On July 20th my wife and I celebrate our 16th wedding anniversary. It’s no secret to my readers that I have a very good marriage and I’m constantly asked what my ‘secret’ is for keeping things positive, or the Oprah classic, “what do you do to ‘Keep It Fresh™‘?’. The manosphere is littered with stories of guys and their divorces contrasted against the stories of single guy’s decaying LTRs or dealing with recovering from them. I try not to make a habit of personalizing things that gloss myself, but when I do just understand it’s more from a sense of being a wild card. Guys with successful marriages (a dubious term at best) don’t really have the motivation to come to forums like the manosphere and share their insights. Why bother if that area of one’s life is more or less taken care of? So in light of this, I’ll share a few things I’ve learned in the last 16 years that make for a good marriage from my perspective.
Let me begin by giving you all some background; Mrs. Tomassi is my first marriage and Bebé Tomassi is my one and only daughter. As I’ve said before, by society’s current standards I’m a freak. I’m a freak in that I met my wife and we dated for 8 months (non-exclusively for 4) before I proposed to her. I was 28 when we married. After 2 years being married we decided to have one child – by design. My wife expected me to be a Man and I in turn expected her to be a Woman. I did not knock her up and then marry her. She was not a single mother, nor did she have excess baggage from previous relationships.
This is important to know, because when I relate stuff like this I often get the “well, you did everything right” response, when in fact every bit of what I enjoy with my wife today is due to me doing much more wrong. I had to unlearn what 26 or so years of feminized and emasculated teachings had taught me up to that point. Admittedly unaware, I had come across a unique situation – a woman who actually wanted a Man to be a Man, and in all honesty I was completely unprepared for it. I was an AFC (really a recovering AFC by that point due to a psychotic relationship prior to all this) and there was no community back then to inform me otherwise. I had read some of Dr. Warren Farrell’s books, but that was the extent of my own self-understanding with regard to my own gender conditioning.
Being the Driver
Now I had come across a woman who on our first date insisted that I drive HER car. My truck was a piece of shit of course , but after years of this gender equalism brainwashing, a woman, upfront, wanted me to take control. Since then I’ve always been the driver (with the exception of her driving us home after I had my wisdom teeth pulled). This was symbolic of how the next 16 years would play out.
Mrs. Tomassi is no push-over and she most certainly gives me shit tests even to this day. In fact I’ve described marriage as one life long shit test and I still hold to that, but from the begining she expected me to be positively masculine – to be the decider, to be the initiator, to have the ideas and to confidently execute them. Even in my worst failures, the fact that I attempted honestly was more important than the outcome. This may not have been the case in the short term, but in the long term is where you can see the appreciation in the behavior. We compliment each other in our understanding of our gender roles.
When we met my wife was dating two very rich men (we were non-exclusive, remember?), I had 2 nickels and a beat up pickup truck to my name. Mrs. Tomassi is a medical professional and the men she’d dated prior were E.R. doctors and specialists; guys making well over $300K annually. They had boats, cars, large homes, status, dispoasable wealth, and yet despite all of that I’m the one she pursued and locked in with (her Mom thought she was insane to marry me at the time). They had it made, but for all that wealth they were still clueless when it came to being Men – they were uncomfortable in their own masculinity. A lot of guys mistakenly believe that having a large bank account is the key to getting women, and while that might help in the short term, in the long term it’s to your own detriment (she’ll end up with half after the divorce) if you don’t ultimately kill the inner AFC and fearlessly embrace the postiveness of your own masculinity.
The Ingredients
There are so many aspects I can detail about what makes for a good marriage, but all of these really boil down to two things, genuine desire and mutual respect. Too many couples become complacent and comfortable in their marriages and this leads to a decline in both of these areas. A certain degree of subtle anxiety and constructive discontent is necessary for a good marriage. That comes off as negative to the plug-ins of the Matrix, but it’s really what makes each partner want to be better for themselves and each other. Taken too far it becomes abusive, but none at all and the marriage becomes stagnant which is equally dangerous. In the right proportion, this anxiety makes for a marriage that retains it’s mutual desire (which is really analogous to Interest Level) and mutual respect.
So how does this anxiety manifest itself? An easy example is staying in shape together. I can honestly say my wife is still hot (if not more so since the boob job). I want to bang my wife as often as humanly possible; how many men married for 10 years can make that statement? My wife is a piece of ass and I see guys eye her all the time. Likewise I’m a bodybuilder and keep myself in peak condition. I get women in their 20’s flirting with me often enough, and this confirms for her and myself that we are both desirable people – this is one example of this anxiety, and we both recognize it and respect each other for it.
There are other ways this anxiety can be applied, for instance C&F (cocky & funny) goes a long way in marriage. Mrs. Tomassi loves just enough C&F attitude from me to reaffirm her perception of my confidence. As I said earlier, marriage is a life long set of shit tests and carefully used C&F is a tool that can be used to diffuse a lot of these before they even happen. Confidence is still the thing that makes a woman want a man, even in marriage. Generally a shit test IS a test of confidence. Prior to marriage, it’s latent purpose is to help a woman determine whether a guy can provide for her long term security. After marriage, a shit test is used to reassure a woman that she married the right guy.
I’ve come to find that Game is even more necessary in marriage than when you’re single – there’s far more at stake when the commitment is intended to be for a lifetime.
