Homecoming
I had an interesting occasion to do a bit of social observation this weekend. I drove Bebé Tomassi to her first high school Homecoming dance and got a glimpse of the Ghost of Hypergamy Future. As you might guess from growing up in the Tomassi household, Bebé is an exceptionally attractive girl, and this is coming from a red pill advocate, as well as a proud father. However, for all her innocent charm and Disney Channel inspired understandings of high school social dynamics, she was more than a bit shocked by the dress and behavior of the girls at her first ‘real dance’.
As I waited in the pick up line of cars at the end of the night I saw more short club skirts on teenage girls than I see on most liquor promo events I attend. I wouldn’t go so far as to say they looked like whores (my daughter’s analysis), but I will admit to being somewhat taken aback by how closely these 15-16-17 year old girls resembled the early to mid 20’s women I see in my line of work. At a club, at a tasting, or a promotional event, I will admit I enjoy the eye candy, I love a hot outfit like any other guy, but something just didn’t sit right with me seeing these girls dressed for a high school dance. Maybe I’m showing my age, but it did give me some food for thought.
Later Bebé told me she didn’t dance all that much, because she was surprised by how the gym looked more like a rave dance floor than a homecoming dance. She’d gone with 4 of her girlfriends, but none felt comfortable grinding their asses on some guy’s crotch whom they’d have to see at school the following Monday. Bebé has been a practiced dancer since she was 7. “They weren’t even dancing” she explained on the way home, “it was more like dry humping to music I didn’t even know.”
Varsity Blues
I kind of had time to take mental notes of all this when I was waiting in the car line. On SoSuave we have a high school forum (which I regrettably haven’t had much time to participate in lately), and when I do take the time to give advice there, the dynamic is drastically different for the young men there than the mid 20’s, 30’s and mature men I generally counsel. The reason for this dynamic shift is due to the fact that in women’s pluralistic sexual strategies, the long term side of that pluralism is practically nonexistent.
It’s very difficult for a teenage boy to display higher value beyond physical prowess and conveying a confident Alpha dominant attitude. Beyond maybe owning a car or truck, a teenage guy’s SMV is based almost entirely upon his physical presence and/or performance. Teenage girls only really care about how cute/hawt! a teenage guy is. It’s a Game of raw, Darwinistic tingles for adolescent girls, because even if they had some rudimentary appreciation for a guy’s intrinsic value, all of their security needs are more or less provided for by there parent(s).
From the sexual pluralism side, girls don’t develop an appreciation (or attraction) of men fulfilling that long-term security imperative until well into their mid to late 20’s. Throughout high school and through college, via their Fathers or the state’s provisioning, the security side of this sexual pluralism (the Good Dad attraction) is satisfied to varying degrees.
Short Terms
As I outlined in Schedules of Mating, hypergamy dictates women secure (commitment from) the best male exhibiting the traits of both genetics (short term breeding) and parental investment (long term provisioning), but rarely do the best of these traits exist in the same man. Then it hit me as I waited in that car line; these westernized teenage girls and their college age sisters, to a greater degree, have this long term part of their sexual plurality accounted for – or at least accounted for well enough that their primary sexual strategy focus is mostly fixated the short term breeding model.
Under such conditions ‘gina tingles preempt long term security concerns. So the logical next step is for girls to develop a sexually competitive strategy with other girls around hooking up with the highest value Alpha their looks can arouse. That isn’t to disqualify the attractiveness of intrinsic qualities (especially as a woman approaches the Wall), only that extrinsic qualities hold a higher prioritization. Thus, with the long term side of sexual plurality almost a non-issue, we see girls at earlier and earlier ages, learn to eroticize (not sexualize) themselves to be better prepared for that competition.
Long Terms
Rational reader, Wesley Dabney had some interesting input on Up the Alpha that dovetails nicely into this dynamic:
we can disagree all you want but that won’t make it any less true. a healthy woman’s central emotion is love. if you return that love to her, she will love you back and be faithful. no alpha can crack that connection. however, most men today have been so damaged by the sexual market place they are incapable of showing a woman the love they need to commit resulting in what you see today.
