As much as I’d love to read more Field Reports and follow ups (which I do agree are important) the simple fact of the matter is that you’re relying on whatever it is any one blogger or forum poster is telling you. I speak ‘manosphere’ very fluently. I could very easily go on the RSD boards, create a new identity, and fabricate a very believable story about how I managed a 4-Way with three HB 9 swimsuit models using using a direct approach or any number of PUA techniques. Once I posted, there’d be guys who’d virtually pat me on the back and ask how they could repeat it themselves because they want to believe it.
Then there’d also be another set who’d believe it, but take the faux-pity position and say I was wasting my life away in meaningless orgies with the ‘low quality’ centerfolds they wish their LTR girlfriends looked like.
And finally, there’d be the nonbelievers who’d accuse me of making it all up. Not because it was too fanciful a story, but rather they’d think all women are just smarter than to be suckered into an instant porn movie with a random guy – only to lose all faith in women in general after watching another home-made amateur porn video.
Legitimacy of experience vs. Online personae.
Even when PUA gurus go to the trouble of making as anonymous, and as inconspicuous as possible, videos of themselves showing their approach techniques, the first thing anyone says is it was staged. And unless he could someway get a camera secretly into his bedroom after the successful pull, there will still be an element that will think it was arranged, or there’ll be another element that say the girl is just a common slut so of course it worked.
Now as bad as all that sounds, I think Field Reports definitely have their place as field testing experiments, doubters or not. Just bear in mind, you will never filter out that situational bias. Observing a process will change that process.
What’s interesting is this constant, perceived conflict between “theorists” and “practitioners”. Honestly, I don’t believe you can separate them. All the tools a guy will have at his disposal to practice don’t amount to much if he doesn’t understand why those tool work in the first place. Similarly all the theory in the world is useless until you develop an application of it by trial and error. Now, add to all that the situational bias I just described – what do you tell an AFC who’s stuck on Matrix conditioning “try using negs” or “here’s why Negs work”? I’d say both of course, but which do you start with?
Wax On, Wax Off
If you’ve seen the original Karate Kid, where Mr. Miyagi teaches Daniel-San karate by having him wax his car you kind of see the disconnect here. Wax on, wax off; silly in premise, but useful in teaching. Here you have Daniel wanting to be able to fight, but for the moment his teacher seems like an exploitative fool, and he wonders if he’s been duped by an old man who doesn’t know shit about karate. That is until he puts it into practice.
Mr. Miyagi knows his shit, but Daniel has to take all that on faith; faith that Mr. Miyagi is who he claims to be, and possesses the experience he claims to have.
I am not a Guru, nor am I a Master Pick Up Artist, nor am I some motivational speaker, pastor or self-help psychologist. I’m a man with experience. What I write here is in the hopes that others can benefit from that experience and the insight that comes from sorting it out. When I can devise practices from those insights I’ll offer them, but understand that the validity of what anyone you have respect for professes or suggests you do, it’s still up to you to decide what works best for yourself and critically determine its veracity.
I can tell you, you can trust that I am who I say I am, but my experiences and how I relate them is how you can verify my own or anyone else’s perspectives. It’s exactly for this reason I take a hands-off approach to moderating my comments on this blog. I may sharply disagree with certain perspectives, but it’s more important to read them to know just what that commenter’s experience and/or legitimacy is.
