“Booty is so strong that there are dudes willing to blow themselves up for the highly unlikely possibility of booty in an other dimension. There are no chicks willing to blow themselves up for a penis.”
– Joe Rogan
One of the single most annoying tropes I read / hear from men (more so than women) is the “Women are just as / more sexual than men” canard. Nothing stops me in my tracks more abruptly than reading this line parroted back in some form by a self-effacing white knight trying to convince himself, hope against hope, that it could be true. This is a VERY effective feminine social convention, even internalized and spouted back by the likes of more than a few infamous PUAs. This fantasy belongs among the higher order social convention myths like the Myth of Sexual Peak. Just a rudimentary knowledge of female biology is all that’s needed to deconstruct the myth.
Women are more sexual than men, but they are repressed due to a lack of “trust”.
Patently false. A healthy male produces between 12 to 17 times the amount of testosterone a woman does. It is a biological impossibility for a woman to want sex as much as, or as often as men. Trust me, when a woman says, “I don’t understand why sex is so important to guys” she’s speaking the literal truth. No woman will ever experience 17 times the amount of her own testosterone levels (barring steroids). Amongst its many other effects, testosterone is the primary hormone involved with stimulating human libido. I should also add that, on average, and barring environmental variables, a mans testosterone only declines 1% per year beyond age 40, so even at age 60 the average, healthy male is only dealing with an average 20% deficit in testosterone.
Critics of this observation like to argue that, for female sexual response and arousal, testosterone isn’t the only factor to consider. To which I’ll agree, however it is the PRIMARY factor in sexual response. A woman cannot possibly understand what 12 to 17 times their present amount of testosterone could feel like without steroid use. In fact the first effect female bodybuilders report when cycling anabolic steroids is a 100 fold increase in sexual interest and libido. So in terms of natural female hormonal / biochemical response there is no unaltered way a woman could ever make an accurate comparison to what a man’s baseline libido is in relation to her own. Women’s sexual desire is also cyclical. Even at the peak of her ovulatory cycle, when she’s at her horniest, she’ll never experience what men do 24 hours a day. This is the root of the myth, and the source of the social convention.
Other critics would erroneously argue that estrogen plays a part in female sexual arousal. They’d be wrong.
Estrogen does ‘control’ libido – for men: Estrogen Have a look at the Functions section here. And while you’re at it you may want to have a look at Testosterone; and in particular this:
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I also understand that female sexuality functions differently than male sexuality, but this only reinforces my point. Women’s sexuality is cyclic, not only on a monthly schedule, but also over periods of a lifetime (menopause, and peak fertility for instance). There are periods over a month and a lifetime where sexual desire waxes and wanes, (healthy) men’s stays relatively constant from puberty to about age 40. Women are slower to arouse, they tend to need more than just visual stimulation, and there is definitely a psychological element (they need a fantasy) necessary. Men only need visual stimulation and minimal feedback to get aroused (i.e. porn).
It should come as no shock that post-menopausal hormone therapies use testosterone to boost women’s flagging libidos too. When women are at the peaks of their ovulatory cycles, low and behold they experience a sharp spike in testosterone levels in order to facilitate pregnancy and then it gets flushed out during menstruation. You can debate about how best to get a woman’s testosterone flowing, but it’s testosterone that’s needed to prompt a sexual response.
Now the real question is, why would such a popular myth be such a useful social convention? Think about it. It sexualizes women, while not making them outright sluts. They can avoid the stigma of promiscuity while presenting the fantasy that they are secretly “more sexual” than they are “allowed” to be, if only they could meet a man skilled enough to bring this out in them. It’s a sexual selection convention. The fantasy is that women are really these wolves in sheep’s clothing for the right guy. To an extent this is true. Studies do indicate that women in their peak fertility window do in fact aggressively seek out Alpha males for conventional sexual encounters. However, again, the root of this social convention is in the presumption that “women are just as sexual as men”, which is simply not the case considering the conditionality of the female sexual response.