I’d advise anyone of this interpretation of women’s nature to read these posts first to get a better understanding of how women love (in this order):
Wes, I have no doubt that your personal experience with your girlfriend’s love might lead you to think it contradicts what I’ve detailed in these posts, but she, like all women (including Mrs. Tomassi), loves opportunistically. I’ll explain, but don’t take this as an insult about you or your girlfriend:
I had a hard childhood. i have ptsd and anger management issues. my g/f makes more money than me.. etc etc.. according to many here.. she’s prime bait to be taken away from me by someone with higher status. however, she has proven to me that won’t happen. i put her through hell and she stayed by my side. i got lucky though and i know that.
The fact that you did put her ‘through’ hell’ is exactly why she’ll stay with you. After looking at your profile pic and FaceBook, from a physical standpoint, I’d estimate your SMV at least 2 points higher than her. Again, just being purely analytical, I’d put you at about an 8 and her about a 6 and this imbalance is exactly where Roissy has posited that ‘ real love’ exists between men and women. Your higher SMV provides you with default dominance.
Just from perusing your profile I get the impression that you enforce (maybe subconsciously) an Alpha dominance (anger issues), but this only contributes to her secure attachement to you. Your deficit in that she makes more money than you is sublimated by your own SMV. When women on some peripheral level of consciousness, doubt they can do better than the guy they’re with, hypergamy is satisfied. This is precisely why divorce rates level off progressively with age – post-Wall women can’t afford to reinsert themselves back into single life without a lot of motivation. A restart after the Wall is impractical, thus the rationalization hamster self-convinces women that her attraction cues are really her arousal cues.
All of this however simply proves that women love opportunistically. If Wes didn’t have the counterbalancing qualities to make him 2 points higher in SMV I doubt we’d be having this conversation. Women’s emotional center (if there is such a thing) isn’t love, but security. At its core, Hypergamy is an issue of optimized security.
Balancing Hypergamy
Security comes in a lot of different forms; financial, emotional, familial, etc. When a woman has established a base line of security for herself in one of these forms, other forms take precedent. So for a woman to make herself (or be by default) more or less financially independent, her impetus will be to find a guy who satisfies that hypergamic need of Alpha dominance and sexual prowess. Thus the hawt guy, with Alpha swagger outclasses the boring beta with equitable wealth to her own. Even a beta of higher socioeconomic status wont stimulate a woman who can comparatively and contextually assess that the Alpha she’s committed to, though lower on a socio-econ level, is still a better hypergamic match because his Alpha impact has left a long term impression on her (i.e a potential Alpha Widow).
You can also find parallels to this in the Cougar Effect. Past-prime women with their financial needs met by divorce settlements, child support and alimony will tend to look for the hot young(er) guy with whom she can satisfy the sexual short term strategy that a long term prospect can’t offset for her because she’s already provided for.
One important fact about Feminine Hypergamy is that it applies to both sides of a woman’s sexual pluralism. “Alpha fucks and Beta bucks” is a useful euphemism, but hypergamy applies to both of these instances and seeks a balance. It’s also important to understand that, while hypergamy may not care about much of anything, it does seek its own level. Despite social media and the feminine imperative’s attempts to convince a woman otherwise, to some limbic degree, women are aware of their own SMV. Hypergamy wants an optimized state, but that impulse is mitigated by the realities of her capacity to attain it.
Damn. So?. . . . Jeeze. At first I didn’t understand where you were going but, then it hit me before the last paragraph came up… Security. Basically, its all about Security to some degree when it comes to them… Rather Emotional, Financial, Familial, etc…. Damn. I feel like that “Guy”, that just watched a classic movie like “American Beauty”, or “The Godfather”, an wants to talk about it with someone as if it had just been released. Ha. Basically, I’m late an, I’m sure this “Security” aspect has already been figured out by many on here. Damn you Rollo.… Read more »
Even if you found the blue pill…why would you want back?