One of the reasons I do 70% of my Internet writing/commenting/etc with my real name is specifically for reputation enhancement, i.e. “virtual social proof.” No woman can ever call me a cheat or a liar — it’s all there, public. No customer can ever say I’m offensive — it’s all there, public. When people don’t believe I am real or speak the truth, I invite them to hang out at one of my offices — it’s all there, public. Haters can hate, but if they’re anonymous, they’re doing nothing but strengthening my reputation for those who know me, have experienced… Read more »
This is an important point: those with the best grasp on reality are not necessarily the ones who express themselves best online. In the absence of corroborating evidence outside one’s self-testimony, we must make our judgments based on tone — he sounds like he has been there and knows what he is talking about. But the more common mistake is to assume the zero-sum position: that if you are strong on theory, that is proof you are relatively weak on experience, and vice versa. So, rather than combining theory with practice — the highest achievement: a thinking man of action… Read more »
Well said. The only other thing I would add is that what works for one man will not always work for another man because they are two different men. Yes, the principles of seduction or GAME are the same and you must follow the principles, but eventually you must develop your own style of seduction or GAME in order for you to be successful just like you would if you were training in the fighting arts such as judo, boxing, karate, etc. Remember seduction or game is mostly and essentially an art with a large minority of scientific principles behind… Read more »
@ Doc:
Xsplat just posted something to that effect on his blog.
http://xsplat.wordpress.com/2012/08/12/why-pua-advice-is-often-wrong/
@ Rollo. Quality as always. The really interesting part (for me at least) is when in-field results don’t hold up with what theory predicts. Like when a guy whom I consider to be a huge beta snakes a girl from me. Granted any social theory is probabilistic rather than deterministic, but it’s nice to have a framework that explains as many outliers as possible.
Very well put. Also – know thy self (which a lot of people don’t or have not yet achieved)- and knowing or arriving at the recipe for your own success. Learning and the process of bettering one’s self is a life long thing which never stops. Failure and reflection goes a long way to achieving success. The internet helps with the process of reflection. In regards to doubters – I find they don’t realize or want to believe what success looks like when they see it in the flesh (or read about it). When comparing themselves to another more successful… Read more »
I’ve actually found more success in posting field reports to my own blog than any PUA forums. I get more honest feedback from people and they doubt me less. They’re able to offer advice not only about ‘pick up skills’ but about lifestyle choices, personal health, etc. As far as haters, you’re right in that we’ll always have them. Easier just to ignore them. And as far as theory vs real life…. You can get a great grasp of theory from the internet, and I think its important that people should before they go out. While I don’t think a… Read more »
The first few months of my red pill existence were productive and mildly eye-opening but when I read the field reports and PUA advice from that time, I thought it was all wildly exaggerated but useful from a ‘positive mindset’ sort of way. Then more by accident than design I found myself out drinking one night with an old work buddy who had moved to the other side of the city a decade before. I didn’t discuss ‘game’ with him yet I was amazed when I found out that he and his friend were ‘naturals’, totally ignorant of the existence… Read more »
@ AB While I don’t use my real name, I give out enough information that if someone actually wanted to find me, they could in probably 5-10 minutes of google searching. Like you, I’ve found it leads to a more honest discussion. Plus it just makes it so that I don’t have to deal with some of the ‘dual life’ issues I feel a large part of the ‘Sphere has to cope with because of their inability to be honest with who they are online while also being afraid of talking about this issues with the people they interact with… Read more »
Good post. There are a lot of snake oil salesmen out there. I think the more you read someone though you get a sense if they are for real. Rollo, I forget exactly when I first came across your writings…it was quite a number of years ago…but I quickly realized this was a guy who was writing from experience. I understand why some guys go the anonymity route. I don’t ever plan on running for political office so I don’t really give a shit. I write under my own name, and it would probably be pretty easy to find out… Read more »
Leap,
I’ll second your notion that their are armchair theorists of all stripes out there. In my view, there is simply no substitute for being out in the field and observing reality unfold. The time I spent bouncing was invaluable because I was able to observe stuff on a day to day basis. I think it is very easy to get lost in biased surveys, misinterpret data, and academic theories. It becomes even more problematic when you try to force all of that into a particular view that serves a particular agenda.
Agreed Mike. I also think that, as men, analyzing the data appeals a great deal to our strengths. Its very easy to start to enjoy simply reading the theories and data as an end in and of itself. These men enjoy being able to put the world in a box and see why they are failing, or make up stories about how they’re not, or reasons/excuses as to why they’re failing that shift the blame. Its much harder to go out and ‘simply’ take action after doing the reading. Even I have a hard time doing it sometimes as a… Read more »
In theory there’s no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is.
