Not to belabor the fresh input contributed by new Rational Reader ‘S’, but her recent comment regarding The Wall has made me aware that I haven’t yet gone into too much detail regarding the Wall and its socio-psychological effects upon women:
Yeah, it’s a term I have seen before arriving at this blog but have never heard in reality. I always attributed it to a woman losing her looks but to place it at exactly 30 seems to me to be too precise a calculation…as there are many variable to be taken into consideration I would imagine. For example, a party girl, serial tanner and smoker could probably lose her looks long before she reaches 30, whereas a clean living late bloomer might not even realize her potential until her mid to late twenties. I’ve seen women from my school..the most popular girls (with guys) changed the most in a negative manner and the nerds or just the most unexpected girls have become more attractive over the years. It’s freaking odd.
The infamous Wall a woman reaches (or slams into as the case may be) is somewhat of an ambiguous term that was actually coined by catty women long before the manosphere came into existence. It used to be a relatively less combative term that women used for one another in an effort to disqualify a sexual competitor. A woman implying another woman had “hit the wall” was marginally more polite than calling her a slut, but the latent purpose is still the same – disqualifying a sexual competitor from men’s mating considerations.
The Fear of Decay
Underneath the obvious utility of the Wall as an epithet is a more painful truth; the inevitable decay of women’s sexual appeal – their first, and for most, only, real agency of power they’ve ever actualized over men to ensure their long term security needs. In the heyday of 2nd wave feminism, the sisterhood’s message was all about collective empowerment and solidarity, but beneath that was the intrinsic hypergamic need to compete for the best mate their looks and sexual availability could attract. As I’ve written before, women prefer their combat in the psychological and there are few fears women harbor as deep and as long as losing their sexual agency with men. They know the Wall will eventually come, and they don’t like to be reminded of it.
Women’s intrasexual combative use of the knowledge and fear of the Wall did not go unnoticed by men. Therefore the feminine imperative found it necessary to make the truth about the Wall as socially and individually subjective as possible. As with most uncomfortable truths unique to women’s weaknesses, the feminine creates social conventions and ambiguities to misdirect men from becoming aware of women’s eventual powerlessness over them (i.e. the progressive loss of her sexual agency). The Threat of having men become aware of women’s Achilles’ heel before they could consolidate long-term commitment with their best hypergamic option was too great a risk not to form social conventions about the Wall.
Implications of the Wall
Thus, in an intergender social context, the Wall became individualized and subjective for women, and it’s within this framework that women like S are most comfortable in addressing the reality of the Wall. “Not all women are like that” (NAWALT), the go-to mantra of feminized subjectivity, is a direct result of subjectivizing the inevitability of the Wall. In fact, virtually every operative social convention women rely upon for empowerment and self-esteem finds its root purpose in avoiding the fear of the Wall. The Myth of Sexual Peak, the Myth of the Biological Clock, the social convention that Women are just as Sexual as Men, are all very complex social rationales with the latent purpose of convincing the majority of men and women alike that post-Wall women can still be equally effective sexual competitors with pre-Wall women.
It’s important to bear in mind that all of these complex social conventions are rooted in a fear of the Wall. I’m repeating this point to emphasize the importance this has in a feminized society that’s subjected to feminine hypergamy as its most operative doctrine. When enough women, through cultural forces or personal circumstance, can’t capitalize upon what they think is their due, optimal hypergamic male option, then society must be acculturated to believe that women past their Wall expiration date can and should be just as desirable as those in their prime. Think of it as a retroactive social moving of the feminized goalposts. This is the gravity and extent that the fear of the Wall plays for women – feminized society is literally structured around avoiding it.
Defining the Wall
When I wrote Navigating the SMP, the reason I used 30 as the general age women typically hit the ‘Wall’ is really a combination of factors. Most importantly it represents the threshold at which most women realize their lessened capacity to sexually compete with the next generation of women in their ‘actualized’ sexual peak (22-24). However, there is a male part of the Wall equation that needs to be understood. 30 is also the general age at which men (should) become aware of their own, longer-lasting sexual market value and potential. This affects women’s interpretations of the Wall. Once a Man is aware that he has the capacity to attract the sexual attentions of the younger women he’d previously had limited access and understanding of, his actions and imperatives define the Wall for women who are approaching that threshold. And unsurprisingly this is the point at which Wall-fearing women begin their accusations of men’s infantile ego issues, shaming, etc. for preferring younger women than themselves.
When we (and as women in particular would have us) view the Wall in terms of physical attractiveness we don’t see the full picture and relevancy the Wall has for women. It’s very easy (and often fun) to compare pictures of girls we knew in high school with their current FaceBook profile shots at 40+ years old and get a laugh at how bad she hit the Wall. It’s also easy for women to point out the notable exceptions to the rule and find a hot 38 year old woman with 3 kids competing in the Ms. Fitness USA pageant. It gives them a sense of hope about their own decay.
