own satisfaction according to your ambitions and passions. It is also to say that women should compliment and support your plans for your own life” (His emphasis). As I wrote very verbosely before, the his message is about having the best mentality to your happiness or at least pointing out the ones that won’t. So some stuff got left out.… Read more »
If you want it paired down to one sentence,..
“Women should only ever be a complement to a Man’s life, never the focus of it.”
Both Alfonso and Adam are making a mythologized, idealized “Quality Woman” the focus of their lives. It’s an interesting parallel when you consider the argument a lot of Game denialists use when they accuse PUAs of “living for women” in the plural sense, when they live for a woman themselves in a singular sense.
I feel sorry for Adam. This is the most bitter part of the red pill. When it seeps into your very core and bitch-slaps your inner AFC.
Maybe simply Alfonso has no dreams.
On a side note, I’ve often seen those with the least ambition in life getting the most pussy. Don’t have to have big dreams, tons of money, etc…to be a player. Hell, if you simply have a talent you’re passionate about, and make enough to live in a shitty apartment, you’re good as gold. Actually, the dude I know who’s slept with 200+ women lives at home still. He’s just very charismatic & talented at guitar. Weird thing is, he’s a Christian that desperately wants a real relationship, but can’t ever keep one going ’cause he bangs every hot girl… Read more »
Super post.
“The thing is, are you really telling ME that you condone the cock carousel?”
That’s the equavalent of someone giving hurricane advice being accused of condoning hurricanes, nature simply is, Rollo is simply giving you the best advice in the given situation.
It’s telling that most AFCs have a specific Christian world view, I have yet to meet a serious Christian who doesn’t have crippling mental schemas when it comes to women (I was one of them).
How did a religion of fierce masculine independence turn to pussy pedastalizers?
God damn is this depressing
Johnnycomelately — that analogy was fucking spot on.
YaReally — “to get quality, you need to be able to get quantity” amazing quote.
Afonso — hypergamy doesn’t care about ethics.
Rollo…
“Women should only ever be a compliment to a Man’s life, never the focus of it.”
I believe you mean “complement” — with two e’s. Look it up. Also, you’ve got your numbers mixed up: plural “women” with singular “compliment” (or complement) and singular Man. If you want this to be a quotable aphorism (the thought is certainly important enough), might as well get your grammar correct, as in:
“A woman should only ever be a complement to a Man’s life, never the focus of it.”
[Doh!]
Philalethes
Waht teh fuk? Du u relly hav to be a garmmar nazi?
But seriously, really?
For the majority of my teenage years I held the same Christian world view that some of the commenters here and the subject of this post hold. It took years to break them. Commenter Adam puts it best “hypergamy doesn’t care about ethics”. I really feel sorry for gents that have been socially and sexually stunted by some form of religion. Women are a strange and wonderful animal, once you fully harness and internalize “Game”, you will come to find that what Rollo say is true. Women should never be the purpose of your life. Godspeed Adam, I wish you… Read more »
I am sorry if I bother you all, but I will not regret it. I am warning you that this will probabily be a long comment. I will answer to you all thoroughly and the best as I can. 1) Rollo, I read your post about women being dream killers. I agree with what you wrote. I cannot pick one of your premises and say that they are fallacious. You really know more about women than most, you’re in the top 5% in this regard, in my opinion. However, I think that YOU are the one who is LIMITED. At… Read more »
Rollo, That I suffer from the dreaded condition known as oneitis is a given. About this comment of yours: https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/case-study-adams-lament/#comment-11317 I agree with what you say, but this wasn’t what spiked my revolt against you. Guy with a Germanic sounding name that makes me want to shove my foot up his ass, “Maybe simply Alfonso has no dreams” In that girly way that you’re thinking of, I surely do not. Women have dreams, men have goals. Are you scandinavian? I have found scandinavian man to be really, really feminised so that there are probabily somethings that will definetly be lost… Read more »
Some people may not like the message, but Rollo is spot on. Don’t worry about relationships in your teens/early 20s. I speak from experience. I got married at 21, it lasted 6 months. Not that we are talking about marriage here. You don’t know what the hell you want at 22, nor where you will be in 10 years. As a side note, whatever you do, don’t have a kid at this age either. Dating is fine, if you need regular sex and don’t have time to play the field because you are so busy with your career/education. But don’t… Read more »
