50 Shades of Twilight

Since 50 Shades of Grey is essentially the same plot formula as Twilight, feel free to insert the relevant protagonists’ names for Bella and Edward here.

I’ve had a lot of PMs asking me for some input regarding the runaway popularity of the B-Grade fan porn that is 50 Shade of Grey. Vox had a brief spot about it in relation to how men can’t win for losing in girl-world. Aunt Giggles had an interesting run down of its popularity, but predictably eels her way around the operative point of how semi-violent romance porn affirms the uglier truths of Game and hypergamy – not to mention avoiding the sticky aspect of ‘committed’ women fantasizing about it.

I honestly haven’t given the book too much headspace since it only reaffirms what the manosphere has been professing for over a decade now: in spite of all protestations of the opposite, women get off on dominance. Big shock, I know. It’s ironic that The Chateau should need to cite psych study upon psych study, ad infinitum for 6 years to reinforce a dynamic that women will now gleefully admit to only after a cheap, fanfiction sub-porn hack calls them blushingly out to the carpet on it.

If this book represents any significant turning point it will be its role in provably, viscerally, forcing women to acknowledge their own bullshit. I can hardly wait for the girl-world collective mental twistings in the wind – the desperate whir of millions of rationalization hamsters grasping for a plausible deniability or a freshly minted social convention (male shaming for bringing women to men’s porn mentality) that will excuse them from the guilt of an inconvenient truth. Perhaps the NAWALT trope, that one’s always the Swiss army knife for the feminine cause. Really anything that will put the Hypergamy Genie back in the bottle and keep the questioning Betas from getting too curious about feminine nature will do.

In the Bitter Taste of the Red Pill comments, esteemed colleague Dalrock had a timely and profound post that fits this porn-dominance formula perfectly:

These women don’t just want to build a better beta, they want to tame the alpha. In fact, I think the former is just another way they are trying to approach the latter. They want to take an inherrently unsafe activity and make it safe. They want to submit to a man without having to submit; they want a man who can tame their feral self. They want him to trip their danger signals. Even better if he is a stranger from a strange land.

They wan’t this all to happen without giving up their freedom; they want to play this out in the context of serial monogamy, so they can feel loved while also claiming their promiscuity is moral. They want to lose controll to a string of strangers who have all of the hallmarks of very dangerous men, and they want a promise that this will always end well.

They want to know that this will be safe, without it losing the excitement of it feeling unsafe. They are telling men to build a sort of serial monogamy amusement park where they can ride the roller coaster and experience the fear of falling or crashing, while knowing that just behind the scenes grown ups are actually in charge and are responsible for them safely feeling unsafe.

One more thing. As I mentioned above they don’t want to be hemmed in. So instead of building an actuall amusement park, they want roller coasters to spring up randomly in the same exact circumstances where the real danger they mimik would appear. They want to be driving their car on the freeway one instant, and the next experience the fear of careening out of controll the next. They want to impulsively jump off the edge of the Grand Canyon and have a parachute appear and deploy at the last minute. And all they ask is your guarantee that all of this will be safe.

Behold, the female porn dynamic perfected. Danger without danger, bad boy with a heart of gold, a guy who wont cheat, but could cheat,..

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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Stingray
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However, if it goes against her will,

What she says her will is and what her body and subconscious are telling her her will is are two polar opposites. In short, no, she does not know her own will.

YOHAMI
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The natural order doesnt need to be enforced. The unnatural does.

Ted D
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Flahute – “Ted, please stop worrying about being fair. Who told you life is (or should be) fair? Equalists, socialists? Brainwash, hogwash.” Again, if everyone thinks and acts this way, life would be chaos. Every man for himself only works in small tribal societies where might actually makes right. In the Western world, what is LEGAL makes right, and the bottom line is the law is NOT on men’s side. How exactly do you propose a change of society not backed by the force of law? Of course life isn’t fair, and equality is an illusion. But, the law clearly… Read more »

Stingray
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You don’t talk about it with her, Ted. You simply become the leader and see how she reacts to it. You are not becoming her drill instructor. You are becoming the head of your house. That doesn’t mean you lay down orders. You stand firm (and fair, since that seems to be your way). These are two different things. That’s not to say that you will never give out orders, but that should be a last resort if that is how you choose to run your home.