However the Wall is much more than just the physical; it’s the conditional that accelerates or decelerates a woman’s date with the Wall.
Single mother? Acceleration.
Consistent, bad personal habits? Acceleration.
Careerist obsessive? Acceleration.
Obesity? Acceleration.
Do notable exceptions to these exist? Of course, but they prove the rule. And that rule comes in the form of such an overwhelming fear that contemporary society needed to be restructured to help avoid it. The 38 year old, careerist, single mother of 3 competing in fitness pageants is only a hero because of the fear of the Wall.
Yup.
Women definetly fear it, but what is the most surprising aspect of it all is the uttle inability of a woman to settle for a nice beta. She would rather roll the dice and dance with the devil that is “the wall” then give in and settle for a hopeless beta. It’s a shocking indictment of the power of their hypergamey instinct that any woman at the ege of 33 and up would turn down any marriage or committment proposal from any half decent man. But you look through society and it is happening regularly. Note the rate massive amount… Read more »
Re settling: the trouble is, women have become too smart for their own good. For a relationship to work, the man needs to be and STAY superior. Once a woman has been in a “failed” relationship as a result of the above requirement not being met, it becomes not only that she “can’t” settle, but also that she “won’t.” What does it do to a man to be with a woman who, in most areas, outstrips him and who he can never please? It is not good for her, but also not good for HIM.
Good point.
Which is why women need to understand that the more successful they become the HARDER it is for them to find a sexy, high value man. Women need to learn that if they pursue their career then pursue the career for love of the career but NOT because of the notion that it will help them get a better man. That is not the way men are wired. We don’t select women for accomplishments. We select women for beauty and then femininity and fidelity (good luck with that last one). Money and career don’t really help women. The most you… Read more »
The ‘ol going to college to find a husband, eh? Having money and a career are helpful to a woman if she needs to support herself (as in after a divorce). Having money/property (dowry) can be a detrimental as it can demotivate men who may lose their instinct to provide or attract men who won’t want to.
…and tha’ts why i’ve always gone for protectors rather than providers–something few women try to do–there are plenty of strong, smart, if under-educated, good men out there to whom the women of their own social class are nothing but revolting tattooed pigs and single moms…they can make wonderful mates if YOU aren’t the type of woman who can only respect a man for the size of his wallet. the woman CAN earn more than the man, she can even be the provider, as long as she RESPECTS him for some attribute and is able to show it regularly–wallet size and… Read more »
I can’t do under-educated. I really can’t. Believe me, I have met men who are exceptional athletes, have exceptional hearts, or had excpetional financial sucess; but its exceptional insight that is most important to me. Because of my life experiences of always looking out for myself, I really, really do want that provider in the tradional sense. I’ve bucked tradition long enough.
It also doesn’t help her that the guys who do fit all of those requirements don’t find her attractive compared to her competition.
These women, which stay over in the marketplace, can’t commit. They can only survive as an exterior of some “Alpha” or some “Gamma”, meaning third world practically. The stupid thing is, that betas don’t want to recognize, that they won’t ever get what they think might be possible with such a girl. The reason is, that they often have personality disorders, requiring them to project bad habits onto others. It stays a bad decision to adapt towards a narcissists, cause you might end up as a gamma or playstick and will be dragged down.
One of the hottest women I dated was a 41 year old (I was 32 at the time). She was a dance instructor, and naturally kept herself in amazing shape. I’m not afraid to say she had the body of an 18-year-old and I liked it. She’d never had kids, never been married, never smoked, avoided alcohol and drugs. She also wasn’t career crazy in spite of being very successful at her craft. She also had a terrific personality. I’d say she was a great package for a woman her age. Only thing was I was 32 and not serious… Read more »
Women don’t fear the Wall until it’s too late. Since their peak fertility starts to dissipate around 27y/o so does the beauty. Have you heard, many western women believe in Pretty Lies…
Yeah, the girl I was last seeing talked incessantly about having my children. But that also involved having my children when she was at least 33 to 35 years old, and of course when we were both in our careers, stable income, she could support the child with or without me, etc..She, more than once, implored me to give her children at least later in life if I’m not married. I told her I’d be more than happy to give her my offspring around that age, as long as another man was raising them. I told her it’d be perfect.… Read more »
Cue: “29 – 31” video by Garfunkel and Oats
This pretty much sums up the average woman’s perspective of the Wall: A woman’s desire for men to “man up” is inversely correlated to the number of dating options she has. The more men she has in the pipeline, the less likely she’ll care if a guy mans up or not. Do you think a hot 21 year old co-ed, who is getting more attention than she can handle, who has guys desperately trying to wife her up, really notices that men in Western society are withdrawing from the marriage game? Things couldn’t be more peachy in her world because… Read more »
While S may be right that women have “other qualities” that are important, beauty is the threshold.
Susan Boyle has a magnificent voice, but there is nothing about her that would draw the vast majority of men to her to want to find out that or anything else.
