Since 50 Shades of Grey is essentially the same plot formula as Twilight, feel free to insert the relevant protagonists’ names for Bella and Edward here.
I’ve had a lot of PMs asking me for some input regarding the runaway popularity of the B-Grade fan porn that is 50 Shade of Grey. Vox had a brief spot about it in relation to how men can’t win for losing in girl-world. Aunt Giggles had an interesting run down of its popularity, but predictably eels her way around the operative point of how semi-violent romance porn affirms the uglier truths of Game and hypergamy – not to mention avoiding the sticky aspect of ‘committed’ women fantasizing about it.
I honestly haven’t given the book too much headspace since it only reaffirms what the manosphere has been professing for over a decade now: in spite of all protestations of the opposite, women get off on dominance. Big shock, I know. It’s ironic that The Chateau should need to cite psych study upon psych study, ad infinitum for 6 years to reinforce a dynamic that women will now gleefully admit to only after a cheap, fanfiction sub-porn hack calls them blushingly out to the carpet on it.
If this book represents any significant turning point it will be its role in provably, viscerally, forcing women to acknowledge their own bullshit. I can hardly wait for the girl-world collective mental twistings in the wind – the desperate whir of millions of rationalization hamsters grasping for a plausible deniability or a freshly minted social convention (male shaming for bringing women to men’s porn mentality) that will excuse them from the guilt of an inconvenient truth. Perhaps the NAWALT trope, that one’s always the Swiss army knife for the feminine cause. Really anything that will put the Hypergamy Genie back in the bottle and keep the questioning Betas from getting too curious about feminine nature will do.
In the Bitter Taste of the Red Pill comments, esteemed colleague Dalrock had a timely and profound post that fits this porn-dominance formula perfectly:
These women don’t just want to build a better beta, they want to tame the alpha. In fact, I think the former is just another way they are trying to approach the latter. They want to take an inherrently unsafe activity and make it safe. They want to submit to a man without having to submit; they want a man who can tame their feral self. They want him to trip their danger signals. Even better if he is a stranger from a strange land.
They wan’t this all to happen without giving up their freedom; they want to play this out in the context of serial monogamy, so they can feel loved while also claiming their promiscuity is moral. They want to lose controll to a string of strangers who have all of the hallmarks of very dangerous men, and they want a promise that this will always end well.
They want to know that this will be safe, without it losing the excitement of it feeling unsafe. They are telling men to build a sort of serial monogamy amusement park where they can ride the roller coaster and experience the fear of falling or crashing, while knowing that just behind the scenes grown ups are actually in charge and are responsible for them safely feeling unsafe.
One more thing. As I mentioned above they don’t want to be hemmed in. So instead of building an actuall amusement park, they want roller coasters to spring up randomly in the same exact circumstances where the real danger they mimik would appear. They want to be driving their car on the freeway one instant, and the next experience the fear of careening out of controll the next. They want to impulsively jump off the edge of the Grand Canyon and have a parachute appear and deploy at the last minute. And all they ask is your guarantee that all of this will be safe.
Behold, the female porn dynamic perfected. Danger without danger, bad boy with a heart of gold, a guy who wont cheat, but could cheat,..
Also applies to The Hunger Games
Same formula, but Hunger Games was a snuff film for tweens – BONUS!
Running Man meets Lord of the Flies, peppered with a bit of Spy Kids.
Link me, Rollo
Thanks for the kind words Rollo.
Don’t forget Bill Bennet’s predictable take, which is that women writing, buying, and reading books like 50 shades of grey proves that men are bad.
Vox did a pretty good breakdown of that already. Linked.
Also, insert rape fantasies into this same mold as well.
“These women don’t just want to build a better beta, they want to tame the alpha. In fact, I think the former is just another way they are trying to approach the latter. They want to take an inherrently unsafe activity and make it safe. They want to submit to a man without having to submit; they want a man who can tame their feral self. **** And all they ask is your guarantee that all of this will be safe.” FIrst they want to make the beta more alpha. But the ultimate fantasy is to make the alpha more… Read more »
I dont know. I used to think girls fell in love with the “positive” aspects of the wolf. Now Im starting to think Im projecting there, and that it’s me, seeing the positive aspects of the wolf, or, the “beta in the alpha”, so I can rationalize the whole thing. It makes more sense that girls want the wolf for the wolf. Forget about the sanitizing stuff. Maybe they just want the danger, negative emotions included. None of the “taming” the alpha, but “owning” the alpha, which is different. If you own a dangerous wolf, then you own a dangerous… Read more »
If Im right, then women want to “own” men including betas and do as they please with them. The security and safety dont come from they taming or changing the alphas, but from the owning / control perspective. The carousel feels “safe” when women can decide when and how stuff ends and starts and how long it lasts and who pay. It doesnt require alphas to be “tamed” or whatever. All it needs is that women own the circus, and it becomes “safe”
Yohami, I don’t know. I will only give you my own perspective here, but I suspect that it goes the same for other women. I don’t want to own my husband. On the contrary, I like the feel of him, sort of owning me. He likes to call me “woman” as in “woman, make me a sandwich”. Now, he says it with a twinkly in his eye, only half joking. I LOVE it. It makes me feel like I am his. That I am his chosen one, as it were. I have no interest in owning him, because if I… Read more »
Stingray. He owning you can make you feel safe, he owns you, you submit and surrender etc.
How does that reconcile / cohexist with nagging, for example, or manipulating the guy so he does what you want? not talking about you specifically though.
Or, if you dont own him, the alpha, how come he’s not banging every other girl around you?
Bear with me. I can’t answer these questions without it sounding like I am blowing up my own skirt. I’m not attempting to do that. I am just trying to answer your questions. How does that reconcile / cohexist with nagging, for example, or manipulating the guy so he does what you want? I don’t nag. Been there/tried that. It’s useless and pointless. Me: Hubby, I have asked you to do X. Why haven’t you done it yet? Husband: If you stop nagging, I just might get to it. Me: I would stop nagging if you just got it done.… Read more »
Yohami,
Rollo could probably shed more light on that second question. He’s been married for 16 years, if I recall correctly. Never strayed. I gave you my side, he could better give the man’s.
All of this stuff is making the mistake that thaey are motivated to acheive some end goal: “owning the wolf”, or “building a better beta”. They are not goal-directed in that way: all they care about is how they are feeling *right now*.
“Want” is different than “goal oriented”. Obviously what they want is to feel good, where “good” can be many things, that are often contradictory.
* “own” men including alphas
It makes more sense that girls want the wolf for the wolf.
Little Red Riding Hood has long been considered more of a metaphor than just a simple fairy tale.
There are things that come with wolves:
http://qkme.me/y4o
One interesting aspect of this story formula is the necessity women feel in adding a more overtly sexual element to what’s really tripping their emotional response to the narrative.
It’s not enough to just have the Alpha wolf love and cherish the Lego brick, women will take up new careers as fiction writers (albeit unoriginal writers) in order to put a more satisfying visceral sexual element into that story if it’s not present, or well represented enough, and in their ideal terms.
Great post, my wife is currently reading this series and despite the drivel that is spewed within (weak writing, unrealistic plot, disjointed sex “scenes” based on my quick skimming over some of the first book) she has been titillated. I’d say this suburban mom support for this type of book supports hypergamy and the dominant male, alpha-types that they don’t see in their partners. For me personally as I work to up my Alpha in the MMSL sense, I’m hoping to jump on the train and open up some new possibilities in the bedroom.
but predictably eels her way around the operative point of how semi-violent romance porn affirms the uglier truths of Game and hypergamy – not to mention avoiding the sticky aspect of ‘committed’ women fantasizing about it. I read many of the comments, and I continue to be surprised at the step-by-step regression to a more “blue-pill” outlook on all things related to gender dynamics and female sexuality. One comment in particular literally shocked me (I’ll try to dig it up later) but amounted to “Hey, Beta Nice guy, don’t worry one bit about what this book says, IT”S JUST FANTASY,… Read more »
plausible deniability – one of the most useful tools in a woman’s repertoire.
Hence the manosphere maxim: ALWAYS judge women by their actions, not their words.
Stingray, Yes, that’s what I said Im not talking about you specifically. Trying to figure out females in general. I dont know if you’re the demographic ( did you devour 50 shades of gray and twilight?) But since you brought it up: “I don’t nag. Been there/tried that.” Aight, but why did you try to begin with? how do you reconcile having attempted to have him do what you want, with your claim that you dont want to own him? Owing also means “having the sole rights to” “He gets hit on all the time. He could if he wanted… Read more »
Heh, sorry. Thought you were sparing my feelings (solipsism wins again! Hate it). Aside from that, I feel somewhat safe giving my personal impressions as they are just like most other women’s. I don’t think my impressions would be that far off from most of them. Aight, but why did you try to begin with? how do you reconcile having attempted to have him do what you want, with your claim that you dont want to own him? I tried it to begin with because I thought that was how it was supposed to be done. Call it a shit… Read more »
Very interesting.
