Here’s a new Case Study from a Rational Reader who wished to remain anonymous (because he lives in my home state among other reasons),…
So I recently started dating this woman I met online. For the last 2 months I would say we were “dating”
Some facts:
-She’s successful and she knows it. 25, bilingual, owns her own place, masters degree in engineering. You get the picture. A great catch.
-We have very similar backgrounds when it comes to family, values, etc. Both hispanic, raised overseas, strong family, etc.
-She’s cute although not hot. Looks, HB6, however I’m far more interested in her intellect and overall qualities than solely looks. I can actually admire her achievements and intellect.
-She’s conservative when approaching relationships. Takes it slow, claims she’s a virgin and she’s waiting for the right man. From any ol’ chick, I’d say bullshit. In this case though, her life is so well together and coherent throughout, that I’ll actually “buy it”
-Talked about past relationships and what happened, she claims it’s not easy to find guys that respect not going intimate. She also claims she’s picky and tends to put up a wall when meeting people.SO- two breaks in between when she went home (out of state) from a school break. Since I met her, she’s been away probably 3 weeks combined. Else, we have hung out at least once a week. During those breaks, very little communication, maybe a call here or there, some texting.
When we are together, it’s good. Great chemistry, etc. Last time (Saturday) I picked her up from the airport, we went to her place, instead of going out we cooked dinner, went to starbucks, etc. Good stuff, great time. I respect her intimacy “rules” so I don’t even push on that front. Frankly, I’ve gotten laid enough. lol
ANYWAY. here’s the bottom line. Communication in between dates is very very limited and this is where I’m concerned. I don’t know if in past relationships I’ve gotten used to too much communication (calling every day or texting, etc) or if in this particular case communication is lagging.
For example this week: Saturday airport pick up, did stuff at her place. Sunday silence. Monday she called me after work. Tuesday silence. Wednesday I called her in the morning to “kick off” the day, left voicemail but never heard back. Text her inviting her for an after work drink but she had a thank you dinner to attend. C&F wishing her a wonderful date, got a two liner back, the rest of the afternoon and evening silence.
SO the big question becomes: Is this a test? Low Interest Level? Am I expecting too much communication too early? Did I get used to too much communication too early in the past?
How often do YOU communicate with your successful prospect? How often do you find that you communicate with your adult ‘mature” women?
Oh and to top it off, her aunt and grandmother are arriving tomorrow, so the weekend is basically off limits. In other words if no hang out today, I probably won’t see her until next week.
If you haven’t already, you’re about to be LJBFed. Would you like to know why? Because every word you’ve used to describe this woman, every reason you’ve given for qualifying her as “unique” and every indication you’ve presented about yourself points to you approaching any future relationship from a submissive frame.
Predictably, the first response most guys will want to pile on about is to tell you she’s messed up or break down her problems for avoiding you, but honestly, the answer is starring back at you in the bathroom mirror. You’re ‘dating’ a woman who was raised as a man.
First, why are you meeting women online? You’re 25, meeting women face to face, approaching them, interacting in person should be your first course of action. I’m sure you’ll just come back with the “It’s just easier / I’m too busy” line of horse shit, but at 25 your scenario here about “meeting” her online is nothing but a Buffer for you. Also, what do you think constitutes dating? You’re certainly not banging this girl, so how many ‘dates’ have you had?
-She’s successful and she knows it. 25, bilingual, owns her own place, masters degree in engineering. You get the picture. A great catch.
If I heard a woman say, “wow, he’s got his own place and a masters degree in engineering, what a great catch” I’d think they were gold diggers to some degree, but it wouldn’t be unexpected. Any guy using the term “great catch” about a woman in the same context reeks of Beta. Women use this term to describe men, Betas use it to describe women who they think would make a good husband for them – and no, that wasn’t a typo. That you’d use the term as you did here only screams “I’m a chump who buys into buys into feminized equalitarianism in an effort to seem more attractive acceptable to them.”
-She’s cute although not hot. Looks, HB6, however I’m far more interested in her intellect and overall qualities than solely looks. I can actually admire her achievements and intellect.
