As might be expected yesterday’s post regarding the love differentials between men and women drew a lot of commentary. I probably should’ve added the caveat that readers have a look at Women in Love as a prelude to reading Men in Love before posting it, but by far the most disconcerting part of Monday’s revelation was in my outlining exactly how men expect to be loved prior to actually entering into a love relationship with a woman.
Generally people of either sex don’t like to have love defined for them. The concept of love is loaded with subjectiveness, and not unsurprisingly you’ll offend people’s interpretations and sensibilities by trying to contain their idea of love in a defined box. This is one of the reasons love is such a great and human idea, but its ambiguity is also the primary cause of much of the human tragedy and suffering we experience. We see love in religious contexts, personal interpretations, philosophical essays, biological dynamics and a whole slew of other arenas, so it’s very easy to understand how universally convoluted, manipulative, and yet also how binding and nurturing love can be according to how well, or how ill our concepts of love aligns with that of others.
In outlining (not defining) a male perspective of love in contrast to a female perspective it’s necessary to understand how a man’s understanding of love shifts as he matures. A lot of commenters wanted to find the base root of that concept in their relationship with their mothers. As Freudian as that rings I wouldn’t say it’s a bad start. Men do in fact learn their first impressions of intimate, physical and nurturing love from their mothers, and this then forms the foundation of that expected love from their potential wives (or lovers). Even as children are unable to think in abstract terms, there is an innate, base understanding of the conditionality that must be met in order to maintain that motherly love. Yohami posted a great illustration of this with the still face experiment.
Yohami breaks this down thusly:
That circuit gets printed before we learn to talk = before we are able to form abstract and concepts. It’s a basic four piece, emotional / behavioral circuit.
There are many ways that circuit can be imprinted “wrong”. One is to have the mom (or dads) on the receiving end, making the kid the giver. Other is having him owning the frame. Other is to have the mom (or dads) respond only when the kid acts out. Other is making the kid act out and then silence him / punish him for it. Etc. Shortly, the kid understands the game and starts to play it.
And then you build everything on top.
Your experiences from ages 12-21, of course helped forming you, because you’re 35 now and this is a sum accumulative game. But honestly, what happened to you from 12-21, are the same mechanics that were already happening, only adding more external world influence, sex drive, and additional pressures.
Im trying to locate the source of the pain, and is this: like a compass or a geometrical piece that wants to find equilibrium, the pain wants to find the “good” again (from the good the bad and the ugly), but it only knows to reach that “good” by balancing violently between the bad and the ugly and episodes of rage and if that doesnt work, splitting / self mutilation ( cutting out the undesired parts of you, your past, identity, emotions, people, relationships, blocking stuff out, etc)
It’s a constant look out for the elusive “good” part of the dynamic.
Yohami continues (emphasis mine):
[But] you werent confident / self reassured about your needs and wants, because you were still negotiating how to even feel “good” and safe, so you didnt develop game nor saw girls / relationships for what they were – but you just added this to the previous unresolved mix, like, seeking the “good” (basic, maternal, paternal love where you’re defenseless and you’re intimally loved and taken care of and safe) from girls, mixing the defenseless and the sexual aggressive drive and the long time affection longing and the sense of dispair of never feeling safe, etc.
From the moment we’re born we realize love is conditional, but we want for it to be unconditional; our idealized state is unconditional love. To be a Man is to perform, to excel, to be the one for whom affections are freely given in appreciation and adoration. On a base level it’s this constant striving for that idealized love-state that helps us become more than we started as, but it comes at the cost of a misguided belief that a woman is capable of, much less willing to love us as we think is possible.
A Place to Rest
Peregrine John summed it up best on Jacquie’s blog comments recently:
We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while.
We want to, so badly.
If we do, we soon are no longer able to.
This is a realization that men don’t make until they are in a ‘love relationship’ with a woman. For men this is (should be) the catalyst for maturing beyond that want for an idealized unconditional love. At that point they come full circle and understand that the conceptual love they’d hoped they could return to (or could be) with their mother doesn’t exist in the woman he’s ‘in love’ with, and ultimately, never really existed between he and his mother from his infancy to adulthood.
There is no rest, there is no respite or reprieve from performing, but so strong is the desire for that unconditional love assurance that men thought it prudent to write it into “traditional” marriage vows – ‘for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love, cherish, and obey, forsaking all others until death do you part’ – in other words, a pledge of unconditional love in spite of all circumstance. Those vows are a direct plea for insurances against a female hypergamy that would otherwise be unfettered were it not made in the context of being before God and man.
In my post What’s Your Problem? I mention a 65 y.o man whom I used to counsel who’s wife had emotionally blackmailed him for over 20 years. He’d been married once before and divorced from his first wife after 12 years due to “not living up to her expectations” of financial provisioning. He never made the connection that the women he was ‘in love’ with had different concepts of what love meant to him. Rather, he evolved his previous concept of love wholesale to match that of women he ‘loved’, and thus his idea of love was one based upon an endless quest for qualifying for that love. In the first year of his second marriage he lost his job, and was unemployed for about 5 months, leaving his wife as the only revenue source for them. At the end of month 4 of his unemployment, after returning from an interview, he came home to find the locks changed on his home and two duffle bags “full of his shit” were waiting by the door. On top of them was a note written by his 2nd wife which, to the effect, read: “Don’t come back until you have a job.”