Its a free ticket for so long, they don’t realize it expires and once it does, you can’t get back in.
Ever.
There is something else added to this mix that Rollo just touches on that this is for most women their only agency and power. The old structure of society gave them power over the long term with family. More and more women don’t have families, they have broods and when you think of the disruption divorce and single mom’s cause, there really isn’t any significant extended family. They don’t have anything to replace it with except a career, and most people don’t have exciting powerful careers. I suspect this lack of power is why there are so many female lawyers,… Read more »
… and why so many animals now have “mommies” instead of owners.
Nice post. I’d like to add something to your list of other elements that make women hit “the wall.” You mention things like “single mother” and “bad personal habits,” but what I find most separates older women from younger are 1). The creeping, creepy eccentricity that overtakes women’s personalities as they age and 2). The bitterness that can actually be more unattractive than their looks. From field experience, I’ve had to deal with both of these things, and it ain’t pretty. The eccentricities women develop include things like obsessions with the vegan religion (which is what it is, really), treating… Read more »
Excellent point made about a woman’s attitude and demeanor as she ages. Young, fun,optimistic women are simply much more pleasant to be around than pushy, bossy, demanding, aging broads with desperate baby-making agenda.
The approach of The Wall. That time when we realize almost everything we have been dependent on our whole lives in dealing with men(and some women) is coming to/at an end. The attention that was so easy to get, goes away. And for so many, they never learned anything else that men enjoy that would go beyond those looks. As I said on the previous post, damn scary stuff.
This is why I strongly believe that women should invest in both their external and internal attractiveness from an early age.
“The creeping, creepy eccentricity that overtakes women’s personalities as they age and 2). The bitterness that can actually be more unattractive than their looks.”
I deal with this far too much and it’s vastly annoying. Plus, a woman’s dating checklist in acceptable men actually grows with age. It’s quite counter intuitive when a 40-something woman adds something else to her reasons for rejecting a man. Seriously, WTF?
It actually makes a strange kind of sense. As a woman ages, but doesn’t find a man, she compensates for this by believing all the pretty lies. Fat? Well, it’s still beautiful, so I deserve more! Career? Men love intelligent women, so I deserve more! Single mother? All single mothers are the most sacrificial creatures and are to be commended, so I deserve more! It’s a way to compensate and still feel good about themselves without giving up what they think they want. Also, then they can blame men for not finding their awesomeness attractive and not take a deeper… Read more »
Well put Stingray, to re-state your idea in another way, as the wall approaches, the hamster inflates to cushion impact.
here’s the thing though, i am 42 and grew up through the heart of feminism and NO ONE EVEN INTIMATED THE WALL EXISTED–you know why? because when i was young most women of the older generation had still gotten and stayed married, and were more concerned with their kids giving them grandkids than picking up men at 45. the horror of the wall is a phenomenon of my generation’s single career gal, maybe lower boomers too, like divorced women in their early 50s now. seems to me one or two young generations of gals watching my generation of women die… Read more »
Excellent, excellent point.
I hope the younger generation of women looks at the current generation of overweight, overly tattooed single moms and collectively says through their actions and behavior, “We don’t want to be like that.”
dana: women of the era you’re talking about (who are in their 50s and 60s now and remained married to their first and only husbands) viewed the SMP quite differently. But they understood keenly that a young woman’s greatest assets (her youth and her beauty) would not last forever. They knew their daughters would do well to focus on finding husbands, because that task would only get increasingly difficult with each passing year. SO these young women had moms and grandmamas who were telling their younger counterparts not to waste time and not to be stupid with Alpha McGorgeous or… Read more »
“women of the era you’re talking about (who are in their 50s and 60s now and remained married to their first and only husbands) viewed the SMP quite differently.” These women, who stayed married for the most part, also got a get-out-of-wall free pass, so to speak. When you’re with a partner for a long time, you notice their aging a lot less than when you meet a person at, say, 35 for the first time. In the first example, you still “see” the 20-year-old you first met; in the second all you ever see is the 35-year-old. Unless she… Read more »
THe problem is that now, we have moms who have divorced their first husbands and are THEMSELVES getting pumped and dumped by the aforementioned stock alpha archetypical caricatures.
seems to me one or two young generations of gals watching my generation of women die crazy and alone unloved with cats may do more to cure what ails us than 1000 MRA movements and christian marriage websites
This is what I keep trying to tell the doom mongers. Nature rebalances us after excess. Sometimes with epic pain.
But we are children of the transition. It matters how we manage the reversion to the mean. Gay “marriage” and Slut Walks ain’t the way.
Women have restructured western society for fear of the Wall. Who knew women ruling society could be so vain and utterly dangerous and irresponsible? Oh yeah God for all eternity, and men for thousands of years. When feminism is finally dead, men will just shake their heads and say, “how did we let this go on for so long?”
I would add that according to current scientific understanding 95% of women’s eggs are no longer viable by the time they reach 30 years of age. Heartiste has the link to that study on his blog somewhere.