I have a lot of rules I pop off with about LTRs & marriage. I emphasize that a man not even become monogamous until he’s 30 and that he shouldn’t consider marriage until his mid 30s. Again, I state this not because I did so myself, but from my side of the fence I can see the huge advantages to doing so now. Marriage should be a last resort, something to be forestalled until a Man, by virtue of years of experience, has the ability to recognize with measurable accuracy, a woman who deserves what he provides her. The PRIZE mentality is essential. A man must be a Prince first, before he can be a King when he marries.
After 16 years of marriage I can honestly say there are no appreciable advantages (outside of raising children) that a man cannot enjoy single that he can married. That’s not meant to be pessimistic, but rather a caution to emphasize how important it is to disabuse yourselves of this AFC, romanticized, marriage-as-goal mentality. It’s also not to say marriage is never worth it – just that marriage is complete advantage for women with negligible, if any, benefit for men. Marriage will either make a man’s life or destroy his life; enter into thinking about it like this and you’ll make a better decision. Is this person deserving of what I provide? Women will NEVER, even in the best of marriages, fully appreciate the sacrifices a man has to make in order to fulfill his commitment of marriage. Entering into a life-long binding commitment of fidelity that offers a man very little appreciable advantage, and knowing the totality of the risk he’s assuming in accepting that sacrifice will never be fully understood or appreciated by the woman he marries. This is why you have put your head into thinking whether she’s deserving of your provisioning, security, confidence, attention, etc. even when it goes against what you think is your kind and good-hearted nature. If you’ve come to a point where in spite of the acknowledged risks you still want to make that commitment, you must be as self-concerned about marriage as you would be in saving your own life.
congrats and thanks for the insight
Thank you so much for sharing this. What a great thing to read today. I love the car story. I like the fact that you had a short courtship. Not to say it should happen overnight, but I don’t understand dragging it all out. When you meet someone worthwhile, its like, well, let’s get on with it. Strike while the iron is hot and then keep striking. There is such a thing as relationship momentum, I believe. Its a bit of a sad commentary that not being married previously and having a child after marriage and by design makes you… Read more »
“I’ve come to find that Game is even more necessary in marriage than when you’re single – there’s far more at stake when the commitment is intended to be for a lifetime.”
Yes — read all the game stuff, then delete the parts about “Next…”, “Approach, Approach, Approach”, and close percentages (where 10-20% is good), and what are you left with? You really have to stay on the beam.
I coined the term “Driving Mr. Daisy” almost 12 years ago when a good friend told me about another friend of ours being driven around by his wife. If a man wants to make himself look like a pussy, the best place to start is to allow your girl/wife/etc to tote your lame ass around riding bitch.Do guys realize how pathetic & weak they look when sitting shotgun with a chick at the wheel. As my buddy stated so long ago about our passenger seat “Princess” of a friend “Be a man, and take the wheel”.
backtrack to the point where you were up against the other two guys your fiancee (at the time) was dating… how did you DHV consistently in that situation? Was there an inflection point in your game or did it come off more naturally through your experiences up to that point.
Since your wife was dating high status men before you, do you think there is a possibility these men had other options? Maybe she knew these men could always get younger, hotter, tighter in the near distant future? Hence a woman’s insecurity will take a safe bet? What happens when you stop gaming her.. a divorce?
Either way, I hope the best for you.
“she expected me to be positively masculine – to be the decider, to be the initiator, to have the ideas and to confidently execute them.”
Gold.
“Marriage should be a last resort, something to be forestalled until a Man, by virtue of years of experience, has the ability to recognize with measurable accuracy, a woman who deserves what he provides her. The PRIZE mentality is essential. A man must be a Prince first, before he can be a King when he marries.”
Gold 2
I understand all the ‘what ifs’, it’s exactly why I write what I do. I fully understand the variables that may or may not have influenced that decision to commit and I know my experiences are no road map to marital “success” for everyone. Game (for lack of a better term) is part of who I am now. I think too many guys think of Game as a constant effort; like something or someone they have to continually float to maintain their frame. In the beginning I’m sure this is true, but there comes a point where you either internalize… Read more »
one of the best posts about marriage written by married guy. Realistic to the core. Your recipe – be masculine as hell, lead, be your A plus – active, good job, good physique and your wife MAY be satisfied. You, sir understand this business very well. Anyway, after some nasty years in this marriage industry I feel the duty to tell young guys one thing: Do not think that the woman you see before marriage is the same woman you will be seing a couple of months after ceremony. Till mariage, woman is in acquisitive mode. Her imperative is to… Read more »
So true, here I am age 50, after a big split and I’d say the same thing knowing the pressure on a man to do all of those things. The other major thing I would say to young men out there is that even if your dream was to have children, if you split up, then at the very least the woman will be given primary care in 90% of cases and it might even get worse, you may not see them again. 50% of dads do not see their children regularly three years after a divorce. So even less… Read more »
@Alan
A life without women is shit, and more importantly it’s unnecessary.
The thing to do is get yourself in the top 10%. You can do it if you do the work.
At 50, you can get women on your own terms. Even very much younger ones.
Take it over to field reports and re build yourself.
It can be done.
