Rollo Tomassi:
“Hypergamy is a selected-for survival mechanism.”
Aunt Sue:
“Hypergamy states that a woman seeks a man of higher status than herself for marriage. Nothing less, nothing more.”
Escoffier:
“I don’t think that’s right.
The theory is more like this, from what I have read. Hypergamy is a woman’s natural (which is to say, genetically wired) preference for a higher status male–that is, higher status than herself and also higher status than the other men in her field of vision and also perhaps higher status than men she has known in the past and even (at the extremes) higher status than most men she can personally imagine meeting. That cuts across a range of possible relationships, all the way from a ONS to marriage. In all cases, women naturally prefer the highest status man they can get. And sometimes they want so much status that they won’t settle on ANY man they could actually get.
“Status” has a varied meaning in this definition. Certain things correllate with high status, for intance money, prestige, social standing, etc. However a man can have all of that and still be low status because of low status intrapersonal behavior (i.e., needy schlumpitude). The highest possible status male would be rich, good looking, fit, well dressed, high social cache, high prestige job (preferably one which involves risk, physical risk being better than mere monetary risk), and also extroverted, dominant, the leader of his group of friends, able to command any social situation, and so on. However, women are wired to be turned on more by the latter BEHAVORIAL traits than by be the former SUBSTANTIVE traits. So, if you have have to choose one or the other, to get women, be socially dominant and a broke societal loser rather than socially awkward and a rich societal winner. But best to be both, if possible.
As to marriage, sure women want to marry up. But this does not exhaust the effects of hypergamy. Women can marry up–both intrinsically and in their own mind–and still ditch their catch because someone “better” comes along. That is hypergamy at work.
Also, when women are pursuing short and medium term mating, hypergamy has no less force. They always prefer the most socially dominant male they can get. This is often relative (A&B are both a little dweeby but A is more alpha than B and since I want someone NOW I choose A) but sometimes it is more intrinsic (A&B are both a little dweeby and even though A is a little more alpha, since I don’t have to have someone NOW, I am going to hold out for the Real Deal).
It’s not all about marriage. It’s about mate selection accross the range of circumstances.
That, at any rate, is how I believe the manosphere understands “hypergamy.”
Aunt Sue:
“Yes, because they made it up. Researchers do not recognize that definition. It’s pure Game.”
The main reason I only sporadically participate in the comment threads at Aunt Sue’s echo chamber Blog is because conversational gems like this have a marked tendency to get buried under, sometimes, thousands of other comments. I think it’s a shame really. I wanted to draw particular attention to the difference in interpretation of terms with regards to the dynamic of Hypergamy here.
Escoffier makes an astute analysis of Hypergamy in a much broader perspective than Susan’s definition-approved “researchers” are willing to recognize. On the fem-centric side we have Sue casually dismiss “Hypergamy” (twice) in this context as some fabrication of the Game-set and therefor not a legitimate analysis. A rose is a rose, and as I’ve stated in prior threads, Hypergamy is a term that should have a much broader definition when considered in context with the feminine imperative and the eminently observable feminine behaviors that manifest as a result of Hypergamy’s influence.
That the term Hypergamy should be so wantonly limited in its definition, and in such a way that it serves to deliberately confuse a better understanding of it as an evolutionary impulse on the feminine psyche, speaks volumes about the importance of maintaining its misunderstanding to the feminine imperative.
It’s almost ironic that the collective feminine ego should even need to deign to recognize Hypergamy in the terms that it is cast as in Susan’s default response. “Hypergamy states that a woman seeks a man of higher status than herself for marriage. Nothing less, nothing more.” forces the feminine to at least begrudgingly accept that women are in fact basing their long-term commitment prospects on status (as defined by researchers), and not some ephemeral soul-mate, emotional precept. God forbid men (PhDs or otherwise) should have the temerity to extrapolate any further social, psychological or evolutionary implications that could’ve influenced that Hypergamy dynamic into existence.
While I wont argue the credentials of the researchers Sue will undoubtedly quote – I often acknowledge all of the same in other posts and comments – I will however make the point that her interpretation (as is everyone’s) is subject to bias. And in this case, that bias serves the feminine imperative in keeping the definition of Hypergamy in as closed a way as possible to benefit the feminine. In the evolving understanding of the motivators that influence intergender relations there are going to be terms that describe concepts.