YOHAMI
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Ted, if you ask her “may I be your leader?” then you’re asking for permission – asking for approval – she’s your leader. It might look like a conundrum but the key is to understand: she’s not getting the logical sense of your question, but the emotional content of it. Her response will be towards your emotional question, you asking her to follow her, she’s going to respond “NO” So instead of asking, do it. Try both approaches if this crap disturbs you. First be submissive and see how she responds. Then be more dominant and see how she responds.… Read more »

Ted D
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“Ted, brother, it most emphatically is not her job. It is your responsibility. ” The law says otherwise. Show me were I am legally bound to take on this task, and I’ll be all over it. And the real rub is: she may even allow me to take that responsibility, but if I fail and/or go against her wishes, she has plenty of legal ways to put and end to it and fast. Most of them wouldn’t end favorably for me. This isn’t about whether or not I believe it is natural for the man to lead or not, it… Read more »

YOHAMI
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Ted, BTW, if you walk with a verbal, or non verbal attitude of “I make the rules here and if you’re going to be around me, it’s under my rules”, pussy doesnt run away from you scared, it doesnt go from the hills… instead it floods you, it comes running towards you, from the hills and beyond. Communication, for girls, is not a way to express what they really want and are, it’s not about honesty. Communication, for girls, is a way to get what they want. It’s a poker hand. You cant never take what a woman says at… Read more »

YOHAMI
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*it doesnt run to the hills… it comes running from the hills

Stingray
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Are you in danger of a civil union here Ted? You keep talking law and I thought she was your GF?

Also, if she is happy being your “first mate” why would she bring legal recourse? She is more likely to be unhappy because you let her be the “captain” and you become the “first mate”. The whole Eat. Pray, Love thing. How many men that this happened to do you think were dominate in their relationships?

Ted D
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“These are two different things. That’s not to say that you will never give out orders, but that should be a last resort if that is how you choose to run your home.” And that may be my real issue. I don’t “lead” in a passive manner. At work when I am in charge of a project, I push things to go the way I see it, and don’t leave much up to chance. Surely I let people do their jobs as best they see fit, as long as it doesn’t go against the plan. I also hate to micromanage,… Read more »

deti
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deti
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I hear you, Ted. All I can say is this: It’s submission, not subjugation. She must agree to be ruled. She must submit voluntarily. I take that responsibility on my shoulders, but if she tries to take it back, it’s an untenable power struggle. If I fail or she doesn’t like it, she surely can take matters into her own hands. And if she does decide to do so, she’s on her own. I know about all the horror stories of imputed income, wage slavery, punitive alimony, child support abuse, etc. But she’ll be on her own. She won’t want… Read more »

Stingray
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If you decide to lead you are not going to be able to micromanage. That is not being a rock. It’s a bulldozer. Try some things out and see how they work.

FYI: Pickard makes women tingle HARD.

Ted D
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We live together and have for several years. I found my way to the ‘sphere about 8 months into our relationship, give or take a few. We both have children living with us. We aren’t married, but obviously we are entangled all the same. And that is the catch 22 I find myself in mentally. I KNOW she won’t be happy as the captain, my first marriage and divorce proved that to me. But, I also can’t really force her to follow my lead either. And before we get too far down this rabbit whole, I’m not implying I am… Read more »

Ted D
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That’s about how I see it… I wish I’d found the ‘sphere before I started this relationship. I would have done things VERY differently. Not saying things are bad, but I would have approached the relationship differently, and would have been up front about some of my expectations. I would have made it clear that I intend to do things my way, and if she wasn’t willing to follow that then we had no future. Hell, when we got together I still wasn’t thinking about making sure I got anything I wanted at all, let alone clearly defined roles in… Read more »

mikec74
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Ted, Honestly, you are just flat out confused about what it means to be a leader in a relationship. This is clear because you want to keep equating it with being an operational manager/micromanager in the workplace, and the two concepts are very different. I am genuinely curious what your goals are now. You’ve been around these parts long enough for various thoughts/ideas to coalesce, but you seem to still be fighting some inner battle especially as it relates to the concept of male leadership. As always, Yohami is spot on, so go reread his comments and simply ponder them.… Read more »

mikec74
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Great stuff as always Yohami. BTW, if you walk with a verbal, or non verbal attitude of “I make the rules here and if you’re going to be around me, it’s under my rules”, pussy doesnt run away from you scared, it doesnt go from the hills… instead it floods you, it comes running towards you, from the hills and beyond. Saturday night, my GF and I watched In Time with Justin Timberlake. I actually thought it was a really good movie, especially in terms of being an allegory indictng our modern winner take all style capitalism. Anyways, we got… Read more »

Stingray
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Here we go. Now it makes more sense to me. I understood what you were saying before but something was missing. It was this But, I also can’t really force her to follow my lead either. No one wants you to force her to do anything, least of all her. A woman wants to follow a dominate man. Sure, there will be times that you make a decision that goes against what she wants. She may not want that one particular thing to happen but she will respect the “captain”. She will be happy with the overall situation. Leading with… Read more »

Ted D
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MikeC – “This is clear because you want to keep equating it with being an operational manager/micromanager in the workplace, and the two concepts are very different.” Nice to see you out and about. Yep, this is indeed my sticking point. I had no model to follow growing up in regards to what a “leader” in a relationship should look like, and I am still trying to work it all out in my head. I am really trying to conceptualize what leading a relationship is about, because I don’t work well using “try and see” methods. I follow plans, procedures,… Read more »

YOHAMI
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Yes!