“To own a man is to resent him”
Start a blog, that’s your headline.
“I never gave him permission to sleep with other women”
The language betrays something. How can you give permission or not to something you dont own?
Ha! I was sitting here thinking and I new you were going to ask this: How can you give permission or not to something you dont own? I have been thinking about my response. I was responding to your use of the word “can” in your original question. Reading it, I took your surprise to mean that this was something we had discussed in our marriage and I was ok with it. Therefore, me being ok with it was somehow giving permission. No, it’s not like that. Out of respect for me and our marriage my husband will come to… Read more »
Dammit, “knew”.
Stingray, So damn interesting. “While I really don’t want the power in our relationship there are situations that arise that my hindbrain tells me to take advantage of, because if I did I might just be able to shift the power dynamic to myself.” I know the community wants to call these female hindbrain power pushes “hit tests”. I´ll call them what they are, reptilian hindbrain power pushes. Real attempts to gain power. Men have them too. The difference is we men dont get all unaroused / dont resent the situation when we get the power. We resent it when… Read more »
“I´ll call them what they are, reptilian hindbrain power pushes. Real attempts to gain power. ” Exactly. I’ve always said that it’s a functionally accurate description to talk of shit tests, but it’s not a wholly accurate description. Women really actually do want the power. They are not merely testing the man. It’s more than just a test – it’s a genuine power grab. And incidental to that is a general loss of attraction for the guy if she gets power. I think it’s important to know that. Functionally, as a beginner, all you need to know is the shorthand… Read more »
“And incidental to that is a general loss of attraction for the guy if she gets power.”
It’s not incidental. Having gotten one, you want another one. Why have one manginia financing your life, when you can have two?
Yohami,
This may take some time and more than one comment. Kids are busy today and this is one thing I have to think about in quiet to be able to answer you well. Please bear with me. Also, due to the conflicting feelings in women we are talking about, I may get it wrong and have to back track some. You asking specific questions will help me to not do that. Anyway, bear with me. I will answer the everything as soon as I can.
Stingray is next-generation woman, ahead of her time. After the sturm und drang of our anomalous era passes, all women will be on a path to where she already is. Stingray, consider writing in a more formal way. You are in possession of an important piece of the puzzle that needs to be articulated consistently and regularly. This community should have its own “NRO Corner.” The individual sites are too personalized and inconsistent, and the aggregator/gateways are poorly edited. The leading writers in this web consortium should arrange a gang-blog so that we don’t have to keep piecing together the… Read more »
May I be Derb? 😉
In all seriousness, thank you. A “Corner” blog could be very interesting, though I sense some danger in it. Can’t quite put my finger on it. There are a lot of VERY strong personalities in these parts. Would make for interesting debate, though.
NRO’s The Corner is not the best example (especially given l’affaire Derbyshire), but it is a successful gang-blog, the only one I know of and read. Gang blogs require management and an agreement to be loosely corralled by editorial guidance, which is why it hasn’t happened in this community and maybe never will: the pretensions to independence are an article of faith that drives bloggers to blog in the first place. A certain frame of mind regards editorial management as censorship, hence the exaggerated howling about Derb’s firing. (Which is ironic, given that his gang-blog “SecularRight.org” has erased my comments… Read more »
Stingray is next-generation woman, ahead of her time. After the sturm und drang of our anomalous era passes, all women will be on a path to where she already is Absolutely. There is a blogger Olive kind of doing the same thing, and there was one discussion on HUS where she got smacked down hard for some of the ideas and notions she was putting out there that related to female introspection and what WOMEN SHOULD DO differently. Its way too early in game for the message and thought process someone like Stingray has to even be close to mainstream.… Read more »
Mike, I read very few of the comments there. Out of curiosity, what did she have to say and what was the general response? Good for her. I think she is quite young, too. It takes a lot of courage to say this stuff there, especially for a woman. I tend to temper (heh, Matt King, yes . . . temper) my thoughts when I post at HUS as I know that if I were completely blunt they would be outright rejected. I hope she took it well and stuck to her guns. Also, thank you, as well. I hope… Read more »
Stingray, here is an example of her thoughts: http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com/2012/03/experiment.html The problem with being feisty in a relationship is that it has the potential to create power struggles. Feisty can become aggressive, and aggressive women are not attractive and don’t handle relationships well. For these women, it is important to step back, especially if they do want their men to lead. My boyfriend, by nature, is a very laid back guy. That said, he absolutely hates when people try to control him, so in stepping back, I’m allowing him to be himself. Anyways, there was a quite contentious discussion….Yohami knows what… Read more »
It takes a lot of courage to say this stuff there, especially for a woman. FWIW, I imagine this must be difficult. Everything I’ve read and studied seems to suggest women feel social ostracization orders of magnitude higher than most men. I’ve got to imagine this makes discussing substantive issues difficult where this is going to be immense social pressure to “fall in line” with whatever the majority of view. I suspect it takes enormous fortitude as a woman to stay totally independent of what other women are saying. On that note, I always respected and admired Elisabeth Hasselbeck to… Read more »
First, let’s start with this: Real attempts to gain power. Men have them too. The difference is we men dont get all unaroused / dont resent the situation when we get the power. and But it’s not a test, it’s you, your hindbrain, craving some power. So. I am not sure that it is actually craving power so much as it is wanting to make sure that the man still maintains the power. If a man can stand up to the woman he loves, she can rest assured that he will stand up to anyone else. However, where there is… Read more »
You just summed up the reason why it is all but impossible to have a relationship with most women these days. Their instincts are pushing them one way and society is pushing them in the opposite direction. For a woman to be fulfilled she must submit to someone who is more dominant, but society tells her that’s “weak” which she equates with “bad” so she fights it. The end result is that no one is happy. Women who become more dominant require men who are more dominant still.The shit tests become stronger. Women these days complain that there are no… Read more »
“Women who become more dominant require men who are more dominant still.The shit tests become stronger. Women these days complain that there are no good men. Well, we only have so much energy to devote to bullshit so if you push and push and push sometimes it is just easier for us to walk away and do other things.”
You just described feminism in a nutshell. It was a shit test women collectively gave to society as a whole. Society failed.
When you win a power play, you resent it. Still, you want power / control over him fucking other girls or not. Do you resent him for not fucking other girls? No, I do not resent him for not fucking other girls as I did not demand this power over him. I might be able to argue that our marriage demands it, but I know the reality is that this is a decision that he has made for himself. He is being faithful because that is what he wants. Of course he is attracted to other women, but out of… Read more »
I will risk ridicule here, and say that the reason that Stingray’s man controls their relationship is, at least in part, because he controls himself. A part of that is not banging other girls just because he can.
Also, even though he’s in charge, I think he must respect her; at least he respects the relationship.
Yep. He read this comment section the other day and said something along the lines of “I lead myself where I want. If I wanted to sleep with other girls I simply would.” End of story, really. The rest of what I wrote above might have a little to do with it, but it is minute and is likely hamster spinning on my part.
Reading the reviews of 50 Shades on Amazon will tell you everything you need to know. What’s especially hilarious & telling are the 1-star reviews—a fair number of them are complaining that the guy in the story wasn’t dominant/violent/sexy/alpha enough.
Manginas wept.
“If this book represents any significant turning point it will be its role in provably, viscerally, forcing women to acknowledge their own bullshit.”
You’d think that was the case, but I doubt anything will come of it. Those that are Game-savvy already know what you speak of because of Nancy Friday’s book My Secret Garden which was released almost 40 years ago! What’s happening with 50 Shades is EXACTLY the same sentiments that were brought to light with Garden all those years ago, so why would anything change now?
This is what I was thinking too. I don’t know how popular The Secret Garden was or how it compares to 50 Shades’ popularity, but the only thing it will force is another round of rationalization.
Yohami,
I knew I missed something. You asked if I devoured 50 Shades of Grey and Twilight.
I did not. I have zero interest in either one. That is not to say I haven’t read any female “romance” (Heh, right) novels, though.
Has ANYONE ever jumped off the Grand Canyon? Sounds like something moralistic nice guys would NOT do. Here I go…
WHat I find most interesting about the comments women are making about this is the following slip up. They suddenly think it is sort of ok to admit they do like the alpha badboy as long as he is (only) nice to her. The fact that he is nice to her supposedly makes it alright and moral to want such a guy. But when they say it is not only ok but important that he remain hard and cold towards everyone else they admit they want an immoral man who behaves immoraly to everyone else than her. I don`t think… Read more »
Heh, NARNALT. I haven’t read any harlequin romance, but I am pretty sure these stick with the basic noble hero who could never, ever fall in love falling for the special everywoman snowflake. I’m embarrassed to talk about it because I know how stupid they are, but the ones I have read and enjoyed are the noble man incapable of love because of depression, brooding, etc, found Miss Perfect, dominated her and they lived happily ever after (Often times making it perfectly clear that for whatever reason he would continue to be dominate.) I think this idea of the anti-hero… Read more »
“Sociopath” is not a behavior it is a psychological affliction.