No self-interested Man is ever going to be encouraged to refute the idea that women are equally preoccupied with, equally aroused as, or equally desirous of sex as men are. We love the fantasy that women are secretly yearning for sex with us, if only society were more open and accepting of feminine sexuality. Yet, in the same breath we’ll hear about how slutty and aggressive women have become in the fall of western society by the same guys. It’s ironic, but it gives guys hope that if they can find the secret formula to unleashing the sexual beast within every woman he’ll find this insatiable she-devil to pair off with monogamously. If women were men’s sexual equals, why would they not be given to the same drives that conflict with monogamy? Imagine a world where women are as horny as men. Think of a gay bath house and you might have a workable model.
Women of course love to encourage and reinforce this social convention because it sounds like empowerment in the face of patriarchal sexual oppression (yes, we’d be more sexual if you’d only allow us to you evil men), while at the same time tacitly acknowledging that it turns men into white knight sympathizers of the cause (i.e. feminine entitlement and primacy).
The point of my starting this topic wasn’t to debate whether or not women are sexual at all – obviously they are – however it was my intent to draw attention to the canard that women (and their would-be male identifiers) would like everyone to believe, “women are just as / more sexual than men”. No woman can make a realistic assessment about that unless she’s had 12 -17 times her natural testosterone levels increased and lived in a man’s biological condition. Just on the face of it the assertion is silly, but as I said, for women it’s empowering to think that women are “just as sexual” as men. And female-identifiers are all too happy to reinforce that meme because it offers them the hope of getting laid with one of these ‘sexually repressed’ women.
I´d say women are horny, period, just not “as” men.
“Imagine a world where women are as horny as men. Think of a gay bath house and you might have a workable model.” To me this is the key to the “women can’t be as horny/sexual as men” meme. If it really were true that women wanted sex as much as men, nothing would ever get done because everyone would be having sex literally all the time, only after eating and voiding. Roissy/heartiste did something like this, saying things like imagine a world where women were as horny as men. People would have sex all the time, everywhere — in… Read more »
He he. You just described a few of my relationships.
Vid is hilarious! As is the feminine premise. Excellent debunk Rollo.
I am a firm believer that both sexes have certain equivalencies, as opposed to being “equal”. It is said that men think about sex every few minutes. I don’t know if this is true because I cannot account for every conscious thought – when I see a woman and my natural male eye for female looks is triggered, am I “thinking” about sex? Or am I just noticing what a woman looks like? When I see an old woman, is my automatic rejection of her as sexually desirable also “thinking about sex”? I suppose at some caveman level it is.… Read more »
“They notice who wields power over whom within an organization (work or social) and whom they should align with in order to catch the wave of someone else’s power.”
So true. I have observed this in several of the corporate, career women I have been involved with. One of them admitted how she loved to watch men spar in the boardroom to show each other who has the biggest balls. These were her words.
Some statistical facts I should add to this analysis: Women masturbate less, fantasize about sex less frequently, and initate sex less often than men. Women report low sexual desire much more often than men. Among medical professionals who treat sexual disorders, low female desire is the single most common complaint. In women, desire is much less likely to initiate orgasm-seeking behavior. Women are much more likely than men to pursue sex for reasons other than sexual pleasure. Women are more likely to report low desire as a result of relationship difficulties. Take that for what it’s worth, but even with… Read more »
When women are feeling down, they turn to porn – aha- but not man porn, power porn, such as sex and the city, or any other similar powerful-woman message.
For many women, “rubbing one off” comes in the form of fantasizing about getting her way in interpersonal relationships.
“Imagine a world where women are as horny as men. Think of a gay bath house and you might have a workable model.”
+1.
Stephen Fry got into lots of trouble for making the same point.
My personal experience has been that women are super horny these days, but I am referring to closed door sexual rendezvous in a relationship, especially in short term relationships where the mate hasn’t been completely secured. I am always amazed at their ability to orgasm, the moans of pleasure, multiple orgasms, and whole body convulsions. At times, I honestly feel left out. I do have to say that I am not super horny like most guys so there is the issue of relative horniness when compared to women. Apart from the time around the period, they seem to be pretty… Read more »
Rollo, what do you think of the gigantic vibrator market? I had never paid attention to this whole female vibrator market, but I was shocked to find out how many millions of vibrators are sold and how often women masturbate. I think there are a lot of women out there who are not getting satisfying sex.