Nah. I was just making a joke about “Finding it”. But, it would be interesting to see how I was back then VS Now. I’m sure I would Cringe an even laugh at the things an actions I was doing… Its hard to even enjoy a classic Teen type of movie now without going “Oh c’mon. She isn’t interested in you. Friendzone in 5, 4, 3. . . ” Ha…
Rollo, regarding the thrust of this theorem, let me see if I understand you correctly: both alpha and beta strategies can generate hypergamous instincts, but the alpha hypergamy will generally predominate. Meaning, if a woman has a beta husband, and an alpha lover, the situation will remain stable, but if a more financially viable beta provider comes along, she may exhibit hypergamy by jumping up to the higher level beta provider, but will probably also keep the alpha lover on the side. I think this is what you mean, and I have observed this phenomenon on a few occasions. This… Read more »
Your intro resembles many social conservatives articles and blog posts – including those in the manosphere – of how young women now both dance and dress increasingly provocatively. This one stands different where the analysis. You delve that the forces that feeds this is the female drive in an environment where the security is met. With the girls going hard for the cute/hawtness, this leads to the increasing eroticism (why not call it sexualization? I don’t see the difference between the two words) in both behavior and age. But what about the typical social conservative commentator? The usually line is… Read more »
I think this post illustrates exactly why most of you are fucked. When a woman has some baseline of economic security then her priorities will exactly shift into short term mating schedule and physical attributes. It is my opinion that attractive women get helped along in their early life, in school and on the job and will almost all have financial security without men. And the demographics are walking against men when intrinsic qualities become meaningless. Roosh had a post from 2008 back before he hit the road for foreign countries. He assumed that 10% of women 18-33 have an… Read more »
Another extension of the point made that young women (up to 25-ish) don’t need to worry about their (financial) security can be seen amongst the student populace in Europe. Most notable in the countries with well established social securities. At university most girls (18-26) still seem to be guided solely by hot guy gina tingles, just as their young teenage selfs. As all students they get their monthly government allowance, often supplemented by some parental financial support, which takes care of most housing, food and clothing needs. Leaving plenty of room for partying and gawking over hot ‘alpha’ males. From… Read more »
We live in a world where women can do whatever they want and men sit back and let them. Either by choice (pedestal) or fear (the government).
Personally I think this was all set up anyway. I must say it is a very effective way to depopulate the planet.
@ Mark
You know why your 40 year old ex can get a guy….because there are so many guys hard up out there that even a 40 year old woman giving them attention is their heaven.
It’s also why pigs with terrible attitudes can nab a man. When you are desperate for any female attention even vinegar can taste like honey.
The best part of that picture, Rollo, is the kid holding the flowers in the background with that disgruntled expression on his face.
That says volumes
[Every picture tells a story.]
The best part of that picture, Rollo, is the kid holding the flowers in the background with that disgruntled expression on his face.
Ha…I noticed that too. Kind of disturbing actually…kind of has that omega future shooting spree look
Rollo has grasped the nettle. I wouldn’t go so far as to say they looked like whores (my daughter’s analysis), but I will admit to being somewhat taken aback by how closely these 15-16-17 year old girls resembled the early to mid 20′s women I see in my line of work. At a club, at a tasting, or a promotional event, I will admit I enjoy the eye candy, I love a hot outfit like any other guy, but something just didn’t sit right with me seeing these girls dressed for a high school dance. Maybe I’m showing my age,… Read more »
@ Rollo to some limbic degree, women are aware of their own SMV. Hypergamy wants an optimized state, but that impulse is mitigated by the realities of her capacity to attain it. I think there awareness of their SMV is there to some extent but its just creates to much cognitive dissonance for them when you try to covertly communicate that their is SMP and a MMP, it apperas like a worst case scenario of bounded rationality. I tried to explain this to a woman i know recenlty that juat beacuse she got “five minutes of alpha ” while travelling,… Read more »
I think that King A makes some very good points in his post. From what I can pick out from his essay, it’s that the end goal should be to build individual family units that derive common sense values that lead to integrity and honor. Also, this revival of this long defunct unit is on the duty of men of means. From the various bits of information that I gleaned about Rollo’s family life it seems that he has mastery over his own household. He plays the role of Marcus Aureilus of his home empire. He uses tactical mastery to… Read more »
They think why should I sacrifice my own life for sake of society? Because that is how there came to be any society in the first place. And because it is your purpose on earth to contribute, rather than reducing to a gluttonous solipsism and dying in your own soul-obese slop. Duties are a matter of maturity. You eventually grow up, as Rollo did, and gain the understanding that the world is not all about you and your satisfactions. The epic crisis at hand isn’t the unchained hypergamy of women — that is always with us. No, it is the… Read more »
This quote from Minter is an excellent summary of Rollo’s post: “When a woman has some baseline of economic security then her priorities will exactly shift into short term mating schedule and physical attributes.” Those high school girls Rollo observed are already taken care of at home; they already have some degree of economic security in their background. Think back to the time of our parents, grandparents and prior generations: their economic security wasn’t such a sure thing then. That lack of security was constantly in their face from the time they were little. They watched daddy claw, scramble and… Read more »
Guys resist knowledge of how love works in women. But with some hard work we can use it to advantage. It’s not that women love your money instead of the man, it’s that the don’t differentiate between the two. To women financial security is one of many character traits. They can and do love a man more because of it. And that’s a good thing for men, long term. It gives us sexual marketplace longevity. As Mark said and many have known for a while, you also get a big status boost moving to poorer countries. But that will again… Read more »
But you have to actually want it.