@Palma At 50, you can get women on your own terms. Even very much younger ones. I don’t think this is what bothers Alan at this stage. It’s still very much disappointment and the bitter taste of the loss & the redpill. @Alan Stick to video games, airfix kits, surfing, football or whatever, just do not get tied down. I’m sure you’ll have some cosmic rationale But here you are with your faith And your Peter Pan advice […] Nowhere to look but inside Where we all respond to Pressure You have to learn to pace yourself Pressure You’re just… Read more »
Congratulations to both of you. And thank you for a great post. It takes both man and woman ingesting the red pill realization to make a marriage or LTR successful. My husband and I were married long before we got it. So for us, getting red pilled meant looking at what we have and what we could make it. I cannot work on him, and I cannot work on our relationship; working on me and what I bring to the table is the best I can do. I work on my femininity and use it to compliment his masculinity. I… Read more »
Maturity!
>>marriage will either make a man’s life or destroy his life; enter into thinking about it like this and you’ll make a better decision Really good post. Personally I’m against the concept in practice given my experiences and all the statistical and anecdotal evidence (and in theory too given it seems to pander to the feminine imperative rather than registering a protest by failing to comply against a corrupt system) except where kids are planned/involved, as you’re always at a disadvantage and the risks/costs being so high but maximum respect to anyone who makes it work. I think your guide… Read more »
(Gregg, I’ve said it before and a few others have said so too but you need to blog or perhaps do a guest blog for Rollo or someone else.)
You don’t make a robust enough connection between game for pick-up and game for marriage, and Athol Kay’s self-help Oprahism, while welcome insofar as he addresses a need, is not sufficient to gentle the bullish nihilism/hedonism of pick-up game. Your students not only need to understand how to transition from pick-up to LTR, [Plate Theory – Transitioning]they need to be made aware that the transition exists and is possible without trading in one’s man card. With your background — half of your adult life in the game, half of your life in LTR — you are perfectly positioned to lead… Read more »
@Greg. Very well put: After marriage, there is a big shift in powers and in female psyche as well. She now HAS the man. She will never respect him the way, she did before. Now he is HER man and another layers of her psyche activate. The survival and resplication program. The key to success here is never allowing her to completely, 100% “catch you.” That way, the romantic storybook never ends for her. Or, as Rollo puts it, there’s “a certain degree of subtle anxiety and constructive discontent [that’s] necessary for a good marriage.” I’ve been married for 23… Read more »
Hi Rollo, my first time commenting on your blog. Guys with successful marriages (a dubious term at best) don’t really have the motivation to come to forums like the manosphere and share their insights. That quote inspired me to out of the lurker’s hood. I’ve been following your blog for a while, but am more familiar with the forum you frequent. I guess I’m posting to kind of say, “You’re not alone bro.” A brief overview: I started working on overcoming being an Omega / AFC at around 16. Likewise at the time there wasn’t a community for me to… Read more »
Gnosis – excellent first post. As a man who struggles with the incentives to get married (as in, there are none…ha), I always appreciate a post from a happily married guy and how he makes it work. Please keep offering your views.
King A:
Juggler has married for the second time.
“Game Chi flowing”
Are you into qigong Rollo?
@John Galt, My advice to my nephews and single men I encounter is not to get married — even though I am happily married. Yes, it’s a contradiction. Call me a hypocrite if you like. As for reasons, there are many. The most valid ones that have been propagated throughout the manosphere already. Personally, my primary reason is this: It’s a Herculean task to find a decent woman in this day and age. The entitlement levels, condescending attitude and lack of agency I’ve seen in them is totally off-putting and dangerous. Marriage is risky enough without these three elements included.… Read more »
Corrections
para 2 – who knows and understands what the word commitment means
para 3.1 – then an honest answer is “yes”
para 3.2 – get to a point where you move on
Sorry about that.
While its tempting for “happily married” guys to think that they are the ones who made it so, it may just be that they got increadibly lucky. [Agreed]
Marriage in anglosphere is like russian roulette. Don’t do it no matter how different she seems.
Does not matter how alpha you think you are, when time comes, all she has to do is call her pimp (911).
Rollo, Congrats on your 16 years of happy marriage. You said you made the decision to marry before you discovered the red pill/game. So I am assuming that you still had the goal of finding “the one” for you when made the proposal to your wife? I am glad it all worked out but do you think you would have still gotten married had you gotten rid of your AFC mindset by then? Also, 16 years is a while back and the environment has only gotten worse; so if you were a young man today would you even consider getting… Read more »
Was there a prenup signed.
Gnosis – well put. Couple of my clients were weak men. It seems as we – men, have forgotten how hard and tough the world is and what is our duty, our mission. Maybe the reason is that western men are sheltered by bid daddy state. They no longer have to defend their home against wild animals and wild neighbours, they no longer need to be strong, positive, decisive and sharp as the razor to make it through. So they think that it is niceness, romance and good maneers that makes a man and women should appreciate them just for… Read more »
In a previous post I alluded to ways in which I gamed my wife. Given Rollo’s post, I figure now is a good time for my second post – ever. Heck, maybe I’ll become a contributor to the blog instead of a lurker 🙂 My wife shit-tested me consistently, long before I understood what a shit-test was. As I mentioned in my previous post, I had long understood that women were manipulative, and given my own personality quirks, I would blow my stack if pushed too far. Once I started to try to “be a nice guy”, I terminated these… Read more »
I was married for 18 years… a marriage I thought was successful until the end. The fact that it ended the way it did, with me completely caught off guard, made me realize something. I had become brainwashed by feminism. I was brought up to believe that marriage was supposed to be a partnership of equals and I treated my wife like my equal in every way. This was my problem. Women might tell you they want to be treated as equals, but they don’t mean it in the same sense that most men understand this. Men who try to… Read more »
@ Dillon – “Marriage in anglosphere is like russian roulette.” Not exactly. In Russian Roulette you typically only load one round. To get the metaphor to work you would have to load three!
