50 Shades of Twilight

Since 50 Shades of Grey is essentially the same plot formula as Twilight, feel free to insert the relevant protagonists’ names for Bella and Edward here.

I’ve had a lot of PMs asking me for some input regarding the runaway popularity of the B-Grade fan porn that is 50 Shade of Grey. Vox had a brief spot about it in relation to how men can’t win for losing in girl-world. Aunt Giggles had an interesting run down of its popularity, but predictably eels her way around the operative point of how semi-violent romance porn affirms the uglier truths of Game and hypergamy – not to mention avoiding the sticky aspect of ‘committed’ women fantasizing about it.

I honestly haven’t given the book too much headspace since it only reaffirms what the manosphere has been professing for over a decade now: in spite of all protestations of the opposite, women get off on dominance. Big shock, I know. It’s ironic that The Chateau should need to cite psych study upon psych study, ad infinitum for 6 years to reinforce a dynamic that women will now gleefully admit to only after a cheap, fanfiction sub-porn hack calls them blushingly out to the carpet on it.

If this book represents any significant turning point it will be its role in provably, viscerally, forcing women to acknowledge their own bullshit. I can hardly wait for the girl-world collective mental twistings in the wind – the desperate whir of millions of rationalization hamsters grasping for a plausible deniability or a freshly minted social convention (male shaming for bringing women to men’s porn mentality) that will excuse them from the guilt of an inconvenient truth. Perhaps the NAWALT trope, that one’s always the Swiss army knife for the feminine cause. Really anything that will put the Hypergamy Genie back in the bottle and keep the questioning Betas from getting too curious about feminine nature will do.

In the Bitter Taste of the Red Pill comments, esteemed colleague Dalrock had a timely and profound post that fits this porn-dominance formula perfectly:

These women don’t just want to build a better beta, they want to tame the alpha. In fact, I think the former is just another way they are trying to approach the latter. They want to take an inherrently unsafe activity and make it safe. They want to submit to a man without having to submit; they want a man who can tame their feral self. They want him to trip their danger signals. Even better if he is a stranger from a strange land.

They wan’t this all to happen without giving up their freedom; they want to play this out in the context of serial monogamy, so they can feel loved while also claiming their promiscuity is moral. They want to lose controll to a string of strangers who have all of the hallmarks of very dangerous men, and they want a promise that this will always end well.

They want to know that this will be safe, without it losing the excitement of it feeling unsafe. They are telling men to build a sort of serial monogamy amusement park where they can ride the roller coaster and experience the fear of falling or crashing, while knowing that just behind the scenes grown ups are actually in charge and are responsible for them safely feeling unsafe.

One more thing. As I mentioned above they don’t want to be hemmed in. So instead of building an actuall amusement park, they want roller coasters to spring up randomly in the same exact circumstances where the real danger they mimik would appear. They want to be driving their car on the freeway one instant, and the next experience the fear of careening out of controll the next. They want to impulsively jump off the edge of the Grand Canyon and have a parachute appear and deploy at the last minute. And all they ask is your guarantee that all of this will be safe.

Behold, the female porn dynamic perfected. Danger without danger, bad boy with a heart of gold, a guy who wont cheat, but could cheat,..

Published by Rollo Tomassi

Author of The Rational Male and The Rational Male, Preventive Medicine

216 comments on “50 Shades of Twilight

  1. Thanks for the kind words Rollo.

    Don’t forget Bill Bennet’s predictable take, which is that women writing, buying, and reading books like 50 shades of grey proves that men are bad.

  2. “These women don’t just want to build a better beta, they want to tame the alpha. In fact, I think the former is just another way they are trying to approach the latter. They want to take an inherrently unsafe activity and make it safe. They want to submit to a man without having to submit; they want a man who can tame their feral self.
    ****
    And all they ask is your guarantee that all of this will be safe.”

    FIrst they want to make the beta more alpha. But the ultimate fantasy is to make the alpha more beta. They want to get to know the brooding, mysterious alpha and slowly draw out the beta, but not too much or too fast, and they want that beta to be available only to them and no one else.

    They want the dangerous alpha to be made only a little less dangerous for her sole benefit. If he’s a bad boy, he needs to be bad to everyone else but her. IF he’s an asshole, he needs to be an asshole to everyone else but her. If he’s brooding and mysterious, he must keep everyone else at arm’s length, but he must let her all the way into his world. And it must be sanitized and antiseptic and free from hazards.

  3. I dont know. I used to think girls fell in love with the “positive” aspects of the wolf. Now Im starting to think Im projecting there, and that it’s me, seeing the positive aspects of the wolf, or, the “beta in the alpha”, so I can rationalize the whole thing.

    It makes more sense that girls want the wolf for the wolf.

    Forget about the sanitizing stuff. Maybe they just want the danger, negative emotions included.

    None of the “taming” the alpha, but “owning” the alpha, which is different.

    If you own a dangerous wolf, then you own a dangerous wolf. You dont own it and love it because he behaves like sheep with you. It’s a freaking murderous wolf. That’s why you got it. If you wanted a sheep you would have gotten one.

    1. If Im right, then women want to “own” men including betas and do as they please with them. The security and safety dont come from they taming or changing the alphas, but from the owning / control perspective. The carousel feels “safe” when women can decide when and how stuff ends and starts and how long it lasts and who pay. It doesnt require alphas to be “tamed” or whatever. All it needs is that women own the circus, and it becomes “safe”

      1. Yohami,

        I don’t know. I will only give you my own perspective here, but I suspect that it goes the same for other women. I don’t want to own my husband. On the contrary, I like the feel of him, sort of owning me. He likes to call me “woman” as in “woman, make me a sandwich”. Now, he says it with a twinkly in his eye, only half joking. I LOVE it. It makes me feel like I am his. That I am his chosen one, as it were. I have no interest in owning him, because if I did he would no longer be the alpha he is. He would not be his own man. If I was able to do what I please with him, he would no longer be choosing me, rather I would be choosing him. This would make me feel like I have control over him, and while women say they want this, they don’t. We don’t respect a man that we have power or control over.

        1. Stingray. He owning you can make you feel safe, he owns you, you submit and surrender etc.

          How does that reconcile / cohexist with nagging, for example, or manipulating the guy so he does what you want? not talking about you specifically though.

          Or, if you dont own him, the alpha, how come he’s not banging every other girl around you?

          1. Bear with me. I can’t answer these questions without it sounding like I am blowing up my own skirt. I’m not attempting to do that. I am just trying to answer your questions.

            How does that reconcile / cohexist with nagging, for example, or manipulating the guy so he does what you want?

            I don’t nag. Been there/tried that. It’s useless and pointless.

            Me: Hubby, I have asked you to do X. Why haven’t you done it yet?

            Husband: If you stop nagging, I just might get to it.

            Me: I would stop nagging if you just got it done.

            Husband: Cold steely stare. Code for “ENOUGH.”

            Me: Ok. (Walking away)

            I later asked him how I should broach things that need to be done that I cannot do myself. His response was to ask one time and give him a reasonable time frame. Since then, I have learned to do most of the stuff that I need done myself and for those things I cannot do, I ask him once, give him a time frame and it usually gets done. If it looks like he may have forgotten, I remind him with a single sentence in a normal tone of voice. He knows that occasionally he will forget so this does not bother him.

            Or, if you dont own him, the alpha, how come he’s not banging every other girl around you?

            He gets hit on all the time. He could if he wanted to. He knows it and I know it. He doesn’t want to. To be quite frank, no one else could care for him like I do. We both know that as well.

          2. Yohami,

            Rollo could probably shed more light on that second question. He’s been married for 16 years, if I recall correctly. Never strayed. I gave you my side, he could better give the man’s.

      2. All of this stuff is making the mistake that thaey are motivated to acheive some end goal: “owning the wolf”, or “building a better beta”. They are not goal-directed in that way: all they care about is how they are feeling *right now*.

        1. “Want” is different than “goal oriented”. Obviously what they want is to feel good, where “good” can be many things, that are often contradictory.

    2. It makes more sense that girls want the wolf for the wolf.

      Little Red Riding Hood has long been considered more of a metaphor than just a simple fairy tale.

  4. One interesting aspect of this story formula is the necessity women feel in adding a more overtly sexual element to what’s really tripping their emotional response to the narrative.

    It’s not enough to just have the Alpha wolf love and cherish the Lego brick, women will take up new careers as fiction writers (albeit unoriginal writers) in order to put a more satisfying visceral sexual element into that story if it’s not present, or well represented enough, and in their ideal terms.

  5. Great post, my wife is currently reading this series and despite the drivel that is spewed within (weak writing, unrealistic plot, disjointed sex “scenes” based on my quick skimming over some of the first book) she has been titillated. I’d say this suburban mom support for this type of book supports hypergamy and the dominant male, alpha-types that they don’t see in their partners. For me personally as I work to up my Alpha in the MMSL sense, I’m hoping to jump on the train and open up some new possibilities in the bedroom.

  6. but predictably eels her way around the operative point of how semi-violent romance porn affirms the uglier truths of Game and hypergamy – not to mention avoiding the sticky aspect of ‘committed’ women fantasizing about it.

    I read many of the comments, and I continue to be surprised at the step-by-step regression to a more “blue-pill” outlook on all things related to gender dynamics and female sexuality.

    One comment in particular literally shocked me (I’ll try to dig it up later) but amounted to “Hey, Beta Nice guy, don’t worry one bit about what this book says, IT”S JUST FANTASY, in “real-life” we really like you cuddly nice guys better”. I’m overstating a bit, but that was the gist.

  7. Stingray,

    Yes, that’s what I said Im not talking about you specifically. Trying to figure out females in general. I dont know if you’re the demographic ( did you devour 50 shades of gray and twilight?)

    But since you brought it up:

    “I don’t nag. Been there/tried that.”

    Aight, but why did you try to begin with? how do you reconcile having attempted to have him do what you want, with your claim that you dont want to own him?

    Owing also means “having the sole rights to”

    “He gets hit on all the time. He could if he wanted to.”

    Wait. So he can fuck any girl he wants while he’s married to you? if he wants, he can?

    “He doesn’t want to. To be quite frank, no one else could care for him like I do.”

    “Care for him” is a sexual thing?

    1. Heh, sorry. Thought you were sparing my feelings (solipsism wins again! Hate it). Aside from that, I feel somewhat safe giving my personal impressions as they are just like most other women’s. I don’t think my impressions would be that far off from most of them.

      Aight, but why did you try to begin with? how do you reconcile having attempted to have him do what you want, with your claim that you dont want to own him?

      I tried it to begin with because I thought that was how it was supposed to be done. Call it a shit test. I tried what I saw most everyone else doing. It didn’t work and there was a lot of confusion on my part because of this. Now, that being said, if it did work, the desire to own him would be there. If he allowed it, if he was beta and allowed me to fill that power role, then I would not want to give it up. And I would resent him for it, as well. To own a man is to resent him and have no respect for him. I want nothing to do with that.

      So he can fuck any girl he wants while he’s married to you? if he wants, he can?

      I can’t stop him, Yohomi. I never gave him permission to sleep with other women, but really, if he wanted to sleep around, what could I do about it?

      “Care for him” is a sexual thing?

      Care for him in anything he wants or needs. Sexual, cooking, cleaning, sammiches, you name it. Thing is I like to do these things for him. What’s more, he deserves them.

      1. Very interesting.

        “To own a man is to resent him”

        Start a blog, that’s your headline.

        “I never gave him permission to sleep with other women”

        The language betrays something. How can you give permission or not to something you dont own?

        1. Ha! I was sitting here thinking and I new you were going to ask this: How can you give permission or not to something you dont own? I have been thinking about my response.

          I was responding to your use of the word “can” in your original question. Reading it, I took your surprise to mean that this was something we had discussed in our marriage and I was ok with it. Therefore, me being ok with it was somehow giving permission. No, it’s not like that. Out of respect for me and our marriage my husband will come to me with things that we need to decide on together. He always makes the final decision, however. (Also, this is not something we have ever discussed.)

          Also, keep in mind, there is a duality in the female mind. I would resent my husband if I owned him. But there is always a part that tries to gain power, to push the limits of the alpha. They are the shit tests. While I really don’t want the power in our relationship there are situations that arise that my hindbrain tells me to take advantage of, because if I did I might just be able to shift the power dynamic to myself. I have to shut it down to keep myself from giving whatever shit test I could make happen. The more aware I become the easier it is to stop myself. I have yet to figure out how to make the feelings disappear though.

          (If any of this does not make sense, please ask. My kids are talking to me and I am losing my thoughts.)

  8. Stingray,

    So damn interesting.

    “While I really don’t want the power in our relationship there are situations that arise that my hindbrain tells me to take advantage of, because if I did I might just be able to shift the power dynamic to myself.”

    I know the community wants to call these female hindbrain power pushes “hit tests”. I´ll call them what they are, reptilian hindbrain power pushes. Real attempts to gain power. Men have them too. The difference is we men dont get all unaroused / dont resent the situation when we get the power.

    We resent it when we concede the power and it gets used against us. It’s like the ultimate male on male betrayal, make a deal / make the peace only to have them abuse you, a guy has to be really evil to pull that one with a straight face. With women, it’s the default procedure. You concede power? you lost. Ping. Hence the dumb “test” thing to it. But it’s not a test, it’s you, your hindbrain, craving some power. So.

    Anyway.

    Im still curious about a non-owning relationship where you can still set the limits for behavior. Specially when, well, any time you get to set the limits for behavior = you gain power = you resent it. I know Im painting this in hard white and that there are always compromises and stuff. But I’d like you to shred more light on that micro-sphere if you can. This:

    When you win a power play, you resent it. Still, you want power / control over him fucking other girls or not. Do you resent him for not fucking other girls?

    1. “I´ll call them what they are, reptilian hindbrain power pushes. Real attempts to gain power. ”

      Exactly. I’ve always said that it’s a functionally accurate description to talk of shit tests, but it’s not a wholly accurate description. Women really actually do want the power. They are not merely testing the man. It’s more than just a test – it’s a genuine power grab.

      And incidental to that is a general loss of attraction for the guy if she gets power.

      I think it’s important to know that. Functionally, as a beginner, all you need to know is the shorthand “shit test” idea so that you now what to actually do about it. But for a bigger picture strategy you need to understand the underlying power dynamics.

      1. “And incidental to that is a general loss of attraction for the guy if she gets power.”

        It’s not incidental. Having gotten one, you want another one. Why have one manginia financing your life, when you can have two?

  9. Yohami,

    This may take some time and more than one comment. Kids are busy today and this is one thing I have to think about in quiet to be able to answer you well. Please bear with me. Also, due to the conflicting feelings in women we are talking about, I may get it wrong and have to back track some. You asking specific questions will help me to not do that. Anyway, bear with me. I will answer the everything as soon as I can.

    1. Stingray is next-generation woman, ahead of her time. After the sturm und drang of our anomalous era passes, all women will be on a path to where she already is.

      Stingray, consider writing in a more formal way. You are in possession of an important piece of the puzzle that needs to be articulated consistently and regularly.

      This community should have its own “NRO Corner.” The individual sites are too personalized and inconsistent, and the aggregator/gateways are poorly edited. The leading writers in this web consortium should arrange a gang-blog so that we don’t have to keep piecing together the conversation across a dozen platforms and unruly comment sections.

      The “Alpha Game” site was launched with this concept in mind but is generally a failure, as all the oxygen of the conversation is sucked up by Vox Day’s domineering windbaggery and dorky diversions into his personalized nomenclature system.

      I have my own list of who would make good gang-bangers, but really, even if two mediocre bloggists combined efforts it would have an exponential effect on the conversation.

      So much wisdom, so few managing editors.

      1. In all seriousness, thank you. A “Corner” blog could be very interesting, though I sense some danger in it. Can’t quite put my finger on it. There are a lot of VERY strong personalities in these parts. Would make for interesting debate, though.

        1. NRO’s The Corner is not the best example (especially given l’affaire Derbyshire), but it is a successful gang-blog, the only one I know of and read.

          Gang blogs require management and an agreement to be loosely corralled by editorial guidance, which is why it hasn’t happened in this community and maybe never will: the pretensions to independence are an article of faith that drives bloggers to blog in the first place.