Sour grapes is not a life strategy. I don’t want to play that game anyway. (…because it’s too difficult and I don’t think I can win)
And if I’m wrong that must mean that all my successes have either been a string of flukes or due to fabulous innate advantages. I don’t believe either. If I can go from doing relatively poorly to relatively well, so too can any guy who takes the risks and puts in the time and effort.
[…] decided it was time to attack it, but had still been apprehensive about it when, lo and behold, Rollo posted this gem today (read the comments as well, as some are very relevant to my point). From the post: Hypergamy […]
To expand on xsplat’s post, “sour grapes” is really a bad overall life strategy. It is so very easy to default to perpetually derogating the SMP and the MMP that this sort of outlook seeps into everything a man does. Which in turn makes him even more unattractive not only to women but to his workplace, his friends, his social circle, etc. Which then feeds back into his continuing derogation of the SMP. Which is ultimately saying more about himself than he about anything else. At some level, a man caught in that cycle has to break out of it.… Read more »
Mark Minter: I would advise you to figure out some way to emigrate from the United States to somewhere than can elevate your SMV. I cannot agree more. If I were to give any advice to a younger guy today it would be that if you do plan get married, wait until you are 1) at least 30*, and 2) have lived outside your home country (preferably in two or more foreign countries) for at least 4-5 years. *: by which time you may have talked yourself out of it. heh Also, xsplat said: you also get a big status… Read more »
Mark Minter: I would advise you to figure out some way to emigrate from the United States to somewhere than can elevate your SMV. I cannot agree more. If I were to give any advice to a younger guy today it would be that if you do plan get married, wait until you are 1) at least 30*, and 2) have lived outside your home country (preferably in two or more foreign countries) for at least 4-5 years. Thirded. I also couldn’t agree more. Get your faggot asses out of my country. Our republic was built by the men who… Read more »
@King A Duties are a matter of maturity. You eventually grow up, as Rollo did, and gain the understanding that the world is not all about you and your satisfactions. The epic crisis at hand isn’t the unchained hypergamy of women — that is always with us. No, it is the continuation into adulthood of a boyish understanding of what man owes the polity that threatens complete dissolution. “Ask not …” you self-centered brats. Your opinion of duty is very… classical. It’s very much old fashioned masculinity, which is in a way impressive, but in another, more important way is… Read more »
Queen A, go fuck yourself.
Were your ancestors traitors for leaving their countries of birth? For escaping tyranny and other poor conditions and seeking a better life? Are you the descendant of traitors, who now dishonors their memory by acting like the kind of fascist they sought to avoid?
You talk like you have all the right answers, and the only right answers, but you are just another bombastic, holier-than-thou wuss who appears to get off on telling other people what to do, and where to go.
Go fuck yourself. Again.
Queen A(sshole): Cowards running from a fight to get cheap brown pussy.
That says everything I need to know about you.
Real Christian there, you hypocrite.
“That is not the society we live in.”
It would be if more people tried. Keep in mind that you only need to find *one* woman who will treat you the way you truly want to be treated and you can live in a mini version of that society. When we start banding together, then we can have that kind of society again on a larger scale. If everyone jumps ship, there’s no one to save the man overboard.
Matt “King” – go back to your christian blogs and stop polluting the best blog in the manosphere. Mr Minter is a fantastic contributor and your constant heckling with your bullshit “man up” garbage is getting old. Oh, and some “cheap brown pussy” is much better than anything your smallish cock will ever see.