In general, what should a guy do where marriage IS the end game for religious reasons? “Save us O Lord, from the wrath of the womynz!”
“.Do guys realize how pathetic & weak they look when sitting shotgun with a chick at the wheel.” It’s a common sight round these parts, rather than an exception. [reason A] the guy is blind dribbling drunk, and she’s been summoned to the pub, having delivered him there earlier in the day (rural area, but being the UK, seething with surveillance devices, snitches and cops (that last at chucking-out time only)) [reason B] failing to do the above, and has had drivers’ licence pulled for some while (although those guys eventually get given the heave-ho by ‘Er Indoors, as that… Read more »
Gnosis: Cosign your posts 100%. Agree that one of the most essential things a husband must be able to do is tell his wife “No” and stick to it. Other necessary skills: 1. A single man’s default position on marriage must be not to get married. He must not marry any woman who does not prove beyond a reasonable doubt that she is worthy of the enormous investment in time, money and resources he will have to make. The single man must walk away from any woman who presents him with the “I wanna get married or we’re breaking up”… Read more »
5. The husband must understand that his wife is not a man. She does not understand what it’s like to pop a boner in school. She doesn’t understand what sexual dry spells are like. She doesn’t understand the excruciating frustration of wanting, NEEDING sex and not being able to get it. She doesn’t understand that to a man, sex equates to love. She doesn’t understand how exquisitely painful sexual rejection is. She does not understand how deeply men love. She does not understand these things and she will never understand them. No amount of talking, discussion or marriage counseling will… Read more »
I have observed that there can never be perfect equality in a marriage. Either the man takes the dominant position or the woman does. There is never a balance. Women claim that they want a man who treats them as complete equals. They claim they want men to express their feelings and to rely on them sometimes, get in touch with their feminine side etc. But the reality is as soon as a man becomes relaxed and allows woman to take control she loses respect for him and begins to take him for granted. She also loses attraction towards him.… Read more »
Today, men bear a dual burden. Not only they have to fulfill the expectations due from a traditional provider and protector, but they also have to be desirable. They have to have looks, physique and know how to seduce women. The Men expect women to be desirable but they dont need to look up to them. We men have this instinct to facilitate women and still respect and be attracted to women even if they are helpless. Women dont have that instinct for men.
I would recommend people to read this garbage from RoleReboot.com
http://www.rolereboot.org/sex-and-relationships/details/2012-07-why-men-have-trouble-with-intimacy
” when time comes, all she has to do is call her pimp (911).”
Love it.
“Women will NEVER, even in the best of marriages, fully appreciate the sacrifices a man has to make in order to fulfill his commitment of marriage. Entering into a life-long binding commitment of fidelity that offers a man very little appreciable advantage, and knowing the totality of the risk he’s assuming in accepting that sacrifice will never be fully understood or appreciated by the woman he marries.” This is one of the Red Pill truths I managed to get through to a married man in my family. He was complaining that his wife doesn’t fully appreciate him and his sacrifices… Read more »
I’m not sure what’s better… the article or the comment section. I feel 10x smarter after reading the entire page. Thank you Rollo and everybody else.
Despite you being a total stranger I want to thank you for writing what you have, and continue to write. The BPD post’s & comments have really helped me understand my situation in a way that I – without this blog in particular – would’ve disregarded and misunderstood; as, relating with another human in realtime is far more validating and revealing than portions of acceptance in times when it’s been necessary. That makes little sense, yet is valid concerning my circumstance. I would hope you’d one day write more about your experience with a BPD woman, and in particular about… Read more »
A consideration a man should take in waiting until his 30’s for monogamy and marriage is the very real possibility of losing interest in it entirely by that age. Venting a woman to be your wife and mother your children is the most critical and tedious part of a man’s life and it’s hard not to ignore the fact that alot of women in todays society are not desirable in the wife category. A man should vent his potential wife for 3 years minimum. Even then, he still risks her waking up one morning suddenly feeling “unhappy”, and then you’re… Read more »
A MAN’S CONTINENT WAY 1. Contain your SEED in your LOINS until you find a WOMAN who truly deserves to receive it. 2. Contain your PLANS in your MIND until you can ACT on them. 3. Contain your FEELINGS in your HEART until you are CALM. 4. Contain your STRENGTH in your LIMBS until you are called to a worthy CHALLENGE. 5. Contain your FEARS in your SOUL until your COURAGE overcomes them. 6. Contain your MONEY in your PURSE until you can buy something truly VALUABLE. 7. Contain your HUNGER to your STOMACH until you have cooked a manly… Read more »
Well written. I’ve read these accounts in various forms on Sosuave but it’s always good to re-read. This is a small, small example of masculine and feminine framing, and I’ve repeated it ad nauseum, but here it is anyway: Whenever we are out, and my wife has cash and I don’t, when the bill/check arrives, she surreptitiously slips the cash to me. She expects me to pay even when I’m technically not. No other woman has ever done that, and I find it charming. Paying a bill isn’t even considered a “gender role” anymore; men and women have disposable cash… Read more »
A few months ago I was supposed to attend a motorcycle rally with a chick I was seeing at the time. My 34 year old bike is a bit temperamental and didn’t feel like running at that time so she offered to let me ride bitch on her parent’s trike that she was planning on borrowing.