“Respect” “Asshole” yada yada you’re still in conflict.
Accept that women want something you personally don’t believe should be desired.
Feel free to not like the “disrespectful, mean, asshole” Just know that women will like him regardless of your opinion.
Romance novels goes too far in terms of betaization. They end with the alpha behaving beta towards her and so people asume and some women argue that is what women want. But had the books had a couple of more chapters the alpha would have become boring to her and she would have lost attraction. Women don`t want the control the woman in the romance novels get in the end. They still do want the men to be nice to them but not in the way the romance novels portray. Women still DO want the alpha to be nice to… Read more »
Ugh, more emo porn. It is everywhere Lifetime, E! and chich flicks aren’t enough. But wait! There is always more boring emo porn!
Your comments are very interesting Stingray. “having a man who won’t allow that power grab can be even more validating if we can show that off. The women friends will be jealous that we have that.” I have been thinking lately that one of the most cruel and effective and impossible to spot ways a woman can hurt/get back at another woman is to let that other women she her be very submissive and respectfull to her boyfriend. Even though they won`t quite understand why and might at the same time resent what they are seeing on some level I… Read more »
I guess a woman could use that as revenge. It would be incredibly easy, though, for the friend to turn that around using the weak and subordinate argument. I think it would much depend on the friend. I think most women truly do want this, but when they can’t have it, it is VERY easy to fool oneself into being content with what they have, at least for a time. I am pretty sure part of the hamsters job is self preservation. I gotta say though, and maybe I am over thinking it, any woman who consciously uses her man… Read more »
Women who simultaneously try to control men and want to be dominated by men… all line up with the Curse of Eve. I don’t get overly frustrated with women who exhibit this (all of them), it is in their wiring. Don’t get mad at a fish for swimming. It is indeed frustrating that it is such an obvious fact, and yet women go around trying to deny it anyway. Of course they don’t want to tip their hand. Fortunately, thanks to books like 50 Shades, they will not be able to deny it much longer, which will help the red… Read more »
Fortunately, thanks to books like 50 Shades, they will not be able to deny it much longer,
yes, they can deny it. they’ll simply say that the book is merely fiction, ‘just a fantasy’.
never underestimate the power of the hamster.
Solomon Press: in other words, that’s the beaten-dead-horse trope “Why don’t men just man up?” It has do do with what Stingray said here: “Something else that makes all of this even more confusing is that in this jealousy the women friends may come down on the wife calling her submissive and not empowered. It’s crap, but when that herd mentality comes in, these words can be incredibly hurtful. The man must back her up in these situations and reassure his wife that she is in the right. More validation.” Why not man up? Because to do so means you… Read more »
“Civilization is unnatural of course some pretty intrusive things would have to be done to maintain it.”
The appeal to the herd argument is relatively weak. Don’t Man Up because it will cause a person to be lonely?
If you’re pretending to be someone else to gain others acceptance you will be lonely regardless. There really is no difference.
Unless playing charades with people who would detest you if they really knew your true beliefs gives a sense of community.
@gritartisan My version of “Man Up” is different than the feminist Pastors. Mine is more like “Rise up and subjugate women thoroughly”. I don’t think women should have the right to vote. I am all for Patriarchy (which, BTW, is an acceptable setting for men to ‘man up’ because they are in charge). The “man up” cry you hear in churches would be more correctly translated as “lay down” Your assertion that its “too much trouble” and to fight against feminism is to be very alone… well that is just wussbag thinking. I am a Dominant (in the BDSM sense)… Read more »
Who is on the guy’s side? You are. Past tense, here. The more shit tests you pass, the far fewer you will see. I don’t *want* to shit test my husband. When I feel the urge to do it (which is very rare) I squash it. I don’t expect my husband to defend our relationship against feminism, I expect him to have my back. It’s my job to defend the relationship and myself against feminism. As far as my friends, personally, I don’t have female friends. I don’t get along with women very well. They don’t like me much. But… Read more »
I understand what you are saying here. That’s why being calm and assertive always helps my LTRs. We need to be that anchor; that’s why we are the men. It’s part of that ‘dominance’ aspect. The man must know how to calm, inform, and direct his woman in a confident manner–makes her feel safe following him.
That’s why the man leads in dancing. The female can’t help but look up to him(boyfriend) for comfort. It’s in her programming. She wants to feel secure THROUGH him.
Absolutely.
I’ve said before, nothing calms the hamster like a strong dependable man.
Stingray – “Absolutely. I’ve said before, nothing calms the hamster like a strong dependable man.” Is this true in most cases? I’ve been accused of being too clinical and not emotional enough in the past so I have learned to “react” to some of my SOs “crises” moments and honestly the results are less than stellar. Although she gets irritated when I don’t react, those instances generally go better, or at least conclude with far less drama. My preference is to stay cool, but I feel like I’m expected to get pulled into the chaos instead of riding it out… Read more »
Ted, from the 16 Commandments: IV. Don’t play by her rules If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man. Polarity is the core of a healthy loving relationship. She does not want the prerogative to walk all over you with her capricious demands and mercurial moods. Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When… Read more »
That 16th Commandment is quite beautiful.
Thanks to this book it looks like it’s time to approach cougars, MILFs, and married chicks with really sexually dominant direct game!
…no wait that’s always worked.
Speaking of chicks digging dominance, I had to drop some dominance game on a chick I am seeing. She just got out of a relationship and is in the stage where she is doing something 7 days a week so I don’t see her often. Recognized it for what it was early on and sat back and didn’t put much effort into it. Of course this works like a charm to get her coming back for more. After some BS small talk via text the other day she says “I’m actually still kinda busy but when are we going to… Read more »
I noticed this dynamic when I wrote side stories for a couple of movies on fanfiction. A lot of women read them and always commented positively to my male protagonists–which I based their personalities on heavy and dark, alpha characteristics. They always say things like: he’s just misunderstood or I like how you make him so decisive. I even made a graphic scene where he ‘took’ a woman, making her his wife by killing her husband in battle. Yet, instead of saying how horrible it was that her husband was slaughtered… they applauded the hot ‘sex scene'(more like rape)… Boy… Read more »
I’m sure you’ll enjoy this, Rollo. 😉
http://das-sporking.livejournal.com/242338.html
Rollo – “Ted, from the 16 Commandments: IV. Don’t play by her rules” Yeah somewhere in my brain I know this. I still struggle with the concept of trusting that *I* know better what my SO needs that she does. It just strikes me as being very egotistical. I can’t help feeling like I’m breaking some rule of “humanity” by assuming I know best. Although, I don’t have that problem with my children, because I assume they don’t have enough experience to make those kinds of decisions for themselves. Treating an adult like one of my children just seems very… Read more »
There are two kinds of people who believe in equalism, those who want to use it for control, and those who are uncomfortable with the responsibility that comes from being in a position of authority.
You can still be an authority and be a ‘good’ person. Equalism tricks you by conflating authority with a desire for power.
I can see that. I fall into the second category. I am very uncomfortable being responsible for other people, because ultimately I can’t control what they think or do. And if they fail while I am responsible, that means I failed as well, which puts my success in the hands of another person. Again excluding my children. But I see it as my responsibility to be in authority over them until they are an adult, so I don’t feel any conflict about it. However, I do personally feel responsible every time they fail at something, but do my best not… Read more »
It isn’t often talked about in these spheres but the counterpart to equalism being BS is that not every man can be an “alpha”. The world needs beta males. And there is nothing wrong with being one. Most guys fall into that category. Maybe you don’t have the temperament to step into the role of being responsible for other, and that’s fine. Just remember though, this isn’t a black or white thing and the further you fall toward the “work my ass off for everyone else’s benefit” side, the more you are going to get stuck doing shit for everyone… Read more »
Treating an adult like one of my children just seems very demeaning. If an adult is behaving like a child then . . . It’s not egotistical to stand firm and do what you know is right. It’s not about giving her what she wants rather giving her what she needs. The two are often completely opposite. A woman is a ball of feelings at any given moment. A woman who is upset is an enormous ball of conflicting feelings that are nearly impossible to tease apart and figure out. What can tease them apart better than anything else is… Read more »
“It’s not egotistical to stand firm and do what you know is right. It’s not about giving her what she wants rather giving her what she needs. The two are often completely opposite” I understand that, but it still takes the responsibility from HER and puts in on MY shoulders. Why should I have to determine what is best for her, isn’t that her job? Further, I would be pretty pissed if someone acted the same towards me. I am perfectly capable of deciding what I need for myself, and if I’m not, let me fail on my own terms.… Read more »
Stingray – “A woman is a ball of feelings at any given moment. A woman who is upset is an enormous ball of conflicting feelings that are nearly impossible to tease apart and figure out.” I also wanted to comment on this and forgot. Why is it MY issue to resolve her emotional turmoil? Wouldn’t a responsible adult realize they were an emotional wreck and do something about it themselves? I’m all for being supportive, but being the “rock” to tease apart her ball of emotions sounds like a co-dependency issue more than a healthy relationship. Where is is HER… Read more »
Because most of us can’t do that without a strong man t show us how. Holy Hell Ted. You are still stuck in this place where men and women are alike. We. Are. Not. Most women don’t even realize that they are a ball of emotions. Bottom line: It’s not your issue to resolve anything at all. I am not saying you have to micromanage her whole life. I am saying you are the calm, the consistency. You don’t need to make her decisions for her. You be there for her to hang onto when she loses her way. Just… Read more »
You still believe that women are independent, rational agents, self-aware and in control of their emotionality. Yet another result of an equalist mindset.