BC:
Just a thought. I hope you won’t be too bothered by Matt King. I think you may be responding to someone who’s not right in the head.
How else can one explain his delusional self-awarded moral high ground, yet by his own comments such as the “brown pussy” proves he’s a fanatical racist? He’s looking for attention, plain and simple.
@James:
Thanks, and I know, but not only were his ignorant assumptions completely overboard, he crossed the line when by implication he insulted my wife. Nice to be able to do so cowardly from safety and comfort of his computer over the internet; face to face he would either be on a gurney in the emergency ward or a slab in the fucking morgue.
Quite the hamster to be able to call other people faggots and pussies.
@GeishaKate “That is not the society we live in.” It would be if more people tried. Keep in mind that you only need to find *one* woman who will treat you the way you truly want to be treated and you can live in a mini version of that society. When we start banding together, then we can have that kind of society again on a larger scale. If everyone jumps ship, there’s no one to save the man overboard. True to some extent, but there are numerous practical issues for any man wanting to take that path, including the… Read more »
BC:
Tough guy internet assholes come a dime a dozen, which you already know. Scripture-quoting tough guy assholes, well they’re less common. I’d love to see him say what he said to your face. : )
http://www.funpedia.net/imgs/feb12/soon-meme-15.jpg
Also, I agree with King A. Bailing and hiring desperate 3rd world prostitute poon (“allowance” lol, okay there) because you don’t have the game to compete here is about as impressive as joining a kid’s basketball league because you can’t compete with the adults. It’s cool that you’re scoring points and all, but letting that delude to into pretending you’re on Michael Jordan’s level is laughable.
YaReally:
What makes you think BC or anyone else gives a -uck about impressing you?
Some guys just want alternatives aside from pursuing disease-ridden skanks and entitlement bitches. I care about you. Therefore, I happily surrender my share of disease-ridden herpes harpies to you. Enjoy!
of course, women date up – in looks, money, personality, power, everything. Offer – men has to be there, for women to be able to choose the best. Given that women are limiting factor of procreation, almost every woman has to be able to find a mate. If males were not blinded by their hormones, very few realtionships take place. Women date up – men blinded by their hormones and illusions date down. So we have those intelligent, decent looking men with great personalities, sense of humor, burdened with fat, bitchy, stupid wives. It is really strange – woman as… Read more »
I’ll agree with you Gregg, but take it one step further. We men also have automated sub-routines running inside of us. A pretty face and an hourglass figure causes many involuntary reactions. Even our love is conditional. So I advocate managing the women like a puppet, but doing so with the intention of managing our own internal sub-routines also. We are happier when we have regular sex, when we feel some emotional bonds in our lives, when people show us affection, and even when people treat us as having relatively high status. We have the option to take the every-man-should-strive-to-be-an-imperturbable-self-contained-island-of-equanimity-and-joy… Read more »
@Joseph
From your laid back, unreactive, relaxed response I am certain that accepting your share of the disease-ridden herpes harpies is not a significant threat since your share is approximately 0.
It’s cool man, when I’m budgeting I convince myself the NoName brand of ketchup is as good as Heinz too. I just wouldn’t brag about it to people lol
@Gregg I’m shocked too when I see friends of mine settle for pigs that I wouldn’t consider banging even if I were completely shit faced. Talk about taking one for the team. It’s like they just gave up and settled for a steady stream of poon that requires no effort. I’m 34 single and happy with dating and running game as it keeps me sharp and on point. Variety never gets old and remaining free of commitment fucking kicks ass. My friends married with kids are miserable and their wives are bitches. They’re all unhappy. I dodged so many land… Read more »
Looks like the UK is one step ahead of Matt King (A):
jezebel.com/5950287/slut+dropping-and-other-ways-college-teaches-kids-to-be-sexist-assholes
What’s funny is that the ‘walk of shame’ is so predictable, and such a regular occurrence that these guys know the route these girls take to get back to their dorm.
Pluralism indeed.