          A certain frame of mind regards editorial management as censorship, hence the exaggerated howling about Derb’s firing. (Which is ironic, given that his gang-blog “SecularRight.org” has erased my comments so many times that I stopped reading/responding.)

          A quality product requires an editor to shape the direction of a publication. The “danger” you “sense … in it” is probably just that, a natural bristling at the editorial requirements of a readable publication, as opposed to the cacophony of low-barrier-to-entry, loosely affiliated bloggery.

          In the meantime, be bold with your opinion here in the various comment ghettoes. Even when you inspire dyspetic reaction, keep coming back and do not be deterred. The value of your commentary is not in its correctness necessarily; the value is in its simple presence. The wisdom you provide is in the demonstration of how a woman with her head screwed-on right reacts to a raw exposure to the truth.

      2. Stingray is next-generation woman, ahead of her time. After the sturm und drang of our anomalous era passes, all women will be on a path to where she already is

        Absolutely. There is a blogger Olive kind of doing the same thing, and there was one discussion on HUS where she got smacked down hard for some of the ideas and notions she was putting out there that related to female introspection and what WOMEN SHOULD DO differently.

        Its way too early in game for the message and thought process someone like Stingray has to even be close to mainstream. Most women still want to square the circle so to speak.

        1. Mike, I read very few of the comments there. Out of curiosity, what did she have to say and what was the general response? Good for her. I think she is quite young, too. It takes a lot of courage to say this stuff there, especially for a woman. I tend to temper (heh, Matt King, yes . . . temper) my thoughts when I post at HUS as I know that if I were completely blunt they would be outright rejected. I hope she took it well and stuck to her guns.

          Also, thank you, as well. I hope I can at least give the men some insight into women’s thinking, if nothing else.

          1. Stingray, here is an example of her thoughts:

            http://femaleframechanges.blogspot.com/2012/03/experiment.html

            The problem with being feisty in a relationship is that it has the potential to create power struggles. Feisty can become aggressive, and aggressive women are not attractive and don’t handle relationships well. For these women, it is important to step back, especially if they do want their men to lead. My boyfriend, by nature, is a very laid back guy. That said, he absolutely hates when people try to control him, so in stepping back, I’m allowing him to be himself.

            Anyways, there was a quite contentious discussion….Yohami knows what I am talking about.

            The crux of the dilemma is the paradox/contradiction that many women want and are not introspective enough to realize is in fact an absurdity. They want to be “empowered” and “independent” yet want a “dominant” guy. They want to be “led” yet free to follow any emotional whim.

            Dalrock nailed some of these contradictions in his comment.

            One thing I notice about you and a few other women is you have the ability to recognize when the hamster is maybe getting active, and not let it take over. And just for the record guys have weaknesses as well. Both sexes have some weaknesses that need someone to develop some self-awareness to temper them.

          2. It takes a lot of courage to say this stuff there, especially for a woman.

            FWIW, I imagine this must be difficult. Everything I’ve read and studied seems to suggest women feel social ostracization orders of magnitude higher than most men. I’ve got to imagine this makes discussing substantive issues difficult where this is going to be immense social pressure to “fall in line” with whatever the majority of view. I suspect it takes enormous fortitude as a woman to stay totally independent of what other women are saying.

            On that note, I always respected and admired Elisabeth Hasselbeck to stand her ground with those other shrews on the View

  10. First, let’s start with this:

    Real attempts to gain power. Men have them too. The difference is we men dont get all unaroused / dont resent the situation when we get the power.

    and

    But it’s not a test, it’s you, your hindbrain, craving some power. So.

    I am not sure that it is actually craving power so much as it is wanting to make sure that the man still maintains the power. If a man can stand up to the woman he loves, she can rest assured that he will stand up to anyone else. However, where there is a power *hole*, she will fill it if the man won’t. That hole must be filled, no matter what. It’s a terrifying feeling leaving it open.

    Also, there is more to it than that. As you know, validation is like crack to us. If we can take power from a man, than it validates ourselves. That is a powerful thing. Contrary to that, having a man who won’t allow that power grab can be even more validating if we can show that off. The women friends will be jealous that we have that. Something else that makes all of this even more confusing is that in this jealousy the women friends may come down on the wife calling her submissive and not empowered. It’s crap, but when that herd mentality comes in, these words can be incredibly hurtful. The man must back her up in these situations and reassure his wife that she is in the right. More validation. (confused yet?) We only *feel* 90% of this and can’t put words to any of it. So while we understand what we might be feeling, we can’t make heads or tails as to the why of it. Women want to be right by the friends and the man. Can’t do both. But women will sure as hell try to.

    1. You just summed up the reason why it is all but impossible to have a relationship with most women these days. Their instincts are pushing them one way and society is pushing them in the opposite direction.

      For a woman to be fulfilled she must submit to someone who is more dominant, but society tells her that’s “weak” which she equates with “bad” so she fights it. The end result is that no one is happy.

      Women who become more dominant require men who are more dominant still.The shit tests become stronger. Women these days complain that there are no good men. Well, we only have so much energy to devote to bullshit so if you push and push and push sometimes it is just easier for us to walk away and do other things.

      I commend you for your understanding of this dynamic. Throughout most of history there would be no need for women to wise up because the sexes were not in conflict but these days if a woman is not naturally submissive she must understand that the key to being happy rests in filtering the noise and following her instincts.

      1. “Women who become more dominant require men who are more dominant still.The shit tests become stronger. Women these days complain that there are no good men. Well, we only have so much energy to devote to bullshit so if you push and push and push sometimes it is just easier for us to walk away and do other things.”

        You just described feminism in a nutshell. It was a shit test women collectively gave to society as a whole. Society failed.

  11. When you win a power play, you resent it. Still, you want power / control over him fucking other girls or not. Do you resent him for not fucking other girls?

    No, I do not resent him for not fucking other girls as I did not demand this power over him. I might be able to argue that our marriage demands it, but I know the reality is that this is a decision that he has made for himself. He is being faithful because that is what he wants. Of course he is attracted to other women, but out of respect for our family, our marriage and me, he doesn’t. I greatly appreciate this from him. I in no way resent it. Also, there would be consequences if he cheated and was caught. I don’t know what they would be. I guess it would depend on the situation of the cheating. He is happy with what he has so I don’t think the consequences would be worth it to him.

    Im still curious about a non-owning relationship where you can still set the limits for behavior.

    I am not setting the limits of his behavior in anyway. He will concede certain things to me for my sake and for the sake of our relationship. And I am grateful that he does these things. It shows love, admiration and respect for me. This in turn makes me want to work even harder for him and our relationship.

    It’s a two way street. He puts in the effort and so do I. You’ve heard people say that it is a two way street. Both people need to invest 50% into the relationship. This isn’t true. Both people need to invest 100% of themselves into the relationship for it to work and be happy. (Into the relationship, not the woman. This is important.)

    1. I will risk ridicule here, and say that the reason that Stingray’s man controls their relationship is, at least in part, because he controls himself. A part of that is not banging other girls just because he can.

      Also, even though he’s in charge, I think he must respect her; at least he respects the relationship.

      1. Yep. He read this comment section the other day and said something along the lines of “I lead myself where I want. If I wanted to sleep with other girls I simply would.” End of story, really. The rest of what I wrote above might have a little to do with it, but it is minute and is likely hamster spinning on my part.

  12. Reading the reviews of 50 Shades on Amazon will tell you everything you need to know. What’s especially hilarious & telling are the 1-star reviews—a fair number of them are complaining that the guy in the story wasn’t dominant/violent/sexy/alpha enough.

    Manginas wept.

  13. “If this book represents any significant turning point it will be its role in provably, viscerally, forcing women to acknowledge their own bullshit.”

    You’d think that was the case, but I doubt anything will come of it. Those that are Game-savvy already know what you speak of because of Nancy Friday’s book My Secret Garden which was released almost 40 years ago! What’s happening with 50 Shades is EXACTLY the same sentiments that were brought to light with Garden all those years ago, so why would anything change now?

    1. This is what I was thinking too. I don’t know how popular The Secret Garden was or how it compares to 50 Shades’ popularity, but the only thing it will force is another round of rationalization.

  14. Yohami,

    I knew I missed something. You asked if I devoured 50 Shades of Grey and Twilight.

    I did not. I have zero interest in either one. That is not to say I haven’t read any female “romance” (Heh, right) novels, though.

  15. Has ANYONE ever jumped off the Grand Canyon? Sounds like something moralistic nice guys would NOT do. Here I go…

  16. WHat I find most interesting about the comments women are making about this is the following slip up. They suddenly think it is sort of ok to admit they do like the alpha badboy as long as he is (only) nice to her. The fact that he is nice to her supposedly makes it alright and moral to want such a guy. But when they say it is not only ok but important that he remain hard and cold towards everyone else they admit they want an immoral man who behaves immoraly to everyone else than her. I don`t think they quite get that saying that means they want a man who is a sociopath towards others and nice towards them but that is what what they are saying means. They are NOT saying they want a man who is a sort of well balanced, mentally healthy , alpha that is leading everyone in a respectfull way. THey say they want a man you is an alpha in a really asholish way to everyone one else and nice to them. That does in fact mean they are admitting to and promoting a strategy of dark triad by proxy by getting a man to use the dark triad for her benefit. Romance novels just do not show a lot of well balanced benign alphas following a manosphere woman aproved Athol Kay alpha beta mix. Romance novels show very unhealthy men behaving badly. If women most wanted the balanced healthy alpha who commanded the respect of others not just fear THAT is what romance novels would be about. They are not.

    1. Heh, NARNALT. I haven’t read any harlequin romance, but I am pretty sure these stick with the basic noble hero who could never, ever fall in love falling for the special everywoman snowflake. I’m embarrassed to talk about it because I know how stupid they are, but the ones I have read and enjoyed are the noble man incapable of love because of depression, brooding, etc, found Miss Perfect, dominated her and they lived happily ever after (Often times making it perfectly clear that for whatever reason he would continue to be dominate.) I think this idea of the anti-hero is fairly new. It has been a fairly new concept in Hollywood films as well. If this is what many women find scintillating, well, it is a bit telling.

    2. “Sociopath” is not a behavior it is a psychological affliction.

      “Respect” “Asshole” yada yada you’re still in conflict.

      Accept that women want something you personally don’t believe should be desired.

      Feel free to not like the “disrespectful, mean, asshole” Just know that women will like him regardless of your opinion.

  17. Romance novels goes too far in terms of betaization. They end with the alpha behaving beta towards her and so people asume and some women argue that is what women want. But had the books had a couple of more chapters the alpha would have become boring to her and she would have lost attraction. Women don`t want the control the woman in the romance novels get in the end. They still do want the men to be nice to them but not in the way the romance novels portray. Women still DO want the alpha to be nice to her but they want him to still be in control and to maintain the feeling of having to chase etc. THe reason why the romance novels and womens dreams go too far in terms of bbetaization is that the moment when the alpha switches from alpha to beta feels so damn good, for a short time untill it doesn`t feel good anymore. THe reason it feels good is in order to keep women motivated to keep trying to betaize the alpha. So the thing that feels the best to a woman and which she chases is in fact impossible to have for more than an extremely short time untill it doesn`t feel good anymore, as in a day or a week or so. Had this not been so women would have too easily stopped trying to betaize the alpha whenever he was in control but treating her good. Womens curse is that they will always even at that perfect point feel somwhere that even more devotion would feel good although it won`t.

  18. Ugh, more emo porn. It is everywhere Lifetime, E! and chich flicks aren’t enough. But wait! There is always more boring emo porn!

  19. Your comments are very interesting Stingray.

    “having a man who won’t allow that power grab can be even more validating if we can show that off. The women friends will be jealous that we have that.”

    I have been thinking lately that one of the most cruel and effective and impossible to spot ways a woman can hurt/get back at another woman is to let that other women she her be very submissive and respectfull to her boyfriend. Even though they won`t quite understand why and might at the same time resent what they are seeing on some level I would think all women recognize another womans happily submissive bodylanguage and behavior towards her boyfriend as something she would really, really like herself but probably does not have and hence be very jealous although probably confused. Maybe for women that are in the process of taking the red pill realizing this can be quite an added motivator to keep the proper power dynamic in place.

    1. I guess a woman could use that as revenge. It would be incredibly easy, though, for the friend to turn that around using the weak and subordinate argument. I think it would much depend on the friend.

      I think most women truly do want this, but when they can’t have it, it is VERY easy to fool oneself into being content with what they have, at least for a time. I am pretty sure part of the hamsters job is self preservation.

      I gotta say though, and maybe I am over thinking it, any woman who consciously uses her man to make another woman jealous isn’t truly being respectful of him. I can’t quite put my finger on it, but it is terribly disrespectful to use what a man has given you and then turn that and use it against another person.

  20. Women who simultaneously try to control men and want to be dominated by men… all line up with the Curse of Eve.

    I don’t get overly frustrated with women who exhibit this (all of them), it is in their wiring. Don’t get mad at a fish for swimming. It is indeed frustrating that it is such an obvious fact, and yet women go around trying to deny it anyway. Of course they don’t want to tip their hand. Fortunately, thanks to books like 50 Shades, they will not be able to deny it much longer, which will help the red pill become more palatable for men who cannot currently accept it.

    IDK why more men get so wimpy about understanding that women WANT male authority. Just grow a pair and roll, son! Why so afraid?? It is so scary to spank a girl’s ass? They aren’t porcelain dolls, they are tough as hell (they dont want you to know that either)

    As to the issue of “romance novels”, I have written a couple books that are Dom/sub love stories. While they widely appeal to a female audience, if there are any in the manosphere who would be interested in checking out my newest, I am looking for some reviews. Free e-copy in exchange for your thoughts on “The Gypsy Queen”

    I am quite curious how red-pill men would view this book, the way I did it.

    1. Fortunately, thanks to books like 50 Shades, they will not be able to deny it much longer,

      yes, they can deny it. they’ll simply say that the book is merely fiction, ‘just a fantasy’.

      never underestimate the power of the hamster.

  21. Solomon Press: in other words, that’s the beaten-dead-horse trope “Why don’t men just man up?”

    It has do do with what Stingray said here:

    “Something else that makes all of this even more confusing is that in this jealousy the women friends may come down on the wife calling her submissive and not empowered. It’s crap, but when that herd mentality comes in, these words can be incredibly hurtful. The man must back her up in these situations and reassure his wife that she is in the right. More validation.”

    Why not man up? Because to do so means you have to be enemies with all feminists and other men. Stingray says here that not only does she shit test her husband, but she also wants to see his reaction to defending their relationship against feminism. She wants to see him beat her own testing, her friend’s testing, and society’s testing. Who is on the guy’s side?

    It takes too much effort and cunning to game your girlfriend, then game her feminist friends, then successfully deflect every guy she tries to pit you against. Man up= be very alone. Unless you are dominant and can coerce other men to protect you. Which is why we are regressing back to pre-civilization.

    1. “Civilization is unnatural of course some pretty intrusive things would have to be done to maintain it.”

      The appeal to the herd argument is relatively weak. Don’t Man Up because it will cause a person to be lonely?

      If you’re pretending to be someone else to gain others acceptance you will be lonely regardless. There really is no difference.

      Unless playing charades with people who would detest you if they really knew your true beliefs gives a sense of community.

    2. @gritartisan

      My version of “Man Up” is different than the feminist Pastors.

      Mine is more like “Rise up and subjugate women thoroughly”. I don’t think women should have the right to vote. I am all for Patriarchy (which, BTW, is an acceptable setting for men to ‘man up’ because they are in charge).

      The “man up” cry you hear in churches would be more correctly translated as “lay down”

      Your assertion that its “too much trouble” and to fight against feminism is to be very alone… well that is just wussbag thinking. I am a Dominant (in the BDSM sense) and I don’t have ANY of the problems you are complaining about.

      The difference is, though, that I am not married. Marriage 2.0 is an automatic abdication of power, that I will never allow.

      The regressing back to pre-civilization is fair enough. When collapse strikes humanity, (and it WILL), that collapse will bring about swift and thorough patriarchy, so I am all for it.

