50 Shades of Twilight

Since 50 Shades of Grey is essentially the same plot formula as Twilight, feel free to insert the relevant protagonists’ names for Bella and Edward here.

I’ve had a lot of PMs asking me for some input regarding the runaway popularity of the B-Grade fan porn that is 50 Shade of Grey. Vox had a brief spot about it in relation to how men can’t win for losing in girl-world. Aunt Giggles had an interesting run down of its popularity, but predictably eels her way around the operative point of how semi-violent romance porn affirms the uglier truths of Game and hypergamy – not to mention avoiding the sticky aspect of ‘committed’ women fantasizing about it.

I honestly haven’t given the book too much headspace since it only reaffirms what the manosphere has been professing for over a decade now: in spite of all protestations of the opposite, women get off on dominance. Big shock, I know. It’s ironic that The Chateau should need to cite psych study upon psych study, ad infinitum for 6 years to reinforce a dynamic that women will now gleefully admit to only after a cheap, fanfiction sub-porn hack calls them blushingly out to the carpet on it.

If this book represents any significant turning point it will be its role in provably, viscerally, forcing women to acknowledge their own bullshit. I can hardly wait for the girl-world collective mental twistings in the wind – the desperate whir of millions of rationalization hamsters grasping for a plausible deniability or a freshly minted social convention (male shaming for bringing women to men’s porn mentality) that will excuse them from the guilt of an inconvenient truth. Perhaps the NAWALT trope, that one’s always the Swiss army knife for the feminine cause. Really anything that will put the Hypergamy Genie back in the bottle and keep the questioning Betas from getting too curious about feminine nature will do.

In the Bitter Taste of the Red Pill comments, esteemed colleague Dalrock had a timely and profound post that fits this porn-dominance formula perfectly:

These women don’t just want to build a better beta, they want to tame the alpha. In fact, I think the former is just another way they are trying to approach the latter. They want to take an inherrently unsafe activity and make it safe. They want to submit to a man without having to submit; they want a man who can tame their feral self. They want him to trip their danger signals. Even better if he is a stranger from a strange land.

They wan’t this all to happen without giving up their freedom; they want to play this out in the context of serial monogamy, so they can feel loved while also claiming their promiscuity is moral. They want to lose controll to a string of strangers who have all of the hallmarks of very dangerous men, and they want a promise that this will always end well.

They want to know that this will be safe, without it losing the excitement of it feeling unsafe. They are telling men to build a sort of serial monogamy amusement park where they can ride the roller coaster and experience the fear of falling or crashing, while knowing that just behind the scenes grown ups are actually in charge and are responsible for them safely feeling unsafe.

One more thing. As I mentioned above they don’t want to be hemmed in. So instead of building an actuall amusement park, they want roller coasters to spring up randomly in the same exact circumstances where the real danger they mimik would appear. They want to be driving their car on the freeway one instant, and the next experience the fear of careening out of controll the next. They want to impulsively jump off the edge of the Grand Canyon and have a parachute appear and deploy at the last minute. And all they ask is your guarantee that all of this will be safe.

Behold, the female porn dynamic perfected. Danger without danger, bad boy with a heart of gold, a guy who wont cheat, but could cheat,..

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

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YOHAMI
Guest

Also applies to The Hunger Games

Dalrock
Guest

Thanks for the kind words Rollo.

Don’t forget Bill Bennet’s predictable take, which is that women writing, buying, and reading books like 50 shades of grey proves that men are bad.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Vox did a pretty good breakdown of that already. Linked.

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Same formula, but Hunger Games was a snuff film for tweens – BONUS!

Running Man meets Lord of the Flies, peppered with a bit of Spy Kids.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Also, insert rape fantasies into this same mold as well.

deti
Guest
deti

“These women don’t just want to build a better beta, they want to tame the alpha. In fact, I think the former is just another way they are trying to approach the latter. They want to take an inherrently unsafe activity and make it safe. They want to submit to a man without having to submit; they want a man who can tame their feral self. **** And all they ask is your guarantee that all of this will be safe.” FIrst they want to make the beta more alpha. But the ultimate fantasy is to make the alpha more… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

I dont know. I used to think girls fell in love with the “positive” aspects of the wolf. Now Im starting to think Im projecting there, and that it’s me, seeing the positive aspects of the wolf, or, the “beta in the alpha”, so I can rationalize the whole thing. It makes more sense that girls want the wolf for the wolf. Forget about the sanitizing stuff. Maybe they just want the danger, negative emotions included. None of the “taming” the alpha, but “owning” the alpha, which is different. If you own a dangerous wolf, then you own a dangerous… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