@Chuck Hammer… I would say your 20s should be a time when you’re building a life and a family with a compatible woman. You’re absolutely 100% correct. And I wish it were still that way. But then the sexual revolution hit and women became empoweredⓇ–or rather, society began to grant them their own sexual, feral pursuit under the guise of freedom and empowermentⓇ. Game is appropriately named because much of its exploitative aspect is the Nash Equilibrium (mathematical game theory term) of this new sexual marketplace (SMP). It’s the male-optimal solution to a sub-optimal situation. But even as it’s sub… Read more »
Rollo, I’m curious. From concept to completion how long does, the average, post take you to create? Roissy claims that he spends no more than an hour or two on a single post. Not sure if I believe that. Not trying to be hater. My disbelief comes from the fact that his blog contains exceptional writing. [Kind of depends on the topic. You have to take into consideration that I’ve been contemplating and writing about what I do for over a decade at SoSuave, so most of my ideas and observations have been evolving over that time. It’s much easier… Read more »
Dr. Illusion,
Why did you allow your girlfriend to move into YOUR house? Are you aware that she could claim domestic violence, get a TRO, and stop you from entering your own home? From what I have read on the manosphere ( MRA part of the manosphere at least), it doens’t matter if her name is not on the property deed or lease.
Afonso — TL;DR
I hope one day you’ll find a girl who loves you for your honorable ethics and your blazing desire for romance.
@David Come on, my friend. You should not read too much MRA. I’m an electrician/instrument tech/instrument fitter/electrical engineer. I play with everything from 24v to 14,000v of electricity every day. I could die tonight at work if a mechanical linkage in a piece of 5kv switchgear sticks on me. Yes, women do royally fuck men over sometimes. But be serious. I let her move in because I work a lot and I find it convenient to never have to cook/clean/do laundry. As I have said, she is entirely submissive and perfectly happy with our arrangement. If that changes I’ll bounce… Read more »
@Afonso Henriques It’s been mentioned by at least two other commentors already, but I think it bears repeating because you don’t seem to have paid attention. Regarding whether women are going to ride the carosel or not… It’s not up to you. Again with feeling… ITS NOT UP TO YOU!! You can’t control it. If women want to ride, they’re going to ride. Feminist society encourages and supports this behavior, and is hard at work to remove any remaning impediments in the way of this lifestyle choice. You’re not going to be standing in the way of that, no matter… Read more »
I believe that Alfonso, Apollo, and several others are talking at cross purposes due to a small misunderstanding on Alfonsos part. The advice given was, if the girl wants to ride the carousel, do so. When her SMP plumets around 30, she’ll be regretting what she should have had and looking you up on facebook. I’m paraphrasing, of course. He seems to have taken this advice as saying: Wait around till she’s done riding and marry her. That is not correct. Nor are we saying you have to wait and marry a washed up whore, which Alfonso seemed to imply.… Read more »
@Jeremiah
Both of these guys have probably written hundreds of posts. I don’t think 1 to 2 hours sounds completely unrealistic, at least for Heartiste. Rollo’s posts seem a tad more polished.
Adam, Thank you. Actually, in my specific case, although I am simply below my onenitis in the sexual market vallue, I have noticed that she admires me for those reasons. And for being cruel to women we both see as filthy whores. In this day and age I was enchanted by this attitude of her, I simply couldn’t amass the crytical mass of raw Sexual Market Vallue (she has said more than once that she cannot take me seriously): One of my biggest handicaps while reaching for her is that I am simply not the type of men that would… Read more »
Paging Mark Minter, Mark Minter please report to this comment thread, thank you.
@Alfonso Sir, I respect what you are saying and agree with you entirely. I have no respect for a woman who jumps on the carousel. I am very outspoken about my views on sluts. I made it very clear to my LTR (she had just turned 19 when we got together) that I consider her a slut. She had been with 3 men before me. I told her the reason she could never expect a ring from me was because she fucked worthless assholes instead of saving herself for me (meaning waited for a man of value). You want to… Read more »
In the mind of a woman…is it even possible for a man to shame them? Women try to shame other women and that doesn’t seem to change their behavior. Since they have their ways of rationalizing any behavior…I figure the only shame they get is if they feel shame. Sluts will slut even if you tell her every possible bad consequences to their actions.