Chumps love to rationalize their “choice” of women and their less than ideal looks by emphasizing that “it’s what’s on the inside that’s really attractive.” Admiring achievements and intellect are criteria for women’s attraction to men. Parroting this feminized talking point back sounds like you’re taking some high road, but the degree on her wall doesn’t make her look any better naked. This is a very common AFC identification rationalization. Here’s a secret: even brainy women will only want to fuck when they feel sexy, and she’s fully aware that your hammering away about how her mind turns you on wont make an HB6 an HB10. You’re not fucking her mind.
-She’s conservative when approaching relationships. Takes it slow, claims she’s a virgin and she’s waiting for the right man. From any ol’ chick, I’d say bullshit. In this case though, her life is so well together and coherent throughout, that I’ll actually “buy it”
-Talked about past relationships and what happened, she claims it’s not easy to find guys that respect not going intimate. She also claims she’s picky and tends to put up a wall when meeting people.
So lets break this down; she’s 25, masters degree in engineering, owns her own home, etc. Now, maybe an engineer can qualify this for me, but if I’m not mistaken a Master’s degree in engineering is at minimum a 6-8 year life investment, meaning she’d have to have began on it at 18. How many “relationships” do you really think this virgin has had in those 6-8 years while earning a masters degree in a very intense field like engineering? How many valuable learning experiences do you think she’s had with “relationships”? An HB6 girl with a master’s and a house at 25, yeah, she’s a virgin, but not because she’s so conservative, well grounded or picky. You’re making her necessity a virtue because you think it’ll lead you into some fantasy relationship with her.
I respect her intimacy “rules” so I don’t even push on that front. Frankly, I’ve gotten laid enough. lol
Exactly the rationale I’ve come to expect from AFCs reasoning why they aren’t getting laid. Genuine desire is non-negotiable. It happens or it doesn’t. Desire is a spontaneous, chemical arousal between people, not a pre-written contract. By placing preconditions on what will or will not qualify for a woman’s intimacy, she essentially rules out any chance for genuine, organic desire. You’ve basically by-passed the arousal stages and moved directly into comfortable familiarity – you’re already living out the role of being a good homemaker for her in your head. Comfort, rapport, familiarity, are all anti-seductive. Sexual tension is uncomfortable; it’s supposed to be in order to prompt desire.
A “friends first” policy is a shit test. This is basically a woman wondering if you understand women well enough to know that what she really wants is the contrary of what she’s saying, and if you’re Alpha enough to act upon that understanding with confidence anyway. You’re not which is why you’re explaining it away. Any 25 y.o. guy saying he’s gotten laid enough is selling himself something.
Well, oneitis is an issue, however i’m also seeing other women. It’s just that this one is a Ferrari and the others are Cadillacs! hehe obviously i’m going to try a bit harder.
So, the brainy, home-owning, HB6 virgin with intimacy issues is a Ferrari to you? Call me crazy, but I DON’T think you’ve gotten laid nearly enough.
My guess is she is the Ferrari to him because she is the one he hasn’t managed to bed.
Good observation. That affects one-itis a lot. Ironically it’s the same mechanism that makes a hot girl want the one guy who acts disinterested in her. Even though we’re guys we still respond the same way. It’s important to be self-aware enough to know when you’re falling into this trap.
Wow Rollo what an intense breakdown. So spot on.
That guy really is so submissive, talk about putting the girl on a pedestal. he’d have better luck if he was a complete jerk to her rather than being so respectful.
This is such an easy trap guys fall into, the ‘accomodative’ ‘respectful’ attitude omfg it’s so unsexy though.
I’m gonna punch myself in the head everytime i instinctively get into attitude with any woman
I can’t lie, my instant thought reading some facts was AFC
I have just stopped reading right at this point:
This guy is beta and will never make progress with this girl—he admires her the way a woman should admire her man.
Now I’m going to finish the rest of the post…
He’s not beta. He’s just another grown-up kid who’s been lied to. He has plenty of time and every ability to avoid the trap laid out for him. The best thing for him to hear now is, “Believe me, son, I’ve been exactly where you have been.” And give him credit: he at least knows where to go for real advice. Her, on the other hand? Twenty-five is damn near the cut-off age, where the wet clay starts hardening into misshapen and brittle pottery. He has lots of work to do, and fast, if he wants to try to salvage… Read more »
,..where the wet clay starts hardening into misshapen and brittle pottery.