Ted, what you’re frustrated with is why a woman can’t behave as a man. The equalist names her “responsible adult” because it doesn’t want to offend the sensibilities of blank slate ideology.
She looks to a man for stability because she is a woman, not a responsible adult. Even the most well grounded and mature woman will still look to a man for direction and emotional security.
Even the most well grounded and mature woman will still look to a man for direction and emotional security.
A man she can depend on to give her this is like air.
Stingray – ” Most women are never going to realize they even have problems in this to own until they meet a man who is strong enough and willing to show her what they are. It is 99% unconscious.” Thank you. I’ve been asking this general question for some time and you are the first woman to give me a straight answer. I realize women and men are different, but it seems my mistake was believing that everyone should be introspective enough to realize at least some of this on thier own. In this light, it really is very similar… Read more »
This is how I know you’re still plugged into the Matrix. Your default authority is still what women tell you.
Read this:
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/12/07/the-horses-mouth/
I can handle that but I’m hoping that this also implies that she will at some point figure out how to deal with this on her own? Even a little? This is a more difficult question to answer because it depends on the girl. I believe the potential is always there, yes. Your strength should begin to feed into her and strengthen her. She will still need to lean but hopefully not as hard or as often. If she lets herself this can happen. I don’t believe that all women let themselves learn this though. Some believe that depending on… Read more »
Rollo – I get it, but I wanted to hear it from a woman. No disrespect, but hearing a bunch of men say what a woman needs just doesn’t seem legit, no more than a woman telling men how game should work. Ted, man…….how long have you been around this stuff? The first thing you learn when your eyes start to open is to avoid listening to what women say. Like, literally, if you can’t grasp this one very simple principle you might as well just hang it up cause this is what polluted your mind in the first place.… Read more »
GLC – I’ve been around the ‘sphere for about a year, give or take a bit, but most of that time has been spent at MMSL and HUS. I made the rounds to other PUA related sites, but frankly the undercurrent of anger at most of them turned me off and I rarely read any of them. I have been coming here from time to time, and BadgerHut as well. And I completely get that what women say and what they want/need is different, but I cannot in any kind of good faith simply decide to do what is best… Read more »
However, if it goes against her will,
What she says her will is and what her body and subconscious are telling her her will is are two polar opposites. In short, no, she does not know her own will.
Ted, if you ask her “may I be your leader?” then you’re asking for permission – asking for approval – she’s your leader. It might look like a conundrum but the key is to understand: she’s not getting the logical sense of your question, but the emotional content of it. Her response will be towards your emotional question, you asking her to follow her, she’s going to respond “NO” So instead of asking, do it. Try both approaches if this crap disturbs you. First be submissive and see how she responds. Then be more dominant and see how she responds.… Read more »
I understand that, but it still takes the responsibility from HER and puts in on MY shoulders. Why should I have to determine what is best for her, isn’t that her job? Most girls I date tend to weigh between 100-110lbs. I am just over 200. I could crush these girl’s heads with my right bicep. The fact that men are bigger, stronger and better able to solve problems means that a woman’s natural role is to submit to a man. I know that things have changed a lot over the past couple of hundred years but trust me, evolution… Read more »
All that may be true, but the law doesn’t see things in terms of “natural order”. It may be that men should “lead” and women should “follow”, but unless you know some trick I don’t see how we can ever get that concusses to fly. Perhaps there is a chance on the individual level, if every man starts his relationships with something like “if you are going to be with me, then you will be following my lead. If you are not happy with that, please say so now and I’ll move on.” IF every women didn’t run for the… Read more »
The natural order doesnt need to be enforced. The unnatural does.
You don’t talk about it with her, Ted. You simply become the leader and see how she reacts to it. You are not becoming her drill instructor. You are becoming the head of your house. That doesn’t mean you lay down orders. You stand firm (and fair, since that seems to be your way). These are two different things. That’s not to say that you will never give out orders, but that should be a last resort if that is how you choose to run your home.
“These are two different things. That’s not to say that you will never give out orders, but that should be a last resort if that is how you choose to run your home.” And that may be my real issue. I don’t “lead” in a passive manner. At work when I am in charge of a project, I push things to go the way I see it, and don’t leave much up to chance. Surely I let people do their jobs as best they see fit, as long as it doesn’t go against the plan. I also hate to micromanage,… Read more »
If you decide to lead you are not going to be able to micromanage. That is not being a rock. It’s a bulldozer. Try some things out and see how they work.
FYI: Pickard makes women tingle HARD.
Ted, Honestly, you are just flat out confused about what it means to be a leader in a relationship. This is clear because you want to keep equating it with being an operational manager/micromanager in the workplace, and the two concepts are very different. I am genuinely curious what your goals are now. You’ve been around these parts long enough for various thoughts/ideas to coalesce, but you seem to still be fighting some inner battle especially as it relates to the concept of male leadership. As always, Yohami is spot on, so go reread his comments and simply ponder them.… Read more »
MikeC – “This is clear because you want to keep equating it with being an operational manager/micromanager in the workplace, and the two concepts are very different.” Nice to see you out and about. 😉 Yep, this is indeed my sticking point. I had no model to follow growing up in regards to what a “leader” in a relationship should look like, and I am still trying to work it all out in my head. I am really trying to conceptualize what leading a relationship is about, because I don’t work well using “try and see” methods. I follow plans,… Read more »
Ted, read Dave from Hawaii’s transition in his relationship here:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/
Was he being immoral in what amounted to his saving his marriage by his methods?
StingRay – “FYI: Pickard makes women tingle HARD.”
LOL. I am a fan of Kirk. He was an asshole for sure, but he did shit HIS way. Pickard strikes me as more politician than a warship captain. In fact, the entire Next Gen franchise seems very “Utopian” and socialist to me. Everyone wants to play nice, even when under attack.
Rollo – “Was he being immoral in what amounted to his saving his marriage by his methods?” No. Perhaps he was/is being a bit manipulative, but since he has his relationship’s best interests at heart I would say it is moral. But my issue isn’t really a moral one, or at least morality is only a small part. *I* know I would approach it with the relationship’s best interests in mind, but what *I* think is best for the relationship and what she thinks is best might be very different. In addition, most of those examples, while demonstrating a change… Read more »
Ted, I know it is hard to wrap your head around the idea that women are somewhere between men and children when it comes to knowing what is best for them but it’s true. The only reason you continue to hold on to these flawed beliefs is because your logical man-brain has a hard time reconciling the disconnect between words and actions. When you begin to base your beliefs and decisions on the outcomes that you see around you rather than what women and society in general tells you that you SHOULD be believing and doing you will go from… Read more »
GLC – “When you begin to base your beliefs and decisions on the outcomes that you see around you rather than what women and society in general tells you that you SHOULD be believing and doing you will go from being a servant to society to being a master of reality.” I’m starting to understand this, but it still feels an awful lot like “the ends justifies the means” in that you are basing decisions on how you want things to end instead of on what may or may not be “right”. Here is one of my issues letting this… Read more »
There is a middle ground. You don’t have to choose between being a sociopath or a lap dog. You don’t have to completely throw away your morals. You just have to recognize when you aren’t getting a fair deal.
Who gets to decide what’s a fair deal and what isn’t? What you’re advocating seems like the same chaos that Ted warns you about.
Me.
The trick is figuring out what is or is not a fair deal. I mean, If I base that solely on what *I* want, it probably wont be fair for anyone else.
Ted, please stop worrying about being fair. Who told you life is (or should be) fair? Equalists, socialists? Brainwash, hogwash.