I remember him proudly recounting this story to me at the time, because he said, as pissed off as he was at the time, he was ‘grateful’ for her kicking him in the ass to be a “better man”. By this point his concept of love had been completely altered from his almost identical experiences with wife number one into a model that was entirely dependent upon his capacity to earn his wife’s love. Gone were the idealizations of unconditional love for the sake of love, to be replaced with the tactical, opportunistic concept of female love of his new wife. And, he was grateful for it.
After 20 years, at 65 (now 69) and in failing health he had come to realize that his efforts to secure her ‘love’ indefinitely had never been appreciated, only expected; so here he was facing the very cruel reality that he was losing his health and thus the means to maintain that incessant qualification for her love and affection.
The Reconciling
I get a lot of email and correspondence about the ruthlessness of my, I guess seminal, War Brides post. Guys have a hard time accepting the amorality of women’s inborn capacity to bond with their own captors as a psycho-socially adaptive survival trait, and how this evolved into women’s pronounced facility with which they can ‘get over’ former lovers so much faster than men seem to be capable of. Women don’t like me detailing this phenomenon for obvious reasons, but I think men dislike the notion of their easy ‘disposability’ because of that same inconsistency in gender concepts of love. Even as martyrs, even in death, that unconditional male concept of love is rebuked by women’s, by-necessity, fluid and utilitarian concept of love. As I stated yesterday, coming to terms with this is one of the most difficult aspects of taking the red pill.
I get that this seems overly nihilistic, but that’s the point. All of the very positive, very beneficial aspects of accepting a red pill reality come at the cost of abandoning the blue pill idealisms we’ve been conditioned to for so long. Leaving behind that polyanna, expectant, blue-pill dream seems like killing an old friend, but unlearning that old paradigm allows you to benefit from a far more hopeful red pill existence.
I’m not debating the genuineness or sincerity of women’s capacity to love. What I’m positing here is that women’s concept of love isn’t what men would be led to believe it is.
Awesome.
Here’s a recent text exchange where I make this chick I met at a bar fall in love with me. It’s a little long so I didn’t post the whole thing in the comments. The background is that I went to a posh hotel event after sailing- everyone was wearing crazy nice suits and dresses, I was rocking white sole shoes, jeans and looked like shit haha. – Saw a girl walk to the bar, immediately chased – Her hotter friend showed up, I told them both I was a french sailor named Pierre – Hot friend fooled me into… Read more »
but so strong is the desire for that unconditional love assurance that men thought it prudent to write it into “traditional” marriage vows – ‘for better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, to love, cherish, and obey, forsaking all others until death do you part’ – in other words, a pledge of unconditional love in spite of all circumstance. Those vows are a direct plea for insurances against a female hypergamy that would otherwise be unfettered were it not made in the context of being before God and man. Hmmmmm….I’m almost disappointed in… Read more »
We all desire unconditional love…just don’t expect it to come from somebody else. That’s why I would consider those who aren’t particularly religious (or maybe even if you are) to take a look again at what Jesus did for everybody. Someone who took false accusations, unjust punishment, getting scourged, crowned with thorns, carrying a 100 pound block of wood across his back, getting nailed by the hands and feet to it, and then staying in that torture for several hours so that we could all achieve perfection…and then tells us it’s our choice to accept it or not. That’s the… Read more »
I am new here and enjoying myself. I could use some guidance toward “essential” posts and/or something more long form (like books) that might get me up to speed.
Also, if you have a Twitter, Rollo, I’d follow. (Getting the e-mails currently.)
I realize you are speaking of the romantic feelings of love, but love is also in what we do, not just how we feel. I wish I could remember where I read this but I can’t. I also know King A has said much the same, that love is an action, an action that can be more important than the feeling. Women are perfectly capable of that. We are more than able to provide this: We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where… Read more »
Thanks again Rollo. This further helps me to understand my parents’ relationship, which ultimately ended in my father’s suicide. I have been anguishing over this for the past two decades (it happened when I was 12) and this, along with other red pill knowledge sheds more light on what may have happened to cause such a catastrophic and baffling event. After having 4 children with him, my mother eventually decided to leave, taking us with her. I am sure that he was craving the type of love you describe above, but clearly not getting it (even his suicide note indicated… Read more »
This is a meaty topic. I’m not sure unconditional love is a good thing for any relationship. If you know that you could hurt someone and they’ll always forgive you for it, not only do you have less incentive to walk the line, but you’ll lose respect for the other person. With that said, purely conditional love is not right either. Some of my happiest moments are being the shelter from the storm. I’ll certainly take a turn rowing the boat when necessary or even just because and take pleasure in it; it just shouldn’t be a permanent condition.
What is our answer then? Enjoy the pleasurable experiences with women and never invest yourself out of the very real risk of a proverbial knife between the ribs, or avoid women all together, choosing the life of a eunuch? Or is there another answer?