If Im right, then women want to “own” men including betas and do as they please with them. The security and safety dont come from they taming or changing the alphas, but from the owning / control perspective. The carousel feels “safe” when women can decide when and how stuff ends and starts and how long it lasts and who pay. It doesnt require alphas to be “tamed” or whatever. All it needs is that women own the circus, and it becomes “safe”

YOHAMI
Guest

* “own” men including alphas

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

One interesting aspect of this story formula is the necessity women feel in adding a more overtly sexual element to what’s really tripping their emotional response to the narrative.

It’s not enough to just have the Alpha wolf love and cherish the Lego brick, women will take up new careers as fiction writers (albeit unoriginal writers) in order to put a more satisfying visceral sexual element into that story if it’s not present, or well represented enough, and in their ideal terms.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Yohami, I don’t know. I will only give you my own perspective here, but I suspect that it goes the same for other women. I don’t want to own my husband. On the contrary, I like the feel of him, sort of owning me. He likes to call me “woman” as in “woman, make me a sandwich”. Now, he says it with a twinkly in his eye, only half joking. I LOVE it. It makes me feel like I am his. That I am his chosen one, as it were. I have no interest in owning him, because if I… Read more »

AverageMarriedGuy
Guest

Great post, my wife is currently reading this series and despite the drivel that is spewed within (weak writing, unrealistic plot, disjointed sex “scenes” based on my quick skimming over some of the first book) she has been titillated. I’d say this suburban mom support for this type of book supports hypergamy and the dominant male, alpha-types that they don’t see in their partners. For me personally as I work to up my Alpha in the MMSL sense, I’m hoping to jump on the train and open up some new possibilities in the bedroom.

YOHAMI
Guest

Stingray. He owning you can make you feel safe, he owns you, you submit and surrender etc.

How does that reconcile / cohexist with nagging, for example, or manipulating the guy so he does what you want? not talking about you specifically though.

Or, if you dont own him, the alpha, how come he’s not banging every other girl around you?

"M"
Guest
"M"

It makes more sense that girls want the wolf for the wolf.

Little Red Riding Hood has long been considered more of a metaphor than just a simple fairy tale.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Bear with me. I can’t answer these questions without it sounding like I am blowing up my own skirt. I’m not attempting to do that. I am just trying to answer your questions. How does that reconcile / cohexist with nagging, for example, or manipulating the guy so he does what you want? I don’t nag. Been there/tried that. It’s useless and pointless. Me: Hubby, I have asked you to do X. Why haven’t you done it yet? Husband: If you stop nagging, I just might get to it. Me: I would stop nagging if you just got it done.… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Yohami,

Rollo could probably shed more light on that second question. He’s been married for 16 years, if I recall correctly. Never strayed. I gave you my side, he could better give the man’s.

mikec74
Guest
mikec74

but predictably eels her way around the operative point of how semi-violent romance porn affirms the uglier truths of Game and hypergamy – not to mention avoiding the sticky aspect of ‘committed’ women fantasizing about it. I read many of the comments, and I continue to be surprised at the step-by-step regression to a more “blue-pill” outlook on all things related to gender dynamics and female sexuality. One comment in particular literally shocked me (I’ll try to dig it up later) but amounted to “Hey, Beta Nice guy, don’t worry one bit about what this book says, IT”S JUST FANTASY,… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

Stingray, Yes, that’s what I said Im not talking about you specifically. Trying to figure out females in general. I dont know if you’re the demographic ( did you devour 50 shades of gray and twilight?) But since you brought it up: “I don’t nag. Been there/tried that.” Aight, but why did you try to begin with? how do you reconcile having attempted to have him do what you want, with your claim that you dont want to own him? Owing also means “having the sole rights to” “He gets hit on all the time. He could if he wanted… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Heh, sorry. Thought you were sparing my feelings (solipsism wins again! Hate it). Aside from that, I feel somewhat safe giving my personal impressions as they are just like most other women’s. I don’t think my impressions would be that far off from most of them. Aight, but why did you try to begin with? how do you reconcile having attempted to have him do what you want, with your claim that you dont want to own him? I tried it to begin with because I thought that was how it was supposed to be done. Call it a shit… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

Very interesting.

“To own a man is to resent him”

Start a blog, that’s your headline.