      In the meantime, though, you don’t have to be alone. You just have to understand that chicks respond to Dominance, and as you gain familiarity with a girl, you can introduce it (from day one, really, but more subtle at first) and once you tie it in with mind-blowing, Dominating sex, she’ll be all in.

      There are a lot of women, right this minute, who fully confess that they like to be Dominated, and that only a Dominant man will do. They don’t give a damn about feminists, and they also know the truth- that they, the submissives, are the most powerful and courageous women of all. Show your woman the truth of that transformation, and enjoy it as long as you wish, as long as you abide on the throne.

  22. Who is on the guy’s side?

    You are. Past tense, here. The more shit tests you pass, the far fewer you will see. I don’t *want* to shit test my husband. When I feel the urge to do it (which is very rare) I squash it. I don’t expect my husband to defend our relationship against feminism, I expect him to have my back. It’s my job to defend the relationship and myself against feminism. As far as my friends, personally, I don’t have female friends. I don’t get along with women very well. They don’t like me much. But if any women I might talk to don’t like my relationship it’s on me to defend myself and my relationship. Not my husband.

    However, if your wife or girlfriend keeps female friends that would discourage her and your relationship, then she should end those friendships. You or her friends. What’s more important to her?

    Look, women hold just as much responsibility for the relationship as men. You may need to teach her that, as God knows, no one else does these days (you need to decide if you want to take the time). When I said you need to back her up, what I meant was, when she comes back from battle with these toxic women friends, you need to bolster her confidence back up. Give her the courage to keep up her own battles. If she expects you to do it for her, then something may not be right.

    1. I understand what you are saying here. That’s why being calm and assertive always helps my LTRs. We need to be that anchor; that’s why we are the men. It’s part of that ‘dominance’ aspect. The man must know how to calm, inform, and direct his woman in a confident manner–makes her feel safe following him.

      That’s why the man leads in dancing. The female can’t help but look up to him(boyfriend) for comfort. It’s in her programming. She wants to feel secure THROUGH him.

        1. Stingray – “Absolutely.
          I’ve said before, nothing calms the hamster like a strong dependable man.”

          Is this true in most cases? I’ve been accused of being too clinical and not emotional enough in the past so I have learned to “react” to some of my SOs “crises” moments and honestly the results are less than stellar. Although she gets irritated when I don’t react, those instances generally go better, or at least conclude with far less drama. My preference is to stay cool, but I feel like I’m expected to get pulled into the chaos instead of riding it out uninvolved at an emotional level. I can’t say I’m trying to appease her by allowing myself to be sucked in, it’s more along the lines of trying to be more “normal” in general. But my tolerance for bullshit is low, and frustration of being forced to deal with it is enormous.

          So how would one go about not being affected by BS and at the same time not appear to be aloof or uncaring? My gut instinct is to say “knock it off”, but that doesn’t seem very sympathetic. Or is the goal to actually NOT be sympathetic?

          1. Ted, from the 16 Commandments:

            IV. Don’t play by her rules

            If you allow a woman to make the rules she will resent you with a seething contempt even a rapist cannot inspire. The strongest woman and the most strident feminist wants to be led by, and to submit to, a more powerful man. Polarity is the core of a healthy loving relationship. She does not want the prerogative to walk all over you with her capricious demands and mercurial moods. Her emotions are a hurricane, her soul a saboteur. Think of yourself as a bulwark against her tempest. When she grasps for a pillar to steady herself against the whipping winds or yearns for an authority figure to foil her worst instincts, it is you who has to be there… strong, solid, unshakeable and immovable.

            http://heartiste.wordpress.com/the-sixteen-commandments-of-poon/

  23. Thanks to this book it looks like it’s time to approach cougars, MILFs, and married chicks with really sexually dominant direct game!

    …no wait that’s always worked.

  24. Speaking of chicks digging dominance, I had to drop some dominance game on a chick I am seeing. She just got out of a relationship and is in the stage where she is doing something 7 days a week so I don’t see her often. Recognized it for what it was early on and sat back and didn’t put much effort into it. Of course this works like a charm to get her coming back for more.

    After some BS small talk via text the other day she says “I’m actually still kinda busy but when are we going to go dancing?” I didn’t ask her if she was busy or what she was doing or anything that would prompt that type of a response so the way she said that was off-putting.

    My first thought was “Bitch. I’m busy too. Call me when you get some free time and I’ll see if I can fit you in”. Obviously that’s about the worst thing I could do, so my next thought was to go for the reframe with “If you’re trying to get in my pants you really need to brush up on your seduction skills” basically calling her out on the way she came off as being too busy. Thing is she’s the sensitive type who doesn’t do well with negs and teasing so I opted to go straight for the dominance play, so I replied with this-

    “Tomorrow. My place @ 9:30. Wear your sexy black dress.”

    Bingo. She replies asking me to clarify which dress I want her to wear, hehe.

    In retrospect either the reframe or the dominance play could have probably worked, but given her sensitive nature and the fact that I get the feeling that she might be DTF I think I played it perfectly. No reason to throw roadblocks in the way if she is suggesting this kind of a “date”, even if she did come off a little rude in her delivery.

    I plan on following through with more of the same dominance game when we are face to face. Logistics have prevented me from closing the deal as of yet but this is the perfect setup. Her car is at my place, walk to the club, get physical on the dancefloor, head back a little early, escalate and close.

  25. I noticed this dynamic when I wrote side stories for a couple of movies on fanfiction. A lot of women read them and always commented positively to my male protagonists–which I based their personalities on heavy and dark, alpha characteristics.

    They always say things like: he’s just misunderstood or I like how you make him so decisive.

    I even made a graphic scene where he ‘took’ a woman, making her his wife by killing her husband in battle. Yet, instead of saying how horrible it was that her husband was slaughtered… they applauded the hot ‘sex scene'(more like rape)…

    Boy that hamster is something else.

  26. Rollo – “Ted, from the 16 Commandments: IV. Don’t play by her rules”

    Yeah somewhere in my brain I know this. I still struggle with the concept of trusting that *I* know better what my SO needs that she does. It just strikes me as being very egotistical. I can’t help feeling like I’m breaking some rule of “humanity” by assuming I know best. Although, I don’t have that problem with my children, because I assume they don’t have enough experience to make those kinds of decisions for themselves. Treating an adult like one of my children just seems very demeaning.

    I hate being bound by societal rules, but to be honest it’s pretty scary for me to let them all go. It is exactly those rules that keep the worst of humanity in check, and although shrugging them off certainly affords a great deal of individual freedom, that freedom comes with heavy responsibility. Or put another way, if I truly put all my focus on what *I* want, I would probably not be a very nice/kind/pleasant person. Would it be better for me? Probably. Would it be better for society? Most likely not. And although I can’t argue that society doesn’t give a rats ass about my happiness, my sense of duty and obligation still pushes me to “tow the line.” This is just one case where I find myself wanting to “do” one thing, but pushing myself to “be” another to fit into some idea of what a “good citizen” is.

    Perhaps I’m really just not a “good” person. That concern is what keeps ME in check.

    1. There are two kinds of people who believe in equalism, those who want to use it for control, and those who are uncomfortable with the responsibility that comes from being in a position of authority.

      You can still be an authority and be a ‘good’ person. Equalism tricks you by conflating authority with a desire for power.

      1. I can see that. I fall into the second category. I am very uncomfortable being responsible for other people, because ultimately I can’t control what they think or do. And if they fail while I am responsible, that means I failed as well, which puts my success in the hands of another person. Again excluding my children. But I see it as my responsibility to be in authority over them until they are an adult, so I don’t feel any conflict about it. However, I do personally feel responsible every time they fail at something, but do my best not to impart that pressure on them.

        Logically I know equalism is BS. There is no way we can all be “equal” when it is clearly evident that there are many differences person to person. We may be able to set some base level of “equalness”, but there will always be smarter, faster, stronger, people out there, and you can’t have true equality between dissimilar things. And it gets further complicated when gender is brought into the equation.

        But I also tend to feel that power does corrupt, and those that have it are influenced BY it. This goes much further than my outlook on male/female dynamics though.

        1. It isn’t often talked about in these spheres but the counterpart to equalism being BS is that not every man can be an “alpha”. The world needs beta males. And there is nothing wrong with being one. Most guys fall into that category. Maybe you don’t have the temperament to step into the role of being responsible for other, and that’s fine. Just remember though, this isn’t a black or white thing and the further you fall toward the “work my ass off for everyone else’s benefit” side, the more you are going to get stuck doing shit for everyone else. And that sucks. So at least try to lean in the other direction.

    2. Treating an adult like one of my children just seems very demeaning.

      If an adult is behaving like a child then . . .

      It’s not egotistical to stand firm and do what you know is right. It’s not about giving her what she wants rather giving her what she needs. The two are often completely opposite. A woman is a ball of feelings at any given moment. A woman who is upset is an enormous ball of conflicting feelings that are nearly impossible to tease apart and figure out. What can tease them apart better than anything else is a constant man. One whom she can turn to and know will be her rock. Knowing that helps her to solve her own problems in time. It makes her a stronger and more steady person in the long run.

      1. “It’s not egotistical to stand firm and do what you know is right. It’s not about giving her what she wants rather giving her what she needs. The two are often completely opposite”

        I understand that, but it still takes the responsibility from HER and puts in on MY shoulders. Why should I have to determine what is best for her, isn’t that her job? Further, I would be pretty pissed if someone acted the same towards me. I am perfectly capable of deciding what I need for myself, and if I’m not, let me fail on my own terms. How else will I learn to KNOW what I need if someone else always decides for me?

        It is this shifting of responsibility that irks me. I am responsible for my children because they are not legally old enough to be responsible for themselves. Once they turn 18, the best they will get from me is an opinion IF they ask. I’m actually looking forward to not being responsible for them anymore, so i can instead enjoy them as they are.

        1. Stingray – “A woman is a ball of feelings at any given moment. A woman who is upset is an enormous ball of conflicting feelings that are nearly impossible to tease apart and figure out.”

          I also wanted to comment on this and forgot.

          Why is it MY issue to resolve her emotional turmoil? Wouldn’t a responsible adult realize they were an emotional wreck and do something about it themselves? I’m all for being supportive, but being the “rock” to tease apart her ball of emotions sounds like a co-dependency issue more than a healthy relationship.

          Where is is HER ownership of her problems in this? It sort of implies that all a woman has to do to deal with her emotional crap is find herself a man that will snap her to her senses. It puts the responsibility of “keeping her in line” on her mate. How about she simply learn to do that for herself?

          1. Because most of us can’t do that without a strong man t show us how. Holy Hell Ted. You are still stuck in this place where men and women are alike. We. Are. Not. Most women don’t even realize that they are a ball of emotions.

            Bottom line: It’s not your issue to resolve anything at all. I am not saying you have to micromanage her whole life. I am saying you are the calm, the consistency. You don’t need to make her decisions for her. You be there for her to hang onto when she loses her way. Just know that she will. It’s inevitable. Something somewhere along the line is going to throw he off kilter and she is going to turn to you to hold onto. If your squishy, she is going to push on you like hell. If your rock solid, she will hold onto you and want to go where ever you lead.

            Where is is HER ownership of her problems in this? Most women are never going to realize they even have problems in this to own until they meet a man who is strong enough and willing to show her what they are. It is 99% unconscious.

          2. You still believe that women are independent, rational agents, self-aware and in control of their emotionality. Yet another result of an equalist mindset.

            Ted, what you’re frustrated with is why a woman can’t behave as a man. The equalist names her “responsible adult” because it doesn’t want to offend the sensibilities of blank slate ideology.

            She looks to a man for stability because she is a woman, not a responsible adult. Even the most well grounded and mature woman will still look to a man for direction and emotional security.

          3. Even the most well grounded and mature woman will still look to a man for direction and emotional security.

            A man she can depend on to give her this is like air.

          4. Stingray – ” Most women are never going to realize they even have problems in this to own until they meet a man who is strong enough and willing to show her what they are. It is 99% unconscious.”

            Thank you. I’ve been asking this general question for some time and you are the first woman to give me a straight answer. I realize women and men are different, but it seems my mistake was believing that everyone should be introspective enough to realize at least some of this on thier own. In this light, it really is very similar to dealing with a child in that she lacks the experience to deal with the situation. I can handle that but I’m hoping that this also implies that she will at some point figure out how to deal with this on her own? Even a little?

            This also explains why a woman would get pissy when she doesn’t “get her way”. I imagine it is the adult equivalent of a temper tantrum.

            Rollo – I get it, but I wanted to hear it from a woman. No disrespect, but hearing a bunch of men say what a woman needs just doesn’t seem legit, no more than a woman telling men how game should work. I’m all for doing my duty for my mate as long as it actually IS my duty and she expects it from me. I’ve been over at HUS in part because there are plenty of women there, and I was asking this question looking for some answer. I think several may have tried to say what Stingray did, but it was never put in blunt terms.

            Sincerely thanks for the straight answers.

          5. I can handle that but I’m hoping that this also implies that she will at some point figure out how to deal with this on her own? Even a little?

            This is a more difficult question to answer because it depends on the girl. I believe the potential is always there, yes. Your strength should begin to feed into her and strengthen her. She will still need to lean but hopefully not as hard or as often. If she lets herself this can happen. I don’t believe that all women let themselves learn this though. Some believe that depending on or needing a man is somehow wrong and they will fight it. In reality, it is the most natural thing in the world.

          6. Rollo – I get it, but I wanted to hear it from a woman. No disrespect, but hearing a bunch of men say what a woman needs just doesn’t seem legit, no more than a woman telling men how game should work.

            Ted, man…….how long have you been around this stuff?

            The first thing you learn when your eyes start to open is to avoid listening to what women say. Like, literally, if you can’t grasp this one very simple principle you might as well just hang it up cause this is what polluted your mind in the first place.

          7. GLC – I’ve been around the ‘sphere for about a year, give or take a bit, but most of that time has been spent at MMSL and HUS. I made the rounds to other PUA related sites, but frankly the undercurrent of anger at most of them turned me off and I rarely read any of them. I have been coming here from time to time, and BadgerHut as well.

            And I completely get that what women say and what they want/need is different, but I cannot in any kind of good faith simply decide to do what is best for another human adult without them at least acknowledging that it is what they want. My SO is an adult, and she is at least legally considered to be responsible for herself. Or lets go another way…

            If I was into BDSM, I would need my submissive’s consent before proceeding to “dominate” her, correct? If I’m going to socially “dominate” her (which is to say be “king of my castle” the way described here) should I not at least get some form of approval from her first? And, I would suspect if I asked the question, I would get a resounding NO (since I know my SO claims to want an egalitarian relationship) which would then mean that my taking the lead goes directly against her stated will, regardless of if it is the right or wrong thing to do.

            Rollo – “This is how I know you’re still plugged into the Matrix. Your default authority is still what women tell you.”

            As an adult, my SO gets to decide if she wants my leadership or not. How can anyone with any bit of morality or even conscious simply decide for another adult what is best for them? Do you honestly not see that as arrogant? I’m not saying I’m incapable of doing it, and in fact I believe that having the “reins” in the relationship would allow me to improve things easier and with less drama. However, if it goes against her will, then I have no claim to that role. Unless of course you are implying that it is my role by default since she agreed to be in a relationship with me. That would be fine provided it was laid out in the beginning and clearly stated. However I don’t think there are many if any modern American women that in any way believe it. In fact, I would wager that most are completely against the concept.

            So, how does one morally go about taking the leadership role without completely removing agency from their partner? You can claim that women aren’t independent and don’t have agency all you want, but the law isn’t on your side.

          8. However, if it goes against her will,

            What she says her will is and what her body and subconscious are telling her her will is are two polar opposites. In short, no, she does not know her own will.

          9. Ted, if you ask her “may I be your leader?” then you’re asking for permission – asking for approval – she’s your leader. It might look like a conundrum but the key is to understand: she’s not getting the logical sense of your question, but the emotional content of it. Her response will be towards your emotional question, you asking her to follow her, she’s going to respond “NO”

            So instead of asking, do it. Try both approaches if this crap disturbs you. First be submissive and see how she responds. Then be more dominant and see how she responds.

            Make your own mind.

        2. I understand that, but it still takes the responsibility from HER and puts in on MY shoulders. Why should I have to determine what is best for her, isn’t that her job?