@Apollo: I like the way you expanded the metaphor:) I certainly understand what you’re saying and I think you hit upon something important here: “I also have to mention that a number of divorced and currently very unhappy men thought they had found their one women at one point, only to find out that they were very badly mistaken.” I completely understand this as that was my experience too (except with a man, naturally) and I do know several men who experienced this as well. But, from that very large group of people who were married and are now divorced,… Read more »
King A is some piece of work. Here’s a guy full of demands and expectations for other men, lecturing us on our supposed duties. He’s like the wife of the manosphere. “Take out the trash, Roissy!”
i am 22, and have very little experience in dealing with girls etc. Game for me is trying to be better in all spheres of life, but gettting as much poon as possible. So reading this, all i can think is, it’ss all about looks.Except getting big muscles, there is nothing i can do because girls my age are looking for the super hot guy.? WTF should i do?
Gregg, ” …you have your mission and if you have not given her your soul, woman could be in acquisitive mode – i.e. respect and adore you, for years. This IS possible and it has to be proven to me several times… ” The optimal strategy would seem to be to keep women in their aquisitive mode as long as possible. This way you enjoy and appreciate their warm and loving companionship,their sweet girly charms. Most the women I date are very intelligent. Which means I can only string them along for so long. So from 3 months up to… Read more »
Their dresses almost look like lingerie. I don’t think I would ever want my daughters to be grinding with boys at a school dance.
I’ve never heard that true love most likely occurs when the man is ranked two points higher than a woman. Interesting, I will have to think about that one and decide if I agree or not.
@ simon – completely the opposite. Marriage WAS designed for the benefit of society and their best drones – ordinary men. Marriage IS beta thing. You could see now, what happens when women are left at the mercy of their emotions and baser instinct. I myself have robbed many men of their women in my previous harem years. Marriage was designed to GIVE woman to every man, thereby making him invest in society. Men with women a families contribute and fight for society like lions – Napoleon realized this. If we leave this thing to natural laws – there are… Read more »
Dem – don’t beat yourself up about the short term, you are very young so focus on achieving longterm value (or SMV if you would). At this point in your life, you are best served by getting top grades in your major, bust your ass off, and work in a field where there is serious upside (finance, growth internet companies, certain sales positions, etc). Or better yet, take some risk and start a company or join a start up and get some equity. And of course maintain top fitness while doing this (shoot for 10% body fat). Remember, women are… Read more »
Sis – that is a theory from Roissy, for which I agree (cant find the link at the moment). Basically, it is saying the man’s status (whoever you define it…money (rich banker), social proof (politician), and yes, looks/fitness) should be 1-2 points higher than a women’s looks (her looks dominant her status so they are synonymous for this example). So a good match would be a status 9 male (35 yo, 6 2, fit, $300k annual comp, Stanford MBA) with a solid HB 8 female (26, 5 8, 118 lbs…rest is irrelevant, ha ha). This means the guy has a… Read more »
“however”, not “whoever”. oops.
@GeishaKate I completely understand this as that was my experience too (except with a man, naturally) and I do know several men who experienced this as well. But, from that very large group of people who were married and are now divorced, they are divided into two separate groups: those who give up and those who keep looking. I know a lot of women who thought when they got divorced they’d find someone else again relatively soon. Most don’t. Most people fixate on their first object of affection after divorce. Somehow this “grass is greener” mentality fails to sink in… Read more »
Apollo, women are not capable of cognizing a man living for his own satisfaction. It does not compute. To them it’s impossible. Wrong. Must be corrected. It’s built in. When I was 27 I mentioned to a pretty 21 year old lass that I was never going to marry again or have more children, and she was appalled. Well, biologically speaking, she should be programmed to be appalled. That’s what men are for! Some guys are appalled at lesbianism. But, but, you can’t be a lesbian! You are hot! And if you are a lesbian it means you are of… Read more »
It’s the same with mentioning that you don’t want kids. Does not compute. They actually refuse to believe you! They think you are lying, or somehow don’t know what you want, or that you’ll come around, eventually.