It might be best to concentrate your energy into other things than fruitless efforts.
Sluts can be shamed. My LTR was still a bit retarded when we got together. She is originally from about 300 miles away, moved to my are right before I met her. The 2nd month we were together, she went back to her hometown to visit. She txted me half drunk and said she was at a bar with her two single, slutty friends. I told her thag I hoped she had a good time. I didn’t answer any texts or calls after that. She was supposed to be home a couple days later. She showed up the next morning… Read more »
I apologize for the misspellings and grammar errors in my previous comment. I just got off a 14 hour night shift and I am commenting from a cellular phone. I actually have a degree in English and am very ashamed of murdering the Kings Language.
“It’s been mentioned by at least two other commentors already, but I think it bears repeating because you don’t seem to have paid attention. Regarding whether women are going to ride the carosel or not… It’s not up to you. Again with feeling… ITS NOT UP TO YOU!! You can’t control it. If women want to ride, they’re going to ride. Feminist society encourages and supports this behavior, and is hard at work to remove any remaning impediments in the way of this lifestyle choice. You’re not going to be standing in the way of that, no matter how much… Read more »
Totally agree. I think the shift in popular media towards appealing to women has made the thrust of tv shows and movies, music etc “teach” or condition men that in order to get their girl they have to be sensitive to women’s needs—check out the “Joey” character who is clearly an alpha dog but is portrayed as shallow vs Beta Chandler or Ross who are portrayed as the angry beta and the beta suffering from One-itis respectively. Don Draper is portrayed as a kind of anachronism, a joke. Sean Connery as Bond is a joke while the new Daniel Craig… Read more »
Rollo, how dou you break up with an LTR you live with? To me it seems impossible. The only time I feel I’m strong enough is when we have a bad fight, I tell her I want to break up and I feel content with it for maybe 5-10 minutes. But she starts to cry and asks me please not to leave her and everything feels so sad. It always ends with me explaining that “no, i didn’t mean it that way, I want to be with you”. The problem is that while this LTR clearly is not what I… Read more »
@irminsul
I know how you feel. But you just have to detatch. This is your life. You deserve to be happy. You need to put your own life/self-interest first. That’s all there is to it. Just do what needs to be done.
We are men. If we can march off to war, if we can bust ass for most of our lives to make money, if we can build everything we have built….we can bounce a snowflake. You are a man. Do what needs to be done. You don’t have to enjoy it. Just do it.
Irminsul The problem is that while this LTR clearly is not what I want in the long run, I do love her, and above all I do CARE about her, and she can at some times be a very good girlfriend. But she’s just not my type and I can’t honestly invest myself fully in a future of this relationship. Yet I can’t pull it together to leave her. It’s a pain inside of me every day and I feel my whole life is a lie, I’m faking everything. I’m 26 and in college. My girlfriend is a few years… Read more »
Afonso, I fuck 7’s sometimes (fucking a new 7 is better than fucking an 8 fuck buddy). I also fuck 8’s and 9’s. You talk all this bullshit and think all women are whores, except the princess that you want to marry. But she didn’t even blow you. Maybe it was your sweetheart that was riding me yesterday. First of all, models don’t look like 6’s and they don’t need a shower to become an 8. Normal people shower, which is common sense in a non third world country. You sure talk a lot of shit and assume a lot… Read more »
I’ve perused the comments and no one seems to have mentioned this yet. For those still hell-bent on an LTR in their 20’s, “LTR’s are quite possible and rewarding when hypergamy’s been satisfied.” When a female doesn’t think she could ever do any better than the guy she’s with, she’ll love him like no other….until he stops acting like he did when she fell for him, of course. Whew. More of a debate than I’d expect on this topic. I’m a firm believer no debate should last more than 15 minutes. After that, it should be clear no one’s mind… Read more »
@Pedro
Nice job. Alfnonso Henrique’s shtick was getting old. AFC white-knight betafied chode trying to talk down to everyone.
Comes here for advice but won’t listen and acts superior.
What a waste of fucking sperm.
Dr Illusion,
About this comment:
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/case-study-adams-lament/#comment-11349
kudos to you. I agree with you completeley.
I am not saying for men who live now to go all beta and believe in pedestals, as some people have implied.
But I can’t help notice that sometimes in this game thing and in girl relating things, it is the self respect of men that is on the line.
