There’s a lot being made of sluts recently. Vox, whom I’ve got a great respect for, just made an (admittedly unscientific) poll attempting to estimate mate worthiness and establish some hard data amongst those aware of it, on rates of fidelity by asking the right questions. I took part in it, but to my disappointment my particular input was useless because I’m a ‘snowflake’ – I’ve been with 40+ women, had 4 significant LTRs, cheated on 2 (was also cheated on by the same 2, but that wasn’t on the questionare), been married almost 16 years, never cheated on my wife, nor have ever been cheated on by my wife (who’s had at least 6 prior BFs I’m aware of) – yep, I guess I’m an outlier. Or at least an outlier in respect to the correlations that other’s wanted to find evidence of.
As expected, Aunt Giggles was eager to gobble up the ‘hard data’ to make her case for fem-centric feminine framed monogamy (despite very loose parameters), but it struck me that, within both the manosphere and team woman, there is indeed an emphasis on the virtues of a woman being as close to pseudo-virginity as is socially manageable. I touched on this briefly in The Slut Paradox, and I do understand the evolved psychology behind it.
If Men are willingly or forcibly going to sacrifice their polygynous sexual strategy in favor of a female specific long-term strategy of parental investment, they innately want reassurances of a woman’s fidelity and that his biological investment is in fact his own. There have been some entertaining experimental studies on men’s innate ability of recognizing their own children’s faces amongst a crowd of uniformly dressed kids; Men are more accurate and faster to identify their kids in a crowd than women. So, for men it’s not a stretch to assume there’s an evolved aspect to confirming paternity if not actual fidelity.
On the feminine side, the psychological fallout ranges from a need for absolution of their sexual pasts (revirginization, spiritual and physical), to notch count revisionism, ASD, and simple cognitive dissonance. With so many coping mechanisms, it would appear that secreting our sexual histories is of paramount importance to ensuring our genetic legacies.
Virgin Pluralism
The problem is that feminine Hypergamy and women’s pluralistic sexual strategies conspire against each other. It is in a woman’s genetic best interests to breed with Men of superior stock (or at least perceptually so) whilst in her prime fertility years. Rationalizations and conscious efforts aside, a woman’s hindbrain subroutine compels her toward striking while the biological iron’s hot. This characterizes Hypergamy in her prime fertility window, but later when long-term security becomes the imperative this Hypergamy fluidly changes toward the best provider of security. It’s at this time that there is a psychological schism for women; as the wall approaches, a need for cognitive dissonance splits between her former sexual strategy and is replaced by a long-term security strategy. This necessitates forming new mental schema to replace the soon-to-be obsolete schemas that allowed her to pursue her sexual imperative when younger. Suddenly she’s concerned not only for her own long-term security, but the sisterhood’s as well. Ask her to tell you the best way to live and it’s always been about monogamy, security, fidelity, relationship,..etc.
All of that doesn’t sit well with a Man’s conflicting sexual strategy. In a woman’s sexual prime, his scattershot sexual strategy makes for a complementary tactic (as far as evolution’s breeding the next crop of humanity is concerned), but when it comes to a strategy of parental investment, psychological contingencies and countermeasures had to evolve to lessen the risk to his genetic legacy. Enter the importance of pseudo-virginity.
The New Virgins
I don’t think I need to reiterate the importance a purported low sexual partner count on the part of women seems to be for men. No wants a slut right? Why?
Vox’s study and the resulting speculations on its indications is evidence enough of this desire, but there is a concerted effort for both parties interested to maintain at least the presumption of a low N-count. The conflict arises in conflating a high partner count as the causation for infidelity.
Is past sexual selectivity / promiscuity an indicator for low / high pair bonding instances, or is it the conditions that prompted those behaviors the cause of infidelity? We definitely would like reliable predictors of infidelity, but I think what we fail to see is the causality of what contributes to the predictability. While infidelity may be morally reprehensible, from an evolutionary standpoint it may actually be the most beneficial recourse depending on circumstance.