Rollo, amazing series of posts, it is just a matter of time before your blog is swamped with readers. I have to say that you are on of the best writers on male female sexual dynamics. Why don’t you start a sexual dynamics consulting gig? I will be the first one to pay you to help chart my way through these shark infested waters. The hardest part of all this is to tailor it to my own personality, values, style, strengths, and goals, and this is where you could come in. All this could be done by chat or phone.… Read more »
I just want to say this is an excellent blog. Keep up the good work!
The ratio in testosterone levels between the genders are huge but it does not imply a proportional difference in sex desire because male use it for many other purposes. Maybe somebody can google it because I cannot remember the source.
I wonder if there is a masculine equivalent for the word ‘frigid’.
Just found out the public toilet at my local park is the modern equivalent of a gay bath house, definitely didn’t see any women there.
I agree, men are the hornier sex. No doubt. Hands down. But how do we explain the kind of talk coming from women regarding the following article? (“For College Women, Dating Could be Worse Than Hooking Up”) http://jezebel.com/5846500/for-college-women-dating-could-be-worse-than-hooking-up I refer not so much the article in an of itself, but moreso the observations and commentary from women in the “Comments” section. These women discussing amongst themselves seem to infer that it is they who are down for the casual, and actually have a hard time finding men who are prepared for such brutal no-relationship-just-sex honesty from women. Is there really… Read more »
If women were as horny as men, we wouldn’t need prostitutes.
the actual truth notwithstanding, this myth makes great fodder for game material. it is the basis for sexual framing, which is the bestest game technique there is (e.g. the strawberry fields routine).
In terms of analysing relative hormonal levels you are of course right, but there are arguments to the contrary as well. Philosophers from Schopenhauer to Weininger have told us that women are only sexual while men are also sexual… Weininger on this: “It can be shown, moreover, that woman is sexually much more excitable (not more sensitive) physiologically than man. The condition of sexual excitement is the supreme moment of a woman’s life. The woman is devoted wholly to sexual matters, that is to say, to the spheres of begetting and of reproduction. Her relations to her husband and children… Read more »
Totally agree. Listen to this episode of This American Life called “Testosterone”. Listen specifically to Act 2, where a woman undergoing sex change takes testosterone and reports how she feels.
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/220/testosterone
loved this episode. i reference it constantly. glad to see someone else getting it too.
It’s awesome to read such a different opinion. I would say I’m from the school of “women are horny bitches”, but you got me thinking. The thing is, they’re nuts in bed. It blows me away. Even girls who are anorgasmic moan, groan, squeal and want to fuck for hours. But let me entertain your arguments for now. I read your links on testosterone but that doesn’t quite add up for me. Testosterone may be linked to libido, but the article also notes that women are more sensitive to testosterone. My horniest ever girlfriend masturbated every day, sometimes twice or… Read more »
Id just say that the male sexuality is active and the female sexuality is reactive. The female gets aroused in presence of the right conditions and stimuli, while the male is just ON by default.
But put the right male in front of the female and she will be aroused all day long.
The main gist of this post was in debunking the canard that “women are just as sexual, if not more so, than men”, and exploring the reasons for it being a social convention. I’m not arguing that they aren’t sexual at all, nor am I proposing that they aren’t wildly sexual under the right circumstances, just that the popularized comparison is ludicrous.
Understood.
However it depends how you hear “Women are just as sexual as men”.
As “Women want to fuck lots of different men”: disagree
As “Women want to fuck as often as men”: mostly disagree
As “Women enjoy sex as much as men”: strongly agree
I usually take on the last interpretation. You’re right though, the pickup community has a self-serving habit of exaggerating her sex drive.
Women like sex.
No big deal.