So the masculine feeling of Eros is satiated by the unconditional beauty of his partner whereas the feminine feeling of Eros is satiated by the conditional provisioning (status, resources) of her partner.
Do they ever reach agape, or is the male only capable of this?
Perhaps the rational answer for a man is simply, don’t ‘fall in love’. It does not serve you or your woman and seems a huge risk given what we now know. A man is expected to be rational, and falling in love, whilst it may seem a nice thought to ‘surrender’ yourself to your woman, is utterly irrational. For millennia mankind has been trying to fight against the grain of nature (through the applied concepts of religion and monogamous marriage). Society has been built upon men and women fighting their natural instincts and has resulted in the precarious reality we… Read more »
The answer is do whatever you want. Be a PUA, get married, go your own way…..whatever. just don’t make deriving happiness through permanent love your refuge.
That picture is brutal. I just realized she is holding a knife.
Thank you for adding the link to Women in Love, Rollo; that along with my husband’s comment helped bring into focus why our relationship has kept. After reading your post yesterday my husband told me he knew when he married me that my love was conditional. He’d already come to that point of understanding. And while I am thankful for this, I am unsure if I should feel inadequate of the love he has. I don’t know what I need to take from this.
@Stingray, I agree with you. The picture is difficult to look at.
I’m floored right now. You have rung my bell. I am dealing with these exact issues in myself and my relationship with my wife right now. After a particularly upsetting episode in an otherwise good marriage I took the red pill. While my relationship seems back on track, I have been mourning the loss of that innocence (or naivety) that I had previously. I long for the time that I felt so overwhelmed and sated with love for my wife. Now my outlook on life seems cold. She seems to love me dearly and works to take care of me… Read more »
This is, of course, why the bible commands men to love their wives, but merely commands women to honor their husbands and submit to their husbands.
A woman will never love you like you think you want her to. Fact. Realize that as a man, you exist on an entirely different plane than her and there is nothing to be done to change that. I don’t get this “shoulder to cry on” thing that guys say they’re looking for in a woman. “I just want to relax, open up to her, have her see me in all my awesomeness”. Really? Why? What possesses you to want that kind of relationship with anyone? Are you not a man? Do you not have good friends and brothers to… Read more »
Rollo, how do you explain women returning after a period of time? Several girls I met, when I first learned game at 18 have contacted or tried contacting me years later. Some form of settling?
Love cannot be understood through reason. Love is a matter of heart.
There is no reason for it. If a reason can be found, its not love.
If you ever want to find out if someone loves you, ask them “Why ?” If they can give you a reason, its not love.
Good post. No such thing as unconditional love, never was never will be, not even from your parents like you mention. Despite blue pill men wanting unconditional love, they are incapable of providing it themselves because it doesn’t exist. No one can forgive all indiscretions, not even Christ. Certain transgressions, whether warranted or not, will show just how conditional ‘love’ (a better term would be pair bonding) is.
While I think some of the input from the female commenters is pretty good, a theme that seems to be running through their comments is along the lines of “be ok with conditional love”. I agree with that, but men are ok with conditional love so long as one of the conditions is that they don’t have to invest themselves into a woman too much. But females want that investment, a “commitment”. As I said to a friend the other day: Life’s perfectly imperfect.
The take home lesson for me is that if a woman is unable to love me the way I want to be loved by her, then I damn sure will not commit and the only thing I will be committed to is riding her hard and putting her away wet.
So, not only are women prone to ending established relationships on the flimsiest of pretexts, but they are also capable of bonding with a kidnapper who might easily end a life for hit of crack?
Can’t see why that would be a bitter pill to swallow!
As a man you should consider yourself lucky if you have parents and maybe a sibling or two who truly love you.
40 years on this earth has taught me that the ONLY people who have anything close to “that” kind of love for me are the ones with skin in the game, so to speak. Romantic love is parasitic/symbiotic; love that is shared amongst blood relatives is less conditional. The closer you are to someone genetically, the more likely they are to really “love” you. That’s the bottom line.
I don’t know what else you could write about this theme but I hope there is more. Maybe this topic is the ultimate in Red Pill awareness. I am surprised and I am not surprised that people just don’t read this post, the “Men in Love” post, the “Women in Love” post, and the “War Brides” post and just say “OK. That’s explains things I have seen or experienced.” My metaphor that I always used for a lot of what you write about is the Law of Gravity. People have seen things fall to the ground all of their lives.… Read more »
I have another weirdo analogy. Please bear with me. Ok, back in the Pre-WWI 20th century years, there was a theory that the “prettiest ear of corn” was prized because it yielded the highest amount of corn. There were Prettiest Ear contests that were like county fairs with all the typical stuff of a county fair like boardwalks, cake judging contests, beauty contests all surrounding the Prettiest Ear contests. These contests were significant events on the social calender for small and midsized Midwest farm towns. Ears of corn were judged for straight rows of kernels and even, equal sized kernels.… Read more »
“We want to relax. We want to be open and honest. We want to have a safe haven in which struggle has no place, where we gain strength and rest instead of having it pulled from us. We want to stop being on guard all the time, and have a chance to simply be with someone who can understand our basic humanity without begrudging it. To stop fighting, to stop playing the game, just for a while. We want to, so badly. If we do, we soon are no longer able to.” I feel the same way as a woman.… Read more »
“It’s sad when someone you know becomes someone you knew.” ~ Henry Rollins
Sorry to be commenting so much. This one is about your book. Someone had said just collect the posts together and put them in book form. Yeah, that would probably work. But I had gone back after your “One Year” post and read many of the links. Many of them I had read previously and some were new for me. But when I compare those first posts to what you write today, it is like being a student of calculus and looking back at “derivatives” after completing “integrals of multiple variables”. While the concepts of derivatives were not trivial at… Read more »
Love is a response to what we value so the problem is not in love but in what we value that we than respond to with love.