AFC’s, Alpha, Beta, Hypergamy, etc. are all defined by the concepts they represent.
‘Hypergamy’ serves well in a much broader capacity, but should the feminine imperative find that broader definition threatening to its purpose it will casually dismiss it as illegitimate. The real question then is, why would that concept be threatening to the feminine? You can delegitimize the term, but the concept is still the operative issue. Why is the concept of that larger scope of the term so offensive to a fem-centric society?
The Conspiracy that Wasn’t
One issue many of my critics have is that in exposing these inconsistencies, these operative social conventions and the latent purposes behind them, my writing (really most of the manosphere) seems to take on a conspiratorial tone. I can fully appreciate this, and it might shock a few readers to know that I reject much of the popularized MRA perspective in this respect. I agree with an MRA perspective in a rational analysis to a certain degree, but there is no grand conspiracy, no secret mysterious cabal pushing a negative perception of masculinity – and this is exactly why what I outline on this blog is so pervasive. There doesn’t need to be a unitary group of ‘anti-men’ bent on some melodramatic goal of world domination; because this feminized ideal is already embedded in our socialization. Fem-centrism IS our collective social consciousness.
It doesn’t need a centralized directorship because the mindset is already so installed and perpetuated by society at large it’s now normalized, taken for granted and self-perpetuating. AFCs raising AFCs leads to still more AFCs. This generation doesn’t realize their own bias because it’s been standardized, encouraged and reinforced in them, and society, over the course of several generations now.
What’s to question, especially when calling attention to the feminization dynamic leads to ridicule and ostricization?
So to answer the conspiracy question; no, there is no illuminati shadow conspiracy and that’s exactly what makes feminization the normalized and overlooked default.
Good article, but I’m waiting for someone to acknowledge that men also engage in a form of hypergamy in the sense that we’re looking for the younger/better looking woman. Granted it’s a bit different as men are willing to settle for sex now while looking for the better looking women and would add the new conquest to a harem if possible.
The real question then is, why would that concept be threatening to the feminine? In my view, you have to ask what is one of the primary, instinctual drives of most women? Marriage, children, and motherhood and the ASSOCIATED PROVISIONING OF A DEDICATED, COMMITTED MALE. The fact is motherhood with a committed male is a less problematic life than motherhood without a committed male. So, at least in part, a committed male is a tool to achieve that goal of motherhood. Of course, there is more to the relationship then just that dynamic, and many men desire children on some… Read more »
H Man,
In most cases though, the guy isn’t looking to dump/get rid of the existing woman. He is just looking to add to the total, and thus acting on his polygamous drive for variety.
This can be seen in marital infidelity where often the guy isn’t looking to divorce the wife, but the women is usually looking to switch guys. The woman wants the “better” man. The guy just wants sexually different.
Hypergamy is threatening because it says that all women crave alphas, but that they do it in an utilitarian way. Which contradicts the pure / empathetic / all kinds of goods / peaceful idealization of women. Hypergamy at its core is the red pill. That a woman cares more about your status and what she gets from you more than she cares about “you”. And that the minute that what she gets from you changes for the worse, she´ll leave for a better / higher status one who can give her better stuff. Hypergamy basically says that “love” is for… Read more »
“Hypergamy at its core is the red pill.” This statement pretty much explains why when PUAs started studying game and learning the concepts, a massive amount of now-well-known pickup technology was learned from observing and duplicating the behavior of women who have infinitely more socializing experience than men (especially an outgoing hot girl VS a socially akward computer nerd). Backturns, takeaways, making the person qualify themselves, frame control, kino, negging, social proof, jealousy plotlines, being the prize, assuming attraction, push/pull, abundance mentality, etc. etc. all that shit is Flirty Woman 101 and how girls act on their hypergamy to trade… Read more »
Sadly, this is the situation i’m currently in…..
Its like once you Realize everything you were taught was a lie, It gets to a point (I know some guys that done exactly this) where you feel like not even trying because of how screwed up it is now. I’m not going to just give up, but it really screws with you.