          Most girls I date tend to weigh between 100-110lbs. I am just over 200. I could crush these girl’s heads with my right bicep. The fact that men are bigger, stronger and better able to solve problems means that a woman’s natural role is to submit to a man. I know that things have changed a lot over the past couple of hundred years but trust me, evolution has yet to catch up.

          This means that men have evolved to lead and women to follow. It’s the natural order of things. It’s the way the world works. Any deviation from this script and you aren’t doing ANYONE any favors. Not the woman, not yourself, and not society. You think you are being polite when you are actually doing everyone a disservice.

          1. All that may be true, but the law doesn’t see things in terms of “natural order”. It may be that men should “lead” and women should “follow”, but unless you know some trick I don’t see how we can ever get that concusses to fly. Perhaps there is a chance on the individual level, if every man starts his relationships with something like “if you are going to be with me, then you will be following my lead. If you are not happy with that, please say so now and I’ll move on.” IF every women didn’t run for the hills immediately, I would be shocked as hell.

            So again, how exactly can we “enforce” the natural order?

          2. You don’t talk about it with her, Ted. You simply become the leader and see how she reacts to it. You are not becoming her drill instructor. You are becoming the head of your house. That doesn’t mean you lay down orders. You stand firm (and fair, since that seems to be your way). These are two different things. That’s not to say that you will never give out orders, but that should be a last resort if that is how you choose to run your home.

          3. “These are two different things. That’s not to say that you will never give out orders, but that should be a last resort if that is how you choose to run your home.”

            And that may be my real issue. I don’t “lead” in a passive manner. At work when I am in charge of a project, I push things to go the way I see it, and don’t leave much up to chance. Surely I let people do their jobs as best they see fit, as long as it doesn’t go against the plan. I also hate to micromanage, so I prefer people that can simply take a direction and go with it rather than someone that needs to be led continually. In fact, I purposely select team members looking for independent people. When I have to get involved at a micro level, it usually doesn’t go well for the person involved. I like project management because at that point I usually just ask for another person to replace the ‘trouble’ member. I don’t negotiate. I give instructions and expect them to be followed.

            Of course none of this works well in a relationship, especially one where it is expected to be some sort of ‘equal’ split. I can work WITH someone just fine with little to no friction, but it is a totally different story if I have to lead them. My issue is, if I am expected to lead and accept all the responsibility, then I want everything done my way.

            I never claimed to be a great leader. I get shit done, but it isn’t because of my great leadership as much as my stubborn bullheaded determination to get shit done MY way. This is why I do project management and will never be a Team manager. Can I be a great manager? Probably, but the amount of actual personal skills required to keep people “happy” is just more than I can manage. I really don’t care about people’s happiness enough to be successful at it.

            And this leaves me in a bad position to be a “leader” at home. My concept of leading isn’t people friendly in the least. If we go with the Captain and First Officer model, I wouldn’t never be Pickard (sorry if I spelled that wrong, not really a Trek fan) because he is far too diplomatic a leader. I would be more like a pirate captain, may way or the plank. At work I can do this because the people I manage don’t have a choice if they want to get paid. It doesn’t fly so well at home. 😛

          4. If you decide to lead you are not going to be able to micromanage. That is not being a rock. It’s a bulldozer. Try some things out and see how they work.

            FYI: Pickard makes women tingle HARD.

          5. Ted,

            Honestly, you are just flat out confused about what it means to be a leader in a relationship. This is clear because you want to keep equating it with being an operational manager/micromanager in the workplace, and the two concepts are very different.

            I am genuinely curious what your goals are now. You’ve been around these parts long enough for various thoughts/ideas to coalesce, but you seem to still be fighting some inner battle especially as it relates to the concept of male leadership. As always, Yohami is spot on, so go reread his comments and simply ponder them.

            At the end of the day,make up your mind, and simply go with what you think fits your personality and ethical structure. Just my opinion, but eventually you have to resolve these questions. I’ve been reading your comments for months and it always seems like the same internal debate.

          6. MikeC – “This is clear because you want to keep equating it with being an operational manager/micromanager in the workplace, and the two concepts are very different.”

            Nice to see you out and about. 😉

            Yep, this is indeed my sticking point. I had no model to follow growing up in regards to what a “leader” in a relationship should look like, and I am still trying to work it all out in my head. I am really trying to conceptualize what leading a relationship is about, because I don’t work well using “try and see” methods. I follow plans, procedures, designs, and flow charts. Most relationship stuff is very “touchy/feely” and I truly don’t have any idea how to approach it from a logical standpoint. I hate using shotgun methods (that is point, shoot, and see what you hit) and it seems that in terms of relationship happiness, hit or miss is a recipe for disaster.

            And I know its been MONTHS that I’ve been stuck on this, and it’s really starting to piss me off. I can sit and talk theory all day, but what I’m lacking here is a solid plan to put the theory into practice. The only leading experience I have to pull from is not easily applied to a relationship, and I simply can’t tell if I’m doing a good job or not, because I have no real results to compare with. I mean, I suppose I can see that our relationship is good today, but that doesn’t mean I’m doing a good job, it could simply be that there has been little or no friction. There is a lot of speculation with this stuff, and I hate speculating.

            I also can’t help but feel like most of this simply flies in the face of individual autonomy and agency. If it was implied that upon acceptance of the relationship my SO was to submit to my leadership, there would be no issue in my mind about my role. Marriage 1.0 had this default setup, and there was rarely any friction caused by it since it was the accepted norm. Not so today, in a time when “obey” is stricken from all but the most conservative bible-thumping wedding ceremonies. I don’t believe for one moment that any women entering into a relationship today has any concept of this, and if asked I bet 99% would say HELL NO to the idea right out of the gate.

            So, in this environment, how does a man go about taking his “natural” role in a relationship? The women simply MUST submit to it willingly, or the entire thing comes crashing down like a house of cards.

          7. StingRay – “FYI: Pickard makes women tingle HARD.”

            LOL. I am a fan of Kirk. He was an asshole for sure, but he did shit HIS way. Pickard strikes me as more politician than a warship captain. In fact, the entire Next Gen franchise seems very “Utopian” and socialist to me. Everyone wants to play nice, even when under attack.

          8. Rollo – “Was he being immoral in what amounted to his saving his marriage by his methods?”

            No. Perhaps he was/is being a bit manipulative, but since he has his relationship’s best interests at heart I would say it is moral.

            But my issue isn’t really a moral one, or at least morality is only a small part. *I* know I would approach it with the relationship’s best interests in mind, but what *I* think is best for the relationship and what she thinks is best might be very different.

            In addition, most of those examples, while demonstrating a change from beta to alpha frame within the relationship, really doesn’t demonstrate any type of leadership to me at all. Not lying about looking at a hot woman isn’t being a leader, it’s simply being honest. Deciding where to go eat out can be a leadership decision, but only if I actually want to go somewhere specific, otherwise it’s just some random decision to make. Most of what I saw in the link you provided was just Dave sticking up for himself. If that is most of the trick, then I might simply be stressing over nothing at all. I’m seeing how I should be “leading” my relationship, but no one seems to be able to frame that into a simple set of instructions, so I can’t figure out what I have to do. If it is simply standing my ground and pushing back when shoved, then I’m spinning my wheels for nothing.

            To me that isn’t leading, it’s making sure I’m not a doormat.

            Am I really over thinking this? I can stand my ground indefinitely, but my goal is to not have to keep doing so until the day I die. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life dodging shit tests and re-establishing my “authority” over and over. That would be endlessly tiring.

    3. Ted,

      I know it is hard to wrap your head around the idea that women are somewhere between men and children when it comes to knowing what is best for them but it’s true.

      The only reason you continue to hold on to these flawed beliefs is because your logical man-brain has a hard time reconciling the disconnect between words and actions. When you begin to base your beliefs and decisions on the outcomes that you see around you rather than what women and society in general tells you that you SHOULD be believing and doing you will go from being a servant to society to being a master of reality.

      Words don’t mean shit. Women will tell you that they don’t want someone who dominates but their actions belie their words.

      1. GLC – “When you begin to base your beliefs and decisions on the outcomes that you see around you rather than what women and society in general tells you that you SHOULD be believing and doing you will go from being a servant to society to being a master of reality.”

        I’m starting to understand this, but it still feels an awful lot like “the ends justifies the means” in that you are basing decisions on how you want things to end instead of on what may or may not be “right”.

        Here is one of my issues letting this go: If I don’t play by the rules (whatever rules you want but for examples lets just say societies rules) I may very well get everything I want out of life. But, if everyone does the same, most if any of us will NOT get what we want, because much of what we each individually want is in conflict with what everyone else wants. I know beyond all doubt that there are people that DO NOT play by the rules, and even though they get what they want, they are labelled negatively because their desires go against the common good. I could easily be one of those people, but it would also make me a hypocrite, because I certainly expect everyone else to play by the rules, mostly because if they don’t life would be pure chaos.

        I believe the only reason humanity has made it this far is BECAUSE we put rules in place to punish non-conformist actions. I believe more people aren’t murdered simply because most people fear jail enough to keep them in line. And even though I may truly believe that *I* am better than most people, in the grand scheme of things, who the hell am *I* to make that decision and act on it?

        Like I said above, this goes way beyond male/female relations, and I don’t want to derail the conversation as I’m not sure how that flies here. :p

        1. There is a middle ground. You don’t have to choose between being a sociopath or a lap dog. You don’t have to completely throw away your morals. You just have to recognize when you aren’t getting a fair deal.

          1. Who gets to decide what’s a fair deal and what isn’t? What you’re advocating seems like the same chaos that Ted warns you about.

          2. The trick is figuring out what is or is not a fair deal. I mean, If I base that solely on what *I* want, it probably wont be fair for anyone else.

          3. Ted, please stop worrying about being fair. Who told you life is (or should be) fair? Equalists, socialists? Brainwash, hogwash.

            I think GLC was saying that you should question and suspend your belief in what you’ve been told by women and society. Instead base your beliefs on your first-hand experiences. Look at your immediate surroundings, peoples’ behaviors, and the results of your actions. Trust yourself to fathom the truth and make good decisions based on what you see, not what you have been told.

          4. Flahute – “Ted, please stop worrying about being fair. Who told you life is (or should be) fair? Equalists, socialists? Brainwash, hogwash.”

            Again, if everyone thinks and acts this way, life would be chaos. Every man for himself only works in small tribal societies where might actually makes right. In the Western world, what is LEGAL makes right, and the bottom line is the law is NOT on men’s side. How exactly do you propose a change of society not backed by the force of law? Of course life isn’t fair, and equality is an illusion. But, the law clearly does not recognize the “man’s place as leader” so the only way to actually enforce it is to find a woman WILLING to allow it. I don’t think there are too many women waiting in line to willingly give up their autonomy and agency.

        2. Actually, Ted, I think you’ve stumbled upon the meta-ethical problem known as the is-ought problem (look it up on wikipedia). As you pointed out it does go a bit beyond gender relations.

          It basically boils down to not being able to easily say what ought to be from what is. There isn’t much of a disagreement (among the manosphere) about what IS. But can you really say what OUGHT to be from the reality?

    4. Ted D wrote: “I understand that, but it still takes the responsibility from HER and puts in on MY shoulders. Why should I have to determine what is best for her, isn’t that her job?”

      Ted, brother, it most emphatically is not her job. It is your responsibility. Now, being “king of your own castle” sounds like it’s all fun and games and capricious assertions of strength, and it is against this immature understanding of power that feminism revolted. Less appreciated is the responsibility: “Uneasy lies the head that wears a crown.” So while feminists think they want the crown, you boyishly fear the crown, like a Prince Hal before he became Henry V. Yes, it sucks in many unacknowledged and underappreciated ways to be “the decider,” but it is your duty, so be a fucking man about it.

      What’s more, when you drill down even further, it is not even your job “to determine what is best.” This idea that you create your own reality and make shit up as you go is highly postmodern and unstable. It has led directly to the chaos into which we were born and with which we will struggle our entire lives, through accident of our birth in this most anomalous of generations.

      In Casey, the Wise Moderates of Postmodernity summed up this moral disaster with the proclamation:

      At the heart of liberty is the right to define one’s own concept of existence, of meaning, of the universe, and of the mystery of human life.

      No, and hell no! One can no more “define one’s own concept” of gravity or entropy or inertia than one can personally define the meaning of the universe. It is this intimidating and impossible understanding of responsibility that you fear, and it was never meant to be this way.

      Your job is to be the master of your oikos, one of many in the oikonomos (economy). You determine the direction of those who live under your roof, and you bear the consequences of the household. You run the race within hard moral limits just as a stockcar driver pushes for maximum speed without losing control of his vehicle — or attempting to transcend the limits of physics.

      And just as your household must act relative to the sovereign powers above you (man-made and natural law), your woman and your children act relative to your situational sovereignty. Not only is this an ancient, venerable, and well-tested arrangement, it is the only plausible arrangement given the limitations of man and woman. Only in the last hundred or so years have we begun to imagine ourselves limitless, and because of that we have created unprecedented upheaval wherein individuals like you wander around rudderless and confused about your duty.

      Your duty, son, is to “take[] the responsibility from HER and put[] i[t] on [YOUR] shoulders.” That’s why men have broad shoulders, superior strength, and authoritative voices.

      Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest…. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

      Matt

      1. Now, being “king of your own castle” sounds like it’s all fun and games and capricious assertions of strength, and it is against this immature understanding of power that feminism revolted.

        Well said, sir.

      2. “Ted, brother, it most emphatically is not her job. It is your responsibility. ”

        The law says otherwise. Show me were I am legally bound to take on this task, and I’ll be all over it. And the real rub is: she may even allow me to take that responsibility, but if I fail and/or go against her wishes, she has plenty of legal ways to put and end to it and fast. Most of them wouldn’t end favorably for me.

        This isn’t about whether or not I believe it is natural for the man to lead or not, it is completely about what is legally enforceable. We can talk all we want about how things SHOULD be, but there is no way to actually MAKE things this way. NO woman has any reason to tolerate anything she doesn’t want to, and she has plenty of legal tools at her disposal to get her will enforced. Even men that have the “perfect” relationship balance and are the “king of their castle” are only so because their GF/Wife allows it, regardless of what those men think. Because the second she finds a lawyer, your reign as king is over.

        1. Are you in danger of a civil union here Ted? You keep talking law and I thought she was your GF?

          Also, if she is happy being your “first mate” why would she bring legal recourse? She is more likely to be unhappy because you let her be the “captain” and you become the “first mate”. The whole Eat. Pray, Love thing. How many men that this happened to do you think were dominate in their relationships?

          1. We live together and have for several years. I found my way to the ‘sphere about 8 months into our relationship, give or take a few. We both have children living with us. We aren’t married, but obviously we are entangled all the same.

            And that is the catch 22 I find myself in mentally. I KNOW she won’t be happy as the captain, my first marriage and divorce proved that to me. But, I also can’t really force her to follow my lead either. And before we get too far down this rabbit whole, I’m not implying I am currently having any real issues in my relationship. Things are going well, but I was married for 12 years and for a good bit of the time things were going well there too. I’m trying to get a grip on exactly what I should be doing to ensure that things don’t end up where they were, and I feel pretty good about what I know so far.

            So what I have now is a young relationship that so far is going well. We haven’t had any real power struggles, but I often get the sense that there are some subtle ones going on behind the scenes, and it bothers me that I can’t tell for sure. My SO is not a ball busting bitch, but the honest truth is she can be as stubborn as a mule, and she has stated more than once that she feels an “equal” relationship is what she wants. I tried that route in my marriage, but I feel like I went too far towards the beta side then and perhaps something close to equal could work if I kept the right frame of mind. But I have NO idea how to “lead” and at the same time be considerate of her wishes. I really don’t run things that way. I’m more dictator and less democracy.

          2. Here we go. Now it makes more sense to me. I understood what you were saying before but something was missing. It was this But, I also can’t really force her to follow my lead either.

            No one wants you to force her to do anything, least of all her. A woman wants to follow a dominate man. Sure, there will be times that you make a decision that goes against what she wants. She may not want that one particular thing to happen but she will respect the “captain”. She will be happy with the overall situation.