Ride up and in front of my biker friends on the back of a big rig Harley piloted by a 100lb girl? Where do I sign up!
Mr. Tomassi, I used to think that I was part of a couple like that (in a open relationship style)… but recently, my alpha male has been reading your posts… And he is getting it wrong. He is taking advises that were made for beta men and is overdoing it. I used to feel satisfied with his cool and somewhat cold attitude before, but… Now he is just a annoying man that thinks I want to control him in every single moment. We argue a lot and I always feel miserable after every single fight… He just keeps pulling me… Read more »
Congrats on 16 years Rollo and blessing for many more.
In my view, the whole point of a relationship is for both parties to sacrifice a part of their sexual imperative in the interest of building something better which is more than the sum of its parts. For the man, this involves sacrificing his options for sexual variety, investing through his superior ability to gain status, resources, taking on risk, providing, and protecting. He should be prepared to shoulder burdens like these because he is better at it. For the woman, she must sacrifice her desire for the seed of the highest quality men (because, let’s face it, no matter… Read more »
Also consider that the moral compass should belong with he who has the harshest upbringing.. men’s often being a hell of a whole lot harsher than women’s.
Rollo, you mention that men make a sacrifice of their desire for sexual variety and their sex life in general, when he marries. But you are forgetting that for many men, marriage *is* the only or most feasible way to have a regular sex life. one-night-stands, flings, FWB’s, casual relationships – these are not for every guy. Most men dont get the opportunity to be promiscuous. Most men are simply not built for the going out in the jungle and hunting…physically or mentally. I dont want marriage. I dont even want a committed relationship at this stage But I feel… Read more »
How many men, particularly in the southern USA, can say that their wives/gf’s in their 40’s are hot enough to get a second look from other men?
Practically none.
Therefore, almost all men should not get married unless they can get turned on enough by a woman who cannot get second looks by men.
NMH
How many men in USA, in their 40’s, can go to a bar and pick up average looking women on a reasonable frequent basis ?
I can bet women in their 40’s would fare a lot better in that respect.
Dan:
I can’t imagine either gender has it easy in their 40s, but look at it this way: A woman in their 40s has next to nothing to offer eligible bachelors besides a few years of extremely dubious fertility. A man in his 40s can offer a woman a good thirty years of more of resources they’ve hopefully spent the last twenty years accumulating.
Even the best women can hardly expect to snag the best of both worlds – looks and resources – and only the most delusional average women think they have a reasonable shot at it.
Bully :
I wouldnt want to be a man who is wanted by a woman for his resources. I have more self respect than that. I dont know about you.
[…] Male – 16 Years On, The Meaning Of […]
[…] I saw a post on The Rational Male where I read: Women will NEVER, even in the best of marriages, fully appreciate the sacrifices a […]
So did your wife hit The Wall at age 30 like most females?
Cheers
Of course his wife hit The Wall at 30. They all do
Happy anniversary in case I miss saying that on the 20th.
https://boldanddetermined.com/6-years-pride-happy-birthday-bold-determined/?mc_cid=39ae7058f9&mc_eid=650c4f4717
“to be the decider, to be the initiator, to have the ideas and to confidently execute them.” So does a real woman not have ideas that she can execute confidently? Does she not also decide or initiate at times? I come from an evangelical background and this stuff killed us. We were not allowed as wives to decide on anything big or small unless given permission of course. Husbands make all decisions and we are forced to submit like we are just kids whether we agree with what they choose or not. This is how conservative Christians divide gender, with… Read more »
Ancadudar, that’s because half of your leadership will be used to fuck things up and ‘put the man to test’ for your entertainment, create drama for your entertainment and so on. Or, compare groups that are led by a female vs groups that are led by a male Or relationships that are run by the female vs relationships that are run by the male ————– That’s not so say all male – run relationships are perfect, or even good. Men have their own issues, then most men are basically bad at it. But when you have a woman in charge… Read more »
“Does it honestly kill attraction if a woman makes some of the decisions for the family,”
It kills YOUR OWN attraction for the man.
When you take the decisions, YOUR attraction and YOUR respect for the man goes down.
So the thing you’re demanding destroys YOUR fulfilment.
Yes you’re fucked up like that.
“YOHAMI Ancadudar, that’s because half of your leadership will be used to fuck things up and ‘put the man to test’ for your entertainment, create drama for your entertainment and so on. Or, compare groups that are led by a female vs groups that are led by a male Or relationships that are run by the female vs relationships that are run by the male Evangelical women run everything in the house as far as having to shoulder all of the work with no say in affairs, the men just come around to bark orders and “supervise”. Basically, if the… Read more »
Andaducar, “tyrannical” Yes – tyranny is bad regardless of which gender is performing it. If you’re being oppressed, by all means get out of that relationship and social circle. “controlling everything” Controlling / micromanaging falls in the feminine spectrum, and you sound more on the masculine spectrum. Which is probably how you fell in love with that guy to begin with. But in principle – do you want a relationship where you lead most of the time? “I’m not sure if you are married or not, but if your wife had a good idea and wanted to implement it, what… Read more »
YOHAMI, “tyrannical” Yes – tyranny is bad regardless of which gender is performing it. If you’re being oppressed, by all means get out of that relationship and social circle.” Yes, I think I need to leave Christianity, and fast! I love the concept of God, but the rest of the stuff in the Bible is dangerous for a woman. I am planning on leaving the relationship. ““controlling everything” Controlling / micromanaging falls in the feminine spectrum, and you sound more on the masculine spectrum. Which is probably how you fell in love with that guy to begin with. But in… Read more »
Ancadudar,
Cool – before you leave the guy, try having this conversation with him. Make sure he ‘gets it’.