Hypergamy doesn’t care if you’ve only ever fucked your wife. For every rare snowflake who moves from a high N-count to life-long marital fidelity, there’s a rare couple of high school sweethearts divorcing who’ve never fucked anyone but each other. We want the True Love couple to live happily ever after because it appeases our emotions and sense of fantasy, while we also expect the slut or the incorrigible cad get their just rewards of a life of self-loathing resentment. Reality doesn’t always cooperate with our idealizations, but the more important question to ask is why we think one couple is deserving of happiness while the other merits scorn?
Notch Count
Women don’t pine away for past beta lovers. All of this handwringing about a woman’s notch count and how numerically close she is to virginity is only so much semantics if you don’t factor in the psychological impact a single Alpha lover has on a woman. Ever wonder why the guy a girl shares/loses her virginity with is so memorable for her? Barring instances of rape, he’s a default Alpha just for having been her first. This is the primary reason I advise Men against deflowering virgin women; the sex is often negligible, but the impact is so significant that it forms an emotional attachement in a girl that most guys are unprepared for.
Once a woman has experienced that Alpha dominance, only another Alpha experience can delimit the previous experience. This is an example of the role conditionality plays in pair bonding. If a woman has had 10 prior lovers who’ve all amounted to beta experiences, an Alpha experience may be all it takes to make her loyal. On the other hand a woman with only one prior Alpha lover may be impossible to convince to be loyal to anyone she sees as a lesser experience.
These are the Alpha Widows. In fact, I’d argue that most female initiated infidelity is a result of hypergamous impulse seeking to find its previous level. Women don’t trade down in experience, they are always perceptually trading up. One of the liabilities of hypergamy is that there is a risk to benefits equation playing in women’s hindbrains that assesses what she can potentially lose. This is a pre-established dread that has to be repressed or ignored in order to for a woman to cheat. Women are prone to infidelity with better options, not worse ones. It’s a mistake to assume that only notch count is the precursor for infidelity.
“Women are prone to infidelity with better options, not worse ones. It’s a mistake to assume that only notch count is the precursor for infidelity.”
+1
In other words, the poll finds correlation between notch count and infidelity because these are the input parameters. There IS correlation, but it doesnt prove causability. A poll looking up for causes of infidelity would include the trade up / down “did you cheat because…” options. And track if the infidelities became relationships or remained casual.
*causality.
Lol what? So if your wife has had 40 dicks you’re safe because you’re the best one? By that logic marrying a prostitute would be the best strategy because most johns are losers. What an alpha dog you would be with a whore for a wife. And the reason most people would want promiscuous people to fail at love in the long term is because we all want immorality to be punished. At least the people playing by the rules do. Its characteristic and a barometer of this backwards culture that it celebrates criminals and criminality. The descent of western… Read more »
If she had 40 dicks chances are she likes dick variety too much to remain loyal.
But it doesnt mean a virgin wont cheat, since dick variety is not the primary reason for infidelity in women.
No it’s not a guarantee, but were not looking for absolute values because for the most part they don’t exist. All else being equal, a virgin is a better catch, maybe the only real “catch” in the sense of only ever having been yours. Most guys arguing for a de-weighting of the importance of a woman’s number are guys looking to raise the value placed on her sexual performance, which usually means the level of degeneracy she will sink to in sex and the deviancy of the sex acts she’s comfortable performing. That’s why players don’t mind a well worn… Read more »
“All else being equal, a virgin is a better catch”
Yes.
You’re dealing with two extremes – a porn star on one side and a virgin saving herself for marriage on the other. As I stated on Friday, It is as equally unhealthy to convince oneself that self-repressions are virtues as it is to think that unfettered indulgences are freedoms. There is a balance.
Most women you encounter are going to be in the center of that spectrum, but they’ll still be subject to the rules of the whole.
“That’s why players don’t mind a well worn woman, in fact they prefer them.” And Vox was surprised in his study that “I was also surprised to see that the more sexually alpha a man is, the more likely it is that he will be betrayed by his wife. This is directly contra conventional Game theory…” Doesn’t surprise me at all. The Alpha has likely spent much of his life seducing women with no intention whatsoever of committing to them. When Alpha finally gets around to thinking that he might want a committed relationship, the woman is almost certainly picking… Read more »
Yet statistically, the younger a couple marries the more increased likelihood their marriage will end in divorce:
http://www.divorcerate.org/
If virginity (or low N-count) were a precursor for a successful marriage (as defined by the longevity of marriage) one would think that the opposite would be true, since early marriage would imply less opportunity for sexual experiences.