If a person values self respect they would never make their love unconditional and than place at risk the loss of self respect if the other devalues them yet they continue to love unconditionally.
Life has value so love must always be earned by valuing life.
The whole appreciation thing … back during my blue pill days, my father once made an offhand comment to me about the lack of appreciation he got from my mother. I didn’t think much about it at the time, shame on me! But then came the ex who carried her own lack of appreciation like a bright Olympic torch. Of course that happened long before the manosphere came by to teach me why women are like that. It is possible to move on in happy or at least contented ways after taking the red pill: what is required is you… Read more »
I went to a wedding last weekend and after having taken the red pill last year, saw it from a totally different perspective. The groom is slightly younger and higher SMV than the bride, so I don’t think he’ll have problems with hypergamy, but I was taken aback at how two people can make such a serious, lifelong commitment to one another (maybe 60+ years) without a clue that the idealized love that they have for one another not only is very different for a man than a woman, but it doesn’t exist. Biological realities rule the day. Most men… Read more »
Seems like forcing yourself to love an ugly chick is the only way to get your mind in the right frame or pick up chicks for lifr or just go your own way.
I talked about this with my man when we were just starting the relationship, and I couldn’t figure out why he’d like unconditional love and talk as if it’s possible or a good thing. I mean, if someone starts beating you every day, why go on loving? They could also go insane and change forever dramatically. But then he explained to me that once you pick a good partner and develop a loving relationship, love is nearly unconditional. So technically it is conditional, but because you picked well, it appears unconditional in practice.
This is a bookmark-worthy post for Red Pill annals.
Reading the posts, we should remember that when the Bible commands man to love his wife, the word is from agape (sacrificial, godly love that Christ loved the church with) and not eros (romantic love). It really even appears that God didn’t command our vision of romantic love. Rather the love a leader shows toward his tribe.
Betas of the month
http://imgur.com/a/2jwwH
@Rock Throwing Peasant You make a good point, the love of a man, like the love of Christ is given in spite of knowing that love will not be returned in kind and aware that a woman (or the church) is incapable of such. Recognition of this and choosing to give anyway is the sacrificial love that Christ gives, and that man imitates. The problem today, as has been pointed out, is that the current culture teaches something contrary. When the illusion, or lie, is revealed it stirs anger, and rightly so. But it leads me to ask a question-should… Read more »
I do no think that this one is about “unconditional love”. It is about biology. Man is but a tool for woman and tool has value only if and as long as it serves to its owner. Men can fall out of “love” from their wives but they still feel the responsibility, they still want to provide and protect they still feel an obligation to her. They let her to have all their assets, children, car, house and start again with nothing but themselves. And they feel good about themselves cos this is ..you know..”manly”. It is “manly” to sacrifice… Read more »
I think love is possible, there are couples who remain married for 60 years and still love each other. But you have to have the right kind of society that can produce that. One with intense stigmas attached to cheating and divorce and being a shrew or a cad. It has to teach children from a young age how to be good wives/mothers and husbands/fathers. Our “you go girl!” society is toxic. Making ones own self and happiness our highest goals is toxic to lasting marriages. Imagine a society which has producing the type of people who can sustain a… Read more »
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
Girls, it’s definitely on now. Mark my word.
I am motherfucking Spartacus and this slave is definitely, now, in revolt.
We are being a bit hypocritical, of course women’s love is conditional. But so is men’s. If your girlfriend gets Jabba the Hutt fat, would you not leave her?
This is a good summation of most guys ‘waking’ up: guy loves girl, girl leaves/acts like a bitch, guy is smart enough to ask what happened.
I wonder are there ANY guys out there who wake up who were NOT either the victim of ‘love’, or saw it played it through one of their friends?