Yogi Bear?
Non-gamers use this argument all the time. “it’s probably all made up I mean there’s entire communities dedicated to writing Twilight fan fiction!!” Here’s the low-down in field reports: 1) there are hundreds of thousands of them. If you read a handful of field reports you are doing the equivalent of a scientist doing a survey of a handful of people. If you read thousands of them, you start to notice consistent patterns in them and the anomalies stand out more. It’s not issues with lingo, it’s issues with “the response that guy got was unusual and illogical, doesn’t follow… Read more »
Also in situations where something DOES seem unusual, generally what happens (or at least used to happen before pickup went mainstream and we got a bunch of tards flooding into the community) is that the person who wrote the report is asked a bunch of questions from everyone, trying to figure out if there are details/nuances left out that would explain the unusual result (“she fucked me as soon as I said hello” “wtf? Where was she?” “in my audience when I was playing my guitar on stage”). On top of that, the more studious PUAs will go out and… Read more »
Rollo, Not sure why you felt the need to post this. With the amount of blog posts alone, I’d be very surprised that you’re perpetrating so vast hoax on us hapless readers. Also, you’re words only cost me time so I’m free to ignore them if I like. From my perspective, Badger’s blog who I thought I found from you has given me tips on opening and field reports. I think I found Yohami’s blog because of you. He’s helped me tremendously with my inner game and the need to have many varied social connections. Once that was settled, I… Read more »
Michael, I didn’t take this post as “qualifying”. I think it had more to do with the debate on the Dry Spell comment thread. Anyways, I think the post is useful as a general warning about who to pay attention to on the Internet. I’ve seen examples of men in their 20s asking for advice on women from women in their 50s who have never approached a woman in their life because they’ve developed some Internet “cred” as Game knowledgeable. I’m sure Rollo can relate to this, but I”ve seen guys that look like stick figures trying to advise on… Read more »
On top of what Mike C said, I also took away from the post that there is value in writing about your experiences honestly, despite the haters. That way you can get masculine feedback and find ways to improve yourself that you wouldn’t have simply thinking it through yourself. In that feedback you still have to practice the same awareness of falsity as the posts you read.
I never looked at this blog as valuable in its practical examples. The value of RationaleMale is in the academic nature and treatment of the topics. This is my favorite manosphere blog. The interpretation of academic Evo Psych ideas into real world knowledge is invaluable. I wish you would compile it all into a book. I would have a hard time even saying which things you have written are the most valuable. I guess, at least today, I would say “War Brides”,. “Hypergamy doesn’t care about your relational equity”, “Good Girls”. Today I have had that photo in my head… Read more »
Cosign what Mark wrote
“And finally, there’d be the nonbelievers who’d accuse me of making it all up.” That’s a funny thing about taking the red pill and entering the Matrix. You have way more insane experiences than 99% of the population would think possible. The things that other men could only dream or fantasize of. If I hadn’t seen the things I have, or done so many crazy things myself, I probably wouldn’t believe it either. “understand that the validity of what anyone you have respect for professes or suggests you do, it’s still up to you to decide what works best for… Read more »
I’m a mom with an adult son who just got out of a potentially destructive relationship. The more his dad and I read around the manosphere the more we saw what this young woman was doing to him. Talking to him about red pill was difficult since he was in very deep with her and talking LTR, but his dad did a great job finally reaching him. When giving him more information about how to avoid similar situations and what blogs to read this site was one of the first of a handful we made sure he bookmarked on his… Read more »
This is all just wierd if not outright crazy.But shortly after finding this blog i actually found a woman and an AFC(he’s a friend) showing all the behaviours outlined.I mean it was like the blog was being played out in front of me.long story short,my afc friend alienated me for a chick who went to her ex for a fuck all the while he didnt get any action.shes moved on now but he still does not know anything or why it jappened.So no doubs here.