“I never gave him permission to sleep with other women”

The language betrays something. How can you give permission or not to something you dont own?

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Ha! I was sitting here thinking and I new you were going to ask this: How can you give permission or not to something you dont own? I have been thinking about my response. I was responding to your use of the word “can” in your original question. Reading it, I took your surprise to mean that this was something we had discussed in our marriage and I was ok with it. Therefore, me being ok with it was somehow giving permission. No, it’s not like that. Out of respect for me and our marriage my husband will come to… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Dammit, “knew”.

YOHAMI
Guest

Stingray, So damn interesting. “While I really don’t want the power in our relationship there are situations that arise that my hindbrain tells me to take advantage of, because if I did I might just be able to shift the power dynamic to myself.” I know the community wants to call these female hindbrain power pushes “hit tests”. I´ll call them what they are, reptilian hindbrain power pushes. Real attempts to gain power. Men have them too. The difference is we men dont get all unaroused / dont resent the situation when we get the power. We resent it when… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Yohami,

This may take some time and more than one comment. Kids are busy today and this is one thing I have to think about in quiet to be able to answer you well. Please bear with me. Also, due to the conflicting feelings in women we are talking about, I may get it wrong and have to back track some. You asking specific questions will help me to not do that. Anyway, bear with me. I will answer the everything as soon as I can.

itsme
Guest
itsme

plausible deniability – one of the most useful tools in a woman’s repertoire.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

First, let’s start with this: Real attempts to gain power. Men have them too. The difference is we men dont get all unaroused / dont resent the situation when we get the power. and But it’s not a test, it’s you, your hindbrain, craving some power. So. I am not sure that it is actually craving power so much as it is wanting to make sure that the man still maintains the power. If a man can stand up to the woman he loves, she can rest assured that he will stand up to anyone else. However, where there is… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

When you win a power play, you resent it. Still, you want power / control over him fucking other girls or not. Do you resent him for not fucking other girls? No, I do not resent him for not fucking other girls as I did not demand this power over him. I might be able to argue that our marriage demands it, but I know the reality is that this is a decision that he has made for himself. He is being faithful because that is what he wants. Of course he is attracted to other women, but out of… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

You just summed up the reason why it is all but impossible to have a relationship with most women these days. Their instincts are pushing them one way and society is pushing them in the opposite direction. For a woman to be fulfilled she must submit to someone who is more dominant, but society tells her that’s “weak” which she equates with “bad” so she fights it. The end result is that no one is happy. Women who become more dominant require men who are more dominant still.The shit tests become stronger. Women these days complain that there are no… Read more »

dragnet
Guest
dragnet

Reading the reviews of 50 Shades on Amazon will tell you everything you need to know. What’s especially hilarious & telling are the 1-star reviews—a fair number of them are complaining that the guy in the story wasn’t dominant/violent/sexy/alpha enough.

Manginas wept.

Kuraje
Guest
Kuraje

There are things that come with wolves:
http://qkme.me/y4o

Nutz
Guest
Nutz

“If this book represents any significant turning point it will be its role in provably, viscerally, forcing women to acknowledge their own bullshit.”

You’d think that was the case, but I doubt anything will come of it. Those that are Game-savvy already know what you speak of because of Nancy Friday’s book My Secret Garden which was released almost 40 years ago! What’s happening with 50 Shades is EXACTLY the same sentiments that were brought to light with Garden all those years ago, so why would anything change now?

Nutz
Guest
Nutz

Hence the manosphere maxim: ALWAYS judge women by their actions, not their words.

Nutz
Guest
Nutz

“Women who become more dominant require men who are more dominant still.The shit tests become stronger. Women these days complain that there are no good men. Well, we only have so much energy to devote to bullshit so if you push and push and push sometimes it is just easier for us to walk away and do other things.”

You just described feminism in a nutshell. It was a shit test women collectively gave to society as a whole. Society failed.

Flahute
Guest
Flahute

This is what I was thinking too. I don’t know how popular The Secret Garden was or how it compares to 50 Shades’ popularity, but the only thing it will force is another round of rationalization.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Yohami,

I knew I missed something. You asked if I devoured 50 Shades of Grey and Twilight.