The figure is actually 90%..http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnCall/women-fertility-falls-lose-90-percent-eggs-30/story?id=9693015#.UAb-GmFfH-s
Massive crush of hamster delusion in the comments. Not schocking of course.
Example:
“I think this studied is radically flawed. I also have great belief that there may be some ulterior motives driving this. Almost all of my female friends had children after 30 without any difficulties and they come from multiple backgrounds. Some of them were even smokers in their 20s. I have a friend with 3 children, all conceived after 30.”
And so on…
I would not say the study is radically flawed..there has to be an element of truth. However, I doubt these people are lying. My mother had most of her children in her thirties and this was a woman who was told that she’d *never* conceive, at all. It’s different for all. Still I would not use these peoples and even my own observations as a basis to wait until my thirties to find a LTR.
“It’s different for all.”
Usually it isnt.
Are you trying to suggest that clones walk among us Yohami? 😉
S:
Your mother is an outlier.
And quite fortunate to be able to carry more than one child to term after 30.
slores gonna slore….only so long before sloring catches up with you and now these women are crying about “no men being left”.
http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/11/all-the-single-ladies/8654/
^^nothing gives me more personal satisfaction when reality strikes one of these slores. They live in their own little world and once they realize that that world is just a figment of their imgination, they become resentful and bitter. This article is an example of the reality that will that will hit many of these “indendpent women” very soon!
“I was trying to wife you at 21 but you were dumb more worried about having fun”–Drake.
The wall is a term borrowed from long-distance running. You “hit the wall” when you deplete your muscle-store of energy and experience sudden severe fatigue. Along the same athletic lines, female sexual market value is roughly equivalent to a professional tennis player’s performance curve. Roger Federer and Serena Williams will still gather trophies, but not nearly at the same pace. Ninety-five percent of their accomplishments are in the past. Though they seem to have been around forever, they are both only 30-years-old. Men’s performance tracks more along the lines of golfers. Less dependent on peak physicality, like women. More dependent… Read more »
Thanks Rollo for going into more detail regarding this subject matter. I think it is something everyone woman fears (as I described earlier in a previous comment regarding the ladies who have shit injected into them far too prematurely in an attempt to prolong their allure…sadly ruining their faces). You see a large amount of women ruining their looks with their choices (Lindsay Lohan for example…she looks like HELL at 25). I will admit, I am afraid of it (this “Wall”). In fact, I often feel angry when men compliment me on the basis of my physical appearance because I… Read more »
In fact, I often feel angry when men compliment me on the basis of my physical appearance because I know it is not going to last
S, read this:
http://alphagameplan.blogspot.jp/2012/07/why-your-old-wife-is-still-young-and.html
Then, understand that to most men, 90+% of a woman’s attractiveness in terms of SMV is… attractiveness. That is to say, physical beauty. When a man complements your appearance, he is really saying one of the nicest things to you that he can.
Finally…
I often feel angry
No. Just, no.
“In fact, I often feel angry when men compliment me on the basis of my physical appearance because I know it is not going to last…” Neither is your intelligence or your personality, so maybe you should also take umbrage at men complimenting you on those things. Intelligence fades around age 60 and senility is just around the corner for many. As for the personalities of women growing more sour as they age, see my other post in this comment section or re-read your own comment and think if saying something like that might not be a warning to men… Read more »
In fact, I often feel angry when men compliment me on the basis of my physical appearance
Don’t get angry with them, S. Give them your warmest smile and say hi. 😉
🙂 Stingray…
I’m going to have to start doing that before I get hit with this inevitable ugly stick (:P)…just have to gain the courage first.
Ladies, please, stop,..you’re both pretty.
HA! Have hamster . . . and it’s spinning!
Stingray makes men drool 😉
*Close sisterly nudge*
So do you 😉
Geisha, Stingray:
Both of you, pix or shutup. Hahahaha
Ruh?
S stands for sexy. 😉
Women’s failure to understand the reality of aging on the SMV is a result of the Left’s destruction of self-responsibility and long-range thinking skills. The Left has done this by the political means of public education and the quasi-takeover of the universities (largely by subsidized loans). Ideologically the Left has done this through pragmatism which is the dominant epistemological force in our culture. People in general, women in particular can no longer think long range and they are totally reality avoidant. Add to this an extended adolescence made possible by post 60s wealth and you have the modern women. But… Read more »
I saw an article yesterday I didn’t have time to read called something like “Romney calls out Obama for making people ashamed of success.” Sounded about right.
“And that rule comes in the form of such an overwhelming fear that contemporary society needed to be restructured to help avoid it.”
– How exactly was contemporary society changed to help avoid the wall? You mean the shaming language of manning up and infantile egos? I always assumed marriage was there to benefit older women but it seems they are the ones driving the divorces.