Poetry.
This was painful to read. What you said about this guy being in a “submissive frame” is spot-on. And then you have this: “I can actually admire her achievements and intellect.” “From any ol’ chick, I’d say bullshit. In this case though, her life is so well together and coherent throughout, that I’ll actually “buy it” ” I respect her intimacy “rules” so I don’t even push on that front. Frankly, I’ve gotten laid enough. lol” The ego of this “man” (a term I have no choice but use loosely these days) is thoroughly wrapped up in playing by her… Read more »
God, I wish that were true,…
Pathetic – disgraceful.
He needs to talk to my Dad.
An even more straightforward view of this is simply: the woman is obviously not enamored by this guy. She’s not feeling the tingle. He’s not triggering any dopamine in her. And there’s no formula, no amount of analytics, for “correcting” such a situation. It’s just not a match and is time to move on.
These are extremely helpful to see. Thanks, Rollo.
perhaps he was thinking of the ferrari ff when he said that.
LOL. That made me laugh, but also made remember a few of my own dead-ends back in the day. The breakdown was perfect, good job.
Now the WORST possible scenario here is if he somehow manages to convince her to marry him. This is a great-catch you dont need to catch, bro.
Knew a lot of these types back in undergrad (I’m also an engineer). How many women there were depended on the type of engineering – computer engineering had none, manufacturing had none; aerospace had about one girl for every eight or ten guys, industrial engineering had about one girl per five guys. The girls either kept a bunch of engineer beta orbiters while slutting it up with business majors, or they were so awkward and innocent that they were about five years behind the curve in romantic experience – that included a few virgins I was aware of, probably at… Read more »
Chances on she being a virgin = 15%
But let’s say she is. She is also cold, distant, rigid and non communicative. Why? options are
1) she doesnt like him or
2) she does like him, and that’s the max response you can get from her
It’s simply a fools trap.
A BS and MS in Engineering in a total of 6 years is pretty standard. 5 years is even reasonable if you start college planning on a Masters, and plan your 3rd and 4th year classes to take stuff that will apply to both the BS and MS.
Personally, I doubt in her case that she wasn’t involved much from a lack of time. She created a lack of time to avoid having to deal with people. I see that one all the time.
That was me before game. I’ve come a long way. Before game I never would have done what I just pulled off earlier in the week. On a flight to Beijing from Hong Kong I sat next to an HB8–Asiantall, very well put together, looked like a model reading the FInancial Times. I opened indirectly: “Do you think these seats could be any smaller?” She laughed. Then I negged her: “You’re about the same height…” She started laughing again. I took that as an IOI and I ploughed on. Over the course of the 2.5 hour flight I escalated kino,… Read more »
Props dude. You did good. She’ll probably flake for reasons that are out of your control so don’t let that bother you. The important thing is how you kept your unapologetically sexual frame with her and plowed through the shit-tests. When a girl is attracted she subconsciously tries to throw herself out of state so she doesn’t have sex with every guy who turns her on (she has to weed out the betas). A shit-test is that. So you move in for a kiss and she wants to kiss you but her brain makes her say “we’re in a business… Read more »
I agree that this guy is trying to play by her rules. However, there are some of us (specifically, intelligent introverts) who actually would prefer an intelligent HB6 over an unintelligent HB8, all else being equal. Of course, in this case all else isn’t equal, and he should look elsewhere for intimacy (there are plenty of intelligent women without intimacy issues in that age range).
Perhaps, but if you could bang both, would you be fantasizing about the HB6 when you were banging the HB8?
Not in the slightest. However, I also wouldn’t be fantasizing about the 8 while banging the 6. I suspect that women are like wines or coffees: you only learn to distinguish the good from the exceptional with experience. HB6 is “good” to me, while HB8 is “near-model”. I can tell the difference, but it doesn’t really matter that much to me. Since my threshold for caring about intelligence is higher than my threshold for attractiveness, that ends up being the determining factor most of the time. Of course, since attractiveness correlates positively with intelligence, I can often get the best… Read more »
If those intelligent introverts would go out more they’d learn that 1) those intelligent HB6’s are just as slutty and likely to cheat on you as the ditzy club miniskirt girl dancing on a speaker and 2) there are 9s-10s who are intelligent as fuck so you’re selling yourself short if you don’t look for the whole package.