Rollo Tomassi
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Ted, read Dave from Hawaii’s transition in his relationship here:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/

Was he being immoral in what amounted to his saving his marriage by his methods?

Paul Murray
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All of this stuff is making the mistake that thaey are motivated to acheive some end goal: “owning the wolf”, or “building a better beta”. They are not goal-directed in that way: all they care about is how they are feeling *right now*.

Ted D
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StingRay – “FYI: Pickard makes women tingle HARD.”

LOL. I am a fan of Kirk. He was an asshole for sure, but he did shit HIS way. Pickard strikes me as more politician than a warship captain. In fact, the entire Next Gen franchise seems very “Utopian” and socialist to me. Everyone wants to play nice, even when under attack.

YOHAMI
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“Want” is different than “goal oriented”. Obviously what they want is to feel good, where “good” can be many things, that are often contradictory.

Paul Murray
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“And incidental to that is a general loss of attraction for the guy if she gets power.”

It’s not incidental. Having gotten one, you want another one. Why have one manginia financing your life, when you can have two?

Ted D
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Rollo – “Was he being immoral in what amounted to his saving his marriage by his methods?” No. Perhaps he was/is being a bit manipulative, but since he has his relationship’s best interests at heart I would say it is moral. But my issue isn’t really a moral one, or at least morality is only a small part. *I* know I would approach it with the relationship’s best interests in mind, but what *I* think is best for the relationship and what she thinks is best might be very different. In addition, most of those examples, while demonstrating a change… Read more »

Ted D
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Ok this isn’t at all my idea of “leading”, which is the root of the issue. “Sure, there will be times that you make a decision that goes against what she wants. She may not want that one particular thing to happen but she will respect the “captain”. She will be happy with the overall situation.” And I can live with this. I don’t expect to make her happy all the time, but the part *I* was missing is that she would still be happy over all even if some individual decisions don’t go her way. I have a hard… Read more »

Ted D
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“In my view, part of being a leader simply is setting the right frame, and being firm about what is acceptable and not acceptable.” I’ve never considered setting boundaries and standing my ground a ‘leadership’ kinda thing. Responsible adults also shouldn’t make a habit of pushing boundaries either, but I certainly set boundaries for my children as part of my leadership role with them. I simply have a difficult time applying the same principles to a relationship with another adult. It appears I’m mistaken in believing that she should respect my boundaries simply because we are adults, which is why… Read more »

Stingray
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is I shouldn’t expect my SO to act like a rational adult despite the fact that legally she is labelled one.

YES!!!!

Stingray
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I’m also guessing that this varies from woman to woman, meaning that some prefer a more heavy-handed leadership approach while others prefer at least the image of an equal partnership? And, that being the case, for someone like me that doesn’t want to be heavy-handed, a woman that requires less actual leadership would be the best fit? and, the real work in all of this is trying differing amounts of “leadership” to see where the sweet spot is? Yes, yes, and yes. I don’t think many women want to be lead by an iron fist. We do want responsibilities that… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
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Ted, The simple fact that you are tenative about the law means that you are about 10x more likely to be a victim of it. I really don’t get it. We aren’t even talking about sexual advances here, we are talking about putting yourself in a position of leadership. How exactly are you going to get arrested for taking on a leadership role? I think you are WAAAAY to hung up on the idea this equalism bullshit and you bring up the law is merely an excuse to not move past it. I know, it has been drilled into ALL… Read more »

Ted D
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OK, so it’s back to dealing with irrational people, which is where my bone of contention is. I’m expected to handle my own emotional crap and in the very least contain hers. What does she do in return? Or, how about we go about it this way. If she were single and on her own, how would she deal with her emotional shit? Because I don’t understand how me being in the picture removes her responsibility to act like a rational adult. I kinda expect my mate to come to the table as pretty much a self-sufficient rational adult. I’m… Read more »

Ted D
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Ahhhh OK. To me, what you just described is *my* idea of an egalitarian relationship. You each do what you are best at and split the rest. The only point I see that indicates a leadership role is your husband is the “tie breaker” if you are split in a decision.

That is a far cry to me from a more formalized leadership role, which probably works for some, but I would guess not many.