Girls only do what men allows them to. (female vote, for instance, feminism, etc.) (there’s nothing a girl can do that men can prevent them for doing, just ask the taliban.)
I can relate to a few of the things Adam mentioned and after growing so much since can see the advice in this post is pure gold.
Society/social programming shoves so much trash about LTR’s down people’s throats from an early age that this sentence sums it up perfectly:
“You MUST unlearn the idea that an LTR is the key to life’s happiness; it is not.”
Bob, “Just like feminists encourage to ride the carousel, a healthy society could encourage girls NOT to ride it. It IS in fact up to society (to men, really) to make it stop. It is entirely up to us. Social shame used to be the norm for divorced women, I don’t see why we couldn’t do the same for sluts.” Exactly, I know this involves a little of nationalism or patriotism or another ism I can’t remember but men *can* and *must* take control of the society. I know this is easily said than done but it is the truth… Read more »
It is as equally unhealthy to convince oneself that self-repressions are virtues as it is to think that unfettered indulgences are freedoms. There is a balance.
Pedro, I understand you are somewhat pissed at me. “WTF? I’m better than this guy and he doesn’t consider me cool?” Seems to be the way you think. Please, if my comments had not been so exageratedly long, I’d advise you to read them again. I am not a troll nor am I here to annoy you. I came here to protest against something rollo wrote and “demand” some explanation. It already happened. All the rest is just personal background hidden under the annonimity of the net and clarifications or readjustment of miss comprehensions. Also, please, don’t bother ranting like… Read more »
Question for Rollo, What about men who are 30 + and are interested in a monogamous LTR? Say you are 35-45 and you meet a 28-35 year old woman. You know that she has been banging alphas for the last 18 to 15 years. What do you do? Do you not form a relationship with her because she has indulged herself in her youth? If you do that, what woman these days could you ever get serious with? It seems to me men have to expect and accept (as shitty as it is) that women in a sexually free society… Read more »
Honestly Rollo, I don’t understand this last enigmatic comment of yours.
If it was for me, I don’t know why you think I see self repression as virtue.
No, but white knights such as yourself tend to make their necessity a virtue. Your ‘quality woman’ is a convenient idealization that masks your inexperience with women. I read this all the time, “I’m not inexperienced, I’m selective.” I would advise you the same I would Adam, you need to experience more women before you know what “quality” even means. When we meet a 40 year old virgin man, we don’t think “wow, he’s certainly dedicated to finding a quality, virginic and pure woman” no, we think, “damn, what’s wrong with this guy?” We think this because sex is something… Read more »
@Dean
You do not have to settle, sir. If you think she is a slut, don’t consider commiting to her (lifelong). Some men think over 10 guys makes a slut, some think 15, some think 20.
You know how you feel. You know what you find acceptable and not acceptable. Trust your own instincts. If Rollo tells you “It’s ok, marry her” or whatever (I know he wouldn’t, just an example) and you married her….would your life be any happier cause Rollo said so? No. Only you can navigate your own morals and ethics.
If Rollo tells you “It’s ok, marry her” or whatever (I know he wouldn’t, just an example) and you married her….would your life be any happier cause Rollo said so? I’m not abdicating my judgment to Rollo. I am just asking his opinion for evaluation and judgement. He has good insights. I think it is an interesting subject. Consider this. Game has been explicitly popularized since 2005 with Straus’ book. But even before then, Ross Jeffries was popular enough. I wonder how many women have been seduced with his “incredible woman” pattern or his “natural woman” pattern? At this point,… Read more »
These are indeed legitimate questions. May I ask how old you are? When my parents got divorced, my father was 42. My mother left him to party and live the life. In no time at all I was trying to sleep on school nights listening to 20-25 yr old women scream his name. I was 14. This may have had an effect on me. Lol. Wanting to settle down is understandable. I know I don’t like getting off a 12 hour shift and having to hunt split tail just to empty my sack. Is there any reason you cannot find… Read more »
[…] over at Rational Male about Long Term Relationships and Slut Shaming. Rollo wrote a good artice about a young man who came to him for advice. I certainly recommend reading the entire artice, so I […]
@bob Just like feminists encourage to ride the carousel, a healthy society could encourage girls NOT to ride it. It IS in fact up to society (to men, really) to make it stop. It is entirely up to us. Social shame used to be the norm for divorced women, I don’t see why we couldn’t do the same for sluts. Yes, a healthy society would encourage girls not to ride the carousel. And yes it is up to society to enforce the values it finds appropriate. And shame is an effective way of doing this. Here’s the problem though –… Read more »
@Apollo In all honesty, I see no reason to change anything. Red Pill Men pretty much have it made these days. For those unfortunate men.who took the Red Pill too late…that sucks. They got married, got left and got raped in court. My heart truly does bleed for them. But a man who discovers the Red Pill in his youth? He’s going to have unlimited sluts at his disposal, nail down a LTR with a woman if he so chooses, and navigate these murky waters like a champ. So, let it burn. Our duty, in my opinion, is to unplug… Read more »
@Dr Illusion
Change it, don’t change it, I think the question is moot. The only practical option that I see is to make the best of the circumstances we find ourselves in.