Check the videos by Jordan Peterson if you haven’t, he has hours of good material on this stuff.
And it doesn’t surprise me that christian men don’t know how to me men – we’re all actively being pushed away from masculinity.
YOHAMI “Does it honestly kill attraction if a woman makes some of the decisions for the family,” It kills YOUR OWN attraction for the man. When you take the decisions, YOUR attraction and YOUR respect for the man goes down. So the thing you’re demanding destroys YOUR fulfilment. Yes you’re fucked up like that.” I’m not sure if you are married or not, but if your wife had a good idea and wanted to implement it, what would you do, would you allow her to do it? How do you guys make decisions in this arrangement, do you as a… Read more »
If you’re the real @Yohami, welcome back! Great to see you here again
As real as it gets!
Deti… you too. Just shared your comment with someone that needed to hear it tonight
“That’s because the masculinity wasn’t positive.”
Agree. Controlling, micromanaging, tyrannical – that’s not leadership.
But she chose him right?
palmasailor,
“Probably the best hypergamous option she had. AWALT.”
Hmm, I almost get the feeling that you guys use “hypergamous” as a nicer word for parisite.
“Hmm, I almost get the feeling that you guys use “hypergamous” as a nicer word for parisite.” It’s worse than calling women a parasite because it comes from hurt feelings. Do you remember the nicer, less tyranical, less controlling guys you passed over in order to snag your current partner? these are the guys who are hurt, can pointing at your hypergamy Hypergamy: your desire to find that ‘better man’, and trade up your existing relationship for an hypotetical one Which is also what makes it ‘so much fun’ for you to throw a challenge to the guy and see… Read more »
YOHAMI, “It’s worse than calling women a parasite because it comes from hurt feelings. Do you remember the nicer, less tyranical, less controlling guys you passed over in order to snag your current partner? these are the guys who are hurt, can pointing at your hypergamy” I only dated one other person at 19 for a few months. Years later, this is my second relationship and first serious one. It’s breaking down because of the religious conflict over gender roles. There’s nothing else I can do, I either comply with the Bible or I’m a heretic. I tried already, i’m… Read more »
“Which is also what makes it ‘so much fun’ for you to throw a challenge to the guy and see how he performs. It’s all fun and games until the time he doesn’t perform to your expectations, then it’s his time to be discarded and replaced.”
That is “the burden of performance”.
Great comments YOHAMI
@ancadudar
a woman would be thrilled to do it out of admiration for the man
I am planning on leaving the relationship.
There you go.
@YOHAMI
Controlling, micromanaging, tyrannical – that’s not leadership.
Alphas have different reference experiences than betas.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Zi9Pw7UsF4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfOIQ0yTYRY
Cool – before you leave the guy, try having this conversation with him. Make sure he ‘gets it’.
Nope, he doesn’t and a conversation with a female won’t fix it. Send him over here.
Unfortunately, ‘sending over’ is usually done by ‘checking out’… which is ‘in progress’ in this case…
IRL,
“Nope, he doesn’t and a conversation with a female won’t fix it.”
Yeah, but it’s the difference between doing it in the open or behind his back. The former allows him to make his move, maybe even wake the fuck up.
“Send him over here.”
That too.
@IRL “a woman would be thrilled to do it out of admiration for the man I am planning on leaving the relationship.” A woman doing something a man asks her out of love and respect for him is different than being told because women were created to just be the “helpers” of men, we must serve them on command. A none Christian man who loves and protects his wife asks if she will iron his shirt, and a good woman will be glad to do it and take pride in it, when a conservative Christian man says it, it’s not… Read more »
“Hypergamy: your desire to find that ‘better man’, and trade up your existing relationship for an hypotetical one”
I had no idea this is what it really meant, it’s my first time on the site and I only read a few articles.”
And it was at this moment she knew she fucked up.
@YOHAMI: “Cool – before you leave the guy, try having this conversation with him. Make sure he ‘gets it’.”
She won’t do it, YOHAMI.
Women desire a Man who “Just gets it” without her having to “explain it to him”. That is why we have this “I want to give a man a challenge and see what he does, it’s seriously fun” mind set in females. The purpose of the “Shits tests” is to see if the Man “Just Gets It”.