[…] predispose her to wanting a child. Perhaps, not so surprisingly, this coincides perfectly with the Myth of Women’s Sexual Peak as well as conveniently being the age demographic just post or just prior to when most women hit […]
This is a late comment, but I figured I would give my two cents anyway. I thoroughly enjoyed this post, but the problem is in order to make these claims you need to thoroughly back them up with real science, not anectodal and circumstancial evidence. Besides that “Billion Wicked Thoughts” book and wikipedia, I didnt see a single citation to back up the claims you make, such as the following: “testosterone isn’t the only factor to consider. To which I’ll agree, however it is the PRIMARY factor in sexual response. ” Evidence please? Where is your citation? Do you seriously… Read more »
[…] women also lack a fundamental understanding of the male sexual impulse. As I’ve stated in prior threads, until women are steeped in 17 times their normal testosterone levels, they will never understand […]
[…] to the cyclic nature of women’s sexuality it’s a misnomer to think that “women are just as sexual as men“, however, to to the importance of sexual selectivity dominance, women are much more sexual […]
[…] of the Wall. The Myth of Sexual Peak, the Myth of the Biological Clock, the social convention that Women are just as Sexual as Men, are all very complex social rationales with the latent purpose of convincing the majority of men […]
it sounds so… simple – testosterone levels. is there all there really is to the sexual drive? Women tend to focus too much on the relationship aspect of sex – the romantic sex. That’s what’s embedded in them by virtue of their looking for a partner to raise children. There are many other aspects, some of which are also difficult for men. We forget The social aspect. Other than 25-35 year olds, so clearly represented on this blog, there are many ways in which being sexual is banned after you’re 30-something. People just put you on the shelf, and want… Read more »
[…] Women & Sex […]
I’d say that both are equally as horny, it’s just that the average woman can find sex anytime she wants it. They’ve got the sexual needs department covered, so they don’t have to appear horny. This is why a decrease of sex in a relationship is usually the first sign of infidelity on the woman’s part
I’d say it mostly has to do with the protection of their feminine ego, so that men don’t see them as sluts.
It’s very uncommon for a lady to walk up to a guy to say how see feels about him, rather men a meant to do the talking.
I would attribute this to why ladies use sex toys in secrecy, instead of making her sexual urge and desires known to men.
It’s not as if ladies don’t feel it, but they pretend not to feel it to avoid being seen as sluts.
[…] guns down 7 women in a pilates class. As I’ve stated before, when a woman tells you “I don’t understand why sex is sooooo important to guys“, she’s telling you the literal […]
@casaanova
“I’d say that both are equally as horny, it’s just that the average woman can find sex anytime she wants it.”
Circular reasoning.
It’s because men can’t say no.
[…] I stated in Women & Sex, until a woman lives in 12.5 to 17 times her present testosterone levels 24/7 she cannot ever […]
[…] [Women & Sex] […]
[…] [Women & Sex] […]
[…] example of a woman using every nasty word in the book). Rollo then left a link to his article, Women & Sex, perhaps thinking that alcesti and I meant that women have higher sex drives than men. I […]
Pretty much everything about this article is incorrect unfortunately. Men may have more testosterone, but they are ironically also much less responsive to testosterone. Women are extremely sensitive to it, therefore they simply don’t need as much. If women had the same amounts as men while maintaining the sensitivity to it that they have now, I reckon they’d literally need to be hospitalized. It’d have to be crippling. Everything else in regards to the way women ‘report’ feelng desire is also pretty easily explained by social pressures for women to NOT express themselves sexually. When few women do they are… Read more »
This is obviously a relevant issue as it is still receiving comments two years after it’s initial posting.
No one needs to say this, but backing it up with facts makes one take a look at things a little bit more rationally. Thank you.
women are just typically disatisfied & never fully appeased. only a woman knows what a woman wants/needs. im glad im a gay man. you women are picky & far too demanding. if only more men were gay.