It’s an interesting intellectual exercise to ponder upon though. Knowing what I know now, would I want things to go back to the way they once were?
Rollo, about your comment http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/10/31/case-study-adams-lament/#comment-11386 I agree with you more than you believe, probabily. You say my pursuit for quality women is a way for me to mask my inexperience, or to excuse myself from getting more expirience. I understand the logic. I want to say that I do not agree but I see how dangerous it gets. I know I need more experience, and I get fucked up with myself for not approaching, or doing ridiculous approaches, but its a challenge I must face. But what I cannot do is to accept real rare quality girls walk through my… Read more »
Dean, I’d advise you to decide what you want.
If you’re want for an ltr with this one specific girl is so overwhelimg that you can forget her past “notches”, than go the ltr route.
However, don’t forget what beast you’re dealing with.
Apollo, “most people in this society don’t agree with your (and my) view on what values are appropriate. Thats especially true of those with the most influence over what other people think, namely the MSM, politicians, educators and academics. Those guys actually have very high levels of incentive to maintain the status quo. And they are doing a splendid job – try to shame a slut these days and the response is world wide slut pride marches.” So, you’re telling us, a la gbfm style, that you’re okay with Jews declaring open season over your ass and the ass of… Read more »
@Alfonso, I think I’ve enumerated the personal/professional reasons for a man needing to put off monogamy until he’s begun to actualize for himself what his SMV means in the long term for women. What I don’t think you’re grasping is the necessity for a man to experience a variety of women, and how that relates to his overall mastery of women and himself, but also how essential it is for him to truly judge a woman’s character if and when he is ready to become monogamous. As you’re probably aware, most men are Betas and by that definition do not… Read more »
@Rollo
Damn, son. You nailed that one.
I need to add one more thing here, and this is probably going to be contentious. I don’t believe men should feel they owe women much of anything, but you OWE it to your “Quality Woman” to have had enough experience with women to genuinely appreciate and admire her for exceptionality.
When you lack that experience, and then praise your idealized woman for being a pearl amongst swine, your disingenuousness is really an insult to her.
Women love to feel that you have high standards and expectations. It implies that they are high quality because you are with them.
In discussions like these, I can’t help feeling that everyone is, to an extent, just rationalizing their past/current behavior into righteousness.
It makes it incredibly difficult to discern what is actually best, but I suppose that’s largely subjective, itself.
Just an observation.