I think GLC was saying that you should question and suspend your belief in what you’ve been told by women and society. Instead base your beliefs on your first-hand experiences. Look at your immediate surroundings, peoples’ behaviors, and the results of your actions. Trust yourself to fathom the truth and make good decisions based on what you see, not what you have been told.
Flahute – “Ted, please stop worrying about being fair. Who told you life is (or should be) fair? Equalists, socialists? Brainwash, hogwash.” Again, if everyone thinks and acts this way, life would be chaos. Every man for himself only works in small tribal societies where might actually makes right. In the Western world, what is LEGAL makes right, and the bottom line is the law is NOT on men’s side. How exactly do you propose a change of society not backed by the force of law? Of course life isn’t fair, and equality is an illusion. But, the law clearly… Read more »
Actually, Ted, I think you’ve stumbled upon the meta-ethical problem known as the is-ought problem (look it up on wikipedia). As you pointed out it does go a bit beyond gender relations.
It basically boils down to not being able to easily say what ought to be from what is. There isn’t much of a disagreement (among the manosphere) about what IS. But can you really say what OUGHT to be from the reality?
Ted D wrote: “I understand that, but it still takes the responsibility from HER and puts in on MY shoulders. Why should I have to determine what is best for her, isn’t that her job?” Ted, brother, it most emphatically is not her job. It is your responsibility. Now, being “king of your own castle” sounds like it’s all fun and games and capricious assertions of strength, and it is against this immature understanding of power that feminism revolted. Less appreciated is the responsibility: “Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown.” So while feminists think they want the crown,… Read more »
Now, being “king of your own castle” sounds like it’s all fun and games and capricious assertions of strength, and it is against this immature understanding of power that feminism revolted.
Well said, sir.
“Ted, brother, it most emphatically is not her job. It is your responsibility. ” The law says otherwise. Show me were I am legally bound to take on this task, and I’ll be all over it. And the real rub is: she may even allow me to take that responsibility, but if I fail and/or go against her wishes, she has plenty of legal ways to put and end to it and fast. Most of them wouldn’t end favorably for me. This isn’t about whether or not I believe it is natural for the man to lead or not, it… Read more »
Are you in danger of a civil union here Ted? You keep talking law and I thought she was your GF?
Also, if she is happy being your “first mate” why would she bring legal recourse? She is more likely to be unhappy because you let her be the “captain” and you become the “first mate”. The whole Eat. Pray, Love thing. How many men that this happened to do you think were dominate in their relationships?
We live together and have for several years. I found my way to the ‘sphere about 8 months into our relationship, give or take a few. We both have children living with us. We aren’t married, but obviously we are entangled all the same. And that is the catch 22 I find myself in mentally. I KNOW she won’t be happy as the captain, my first marriage and divorce proved that to me. But, I also can’t really force her to follow my lead either. And before we get too far down this rabbit whole, I’m not implying I am… Read more »
Here we go. Now it makes more sense to me. I understood what you were saying before but something was missing. It was this But, I also can’t really force her to follow my lead either. No one wants you to force her to do anything, least of all her. A woman wants to follow a dominate man. Sure, there will be times that you make a decision that goes against what she wants. She may not want that one particular thing to happen but she will respect the “captain”. She will be happy with the overall situation. Leading with… Read more »
Ok this isn’t at all my idea of “leading”, which is the root of the issue. “Sure, there will be times that you make a decision that goes against what she wants. She may not want that one particular thing to happen but she will respect the “captain”. She will be happy with the overall situation.” And I can live with this. I don’t expect to make her happy all the time, but the part *I* was missing is that she would still be happy over all even if some individual decisions don’t go her way. I have a hard… Read more »
I’m also guessing that this varies from woman to woman, meaning that some prefer a more heavy-handed leadership approach while others prefer at least the image of an equal partnership? And, that being the case, for someone like me that doesn’t want to be heavy-handed, a woman that requires less actual leadership would be the best fit? and, the real work in all of this is trying differing amounts of “leadership” to see where the sweet spot is? Yes, yes, and yes. I don’t think many women want to be lead by an iron fist. We do want responsibilities that… Read more »
Ahhhh OK. To me, what you just described is *my* idea of an egalitarian relationship. You each do what you are best at and split the rest. The only point I see that indicates a leadership role is your husband is the “tie breaker” if you are split in a decision.
That is a far cry to me from a more formalized leadership role, which probably works for some, but I would guess not many.
I hear you, Ted. All I can say is this: It’s submission, not subjugation. She must agree to be ruled. She must submit voluntarily. I take that responsibility on my shoulders, but if she tries to take it back, it’s an untenable power struggle. If I fail or she doesn’t like it, she surely can take matters into her own hands. And if she does decide to do so, she’s on her own. I know about all the horror stories of imputed income, wage slavery, punitive alimony, child support abuse, etc. But she’ll be on her own. She won’t want… Read more »
That’s about how I see it… I wish I’d found the ‘sphere before I started this relationship. I would have done things VERY differently. Not saying things are bad, but I would have approached the relationship differently, and would have been up front about some of my expectations. I would have made it clear that I intend to do things my way, and if she wasn’t willing to follow that then we had no future. Hell, when we got together I still wasn’t thinking about making sure I got anything I wanted at all, let alone clearly defined roles in… Read more »
Ted:
I can’t force my wife to stay with me. I can, however, force her to live with the consequences of her decisions.
If she stays with me, she is expected to accept the good and bad that goes with it.
If she leaves, I can force her to accept the consequences of that. If she leaves, her life will be very different from how it is now, and it won’t be all good.
Ted, The simple fact that you are tenative about the law means that you are about 10x more likely to be a victim of it. I really don’t get it. We aren’t even talking about sexual advances here, we are talking about putting yourself in a position of leadership. How exactly are you going to get arrested for taking on a leadership role? I think you are WAAAAY to hung up on the idea this equalism bullshit and you bring up the law is merely an excuse to not move past it. I know, it has been drilled into ALL… Read more »
Ted D wrote: The law says otherwise. Show me were I am legally bound to take on this task, and I’ll be all over it. And the real rub is: she may even allow me to take that responsibility, but if I fail and/or go against her wishes, she has plenty of legal ways to put and end to it and fast. Most of them wouldn’t end favorably for me. This is the bleating of a sheep who is afraid to live. You can live to avoid conflict with the law, or you can live freely until the law reins… Read more »
I was looking for a new elite men’s world. So, instead of talking I went to a foreign land, but their laws sounded like it was named after a woman and there was still females and girlie-men there too. I heard I was omega so I pretended to be a super-tough guy until I was told I had insecure little omega man syndrome. Twilight was when the beta vamp hiding behind a curtain said bring your sons and daughters to my castle dungeon for me to smear 50 shades of shtt in theirs and your faces, then with bloody eyes… Read more »
Winner.
“…forcing women to acknowledge their own bullshit.”
Just a minor note on terminology: here I prefer the term “cowshit”. That’s what it is, after all; let’s give credit where it’s due. The male is not responsible for the female hamster’s manure production.
Ted, BTW, if you walk with a verbal, or non verbal attitude of “I make the rules here and if you’re going to be around me, it’s under my rules”, pussy doesnt run away from you scared, it doesnt go from the hills… instead it floods you, it comes running towards you, from the hills and beyond. Communication, for girls, is not a way to express what they really want and are, it’s not about honesty. Communication, for girls, is a way to get what they want. It’s a poker hand. You cant never take what a woman says at… Read more »
*it doesnt run to the hills… it comes running from the hills
Great stuff as always Yohami. BTW, if you walk with a verbal, or non verbal attitude of “I make the rules here and if you’re going to be around me, it’s under my rules”, pussy doesnt run away from you scared, it doesnt go from the hills… instead it floods you, it comes running towards you, from the hills and beyond. Saturday night, my GF and I watched In Time with Justin Timberlake. I actually thought it was a really good movie, especially in terms of being an allegory indictng our modern winner take all style capitalism. Anyways, we got… Read more »
Yes!
“In my view, part of being a leader simply is setting the right frame, and being firm about what is acceptable and not acceptable.” I’ve never considered setting boundaries and standing my ground a ‘leadership’ kinda thing. Responsible adults also shouldn’t make a habit of pushing boundaries either, but I certainly set boundaries for my children as part of my leadership role with them. I simply have a difficult time applying the same principles to a relationship with another adult. It appears I’m mistaken in believing that she should respect my boundaries simply because we are adults, which is why… Read more »
is I shouldn’t expect my SO to act like a rational adult despite the fact that legally she is labelled one.
YES!!!!