Stingray, I’ve no idea if the idea of being a place of rest, a home, is somehow repugnant, but I do know that if the ineffably feminine power of it was understood, it would be widely adopted as not just idea but ideal. The trouble seems to be, as Rollo put it, “There is no rest, there is no respite or reprieve from performing” because, as I mentioned, to even show the desire to let down the guard is to lose respect, and without the respect the openness closes and she looks to move on. Could it be that she… Read more »
” Strict rules of engagement between the sexes is the norm for all of human history and for good reason. Either that or society collapses” This is a very popular sentiment on manosphere blogs. It has such a righteous feeling of moral vindication, that it just MUST be true. But whenever I’ve asked the speakers of this intuition what, EXACTLY, they mean by “society collapses”, all I hear is the sound of crickets. And I’ve asked at least 20 times by now. Are people going to stop producing Ipads? Will Egg Mcmuffins no longer be available? What EXACTLY does collapse… Read more »
This may double post. Some login issues when I submitted the post. We should maybe be either less surprised that we don’t automatically know what the other sex truly wants, or more pissed off at the Creator for screwing up so badly on this point. Why? I think, if there’s a root to the problem on earth, it was when romantic love became the default definition of marital love. I’ve given this topic a lot of thought and finished a book on Christians reconciling game with their faith. If God only envisioned marriage for strictly patriarchal purposes (that is, your… Read more »
Are people going to stop producing Ipads? Will Egg Mcmuffins no longer be available? What EXACTLY does collapse mean?
That’s a fairly shallow view of society.
You want to know what happens? Cuz, go into the ghetto and sow the fruits. That is what is in store when it hits the fan, on a larger scale.
Gah, reap the fruits. Stoopid.
I agree with what some commentors have said: men are biologically hard wired to be duped by women. We are naturally saps, all of us. But here is something I believe is missing in the discussion. The educated man of the world can gain hand over women, and play them to his advantage. He gets far more hand over them than women have ever had over men. T The man who is expert at creating, building, and maintaining attraction can make a love slave out of his women, and can enjoy deep affection. It’s not a problem that women are… Read more »
“You want to know what happens? Cuz, go into the ghetto and sow the fruits.”
I want to know what happens to WHITE society. Show me a WHITE example.
Kipling talked about having a smoke and cheery chat with his male friends, one-itis, and about the shit test imposed by a fiance. He wasn’t really talking about Cohibas in this poem. The Betrothed Rudyard Kipling “You must choose between me and your cigar.” – Breach of Promise Case, circa 1885. Open the old cigar-box, get me a Cuba stout, For things are running crossways, and Maggie and I are out. We quarrelled about Havanas – we fought o’er a good cheroot, And I knew she is exacting, and she says I am a brute. Open the old cigar-box –… Read more »
I often think for many people…loving themselves is harder than finding someone to love us. Some people will also accuse you of being selfish, self-centered, and narcissistic.
Love yourself anyway…it will make life a hell of a lot easier.
True, by collapse I didn’t mean total Mad Max. But a number of socially destructive trends such as failure of replacement level birthrate for the best and brightest, high birthrates for the worst. Children raised by single mothers and the resulting behavioral problems of the children: lack of ambition and discipline, lots of thuggish males on the prowl with no socially redeeming attributes, teen mothers. Historically you would also end up with massive numbers of homeless street children, but abortion cuts down on that in the west.
I am editing the book at the moment. A week or so.
It provides an intro to Red Pill, outlines principles of game without being a “how to” (I refer the reader to subject matter experts), and then dives into applying what Christians can take from game. I lay out building blocks for guys to use and a 30 day plan to get started.
You can send a contact email to the yahoo account. It’s a junk internet account I use for all registrations and online accounts.
Thanks for the honest re-evaluation of “collapse”. Such a collapse seems quite sustainable to me. Sounds like the Philippines, where the higher classes are genetically and physically isolated from the destitute hordes. A big change, yes, but one that doesn’t automatically lead to a revolution or a swinging of the pendulum back to another direction. But what these future predictions miss is technology. Where we are today is the result of technology. Future technological changes will change what options we have for our future. How far off do you think biotech is from altering society? What will happen when making… Read more »
h@xsplat
“The love of women is like that. This is not a failure of love. This is an opportunity to restructure love to your advantage. To rework your own expectations and to rework your ability in manipulating the woman.”
Agreed. Now we have the chance to see the truth. Use women for what they can be used, given their biology. Now we can live on our terms determined by clarity and knowledge. This freedom shows our true colors my friends 🙂
I think, if there’s a root to the problem on earth, it was when romantic love became the default definition of marital love. Well, yes. Note that my suggestion was in reference to the differences, and that we should be unsurprised that they exist or irritated at the design of the whole thing. Yes, we’ve been given extensive Red Pill wisdom, far far more than usually credited, in what one would reasonably call an instruction manual for humans, and I personally prefer the less-surprised reaction to the annoyed reaction. I just find His sense of humor a little trying sometimes.… Read more »
I broke my neck, and my husband made it abundantly clear that didn’t want me anymore. So I got a job when I was well enough to work, and I left. I took none of his money, alimony, car, house, retirement–absolutely nothing. And that’s because I loved him unconditionally and wanted him to be happy.