            Leading with consideration for her feelings means you talk things out. You discuss decisions. Take her input into consideration and then you make the final decision. It doesn’t even have to be obvious that you made the final decision. If she is easy going chances are you will mostly be on the same page anyway.

            It means in other decisions you just say “Hey, we are going to go do X. Go get ready!” As in hey, I’m taking you out tonight. Go put on that great black dress. You say it nicely and in a fun way.

            She’s burnt out and stuff needs to get done around the house. You say “Leave it. Go do X instead and relax.” It will hopefully very rarely be bossy.

          3. Ok this isn’t at all my idea of “leading”, which is the root of the issue.

            “Sure, there will be times that you make a decision that goes against what she wants. She may not want that one particular thing to happen but she will respect the “captain”. She will be happy with the overall situation.”

            And I can live with this. I don’t expect to make her happy all the time, but the part *I* was missing is that she would still be happy over all even if some individual decisions don’t go her way. I have a hard time accepting this, and it seems to me that if this occurs too often she will start considering a new ship. As far as it goes, this doesn’t happen often and I actually can’t think of a single situation yet where I it has. Generally we come to some agreement, but again, that isn’t *MY* idea of leading. That is a compromise, which is perfectly acceptable, but not something I would do as a leader.

            “It means in other decisions you just say “Hey, we are going to go do X. Go get ready!” As in hey, I’m taking you out tonight. Go put on that great black dress. You say it nicely and in a fun way.

            She’s burnt out and stuff needs to get done around the house. You say “Leave it. Go do X instead and relax.” It will hopefully very rarely be bossy.”

            And I already do this regularly, but it doesn’t strike me as leading. I think my idea of leading is simply all wrong in terms of relationships. I didn’t see this growing up, I saw my grandfather who ruled with an iron fist, but only with the things he cared about. To me, what you are describing strikes me as a pretty egalitarian setup. Or pretty close to one anyway. It puts the man in the position of tie-breaker to me. Not so much running the show, but the final say if/when a consensus can’t be made.

            I’m also guessing that this varies from woman to woman, meaning that some prefer a more heavy-handed leadership approach while others prefer at least the image of an equal partnership? And, that being the case, for someone like me that doesn’t want to be heavy-handed, a woman that requires less actual leadership would be the best fit? and, the real work in all of this is trying differing amounts of “leadership” to see where the sweet spot is?

            *sigh* Does anyone actually enjoy this stuff? I mean, working out interpersonal crap? My friendships are much easier. If I piss of a buddy, we just don’t talk for months. :p

          4. I’m also guessing that this varies from woman to woman, meaning that some prefer a more heavy-handed leadership approach while others prefer at least the image of an equal partnership? And, that being the case, for someone like me that doesn’t want to be heavy-handed, a woman that requires less actual leadership would be the best fit? and, the real work in all of this is trying differing amounts of “leadership” to see where the sweet spot is?

            Yes, yes, and yes.

            I don’t think many women want to be lead by an iron fist. We do want responsibilities that align with our strengths and have the freedom to accomplish these under the man’s rule (as it were). I pretty much run our (the kids and mine) daily activities and the doings around the house. We homeschool and school is all me. But the final say in everything goes through my husband. He doesn’t micromanage, rather he checks in every once in a while to make sure there are no problems and to make sure we are on track. We rarely have disagreements about any of this and for a lot of the things with the kids I have the final say as I have far more information than he does. Therefore he defers to me. However, it is clear that this is conditional on my part. Any new, big decisions come up and I bring them to him with my opinion. Rarely do we have differing opinions yet he still has the final say. This is best for *us*. He doesn’t need to micromanage but if I run into a problem I know he is there for me to lean on.

            I look at it this way, I am in charge of the house and the children right here and right now. His responsibility is the family; past, present and future.

          5. Ahhhh OK. To me, what you just described is *my* idea of an egalitarian relationship. You each do what you are best at and split the rest. The only point I see that indicates a leadership role is your husband is the “tie breaker” if you are split in a decision.

            That is a far cry to me from a more formalized leadership role, which probably works for some, but I would guess not many.

        2. I hear you, Ted.

          All I can say is this: It’s submission, not subjugation. She must agree to be ruled. She must submit voluntarily. I take that responsibility on my shoulders, but if she tries to take it back, it’s an untenable power struggle.

          If I fail or she doesn’t like it, she surely can take matters into her own hands. And if she does decide to do so, she’s on her own. I know about all the horror stories of imputed income, wage slavery, punitive alimony, child support abuse, etc. But she’ll be on her own. She won’t want that. obviously. If she does want that, then everyone — including her — will have to live with the consequences of it.

          1. That’s about how I see it…

            I wish I’d found the ‘sphere before I started this relationship. I would have done things VERY differently. Not saying things are bad, but I would have approached the relationship differently, and would have been up front about some of my expectations. I would have made it clear that I intend to do things my way, and if she wasn’t willing to follow that then we had no future. Hell, when we got together I still wasn’t thinking about making sure I got anything I wanted at all, let alone clearly defined roles in the relationship. So now I have to try and put thing right while being involved. It’s almost like renegotiating the deal, and I don’t feel like I have the stronger ground to stand on.

            I know you found yourself in a bad spot as well, and you’ve managed to turn it around. I’m not in a bad spot yet, but I want to do my best to steer clear of that possibility at all costs. If I was single and looking, this would be simply a matter of laying it out up front and dealing with the fact that most women would not like the deal offered and leave. My option now is making the best of what I have (which arguably is pretty good, so I’m not complaining) and I don’t see any clear and easy path.

            The red pill goes down much easier when you are single.

          2. Ted:

            I can’t force my wife to stay with me. I can, however, force her to live with the consequences of her decisions.

            If she stays with me, she is expected to accept the good and bad that goes with it.

            If she leaves, I can force her to accept the consequences of that. If she leaves, her life will be very different from how it is now, and it won’t be all good.

        3. Ted,

          The simple fact that you are tenative about the law means that you are about 10x more likely to be a victim of it.

          I really don’t get it. We aren’t even talking about sexual advances here, we are talking about putting yourself in a position of leadership. How exactly are you going to get arrested for taking on a leadership role?

          I think you are WAAAAY to hung up on the idea this equalism bullshit and you bring up the law is merely an excuse to not move past it. I know, it has been drilled into ALL of our heads since we were little kids so it’s hard to see past it but if you want to avoid becoming a statistic you have to. This is all a giant shit test. Women don’t want you to believe that they want to be equal, they want you to see the BS for what it is. And when you do, you “pass”. It’s a test to weed out the weak. That’s why they are so good at convincing you otherwise.

      3. Ted D wrote:

        The law says otherwise. Show me were I am legally bound to take on this task, and I’ll be all over it. And the real rub is: she may even allow me to take that responsibility, but if I fail and/or go against her wishes, she has plenty of legal ways to put and end to it and fast. Most of them wouldn’t end favorably for me.

        This is the bleating of a sheep who is afraid to live. You can live to avoid conflict with the law, or you can live freely until the law reins you in. It is a matter of attitude.

        Our legalistic infatuations have reduced our manhood: rugged independence, presumption of innocence, citizen sovereignty. My counsel is to live boldly, and let the women/lesser men busybody themselves with regulatory niceties. I am the tornado; the rest of the herd can play FEMA and Red Cross.

        All I can say is, the women in my life would not dream of recourse to technicalities in the law. (This is along the lines of Roissy’s Beta : Rape :: Alpha : “It just happened!” formulation.) For lack of a better word, call it your “thrall.” Granted, lesser men will take this role too far and abuse their manly stature. But even that a woman will prefer! Hence their secret infatuation with criminals, abusers, and sociopaths.

        Women only revert to the protections of Daddy State when they are not being properly paternalized. A breakdown here is ultimately the man’s failure, which is why the complaints are misguided about Murray’s or Bennett’s challenging us to “man up.” If you are man enough, you become The Law of the household along the lines of Roman paterfamilias. Again, this role is not all “fun and games,” it can be quite daunting, particularly if you are of a certain fearful, fastidious, shrinking-violet mind frame.

        No responsibilities, no rights. Whiny, half-vaginalized “MRAs” need to revisit that eternal concept, and stop crying like women about how hard it is to be a man.

        Matt

  27. I was looking for a new elite men’s world. So, instead of talking I went to a foreign land, but their laws sounded like it was named after a woman and there was still females and girlie-men there too. I heard I was omega so I pretended to be a super-tough guy until I was told I had insecure little omega man syndrome. Twilight was when the beta vamp hiding behind a curtain said bring your sons and daughters to my castle dungeon for me to smear 50 shades of shtt in theirs and your faces, then with bloody eyes he replied to me dude bend over, I’m not a piggyback guy I said. To bring back 1946 I ran for office, but was not elected. I joined the amrish, but they kicked me out. I secretly hate everyone including myself so I sit in my adult diapers waiting on the bench. Don’t call me paranoid or a psychopath because my therapist doesn’t help me. I found the club of Monks, I don’t like them either, although they listen to me explain how it was better when we were kids, they call me Monk-E probably because I’m better than them, so finally it’s just us guys fading into oblivion.

  28. “…forcing women to acknowledge their own bullshit.”

    Just a minor note on terminology: here I prefer the term “cowshit”. That’s what it is, after all; let’s give credit where it’s due. The male is not responsible for the female hamster’s manure production.

  29. Ted,

    BTW, if you walk with a verbal, or non verbal attitude of “I make the rules here and if you’re going to be around me, it’s under my rules”, pussy doesnt run away from you scared, it doesnt go from the hills… instead it floods you, it comes running towards you, from the hills and beyond.

    Communication, for girls, is not a way to express what they really want and are, it’s not about honesty. Communication, for girls, is a way to get what they want. It’s a poker hand. You cant never take what a woman says at face value. You have to read what they “mean”, in other words, what they expect to get from it. So dont pay attention to the words, pay attention to what they respond to.

    1. Great stuff as always Yohami.

      BTW, if you walk with a verbal, or non verbal attitude of “I make the rules here and if you’re going to be around me, it’s under my rules”, pussy doesnt run away from you scared, it doesnt go from the hills… instead it floods you, it comes running towards you, from the hills and beyond.

      Saturday night, my GF and I watched In Time with Justin Timberlake. I actually thought it was a really good movie, especially in terms of being an allegory indictng our modern winner take all style capitalism. Anyways, we got into a discussion and I started pushing hard on her to really think about what it REALLY means to “earn” money especially in the context of a CEO who might make $50 million. Long story short, you got a bit emotional and nasty…granted it was 2:30 AM and she was tired.

      Anyways, I stated in no uncertain terms that it simply was unacceptable
      to get emotional over an intellectual discussion, and she went to bed and I did NOT kiss her goodnight as I usually do as you do NOT reward bad behavior.

      Yesterday, she approached me and apologized for being a bitch. I accepted her apology but reiterated getting emotional over a discussion was unacceptable. Part of being with the right woman though is being with someone who doesn’t push back and keep escalating the conflict.

      In my view, part of being a leader simply is setting the right frame, and being firm about what is acceptable and not acceptable.

      1. “In my view, part of being a leader simply is setting the right frame, and being firm about what is acceptable and not acceptable.”

        I’ve never considered setting boundaries and standing my ground a ‘leadership’ kinda thing. Responsible adults also shouldn’t make a habit of pushing boundaries either, but I certainly set boundaries for my children as part of my leadership role with them. I simply have a difficult time applying the same principles to a relationship with another adult. It appears I’m mistaken in believing that she should respect my boundaries simply because we are adults, which is why I keep asking where HER responsibility in this is. What I think you and others here are saying is I shouldn’t expect my SO to act like a rational adult despite the fact that legally she is labelled one.

        1. is I shouldn’t expect my SO to act like a rational adult despite the fact that legally she is labelled one.

          YES!!!!

          1. OK, so it’s back to dealing with irrational people, which is where my bone of contention is. I’m expected to handle my own emotional crap and in the very least contain hers. What does she do in return?

            Or, how about we go about it this way. If she were single and on her own, how would she deal with her emotional shit? Because I don’t understand how me being in the picture removes her responsibility to act like a rational adult. I kinda expect my mate to come to the table as pretty much a self-sufficient rational adult. I’m not expecting her to keep me “in check” somto speak, so why is it expected that I should have to do so for her? What the hell would she do without me?

            See, to me if I’m truly expected to handle her stuff and mine, then she should be pulling more of something else off my plate. This seems a lot like “let’s have an equal relationship as long as we agree, and when we don’t I will act like a brat until I get my way” which is bullshit. You can’t have it both ways: responsible adult when it suits you, or spoiled brat when it doesn’t.

          2. Ted,

            “If she were single and on her own, how would she deal with her emotional shit?”

            She would have girlfriends + beta orbiters to dump her emotional garbage into.

            “I don’t understand how me being in the picture removes her responsibility to act like a rational adult.”

            When has she behaved like a rational adult?

            “This seems a lot like “let’s have an equal relationship as long as we agree, and when we don’t I will act like a brat until I get my way””

            Yes, you’re describing a woman and her defacto set of rules. Now, are you going to accept them?

            If you dont, then you stamp your foot and set the rules: you expect agency and responsibility from her? her behaving like an adult? that’s not what she’s been doing, but you’re expecting her to? then she has to follow you, and respect you, and you’re leading her.

          3. Yohami- well holy shit man. That made totally perfect sense. If I want to be in a relationship with a responsible adult, I have to make her BE one. For shit’s sake that is so simple, and yet massively complicated of you buy into the idea that she should already be one herself.

            It shouldn’t be my responsibility to do so, but I guess my options are deal with bad attitude or step up. I can’t help but notice that this is at least a little demeaning though. We are all saying that a woman cannot be held responsible for her own emotions. I’m not saying that isn’t true, but it certainly would change a lot of shit legally if this were public ally accepted knowledge…

          4. It wasn’t demeaning until feminist made it so. And the laws here in the States were pretty well on track with this as well until women coerced men into changing them.

          5. Darn it. Didn’t close the html. Let me try again.

            I can’t help but notice that this is at least a little demeaning though. We are all saying that a woman cannot be held responsible for her own emotions.

            It wasn’t demeaning until feminist made it so. Also, the laws here in the States were pretty well on track with this as well until women coerced men into changing them.

  30. If she were single and on her own, how would she deal with her emotional shit?

    She would buy a cat.

    See, to me if I’m truly expected to handle her stuff and mine, then she should be pulling more of something else off my plate.

    Absolutely she should. With out a single doubt. This is why women stayed home and men worked. The woman would take care of the home and the man would provide it. She should be taking care of you. They way women are good at. We excel at the details hence the house and the children being our domain.

    1. LOL this is where we’ve been circling the wagons lately. We do both work, so I need to give more thought into how we break out responsibilities.

      What would you think is an equal setup if both people work full-time jobs? Because this may be the sticking point. I feel like her idea of an equal relationship is to split all household chores evenly. that being said, I have to handle the finances if I hope to have anything paid on time. And, I feel like I take more than half of the relationship responsibility already, before this conversation. We both work the same amount of hours in a week, but I make more and carry more of the household finances myself. And no matter how I might try to explain the conversation we are having here, she will not see things from my perspective at all. In fact, I’m pretty damn sure she would be pissed off at the concept of me having to handle her emotional crap, and certainly wouldn’t take well to being told she doesn’t have agency. 😛

      I want to operate with full honestly and disclosure, but I don’t see how that can happen. And without that, how can shit be distributed evenly? It would be like my boss totally denying a third of my work load and then being pissed off I couldn’t get everything done.

      I need some examples of normal, healthy relationships it seems. I can’t think of a single married couple I know that isn’t grappling with some of this stuff. And I haven’t told my male friends at all about the ‘sphere or the red pill, because I haven’t figured out how to make it all work for myself yet.

      1. And no matter how I might try to explain the conversation we are having here, she will not see things from my perspective at all.

        You don’t explain anything. You just do it. If you try to reason with a woman on something like this you will be met with contempt or even hostility. As stingray mentioned they aren’t even aware of what is going on. They are completely immersed in the girl-world to the point where you absolutely have to use actions to push those hindbrain buttons.