I did not. I have zero interest in either one. That is not to say I haven’t read any female “romance” (Heh, right) novels, though.

djPacMan
Guest
djPacMan

Has ANYONE ever jumped off the Grand Canyon? Sounds like something moralistic nice guys would NOT do. Here I go…

Wudang
Guest
Wudang

WHat I find most interesting about the comments women are making about this is the following slip up. They suddenly think it is sort of ok to admit they do like the alpha badboy as long as he is (only) nice to her. The fact that he is nice to her supposedly makes it alright and moral to want such a guy. But when they say it is not only ok but important that he remain hard and cold towards everyone else they admit they want an immoral man who behaves immoraly to everyone else than her. I don`t think… Read more »

Wudang
Guest
Wudang

Romance novels goes too far in terms of betaization. They end with the alpha behaving beta towards her and so people asume and some women argue that is what women want. But had the books had a couple of more chapters the alpha would have become boring to her and she would have lost attraction. Women don`t want the control the woman in the romance novels get in the end. They still do want the men to be nice to them but not in the way the romance novels portray. Women still DO want the alpha to be nice to… Read more »

LP 999
Guest
LP 999

Ugh, more emo porn. It is everywhere Lifetime, E! and chich flicks aren’t enough. But wait! There is always more boring emo porn!

Wudang
Guest
Wudang

Your comments are very interesting Stingray. “having a man who won’t allow that power grab can be even more validating if we can show that off. The women friends will be jealous that we have that.” I have been thinking lately that one of the most cruel and effective and impossible to spot ways a woman can hurt/get back at another woman is to let that other women she her be very submissive and respectfull to her boyfriend. Even though they won`t quite understand why and might at the same time resent what they are seeing on some level I… Read more »

TheSolomonPress.com
Guest

Women who simultaneously try to control men and want to be dominated by men… all line up with the Curse of Eve. I don’t get overly frustrated with women who exhibit this (all of them), it is in their wiring. Don’t get mad at a fish for swimming. It is indeed frustrating that it is such an obvious fact, and yet women go around trying to deny it anyway. Of course they don’t want to tip their hand. Fortunately, thanks to books like 50 Shades, they will not be able to deny it much longer, which will help the red… Read more »

itsme
Guest
itsme

Fortunately, thanks to books like 50 Shades, they will not be able to deny it much longer,

yes, they can deny it. they’ll simply say that the book is merely fiction, ‘just a fantasy’.

never underestimate the power of the hamster.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Heh, NARNALT. I haven’t read any harlequin romance, but I am pretty sure these stick with the basic noble hero who could never, ever fall in love falling for the special everywoman snowflake. I’m embarrassed to talk about it because I know how stupid they are, but the ones I have read and enjoyed are the noble man incapable of love because of depression, brooding, etc, found Miss Perfect, dominated her and they lived happily ever after (Often times making it perfectly clear that for whatever reason he would continue to be dominate.) I think this idea of the anti-hero… Read more »

Thanatosis (@lmMirin)
Guest

“Sociopath” is not a behavior it is a psychological affliction.

“Respect” “Asshole” yada yada you’re still in conflict.

Accept that women want something you personally don’t believe should be desired.

Feel free to not like the “disrespectful, mean, asshole” Just know that women will like him regardless of your opinion.

gritartisan
Guest

Solomon Press: in other words, that’s the beaten-dead-horse trope “Why don’t men just man up?” It has do do with what Stingray said here: “Something else that makes all of this even more confusing is that in this jealousy the women friends may come down on the wife calling her submissive and not empowered. It’s crap, but when that herd mentality comes in, these words can be incredibly hurtful. The man must back her up in these situations and reassure his wife that she is in the right. More validation.” Why not man up? Because to do so means you… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

I guess a woman could use that as revenge. It would be incredibly easy, though, for the friend to turn that around using the weak and subordinate argument. I think it would much depend on the friend. I think most women truly do want this, but when they can’t have it, it is VERY easy to fool oneself into being content with what they have, at least for a time. I am pretty sure part of the hamsters job is self preservation. I gotta say though, and maybe I am over thinking it, any woman who consciously uses her man… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Who is on the guy’s side? You are. Past tense, here. The more shit tests you pass, the far fewer you will see. I don’t *want* to shit test my husband. When I feel the urge to do it (which is very rare) I squash it. I don’t expect my husband to defend our relationship against feminism, I expect him to have my back. It’s my job to defend the relationship and myself against feminism. As far as my friends, personally, I don’t have female friends. I don’t get along with women very well. They don’t like me much. But… Read more »

Thanatosis (@lmMirin)
Guest

“Civilization is unnatural of course some pretty intrusive things would have to be done to maintain it.”