I’ll have to take a re-read Peregrine John, but please speak a bit more about social collapse and how that relates to women not being capable of nurturing men when we are weak. I hear your complaint. I also used to look to my main companion for solace for my troubles. Over time, slowly I’ve learned to keep such things to myself. I understand that’s not ideal. Guys would prefer emotional support – especially as we don’t talk about feelings with other men. So who else can we turn to? The answer, unfortunately, is no one. We really have to… Read more »
I think it was Rob from the No-mam blog who said that women are to men as children are to women. Can you imagine a mother expecting emotional support from her child? That would be an insane burden to put onto a child. We men do the same with our women. They are not capable of empathizing with our concerns, in the same way a child is not. And worse, they lose attraction when we try to share the weight of our burdens with them. We were led very far astray to ever view them as “partners”, and feminism has… Read more »
Speak more? Haven’t mentioned it at all, myself, except for delineating between a personal (and pathetic) emotional collapse and simply admitting flawed humanity. I don’t know much about social collapse, but if there is one I doubt it’ll be from something as subtle as this particular topic, and it’d probably be more of a cultural meltdown caused by financial collapse and its attendant troubles. That’s way the heck beyond my knowledge, but has been explored a fair bit on page and screen. No idea what it’d look like in reality, though I’ve been slowly reducing reliance on the rest of… Read more »
I’ve no idea if the idea of being a place of rest, a home, is somehow repugnant, but I do know that if the ineffably feminine power of it was understood, it would be widely adopted as not just idea but ideal. To many women, the idea of it is repugnant, unfortunately. At one time the feminine power of providing this was a thing of pride for many women. It no longer is. The power of the feminine is not overt enough for women any more because they seek the overt power of the masculine. They’ve got it now and… Read more »
Peregrine John,
I have a response to you in moderation. I need to stop linking too many times in one comment! Rollo, mind taking it out? Thanks.
My Dad had a rough patch where he was in extremely dire financial shape. After working hard and getting himself back on his feet, he made some rash investment decisions and wound up in an even deeper hole. His new common law wife complained to me that she wished he’d share his burden with her more. That he was too stoic and independent. I didn’t understand why he was that way at the time. I was a sensitive new age guy, and agreed with her. Now I see he knew his business. As difficult as that must have been for… Read more »
Regarding the political situation – that is subject which is overlooked when addressing the SMP. Today’s welfare-regulatory state radically effects the SMP. Abolish the welfare state, the preventative law agencies, the central bank, eliminate all regulatory interventionism (ie Title 9), and most importantly eliminate public schools and you have a RADICALLY different world; ie a world which demands self-responsibility. The Progressives destroyed self-responsibility and a long-term time horizon. They made basically the entire Western citizenry INVALIDS. This goes double for women. Today’s Western women are irresponsible sluts who have been given an entitlement mindset by the Left and complicit Conservatives.… Read more »
@xsplat
I’m continually impressed with the depth of your comments. Thank you for contributing.
Well, call me odd, but I like to see the human side of a man. Otherwise you’re just dealing with some sort of gamebot. Seeing it from an alpha is the biggest compliment a woman will ever get. Seeing it too much, or all the time (especially after marriage), is the error of the beta.
I wonder if this selfless love we are talking about really cuts across gender lines or if it depends on individuals or who views whom as more dependent in the relationship.
‘Well, call me odd, but I like to see the human side of a man. ‘ I think that’s the whole point here. We’ve all been taught of a bunch of PC garbage that we have interalized and when women see this blue pill human side, we’re fucked. The hotter the woman the less tolerance she has for beta behavior. How many guys fit the bill in terms of their human side to satisfy this criteria? Answer: The naturals, who is what women desire in the first place. The issues here is that I think that blue pill beta behavior… Read more »
Just chiming in to say emotions have nothing to do with beta behavior.
Such cynicism from The Divorce Generation. I’m sad so many of you have no frame of reference for unconditional love. Unconditional love is everywhere, all around us. Someone might have mentioned it above, it is called agape (sacrifice), as distinct from eros (longing). In the Latin it is translated caritas, which is the base for our word “charity.” Our understanding of “charity” is even more debased than our understanding of eros. Caritas means sacrificing on behalf of someone with no possibility of repayment. Note the distinct one-way quality of that definition. Note further that it requires a deed, not a… Read more »
GK, I would say that “being human” is about the worst mistake a man can make with a woman he wants to continue seeing. The only practical application for it is to get rid of a woman who has become too clingy. Seems to me, love can be turned off or on by most women with little more effort than it takes to flip a light switch. I bet most guys here would concur. We’ve all known a woman who seemed to be completely committed and devoted to us. She asked us to open up and we did, We showed… Read more »
Some would say marriage us already becoming obsolete. A growing number of both men and women are postponing marriage longer and later in life, and then deciding they just don’t want to be bothered, especially men. Especially men who’ve been through one nasty divorce already or who have seen male friends and family go through one.
Can you imagine a mother expecting emotional support from her child? That would be an insane burden to put onto a child.
But they do, all too often. Especially single mothers. It leads to a whole set of problems for the male child, not the least of which is a susceptibility later in life to take on the Codependent role with a Cluster B type.