The thing about the wall is that women typically don’t see it until they’re face is flat-plastered against it; until the wall has left it’s mark. Women don’t get warnings and bright flashing signs from miles in advance– such as one might see on the roadway: *Freeway ends in two miles. Prepare to stop*. Rather, the wall hits suddenly and hard for two reasons: First, a woman’s looks and attractiveness tends to decline gradually. On a day-to-day basis, a woman just can’t see any change and the wall sneaks up on her. For example, a female friend of my wife’s… Read more »
I like this metaphore. Only trying to get into LTRs gives real feedback regarding LTR market value. But women often mistake sexual attraction for LTR attraction. WRONG!
One of your most insightful posts here, Rollo; your analysis is very easy to read and makes a lot of sense. The focus on how the feminine imperative deals with the psychological effect of The Wall is particularly though-provoking. Many useful comments as well.
Great commentary today on the “Wall” and how women try to abate their fear of its occurrence. I remember reading that post by Roosh and how the lightbulb in my brain went on when I realised that it wasn’t 30 year old me that changed regarding the older women I was seeing, rather it was nature telling me that the woman I was seeing was approaching her expiration date. I guess one problem about being aware of the “Wall” is that I’m always noticing crows feet, and curdled thighs and asses on a lot of women now. One only look… Read more »
You are going to get crows feet, curdled ass and thighs on a women even in their early twenties if they go out and pour toxins into their bodies. iI know girls with deep lines like you wouldn’t believe in their very early twenties..sitting outside in the blistering sun for hours, sipping on margaritas sans SPF does shit. Unfortunately.
There’s no escaping The Wall.
A perfect example is Lisa Robin Kelly, the blond from That 70’s Show. She had a pretty good run and longer than most women do, but eventually hit The Wall, and hit it pretty hard.
Only a house full of cats await the Spinsters. Find a husband now S, if that’s what you really want. Or don’t…
Lisa Robin Kelly clearly has substance dependency issues (and that distinct look of crystal meth abuse…crystal meth is notorious for ageing..). Not a fabulous example but I get the point that you are trying to make.
I’ve already decided that if I don’t find a husband by the age of 33 I’m becoming the town drunk.
LOL- I’ll be 34 in a smidge over a month. I will not be becoming the town drunk. I’m already looking forward to it because my birthday tradition is a Swedish massage and then dinner out with Mini Me. Steak, yum!
jesus christ–shes the exact same age as me! i look like a middle aged jew, but shes a fucking trainwreck already–no sun, no drinking, no smoking–no wrinkles, selah
One of your best posts. Very thoughtful, some original thinking, very tightly reasoned. The Wall is yet another reason why women’s primary emotion when navigating the world is fear.
I hear you on the fear aspect.
Once you understand the reasoning behind it all it is easier to not get upset and easier to accept the way things happen and motives of women.
The red pill didnt make me misogynistic as many like to claim it does, it made me more understanding and less likely to be perturbed when something doesn’t go my way.
Knowledge is power in itself. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
“One only look at Tom Cruise and his ex female co stars and see the devastating effects of age on women.”
Or even the most striking case – in 1988, Sally Field (42 years old) played Tom Hanks’ (32 years old) love interest in the movie Punchline. Just 6 years later in the movie Forrest Gump, Sally Field (48) plays his MOTHER. And of course Robin Wright (28) plays his love interest. Obviously, a lot of hollywood magic with Ms Field’s makeup, lighting, etc. But point remains on the short shelf life of women.
http://solomonreborn.wordpress.com/2011/03/25/proverb-28-women-can-age-beautifully/
To sum up Solomon’s insight:
Women fear the Wall, because they choose the strategy to be sexually popular in the eyes of every man (while not realising that it has a short time limit) and opt out of a lifetime of beauty in the eyes of the one man who loves them.
Sexy instead of beautiful.
The Wall is irrelevant for women with the grace, class and effort to become the latter, but it is the monster from the abyss for the former.
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/characteristics-of-Mother-1–england-and-wales/2010/stb-live-births-in-england-and-wales-by-characteristics-of-mother-2010.html
http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/characteristics-of-Mother-1–england-and-wales/2010/stb-live-births-in-england-and-wales-by-characteristics-of-mother-2010.html#tab-Timing-of-childbearing
From the UK (where I happen to hail from).
Rollo, if possible, you might consider switching to chronological order comments instead of the nested setup. Once you start getting to 40, 50, 60+ comments its a pain in the ass trying to follow a conversation in the nested format.
Good idea. Done.
Hey Rollo, I have a question I wanted to take onto the Manosphere and I thought I might present it to you. I’ve been watching something called King of the Dot rap battles the last two days. I’m not a huge rap fan and while I think there’s some element of cheesiness to the whole thing, I’m also amazed at what these guys do. They promote their leagues as a sport. They have weeks or months to prepare and study their opponent. They then proceed to publicly humiliate and ridicule each other. Dragging up the past, calling each other the… Read more »
@blackbird.young: I have no idea what any of these relationship terms mean to anybody. In some circles you can’t even call it a relationship unless it involves sex, others don’t consider it one unless its been trumpeted by facebook, and I’ve seen people refer to a three month relationship as a LTR. It is all very confusing 🙂
Alas, changing to chronological comments does not preserve the nested comments in old posts. Same thing happened to mine. It will be easier for the new posts, though, as MikeC said.