OK, so it’s back to dealing with irrational people, which is where my bone of contention is. I’m expected to handle my own emotional crap and in the very least contain hers. What does she do in return? Or, how about we go about it this way. If she were single and on her own, how would she deal with her emotional shit? Because I don’t understand how me being in the picture removes her responsibility to act like a rational adult. I kinda expect my mate to come to the table as pretty much a self-sufficient rational adult. I’m… Read more »
Ted, “If she were single and on her own, how would she deal with her emotional shit?” She would have girlfriends + beta orbiters to dump her emotional garbage into. “I don’t understand how me being in the picture removes her responsibility to act like a rational adult.” When has she behaved like a rational adult? “This seems a lot like “let’s have an equal relationship as long as we agree, and when we don’t I will act like a brat until I get my way”” Yes, you’re describing a woman and her defacto set of rules. Now, are you… Read more »
Yohami- well holy shit man. That made totally perfect sense. If I want to be in a relationship with a responsible adult, I have to make her BE one. For shit’s sake that is so simple, and yet massively complicated of you buy into the idea that she should already be one herself. It shouldn’t be my responsibility to do so, but I guess my options are deal with bad attitude or step up. I can’t help but notice that this is at least a little demeaning though. We are all saying that a woman cannot be held responsible for… Read more »
It wasn’t demeaning until feminist made it so. And the laws here in the States were pretty well on track with this as well until women coerced men into changing them.
Darn it. Didn’t close the html. Let me try again.
I can’t help but notice that this is at least a little demeaning though. We are all saying that a woman cannot be held responsible for her own emotions.
It wasn’t demeaning until feminist made it so. Also, the laws here in the States were pretty well on track with this as well until women coerced men into changing them.
If she were single and on her own, how would she deal with her emotional shit? She would buy a cat. See, to me if I’m truly expected to handle her stuff and mine, then she should be pulling more of something else off my plate. Absolutely she should. With out a single doubt. This is why women stayed home and men worked. The woman would take care of the home and the man would provide it. She should be taking care of you. They way women are good at. We excel at the details hence the house and the… Read more »
LOL this is where we’ve been circling the wagons lately. We do both work, so I need to give more thought into how we break out responsibilities. What would you think is an equal setup if both people work full-time jobs? Because this may be the sticking point. I feel like her idea of an equal relationship is to split all household chores evenly. that being said, I have to handle the finances if I hope to have anything paid on time. And, I feel like I take more than half of the relationship responsibility already, before this conversation. We… Read more »
And no matter how I might try to explain the conversation we are having here, she will not see things from my perspective at all.
You don’t explain anything. You just do it. If you try to reason with a woman on something like this you will be met with contempt or even hostility. As stingray mentioned they aren’t even aware of what is going on. They are completely immersed in the girl-world to the point where you absolutely have to use actions to push those hindbrain buttons.
Rollo/everyone – thanks for the input. I know I’m a pain in the ass with this, but I’ve been agonizing over this particular point for months as MikeC pointed out. This thread has been more helpful than the last 6 months elsewhere. I don’t have all the answers I’m looking for, but at least I feel like you all are being honest with me without added bullshit to pretty it up.
Read this:
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/21/positive-masculinity-vs-equalism/
So in short: I need to stop being worried about being a chauvinist and misogynist? And despite the fact that my SO may give lip service to the “equality” shtick she will not only accept my leadership but actually wants me to take it IN SPITE of what she says? The entire setup is a giant shit test?… I really hate interpersonal drama. At least with men you know where you stand. All this cloak and dagger shit just pisses me off. Is it really just too much to ask for adults to act responsibly and with a rational attitude?… Read more »
At least with men you know where you stand. All this cloak and dagger shit just pisses me off. Is it really just too much to ask for adults to act responsibly and with a rational attitude? Ted, you’re forgetting, all of this is unconscious on the part of the women. Most women don’t have a clue about any of this. There is no giant secret conspiracy that they pull us into as children. We are just oblivious to it. Basically, it is like a shit test. We are unconscious to those as well. Heh, we think we are acting… Read more »
Yohami nailed it. You have a flawed view of attraction, Ted. Women are happiest when they are being assimilated into the world of a man they are attracted to. You are approaching this from the angle of “what does she want” which creates the opposite effect. This doesn’t mean that her desires go out the window, it just means that she cares more about what YOU care about when she is attracted to you, and the fact that you pull her into your world rather than catering to her desires amplifies this attraction. Stop listening to women when they say… Read more »
Very nicely said.
“Stop listening to women when they say that they want to be equal, because they absolutely do NOT want to be equal. Your woman is simply parroting the feminist script.” That sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen… At least according to the seemingly endless “equality” type classes I’ve endured as part of the corporate world for almost two decades. It makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall. So I’m supposed to continue participating in “polite” society while knowing that all this equality stuff is BS, and I can never call women out on it without… Read more »
You’re only living a lie when you make it a lie. If you feel like you’re playing a role or reading a script, you haven’t internalized Game yet.
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/11/21/kill-the-beta-2/
It makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall. So I’m supposed to continue participating in “polite” society while knowing that all this equality stuff is BS, and I can never call women out on it without fear of legal repercussion? I have to treat my SO one way despite her saying she wants to be treated another, and I can never expect her to admit it? Yea, except for the legal repercussions part. Where is this coming from? You don’t call women out on it because they aren’t even aware of it most of the time… Read more »
Scrap the legal talk. My issue was that there is no way to force a woman to accept leadership, which is still true. StingRay implied that a woman will naturally want to follow, and if not I guess the answer is to move on to another that will. I already placed my bets so to speak, so I need to make the best of the hand I currently hold.
Ted,
“My issue was that there is no way to force a woman to accept leadership”
If it’s forced it’s not leadership. But moreso, women submit to it when its “natural”.
“a woman will naturally want to follow, and if not I guess the answer is to move on to another that will.”
Yes, but first become the version of you that is naturally dominant. Which is more about letting go your self constraints and learning to accept and assert yourself, than it is about forcing anything on anybody.
Force means resistance. Wrong setup.
Fold.
Trust me, you don’t want a relationship with a girl who doesn’t want you to take the lead.
Rollo – “Fold.” I’ve been in a much worse place, been through divorce, and survived. I can do this, I just need to get my head in the right place, which is to say get over feeling like I’m being manipulative, sneaky, and deceiving. If I don’t do it now, I may never get it done, and I’ll find myself in the same place with another woman. I have to get this shit together. Folding would just be throwing in the towel again. GLC – That isn’t my problem so much as just trying to work out the specifics of… Read more »
Ted, you’ve been pretty upfront so let me give you a personal example: In 2005 the company I work for asked if I wanted to relocate to Orlando. That day I essentially decided to uproot my family from Nevada and leave my friends, our families and everything we knew behind. The day I decided this I sat Mrs. Tomassi down at our usual sushi place and said, “we’re moving to Florida in 4 months.” What do you suppose she said to that? “What about my career here? What about my Mom and your Mom, Dad, Brother? What about my friends?… Read more »
“You can be the Dom or the Sub, just know that you’ll only be the Sub for as long as it takes her to find a Dom to drive the car.” No matter how confused and frustrated I may be with all this, I know the above statement is true. I’ve lived it and my divorce proved it to be true. My goal is to figure out exactly what it takes to be the driver, because I honestly don’t know how, and everything I see that I’m supposed to be doing flies completely in the face of “common wisdom”. And… Read more »
Ted D needs to become familiar with Athol Kay’s Captain/First Officer concept. No boat can be run by a committee. That insane fem-democratic concept has wrecked our culture for a hundred years. And to see Ted D internalize and thereby unconsciously and indirectly propagate that fallacy is tragic. Proper leadership does not infantalize its charges. It dignifies them through delegation and division of labor. The lazy thinkers who originated and insisted upon feminism thought they could make natural followers — 75% of men and 99% of women — into leaders just by calling them so, when all this while we… Read more »
I actually started my journey to the red pill at MMSL. I’ve read Athol’s book, twice. My issue isn’t with his model at all, it’s with the fact that no one (at least most men and just about all women) don’t want to admit that this is the preferred setup in a relationship. I’m good with it, but I want it out in the open. Otherwise it is all a deception intended to keep the peace. Maybe its a matter of time? StingRay seems to be fine with it, so perhaps after being in such a relationship, women come to… Read more »
If you please her (by being dominate) you may very well find that she simply falls into her natural role of her wanting to please you. My opinion is that you are wrong in wanting to bring this out in the open with her. There is nothing for her to admit as she doesn’t actually know what she wants. If you try to bring this into the open with her, she will resent you for it. Bring to the relationship what you want it to be and see what happens. No one can give you a manual. You have to… Read more »
“There is nothing for her to admit as she doesn’t actually know what she wants. ” And its wrong of me to want her to understand what she wants? “If you try to bring this into the open with her, she will resent you for it.” So teaching her about her own nature is a bad thing? For Christ’s sake, is there anything logical at all about dealing with a woman? I feel like we are talking about a species other than human. I get that men and women are different, but honestly, we all have the capacity for self… Read more »
So teaching her about her own nature is a bad thing? The way that you want to go about doing it will only blow up in your face. You cannot explain it to her. She won’t hear you. Is it too much to expect people to figure thier own selves out before they expect someone else to do it for them? No it’s not. But you are going to have to give her time to do this. She is not going to get this by sitting down and listening to you talk about it with her. She may figure it… Read more »
“You are projecting your own feelings onto her. As long as the two of you are happy and you are both getting much of what you want from the relationship who cares whether or not she understands it? What’s important is that you are getting her respect. She will understand that and it is enough.” Yeah I can easily see I am projecting. I expect everyone to be AT LEAST as self aware as I am, because i don’t think I’m all that far along. It seems that compared to the “muggles”, I’m leap years ahead. And it frustrates me… Read more »
Ted D wrote: For ******* sake, is there anything logical at all about dealing with a woman? I feel like we are talking about a species other than human. I get that men and women are different, but…. Do you yell at infants for being so stupid too? … honestly, we all have the capacity for self examination and rational thought. Indeed, men are the more rational sex. But don’t toot your own horn so much, chief, just because you are a late member to the club. You are less rational than you think: a man who has abjured his… Read more »
And this is why Rollo’s Blog is one of the best in the Manosphere; heck the whole internet. It has help me have a deeper understanding of the “philosophies” & “why” Game works that no other blog has come close to explaining. Keep up the good work RT. You are definitely an inspiration to your fellow man. *Claps*
My SO has already demonstrated that she is willing to accept leadership from me, I’m just uncomfortable with the “job”
Unfortunately it is in fact a “job”, and you can easily be fired without notice, as you learned from your previous marriage. How bad do you want to keep your job this time around? That’s what it all boils down to.