[…] Men are biologically hard wired to be duped by women. We are naturally saps, all of us. Love leads us into slavery to women, who don’t love as we expect them to. […]
“Well, call me odd, but I like to see the human side of a man” Makes sense, but here’s the problem. LIKE and ATTRACTION/AROUSAL are two different things. Women do like to see the human side of a man from a comfort standpoint, but it definitely decreases the arousal aspect of a relationship. The best relationships, or the ones where they last the longest and seem the happiest in my experience, are ones where the sexual attraction and arousal are still present. The words “like” and “attraction” are mixed up too much in these discussions. Women like the human side… Read more »
There is so much excellence in this and the previous post. I feel like maybe some readers of this blog are synching up with each other as we follow this quest toward a comfortability with the paradoxes of our situations, idealizations, observations, and experiences, etc.. Thank you all for putting into words what’s been on my mind lately. Experience continues to prove all of this to be true. I’m wondering though, if in reading about this ( – what you put in is what comes out – ), we’re simply reinforcing the obvious. I want to know how to appreciate… Read more »
@ nek and everyone else, great stuff. Thanks Rollo for this place. And good luck with the book if you decide to go through with it.
Are you Christian Rollo?
@Simon/nek: I get that. If you get into a relationship, you’re going to lose some of that intitial attraction caused by mystery, but, as you get to know the person, there is a positive trade-off. You start bringing out the best in each other, encouraging the other in their goals, sharing experiences together. With the guy who’ll never show you his human side, you never get to enjoy those things. You might be a “couple,” but you’re not really united.
GeishaKate, First of all, I’d like to preface the point I want to make with the following: I’m not trying to be hostile/combative or disagreeable just to be disagreeable. Understand that the medium we are communicating through doesn’t allow for the expression of body language and tone. Because of this understand those two very crucial aspects of our communication are missing. So if what I’m about to say comes off hostile/combative/angered, it’s not, and i’m simply not able to convey that to you as I can’t convey tone via internet comment section. Now to my point: I’ve read your comments,… Read more »
“I talked about this with my man when we were just starting the relationship, and I couldn’t figure out why he’d like unconditional love and talk as if it’s possible or a good thing.” Aha. Thank you for this. Now I understand better — it’s a terms error. “Unconditional” love is the wrong term. Men don’t want unconditional love. We just want LESS conditional love. Which ties into something I posted over as HUS a while back: “Women, if you want to attract us, you should keep in mind that even when we’re just dating you, we men still expect… Read more »
Grrr. Insult my intelligence, but not my hair 🙂 It *is* long. Its pulled up in this picture. And you can’t tell me I don’t have a positive influence on the men I’ve been involved with. The *proof* is in their accomplishments and that they often attribute them to me. I understand your disbelief as you don’t know me. But that ideal is possible.
xsplat September 12th, 2012 at 12:45 pm ” Strict rules of engagement between the sexes is the norm for all of human history and for good reason. Either that or society collapses” This is a very popular sentiment on manosphere blogs. It has such a righteous feeling of moral vindication, that it just MUST be true. But whenever I’ve asked the speakers of this intuition what, EXACTLY, they mean by “society collapses”, all I hear is the sound of crickets. And I’ve asked at least 20 times by now. ————————————————————————————– Ask no more my son. Drive to the ghetto, park… Read more »
xsplat September 12th, 2012 at 1:12 pm “You want to know what happens? Cuz, go into the ghetto and sow the fruits.” I want to know what happens to WHITE society. Show me a WHITE example. ———————————————————- The ghetto IS the white example! You think black people want to be there? Its must be very interesting to be a white person; to believe your pale skin functions as some kind of magical “force field” that will prevent you from being mistreated. Ive mentioned this to Paul Elam and its the downfall of the MRM. Too many white guys think they… Read more »
@Acksiom Your concept of reciprocal love makes sense and sheds light on this discussion. It supports Rollo’s assertion that women will never understand this dynamic. They will never understand the sacrifice that men are prepared to make on their behalf. And you note that men are willing to do this for children as well. Which brings light to the men > women > children arrangement. As though it is less about who controls whom but instead who protects whom. @GeishaKate I tend to side with you on how wonderful the support of a woman can make a man feel. I… Read more »
b-166-er, it could be true that white society is heading in the same direction as black society, but using different groups is that we don’t know if we are talking about nature or nurture. Now I’ve met plenty of blacks that were better than me in all measurable ways. Smarter, more charismatic and socially skilled, harder working, more handsome, taller, more athletic. And I’ve met large groups of upper class blacks from when I used to vend at jazz festivals. The cream of that group can hold their own and sometimes do better on many metrics than the average white.… Read more »
xsplat, Im not going to try to convince anybody of anything, especially a white person. But for anybody else interested; the only difference between “ghetto blacks” and black people like myself, is our utility to white people. Thats your black upper class, thats your black middle class, thats your PRESIDENT. There is the eqivalent of a racial “Brifaults law” (SP?) black people are subject to inwhich white people funnel defense and support to those nonwhite people who have utility to white supremacy. The main goal of white supremacy (post slavery) has always been to prevent dark skinned males from having… Read more »
Rollo,
I have finished the editing. If you’re interested in an e-copy, I can forward one tomorrow.