^ that was @deti
“Sexy instead of beautiful.
The Wall is irrelevant for women with the grace, class and effort to become the latter, but it is the monster from the abyss for the former.”
Music to my ears, Candide. Everything will work out for the best in the best of all possible worlds, right 😉
Ah, sorry Kate. I was wondering that as well.
Sorry Deti, I’m going to have to shush. No pics from this girl. Privacy is too important.
@ BlackCat and Days of Broken Arrows,
I know the anger is inappropriate and irrational. That’s why I don’t react to it..I get a compliment, I say “thank you” and I immediately change the topic of conversation.
I have accepted a date for next week so hopefully I won’t make a complete mess of it.
http://www.menweb.org/femexpos.htm
OT, but this article is so good I wanted to share it.
I recently spent a couple days on an Outward Bound sort of deal, and spent most of that time with an 18 year old Southern girl, just going into college, who was helping me run things. (I’m in my mid-40’s). I didn’t try to do the deed with her – maybe could have, maybe not – didn’t try because I’m married and a good boy at heart. But (thanks to some critical thinking picked up reading game blogs over the last year) I was able to evaluate her in terms of SMV. Quite honestly, I’d forgotten how utterly pleasant and… Read more »
Yeah, sorry all. I started the comment nesting thing back when I was only getting 20 or so comments per post and it made sense. It’ll be messy for a bit, but better in the long term.
@S: “This is why I strongly believe that women should invest in both their external and internal attractiveness from an early age.”
Internal attractiveness has to be taught from an early age. Who’s going to teach the majority of female children that in today’s society? Heck, they’re not even being taught external attractiveness if we are to judge by the amount of obesity present today.
Rollo,
May I make request? Set the pagination on your comments page to more than 50? 125-150 would be better, IMHO.
@ Random Angeleno,
Well, I know that if I have a daughter (if I can manage to before my ovaries shrivel up :P)..I will be teaching her to invest in both.
There are also few appropriate female role models for girls to look up to. Too much of this “Jersey Shore” or “The Only Way is Essex” crap poisoning their minds.
I married a 20 yo virgin in a packed Church. Three kids later and decades of good history means I ignore the wall when I look at her. Girl’s advise your daughters to finding a husband early and don’t waste your youth.
I had a talk about a month ago with my five year old about boys. She recently saw the boy she likes again. I asked, did you remember what I told you? She said, “Yes,” and then proceeded to repeat my instructions back to me verbatim: “You can only hold hands with one boy.” She listened!!! 🙂
The irony is that feminists considered finding a husband early as wasting your youth.
S:
Speaking of english girls, I´ve read reports of “Ladism” amongst young english women where they are aping the worst and most obnoxious aspects of young boys behavior. I´ve been to England a lot and I did see much more of this than in other countries. Ladism really is the height of unattractive on the inside for women.
S, what do you think of male nerds? Some of the best ones actually will value you primarily for traits other than beauty (so your value to them does not drop precipitously when you hit the physical Wall, as long as you protect your personality), and they often are marriage-minded. If you’re not willing to consider them, then yes, you must act quickly to avoid trouble, but if you are, you don’t have to be particularly alarmed. The Manosphere mocked the plain looks of Mark Zuckerberg’s new wife not long ago, but he’s obviously happier with her than he’d be… Read more »
Vox Day once observed that women perceive everything through their SMV. Though this might be an exaggeration, it does explain common adoption of cutesy-pie inflexion and mannerisms (akin to the eccentricities mentioned in an up-thread post by Days of Broken Arrows) by women in advanced old age. Having lost their sexual allure and being unable to credibly demand anything, they try to play on men’s sense of pity to get what they want.
Marrying young for a highly intelligent woman seems to make sense from my own experience. She has her Husband, kids and the freedom to then make her place out in the world. I will probably retire early. Kid’s are spoiled. Life is good.
@Wudang
What do you mean by the term aping? If you mean girls attempting to act like “one of the lads”..I have witnessed this. It’s unpleasant.
@DB
I like male nerds, always have (give me one of those Big Bang Theory guys any day.. ;)). Haha, no, I prefer to be able to relate to the people I date and as I’m a bit of a nerd myself..a male nerd would be right up my street. I’m going to start now regardless.
I recently read this from http://www.delanceyplace.com/index.php: ” […]new and growing body of research is revealing that there are marked and generally positive physiological changes that occur in a mother’s brain as a result of giving birth to a child. Experiments and observations on human mothers and laboratory rats provide the evidence[…].” Thought it was interesting despite being somewhat off topic. It also mentions how strongly a role the olfactory senses play in who women choose as mates. The craziest girls I’ve been with were always obsessed with my smell. Considering how that article points out that it literally makes a… Read more »
S: Yes that is what I mean. Sorry, my first language isn`t english.