Stingray
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If she were single and on her own, how would she deal with her emotional shit? She would buy a cat. See, to me if I’m truly expected to handle her stuff and mine, then she should be pulling more of something else off my plate. Absolutely she should. With out a single doubt. This is why women stayed home and men worked. The woman would take care of the home and the man would provide it. She should be taking care of you. They way women are good at. We excel at the details hence the house and the… Read more »

YOHAMI
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Ted, “If she were single and on her own, how would she deal with her emotional shit?” She would have girlfriends + beta orbiters to dump her emotional garbage into. “I don’t understand how me being in the picture removes her responsibility to act like a rational adult.” When has she behaved like a rational adult? “This seems a lot like “let’s have an equal relationship as long as we agree, and when we don’t I will act like a brat until I get my way”” Yes, you’re describing a woman and her defacto set of rules. Now, are you… Read more »

Ted D
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Rollo/everyone – thanks for the input. I know I’m a pain in the ass with this, but I’ve been agonizing over this particular point for months as MikeC pointed out. This thread has been more helpful than the last 6 months elsewhere. I don’t have all the answers I’m looking for, but at least I feel like you all are being honest with me without added bullshit to pretty it up.

Rollo Tomassi
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Ted D
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Yohami- well holy shit man. That made totally perfect sense. If I want to be in a relationship with a responsible adult, I have to make her BE one. For shit’s sake that is so simple, and yet massively complicated of you buy into the idea that she should already be one herself. It shouldn’t be my responsibility to do so, but I guess my options are deal with bad attitude or step up. I can’t help but notice that this is at least a little demeaning though. We are all saying that a woman cannot be held responsible for… Read more »

Stingray
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It wasn’t demeaning until feminist made it so. And the laws here in the States were pretty well on track with this as well until women coerced men into changing them.

Stingray
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Darn it. Didn’t close the html. Let me try again.

I can’t help but notice that this is at least a little demeaning though. We are all saying that a woman cannot be held responsible for her own emotions.

It wasn’t demeaning until feminist made it so. Also, the laws here in the States were pretty well on track with this as well until women coerced men into changing them.

Ted D
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So in short: I need to stop being worried about being a chauvinist and misogynist? And despite the fact that my SO may give lip service to the “equality” shtick she will not only accept my leadership but actually wants me to take it IN SPITE of what she says? The entire setup is a giant shit test?… I really hate interpersonal drama. At least with men you know where you stand. All this cloak and dagger shit just pisses me off. Is it really just too much to ask for adults to act responsibly and with a rational attitude?… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
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Yohami nailed it. You have a flawed view of attraction, Ted. Women are happiest when they are being assimilated into the world of a man they are attracted to. You are approaching this from the angle of “what does she want” which creates the opposite effect. This doesn’t mean that her desires go out the window, it just means that she cares more about what YOU care about when she is attracted to you, and the fact that you pull her into your world rather than catering to her desires amplifies this attraction. Stop listening to women when they say… Read more »

Stingray
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At least with men you know where you stand. All this cloak and dagger shit just pisses me off. Is it really just too much to ask for adults to act responsibly and with a rational attitude? Ted, you’re forgetting, all of this is unconscious on the part of the women. Most women don’t have a clue about any of this. There is no giant secret conspiracy that they pull us into as children. We are just oblivious to it. Basically, it is like a shit test. We are unconscious to those as well. Heh, we think we are acting… Read more »

Stingray
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Very nicely said.

Rollo Tomassi
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Ted, you’ve been pretty upfront so let me give you a personal example: In 2005 the company I work for asked if I wanted to relocate to Orlando. That day I essentially decided to uproot my family from Nevada and leave my friends, our families and everything we knew behind. The day I decided this I sat Mrs. Tomassi down at our usual sushi place and said, “we’re moving to Florida in 4 months.” What do you suppose she said to that? “What about my career here? What about my Mom and your Mom, Dad, Brother? What about my friends?… Read more »

Ted D
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LOL this is where we’ve been circling the wagons lately. We do both work, so I need to give more thought into how we break out responsibilities. What would you think is an equal setup if both people work full-time jobs? Because this may be the sticking point. I feel like her idea of an equal relationship is to split all household chores evenly. that being said, I have to handle the finances if I hope to have anything paid on time. And, I feel like I take more than half of the relationship responsibility already, before this conversation. We… Read more »

Ted D
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“You can be the Dom or the Sub, just know that you’ll only be the Sub for as long as it takes her to find a Dom to drive the car.” No matter how confused and frustrated I may be with all this, I know the above statement is true. I’ve lived it and my divorce proved it to be true. My goal is to figure out exactly what it takes to be the driver, because I honestly don’t know how, and everything I see that I’m supposed to be doing flies completely in the face of “common wisdom”. And… Read more »