https://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/
@Incubus_Rising “She won’t do it, YOHAMI.” Your right I won’t do it, a year later of intense fights, being called rebellious, having the pastor call me a Jezebel, and I won’t do it. My whole faith is down the drain. It’s not just the relationship I’m losing here. My whole understanding of male leadership is messed up now. This conflict now between a craving for male dominance on an instinctual level, mixed with disgust of being indoctrinated by the Church for years that women need to be led in all areas of their lives by men and must submit. I… Read more »
YOHAMI That was a concise and impressive examination of the facts. I appreciated it. I can’t reconcile what I’ve seen with what I’m seeing. Evangelical Christian men, of which I know a great many, are the last men that harrumph around trying to maximize control over their wives. Quite the opposite. By their training they mostly tend towards the emotional and non-confrontational. They are instructed to lead their wives by “servant leadership”, which means in practice to defer to her extensively, if not exclusively in all things, do a lot of choreplay, etc.; and that her happiness is the barometer… Read more »
@Lost Patrol It’s not what you think. It’s getting fanatical, really really fanatical. Try to listen to some videos from John Piper, Mark Discroll, Bruce Ware, they teach to control everything. There are men now who are leaving these groups because they see the damage it has done to their wives. The message goes like this, since Christ leads the Chruch, then women can never lead in the home because the Chruch never leads Christ. Women must submit in everything because the Church submits in everything. Husbands must control everything because Christ controls everything. Everything except for sin of course.… Read more »
Ancadudar, “I disagree, my brain is capable of leading” You’re not a typical girl. We’re talking about generalities. Then there are feminine men and masculine women. In your case you seem to have a feminine drive and core (want me a real man!, won’t tell him how to fix this) with a masculine surface and tools. Here you are, talking arguments, using logic, looking for middle grounds etc. So likely your guy fits you in the opposite spectrum – maybe he has a masculine core and a feminine (controlling) surface. If you learn to say “No” while staying on the… Read more »
“Evangelical women run everything in the house as far as having to shoulder all of the work with no say in affairs, the men just come around to bark orders and “supervise” Total bullshit. I let her choose what we’re eating and how my underwear is folded. “our female roles, so they command really often. It’s exasperating and humiliating. So yes, I’m leaving the relationship and religion.” So long honey. You’ve been living a figment of choice when all this time you’ve committed yourself to divorce. You haven’t thought this through. You’ve been on a scavenger hunt for justification. No… Read more »
I love to lead, and I draw strength from it. I also have a vision for my family Paul encourages women to lead in the home–they should be able to manage household affairs without the man having to get involved…household servants, grocery budgets, etc. When it comes to partnership issues, the man ought to lead, although it’s fine for the woman to offer suggestions and alternatives. If the man screws that up, well, she has made her bed and she has to lie on it. But men learn and improve over time, typically, so it may just be a matter… Read more »
“You know why you act up? You are sending a signal. You are looking for somone… who will… Take.you.in.hand”
What I discovered is that evangelical Christian men are trying to lead and control their wives without having any of the masculine qualities and concepts of male leadership that the Romans had. Dalrock discusses evangelical screw-ups on his site, especially as regards feminism invading the Church. Feminism and Christianity don’t mix well. Tbh, feminism and biology don’t mix well either. Feminism labored for No Fault Divorce laws, and now we’re shocked (!) that divorce has mushroomed. Feminism weakens men and shames masculinity. There was no crisis of masculinity 70 years ago when divorce was rare. Men had higher status 70… Read more »
“Women try to act like men and men try to act like women.”
Yup. Fuck feminism.
@theasdgamer I think the secular form of male leadership that is being promoted here sounds healthier than the Christian one. The Christian one is trying to live a metaphor where everything is black and white based off of an illusion. Do you know how stupid it is to say the man must decide everything but then tell them to defer to wives because of servant leadership? All that says is that a woman cannot make a choice for herself and needs permission. It’s better to just have a basic understanding that the man will take a stronger lead and allow… Read more »
Interesting back and forth banter. She reads like a fiction writer , makes me want to look for the bible belt of old.
A nice break from the void caused beta male games of the main thread.
mixed with disgust of being indoctrinated by the Church for years that women need to be led in all areas of their lives by men Funny, most “Christian” teaching now seems to be aimed at getting men to accept female leadership. I haven’t seen this thing that you’re talking about for a long time. As far as women acting like women goes…I like girlie girls…long hair…skirts or dresses…a wiggle in a walk and a giggle in a talk…melodious voices…I don’t like short hair on a woman…I don’t like pants on a woman…men wear pants…they don’t wear skirts or dresses…a woman… Read more »
My whole faith is down the drain. It’s not just the relationship I’m losing here.
So, your broken relationship means that Christ didn’t rise from the dead? I have to wonder about your idea of Christianity and the Bible. It seems strange.
@ancadudar You wouldn’t care about all that if his value in your eyes was through the roof. If his choices, decisions and life were proving this in the long term. You’re stressed/frustrated because you’ve realized you may be with someone who doesn’t display these traits. It’s not about you leading, being right or treated gently. Him being ‘nice’ and ‘equal’ would bring relief only temporarily… if at all. Because deep down you’d know he’s failing as a Man. So you’re hoping to find one who can solve your problems and take care of you the way you think you need… Read more »
@ancadudar
I’m not sure what you get out of this site. You are not really the intended audience. It is not meant to be a place to teach women how to “fix” their husbands to make themselves happy. Athol Kay’s site might be a bit more to your liking.
It is more meant for people like your husband on how to make themselves their own mental point of origin. You could send him here, but I suspect it won’t do any good, because then he is learning tricks, and doesn’t “just get it.”
“I’m not sure what you get out of this site.”
Contact with masculine men. What can be better than that?
Do you know how stupid it is to say the man must decide everything but then tell them to defer to wives because of servant leadership? All that says is that a woman cannot make a choice for herself and needs permission.
And, conversely, men are never allowed to make decisions. It’s retarded and that’s what you get when you try to mix feminism with Christianity.
“All I want is what I’ve not got … and what I need is all around me.” ~ Dave Matthews – and every woman I’ve ever come in contact with, like ancadudar.
@ancadudar
Leadership requires risk-taking, and women tend to be risk-averse. (Women, for good reason, avoid combat roles, for example.) Mere brain power doesn’t connote good leadership. It really is all about the testes and biology.