Yes and no. It is a matter of how badly I want this to work. But to some extent it is also about how much I want to lower my standards as well. I’m expecting a fully functioning adult partner, not another dependent. I simply might be asking for too much there, and if that’s the case I need to start asking myself if I want the job at all. I’m good with having final say in big decisions, picking where we go to eat, or whatever. But I don’t know that I want to be responsible for another person’s… Read more »
Ted:
You are responsible for the decisions and directing the course of your lives together. You are not, however, responsible for her moods, her feelings, her well-being or her happiness.
You are not responsible for another person’s conduct, actions, or feelings.
You cannot make your SO happy. She has her circumstances, and she voluntarily chooses to be happy or unhappy.
Well that was what I believed, but unless I’m reading wrong, that isn’t what I’m being told now. IF I want/expect a happy relationship, it seems I AM at least on some level responsible for her moods, happiness, and feelings. Sure, I can go on doing whatever the hell I want and let her get mad, leave, or whatever, but that doesn’t seem to be the recipe for long term success. I know I can’t literally “make her happy”, but it seems like a lot of the things described here are simply ways of manipulating her to be “happy”, which… Read more »
Ted C wrote: … I need to start asking myself if I want the job at all. I’m good with having final say in big decisions, picking where we go to eat, or whatever. But I don’t know that I want to be responsible for another person’s mood, well being, and happiness for the rest of my life. I don’t have pets because I don’t want another being to take care of. You are a man-child, an overgrown boy, a discredit to my sex. Take your faux free-spirit faggotry elsewhere. We don’t get to choose our duties. We can only… Read more »
First of all, fuck you. You really don’t know shit about me, my sense of duty, or how seriously I take my responsibilities. All you know for sure is I’m completely clueless about women. It’s all fine and well for you to sit in judgement over me because I am stupid, but don’t ever assume that my ignorance makes me weak willed or irresponsible. All this bullshit I’m going through is BECAUSE I want to be a responsible mate for my SO. If I didn’t take this shit seriously I wouldn’t give a fuck, which strangely enough seems to be… Read more »
I’m not your dad, so you can save the teenage hysterics. And you can save the “You really don’t know shit about me” for the forums where people still believe in NAMALT and Precious Little Snowflakes. I really do know quite a bit about you because I know your type, but leave that aside. By asserting you break the mold and assuming certain moral physics don’t apply to you is one of the better indications that your predicament is as typical as I claimed it is. Further, I wasn’t referring to you as an emo pussy. I was saying your… Read more »
Stingray: “Even the most well grounded and mature woman will still look to a man for direction and emotional security. A man she can depend on to give her this is like air.” I was complaining about western women to a man that discovered the red pill by himself and is very wise with regards to anything related to gender relations and he said that one of the reasons the women are so hardened and bitchy and unfeminine is that there are so few men of the sort Stingray talks about in their lives that they are not just not… Read more »
Ted D: “If I was into BDSM, I would need my submissive’s consent before proceeding to “dominate” her, correct? If I’m going to socially “dominate” her (which is to say be “king of my castle” the way described here) should I not at least get some form of approval from her first? And, I would suspect if I asked the question, I would get a resounding NO (since I know my SO claims to want an egalitarian relationship) which would then mean that my taking the lead goes directly against her stated will, regardless of if it is the right… Read more »
Sexually I’m good. I would be lying if I didn’t admit that at first I was more than apprehensive about dominating in the bedroom, but her enthusiastic support got me past that pretty quickly. She takes direction well. The social stuff is just more deeply seeded in my head, coupled with the fact that I’m really just not very socially smart. I can appear to be socially adept, but it’s mostly me emulating expected behaviors. I don’t like “people” for the most part, and never put any effort into becoming a “people person”. I’ve had a talk or two early… Read more »
“This is the kind of stuff that starts harassment complaints. ”
Like, what? what exactly do you picture yourself saying or doing that will get you a complaint?
In my relationship? Nothing. But I just posted on the other thread that I’ve had a couple run-ins with HR in my past because I’m obviously mistaken that women can be reasonable and logical. If I spoke my mind about half of what I truly think, I’d never have another “career” position again. As far as what I might say? Well, I learned my lesson. Telling a female co-worker she is being an emotional twit is sexist. I didn’t know that before I was “re-educated”, I just assumed it meant I thought she was being an emotional twit. I had… Read more »
This is why real men are entrepreneurs, business owners, and independent contractors. I would last about ten seconds with some imperious “HR department” (which are notoriously staffed by women, correct? I am proud that I don’t even know…) before laughing at their absurd expectations. I cringe to even enter the post office or DMV. The nausea descends on me with the fluorescent glow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnLDMqPBeKQ I write the “harassment” policies in my office, and as for the cartoon code that petarded Clinton, all I can say is, come and get me, coppers. I insist that the girls who “work” for/with me… Read more »
King A – “This is why real men are entrepreneurs, business owners, and independent contractors” I was told growing up that I would never own a business, or be a CEO. I’m a bastard child of a first generation Polish immigrant that was P & D’d by a ‘cad’ and have been told my “lot in life” since i can remember. I’ve managed to hold down an IT career since 1994 (despite several early encounters with sexual harassment and HR) and get a college degree, which is a first for my family. I’m not trying to go all Maury on… Read more »
Just in here checking in on Rollo’s patient, Ted D. How you doing? Pill going down OK? Vitals good? Eyes open? Clear thinking? Insight good?
The patient is making good progress, but still requires some observation. We’ll keep the patient here for a couple of days. Dr. Tomassi would like his confidence/dominance levels and self-esteem levels taken every 8 hours. We’ll administer some further red pill in the morning, and discharge plan him in a few days with a prescription for reading up here and getting to the gym.
I’m hanging in there. Still somewhere between utter amazement and mild nausea, but it’ll pass. I’ve been walking daily for months and was actually down at the YMCA a week back picking up membership info. Confidence is holding, but I feel like a real schmuck right now, so don’t expect too much. Dominance is gonna take some time, but it helps for now to simply frame it as “don’t take any shit” and we’ll go from there. I need to re-frame all of my thinking, not just the stuff regarding relationships and women. In fact, my ‘frame’ in that respect… Read more »
Ted, I skimmed many of the recent comments…but here are some thoughts. Try to get out of your head so much. I’m an analytical type, but you are overanalyzing, overthinking, and seem to have a desire to want to oververbalize these things to your SO. Rollo has made an excellent point in the past about the tendency of beta guys to want to vomit everything out. You do NOT need to talk through every single detail with your SO about these dynamics. You just have to DO and take action and than observe the response, and course correct, and calibrate.… Read more »
Ted,
If you are joining the Y here are two invaluable sites:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/
http://www.t-nation.com/
Read, read, read, and then read some more. They are great places for information.
MikeC,
Very sincerely, thank you, Sir.