“I’m waiting for someone to acknowledge that men also engage in a form of hypergamy in the sense that we’re looking for the younger/better looking woman. ”
I don’t think anyone has claimed otherwise… it’s a widely accepted fact. As Yohami pointed out, female hypergamy contradicts the commonly held notion of feminine “goodness” – therefore it’s not heard about nearly as much.
The real question then is, why would that concept be threatening to the feminine? I think Mike C. nailed it. No one wants to admit they were second fiddle, but it has to be true on some level for all of us. We typically marry our SMV counter parts (the man usually being of higher status). The fact that women might be attracted to a man of higher status if he should come along is, of course, true. It’s shameful for a woman to feel this, at least on the level that she would entertain any type of infidelity, and… Read more »
“The fact that women might be attracted to a man of higher status if he should come along is, of course, true.” Being unable to accept this fact is what holds a lot of guys back from excelling at game. I never get jealous because I accept that if a better man came along, my girl will be attracted to him. That’s just the nature of women. All I can do is be the best man I can be. If she leaves me, she leaves me, that’s alright, I’ll find another one and I wish her the best. But she… Read more »
Exactly.
This is the reason I’ve always maintained that there is no such thing as the mythical ‘Quality Woman’. Every woman is innately hypergamous and they are only “quality” insofar as a Man can stay on top of the hypergamous food chain.
Ouch.
That’s true partially, however you have to admit that the current situation has been abetted by high-status males for their own convenience, it´s been documented elsewhere and more importantly the change in attitudes has been swift, without these high status males financing the women´s movement wouldn´t have achieved much.
By the way our ancestors (great great grandfathers and backwards) would have spit on us for been such a pussies (collectively) and knew instinctively all the things we are discussing. How could such knowledge become lost?
subverted not lost you can easily pick up many ancient texts today and read about these insights on the nature of women, in plain sight, unhidden the biblical allegory of paradise lost itself is a glaring example of one the modern day subversion of the ancient order of things was facilitated by intellectual arrogance. technology and progress afforded present day academics the deluded notion that they are smarter than those “barbarians” who built the pyramids with their hands. hence, with their noble hearts and their feeble brains, it became their mission to undermine the social rules put in place through… Read more »
Yohami,
“Hypergamy is threatening because it says that all women crave alphas, but that they do it in an utilitarian way. Which contradicts the pure / empathetic / all kinds of goods / peaceful idealization of women. ”
– I got the overall theme of your message but these sentences are a little unclear. What do you mean by utilitarian? They just want to use us? Please expand a bit on this.
Yep. Use. Milk. Extract. Possess. Own. Until something better pops up.
Given that for the greater part of history and up until very recently women had no choice in their mate selection, I’m surprised that hyperagamy is seen as a selection strategy rather than a coping mechanism.
It makes sense that evolutionary traits adapted to supplicate to mate dominance would prevail.
From this lens game makes more sense.
In most species the males compete and the winner breeds with the female. The female just waits on the side until they are done. I wouldnt call that “coping”… it’s more like the two sides of the same coin.
Men want power – women want the powerful man. Men want success – women want the successful man. Men want to dominate – women want the dominant man. Etc.
Which is why if you were the last guy on earth… she WOULD fall for you.
Actually she would test you. And wonder.
What can she test him for if there is no other man though? She already has the best. What if he was even better?!
She already has the best. What if he was even better?!
the testing isn’t necessarily conscious, and even if it were, women don’t behave rationally anyway.
her subconscious is thinking ‘perhaps a fish will sprout legs, walk out of the water and evolve into man better than what i’ve got’.
Men groking hypergamy is very threatening to women because it will make men stop sacrificing themselves like they do now for women’s benefits.
Yep. I believe it’s really that simple. It’s also threatening to the parents of daughters for the same reason.
“There doesn’t need to be a unitary group of ‘anti-men’ bent on some melodramatic goal of world domination; because this feminized ideal is already embedded in our socialization.” The ways and means of said socialization having been well-document by those in power who have worked for several generation to see it come to fruition. The men who move the world can be likened to a meticulous director, ala Stanley Kubrick; anything you see/feel is there because they *wanted* you to see/feel it. The tragedy comes from when you believe it to be anything more than fiction. “It doesn’t need a… Read more »
“Women are only the ‘gatekeepers’ of sex insofar as men permit them to be.”
Precisely.