With a little wisdom and experience, most intelligent introverts will come to the conclusion that an HB7 say, with a +1SD IQ, is better than an HB6 with a +2SD IQ. Not to speak of the HB7.5+ with a +1SD IQ… Not a rarity.
Certainly intelligence correlates positively with attractiveness, and usually there is no tradeoff (the most attractive are often the most intelligent). However, it’s quite frustrating when the girl still looks bewildered after you’ve dumbed down your language for her.
Honestly, if your criteria are “faithful” and “attractive”, then you shouldn’t select for intelligent women. I suspect intelligence actually positively correlates with infidelity.
The West occupies an age where the majority of male competitors have been socially, economically, and chemically castrated. “Quality” males are increasingly hard to come by, even as females self-defeatingly attempt to remedy this by becoming more sexually available to the ever shrinking pool of said males.
Anytime you are about to interact with her, say these words to yourself.
YOU are the prize, not HER.
“you are not a beautiful and unique snowflake”. Ahh fight club, is there any male problem you don’t contain a relevant quote for? This is good old “I ACTUALLY like this one…” one-itis in action. Rationalization hamster running at full tilt on so many levels, from ignoring her faults to over-emphasizing her attributes to denying his own faults to lying to himself etc. it’s like an intricate machine of self-deceit. Great breakdown, necessarily harsh. Unfortunately we all know he won’t listen to you because he’s convinced his situation is unique and we just don’t understand. I mean, he’s been laid… Read more »
Hey rollo…excellent post…but do you think you can explain to me this communication thing works?
im in a similar situation…except i got hand with this chick…shes a hb7 and we fuck on the regular…she even told me that she wants to be exclusive with me…what i dont get is why doesnt she communicate with me more?…like she always want me to contact her first (i only do twice a week)…how can u explain this?…she says she doesnt want me to get tired of her…is this a shyt test?…thnx for ur help!
i fail to see what the problem is.
+1
That sounds ideal man. Getting the goods without all the annoying pointless female banter? Some people just don’t know when they have a good thing…
i know what ur sayin maine…i love this situation im in… the thing is that because of this “perfect situation” im becoming to attached to her.. the least thing i want is to fall for a oneitis(or maybe afraid of fallin in love with her)…as crazy as this sounds i want her to “bother ” me more so i cant get tired of her faster…i know i sound kinda fucked up but idk if you guys feel me…
I’ve got an up coming post that will address a similar situation.
good looking out bro
Well I really needed this post.Just got out of a similar position.A quality girl with quality education.Heh.
As for AFC rationalizations, this happened a few days ago.A 6’2 AFC rationalized his One-itis for a woman who is 5′ by uttering the following in my presence. “My height is so awkward, i should marry a short girl to spare my children this horror”
Heheh..
as a 6’4″ guy, that just made me puke in my mouth
Similar situation here too. Very little communication. She’s busy literally 7 days a week. She will rearrange her plans to see me but then she leaves early. Told me even before we started dating that she doesn’t go into relationships unless it’s “friends first”. I tried to bang her anyway, got as far as getting a couple of fingers in but one night last week I got pissed when she started talking about leaving 15 minutes after she got here and the end result was her telling me that she thinks that I am looking to take the relationship physical… Read more »
@ Good Luck Chuck
If she’s got herself bottled up that tight, your best bet is to just move on. Cost benefit analysis. As Rollo has said before, if you have to wait for it, or work that hard for it, it will never end up being worth the effort.
Move on, or at least start spinning more plates.
ha ha .it was an ansoff matrix i ran just for fun…
Result =diversification i.e spin some more plates
Are you telegraphing your frustration, Chuck? If you are, lock it down and replace it with complete indifference. Having a chick around you want to bang but won’t bang you isn’t good for the mind, body, or soul. True. So be desireless. Be excellent. And, especially in this case, be gone. If she’s not working hard to get your attention, no amount of attention from the man can ever bridge that gap. It could only further debase our sex with try-hard serenading and flower-giving. In fact, your efforts to close the distance can do nothing but dry up her panties.… Read more »
I know all of this.