@xsplat Yes, I’d have to agree that my experience so far seems to support your theory. I don’t mind spending some time trying to explain this to women who are open minded and willing to listen though. Maybe this time they will believe me, and it’s always better to know the truth. And that truth is, many men can do just fine without women, and not just survive but thrive. They can do this not because they haven’t been able to find the right one, but because they have deliberately chosen not to look. In this, sex is always going… Read more »
@Apollo: I certainly wasn’t suggesting you, personally, are bitter. Au contraire! You come across very reasonable and calm in your writing. Its nice to hear. And we are looking at this from different angles. I thought we were talking about divorced men, but you are talking about men who’ve never been married. I do get that some men are happy alone. I’m *relatively* happy alone myself. I’m not a social person by any stretch of the imagination. So, yes, I can imagine being a man and not being interested in marrying if there were no exceptional prospects. I don’t see… Read more »
I don’t hanker for the dying social order that I hear men grieving over. I never was a family man, so I can’t share that emotional connection. So for me I don’t see a collapse of society, because I don’t define society as being the social order of families. Instead of social collapse I see social change, and I’m fine with it, because it benefits me. I never wanted a family, and if all the girls are stuck in monogamous marriages and marrying young, I can’t live the lifestyle I want. So every time I hear of social collapse, it’s… Read more »
@GeishaKate You’re quite the optimist! Most would claim there’s “no hope” for me. 😉 We can only wait and see what the future holds. @xsplat I don’t really hanker for the return of Patriarchy either. It’s better for society certainly, but maybe not better for me. More importantly though, things just can’t be put back the way they were, so wishing for it to return is impractical. Yes, you can make a distinction between economic collapse and social collapse, although the two definitely are related. Social collapse will lead towards economic collapse. A healthy economy requires efficient production, and factors… Read more »
Freenortherner put a lot of thought into what social collapse might mean. In his post here http://freenortherner.wordpress.com/2012/09/22/the-collapse/ most of the more likely scenarios aren’t what I’d call collapse.
Econonomic downturn, barring increases in production due to technology, I can certainly agree with. Collapse means something more than that to me.
@xsplat Hadn’t seen that post yet. I’ll have a closer read tomorrow, looks interesting. Just quickly though, what I had in mind when I referred to collapse was on the level of the fall of Rome. Not immediately and all at once though, more gradually worsening over a longer period of time, a spiral downwards that takes a while to complete. Which is how I believe it happened in Rome too. But since we’re essentially talking about predicting the future here, and since a number of the particulars about our current day society are unprecedented (esp. the level of technological… Read more »
I’m not going to quibble about either definitions or what futures are most likely, but you’re plainly right that much of what we were used to has irrevocably changed, and much for the worse. I agree with you that there is nothing for it but to adapt and prosper on an individual level. There were times when a guy didn’t have to be in the top 10% to make a decent go of it with women. But now this seems to be an age that works best for an elite. A guy can be elite through natural endowment, training, or… Read more »
That last comment was aimed at those guys who seem to think other people care how good they are at fucking western girls, and all guys who lower themselves to melanin tainted breasts don’t gain any man points.
You can keep you man points, and I’ll keep melanin tinted breasts.
“It’s the same with mentioning that you don’t want kids. Does not compute. They actually refuse to believe you! They think you are lying, or somehow don’t know what you want, or that you’ll come around, eventually.”
Happens to my female friend all the time… She’s really not into kids (and it only got more powerful with age, not less), but everyone (including guys) just refuse to believe it. I think we’re living in a world where most people want kids and not wanting them seems bizarre.
So how can we determine the role that a woman’s income vs a man’s other dominant traits plays in hypergamy? I ask because I was very financially and female successful for most of my 20s, but like many was hit by the economy and went from 175k +/- per year in income to being unemployed / underemployed for the past 3 years (now 31). I have minimized the current struggle to my current gal, have family money (cant access currently but she senses its there), have a couple boats, etc (so I have outward appearances of wealth, but currently cash… Read more »
About Wesley, I basically said something similar to him in a comment on a previous post. He has alot going for him, rather he realizes it or not. A bit of an extreme example, but if you asked a celebrity man dating an average woman w/o fame on her own, he’d probably go on about true love and loyalty. And to him she would be loyal and very good, but it’s not because she’s a “good one”, but rather the discrepancy in value. Also, not to take away from Wes or his girl, who is attractive, but if I gather… Read more »
Nek, putting it that Mark advocates “keeping it light” is an understatement. He advocates pump and dump. I’m reading that he deliberately avoids romance, intimacy, and bonding. And he makes no mention of the joys of affection. That might work for some guys who do not enjoy forming attachments. But advocating such a lifestyle would be horrible advice for those who do not have some attachment avoidance issues or who retain any semblance of normal romantic bonding abilities. MOST men prefer intimacy in their lives. Now maybe for Mark he is not just adapting to a feeling that honest healthy… Read more »
Rollo… do you allow you daughter to have sex?