Btw rollo qualification is DLV.
Wow. I appreciate all the props, but honestly I wasn’t fishing for them by posting this. That probably sounds facetious now, but my intent was to bring to light that our online personas are what we’d have people believe they are, and I didn’t want anyone to think I was some notable exception to that. It’s like life is all ups and highs for everyone when you peruse their FaceBook profiles and check out all their vacation pictures. There’s such a disconnect from the reality of their lives, but I come to find that sooner or later that reality exposes… Read more »
Sweet deal Rollo. I honestly have no idea what the timeline is for editing, submitting, and publishing. Especially if you go the self publish/amazon route. When would we be able to expect it?
I ask for purely selfish reasons. I wouldn’t be sad at all about buying your book to compliment Athol’s for my blue bill brother that just got engaged. Thank god he’s looking at an extended engagement time, get to feed him bits of wisdom over time from out of state.
I agree and disagreee We have talked about this before on SS, and I will say this. Theory is great, and yes you need it. However it’s useless if you don’t know how to execute it. It’s useless if you don’t understand the concepts. Espeically to a guy who never has had success with women, or who doesn’t know how the concept works. Yes its motivional and inspiring but truth is 80% of theory is hogwash and doesn’t apply in field! I’ve gone out with tons of community guys Rollo and with most it’s the same. All they do is… Read more »
“It’s like life is all ups and highs for everyone when you peruse their FaceBook profiles and check out all their vacation pictures. There’s such a disconnect from the reality of their lives, but I come to find that sooner or later that reality exposes itself in a blogger or commenter through what they relate over the course of time.” Online does tend to lend itself to the ability to create grandiose illusions, but those are more because of how a person perceives what they see than an attempt at such by the personality. We do the same things in… Read more »
Can’t we have at least one article where GeishaKate doesn’t post a comment? I mean c’mon…even A.B. Dada will take a break now and then. And this is supposed to be the manosphere, after all…
Sure. Sorry. It’ll have to be the next article, obviously.
Ahh, I gotcha’ Mike C. I must admit, I haven’t been following that thread at all. I suppose that makes sense. Mark gave a much better response that I could so I’ll leave it at that.
…and wait to buy Rollo’s book.
@Solo
Agree completely with everything you wrote, including the assessment of the communities at the end.
It’s hard for people now to understand how much field experience was stressed back in the underground days. Theorists (aka certain regular commenters in the manosphere who very clearly don’t go out) were laughed at if they didn’t rigorously test their controversial theories.
Part of why I hit Heartiste and this blog is that both authors writing jives with game concepts. Even if they aren’t out in the field testing it, what they’re saying doesn’t contradict it.
Definitely agree that theory alone is useless. On the other hand, simply “doing it” (aka Naturals), without any theoretical basis, is fine as long as you are getting the girls you want. As far as posting FRs, I agree with you that you can always doubt the OP. Unless he posts videos of the pick up, then videos of the follow up, then videos of the bang, you will never know. Even just posting pics of the girls doesn’t mean much, I could be copying and pasting thousands of pics from chicks on facebook all day long. There is one… Read more »
Yup, with many PUA-type or conquest bragging posts I can barely get beyond the first paragraph because they usually reek of an exercise in creative writing as opposed to a real life experience. With many of them being impossible to verify as they are in, or claim to be in, some obscure or even mainstream spots far, far away from any chance encounter with their core Western audience.
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Fantasia August 18th, 2012 at 1:46 am Yup, with many PUA-type or conquest bragging posts I can barely get beyond the first paragraph because they usually reek of an exercise in creative writing as opposed to a real life experience. —————————————————————————————— In addition, don’t forget that to one extent or another, all blogs are “moderated”. Unless you’ve had a comment blocked and/or deleted, you have no idea what information is being withheld from you? The real world will always trump the web because of your lack of ability to control the behavior of the people in it. On the web,… Read more »
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