Mike C – “You do NOT need to talk through every single detail with your SO about these dynamics” Yeah, well, this comes from belief that we were supposed to be “equal” partners. By that I mean, I felt like I should tell her what’s going on with me and my thoughts, because my naive belief was that I owed it to her. Instead, what I’m figuring out is I should be thinking of her kinda like a kid at Disneyland. She doesn’t have any idea how the rides work, and she doesn’t want to know who the guy behind… Read more »
Here’s a copule more reading selections for you Ted:
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/11/14/appreciation/
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/01/13/just-be-yourself/
Fuck me sideways… OK. I can come here and discuss this forever, but the truth is I need to knock this shit out against someone. It’s how I think through stuff. NONE of my friends is even close to knowing anything at all about this stuff. They are musicians and IT people. The one friend I *think* could handle this the best (and probably use the knowledge) is on marriage number 3, but so far this one is holding. How do I get this in front of him? Honestly, if I send him here first, I think he will be… Read more »
Just in here checking in on Rollo’s patient, Ted D. How you doing? Too much support-circle vibe for Ted D. Changing your frame means stop looking back, stop lacerating yourself on memory, stop defeating yourself before you begin. This is a talking forum, but there is no talking cure. Women talk it out. Men pummel it out. There is no such thing as regret. Regret is living backward. Who cares about what happened before this moment? The only people who wistfully contemplate What Might Have Been are those who have decided their future will be defined by morose fatalism: There… Read more »
Ted, ON some level women experience you making (fairly good) decisions for her as love and as loving the true her because it shows that your attention is directed towards her to such and extent that you care to investigate what she really needs and by actually seeing something she really needs and deciding this for her you are showing that you know her and love her. Having to ask means you don`t pay enough attention and haven`t seen who she really is and so can not really love her because you don`t know her.
OK, this actually makes some sense to me, but it TRULY goes against everything that indicates a woman expects to be treated as a fully functioning autonomous adult. So is it reasonable to assume that every women, despite being a ball busting bitch in the office or not, WANTS to be “taken care of” by their man? Is this the dirty little secret that women are keeping hidden away? Because although what you posted makes sense, it is TOTALLY putting the responsibility of caring for her on my shoulders. I’m not even against that, but if that is going to… Read more »
despite being a ball busting bitch
The ball busting bitch most likely acts this way because there is no man in her life providing the strength and stability she needs.
“So is it reasonable to assume that every women, despite being a ball busting bitch in the office or not, WANTS to be “taken care of” by their man?” Yes. In all things. She wants you to break the ties, make the decisions, and direct the course of your lives together. That is on your shoulders. And therefore, you and your SO are not “equal partners”. You are dominant, she is submissive. Thing is, she has to agree to be submissive. There are things you can do to gently mold and press her into submission and enforce it (a little… Read more »
So is it reasonable to assume that every women, despite being a ball busting bitch in the office or not, WANTS to be “taken care of” by their man? Is this the dirty little secret that women are keeping hidden away?
Yes it is.
Ted: “Am I really over thinking this?”
I think so. You’re trying to reason out a bunch of stuff that doesn’t really need to be reasoned out, where you should be accepting and testing these principles, and then seeing where they lead in your own life. You have analysis paralysis.
It’s good you’re over here asking these questions to other men, rather than HUS.
“What do women want? Glamorous adventures without risk.”
Margarethe von Trotta, discussing character motivation within her 1981 film “The German Sisters”.
This is far more like work than a relationship to me… All my life I thought the “hard” work of a relationship was going to work, paying the bills, taking care of the yard and house, and “communicating” effectively. Compared to THIS, all that is a cakewalk. Well it’s painfully obvious why my marriage tanked. I don’t know that I want to jump through all these hoops simply to keep a woman in my life happy and content. It is asking me to take on a whole new level of responsibility for another person, yet no one ever ONCE clearly… Read more »
It’s not the relationship you’re working on, it’s yourself that you’re working on. You seem to have this idealized goal state in mind, to perfect the relationship.
This is how betas think – “what do I have to do to make the relationship great?”
For the Beta mindset the relationship is the focus, not themselves. A good relationship is just an incidental byproduct of an Alpha mindset. For almost 16 years I’ve been married, and in that time I have NEVER worked on my relationship. It’s good because it’s the result of my creating a better me.
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/rewriting-the-rules/
Ted,
By God, this.
Read it and read it again. Women want to be allowed to go along for the ride. Your ride. Your life. If you try to make us your life, then you’ve lost.
Well shit. I’m no longer a push over at home. I have taken control of my finances, am getting back into better shape (have a long way to go, but I’m at least half way there), I’m getting back into writing music and collaborating with old friends, and despite being set back with a divorce am managing to move on without much drama. I’ve been successfully running a MAP for months, and I’m feeling pretty good about the progress. And that is why things are going well in my relationship up to now? So “the relationship” doesn’t actually need much… Read more »
Ted, I just have to say it’s gratifying and educational watching you wash down the last of the honkin’ red pill you’ve been nursing for the past few months or so.
LOL don’t celebrate yet. I’m still choking on the bitch…
And she will be happy doing whatever it is *I* want regardless of her desires?
I think you will find that your desires become her desires, Ted.
Also, the only thing you can control is yourself. When you can do that, she will follow along as *you* are the only place she will want to be.
Ted, It feels tiresome now and it will feel tiresome for quite some time but that will/should eventually change. I had similar thoughts about this and when I asked the guy I see as my mentor in this, who has himself undergone a similar change, he said that it won`t be tiresome anymore once you have really changed and truly become that different man because it is not tiresome to be who you really are. And even though you are not that person today there is in your subconcious, in your nercous system in your hormonal makeup, a potential for… Read more »
I’m amd listening and reading this site with more and more understanding. I am kinda like Ted, slowly swallowing the RED pill, digesting and trying to make sense of it all. I am learning new things everyday, but sometimes I have to unplug to take it all in, otherwise it gets overwhealming. Anyway I enjoyed reading the post it has def been aN eye opening last 6 months since I started reading this awesome blog and just wanted to say thanks everyone for your excellent and well thought out posts. Now go grab your SO’s ass and give her a… Read more »
[…] reminds me of a comment I left on Rollo’s site, which he was kind enough to quote in his post 50 Shades of Twilight. Here is my take on what feral women want: I think there is another side to the same coin. These […]
Where do I start? Where do I start? I’m just gonna come out and say it here…I stumbled across this place…what’s it called manosphere? Yeah I’m gonna sound pathetic. Heck you’re all probably gonna think I’m too stupid to live. If this was Neanderthal age, i’d be the first to be crushed by a bloody massive mammoth. Why? Because I’ve come to a effing conclusion…Throughout school, I always wondered, why oh why were a certain select few reaping the benefits of mankind…going on dates, partying, drinking, going on dates, getting the chicks…conclusion most were alphas, jocks and modelly looking types,… Read more »
Regarding this book “50 shades of grey” The women definitely want this kind of sex but just not with their mediocre husbands and boyfriends. Women dont want these kind of sexual dynamics with a regular guy. There is nothing most men can do. Men are already uninhibited about sex. They are already willing to have more sex, with more partners in more ways. There is nothing men can do because women set different limits, terms and boundaries with different men. Women will never *let* most men go there. Women will never submit themselves to most men. Most men are simply… Read more »
Ted —— As an adult, my SO gets to decide if she wants my leadership or not. How can anyone with any bit of morality or even conscious simply decide for another adult what is best for them? —— An effective leader is one whom people DESIRE to follow. If people follow because they feel obligated, guilty or coereced, things won’t go well. It’s like the difference between busting ass for your boss at work because you like him and want him to look good for his boss…. or doing it because you hate the guy, but need a paycheck.… Read more »
[…] on the Tomassi scale. She’s not a stunner, but then, that’s why she’s the perfect Lego brick to play Bella; socccer moms and tweens can see past her as a place holder into which they can cast […]
Twilight was pretty bad — 50 Shades of Grey was even worse. Seems that, yes, all you need to do is insert a shell of a woman and a “DILDO”, as this blog post puts it (http://www.corporateincolorado.com/?p=125) and you’ve got a bestseller.
[…] drawn into casting themselves in the role of Steve’s Columbian target (not unlike the Twilight Dynamic). For blue-pills and white knights, it’s easily dismissed as some girl who “has no […]
[…] and her offspring. Women will mitigate this arousal-attraction imbalance with their own forms of pornography or self-initialized rationalization about their ‘deeper maturity’, but in essence the […]
LOL
Wake up,Ted D
The Matrix has you . . .
[…] Dalrock delivered this fantastic comment in one of my threads years ago, but I’m reminded of it now: […]
[…] was originally a comment I left at Rollo’s blog back in April of 2012. Shortly after that, Rollo and I both included it in separate […]
Males understand reality. Women can never accept the premise of 50 Shades of Twilight, eternally growing into adulthood from a child.