[…] Artículo de Rollo Tomassi, The Rational Male […]
The anecdotal experience from all my previous relationships is that it was always the woman who wanted more sex, was the one initiating it more often and was triggered by very simple stimuli like me cuddling up to her or doing some twerking joke where I rub my butt on her for a brief moment. I do not consider myself asexual at all and the difference in appetite was only by a small margin (i.e. I am totally satisfied after 3 or 4 rounds a day, she could go another one or two), but they especially seem to “regenerate” faster.… Read more »
Roy Baumeister is the go-to guy on the subject matter…
http://m.psychologytoday.com/blog/cultural-animal/201012/the-reality-the-male-sex-drive
It’s the reason why the back of my local newspaper has ads for gentleman’s clubs, rub n tugs, escorts, etc… at least half a dozen back pages devoted to it. All for male consumption because of male demand. There is nothing even remotely close on that scale for female demand in sexual release with another flesh and blood body. The closest women get are vibrator sales coupled with the run on 50 Shades of Grey and Magic Mike rentals. Even then… it still doesn’t scratch the surface of how often men do the deed solo. Coincidentally, i think it’s why… Read more »
This article is a huge lie. Women are aroused by visual stimulation, just like men. Trust me, I’ve slept with numerous women who approached me for sex because they told me I was hot. Most men believe women don’t want sex because they have lower testosterone levels on average than men and are bullied by our stupid society into acting like nuns. Another common internet lie is that women only like jerks, most of them don’t but some were abused by their fathers and aren’t used to being treated fairly so they seek out men who remind them of their… Read more »
Rollo, I’m a regular reader and understand and agree with the above post. I have a question it doest cover though, does pregnancy affect a woman’s sexual desire physically or will she still fuck an alpha if the opportunity presents its self?
My wife is pregnant and my sex life has stalled. Having looked on medical sites they say there are physical factors and recommend councilling lol!!!!!!
Anyway would love to hear your take on the topic.
[…] second example comes from Women and Sex in which I explore the fallacy of the social convention that insists “women are just as […]
[…] Women & Sex | – The Rational Male – Some statistical facts I should add to this analysis: Women masturbate less, fantasize about sex less frequently, and initate sex less often than men…. […]
Rollo, do you have a link with the female bodybuilder’s testimony? I couldn’t find it in here nor in Speardhead’s article.
[…] post you may want to before Saturday. Considering it falls on a weekend and the impending “we’re just as sexual as men” lather women will likely work themselves into over 50 Shades, it might be a good refresher. […]
I feel , from my experiences , Woman’s sexual capacity and system is biologically diff from a man’s . Her capacity to enjoy is much higher ( multiple orgasms ) while a man would have to wait , while he has spent himself , to regroup . Man is like fire , woman is water , You have to heat her up slowly , then the real nature will come out as we see , in case of cold women – who become highly sexual under right circumstances . Women are highly sexual , Men are too , but then… Read more »
Again, many of the people commenting on this article need to take that reading comprehension class (again). It’s been stated over and over (and over) again that women do get aroused and they are sexual. The frequency in which men are sexual is greater…..that’s all. I don’t know what it is but many commenters choose to “cherry pick” certain things said and then run with it. It’s a typical move by anyone trying to defend the FI and what is considered the “normal” conventions in society today. It’s simply not true (and even the video at the beginning has to… Read more »
It was a helpful belief that allowed me to feel like the girl wanted, and liked for me to have sex with her. What are you replacing this belief with? Nothing. So thanks a lot, thanks for weakening my helpful belief pillar and not replacing it with something else..
[…] Rollo Tomassi explain how important healthy testosterone levels are in http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/04/women-sex/ […]
[…] Rollo Tomassi explain how important healthy testosterone levels are in http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/04/women-sex/ […]
I was going through comments on TRP few weeks, when some one post a link to your blog; stating how your blog helped him even though he’s 50yrs old….well you know the rest 😀
This article is on point, thank you for sharing…
Fun is when you bang a chick and forget her name.