Why would this be? Statistically, people who marry after the age of 30 – and presumedly have a higher N-count on average than a 20 y.o – are more likely to maintain a successful marriage.
Rollo, you cannot compare younger married couples today with those of youre, simply because a myriad of factors, since most young married couples (in their 20s are not virgins nor religious or abide to any principle whatsoever and if the marriages of yore frequently (30%) resulted in less than ideal (read shitty as fuck), you cannot expect miracles from our generation). Virginity is not a guarantee of fidelity and marital success but in this topic I ‘d side with my ancestors (Western Europeans), virginity ideal if for marriage, loose women for fun. By the way modernguy was not dealing with… Read more »
Virginity is not a guarantee of fidelity
But it is very highly correlated.
“but it is very highly correlated” It’s also quite rare to marry as a virgin, isn’t it? Those women who wait are a self selected group who already have innate predispositions. If you just take any random virgin, there is no correlation between starting an ltr with her and her propensity to go on and fuck a small village of other boys. We’re talking about marrying when you are a virgin. Or marrying at a very low partner count. Who does that? Virgins are scarce by the time they are marrying age, and of those, few wait for marriage. It’s… Read more »
Likewise, Rollo. And while you are a statistical outlier, that doesn’t mean your input was simply thrown out. Now, I don’t doubt for a moment that high-N men are perfectly capable of fidelity, it’s only that the probabilities indicate that they are less likely to actually be faithful. 43% is far from a certainty, after all. I should note that you’re correct to point out that the causal factor is not necessarily the high N. But the correlation is a strong one and is therefore potentially useful in a predictive sense, for both men and women, as a proxy for… Read more »
My suspicion is that most female unfaithfulness to alphas is reactive rather than beta-seeking. But I can’t possibly prove it at this point.
I’m not 100% sure what you mean by reactive in this context. Could you elaborate?
BTW, I enjoyed the lesson on the Catholic-Eastern Orthodox split. Always good to learn something new. Perhaps sometimes there is some overlap between personal feelings and philosophical differences. My sense is men are much better than women at keeping the two separate. I find communism an abhorrent philosophy but I could be friends with a communist.
Reactive means it’s a revenge for the Alpha’s previous affairs.
“the impact is so significant that it forms an emotional attachement in a girl that most guys are unprepared for.” The Bible refers to that as becoming “one flesh”. The attachment to the first guy is the primary reason why the woman then tends to be dis-satisifed with future lovers. It’s not that the first one was that good in bed, it’s that he was the first. That is why virgins are preferable for marriage. Vox previously cited a scientific study which found a VERY significant increase in divorce when the study compared women who had a single sexual partner… Read more »
If you are in the market for an LTR, numbers matter, and previous alpha c0ck matters as well.
A high number count is indicative of the following…
She encountered a series of alpha males (there’s your alpha problem).
She mates spontaneously,
Is unable to pair-bond effectively.
Any of the above are HUGE red flags for the LTR seeker. It is a mistake to focus on previous alpha experience at the expense of notch count.
Both matter.
Every blog in the Manoshpere “confirms” the choices of it’s author. The author writes to confirm the truth of his or her wise choices. Roissy confirms that old guys can stay desirable and projects his self-hatred of age onto women. Susan Walsh was a boomer slut , who is lothe to state that virginity is preferred mode for women. She also indulges in “was I hot” affirmation and supplicates to her half-celebrities. Rollo confirms that a slut-wife and manwhore-husband can sustain an LTR. He adds confirmation that old guys are the preferred brand of sexy. Dalrock confirms that only humorless… Read more »
Oh I dunno, I think Roissy confirms that Chicks dig Jerks pretty well too.
Perhaps, but you could say the same thing about feminist blogs, religious blogs… hell, pretty much any blog really.
Anonymous confirms that he (mind you the only time I hear the word project, it usually comes from a woman) is a cynical prat.
Roissy and Rollo have literally written several books in their blogs and if thats the only thing you have gleaned then your ‘projection’ is evident.
