“Your charming personality and bulletproof Game won’t make you look any better when your shirt comes off.”
This may come as a shock to the “men have impossibly high beauty standards” gnashing of feminist teeth, but it is in fact women who have a much higher standard for an idealized male physique. For all the endless kvetching from women about men wanting “living barbie dolls”, it’s men who’ve historically displayed much broader interests in female body habitus than women ever have.
You see, men will very readily cater their physical sexual “preferences” in accordance with what has proven sexually successful for them in past experiences. In other words, men tend to return to the same watering hole they found to be plentiful in the past. These preferences of convenience manifest themselves as ‘fetishes’ for men. And you don’t even need all that extensive research to prove this. All one need do is search the vast variety of porn available catering to the physical attributes that men will fetishize. Big boobs, small boobs, big ass, small ass, every hair color of the rainbow, shaved snatch, hairy snatch, teen girls to MILFs and older, tan, pale, ultra-thin to the ubiquitous BBWs (Big Beautiful women). Ladies, name the physical attribute(s), and there’s a fan-group just waiting to bang you. Rule 34 was never more provable than in men’s willingness to fuck damn near any physical demographic of women – just ask the female midgets catering to that fetish of porn.
On the other hand, from a purely physical perspective, it’s women’s idealized masculine form that hasn’t changed in millennia. While there may have been a rubenesque period when men loved the fatties of the 1600′s, no such era ever existed for women’s physical preferences. The classic broad chest, wide shoulders, six-pack abs and squared jaws of greco-roman athleticism are still the idealized male form that has graced EVERY romance novel cover in existence. I’m still waiting for someone to post me a link for a dating site that caters exclusively to women’s fetish of BBMs – average to good looking, fit women specifically looking overweight men. Executive Introductions caters to women seeking affluent, influential men, but women just looking for overweight men, that site doesn’t exist.
Now, with this, don’t think for a moment I’m refuting the prevailing bio-mechanical wisdom that prompts the vast majority of men towards the sexual want of a slender and archetypically sexy woman. That’s hardwired for us, but ladies, stop your bitching about men’s perception of beauty and how unfair it is to be subjectively compared in the physical as a basis for your personal worth. By historical comparison, women’ve got it easy when it comes to physicality. Unless you are an extreme outlier of physical deformity, there’s probably a niche of porn that specifically caters to your body habitus. And in terms of effort, it takes far more sweat and determination for men to build a man’s body into a masculine physical ideal than it will EVER be for women to achieve a form that men wont find sexually appealing to some degree. Try to keep that in mind when you’re complaining about the stress you’re experiencing in contemplating the social implications of getting a boob job or how expensive your next botox injection will be.
Men’s attraction filters are much, much wider than women’s. There are any number of women who appear physically attractive to men. And there are any number of female physical attributes that men find attractive.
But there is only ONE male physical attractiveness paradigm: tall, dark, handsome, V-shaped torso, broad shoulders, muscle definition, six pack abs.
They say there are women who are “chubby chasers”. I’ve never met one.
It amazes me that despite the relatively small investment with the potential of HUGE rewards that come with getting in shape that more western women don’t take advantage of this to help improve their SMV. The gym I go to is in an affluent urban area. There are probably more women in this area than men. Yet, when I roll in to the gym the ratio of men to women is usually at least 60/40, and the ratio of men who are in shape to women who are in shape is probably more like 70/30. This is yet another symptom… Read more »
Wow! I have NEVER thought of this before.
I’ve been saying this for years. Feminists talk of double standards and as far as I’m concerned in the sexual market place there is no double standard higher then this.
We hear women shouting “big is beautiful” and “curves are sexy” and “I dont have to be a barbie doll!” Yet we as men are still expected to be Ken.
Couldn’t this be explained by the lower priority women place on physical attributes? You know, why hot young chicks with ugly older powerful dudes is commonplace, whereas the opposite is rare. Men are more particular students of the female form than vice versa. It stands to reason they will fixate on certain “fetish” niches. Now add male sexual aggressiveness, the relative unavailability of the “archetypically sexy woman” for the median schmoe, and you get fattie and furry fuckers. Men turn to each other in womanless prisons. We’ll stick dick in a splintery fence post notch if we have to. The… Read more »
I would explain the more exacting female standards for male beauty as part of the female drive for hypergamy.
I find this post’s accompanying picture and the slogan across it to be offensive and a flimsy exculpation of women’s behavior.
The image they provide: paunchy, fat rolls and a double chin.
That’s no more ‘natural’ than anything they decry.
Agreed, most women do not look like supermodels and never will. But who’s asking them to have perfectly symmetrical features and a photogenic quality bordering on the supernatural?
I believe men, on the whole, will be at least mildly interested if a woman looks as though she can lift more than an ice-cream scoop.
Rollo, Men may have more variety in what they find attractive physically in women, but they do hold women to standards they often can’t meet. One of the main and biggest ones is AGE. Women are made to feel worthless once they hit a certain age. A woman cannot control aging. So while men may be lenient in other areas of physical acceptance based on his visual standards, they are still very much focused on making women feel that they are only worthy of male attention while still very young. Women do not hold men up to standards they cannot… Read more »
Neecy, I do agree that you have a point regarding women and aging. However, this is nothing more than the temporal nature of all things balancing the scales. Women have much great power in their early years and lose it later. I can’t think of one woman that complained about getting too much attention from men she found desirable in my college years (which loosely matches a woman’s peak SMV). I disagree with you here: “Women do not hold men up to standards they cannot control ” Had this been the world it was even 40 years ago, I may… Read more »
Google “MILF”. Then Google “granny porn”. Then say “I was wrong”.