The appeal to the herd argument is relatively weak. Don’t Man Up because it will cause a person to be lonely?

If you’re pretending to be someone else to gain others acceptance you will be lonely regardless. There really is no difference.

Unless playing charades with people who would detest you if they really knew your true beliefs gives a sense of community.

King A (Matthew King)
Guest

Stingray is next-generation woman, ahead of her time. After the sturm und drang of our anomalous era passes, all women will be on a path to where she already is. Stingray, consider writing in a more formal way. You are in possession of an important piece of the puzzle that needs to be articulated consistently and regularly. This community should have its own “NRO Corner.” The individual sites are too personalized and inconsistent, and the aggregator/gateways are poorly edited. The leading writers in this web consortium should arrange a gang-blog so that we don’t have to keep piecing together the… Read more »

YaReally
Guest
YaReally

Thanks to this book it looks like it’s time to approach cougars, MILFs, and married chicks with really sexually dominant direct game!

…no wait that’s always worked.

TheSolomonPress.com
Guest

@gritartisan My version of “Man Up” is different than the feminist Pastors. Mine is more like “Rise up and subjugate women thoroughly”. I don’t think women should have the right to vote. I am all for Patriarchy (which, BTW, is an acceptable setting for men to ‘man up’ because they are in charge). The “man up” cry you hear in churches would be more correctly translated as “lay down” Your assertion that its “too much trouble” and to fight against feminism is to be very alone… well that is just wussbag thinking. I am a Dominant (in the BDSM sense)… Read more »

TheSolomonPress.com
Guest

Link me, Rollo

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

Speaking of chicks digging dominance, I had to drop some dominance game on a chick I am seeing. She just got out of a relationship and is in the stage where she is doing something 7 days a week so I don’t see her often. Recognized it for what it was early on and sat back and didn’t put much effort into it. Of course this works like a charm to get her coming back for more. After some BS small talk via text the other day she says “I’m actually still kinda busy but when are we going to… Read more »

LionSoul
Guest
LionSoul

I noticed this dynamic when I wrote side stories for a couple of movies on fanfiction. A lot of women read them and always commented positively to my male protagonists–which I based their personalities on heavy and dark, alpha characteristics. They always say things like: he’s just misunderstood or I like how you make him so decisive. I even made a graphic scene where he ‘took’ a woman, making her his wife by killing her husband in battle. Yet, instead of saying how horrible it was that her husband was slaughtered… they applauded the hot ‘sex scene'(more like rape)… Boy… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

May I be Derb? 😉

LionSoul
Guest
LionSoul

I understand what you are saying here. That’s why being calm and assertive always helps my LTRs. We need to be that anchor; that’s why we are the men. It’s part of that ‘dominance’ aspect. The man must know how to calm, inform, and direct his woman in a confident manner–makes her feel safe following him.

That’s why the man leads in dancing. The female can’t help but look up to him(boyfriend) for comfort. It’s in her programming. She wants to feel secure THROUGH him.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

In all seriousness, thank you. A “Corner” blog could be very interesting, though I sense some danger in it. Can’t quite put my finger on it. There are a lot of VERY strong personalities in these parts. Would make for interesting debate, though.

mikec74
Guest
mikec74

Stingray is next-generation woman, ahead of her time. After the sturm und drang of our anomalous era passes, all women will be on a path to where she already is Absolutely. There is a blogger Olive kind of doing the same thing, and there was one discussion on HUS where she got smacked down hard for some of the ideas and notions she was putting out there that related to female introspection and what WOMEN SHOULD DO differently. Its way too early in game for the message and thought process someone like Stingray has to even be close to mainstream.… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Mike, I read very few of the comments there. Out of curiosity, what did she have to say and what was the general response? Good for her. I think she is quite young, too. It takes a lot of courage to say this stuff there, especially for a woman. I tend to temper (heh, Matt King, yes . . . temper) my thoughts when I post at HUS as I know that if I were completely blunt they would be outright rejected. I hope she took it well and stuck to her guns. Also, thank you, as well. I hope… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Absolutely.