“This is the primary reason I advise Men against deflowering virgin women; the sex is often negligible, but the impact is so significant that it forms an emotional attachement in a girl that most guys are unprepared for.” Eh, call me old fashioned, but I stay away from virgins. I rather deal with the corrupted in my LTR hopping. As you said, the sex is better and the emotions are more controlled(still erratic, though). Yet, do you think that IF a man should marry, should it be with a virgin woman he has ‘conquered’? Do you think she’d be more… Read more »
The thing that men who value lifetime commitment and purity will never be able to empathize with, is that some men don’t hold lifetime monogamy in as much esteem, and do hold sexual heat in a relationship in relatively higher esteem. The trade-off is worth it to them. Those who value lifetime bonds also have a very difficult time with the fact that people have innate predispositions. Girls with lower libido are less likely to have many partners. Girls born and built with higher libido are more likely to have more partners. I personally would every time choose a high… Read more »
And I have to agree with the main point of the article. It does happen that a girl can have fucked hundreds of guys and never even had an orgasm. Then she’ll meet some guy who she has incredible chemistry with, and becomes a never ending Niagra Falls of cum. To her that will be the first lover she ever had. She’ll say I love you 50 times a day and talk of how if you die she’ll never fuck another person. That happened to me a few years ago, but the girl died on me. But I’ve had other… Read more »
And here is what I believe is natures evil little twist.
The men who are most likely to want secure lifetime commitment are the same men least likely to be that guy who eclipses all other experiences before or after.
This is why the security men place such a high value on fidelity. Because they do not want to compete in the sexual marketplace.
They want to compete in a marketplace of fidelity.
yes yes and yes. All three comments are on the mark.
[…] wrote an article about such statistics and I have to agree with his main point; how strongly a man registers to a woman changes how much […]
For men who want to live with their children until maturity, being with a woman holds an entirely different dimension of purpose. However I argue that these men often conflate relationship with parenting, and will even compete against the bad boys for girlfriends on the basis of their fidelity. Women vote with their feet, and even though their mouths complain, in their prime they are not valuing fidelity over edge. They prefer to cry for that bad boy than settle with the good boy. The way of the walrus is more attractive than the way of the penguin. Penguins confuse… Read more »
Notch counts, alpha notch counts, alphaness of previous notch count etc. is too difficult for a man to estimate. The best method to secure fidelity is simply to look at the mother.
While I can’t prove it, my suspicion is that the concentration of alpha cock increases with increasing notch count (but only to a point). My reasoning is entirely speculative, but here goes: 1. Women subconsciously acknowledge loss of mating value with increased notch count, so they require more incentive to increase that count unless the guy is at least as alpha as the previous dick. 2. High notch girl = high libido girl, therefore alphaness is required to scratch the itch. 3. High notch counts required shorter-term relationships. Women do not hop from beta to beta, since to date a… Read more »
Xsplat your comments are true, but you often miss the mark, all depends on the purpose and the goal of your relationship, women I have bedded but almost no one taken seriously after learning their ways and still young, however I know that for the mother of my future children almost none of my choices so far I would take. In the same way you wouldn´t try to fix your pc components with a wrench, you wouldn´t want a self-confessed whore to birth your children, just a thought. I always try to think in the end when I start something,… Read more »
Yes, there was a time when children were a prime consideration in marriage for women in their prime. Women in their prime also married for financial or political reasons. Nowadays it is men in their prime who would like to trade their fidelity for sex and commitment, but not women. Betas often conflate the purpose of children with the reason for relationship. Women in their prime do that less. But I hear you that for marriage purposes, there are many advantages to choosing a risk averse, non-novelty seeking, low libido woman, because if you don’t, you will be getting involved… Read more »
Another way to say what I’m saying is that some men have a much lower socio-sexual score than does the average woman. He wants to fuck around less than she does. Men who approach marriage thinking that his young bride automatically shares his lifetime monogamy goals (just because she says she does), regardless of her previous number count, can be in for a surprise. Every woman was a virgin once – even the ones who went on to inhale 100 dicks. A better tell might be how adventurous and how libidinous she is. A low socio-sexual score man would be… Read more »
By far the best women for relationships are early 20’s girls who have only had 1-3 partners. I might even argue that these are the ONLY women who are suitable for a LTR in 2012 america.
How do you reconcile giving out this information with “Iron Rule of Tomassi” about never disclosing number of sexual partners?