My grandmother came from a culture where men kidnapped women from distant villages. These women didn’t wait on the sidelines for brutes to duke it out and often they hated the men they were paired with but eventually everyone had to get along (though it wasn’t like anyone was asking what their ‘feelings’ were).
Although there are genuine conspirators (what on earth are think tanks and black budgets) I think they are unwitting pawns in a cycle playing itself out.
Great post. I’m honestly kind of surprised more people don’t view feminism as simply the story of our current culture and that so many MRA’s think its a conspiracy. If it was, we’d see it more often because there would be something TO see. We’d see a curtain and wonder who was hiding behind it, spouting off inane requests to kill their foes. Maybe its just my theatre background, but I’ve always been aware of the societal story we’re raised on and that it is so powerful for never being seen or made aware of by most. That being said,… Read more »
“I’m honestly kind of surprised more people don’t view feminism as simply the story of our current culture and that so many MRA’s think its a conspiracy.” Many MRA’s sit inside and blog about the injustice of the world and conspiracies and take their ball and “go their own way” instead of going out and actually socializing with and learning what attracts women, which will teach you everything you need to know about female psychology and the effects of feminism and the general state of society. Everything from the White Knight defending a girl he’s just met who doesn’t give… Read more »
And thus why I read both MRA, non-MRA, and PUA sites. Gotta get a diverse and well rounded view of the situation.
I’ve actually never even heard of the MRA or the manosphere till a few months ago (though I did pop onto Roissy’s blog now and then, but had no idea it had an actual community around it). Most PUAs have never heard of the MRA because it’s silly to us since we’re finding ways to slip past all the obstacles MRAs bitch about. It’s an interesting perspective though. I think the MRA has a lot of good points that, as I get older, become more relevant (on marriage/divorce, child custody, etc.). But there’s just this massively bitter vibe that comes… Read more »
And most PUA’s have convinced themselves that they are ok with running through a revolving door of unfeminine, uninspiring women. Actually, a lot of them wouldn’t know a feminine woman if they saw one because they grew up around a women who think femininity is a quarter inch of makeup and a boob job.
What’s the difference between a PUA and an MRA? About 10 years.
When you get to a certain age and start thinking about having a family you will probably start to realize that the MRA crowd has some good points.
lol okay dude. You might as well just say “game only works on ditzy bar sluts!!!11111” like the feminists do. “That might work on those makeup-caked fake boob college girls but that would never work with a REAL quality woman like my co-worker Janice. She’s feminine, you wouldn’t even know what a feminine woman looks like, let alone be able to get one!!1111” Does it make you angry that PUAs can get feminine, high-quality women just as easily as we can get low quality bar sluts? Because you’ve put those women on such a high pedestal that it’s frustrating to… Read more »
Oh definitely.
The MRA stuff I read for my future. Getting a good grasp of the legal and social situations and challenges facing men. Then I do what I can to support and push those issues forward as a 26 year old man.
The PUA stuff I read for the now. For how to build myself up in a way that has inner game (being a person of worth) and outer game (displaying that worth).
Both are important.
The default response to anything that influences the mind (by the person who is being controlled, after they realize they are being controlled) is to think “There must be some kind of conspiracy” so it is no surprise that blue pill folks file the feminine imperative in the same category as “big business”. There’s no conspiracy….it is simply the market acting in its own self interest.
no conspiracy
its simple
the human species is evolving towards a special form of eusociality with distinct drone and worker castes being differentiated now as we discuss
how do you think the ants and the bees and the naked mole rats got there?
before evolution caught up on them, they also argued about the weird phenomenon they were observing and what it was all about (the impending demise of their individualities, really) in ant-barbershops and bee-coffeeshops and naked mole rat-online forums.
it will take a while for us. but who cares. plough on, proto-borgs
Ant Fred: Hey Bob, I don’t get it. No chicks will fuck me. They all want to fuck Bill and James.
Ant Bob: Yeah, that’s weird. They wont fuck me too. But you know what’s even weirder? Bill and James and Jason and Mark and all those other studs all seem to ignore the chicks and only want to fuck Joanna!
Ant Fred: Joanna? That huge, blubber of whale fat of a girl? That’s crazy. What has the world come to?