@S: Okay, best of luck, and I’m sure you’ll turn out fine. The warnings given by Rollo and others are primarily directed at the more common sort of girl who’s naturally attracted to other types of guys she can’t expect to keep.
>>>Ladism really is the height of unattractive on the inside for women.
It’s pretty unnatractive on the outside too. Spend a night keeping a hot girl’s head & hair out of the toilet while she pukes up a half dozen margaritas and you’ll see what I mean. It’s distinct from helping out a sick friend because it’s self-inflicted and stupid, and probably worth a -3 on the SMV.
@DB, Thank you, I hope so, I have not a lot of experiences with relationships as I have only had the major one (and a short term one before that with a nerd 🙂 )..but I have never found myself overly compelled by the most lusted after. Others may argue with me and insist that I am biologically wired to feel so but really, I have always valued the underdog. I’m not ugly or anything (yet) but I have a thing for men who genuinely appear enthused by me in more ways than one. 😉 @Joe Yes, that is extremely… Read more »
A devoted Mom to your kids means she gets a wall pass. We would have had a dozen if the doctor didn’t warn after three. Everybody ages. But at a point, memories take over in a LLTR relationship.
@S: I know the anger is inappropriate and irrational. That’s why I don’t react to it..I get a compliment, I say “thank you” and I immediately change the topic of conversation. If you are feeling it, then you are showing it. Most people don’t have anywhere near the poker face they think they have, and I would be willing to bet that you have a number of ‘tells’ – little things like momentary pauses, flitting eye expressions, tone of voice, or the quick change of topic you mention above – that the other person will pick up on, given enough… Read more »
Rollo, One analogy for how the wall works that cuts through the social conventions / hamster wheels pretty quick – just show them the chart below: 20 years old = 6’2 25 years old = 6’0 30 years old = 5’10 35 years old = 5’8 40 years old = 5’6 45 years old = 5’4 50 years old = 5’2 55+ years old = midget For whatever age they are, ask them to imagine how attractive they and their girlfriends would find a guy of the corresponding height. That’s pretty much the same way we feel about their attractiveness… Read more »
An enlightening read. Here is a related story from China that is a concrete manifestation of the wall concept: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/07/19/chinas-unwanted-single-women-feel-the-pressure/
@NoQuarterForCatLadies
I’m not sure it depends on the girl. I wouldn’t go out with a 6ft 2inch man if he lacked compassion. I’ve been asked out by men who are 6ft 6inches and men who are 5ft 6inches…height for me is not an essential. Maybe that’s just me.
@milch,
This article is sad. 27 and they are “Unwanted”??..I’m sorry but the only “ugly” or old looking 27 year olds I’ve seen are the ones that have abused their bodies. In the late twenties a woman should still be looking relatively fresh. It is clearly a cultural thing.
An article I just came across: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2176281/Generation-refuse-grow-No-mortgage-No-marriage-No-children-No-career-plan-Like-30-somethings-Marianne-Power-admits-shes-.html
For every exception who maintains any attractiveness in her 30s there is at least one woman who lost most of her attractiveness in her teens. Was traumatic seeing The One lose all her beauty by 20, and I don’t mean by getting fat…
[…] Male – Value Added, The Wall, White Knight […]
[…] The Wall The same situation exists with Betas/AFCs you know. If you tell them the truth- they’ll say you […]
Jesus C, GeishaKate is f*cking retarded.
Approaching the wall, cannot deny it. Cannot explain what it means to female friends who have seriously turned to cats for love, continue digging through dick, or simply given up on themselves in exchange for potato chips and Huffington Post’s latest list “what women should know at 30” list. How can a woman explain it? Unravelling without a final resting place. Fans of Breaking Bad: Ever noticed Marie’s (Hank’s wife) inclination to steal (though she can afford whatever she desires) and lie to strangers about her children (though she is child-less). The show only hints at her emptiness, but her… Read more »
You forgot ‘Sexual Fluidity’
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/01/sexual-fluidit
[…] When women hit the wall – http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/the-wall/ […]
A female’s attractiveness doesn’t take a swan dive after 30. It tapers out slowly and often quite gracefully
[…] to shame men’s natural arousal/attraction cues being based on physicality. As I detailed in The Wall, women have a life long relationship with the impending decay of their only real agency over men […]
A woman’s attractiveness doesn’t take a swan dive after 30. It tapers out slowly and often quite gracefully
[…] market value) progression where she becomes cognizant of her SMV decline and impending date with The Wall. Generally this occurs in women’s late 20′s and possibly early 30′s but as a […]
[…] is probably why she is clinging on so desperately to Alvin. She knows her dating market value is declining QUICK, and she hopes to lock Alvin down as soon as possible. The thing about men is our market value […]
When do men “hit the wall”?