Alfonso, You’re describing a world how it “ought” to be, not how it is. And I’ve seen enough to tell you, doing the “be the change in the world you want to see” isn’t going to do the trick. Even Ghandi got shot, and racism is still rampant in both India and South Africa. All Rollo is doing is trying to guide you through the mind field by telling you where the mines actually are, not where you want them to be. And yes, while I see the benefit in reigning in women’s hypergamy, I got a question for you.… Read more »
@Afonso Henriques So, you’re telling us, a la gbfm style, that you’re okay with Jews declaring open season over your ass and the ass of the women precious to you? … just because most people don’t agree with you… MAN, HOW I HATE DEMOCRACY. This current generation of Americans shouldn’t really live in a democracy What? Jews? …..What? How the Hell did the Jews come up in this… No, what I’m saying, again and again, is that the question of how OK I am with all of this is moot. It just IS and we have to deal with it… Read more »
[…] Male – The Soul Mate Myth, Case Study: Adam’s Lament, Mate Guarding, The Fade […]
Rollo, “What I don’t think you’re grasping is the necessity for a man to experience a variety of women, and how that relates to his overall mastery of women and himself” I completeley agree with you. I grasp that. But maybe not as deeply as you. ” most men are Betas and by that definition do not have access to the variety of women which would provide him with this needed experience. For the greater part, they suffer from a Scarcity Mentality due to this, thus any woman who comes along represents an end to his loneliness/sexlessness and most time’s… Read more »
I don’t know if you’re still getting the comments, but still: Rollo, “I don’t believe men should feel they owe women much of anything, but you OWE it to your “Quality Woman” to have had enough experience with women to genuinely appreciate and admire her for exceptionality.” I understand where you come from. And I would agree with you. Hey! Look all those betas with no experience with women fall in love for any each whore that appears in front of them! I get it. I understand it. I would usually say you do indeed need experience with women to… Read more »
Apollo, Everybody knows the Jews are those strange guys who rule the world, aka alpha-than-you-who-despise-you-and-will-fuck-you. It is just what came to my mind. Sorry for the bad taste if you found it offensive, but I thought it was “edgy”. “If you have a problem, you either fix it, or you learn to deal with it.” My moto is, if you have a problem, then deal with it while you try to fix it, untill you fix it. Eventually, you can give up and just lead with it. I am trying to fix WHAT can be fixed, only: That, if a… Read more »
“I said if we have sex then we need to be exclusive.” Ack… You actually said that??? Are you brain-damaged? At your age you should be saying the exact opposite – heck, I say the exact opposite and I’m more than 2x your age. This is desperation to the max… You should be telling her that while you think she’s great, you are too young for “anything serious” that you still need to “experience life and everything it has to offer”. Put it to her that she’s going to have to work it if she wants things to last. That… Read more »
@Afonso Everybody knows the Jews are those strange guys who rule the world, aka alpha-than-you-who-despise-you-and-will-fuck-you. It is just what came to my mind. Sorry for the bad taste if you found it offensive, but I thought it was “edgy”. Really? I thought it was the Illuminati who ruled the world. Or the Rand corporation. Or is it the Bilderbergers? The saucer people? No, I wasn’t offended by your comment, I just thought it was a non sequitur. The difference between us, is that probabily you are a liberal and get pleasure from the believe that girls enjoy riding the carouselle.… Read more »
I’ve been like Adam, in terms of thinking a LDR is the same as any other relationship. I’m 30 years old, have many friends both male and female, but I’ve never been ‘with’ a female that lived less than 3 hours away, which basically means I’ve never been with a woman. My total experience with the opposite sex is as follows: 2001 – ‘LDR’ with a girl I met in a Yahoo Chat room who lived 400 miles away 2002 – I try ONCE to flirt with a girl at a music store but she senses my desperation and bans… Read more »
Theres a paradox in this text…
Everyone in the shame women for ridding the carrousel in their 20s and then you say that the 20s are should be a period of experimentations for both sexes(3rd paragraph)
Makes no sense…
[Judging Sluts
The Slut Paradox]
Alfonso, you have written a truly honest set of posts here; it is brave to not hide the pain behind bitterness and bravado. Those girls do exist. I was one of them. If I were to point you somewhere it would be to one of those nerdy smart beautiful girls that look like they are begging for a makeover. You can spot beauty without the decoration. When I met my husband at 18 he didn’t have a clue what he was going to do. his ambition isn’t something that I cajoled him into whatsoever, but the fact of having a… Read more »
The point about guys throwing their lives away to settle for the 1st girl who took them seriously really rung a bell.
Just re-read this today, what a great essay by Rollo. It hits home to me, even at an older age. He’s spot-on on everything he says, trust me youngsers, he just is.
The comments here also show me just how difficult it is to unplug yourself from The Matrix. I’m surprised at the disagreements with Rollo here. Not that one shouldn’t quesiton or disagree, but personally anyone who is seeking soulmates and LTR’s at 22 needs to seriously re-think things.
[…] essence of a bachelor’s life is that he maintains control of his time and his freedom to maneouver. This is how you feel in control of your life and avoid the sense of being harried, put-upon and […]
[…] build my new life alone which will encourage my adherence to red pill principals and discourage any future reliance on any singular woman for any type of support or […]