This post is quite timely. So I’m banging the married girl I’ve been banging off and on for 3 years. She claims hubby is chasing around other women—so that justifies her hanging with me… But after banging me…she always says “Do you think I could be your girlfriend?” Which is a shit-test….to which I respond with some re-frame….but on another level, it’s interesting that she’s quite ok still being married and shagging around and even angling to be someone’s gf. Another friend of mine recently met some hottie in a bar who came on strong but he was too afraid… Read more »
“It’s just that many guys have bought nto the feminine guit-trip that only guys screw around…” Too true, but the scales dropped from my eyes when I picked up a woman at a bar in DC in 2010. In her hotel bed she told me that she had to take an early flight out the next morning to meet her boyfriend before going home to her husband and family. So in essence, with me, she was cheating on her boyfriend with whom she was cheating on her husband… and rationalizing the whole thing by saying the boyfriend was being an… Read more »
Just read an article on Hypergamy in the East. Apparently, it’s hitting there too. Ouch
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304692804577281581288138216.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_MIDDLETopOpinion
[…] The Hypergamy Conspiracy […]
Although hypergamy and the feminine imperative is instinctive it has been used to great effect by the elite to destabilize society and destroy the family:
http://www.henrymakow.com/inside_the_cia_with_gloria_ste.html
http://www.savethemales.ca/180302.html
[…] been argued that women are much more “discerning” when it comes to attraction thanks to Hypergamy. Some manospherians like to bandy about 20% as the percentage of men that women can/do find […]
It doesn’t need a centralized directorship because the mindset is already so installed and perpetuated by society at large it’s now normalized, taken for granted and self-perpetuating. AFCs raising AFCs leads to still more AFCs. This generation doesn’t realize their own bias because it’s been standardized, encouraged and reinforced in them, and society, over the course of several generations now. C.S. Lewis had some pointed comments that relate. The blind spots each age has to its own assumptions … a sense of chronological snobbery where what is current is always better than that is past ages. It was why he… Read more »
Gents, I don’t think some of you are entirely swallowing the Red Pill. You can’t control your woman’s hypergamy. Sure you can try, you might be successful for a while in impacting it. However, there are too many variables outside of your control. Ultimately you can’t control how she views her situation and you. Any attempts to reason that you can is you being unable to accept the truth. Your attempts to better yourself so that you’re worthy is nauseating. You will only be loved based on what she feels/gets from you (regardless of reality). If you’re unable to do… Read more »
[…] […]
I would be absolutely fascinated to hear Rollo’s comments on Benjamin Franklin’s advice to a young man on choosing a mistress (I took this to simply mean lover, not an illicit affair partner) as it pertains to SMV, hypergamy, etc. Franklin, always astute, seemed to have insight rarely paralleled on many a topic: From Franklin’s letter to his young male confidant (on choosing a mistress): ” But if you will not take this Counsel, and persist in thinking a Commerce with the Sex inevitable, then I repeat my former Advice, that in all your Amours you should prefer old Women… Read more »
A menopausal woman is the perfect date!
[…] cheat on him. Well, that isn’t as hard a question to answer as you might think. I’ll just let Rollo Tomassi answer that question for […]
Hypergamous mating was the rational, predictable consequence of enforced female depency and pervasive discrimination against women operating ilthrough both the substance and processes of law. Until recently, most women were forced to secure their material needs through marriage, and thus marriage was an enourmously consequential institution, and one that was not predicated on something as fickle as love. As modern women continue to make economic advances, dominating university, assuming responsibility for their own success and privileging work over family, it has become evident that hypergamy is not an imperative but rather an artifact of patriarchal social relations. For all those… Read more »
Unfortunately you’re ignoring the role women’s natural biology plays in hypergamy.
http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/25/your-friend-menstruation/
http://therationalmale.com/2014/12/17/estrus/
Women’s neurological and hormonal makeup influences their sexual strategy. Hypergamy is the logical result of a predisposition for short term sexual selection based on physical prowess and social dominance during the ovulatory phase, and long term provisioning and security during the luteal phase.
Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks. Run that past your women’s studies class once spring break is over.