Ted D
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“Stop listening to women when they say that they want to be equal, because they absolutely do NOT want to be equal. Your woman is simply parroting the feminist script.” That sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen… At least according to the seemingly endless “equality” type classes I’ve endured as part of the corporate world for almost two decades. It makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall. So I’m supposed to continue participating in “polite” society while knowing that all this equality stuff is BS, and I can never call women out on it without… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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You’re only living a lie when you make it a lie. If you feel like you’re playing a role or reading a script, you haven’t internalized Game yet.

https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/11/21/kill-the-beta-2/

Good Luck Chuck
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It makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall. So I’m supposed to continue participating in “polite” society while knowing that all this equality stuff is BS, and I can never call women out on it without fear of legal repercussion? I have to treat my SO one way despite her saying she wants to be treated another, and I can never expect her to admit it? Yea, except for the legal repercussions part. Where is this coming from? You don’t call women out on it because they aren’t even aware of it most of the time… Read more »

AS1
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And this is why Rollo’s Blog is one of the best in the Manosphere; heck the whole internet. It has help me have a deeper understanding of the “philosophies” & “why” Game works that no other blog has come close to explaining. Keep up the good work RT. You are definitely an inspiration to your fellow man. *Claps*

Ted D
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Scrap the legal talk. My issue was that there is no way to force a woman to accept leadership, which is still true. StingRay implied that a woman will naturally want to follow, and if not I guess the answer is to move on to another that will. I already placed my bets so to speak, so I need to make the best of the hand I currently hold.

YOHAMI
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Ted,

“My issue was that there is no way to force a woman to accept leadership”

If it’s forced it’s not leadership. But moreso, women submit to it when its “natural”.

“a woman will naturally want to follow, and if not I guess the answer is to move on to another that will.”

Yes, but first become the version of you that is naturally dominant. Which is more about letting go your self constraints and learning to accept and assert yourself, than it is about forcing anything on anybody.

Force means resistance. Wrong setup.

deti
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Ted:

I can’t force my wife to stay with me. I can, however, force her to live with the consequences of her decisions.

If she stays with me, she is expected to accept the good and bad that goes with it.

If she leaves, I can force her to accept the consequences of that. If she leaves, her life will be very different from how it is now, and it won’t be all good.

Rollo Tomassi
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Fold.

Good Luck Chuck
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Trust me, you don’t want a relationship with a girl who doesn’t want you to take the lead.

Ted D
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Rollo – “Fold.” I’ve been in a much worse place, been through divorce, and survived. I can do this, I just need to get my head in the right place, which is to say get over feeling like I’m being manipulative, sneaky, and deceiving. If I don’t do it now, I may never get it done, and I’ll find myself in the same place with another woman. I have to get this shit together. Folding would just be throwing in the towel again. GLC – That isn’t my problem so much as just trying to work out the specifics of… Read more »

King A (Matthew King)
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Ted D wrote: The law says otherwise. Show me were I am legally bound to take on this task, and I’ll be all over it. And the real rub is: she may even allow me to take that responsibility, but if I fail and/or go against her wishes, she has plenty of legal ways to put and end to it and fast. Most of them wouldn’t end favorably for me. This is the bleating of a sheep who is afraid to live. You can live to avoid conflict with the law, or you can live freely until the law reins… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
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And no matter how I might try to explain the conversation we are having here, she will not see things from my perspective at all.

You don’t explain anything. You just do it. If you try to reason with a woman on something like this you will be met with contempt or even hostility. As stingray mentioned they aren’t even aware of what is going on. They are completely immersed in the girl-world to the point where you absolutely have to use actions to push those hindbrain buttons.

Good Luck Chuck
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My SO has already demonstrated that she is willing to accept leadership from me, I’m just uncomfortable with the “job”

Unfortunately it is in fact a “job”, and you can easily be fired without notice, as you learned from your previous marriage. How bad do you want to keep your job this time around? That’s what it all boils down to.

King A (Matthew King)
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Ted D needs to become familiar with Athol Kay’s Captain/First Officer concept. No boat can be run by a committee. That insane fem-democratic concept has wrecked our culture for a hundred years. And to see Ted D internalize and thereby unconsciously and indirectly propagate that fallacy is tragic. Proper leadership does not infantalize its charges. It dignifies them through delegation and division of labor. The lazy thinkers who originated and insisted upon feminism thought they could make natural followers — 75% of men and 99% of women — into leaders just by calling them so, when all this while we… Read more »

Wudang
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Stingray: “Even the most well grounded and mature woman will still look to a man for direction and emotional security. A man she can depend on to give her this is like air.” I was complaining about western women to a man that discovered the red pill by himself and is very wise with regards to anything related to gender relations and he said that one of the reasons the women are so hardened and bitchy and unfeminine is that there are so few men of the sort Stingray talks about in their lives that they are not just not… Read more »

Wudang
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Ted D: “If I was into BDSM, I would need my submissive’s consent before proceeding to “dominate” her, correct? If I’m going to socially “dominate” her (which is to say be “king of my castle” the way described here) should I not at least get some form of approval from her first? And, I would suspect if I asked the question, I would get a resounding NO (since I know my SO claims to want an egalitarian relationship) which would then mean that my taking the lead goes directly against her stated will, regardless of if it is the right… Read more »

Wudang
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Ted, ON some level women experience you making (fairly good) decisions for her as love and as loving the true her because it shows that your attention is directed towards her to such and extent that you care to investigate what she really needs and by actually seeing something she really needs and deciding this for her you are showing that you know her and love her. Having to ask means you don`t pay enough attention and haven`t seen who she really is and so can not really love her because you don`t know her.