Rollo, Excellent insight and start to the discussion. I wonder whether a different comparison might be made though. In my observation, the difference in love between romantic/blue-pill men and women is not “unconditional” versus “conditional” love, but the desire for validation versus the desire for actual concrete provisioning. All love is an exchange of something. Even romantic men want something – validation. They have simply been brainwashed that women are the only source of that validation, acceptance, and self-worth, while the rest of society vilifies, devalues, and marginalizes them. By winning a woman’s love then, men are graced with the… Read more »
Dr. Jeremy – Thank you. Your post has given me the perspective to feel better about the fact that I am finding it difficult to see “love” as I did before. Feeling badly about the fact that I do see “love” as conditional now has been an ongoing thorn in my side, and I’ve been pushing back to my blue pill perspective because of that. I felt bad that I now have expectations for giving that love to a woman, despite knowing that it is exactly what should occur. Logically I’ve known it for some time now, but emotionally I… Read more »
Dr. Jeremy, Awesome comment. I’ve been having difficulty really solidifying and articulating my thoughts after reading this post. After reading your comment, you nailed for me what I was really thinking and stated it exactly right. Unconditional versus conditional isn’t exactly right. I think you are right that for blue-pill men it is about validation and one-nitis. I think you are also right that for red-pill men “love” takes on more of the characteristics that women inherently have which is that the other person plays a certain role in your life and brings some tangible value (for women it might… Read more »
on the topic http://yohami.com/blog/2012/07/20/so-why-bother-with-a-long-term-relationship/
@ Ted D and mikec74 Thanks guys. I’m glad the comment resonated with you both. You guys are right. Taking the “red pill” goes way beyond interaction with women. In fact, although guys get into the manosphere primarily for help with women, it is really only a byproduct of the larger work. That larger work is self-empowerment, self-worth, and leadership development. Historically, men developed self worth from their character and position as leaders in society. They were warriors, chiefs…then mayors, scientists, and inventors. They felt good by defining themselves through thought, deed, and accomplishment. That is why there were often… Read more »
b-166-er on September 13th, 2012 at 10:54 am “xsplat “I want to know what happens to WHITE society. Show me a WHITE example.” ———————————————————- The ghetto IS the white example! You think black people want to be there? Its must be very interesting to be a white person; to believe your pale skin functions as some kind of magical “force field” that will prevent you from being mistreated.” __________________________________ xsplat, the increasingly decrepit and dysfunctional UK has examples on a par with any North American urban sinkhole. All it lacks are the sheer numbers, and the exceptional difficulty in accessing… Read more »
Thanks for the info Tam the Bam, many people have never experienced a white ghetto. My question to you is in regard to the men. In the black ghettos of the U.S there are very few men. At first you don’t notice it because you see lots of males. But the men are absent. What do I mean by men? Watch the Movie Gran Torino. Its the perfect “white example” for xsplat. Compare Clint Eastwood to the rest of the white males in the movie; especially the young white guy he calls a pussy; when he was dealing with the… Read more »
[…] Rational Male – Men In Love, Of Love And War […]
Oops was looking for a clip, and didn’t realise there was a US remake of “Shameless”, the UK version is pretty grimy and rude. OK the “men”, well they either lit out for work elsewhere (I know guys I grew up with who like me got out as soon as, and they’ve ended up in all sorts of places, Netherlands, France (quite a few, weird, huh?), Oz, to rig work offshore here, even Libya (but not any more!), to That London of course, even N America. Or they just shuffled around for a few years as dust-on-the-lungs wrecks before carking… Read more »
[…] Rollo had two pieces regarding men and love (Men In Love and Of Love and War). In the first he stated “ Women are utterly incapable of loving a man in the way that a […]
Another home-run, Rollo. Your post “War Brides” is your masterpiece but this is not very far from it. I know the nature of women’s love for some years (by own experience) and it is a still a hard pill to swallow. For me, it’s the hardest thing to accept. It’s not that I mourn the death of my Disneyesque ideal of love. Well, in fact, I do but this is not the worst thing. The worst thing are the consequence. The implications are terrifying. With this knowledge about women’s nature, you have the following options: 1) Get married and perform… Read more »
[…] I’m a better man than dad I’ll be deserving of love the way I envision it, I’ll be appreciated and hypergamy will be inconsequential due to the equity I’ll […]
Marriage sucks ass. A man has everything to lose and nothing to gain. The woman has everything to gain and nothing to lose. Fuck marriage to the 5th power!
Also, there’s no such thing as true love. Stop believing in that shit. There’s only lust, false love, and extortion.
Briffault’s Law should be plastered all over men’s minds.
@Alpha Mission
@imnobody
Transhumanism offers a third solution. Future technologies like genetic engineering, cognitive engineering, brain uploading, and nanotechnology promise us the possibility of a woman who can truly love us (I refuse to call that shit current females do “love”), either by creating her from scratch or by modifying an existing female into one.
In such a case, the most important thing is making sure to get to that future alive; selling one’s motorcycle, wearing one’s seat-belt, keeping oneself healthy, and signing up for cryonic preservation after death (roughly $30k) all sound like good ideas.
[…] perspective. In other words, unplug. Drop any expectations of a mutual respect, shared purpose or infantile visions of an idealistic love – because you have no ‘right’ to something women fundamentally lack the capacity to […]