Now it’s just a waiting game. When she left that night she made sure she said “So we’ll talk soon?” Sent her a brief text the next day but after that I decided to go no contact and let it play out. It will either happen or it won’t, but aside from making sure that I keep my distance I have no control over it.
Man you guys have no style
“You’re my one and only but you ain’t the only one”
fell for that one before, waited 2 months before i could get her into bed. Turns out when she was travelling had loads of ONS. I bought into the good girl act. I was being sized up as husband potential. You cant act like the local bike when on tour an come home to reform sluttery, Lesson learned onwards and upwards.
“fell for that one before, waited 2 months before i could get her into bed. Turns out when she was travelling had loads of ONS. I bought into the good girl act. I was being sized up as husband potential.” This is part of why often having money, looks, a good career, etc. can HINDER getting fast lays. Like the girl wanted to bang the shit out of you (not you specifically, I’m just referring to the general “you” here) when she thought you were just some random fling, but then you picked her up in your Ferrari and drove… Read more »
@ ya really “this one has long-term/husband/provider potential!” and she puts you on the slow-track to sex to try to buy herself time to get you to fall in love with her instead of pump ‘n dumping her.” Funnily enough that statment sums up exactly what happened, i did fall in love with her and its was’nt advantageous to do so, what transpires is the real her revealed herself a couple of months later, needy and controlling so i had to get out. Ive only commenced reading psychoanalysis books but its appears like i bought into the ideological false-self or… Read more »
Gah! I *was* that guy in ~1985 !
I will now go ice my balls and piss blood for a few hours..
OT, but nevertheless hilariously entertaining,..
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2012/05/07/relationshipstrategies/can-a-manwhore-ever-really-settle-down-even-if-he-wants-to/comment-page-3/#comments
Hey Dal, I’m honored,..
I don’t even have to post on her comment threads anymore to enjoy the irony. Heheheh,..she loves me.
Can you help me out with my question maine? I would appropriated
“Honest to God, there are male bloggers I wish I’d never heard of. From this moment on, I’ll never mention Rollo or Dalrock again, and I’ll delete any comment that does so. I’d rather be water boarded than continue this conversation.”
the GBFM translation of this:
i dont wanna be unplugged from the butthex matrix!
heartsie made a related post:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/05/10/the-silent-virginity/
Rollo – spot on again. I know because I’ve been this guy in my AFC days. I didn’t have the internet to articulate (if that’s the right word) my reasons for playing patient sniper to a female object of desire who obviously thought of me as a friend/AFC. But these thoughts disingenuously went through my head and probably out of my mouth (to other friends) at some point. I still believe that most AFCs know deep down that they are lying to themselves. There is something about the thought process that feels wrong to our reptilian core. It just takes… Read more »
Months spent trying to bang a girl? I know it’s a common beta thing, but still… I’m no Don Juan, but I learned very early on from my older brother (a very successful natural alpha) about what he termed “the three date pop or walk.” He actually called it that way back in the 80’s. It’s commonly preached PUA stuff now, but it was the first I’d ever heard of such a thing. “Little Bro, if I haven’t bagged her by date three she ain’t worth my time.” I was never a white-knighter, but this seemed extreme to me. What… Read more »
“What do you do if a girl hasn’t put out by the third date?”
“I don’t know. It’s never come up.”
“I hate you.”
Rollo
Are you suggesting that STEM women are incapable of having a strong emotional sexual relationship with men?
No.
Assuming there’s no embellishment here, I’m saying this girl has had far too much on her plate (i.e. a masters in engineering, personal business and home ownership) all before age 25 to have had relationship experience enough to lay claim to the “Rules” she’s filibustering this guy with. All of which points to a very low IL for him.
I’d add two things:
1. Her life priorities so far are not that of a girl looking for a meaningful relationship leading to marriage. Rather, she’s a poster girl for feminism.
2. She was clearly not raised to be a wife, so you can’t treat her like one (or a potential).
1+2 means she’s a casual hookup at best. On top of that, since she has her “rules” plus being a virgin, she’s an absolute waste of time.