I’ve said before, nothing calms the hamster like a strong dependable man.

mikec74
Guest
mikec74

Stingray, here is an example of her thoughts: http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com/2012/03/experiment.html The problem with being feisty in a relationship is that it has the potential to create power struggles. Feisty can become aggressive, and aggressive women are not attractive and don’t handle relationships well. For these women, it is important to step back, especially if they do want their men to lead. My boyfriend, by nature, is a very laid back guy. That said, he absolutely hates when people try to control him, so in stepping back, I’m allowing him to be himself. Anyways, there was a quite contentious discussion….Yohami knows what… Read more »

mikec74
Guest
mikec74

It takes a lot of courage to say this stuff there, especially for a woman. FWIW, I imagine this must be difficult. Everything I’ve read and studied seems to suggest women feel social ostracization orders of magnitude higher than most men. I’ve got to imagine this makes discussing substantive issues difficult where this is going to be immense social pressure to “fall in line” with whatever the majority of view. I suspect it takes enormous fortitude as a woman to stay totally independent of what other women are saying. On that note, I always respected and admired Elisabeth Hasselbeck to… Read more »

xsplat
Guest

“I´ll call them what they are, reptilian hindbrain power pushes. Real attempts to gain power. ” Exactly. I’ve always said that it’s a functionally accurate description to talk of shit tests, but it’s not a wholly accurate description. Women really actually do want the power. They are not merely testing the man. It’s more than just a test – it’s a genuine power grab. And incidental to that is a general loss of attraction for the guy if she gets power. I think it’s important to know that. Functionally, as a beginner, all you need to know is the shorthand… Read more »

Anon
Guest
Anon

I’m sure you’ll enjoy this, Rollo. 😉
http://das-sporking.livejournal.com/242338.html

King A (Matthew King)
Guest

NRO’s The Corner is not the best example (especially given l’affaire Derbyshire), but it is a successful gang-blog, the only one I know of and read. Gang blogs require management and an agreement to be loosely corralled by editorial guidance, which is why it hasn’t happened in this community and maybe never will: the pretensions to independence are an article of faith that drives bloggers to blog in the first place. A certain frame of mind regards editorial management as censorship, hence the exaggerated howling about Derb’s firing. (Which is ironic, given that his gang-blog “SecularRight.org” has erased my comments… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

Stingray – “Absolutely. I’ve said before, nothing calms the hamster like a strong dependable man.” Is this true in most cases? I’ve been accused of being too clinical and not emotional enough in the past so I have learned to “react” to some of my SOs “crises” moments and honestly the results are less than stellar. Although she gets irritated when I don’t react, those instances generally go better, or at least conclude with far less drama. My preference is to stay cool, but I feel like I’m expected to get pulled into the chaos instead of riding it out… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Ted, from the 16 Commandments: IV. Don’t play by her rules If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man. Polarity is the core of a healthy loving relationship. She does not want the prerogative to walk all over you with her capricious demands and mercurial moods. Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

Rollo – “Ted, from the 16 Commandments: IV. Don’t play by her rules” Yeah somewhere in my brain I know this. I still struggle with the concept of trusting that *I* know better what my SO needs that she does. It just strikes me as being very egotistical. I can’t help feeling like I’m breaking some rule of “humanity” by assuming I know best. Although, I don’t have that problem with my children, because I assume they don’t have enough experience to make those kinds of decisions for themselves. Treating an adult like one of my children just seems very… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

There are two kinds of people who believe in equalism, those who want to use it for control, and those who are uncomfortable with the responsibility that comes from being in a position of authority.

You can still be an authority and be a ‘good’ person. Equalism tricks you by conflating authority with a desire for power.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Treating an adult like one of my children just seems very demeaning. If an adult is behaving like a child then . . . It’s not egotistical to stand firm and do what you know is right. It’s not about giving her what she wants rather giving her what she needs. The two are often completely opposite. A woman is a ball of feelings at any given moment. A woman who is upset is an enormous ball of conflicting feelings that are nearly impossible to tease apart and figure out. What can tease them apart better than anything else is… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

That 16th Commandment is quite beautiful.

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

I can see that. I fall into the second category. I am very uncomfortable being responsible for other people, because ultimately I can’t control what they think or do. And if they fail while I am responsible, that means I failed as well, which puts my success in the hands of another person. Again excluding my children. But I see it as my responsibility to be in authority over them until they are an adult, so I don’t feel any conflict about it. However, I do personally feel responsible every time they fail at something, but do my best not… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

Ted, I know it is hard to wrap your head around the idea that women are somewhere between men and children when it comes to knowing what is best for them but it’s true. The only reason you continue to hold on to these flawed beliefs is because your logical man-brain has a hard time reconciling the disconnect between words and actions. When you begin to base your beliefs and decisions on the outcomes that you see around you rather than what women and society in general tells you that you SHOULD be believing and doing you will go from… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