  31. Rollo/everyone – thanks for the input. I know I’m a pain in the ass with this, but I’ve been agonizing over this particular point for months as MikeC pointed out. This thread has been more helpful than the last 6 months elsewhere. I don’t have all the answers I’m looking for, but at least I feel like you all are being honest with me without added bullshit to pretty it up.

      1. So in short: I need to stop being worried about being a chauvinist and misogynist? And despite the fact that my SO may give lip service to the “equality” shtick she will not only accept my leadership but actually wants me to take it IN SPITE of what she says?

        The entire setup is a giant shit test?…

        I really hate interpersonal drama. At least with men you know where you stand. All this cloak and dagger shit just pisses me off. Is it really just too much to ask for adults to act responsibly and with a rational attitude?

        Never mind. I know that answer already. It’s BS but I know damn well people don’t take responsibility for shit, and acting rationally is no fun, so why would anyone do it?

        I was born about 80 years too late…

        1. At least with men you know where you stand. All this cloak and dagger shit just pisses me off. Is it really just too much to ask for adults to act responsibly and with a rational attitude?

          Ted, you’re forgetting, all of this is unconscious on the part of the women. Most women don’t have a clue about any of this. There is no giant secret conspiracy that they pull us into as children. We are just oblivious to it. Basically, it is like a shit test. We are unconscious to those as well.

          Heh, we think we are acting rationally. Ever see the look on a woman’s face when you call her irrational? That why there is so much anger. To her, it is utterly rational. To the man, she is talking about oranges and he is talking about history. It’s why it is so important to take the time to teach us. No one else will do it for us anymore. They just assume it is already there. It’s not.

  32. Yohami nailed it.

    You have a flawed view of attraction, Ted.

    Women are happiest when they are being assimilated into the world of a man they are attracted to. You are approaching this from the angle of “what does she want” which creates the opposite effect. This doesn’t mean that her desires go out the window, it just means that she cares more about what YOU care about when she is attracted to you, and the fact that you pull her into your world rather than catering to her desires amplifies this attraction.

    Stop listening to women when they say that they want to be equal, because they absolutely do NOT want to be equal. Your woman is simply parroting the feminist script.

    1. “Stop listening to women when they say that they want to be equal, because they absolutely do NOT want to be equal. Your woman is simply parroting the feminist script.”

      That sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen… At least according to the seemingly endless “equality” type classes I’ve endured as part of the corporate world for almost two decades.

      It makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall. So I’m supposed to continue participating in “polite” society while knowing that all this equality stuff is BS, and I can never call women out on it without fear of legal repercussion? I have to treat my SO one way despite her saying she wants to be treated another, and I can never expect her to admit it?

      I know I’m about to sound like a 4 year old throwing a tantrum, but seriously: how is any guy expected to successfully deal with this shit? It’s like living a lie every. single. day. What’s worse? I’ve already been living that same lie every day, I just didn’t know it until recently. Now that I know the truth, I want everyone to know so we can fix it, not continue living the lie. Living the lie is what causes me stress. It forces me to purposefully act in a manner that is not congruent with my thoughts, and I already feel like I do that just to deal with “people” in general. the idea of having to do the same with my SO means I have no place to just be myself. I have to keep up an act for her as well, since I can’t “let on” that I’m “leading” her or I’ll hurt her sensibilities. So I fake it at work, and now I may have to fake it at home.

      I can see why some guys say fuck it and just don’t bother. This is almost as much work as my job, and in many ways its worse since I don’t care if I hurt someone’s feelings in the office.

      1. It makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall. So I’m supposed to continue participating in “polite” society while knowing that all this equality stuff is BS, and I can never call women out on it without fear of legal repercussion? I have to treat my SO one way despite her saying she wants to be treated another, and I can never expect her to admit it?

        Yea, except for the legal repercussions part. Where is this coming from? You don’t call women out on it because they aren’t even aware of it most of the time and it only serves to make you look weak.

        You have been drinking waaay too much of the feminist kool aid. There are real dangers of this in the workplace but that’s just another shit test to weed out the losers. Here’s an SNL skit that shows how it works-

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBVuAGFcGKY

        Knock on wood, but never in my life have I felt the slightest hint of legal threat from a woman. And I have been with more than my share.

        1. Scrap the legal talk. My issue was that there is no way to force a woman to accept leadership, which is still true. StingRay implied that a woman will naturally want to follow, and if not I guess the answer is to move on to another that will. I already placed my bets so to speak, so I need to make the best of the hand I currently hold.

          1. Ted,

            “My issue was that there is no way to force a woman to accept leadership”

            If it’s forced it’s not leadership. But moreso, women submit to it when its “natural”.

            “a woman will naturally want to follow, and if not I guess the answer is to move on to another that will.”

            Yes, but first become the version of you that is naturally dominant. Which is more about letting go your self constraints and learning to accept and assert yourself, than it is about forcing anything on anybody.

            Force means resistance. Wrong setup.

          2. Trust me, you don’t want a relationship with a girl who doesn’t want you to take the lead.

          3. Rollo – “Fold.”

            I’ve been in a much worse place, been through divorce, and survived. I can do this, I just need to get my head in the right place, which is to say get over feeling like I’m being manipulative, sneaky, and deceiving. If I don’t do it now, I may never get it done, and I’ll find myself in the same place with another woman. I have to get this shit together. Folding would just be throwing in the towel again.

            GLC – That isn’t my problem so much as just trying to work out the specifics of it. As StingRay pointed out, there are varying degrees of leadership, and I’m just trying to work out how far I should push it. My SO has already demonstrated that she is willing to accept leadership from me, I’m just uncomfortable with the “job” (so to speak) and not sure how much leadership is actually necessary. I’ll get push back, but so far none of it has been more than token resistance and perhaps a little pouting.

            My issue is that I’m in uncharted territory, and to be honest I’m very risk averse. I can do anything I set my mind to, it’s really just about setting my mind to it, which means going over the “plan” repeatedly until I feel like I’ve resolved any foreseeable problems. This particular issue has no real “plan” other than to improve things, and that really trips my organized and structured nature into a tizzy. I’m looking for some kind of instruction manual and/or benchmarks along the way, and there just aren’t any short of “is your relationship healthy and successful?”

            Social shit just isn’t black and white, and I simply dislike working in the grey. I got into IT to avoid dealing with people after all. 😛

  33. Ted, you’ve been pretty upfront so let me give you a personal example: In 2005 the company I work for asked if I wanted to relocate to Orlando. That day I essentially decided to uproot my family from Nevada and leave my friends, our families and everything we knew behind.

    The day I decided this I sat Mrs. Tomassi down at our usual sushi place and said, “we’re moving to Florida in 4 months.” What do you suppose she said to that?

    “What about my career here? What about my Mom and your Mom, Dad, Brother? What about my friends? We don’t know anyone there, we’d be starting over completely, don’t I have a say in any of this?”

    What she said was “when are we leaving?” For as much frame control as I exercise even I was expecting some resistance and she could tell. Then she said “you’re my husband, I go where you go.”

    Most guys in this scenario would’ve either simply passed up a once in a lifetime opportunity for fear of upsetting their full and ‘equal’ partner, or would’ve had to live with the resentment and reminding of every fault after having ‘forced’ their wife to comply.

    I’m writing a post on this for you now, but for brevity understand, there is no such thing as egalitarian equality. Even for homosexuals, there is a dominant and submissive partner. It doesn’t make one an evil controller, nor the other a complacent doormat, it’s just that someone has to drive the car. Either you trust that person to drive or you take that control away from them.

    Power abhors a vacuum, if you are unable or unwilling to be the control the frame, a woman’s innate need for security will compel her to control it for you. You can be the Dom or the Sub, just know that you’ll only be the Sub for as long as it takes her to find a Dom to drive the car.

    1. “You can be the Dom or the Sub, just know that you’ll only be the Sub for as long as it takes her to find a Dom to drive the car.”

      No matter how confused and frustrated I may be with all this, I know the above statement is true. I’ve lived it and my divorce proved it to be true. My goal is to figure out exactly what it takes to be the driver, because I honestly don’t know how, and everything I see that I’m supposed to be doing flies completely in the face of “common wisdom”. And I realize that much of this is simply social programming I have to get past, but it isn’t like I can just head down to the local Man’s club for some moral support. Those guys are all complaining about their dismal marriages. 🙁

      Again, thanks for the guidance.

      1. Ted D needs to become familiar with Athol Kay’s Captain/First Officer concept.

        No boat can be run by a committee. That insane fem-democratic concept has wrecked our culture for a hundred years. And to see Ted D internalize and thereby unconsciously and indirectly propagate that fallacy is tragic.

        Proper leadership does not infantalize its charges. It dignifies them through delegation and division of labor. The lazy thinkers who originated and insisted upon feminism thought they could make natural followers — 75% of men and 99% of women — into leaders just by calling them so, when all this while we should have been concentrating on fashioning the sex better disposed to leadership into a role they have always handled with proper training.

        Now we groan silently under an ass-backward system, yearning either to submit to a superior (and being ashamed at the very thought!) or to be absolved of all responsibility for leadership, rather than orienting the culture toward the massive challenge of making boys into men.

        Matt

        1. I actually started my journey to the red pill at MMSL. I’ve read Athol’s book, twice.

          My issue isn’t with his model at all, it’s with the fact that no one (at least most men and just about all women) don’t want to admit that this is the preferred setup in a relationship. I’m good with it, but I want it out in the open. Otherwise it is all a deception intended to keep the peace.

          Maybe its a matter of time? StingRay seems to be fine with it, so perhaps after being in such a relationship, women come to realize it is actually what they want and acknowledge it outright?

          Look, I’m completely good with “leading” my SO in whatever capacity is required. But, I want her to realize what she is asking of me, and accept it openly. I’m not going to pretend in public that we are “equals” if I’m the one doing the heavy lifting. But, as StingRay also pointed out, much of this stuff is unconscious, so I don’t know how she would ever recognize all of the work I’m putting in. So, she may very well still expect us to be equals while the entire time I feel like I’m pulling 75% of the weight.

        2. If you please her (by being dominate) you may very well find that she simply falls into her natural role of her wanting to please you. My opinion is that you are wrong in wanting to bring this out in the open with her. There is nothing for her to admit as she doesn’t actually know what she wants. If you try to bring this into the open with her, she will resent you for it. Bring to the relationship what you want it to be and see what happens. No one can give you a manual. You have to create your own.

          1. “There is nothing for her to admit as she doesn’t actually know what she wants. ”

            And its wrong of me to want her to understand what she wants?

            “If you try to bring this into the open with her, she will resent you for it.”

            So teaching her about her own nature is a bad thing? For Christ’s sake, is there anything logical at all about dealing with a woman? I feel like we are talking about a species other than human. I get that men and women are different, but honestly, we all have the capacity for self examination and rational thought. All I want is for her to understand her nature, but somehow that ruins the “magic” of it all? Is it too much to expect people to figure thier own selves out before they expect someone else to do it for them? I feel like not knowing the WHY of it makes her an incomplete person. I can’t stand “feeling” or “thinking” a certain way without knowing why. I simply want her to ask herself WHY about her own motivations. I’m not perfect, but at least I do my best not to act on things I don’t understand. Living the way you describe is leaving an awful lot to emotion and chance. Not knowing why something upsets you give IT the power to upset you again.

            I want to bang my head against the wall again.

          2. So teaching her about her own nature is a bad thing?

            The way that you want to go about doing it will only blow up in your face. You cannot explain it to her. She won’t hear you.

            Is it too much to expect people to figure thier own selves out before they expect someone else to do it for them?

            No it’s not. But you are going to have to give her time to do this. She is not going to get this by sitting down and listening to you talk about it with her. She may figure it out on her own with some direction from you (ie. you not putting up with shit tests), but until you give her some time to contemplate this on her own, if you try to reason it out with her, you will lose her rational side within the first sentence. The feelings will overwhelm her and then you have lost. It’s not worth it.

            I feel like not knowing the WHY of it makes her an incomplete person. I can’t stand “feeling” or “thinking” a certain way without knowing why.

            You are projecting your own feelings onto her. As long as the two of you are happy and you are both getting much of what you want from the relationship who cares whether or not she understands it? What’s important is that you are getting her respect. She will understand that and it is enough.

          3. “You are projecting your own feelings onto her. As long as the two of you are happy and you are both getting much of what you want from the relationship who cares whether or not she understands it? What’s important is that you are getting her respect. She will understand that and it is enough.”

            Yeah I can easily see I am projecting. I expect everyone to be AT LEAST as self aware as I am, because i don’t think I’m all that far along. It seems that compared to the “muggles”, I’m leap years ahead. And it frustrates me to no end…

            OK so it is reasonable to expect her to figure this out (although she is already 33 and should have figured this stuff out like a decade ago…) but in the meantime *I* can expect to do “extra work” until she can pull her own weight?

            I hope you can at least understand why this frustrates me so much. I’ve already done a lot of this “self examination” bullshit to try and get my head on straight. What you and others here are telling me is now I have to help HER do the same? And at the same time pretend that we are “equal partners?” If I have to do all the heavy mental lifting, then there is no equality to speak of. And if there is no equality, then pretending there is serves NO purpose but to add to her delusions. That makes me a willing participant in my own frustration. LOL. It sounds so completely ridiculous…

            I really should have started here and not at MMSL…

    2. Ted D wrote:

      For ******* sake, is there anything logical at all about dealing with a woman? I feel like we are talking about a species other than human. I get that men and women are different, but….

      Do you yell at infants for being so stupid too?

      … honestly, we all have the capacity for self examination and rational thought.

      Indeed, men are the more rational sex. But don’t toot your own horn so much, chief, just because you are a late member to the club. You are less rational than you think: a man who has abjured his manly role has less use for reason than do proper men, and they are therefore, out of disuse and spiritual flabbiness, not as “logical” as they pretend to be. We XYers begin with a relative advantage to the XX by virtue of our balls, but balls, like any inheritance, can be prodigiously squandered.

      We talk shit about women around here because, well, it’s a men’s club. It goes with the scotch, cigars, and mahogany-paneled draw rooms. Indeed, women are rational creatures, in some ways as rational as us. But they are steeped in cultural and physiological pressures that agitate against their rationality, and to remove them from such pressures is to denude their nature, unsex them, and then ask those epicene grotesqueries to perform. To make women as logical as men is not worth the mutilation of so beautiful a sylphic creature.

      Come, you spirits
      That tend on mortal thoughts, unsex me here,
      And fill me from the crown to the toe top-full
      Of direst cruelty! make thick my blood;
      Stop up the access and passage to remorse,
      That no compunctious visitings of nature
      Shake my fell purpose, nor keep peace between
      The effect and it! Come to my woman’s breasts,
      And take my milk for gall, you murdering ministers,
      Wherever in your sightless substances
      You wait on nature’s mischief! Come, thick night,
      And pall thee in the dunnest smoke of hell,
      That my keen knife see not the wound it makes,
      Nor heaven peep through the blanket of the dark,
      To cry ‘Hold, hold!’

      — Lady Macbeth

      Matt

  34. And this is why Rollo’s Blog is one of the best in the Manosphere; heck the whole internet. It has help me have a deeper understanding of the “philosophies” & “why” Game works that no other blog has come close to explaining. Keep up the good work RT. You are definitely an inspiration to your fellow man. *Claps*

  35. My SO has already demonstrated that she is willing to accept leadership from me, I’m just uncomfortable with the “job”

    Unfortunately it is in fact a “job”, and you can easily be fired without notice, as you learned from your previous marriage. How bad do you want to keep your job this time around? That’s what it all boils down to.

    1. Yes and no. It is a matter of how badly I want this to work. But to some extent it is also about how much I want to lower my standards as well. I’m expecting a fully functioning adult partner, not another dependent. I simply might be asking for too much there, and if that’s the case I need to start asking myself if I want the job at all. I’m good with having final say in big decisions, picking where we go to eat, or whatever. But I don’t know that I want to be responsible for another person’s mood, well being, and happiness for the rest of my life. I don’t have pets because I don’t want another being to take care of. I’m SO looking forward to our kids growing up and getting out that I can hardly contain the excitement because it means no longer being responsible for anyone other than myself.