Not sure I see the connection. How do you mean?
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/11/22/youve-been-with-how-many-girls/
And contrary from what you’d expect from the low partner count stats, young newlyweds divorce at a higher rate than those who marry when older. This is because low partner count women of marrying age are a minority of women who are either ugly with few options or timid hyposexual freaks.
Their numbers are too small to even balance out the stability of marriage that comes with age.
You would like to see my post up there, but basically a young person doesn´t equal low experience of naïvete in sexual matters. Especially for women.
You mean that the girls who are marrying as virgins are just as likely to be 30 years old as 19?
I’m not saying young equals virgin. I agree that it is common and normal to begin sex as a teenager. I’m saying that most virgin marriages must surely be to very young brides. No?
If not, then that further solidifies my point. A thirty year old female virgin truly is a repressed and anhedonic hypolibidinous freak.
I have left a few alpha widows in my wake.
I wonder… how do you think a guy could tell if his prospective mate is an alpha widow?
Usually she will bring it up.
So, low notch count = highest concentration of beta dick = least likely to have alpha widow thoughts and impulses.
I’ll put voice to another option here…and really it has been a popular choice in my generation (Gen X). I participated in Vox’s poll, and by all rights I would sound a little repressed based on my poll answers…one man, married him, never cheated, I was his first as well. What this doesn’t take into account though is the 11 years that we spent in an LTR, from the age of 18 on, before we got married. For me, and many members of my generation, sexual freedom meant not being “forced” into marriage early by society (not that my parents… Read more »
I think virgin and marriage material= young girl. If I met a 30 yr old girl who was not fat or ugly and was a virgin I would think two things. 1. What is wrong with her? Does she not desire sex? Is she a lesbian? 2. Is she some Barlowgirl nut job, who thinks God is going to hand her-her dreams on a silver platter? You know with modernism we have cheated ourselves out of a lot of the great things that were accessible to Alpha Males. The love of a young woman, if you are over a certain… Read more »
[…] More“, “Thermonuclear Anger Game: Tactical Rage”Rollo Tomassi – “Pseudo-Virginity“, “Dread Games“, “HB10”Samplexus – “The Workplace […]
[…] Tomassi: Pseudo-Virginity (HT: […]
Not to totally bash marriage (as it’s fine if people want to), but I am floored by the number of men (especially those who comprehend the issue of divorce, and even more so those who know some game) who still WANT to get married, and saying I’m floored is outstanding because I am now on a Stand-Up Desk (better for the back, but usually more typos). Not to start an argument (I’m not a feminist nor a whiny white-knight), but my OPINION according to my Alpha-Logic about the many guys who say (in an Open society in 2012) “women (of… Read more »
“There have been some entertaining experimental studies on men’s innate ability of recognizing their own children’s faces amongst a crowd of uniformly dressed kids; Men are more accurate and faster to identify their kids in a crowd than women.”
I’ve noticed that, but concluded that many of the mommies at the gate had piss-poor eyesight (a suspicion backed up by they way they drove to and from), and appeared to become confused and disoriented by any number larger than pie. Or profiteroles.
“I’d argue that most female initiated infidelity is a result of hypergamous impulse seeking to find its previous level.” I wholeheartedly agree with your statement, “most” being the key operative in the context of my comment. Having experienced a post-LTR shitstorm that forced the red pill upon me, I hope for the sake of my ex – and especially for that of the child we had together – that she’s an exception to the rule. I fear however that she’s not. Having a spotted history of alpha and high-beta relationships – I was a high beta with zero conscious game… Read more »
[…] Notch count – http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/pseudo-virginity/ […]
“On the other hand a woman with only one prior Alpha lover may be impossible to convince to be loyal to anyone she sees as a lesser experience.”
So how would you know whether she’s an alpha widow or an unfortunate beta collector?
[…] I noticed about the reddit post is that the sentiment is suspiciously similar to the whole “born-again virgin” nonsense that has become popular in some Christian communities. The idea being that if a […]
Sooo, like, the reason you’re a gamma is because your wife was a huge slut and you have to keep overcompensating or your shit will all fall apart.
At least if your kids are half black it will be kinda hard to tell. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[…] Rational Male: Pseudo-Virginity […]