“It’s not egotistical to stand firm and do what you know is right. It’s not about giving her what she wants rather giving her what she needs. The two are often completely opposite” I understand that, but it still takes the responsibility from HER and puts in on MY shoulders. Why should I have to determine what is best for her, isn’t that her job? Further, I would be pretty pissed if someone acted the same towards me. I am perfectly capable of deciding what I need for myself, and if I’m not, let me fail on my own terms.… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

GLC – “When you begin to base your beliefs and decisions on the outcomes that you see around you rather than what women and society in general tells you that you SHOULD be believing and doing you will go from being a servant to society to being a master of reality.” I’m starting to understand this, but it still feels an awful lot like “the ends justifies the means” in that you are basing decisions on how you want things to end instead of on what may or may not be “right”. Here is one of my issues letting this… Read more »

DicTater
Guest
DicTater

I was looking for a new elite men’s world. So, instead of talking I went to a foreign land, but their laws sounded like it was named after a woman and there was still females and girlie-men there too. I heard I was omega so I pretended to be a super-tough guy until I was told I had insecure little omega man syndrome. Twilight was when the beta vamp hiding behind a curtain said bring your sons and daughters to my castle dungeon for me to smear 50 shades of shtt in theirs and your faces, then with bloody eyes… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Winner.

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

There is a middle ground. You don’t have to choose between being a sociopath or a lap dog. You don’t have to completely throw away your morals. You just have to recognize when you aren’t getting a fair deal.

Höllenhund
Guest
Höllenhund

Who gets to decide what’s a fair deal and what isn’t? What you’re advocating seems like the same chaos that Ted warns you about.

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

Stingray – “A woman is a ball of feelings at any given moment. A woman who is upset is an enormous ball of conflicting feelings that are nearly impossible to tease apart and figure out.” I also wanted to comment on this and forgot. Why is it MY issue to resolve her emotional turmoil? Wouldn’t a responsible adult realize they were an emotional wreck and do something about it themselves? I’m all for being supportive, but being the “rock” to tease apart her ball of emotions sounds like a co-dependency issue more than a healthy relationship. Where is is HER… Read more »

YOHAMI
Guest

Me.

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

The trick is figuring out what is or is not a fair deal. I mean, If I base that solely on what *I* want, it probably wont be fair for anyone else.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Because most of us can’t do that without a strong man t show us how. Holy Hell Ted. You are still stuck in this place where men and women are alike. We. Are. Not. Most women don’t even realize that they are a ball of emotions. Bottom line: It’s not your issue to resolve anything at all. I am not saying you have to micromanage her whole life. I am saying you are the calm, the consistency. You don’t need to make her decisions for her. You be there for her to hang onto when she loses her way. Just… Read more »

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

You still believe that women are independent, rational agents, self-aware and in control of their emotionality. Yet another result of an equalist mindset.

Ted, what you’re frustrated with is why a woman can’t behave as a man. The equalist names her “responsible adult” because it doesn’t want to offend the sensibilities of blank slate ideology.

She looks to a man for stability because she is a woman, not a responsible adult. Even the most well grounded and mature woman will still look to a man for direction and emotional security.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Even the most well grounded and mature woman will still look to a man for direction and emotional security.

A man she can depend on to give her this is like air.

Flahute
Guest
Flahute

Ted, please stop worrying about being fair. Who told you life is (or should be) fair? Equalists, socialists? Brainwash, hogwash.

I think GLC was saying that you should question and suspend your belief in what you’ve been told by women and society. Instead base your beliefs on your first-hand experiences. Look at your immediate surroundings, peoples’ behaviors, and the results of your actions. Trust yourself to fathom the truth and make good decisions based on what you see, not what you have been told.

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

Stingray – ” Most women are never going to realize they even have problems in this to own until they meet a man who is strong enough and willing to show her what they are. It is 99% unconscious.” Thank you. I’ve been asking this general question for some time and you are the first woman to give me a straight answer. I realize women and men are different, but it seems my mistake was believing that everyone should be introspective enough to realize at least some of this on thier own. In this light, it really is very similar… Read more »

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

I can handle that but I’m hoping that this also implies that she will at some point figure out how to deal with this on her own? Even a little? This is a more difficult question to answer because it depends on the girl. I believe the potential is always there, yes. Your strength should begin to feed into her and strengthen her. She will still need to lean but hopefully not as hard or as often. If she lets herself this can happen. I don’t believe that all women let themselves learn this though. Some believe that depending on… Read more »