Ted D
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Sexually I’m good. I would be lying if I didn’t admit that at first I was more than apprehensive about dominating in the bedroom, but her enthusiastic support got me past that pretty quickly. She takes direction well. The social stuff is just more deeply seeded in my head, coupled with the fact that I’m really just not very socially smart. I can appear to be socially adept, but it’s mostly me emulating expected behaviors. I don’t like “people” for the most part, and never put any effort into becoming a “people person”. I’ve had a talk or two early… Read more »

YOHAMI
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“This is the kind of stuff that starts harassment complaints. ”

Like, what? what exactly do you picture yourself saying or doing that will get you a complaint?

OffTheCuff
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Ted: “Am I really over thinking this?”

I think so. You’re trying to reason out a bunch of stuff that doesn’t really need to be reasoned out, where you should be accepting and testing these principles, and then seeing where they lead in your own life. You have analysis paralysis.

It’s good you’re over here asking these questions to other men, rather than HUS.

Tam the Bam
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“What do women want? Glamorous adventures without risk.”

Margarethe von Trotta, discussing character motivation within her 1981 film “The German Sisters”.

Ted D
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OK, this actually makes some sense to me, but it TRULY goes against everything that indicates a woman expects to be treated as a fully functioning autonomous adult. So is it reasonable to assume that every women, despite being a ball busting bitch in the office or not, WANTS to be “taken care of” by their man? Is this the dirty little secret that women are keeping hidden away? Because although what you posted makes sense, it is TOTALLY putting the responsibility of caring for her on my shoulders. I’m not even against that, but if that is going to… Read more »

Ted D
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In my relationship? Nothing. But I just posted on the other thread that I’ve had a couple run-ins with HR in my past because I’m obviously mistaken that women can be reasonable and logical. If I spoke my mind about half of what I truly think, I’d never have another “career” position again. As far as what I might say? Well, I learned my lesson. Telling a female co-worker she is being an emotional twit is sexist. I didn’t know that before I was “re-educated”, I just assumed it meant I thought she was being an emotional twit. I had… Read more »

Stingray
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despite being a ball busting bitch

The ball busting bitch most likely acts this way because there is no man in her life providing the strength and stability she needs.

Ted D
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Yes and no. It is a matter of how badly I want this to work. But to some extent it is also about how much I want to lower my standards as well. I’m expecting a fully functioning adult partner, not another dependent. I simply might be asking for too much there, and if that’s the case I need to start asking myself if I want the job at all. I’m good with having final say in big decisions, picking where we go to eat, or whatever. But I don’t know that I want to be responsible for another person’s… Read more »

deti
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deti
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“So is it reasonable to assume that every women, despite being a ball busting bitch in the office or not, WANTS to be “taken care of” by their man?” Yes. In all things. She wants you to break the ties, make the decisions, and direct the course of your lives together. That is on your shoulders. And therefore, you and your SO are not “equal partners”. You are dominant, she is submissive. Thing is, she has to agree to be submissive. There are things you can do to gently mold and press her into submission and enforce it (a little… Read more »

Ted D
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I actually started my journey to the red pill at MMSL. I’ve read Athol’s book, twice. My issue isn’t with his model at all, it’s with the fact that no one (at least most men and just about all women) don’t want to admit that this is the preferred setup in a relationship. I’m good with it, but I want it out in the open. Otherwise it is all a deception intended to keep the peace. Maybe its a matter of time? StingRay seems to be fine with it, so perhaps after being in such a relationship, women come to… Read more »

deti
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Ted:

You are responsible for the decisions and directing the course of your lives together. You are not, however, responsible for her moods, her feelings, her well-being or her happiness.

You are not responsible for another person’s conduct, actions, or feelings.

You cannot make your SO happy. She has her circumstances, and she voluntarily chooses to be happy or unhappy.