At 14, there is no ‘allowing’ of anything. We’ve raised a daughter who at this point is very aware of herself and displays self-disciple on her own.
That may sound Pollyanna on my part, just rest assured I’m very aware from my own sexual past that teenage girls want to fuck, and when a father lapses in his concerns, there’s a teenage guy ready to exploit that lapse. I’ve been that teenage guy.
To keep on this tangent….Rollo, what advice are you giving your daughter in general about relationships, a women’s role, etc. (if you already wrote about this, please send the link) I have a couple of young neice’s that I want to set straight but have no clue where to start. Thanks.
John Galt,
A commenter at Alpha Game called Carlotta just gave excellent advice. It’s here:
http://alphagameplan.blogspot.com/2012/10/feminist-sex-is-false-advertising.html?showComment=1349963631368#c4338166263409074829
I’m a little late on this one but I wanted to point out that last week a buddy of mine made the same observation regarding how 16 year old girls are dressing when he dropped off one of our high school aged employees at his homecoming. And this isn’t in an urban area, this is way up in a middle of nowhere upper midwest small town. He also mentioned how it was crazy how little these girls were wearing considering the temperature that night was in the upper 30’s. The culture is quite a bit different here from the sunny,… Read more »
Hey Rollo, let me get you straight on this… So after all your posts, what you are saying is that you expecting “bad teenager” trying to “exploit” your daughter? Now, I’m not saying that she should sleep with the whole football team… But now you put all men as a pack of hungry wolves. Are you going to chase away all her suitors (by means of your martial arts and amused mastery) untill she’s 26?
BTW, that picture is from a 2008 school graduation thingy in Russia. Notice the absence of ugly and fat chicks..
http://englishrussia.com/2008/05/26/graduation-2008/
What I am wondering, looking at these comments..is how does one determine SMV exactly; their own and that of others. Also I would like some opinions regarding how YOU think a woman should date in terms of selecting a man based on his SMV. You say that women date up and men date down but should they? For arguments sake what should a female 4 compared to a female 7 be aiming to attract (male 4, male 7?) and visa versa for men..what should a male 4 and a male 7 shoot for?
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[…] The author of this reddit thread is feeling the sharp end of that Hypergamic equation. While I’m sure there will be every effort made to paint this man’s wife as some fucked up, emotionally damaged, and conveniently, sexually abused victim (we don’t know this, but that was the default association in the comments of his original thread), the operative I’m driving at here isn’t about her individualized experiences, but the methodology she and all women use to justify their sexual pluralism. […]
“Women’s emotional center (if there is such a thing) isn’t love, but security.”
In my book, this is the central truth of the Red Pill (at least with respect to intergender dynamics) … I’ll never forget the first time I read it, I was absolutely floored …
“hypergamy applies to both of these instances and seeks a balance”
I would argue that a woman does not seek hypergamic “balance”, rather, her solipsistic hypergamic optimization recognizes that she’s missing out on something and simply tries to get more of what she’s missing.
Oela! This article is supposed to be rational and annalytic while lacking all ingredients required to meet the standard of being rational. There is no scientific back up and it provides one very limited perspective. I personally believe your issue comes from American subculture lacking a history and culture resulting in a country filled with people that lack a true identity so they simply can only follow rude trends cause trust me most teenage girls are not like that in western Europe….
Here’s your research, enjoy.
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/papers/
Pro Tip: Read through the links in the article and more of the rest of the blog before you presume things.
[…] הבחור שכתב את השרשור ב-Reddit מרגיש את נחת זרועה של ההיפרגמיה. למרות שלבטח יהיו ניסיונות לצייר את אשתו בתור מטורללת פגומה רגשית, ובאופן נוח למדי, קורבן מיני (זו הייתה רוח הדברים בשרשור המקורי), הנקודה העיקרית שאני מדבר עליה איננה החוויות הספציפיות שלה, אלא המתודולוגיה שהיא, ונשים אחרות, משתמשות בה כדי להצדיק את הפלורליזם המיני* שלהן (Balancing Sexual Pluralism). […]