      And please keep in mind, I am not painting a picture of my current relationship here at all. So far I’ve made good progress in “taking charge” in the bedroom. She liked it, I liked it, we moved on. So far I’m not finding myself having to deal with any bitchfests or unreasonable moods, but I sometimes feel like she is pushing me a little bit on occasion. I’m simply trying to plan for the worst, which means I’m trying to keep the worst from happening. I’m a bit like a boy scout in that I constantly look at situations and try to plan ahead for issues. I’m in project and risk management, so it’s kinda what I do. Right now my relationship is good, I want to keep it that way long term. I don’t want to experiment, because I don’t know how to properly measure success and certainly don’t want to degrade things while trying to improve them. In short, right now I’m trying to solve problems that aren’t necessarily there so that IF they show up, I’m ready for them.

      I’m beginning to think that this is not a reasonable expectation. I don’t think I can manage my relationship like a project, and that puts me in new territory in terms of exactly what the hell I should do then. I don’t “shoot from the hip”, I’m not “adventurous and exciting”, and I usually do my best to avoid danger in general. I feel like I should be actively DOING something, but much of what is being said here is more about NOT doing something, and by that I mean simply standing your ground and not taking shit. To me that sounds like how I behave at work, it seems adversarial.

      1. Ted:

        You are responsible for the decisions and directing the course of your lives together. You are not, however, responsible for her moods, her feelings, her well-being or her happiness.

        You are not responsible for another person’s conduct, actions, or feelings.

        You cannot make your SO happy. She has her circumstances, and she voluntarily chooses to be happy or unhappy.

        1. Well that was what I believed, but unless I’m reading wrong, that isn’t what I’m being told now. IF I want/expect a happy relationship, it seems I AM at least on some level responsible for her moods, happiness, and feelings. Sure, I can go on doing whatever the hell I want and let her get mad, leave, or whatever, but that doesn’t seem to be the recipe for long term success. I know I can’t literally “make her happy”, but it seems like a lot of the things described here are simply ways of manipulating her to be “happy”, which to me is the exact same damn thing, other than by this method I will have to expend a good deal of time and energy to create an environment where she will be “happy”.

          See, here is my thing. She makes me happy simply by being around. I enjoy spending time with her, but I also don’t expect her to “work around” my logical thinking and general lack of emotional response to “make me happy”. I know she doesn’t think like me, and I don’t expect her to. But, me doing all of this IS her “expecting” me to act differently to make HER happy. It isn’t the same at all. And, even if I DO all this stuff, the best I get is a happy SO? NO credit for busting my ass? No break on doing dishes, or laundry, or whatever because I had to twist my head around just to keep her content?

          Yes, I realize she doesn’t ‘realize’ she expects all this, which is why I want to tell her. I’m good with doing it all, but not without some acknowledgement of all the damn work I’m putting in.

          That is my definition of a thankless fucking job. All the work, none of the credit.

      2. Ted C wrote:

        … I need to start asking myself if I want the job at all. I’m good with having final say in big decisions, picking where we go to eat, or whatever. But I don’t know that I want to be responsible for another person’s mood, well being, and happiness for the rest of my life. I don’t have pets because I don’t want another being to take care of.

        You are a man-child, an overgrown boy, a discredit to my sex. Take your faux free-spirit faggotry elsewhere. We don’t get to choose our duties. We can only choose to renounce them, which you are so desperately trying to find a legitimate way to do. Which is repulsive.

        And besides, you over-interpreted the mandate. You are not responsible for her “mood” or “happiness.” But you are responsible for her well-being. This idea that we must fixate on moodiness and what makes us happy is part of the modern perversion of priorities.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAVoQfoU0dQ

        You take an oath before your God and pledge eternal loyalty to your spouse, and she abrogates that by casually declaring one day, “I’m just not happy”? The fact that a woman makes life-altering decisions for you, herself, and your children over this latter-day American mythos about a right to happiness? Your fault, weakling.

        The idea must be snuffed out in the cradle, or it must be rigorously disabused from her through your own consistency and strength (and against the culture). Life is not about making Mr. and Mrs. Ted C happy. The universe doesn’t give a fuck about what you expected out of life. You are not supposed to be nice. You are enjoined to be good, which quite often makes you and others around you something less than an atmosphere “happy smiley face 🙂 😀 🙂 😀 “. What a nation of soft brats we have raised. No wonder why the shaggy-haired emo pussies we now call “men” are drug addled from boyhood and delusional about women.

        Matt

        1. First of all, fuck you. You really don’t know shit about me, my sense of duty, or how seriously I take my responsibilities. All you know for sure is I’m completely clueless about women. It’s all fine and well for you to sit in judgement over me because I am stupid, but don’t ever assume that my ignorance makes me weak willed or irresponsible. All this bullshit I’m going through is BECAUSE I want to be a responsible mate for my SO. If I didn’t take this shit seriously I wouldn’t give a fuck, which strangely enough seems to be part of the solution.

          And I am not currently married but I do live with my SO and our children. I realize that *i* am resposible for my failed marriage. How the hell do you think I ever found MMSL and HUS? I was crushed when I first realized just how much a willing participant I was in my divorce, and I decided to never let it happen again, which has finally brought me here.

          Kick me in the ass all you want, but don’t question my sense of duty or dedication. I may be ignorant, but I’m not some lazy fucking waste of flesh trying to get by with minimum effort. I just want to do shit right without making any stupidly obvious mistakes, and frankly almost having my shit wrecked by divorce has my panties in a bunch.

          And thanks.

          1. I’m not your dad, so you can save the teenage hysterics. And you can save the “You really don’t know shit about me” for the forums where people still believe in NAMALT and Precious Little Snowflakes. I really do know quite a bit about you because I know your type, but leave that aside. By asserting you break the mold and assuming certain moral physics don’t apply to you is one of the better indications that your predicament is as typical as I claimed it is.

            Further, I wasn’t referring to you as an emo pussy. I was saying your tendency to shrink from duty (“I don’t know that I want to be responsible for another person[]….”) places you along the same continuum of the younger shaggy haired brats who have renounced responsibility altogether, and that is dangerous slope to be sliding down. In other words, there but for the grace of God go you. The weeping, lost manboy is the end-point of renouncing responsibility.

            “I don’t know that I want”? Who asked you what you want? To what kind of mind does that question even occur? To women and bratty complainers afraid of/baffled by manhood. That was whom I was criticizing, whom I can’t stand to hear whine, who disrespects me by his very presence. Men do what needs to be done, whatever challenges lie before them. They shut the fuck up about it, and do it.

            It’s true: I don’t know you. But what little you chose to reveal to us, and the way you have reacted, indicates how distorted your understanding of manhood is. Did you think we would sympathize with your plight, cry on each other’s shoulders, and bond over crumb cake? Men toughen each other up by beating on each other. Gird yourself better.

            Matt

  36. Stingray:

    “Even the most well grounded and mature woman will still look to a man for direction and emotional security.
    A man she can depend on to give her this is like air.”

    I was complaining about western women to a man that discovered the red pill by himself and is very wise with regards to anything related to gender relations and he said that one of the reasons the women are so hardened and bitchy and unfeminine is that there are so few men of the sort Stingray talks about in their lives that they are not just not supplied with this dose of masculine support but don`t actually imagine themselves getting it. The result is they become as single almost like women in relationship with betas.

  37. Ted D:

    “If I was into BDSM, I would need my submissive’s consent before proceeding to “dominate” her, correct? If I’m going to socially “dominate” her (which is to say be “king of my castle” the way described here) should I not at least get some form of approval from her first? And, I would suspect if I asked the question, I would get a resounding NO (since I know my SO claims to want an egalitarian relationship) which would then mean that my taking the lead goes directly against her stated will, regardless of if it is the right or wrong thing to do.”

    THe answer socially is to do take the lead (properly with enough conviction and authority and ability to stand up to her initial resistance/testing) and then se how she responds. There is your answer. Sexually you don`t necessarily have to ask so much either. I just start bossing them around and see how they respond and if they respond well I increase the domination. Some things you do need explicit aproval for though.

    1. Sexually I’m good. I would be lying if I didn’t admit that at first I was more than apprehensive about dominating in the bedroom, but her enthusiastic support got me past that pretty quickly. She takes direction well.

      The social stuff is just more deeply seeded in my head, coupled with the fact that I’m really just not very socially smart. I can appear to be socially adept, but it’s mostly me emulating expected behaviors. I don’t like “people” for the most part, and never put any effort into becoming a “people person”. I’ve had a talk or two early on in my “career” with HR, mostly because I simply don’t care what people think or feel about something I do or say, and I had to learn the hard way to at least pretend to consider other people’s feelings as important. The desire for some type of consent derives directly from my experiences being smacked down whenever I attempted to go my way, and only by learning to ‘play nice’ have I managed to make it this far in the corporate world. I get that what happens in my home and what happens in the office aren’t the same, but the clear message I’ve been forced to ingest for over two decades now is: women should never be treated as anything but equal.

      What we are discussing here certainly isn’t about equal treatment, and in fact is directly stating that on some level women not only want but NEED to be led by a man. Of course it’s going to trip all my alarms and whistles. This is the kind of stuff that starts harassment complaints. It doesn’t take hitting on a woman for that, just say something she can make ‘sexist’ and you may find yourself sitting in an office in the HR dept. being signed up for a seminar on equality in the work place.

      1. “This is the kind of stuff that starts harassment complaints. ”

        Like, what? what exactly do you picture yourself saying or doing that will get you a complaint?

        1. In my relationship? Nothing.

          But I just posted on the other thread that I’ve had a couple run-ins with HR in my past because I’m obviously mistaken that women can be reasonable and logical.

          If I spoke my mind about half of what I truly think, I’d never have another “career” position again. As far as what I might say? Well, I learned my lesson. Telling a female co-worker she is being an emotional twit is sexist. I didn’t know that before I was “re-educated”, I just assumed it meant I thought she was being an emotional twit. I had no idea only women could be that…

          But, obviously, if I told my SO she was being an emotional twit, she would not sue me. So no legal concern there. She could however leave, and I’m in gray area legally there. We aren’t married, but we live together, and we both have children living in the house. I’m not the slightest bit concerned at the moment because things are good, but I’m trying to figure out how to KEEP them good long term.

          1. This is why real men are entrepreneurs, business owners, and independent contractors. I would last about ten seconds with some imperious “HR department” (which are notoriously staffed by women, correct? I am proud that I don’t even know…) before laughing at their absurd expectations. I cringe to even enter the post office or DMV. The nausea descends on me with the fluorescent glow.

            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnLDMqPBeKQ

            I write the “harassment” policies in my office, and as for the cartoon code that petarded Clinton, all I can say is, come and get me, coppers. I insist that the girls who “work” for/with me put the ass in harass, or get out of the way of the Men At Work.

            We’ve diagnosed the problem for you, Ted. Take a baby step or make a global change in your life. You don’t have to go start a business. But do something in the direction of independence.

            Matt

          2. King A – “This is why real men are entrepreneurs, business owners, and independent contractors”

            I was told growing up that I would never own a business, or be a CEO. I’m a bastard child of a first generation Polish immigrant that was P & D’d by a ‘cad’ and have been told my “lot in life” since i can remember. I’ve managed to hold down an IT career since 1994 (despite several early encounters with sexual harassment and HR) and get a college degree, which is a first for my family.

            I’m not trying to go all Maury on you, but it’s easy for someone that truly believes they can do anything to look down on someone that doesn’t. Up until a few years ago, I truly believed that my life would never be any better than this. That the most I had to look forward to was retiring, when I could finally do what *I* wanted with my life, and my obligations to my children were fulfilled. Then my wife said “she wasn’t happy” and “she loved me but wasn’t in love with me” (I fucking hate that it is so cliche that it’s in Athol’s book) and I saw it all come crumbling down.

            Three years later I’m in better physical shape, I’m making more money, and I’m just starting to have hope that I can still salvage my ass. You are correct that I’m finally seeing things clearly, and at the moment I’m somewhere between wanting to kick myself in the ass repeatedly and trying to catch my breath. I want more than anything else to get this right. I would like my children to see at least one decent relationship in their lives before they have to face this themselves. I don’t want my son to grow up believing his “lot in life” is to work for someone else until he gets so old that he can’t enjoy living, and I don’t want my daughter to expect a man to do so for her and her children.

            I’m working on it, I really am. But I’m not just fighting years of misinformation about women here, I’m fighting years of misinformation about life. I find myself in a “career” I really didn’t want simply because I allowed myself to believe I could never do better. And the worst part is I’ve been PROUD of that fact. I was proud that I did better than my family before me, that I did more than I was told I could, and the God’s honest truth is it doesn’t mean shit. At best it is a tool, a means to an end, a way to make money to support my family, but it is no accomplishment to display for the world.

            But, that’s fine. It just means that what I thought was my ‘meaning’ in life was bull. I have to find new meaning.

          3. Just in here checking in on Rollo’s patient, Ted D. How you doing? Pill going down OK? Vitals good? Eyes open? Clear thinking? Insight good?

            The patient is making good progress, but still requires some observation. We’ll keep the patient here for a couple of days. Dr. Tomassi would like his confidence/dominance levels and self-esteem levels taken every 8 hours. We’ll administer some further red pill in the morning, and discharge plan him in a few days with a prescription for reading up here and getting to the gym.

          4. I’m hanging in there. Still somewhere between utter amazement and mild nausea, but it’ll pass.

            I’ve been walking daily for months and was actually down at the YMCA a week back picking up membership info.

            Confidence is holding, but I feel like a real schmuck right now, so don’t expect too much. Dominance is gonna take some time, but it helps for now to simply frame it as “don’t take any shit” and we’ll go from there. I need to re-frame all of my thinking, not just the stuff regarding relationships and women. In fact, my ‘frame’ in that respect is probably just fine, I just need to stop worrying about it and move on to more important stuff.

            My blood pressure and heart rate are probably up at the moment, partly because I’m a bit pissed off that at 41 I’m having to do all the shit I should have accomplished when I was 20-something. But that’s fine. Anger is a good motivator for me.

            All in all, I’ll live.

          5. Ted,

            I skimmed many of the recent comments…but here are some thoughts. Try to get out of your head so much. I’m an analytical type, but you are overanalyzing, overthinking, and seem to have a desire to want to oververbalize these things to your SO. Rollo has made an excellent point in the past about the tendency of beta guys to want to vomit everything out. You do NOT need to talk through every single detail with your SO about these dynamics. You just have to DO and take action and than observe the response, and course correct, and calibrate.

            You need to stop thinking about this stuff like a Six Sigma Black Belt process manager with flowcharts and precise measurements and start thinking in terms of the frame you project. Go reread and really think about the comments Yohami and Stingray have posted ,especially Stingray. She is probably the most self-aware woman I’ve encountered in terms of believing able to step outside herself and analyze her own emotional reactions as a woman to specific male behavior. She had some great comments about why you absolutely should NOT be verbalizing every little thing to your SO.

            One thing I think you need to do is stop looking for guidance in the wrong places and from the wrong people and I think you know exactly what I mean. From your own description, it sounds like things with your SO are in good shape, so you may be overthinking/getting worked up for nothing.

          6. Mike C – “You do NOT need to talk through every single detail with your SO about these dynamics”

            Yeah, well, this comes from belief that we were supposed to be “equal” partners. By that I mean, I felt like I should tell her what’s going on with me and my thoughts, because my naive belief was that I owed it to her.

            Instead, what I’m figuring out is I should be thinking of her kinda like a kid at Disneyland. She doesn’t have any idea how the rides work, and she doesn’t want to know who the guy behind the curtain is. It’s disappointing in a way, because I really would like my mate to truly KNOW me. But that doesn’t seem likely.

            Who the hell do I get to be ME with? Is it really our lot in life to have no one that truly understands us? I know it sounds “pussy-new aged-listens to Yanni” to say it, but I have to be able to spill my guts to someone on occasion. THIS was what I thought “moral support” from a mate was supposed to be, but if I can’t even tell her what’s bothering me, she certainly can’t support me through it.

            StingRay – thanks for the links. I’m probably going to talk to someone there to get a good idea of how I should approach this. I have NO desire to really bulk up, I just need to keep burning off fat, and although walking is certainly helping a great deal, it isn’t going to work off the chest, gut, and arm flab at all. Mostly I just need to tone all that stuff up.