Stingray
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If you please her (by being dominate) you may very well find that she simply falls into her natural role of her wanting to please you. My opinion is that you are wrong in wanting to bring this out in the open with her. There is nothing for her to admit as she doesn’t actually know what she wants. If you try to bring this into the open with her, she will resent you for it. Bring to the relationship what you want it to be and see what happens. No one can give you a manual. You have to… Read more »

Ted D
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This is far more like work than a relationship to me… All my life I thought the “hard” work of a relationship was going to work, paying the bills, taking care of the yard and house, and “communicating” effectively. Compared to THIS, all that is a cakewalk. Well it’s painfully obvious why my marriage tanked. I don’t know that I want to jump through all these hoops simply to keep a woman in my life happy and content. It is asking me to take on a whole new level of responsibility for another person, yet no one ever ONCE clearly… Read more »

Ted D
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“There is nothing for her to admit as she doesn’t actually know what she wants. ” And its wrong of me to want her to understand what she wants? “If you try to bring this into the open with her, she will resent you for it.” So teaching her about her own nature is a bad thing? For Christ’s sake, is there anything logical at all about dealing with a woman? I feel like we are talking about a species other than human. I get that men and women are different, but honestly, we all have the capacity for self… Read more »

Stingray
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So teaching her about her own nature is a bad thing? The way that you want to go about doing it will only blow up in your face. You cannot explain it to her. She won’t hear you. Is it too much to expect people to figure thier own selves out before they expect someone else to do it for them? No it’s not. But you are going to have to give her time to do this. She is not going to get this by sitting down and listening to you talk about it with her. She may figure it… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
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It’s not the relationship you’re working on, it’s yourself that you’re working on. You seem to have this idealized goal state in mind, to perfect the relationship.

This is how betas think – “what do I have to do to make the relationship great?”

For the Beta mindset the relationship is the focus, not themselves. A good relationship is just an incidental byproduct of an Alpha mindset. For almost 16 years I’ve been married, and in that time I have NEVER worked on my relationship. It’s good because it’s the result of my creating a better me.

https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/rewriting-the-rules/

Stingray
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Ted,

By God, this.

Read it and read it again. Women want to be allowed to go along for the ride. Your ride. Your life. If you try to make us your life, then you’ve lost.

Ted D
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“You are projecting your own feelings onto her. As long as the two of you are happy and you are both getting much of what you want from the relationship who cares whether or not she understands it? What’s important is that you are getting her respect. She will understand that and it is enough.” Yeah I can easily see I am projecting. I expect everyone to be AT LEAST as self aware as I am, because i don’t think I’m all that far along. It seems that compared to the “muggles”, I’m leap years ahead. And it frustrates me… Read more »

Wudang
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Ted, It feels tiresome now and it will feel tiresome for quite some time but that will/should eventually change. I had similar thoughts about this and when I asked the guy I see as my mentor in this, who has himself undergone a similar change, he said that it won`t be tiresome anymore once you have really changed and truly become that different man because it is not tiresome to be who you really are. And even though you are not that person today there is in your subconcious, in your nercous system in your hormonal makeup, a potential for… Read more »

Ted D
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Well that was what I believed, but unless I’m reading wrong, that isn’t what I’m being told now. IF I want/expect a happy relationship, it seems I AM at least on some level responsible for her moods, happiness, and feelings. Sure, I can go on doing whatever the hell I want and let her get mad, leave, or whatever, but that doesn’t seem to be the recipe for long term success. I know I can’t literally “make her happy”, but it seems like a lot of the things described here are simply ways of manipulating her to be “happy”, which… Read more »

King A (Matthew King)
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Ted D wrote: For ******* sake, is there anything logical at all about dealing with a woman? I feel like we are talking about a species other than human. I get that men and women are different, but…. Do you yell at infants for being so stupid too? … honestly, we all have the capacity for self examination and rational thought. Indeed, men are the more rational sex. But don’t toot your own horn so much, chief, just because you are a late member to the club. You are less rational than you think: a man who has abjured his… Read more »

Ted D
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Well shit. I’m no longer a push over at home. I have taken control of my finances, am getting back into better shape (have a long way to go, but I’m at least half way there), I’m getting back into writing music and collaborating with old friends, and despite being set back with a divorce am managing to move on without much drama. I’ve been successfully running a MAP for months, and I’m feeling pretty good about the progress. And that is why things are going well in my relationship up to now? So “the relationship” doesn’t actually need much… Read more »

deti
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Ted, I just have to say it’s gratifying and educational watching you wash down the last of the honkin’ red pill you’ve been nursing for the past few months or so.

Ted D
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LOL don’t celebrate yet. I’m still choking on the bitch…

King A (Matthew King)
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Ted C wrote: … I need to start asking myself if I want the job at all. I’m good with having final say in big decisions, picking where we go to eat, or whatever. But I don’t know that I want to be responsible for another person’s mood, well being, and happiness for the rest of my life. I don’t have pets because I don’t want another being to take care of. You are a man-child, an overgrown boy, a discredit to my sex. Take your faux free-spirit faggotry elsewhere. We don’t get to choose our duties. We can only… Read more »

Stingray
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And she will be happy doing whatever it is *I* want regardless of her desires?