[…] assume hypergamy as our basis. We assume that a woman seeks to maximize and monopolize the best combination of Alpha […]
Why doesn’t everyone just have sex with each other. Find someone you feel comfortable around, date them and you both just go out and fuck everyone you want. Its always the same bullshit male vs. female both fighting for the same two things while not allowing the other person to have either, possession and self gratification. We are all nothing but selfish idiots. Get over it, then live it and die it. And I would like to add the best version of ourselves, male or female, come from seeing it how it is and being able to separate ourselves from… Read more »
Is that Angelina Jolie?
[…] cheat on him. Well, that isn’t as hard a question to answer as you might think. I’ll just let Rollo Tomassi answer that question for […]
Have only dated men with less social skills and less money then me! Discuss! Explain my lack of ‘Hypergamy’, which isn’t even a thing!
Have only dated men with less social skills and less money then me! Discuss! Explain my lack of ‘Hypergamy’, which isn’t even a thing!
You are fat and physically unattractive? Maybe you overestimate your social skills as well?
[…] Pill – are emplaced to control a narrative and a condition to suit its purposes. That may sound conspiratorial, but there is no need for a concerted effort when women’s natural, fluid interest in […]
[…] the Red Pill’s expanded definition of Hypergamy encompasses far more than just ‘marrying up‘, the 80/20 sexual selection process is simple enough that even Aunt Giggles in her heyday […]
The word hypergamy had a special meaning in the late 19th century when a British man who coined the term observed the caste system in India. There still exists the writings of a Mr. W. Coldstream. He observed that Hindu women were forced to marry a man of the same or higher caste. She was by law not allowed to marry lower than her caste, less she lose her life. Her parents had to put up a large dowry and pay for an expensive wedding befitting the caste of the man she married. Daughters were then considered a burden and… Read more »
…lol
“Pick a different word that includes both genders seeking a reproductive strategy that benefits them and their offspring.” In my opinion you are using a false premise. The premise of red pill awareness as we discuss here is that times have changed in “this free society” and in order for one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed today, the other gender’s by necessity is compromised. Try starting from that premise instead of the premise defined by “a reproductive strategy that benefits both of them and their offspring”. And it is better phrased as one genders sexual strategy because more often the… Read more »
“Why doesn’t everyone just have sex with each other. Find someone you feel comfortable around, date them and you both just go out and fuck everyone you want.” Because we are not Bonobos–pigmy, dwarf or gracile chimpanzees–(Pan paniscus). And we men don’t live in a world where we don’t have to strive and work for resources. Only matriarchal societies with not a care in the world act like that….. “Not from standing right there in the ring focusing on the fight. Go your own way.” Men are the do-ers. They have to be in the ring. Or else you would… Read more »
Oops, I got stuck in a thread from 2012 when I clicked on latest comments and thought it was the current thread. How did that happen? I guess I got distracted.
Cue Rod Serling:
http://media.aintitcool.com/coolproduction/ckeditor_assets/pictures/2345/original/RSerling.jpeg?1309521369
How did that happen?
It’s a conspiracy
Fun reading these old comments like:
over at HUS we had a very contentious debate
Ok, I’ll cue the man while I continue to ponder and be a red-pill-awareness enthusiast: According to his wife, Rod Serling often said that “the ultimate obscenity is not caring, not doing something about what you feel, not feeling! Just drawing back and drawing in, becoming narcissistic.” “There is nothing in the dark that isn’t there when the lights are on.” ― Rod Serling “Being like everybody is the same as being nobody.” ― Rod Serling “Any state, any entity, any ideology that fails to recognize the worth, the dignity, the rights of man, that state is obsolete” ― Rod… Read more »
[…] made an effort to address this in The Hypergamy Conspiracy, but this was some time ago. ‘Hypergamy’ serves well in a much broader capacity, but should […]
Kate Middleton Reportedly Felt Meghan Markle “Used Her to Climb the Royal Ladder” and Told Her So at Christmas:
https://www.cosmopolitan.com/entertainment/amp25744837/kate-middleton-felt-meghan-markle-used-her-climb-royal-ladder/
[…] made an effort to address this in The Hypergamy Conspiracy, but this was some time ago. ‘Hypergamy’ serves well in a much broader capacity, but should […]
[…] for what they really are, i.e. female hypergamy. If you haven’t heard that term before read Rollo Tommasi’s blog here orfollow this link to a female-slanted website that makes the point. You will take the lead in your […]