            But hey, my legs are looking sculpted! Hauling all my extra ass around on these hikes is really putting them through the works.

          7. Fuck me sideways…

            OK. I can come here and discuss this forever, but the truth is I need to knock this shit out against someone. It’s how I think through stuff. NONE of my friends is even close to knowing anything at all about this stuff. They are musicians and IT people. The one friend I *think* could handle this the best (and probably use the knowledge) is on marriage number 3, but so far this one is holding.

            How do I get this in front of him? Honestly, if I send him here first, I think he will be overwhelmed and probably just tell me you all are crazy and I’m going to fuck up my relationship thinking like this. I could buy him Athol’s book, but I read that months ago and it doesn’t have this information. It may tell guys how to act, but not why they have to act that way. And it’s the why that stresses me out.

            If I can’t talk to my mate, I need someone in my life that has a clue, but I’m in NO position to “show them the truth” when I’m here freaking out about it myself. This is why I haven’t told a single guy I know about the ‘sphere at all. I don’t know how to explain it, and I don’t think any of them will want to face the cold hard truth so abruptly. Shit, they all say they are happy. Even if that’s true, taking the red pill will change it.

    2. Just in here checking in on Rollo’s patient, Ted D. How you doing?

      Too much support-circle vibe for Ted D. Changing your frame means stop looking back, stop lacerating yourself on memory, stop defeating yourself before you begin. This is a talking forum, but there is no talking cure. Women talk it out. Men pummel it out.

      There is no such thing as regret. Regret is living backward. Who cares about what happened before this moment? The only people who wistfully contemplate What Might Have Been are those who have decided their future will be defined by morose fatalism:

      There are people who possess so little of this [renewing flexibility] that they bleed to death incurably from a single experience, a single pain, often even from a single tender injustice, as from a really small bloody scratch. On the other hand, there are people whom the wildest and most horrific accidents in life and even actions of their own wickedness injure so little that right in the middle of these experiences or shortly after they bring the issue to a reasonable state of well being and a sort of quiet conscience.

      — Nietzsche, Use and Abuse of History for Life, Preface, I.

      You will not find deliverance by relitigating the past. You have been called, the truth is plain in front of your face. Your only choice is to drop your nets and pursue it, or collapse into self-pity.

      To another he said, “Follow me.” But he said, “Lord, let me first go and bury my father.”

      But he said to him, “Leave the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”

      Another said, “I will follow you, Lord; but let me first say farewell to those at my home.”

      Jesus said to him, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.”

      — Luke 9:59-62

      Hand to the plow, brother.

      Matt

  38. Ted, ON some level women experience you making (fairly good) decisions for her as love and as loving the true her because it shows that your attention is directed towards her to such and extent that you care to investigate what she really needs and by actually seeing something she really needs and deciding this for her you are showing that you know her and love her. Having to ask means you don`t pay enough attention and haven`t seen who she really is and so can not really love her because you don`t know her.

    1. OK, this actually makes some sense to me, but it TRULY goes against everything that indicates a woman expects to be treated as a fully functioning autonomous adult.

      So is it reasonable to assume that every women, despite being a ball busting bitch in the office or not, WANTS to be “taken care of” by their man? Is this the dirty little secret that women are keeping hidden away? Because although what you posted makes sense, it is TOTALLY putting the responsibility of caring for her on my shoulders. I’m not even against that, but if that is going to be how it goes, then I have no desire to pretend otherwise. And that is my issue. I’m willing to completely take care of her, but I have no desire to pretend we are “equal partners” then. Because, if I have to “investigate what she really needs” then I’m doing more work than she is in the relationship, because I simply TELL her what I need.

      And no, to me her washing the dishes more often doesn’t make it even…

      1. despite being a ball busting bitch

        The ball busting bitch most likely acts this way because there is no man in her life providing the strength and stability she needs.

      2. “So is it reasonable to assume that every women, despite being a ball busting bitch in the office or not, WANTS to be “taken care of” by their man?”

        Yes. In all things. She wants you to break the ties, make the decisions, and direct the course of your lives together. That is on your shoulders. And therefore, you and your SO are not “equal partners”. You are dominant, she is submissive. Thing is, she has to agree to be submissive.

        There are things you can do to gently mold and press her into submission and enforce it (a little dread, negs, preselection) but if she won’t agree, she won’t agree — and she’ll never be happy. That won’t, however, be your problem.

      3. So is it reasonable to assume that every women, despite being a ball busting bitch in the office or not, WANTS to be “taken care of” by their man? Is this the dirty little secret that women are keeping hidden away?

        Yes it is.

  39. Ted: “Am I really over thinking this?”

    I think so. You’re trying to reason out a bunch of stuff that doesn’t really need to be reasoned out, where you should be accepting and testing these principles, and then seeing where they lead in your own life. You have analysis paralysis.

    It’s good you’re over here asking these questions to other men, rather than HUS.

  40. “What do women want? Glamorous adventures without risk.”

    Margarethe von Trotta, discussing character motivation within her 1981 film “The German Sisters”.

    1. This is far more like work than a relationship to me… All my life I thought the “hard” work of a relationship was going to work, paying the bills, taking care of the yard and house, and “communicating” effectively. Compared to THIS, all that is a cakewalk.

      Well it’s painfully obvious why my marriage tanked. I don’t know that I want to jump through all these hoops simply to keep a woman in my life happy and content. It is asking me to take on a whole new level of responsibility for another person, yet no one ever ONCE clearly spelled that out for me. It’s no wonder my ex was unhappy, I did everything I could to LET HER decide things. Even when I thought she was full of shit…

      1. It’s not the relationship you’re working on, it’s yourself that you’re working on. You seem to have this idealized goal state in mind, to perfect the relationship.

        This is how betas think – “what do I have to do to make the relationship great?”

        For the Beta mindset the relationship is the focus, not themselves. A good relationship is just an incidental byproduct of an Alpha mindset. For almost 16 years I’ve been married, and in that time I have NEVER worked on my relationship. It’s good because it’s the result of my creating a better me.

        https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/rewriting-the-rules/

        1. Ted,

          By God, this.

          Read it and read it again. Women want to be allowed to go along for the ride. Your ride. Your life. If you try to make us your life, then you’ve lost.

          1. Well shit.

            I’m no longer a push over at home. I have taken control of my finances, am getting back into better shape (have a long way to go, but I’m at least half way there), I’m getting back into writing music and collaborating with old friends, and despite being set back with a divorce am managing to move on without much drama. I’ve been successfully running a MAP for months, and I’m feeling pretty good about the progress. And that is why things are going well in my relationship up to now?

            So “the relationship” doesn’t actually need much focus, and instead that effort should be put into doing what’s best for me. If I do that, 75% of the hard relationship work is done, and the rest is a little bit of “game” and “communication”?

            All the talk about “how hard relationships are” is utter bullshit? The key to all of this actually is to just be happy with yourself, and not give a shit otherwise? And she will be happy doing whatever it is *I* want regardless of her desires?
            I will never be able to “control” my relationship, and all of my trying will simply result in more of this frustration?

          2. Ted, I just have to say it’s gratifying and educational watching you wash down the last of the honkin’ red pill you’ve been nursing for the past few months or so.

          3. And she will be happy doing whatever it is *I* want regardless of her desires?

            I think you will find that your desires become her desires, Ted.

            Also, the only thing you can control is yourself. When you can do that, she will follow along as *you* are the only place she will want to be.

  41. Ted,

    It feels tiresome now and it will feel tiresome for quite some time but that will/should eventually change. I had similar thoughts about this and when I asked the guy I see as my mentor in this, who has himself undergone a similar change, he said that it won`t be tiresome anymore once you have really changed and truly become that different man because it is not tiresome to be who you really are. And even though you are not that person today there is in your subconcious, in your nercous system in your hormonal makeup, a potential for being the type of man who can lead in a relationship, who passes shit tests because he is secure in his frame and boundaries and knows what he wants etc. And the thing is, even though you don`t understand this now, and it is probably impossible to feel this now, unlocking that potential is going to feel very, very , very good for you and is going to feel som much more natural for you once you are there than where you are now. It is kind of like being dominant in bed. It can feel strange at first, unwanted maybe, but once you feel it is ok to be and you are with someone who really enjoys it it will often start to feel great and eventually as natural and as part of your real nature.

    Thing is, the nice beta parts of you can still remain in many ways but just reorganized. From a more “alpha” position you can be very nice and loving and you will also discover how being that secure calm stability for her feels good also because of what you can see it gives her in the moment and it will also start to feel good because of the rewards she gives you because of it. She will sort of open up in her femininity more and become more loving and doting and nurturing etc. and that will feel great.

  42. I’m amd listening and reading this site with more and more understanding. I am kinda like Ted, slowly swallowing the RED pill, digesting and trying to make sense of it all.
    I am learning new things everyday, but sometimes I have to unplug to take it all in, otherwise it gets overwhealming. Anyway I enjoyed reading the post it has def been aN eye opening last 6 months since I started reading this awesome blog and just wanted to say thanks everyone for your excellent and well thought out posts.
    Now go grab your SO’s ass and give her a hard one from me!
    I love you all. That is all.

  43. Where do I start? Where do I start? I’m just gonna come out and say it here…I stumbled across this place…what’s it called manosphere? Yeah I’m gonna sound pathetic. Heck you’re all probably gonna think I’m too stupid to live. If this was Neanderthal age, i’d be the first to be crushed by a bloody massive mammoth. Why? Because I’ve come to a effing conclusion…Throughout school, I always wondered, why oh why were a certain select few reaping the benefits of mankind…going on dates, partying, drinking, going on dates, getting the chicks…conclusion most were alphas, jocks and modelly looking types, the ones that weren’t jocks were from wealthy families with abs and guns like steel(And I aint exaggerating..). And I was weird skinny kid with zits that made a raspberry look like succulent pear fruit. I was nothing. I still I’m. I had only one friend. He was whizz at maths and the girls…these girls only wanted him for one thing…to be their lapdog when it came to doing their math homework. The only girl to give me the time of the day was Curly Sally, she was zany, fat and wanted to become a lesbian (don’t ask me how one becomes a lesbian) but she liked me. We kinda dated. I decided maybe i should focus on girls closer to me in looks…then it happened. The harsh reality that Curly Sally was only dating me because and I quote ‘I’m only with him for practice…I want to be able to please [insert Mr. Alpha here] when i meet him. I mean did you read 50 shades? Ana wasn’t exactly gorgeous when she met 50…jeez sometimes i wonder why we can’t find a guy like 50. No man is ever gonna measure up.’ and the worse bit ‘He = (me) can bulk up but his face isn’t going to change. He hasn’t got that jawline, maybe that’s why i get the headaches when he wants to kiss me. And i don’t even want him to cuddle me anymore. I need a 50 in my life.’ This is a phone call transcription to her friend and i wish i never overheard. She was with me to please…when i was trying to give her the time of the day? Did I love her? Yeah. I guess. I thought we were on the same page but i was wrong…the next thing i knew she was arguing with me over too much salt in the scrambled eggs THAT I VOLUNTEERED to fry for her because I HAD ADDED TO MUCH SALT AND BAM BREAK UP! WHY! Ok i’ll stop yelling…i warned you this was gonna get pathetic.

    But then i met the coolest man ever…45 sadly divorced twice, says women have gotten worse over the decade, showed me the gym and all to get in shape. He wanted to help me. Sadly i couldn’t gain any muscle to save my life. I’m podgy like hell. So I gave up; got this bad bowl cut and decided to give up on girls. Yeah Mr. 45 started banging this girl only for him to get duped because she was also banging some other guy. So why give up on love altogether? Isn’t that dumb?

    Yeah it’s fucked cos it’s not getting any better for me. I approach a girl and the next thing I hear is scraping of chairs and bags shuffling. Yep. Then I see Mr. Alpha whose face is soo boring he could be wallpaper, pretty wallpaper flash his pale white smile and bam, the girls flock to him! But my bestfriend in the world, maths whizz has told me something…eureka moment. Forget about love, forget about girls. He’s gonna try and know as much maths as one human being can know and I’m gonna join cos one can’t know that much math.

    For now I’m out of the race.

  44. Regarding this book “50 shades of grey” The women definitely want this kind of sex but just not with their mediocre husbands and boyfriends.

    Women dont want these kind of sexual dynamics with a regular guy. There is nothing most men can do. Men are already uninhibited about sex. They are already willing to have more sex, with more partners in more ways. There is nothing men can do because women set different limits, terms and boundaries with different men. Women will never *let* most men go there. Women will never submit themselves to most men. Most men are simply not good enough for this. The so called Alpha male doesnt pull out confidence out of his ass. He gets confidence from the way women engage with him. Women naturally bring out their feminine and vulnerable side in the presence of desirable, dominant alpha men.

    Women have relationships for various reasons. Sexual fulfillment is just very low on the priority lists. Women know this but only subconsciously. The kind of men they really desire sexually, they really want to submit to sexually are very few and not available for commitment to the vast majority of them. However, most women can have flings with such men, regardless of how mediocre they themselves are. As you know women can get sex with high quality men quite easily.

    What I want is for *men* to open their eyes and swallow the bitter pill…come to terms with the uncomfortable truth about female sexuality. This, I believe its very important. This I beleive will make them more equipped to deal with women. It will make them more tough and most importantly they will learn to never invest too much in any woman because they are incapable of desiring you as much as you desire them. I feel really sad that my gender is so naive and delusional.

  45. Ted —— As an adult, my SO gets to decide if she wants my leadership or not. How can anyone with any bit of morality or even conscious simply decide for another adult what is best for them? ——

    An effective leader is one whom people DESIRE to follow. If people follow because they feel obligated, guilty or coereced, things won’t go well. It’s like the difference between busting ass for your boss at work because you like him and want him to look good for his boss…. or doing it because you hate the guy, but need a paycheck.

    By definition, if you are an effective leader of your relationship, the other person won’t object. It’s a lack of leadership skills that cause problems.

    As for your partner not having a choice…. of course she has one. She can accept your leadership, or she can NEXT you and find some other guy. And no, I’ve never sat down and explicitly had this conversation with a girl I was dating. But it’s something I’ve effectively sub-communicated through my actions.

    ——- Do you honestly not see that as arrogant? I’m not saying I’m incapable of doing it, and in fact I believe that having the “reins” in the relationship would allow me to improve things easier and with less drama. However, if it goes against her will, then I have no claim to that role. ——-

    Why is her will more important than yours? You said you want the reins. More precisely that you believe having them would lead to an improved relationship with less drama. And yet you won’t claim them because it goes against her will.

    Take charge. One of two things will happen. 1: She’ll give you her implicit approval by staying with you. Judge what she wants by her actions not her words. It’s entirely possible she says she hates it, but stays anayways. 2: She’ll let you know she hates it by leaving. You’ll be free to pursue a relationship where you can hold the reins and be happy. And she’ll be free to find some other guy that’s willing to let her be in charge. In either scenario, you both win.

    As for the arrogance thing.

    Arrogance. Adj. having or showing an EXAGGERATED opinion of one’s own importance, merit, ability, etc. (emphasis mine).

    Calling yourself the leader of your household and your relationship is only arrogant if you aren’t the actual leader. Sure, a number of pissed off women are going to shame you by calling you arrogant. Who cares?

    ——- Unless of course you are implying that it is my role by default since she agreed to be in a relationship with me. ——-

    BINGO!

    ——That would be fine provided it was laid out in the beginning and clearly stated. However I don’t think there are many if any modern American women that in any way believe it. In fact, I would wager that most are completely against the concept. —–

    NO! NEVER clearly state it. Like I said above, subcommunicate.

    As for most women being against the concept, again, judge her actions not her words. A woman may happily tell all her friends how she doesn’t like dominant males, how she has her man wrapped around her finger because he’s so pathetically in love, etc. Yet when he makes a decision, it’s final and she submits to it.

    That’s part of why subcommunication is key. It allows her to maintain this level of deniability between her actions and her words. So you’re partially correct. Almost all women will CLAIM they are completely against the concept. But in practice, very few women will ever leave a man because he’s strong and authoritative.

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  48. Males understand reality. Women can never accept the premise of 50 Shades of Twilight, eternally growing into adulthood from a child.

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