King A (Matthew King)
Guest

Ted D wrote: “I understand that, but it still takes the responsibility from HER and puts in on MY shoulders. Why should I have to determine what is best for her, isn’t that her job?” Ted, brother, it most emphatically is not her job. It is your responsibility. Now, being “king of your own castle” sounds like it’s all fun and games and capricious assertions of strength, and it is against this immature understanding of power that feminism revolted. Less appreciated is the responsibility: “Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown.” So while feminists think they want the crown,… Read more »

Philalethes
Guest
Philalethes

“…forcing women to acknowledge their own bullshit.”

Just a minor note on terminology: here I prefer the term “cowshit”. That’s what it is, after all; let’s give credit where it’s due. The male is not responsible for the female hamster’s manure production.

bob
Guest

I will risk ridicule here, and say that the reason that Stingray’s man controls their relationship is, at least in part, because he controls himself. A part of that is not banging other girls just because he can.

Also, even though he’s in charge, I think he must respect her; at least he respects the relationship.

Stingray
Guest
Stingray

Yep. He read this comment section the other day and said something along the lines of “I lead myself where I want. If I wanted to sleep with other girls I simply would.” End of story, really. The rest of what I wrote above might have a little to do with it, but it is minute and is likely hamster spinning on my part.

Epicurean
Guest
Epicurean

Actually, Ted, I think you’ve stumbled upon the meta-ethical problem known as the is-ought problem (look it up on wikipedia). As you pointed out it does go a bit beyond gender relations.

It basically boils down to not being able to easily say what ought to be from what is. There isn’t much of a disagreement (among the manosphere) about what IS. But can you really say what OUGHT to be from the reality?

Rollo Tomassi
Guest

Rollo – I get it, but I wanted to hear it from a woman.No disrespect, but hearing a bunch of men say what a woman needs just doesn’t seem legit,..

This is how I know you’re still plugged into the Matrix. Your default authority is still what women tell you.

Read this:
http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/12/07/the-horses-mouth/

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

It isn’t often talked about in these spheres but the counterpart to equalism being BS is that not every man can be an “alpha”. The world needs beta males. And there is nothing wrong with being one. Most guys fall into that category. Maybe you don’t have the temperament to step into the role of being responsible for other, and that’s fine. Just remember though, this isn’t a black or white thing and the further you fall toward the “work my ass off for everyone else’s benefit” side, the more you are going to get stuck doing shit for everyone… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

I understand that, but it still takes the responsibility from HER and puts in on MY shoulders. Why should I have to determine what is best for her, isn’t that her job? Most girls I date tend to weigh between 100-110lbs. I am just over 200. I could crush these girl’s heads with my right bicep. The fact that men are bigger, stronger and better able to solve problems means that a woman’s natural role is to submit to a man. I know that things have changed a lot over the past couple of hundred years but trust me, evolution… Read more »

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

Rollo – I get it, but I wanted to hear it from a woman. No disrespect, but hearing a bunch of men say what a woman needs just doesn’t seem legit, no more than a woman telling men how game should work.

Ted, man…….how long have you been around this stuff?

The first thing you learn when your eyes start to open is to avoid listening to what women say. Like, literally, if you can’t grasp this one very simple principle you might as well just hang it up cause this is what polluted your mind in the first place.

Good Luck Chuck
Guest
Good Luck Chuck

Now, being “king of your own castle” sounds like it’s all fun and games and capricious assertions of strength, and it is against this immature understanding of power that feminism revolted.

Well said, sir.

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

GLC – I’ve been around the ‘sphere for about a year, give or take a bit, but most of that time has been spent at MMSL and HUS. I made the rounds to other PUA related sites, but frankly the undercurrent of anger at most of them turned me off and I rarely read any of them. I have been coming here from time to time, and BadgerHut as well. And I completely get that what women say and what they want/need is different, but I cannot in any kind of good faith simply decide to do what is best… Read more »

Ted D
Guest
Ted D

All that may be true, but the law doesn’t see things in terms of “natural order”. It may be that men should “lead” and women should “follow”, but unless you know some trick I don’t see how we can ever get that concusses to fly. Perhaps there is a chance on the individual level, if every man starts his relationships with something like “if you are going to be with me, then you will be following my lead. If you are not happy with that, please say so now and I’ll move on.” IF every women didn’t run for the… Read more »

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