I was this guy once. The girl was hot though, a slim red-head 8 (the kind every guy would check out when she enters the room) and in her last years of a med degree. Yeah I went beta and oneitis big time, appreciating her intellect, her “traditional and religious” rules blah blah blah, thinking she was special and should be treated differently to other girls. After a couple of months of “dating”, as Rollo would predict, I got LJBFed and had to watch her throw herself at a well-known player afterwards, rules be damned. Lesson learned: no woman is… Read more »
Simple. Once a girl has looked down (from her pedestal), it’s impossible to get her to look up.
He respects her intimacy issues and does not go for the lay = BETA to the core. Every girl wants to be lusted and fucked by a worthy man.He should take every moment possible to make the girl tingle and just bed her or leave her to his orbit for possible later bang.
Brutal, Rollo is the Goergy Zhukov of the manosphere.
Brutal, but necessary. This guy needs to step back and ask himself, what is he getting from these interactions, besides frustrated.
Rollo is a man of limited intelligence, and can not possibly understand how intelligent women trigger attraction. He also has no experience with self-controlled women. These are a foreign species to him.
That, and unicorns.
plus being a virgin, she’s an absolute waste of time.
rollo, are you suggesting that stay away from virgin women, in this world of AIDS and hookups isn’t it safer to date women who are virgin. What is it that I am missing here?
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/pseudo-virginity/
Wow. You just wrote an article about my last relationship. The LJBF call was spot on from my experience. Hopefully this guy breaks her off soon. I am still too much of an AFC to feel contempt for this guy, but I really do pity him and his situation. This is something I would not wish on my enemies…well, maybe on them.
Just to shatter the illusion of The Great Catch a little bit more: I doubt she’s all that intelligent even with her Master in Engineering, with universities being credential mills and so biased towards women. I happen to be working with Science PhDs atm. Been exchanging emails with one of the women to help her out with her project. I was showing her how to do it via some of the very basic tools that undergrads in Year 1 are taught and use frequently. After several bullshit back and forth, I realise that she has no idea how to use… Read more »
i got my bs (heh) in physics.
a senior is giving a presentation on some electricity based experiment. she makes a couple questionable mistakes. professor with shit eating grin on his face:
“what’s a volt?”
she had no idea. she graduated and got a government job.
america
Oh dear. Geraldine Depardieu seeks Green Card. Poor guy. Candide:”Dumb chicks with heavy credentials like her ..” aren’t so dim that they don’t eventually twig that the tickets will go a lot further in the land of the free. As well as being harder to assess critically. It may be banal for me to start harping on about the EU’s grotesque ‘youth’ (anyone under about 30, it seems to me) unemployment rates, but what the hey. All that even higher tech. qualifications do is price (and age) you out of the credential-inflated, desperate-former-‘communist’-flooded jobs market. And France in particular is… Read more »
Ahahahhaa that probably made no sense whatsoever.
I got mixed up with another long whinge somewhere else, about some geezer stuck on a fit French bird, he was breathless with barking up her ‘quality’ and ‘sophistication’, but was unaccountably fretting about her, pretending not to worry about her (allegedy, former,) penchant for 3somes, and metric tonnes of shoes or something.
Although in my defence, they did sound like they were written by the same guy, m’lud.
Eurotrash? “What f.u.cker said that?” (/withnail)
Admiring a woman for her accomplishments instead of her ass? Where did this come from? I’ve had my own programming to undo in the past but never in my life have I given more than a cursory nod toward a woman’s achievements or her intelligence. When women have managed to convince men to revise their attraction priorities to suit the feminine agenda it shows how fucked up things really are. Of course nothing will ever change our base arousal instincts but that doesn’t matter because a tiny little change in a man’s thought process is enough to make a man… Read more »
The mistake here is to think that they are dating because he says they are dating. He is not dating her. If he was she would introduce him to her relatives. There are only two reasons she would not introduce him to her relatives; 1) He’s a bad boy they would not approve of, 2) They are not dating.
Aside from a few parts, this is eerily similar to a friend of mine. He is Hispanic, was raised overseas and has been dating a ‘born again virgin’ for the past year. They are slated to get married. He’s a good guy, but obviously has second thought about all of this but fells compelled to marry due to pressure from his family. His gf is maybe a 3 Also as someone who has a masters in engineering, you are looking at 4 years in undergraduate, and 2 years in graduate so about 5-6 years. I was 25 when I was… Read more »
lol hes gay and shes a flake
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