I have a question:
Can a post – wall female still be attractive?
[…] in the face of a hardwired hypergamy, while facing the constant, inevitable, progression towards the Wall. Cash in too early and face the nagging doubt she could’ve consolidated with a better […]
[…] moment in that, while she’s still attractive as she’s aged, she sees the Wall for what it is finally and requires some sense of catharsis, some degree of absolution, for having […]
“It’s very easy (and often fun) to compare pictures of girls we knew in high school with their current FaceBook profile shots at 40+ years old and get a laugh at how bad she hit the Wall.”
I just feel like that’s mean…the sort of hateful glee a lot of guys get in the manosphere about the wall is not nice.
When a woman hits 30, her vagina is going to turn dry and churn out dust
[…] their life. So, for instance, they don’t marry until (or get divorced) past the age of 30, despite that this is well after they’ve peaked in value. Or, more women go to college, but then they accrue tens of thousands in debt in a major that […]
[…] of social media and social conventions intended to alleviate the anxiety of the approaching Wall. However, the underlying psychology of that indignation is rooted in women being forced to […]
Wow. None of you poor idiot boys are getting laid, are you? What sad little dears.
[…] constant search for a man they consider “her equal”, and is the cause for many post-Wall women’s common lament of not being able to find the guy she thinks she […]
Bonding is how women beat the Wall. It is how they can keep a man even after they fade. Women no longer know how to bond. If they ever did. Dudly Do Right’s girl friend, Nell, knew how to do it. “My hero”. Sigh. But it does look stupid. But it does work.
[…] I should point out that a 3:1 pairing may also be the result of a 2:1 pairing that lasted into a man’s peak years and bumped him up a point, or more likely, the woman depreciated down a point or more as she hit the Wall. […]
[…] the most undignified, undesirable, and unappetizing proposition a man should never face. A post-Wall spinster used up after riding the cock carousel who will never respect her husband (for choosing […]
LOL, I love how having a career somehow accelerates ‘the wall’ oooh, don’t get a career little girls of the world! You will magically age faster!
“The age of Wall impact varies from woman to woman, but it generally converges for most women between the early 40s and 50. Some exceptional female specimens with a fortuitous suite of anti-aging genes can perhaps extend meager traces of their former physical glory well into their 50s, but these are exceedingly few in number. 99% of women you meet in daily life will have hit The Wall by their 50th birthday. An unfortunately larger minority of women will have been unlucky in beauty longevity and hit The Wall as young as their early 30s. Sadly, tragically, the first glimpses… Read more »
CH has much lower standards than I do.
[…] to acknowledge her decaying SMV and lessened capacity to compete in the SMP (i.e. the impending Wall) we conveniently see 27-30 year old women preferring and pairing with men who are, or are just, […]
[…] detailed explanations of The Wall from The Rational Male and from Chateau […]
[…] graph on top was taken from the site rationalmale.com and completely shows the relationship of the SMV and SMP indents in both sexes. If you can look […]
The “wall” is a bad term. Some women gradually decline from 30 onward, and some fight frantically to keep their physical shape and appearance up into their 40’s or even 50’s. The latter are rare, and I think they “fall off like a rock”, where most women have this slow but noticeable decay. I am in my mid forties – non-smoker, non-drinker, exercising daily… and I am watching pounds melt away and years melt off my face as the stress of being married to a demanding and needy woman is now gone. Even the added stress of being a part-time… Read more »
[…] slowed by offspring, habits such as diet and exercise, and overall pleasantness and femininity. Rollo Tomasi has a great article about The Wall that goes into further detail about these […]
It’s ironic that the picture you are using for this article, is of a grandmother with a family who is praying at the western wall. I can tell by her clothing and ethnicity, that she is probably a Jewish religious married woman (religious women cover their hair). Her wrinkles and face tell me, she’s a healthy older women, which means she’s probably had a good 6-8 children, since a woman who is willing to cover her hair in that manner probably doesn’t use contraceptives. And consequently she probably has grand kids. The wall itself is almost certainly the Western wall… Read more »
[…] slowed by offspring, habits such as diet and exercise, and overall pleasantness and femininity. Rollo Tomasi has a great article about The Wall that goes into further detail about these […]
[…] awareness a woman has of her sexual market value in relation to her eventual date with the Wall can no longer be subconsciously repressed and […]
[…] Artículo de Rollo Tomassi, The Rational Male […]
[…] was an effective convention then because it played on women’s fear of the Wall and built upon their, feminine-as-correct, moral / intellectual superiority of men, who could only […]
thanx Guys, very enlightening, and ,no i ‘m not buying the “privacy ” EXCUSE for the female who won’t post her picture,… how,…. CONVIENENT
[…] reach their mid 30s. Their ability to attract a quality mate, drops accordingly. This is called the Hitting the Wall in the manosphere.) Sensuality and beauty, natural or created, does temporarily put an […]