“He makes all decisions and I am only on standby for direction.” If he started Alpha and set you straight in the bedroom, you’d see that Alpha in him still and his dominant behavior wouldn’t be a surprise, though you’d shit test it for authenticity. But he didn’t so…you married Beta, you knew it then, were “happy” with the egalitarianism and now have buyers remorse as he’s shedding his Beta. “Bullshit!” she says. Fuck the church, fuck masculinity programs! Why? Because the MAN UP OR SHUT UP pap you write, think, live is how you’ve twisted masculinity to serve your… Read more »
“I’m not sure what you get out of this site.” Contact with masculine men. What can be better than that? It’s always this… just the internet version of a GNO, where it can “just happen”… If this site had DM’s, it would be better than Tinder… All that says is that a woman cannot make a choice for herself and needs permission. well women make choices all the time. It;s just they are emotion driven. in the moment. So when the emotion changes, the decision changes. Then they lack accountability – to themselves foremost – for the choices they made.… Read more »
YOHAMI, “If you learn to say “No” while staying on the relationship maybe he’d find a way. Someone has to be smarter there. Send him here. Let him be red-pilled.” I’ll try, but I’m not hopeful. Sigma, “I’m not sure what you get out of this site. You are not really the intended audience. It is not meant to be a place to teach women how to “fix” their husbands to make themselves happy. Athol Kay’s site might be a bit more to your liking.” I didn’t come here to try and fix my marriage. I researched stuff on masculinity… Read more »
” If they are anchored in the masculine, they can lead ” If you were anchored in the masculine you would be looking for a FIX for the problem, and trying to land a win / win scenario, that’s what a leader would do. Instead you’re looking for a way out that is a win for you only, a trade up, at the expenses of the people you’re in relationships with and your community. This is not me judging you: if they are tyrannical, fuck them. My point is that this is not leadership. But “a woman can lead… if… Read more »
Also, it depends in what areas they are leading in.
We know.
“He makes all the decisions”
…something smells funny about this
“Sounds like your saying women can’t lead. I say they can.”
And then the qualifying depends, depends, depends.
Tell us something, honey. What are your measurements? Weight, height? Dyed hair? What color? How often you wear heels and yoga pants? How you drink your coffee?
No snark.
They may not be as prominent in it as men, but they can lead and be good at it. Also, it depends in what areas they are leading in. If they are anchored in the masculine, they can lead out from there just fine depending on skill of course. Women don’t have enough testosterone to be good leaders, excepting in the home. That’s why so many women are 2nd rate women…they are trying to be men. Women are programmed by culture to try to be men and do male things like sports, be combat soldiers, etc. And women grow up… Read more »
Good luck anchoring a woman in the masculine.
fried ice
“If you put them in charge of security or structural things they will crash it, but IF THE BOUNDARIES / FRAME ARE IN PLACE FROM THE MASCULINE then they can be great leaders say in humanitarian areas.”
Do you even realize your arguments support the fact that “women cannot lead”?
https://therationalmale.com/2016/11/26/the-unbearable-rightness-of-being-female/
https://therationalmale.com/2016/04/24/fempowerment/
I like most the extreme terms she uses…tyrannical, hah. Protests too much, she does.
She’s unhaaaaaapy, so she concocts this dialogue and thrills over the emotional abuse we’re giving her…the emotional dominance she wishes her dude would unleash between the sheets.
She wants the D she does.
ASD
The US Women’s National Soccer Team where the best women soccer players can be found couldn’t beat just about any average men’s college soccer team.
You mean high school teams…
https://www.cbssports.com/soccer/news/a-dallas-fc-under-15-boys-squad-beat-the-u-s-womens-national-team-in-a-scrimmage/
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-women%E2%80%99s-national-teams-keep-losing-to-young-boys%E2%80%99-teams
Not just soccer…
https://www.newschoolers.com/forum/thread/771689/US-Women-s-Olympic-Hockey-loses-to-high-school-boys
“Good luck anchoring a woman in the masculine.”
How about trying to anchor a woman in the feminine? That would be a good start.
Incubus,
“if the boundaries/frame are in place from the masculine then they can be great leaders say in humanitarian areas.”
Yeah – if the men build the rules and the structure then women can ‘lead’, which actually means, telling other people how to please her.
But shortly her ‘nesting’ impulse will take over. Which means: make the space safe, capitalize in all the resources, decorate everything to signal ownership, get rid of the competition including all the other pretty women, bring the castrated beta backrubbers, find a way to dominate the alpha dudes.
Every time.
YOHAMI, It seems like from what everyone is now saying, that it must always be the woman’s fault. Also, I’m guessing you guys all think women cannot and should not lead. If she does, she is either not a real leader or she is trying to act like a man. This is where things get out of hand and feminism, despite all its flaws, has some merit in protecting human rights. Things have a domino effect. If by this logic legal rights were removed from women having any positions of power because it is perceived that they can’t lead even… Read more »
Literature?
Feminism protects?
Interesting.
“I’ll remember to get back into the kitchen.”
Shoes off, toots. Make me meatloaf.
When society views a class of people as property, abuses are sure to occur in mass.
See “beta males”…
Cute! I’ll remember to get back into the kitchen.
How is your leadership there? Can you manage one? What’s for dinner?
Is this woman Wildman in drag?
“Cute! I’ll remember to get back into the kitchen.”
That is very cute indeed! If only more women did that, there would be less traffic on the roads and a lot less chaos in the world.