I think you will find that your desires become her desires, Ted.

Also, the only thing you can control is yourself. When you can do that, she will follow along as *you* are the only place she will want to be.

King A (Matthew King)
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This is why real men are entrepreneurs, business owners, and independent contractors. I would last about ten seconds with some imperious “HR department” (which are notoriously staffed by women, correct? I am proud that I don’t even know…) before laughing at their absurd expectations. I cringe to even enter the post office or DMV. The nausea descends on me with the fluorescent glow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnLDMqPBeKQ I write the “harassment” policies in my office, and as for the cartoon code that petarded Clinton, all I can say is, come and get me, coppers. I insist that the girls who “work” for/with me… Read more »

Ted D
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First of all, fuck you. You really don’t know shit about me, my sense of duty, or how seriously I take my responsibilities. All you know for sure is I’m completely clueless about women. It’s all fine and well for you to sit in judgement over me because I am stupid, but don’t ever assume that my ignorance makes me weak willed or irresponsible. All this bullshit I’m going through is BECAUSE I want to be a responsible mate for my SO. If I didn’t take this shit seriously I wouldn’t give a fuck, which strangely enough seems to be… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
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So is it reasonable to assume that every women, despite being a ball busting bitch in the office or not, WANTS to be “taken care of” by their man? Is this the dirty little secret that women are keeping hidden away?

Yes it is.

Ted D
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King A – “This is why real men are entrepreneurs, business owners, and independent contractors” I was told growing up that I would never own a business, or be a CEO. I’m a bastard child of a first generation Polish immigrant that was P & D’d by a ‘cad’ and have been told my “lot in life” since i can remember. I’ve managed to hold down an IT career since 1994 (despite several early encounters with sexual harassment and HR) and get a college degree, which is a first for my family. I’m not trying to go all Maury on… Read more »

deti
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deti
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Just in here checking in on Rollo’s patient, Ted D. How you doing? Pill going down OK? Vitals good? Eyes open? Clear thinking? Insight good? The patient is making good progress, but still requires some observation. We’ll keep the patient here for a couple of days. Dr. Tomassi would like his confidence/dominance levels and self-esteem levels taken every 8 hours. We’ll administer some further red pill in the morning, and discharge plan him in a few days with a prescription for reading up here and getting to the gym. Loading...

Ted D
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I’m hanging in there. Still somewhere between utter amazement and mild nausea, but it’ll pass. I’ve been walking daily for months and was actually down at the YMCA a week back picking up membership info. Confidence is holding, but I feel like a real schmuck right now, so don’t expect too much. Dominance is gonna take some time, but it helps for now to simply frame it as “don’t take any shit” and we’ll go from there. I need to re-frame all of my thinking, not just the stuff regarding relationships and women. In fact, my ‘frame’ in that respect… Read more »

Stingray
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Ted,

If you are joining the Y here are two invaluable sites:

http://www.bodybuilding.com/

http://www.t-nation.com/

Read, read, read, and then read some more. They are great places for information.

mikec74
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Ted, I skimmed many of the recent comments…but here are some thoughts. Try to get out of your head so much. I’m an analytical type, but you are overanalyzing, overthinking, and seem to have a desire to want to oververbalize these things to your SO. Rollo has made an excellent point in the past about the tendency of beta guys to want to vomit everything out. You do NOT need to talk through every single detail with your SO about these dynamics. You just have to DO and take action and than observe the response, and course correct, and calibrate.… Read more »

Stingray
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Stingray
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MikeC,

Very sincerely, thank you, Sir.

King A (Matthew King)
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I’m not your dad, so you can save the teenage hysterics. And you can save the “You really don’t know shit about me” for the forums where people still believe in NAMALT and Precious Little Snowflakes. I really do know quite a bit about you because I know your type, but leave that aside. By asserting you break the mold and assuming certain moral physics don’t apply to you is one of the better indications that your predicament is as typical as I claimed it is. Further, I wasn’t referring to you as an emo pussy. I was saying your… Read more »

King A (Matthew King)
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Just in here checking in on Rollo’s patient, Ted D. How you doing? Too much support-circle vibe for Ted D. Changing your frame means stop looking back, stop lacerating yourself on memory, stop defeating yourself before you begin. This is a talking forum, but there is no talking cure. Women talk it out. Men pummel it out. There is no such thing as regret. Regret is living backward. Who cares about what happened before this moment? The only people who wistfully contemplate What Might Have Been are those who have decided their future will be defined by morose fatalism: There… Read more »

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