Entourage
This is what I have noticed. A woman that fits into what the larger group of women would agree is the norm, with respect to behavior around the issue of chasteness (i.e. – to outwardly display, to the social group, some reservation around the issue), will be a better sexual partner. This woman needs to be led, step by step, into the deeper realms of sexual gratification. It requires some work on my part (the man’s part), but is worth it because it feels like you are sharing intimacy, when this happens (and can be every bit, if not more,… Read more »
@Wild Man and Andy:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/10/good-girls-do/
Hi Rollo: Thank-you for the redirect. I have read a whole lot of your articles over the last 2 years (and really enjoy – your writing is intensely thought-provoking) but I guess am still distilling through my own bias. I haven’t read the Robert Greene’s “The Art of Seduction” yet, but I think I will now. So perhaps I should be inferring that I have a soft spot for “The Natural”, and yes – I think for me that is true. Yet I can’t help but notice that the degree of intimacy I feel when the sexual relationship is going… Read more »
Hi Rollo:
Just to clarify, when referring to “The Natural” above, I am emphasizing the trait of kindness, reading it via social behavior and not so much what is verbalized in a direct way (i.e – I may be using the term “The Natural” in a different way than you of Robert Greene intended).
I’ve read the book.
OK – It seems like you are saying I should read Robert Greene’s book and I will find the answer to my quandary (question) there? OK – I will try that next. Thank-you for the advice.
[…] you hear or read the trope that “women are just as sexual as men” what’s being related to you is founded in the same egalitarian root that teaches us to […]
[…] This is a controversial idea. Rollo Tomassi, who has done a lot of work that has helped many men, says that “Women’s sexual desire is also cyclical.” (By “also”, Rollo means […]
Nonsense !! This article is nothing but Nonsense !! — By the way I thank God for low testosterone in women so my girlfriend will not attend any baths (similar to Gay bath).. Hahehe.. at the same time I thank God for the most wonderful, magical, fairy, soothing & pleasurable hormone that called ‘OXYTOXIN’ which is high in women with great intensity– so that my girlfriend will always initiate such a bath with me.. Hahahe— Man, you are such a loser for believing that testosterone that all matters. Get a life.. and thank God for his perfect system, he created… Read more »
Ok I see this is an oldish thread but I feel compelled to share my thoughts as I feel they explain the whole men’s sex drive is stronger than women’s. When it comes down to PIV sex, men naturally get more out of it than women do. Do the research if you must, but it’s true. So yeah, vibrator/dildo sales stats are misleading because they only reflect how often a woman will do it on her own when orgasm is a sure thing versus letting a guy make it happen and be hit or miss on the orgasm front. We… Read more »
[…] The final nail in the coffin of this nonsense is women’s libido depends on their menstrual cycle. They get more sexually receptive around ovulation time. While we are sexually receptive to every women we find attractive. For a much more detailed review check out Rollo’s post. […]
groupie, speak for yourself… as the women i know probably like PIV sex even more than i do. maybe that’s because WE took the time, exerted the energy, and were patient enough THRU COMMUNICATION, to find out exactly what WE needed to have a full experience.
when it can’t happen, then the toys are used to help.
This article is very illogical. Women need less testosterone to be horny and estrogen plays a big role in sex drive for women.
Rollo
https://books.google.com/books?id=IRl4CwAAQBAJ&pg=PA1&lpg=PA1&dq=property+sex+compilation&source=bl&ots=pmuKjxpTfL&sig=gbsaR-4NJ-gzvx6EaP-fF0N3ThI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjfo8qj97nQAhXDVyYKHXhFCIo4FBDoAQgfMAI#v=onepage&q=property%20sex%20compilation&f=false
So I take it you didn’t bother to read the link about estrogen being libido suppressing? Or the part about women’s sexuality being cyclical? Or the part that men produce anywhere between 12-17 times the serum testosterone of women?
Yes dear I read that ultra bullshit. I don’t believe what other people tell me. Especially when I have all the facts.
Yes dear I read that ultra bullshit. I don’t believe what other people tell me. Especially when I have all the facts.
[…] and women being equal should also share equal attitudes, prompts, and appetites for sex. This is a biological impossibility of course, but the conversation serves as a stark illustration of women expecting feminized men to identify […]
[…] : Women & Sex Çeviren : […]
[…] of commitment.” Now also consider how much women enjoy dating around. Let’s be honest, it’s not because they’re just as horny as men all the time. Just as a man considers himself to have “conquered” or been “successful” […]
[…] of commitment.” Now also consider how much women enjoy dating around. Let’s be honest, it’s not because they’re just as horny as men all the time. Just as a man considers himself to have “conquered” or been “successful” […]