BTW that picture and caption you have up – that message they send irks me. I think its a horrible messgae for women to believe that slacking off on their weight is and should be accetable. That doll has FAT ROLLS and normal healthy women should not have fat rolls. I did this for too long and not only did it cost me some of my better prime years, but its simply not healthy. This idea of “accept me as I come fat rolls and all” is a very bad message. Its indoctrinating a lot of women to be unhealthy… Read more »
You need to read the post again Neecy. Rollo’s point wasn’t that women hold men to impossible standards, it is that women hold men to high standards while calling them “shallow” for having standards of their own.
Of course, being a woman, it is in your nature to either ignore or deny that such double standards exist.
feh.. women also go to the same well they found that works. i’ve seen it. it’s human nature and we both do it. obese women don’t go to their death beds as virgins because they are holding out for mr. 6 pack.
Sorry, but this post is an epic fail. It is practically a platitude that hot girls get with all sorts of guys, short, fat, balding, stout, thin, long hair, short hair, to the point where men saying *what does she see in him?* is proverbial, which would not be the case if hot girls only got with square jawed he-mans. And just as romance novels all have one type of guy, mens magazines all have one type of girl, usually blond, curvy, big breasted, and voluptous – duh! In reality, lots of girls swoon over shaggy haired hipsters and are… Read more »
You mad sis?
“I’m still waiting for someone to post me a link for a dating site that caters exclusively to women’s fetish of BBMs – average to good looking, fit women specifically looking overweight men. Executive Introductions caters to women seeking affluent, influential men, but women just looking for overweight men, that site doesn’t exist.”
What part of that quote do you disagree with?
gggg:
Just because you happen to see a good looking woman with a short, fat, bald guy doesn’t mean she finds him physically attractive. She is probably using him. She is probably an entitlement princess and he meets her “needs”. Or she is a gold digger.
Women use men for all kinds of reasons. These are just two.
Come to think of it, he is using her for sex. She is using him for money. I’ve just described about 75% of all contemporary marriages.
Ouch.
I’ve never been married myself, but the feedback I’m getting from married men is not good.
Perhaps, but just because you see guys with all kinds of fetishes does not mean the guys finds these girls the most attractive, they just are the sorts of girls who those guys can get. Thing is, I personally know girls who like, say, the Johnny Depp type and others who see nothing in Johnny Depp and love the BRad Pitt athletic type. I know girls who like the emo hipster type and despise muscular square jawed types, and vice versa. Go to the hipster bars of NYC and you will see seriously hot chics lining up for artsy men… Read more »
But if they are fetishes.. then why would a man fantasise/have a fetish for women he’s only slightly attracted to, rather than what he is very attracted to? Why watch porn that features women you aren’t too keen on?
As for the other part of your comment, I think there are several types girls like. Still strange though, that there is no fat man porn, because many women do like fat men. I was so disappointed when I found none.
[…] expected it appears that yesterday’s Women’s Physical Standards post drew a bit of consternation from both sides of the aisle. Women predictably want to cling to […]
@ A, I agree but many times what women desire physically in men and what they end up liking in a particular man can vary and be different. Yeah i or many women may fantasize about the hot tall stud with broad shoulders and a six pack and that v shaped thingy that leads down his pelvis area, but the reality is, that is not *all* that makes a man attractive. A man can make up for his lack of physical attractiveness aesthetically (or those physical desired traits) by having a really confident masculine demeanor and personality. A man like… Read more »
GLC and JONNY, I understand what Rollo is getting at but it still doesn’t make things easier for women simply b/c there are a variety of men who fetish certain things phsycially/sexually in women. Will the average man marry a MILF or fatty over a slim conventionally attractive woman? Will he make her his wife and allow her to have his children? If all men could have a choice in who they pick as their wives & g/f’s would the choice look very similar? YES. Will he be proud of all these women he fetishes over the girl who all… Read more »
In many cases a man will even ignore his raw sexual desire for say a woman with lots of curves and go for the modelesque woman b/c he would receive more positive reinforcement from outsiders for having the young model looking woman on his arm – EVEN if she doesn’t arouse him like a thicker or somewhat curvier woman This is true, and it’s not surprising that a black woman such as yourself understands this, while the vast majority of white women don’t. The majority of white men — who, research shows, like a woman neither particulary thick NOR thin… Read more »
Sangfroid, YES! But its not just WHite women and WHite men whom assume this. All races of women and men assume that WHite men love and prefer thinness and that Black men prefer thickness. i believe this to be true ON AVERAGE but the general idea and reality is men do like a variety. I would even admit that I believe White men are more into thinness and possibly why many WHite women do strive to attain such on average. And you are right. Men like curves and fat in the RIGHT PLACES – not in areas that signify inflammation… Read more »
Neecy- “Men may have more variety in what they find attractive physically in women, but they do hold women to standards they often can’t meet. One of the main and biggest ones is AGE. Women are made to feel worthless once they hit a certain age. A woman cannot control aging. So while men may be lenient in other areas of physical acceptance based on his visual standards, they are still very much focused on making women feel that they are only worthy of male attention while still very young. Women do not hold men up to standards they cannot… Read more »
This makes me want to change my workout program.
Instead of bulking up to gain muscle mass, I think I should be doing more aerobic type exercise in order to get lean and chiseled. I have big shoulders whether I work out or not, maybe I should go for that small waist.
Don’t stop lifting weights, don’t do long duration aerobics either. It is a good idea to get lean, as leanness promotes T which will help you build muscle later. But you don’t want to end up skinny.
Keep lifting and building/sparing muscle in the gym, and lose fat in the kitchen. Google Leangains.
The big problem for men isn’t even the women have a difficult to attain body standard for men. It’s that women don’t even like men aesthetics very much at all to begin with.
[…] similar to how you look physically is part of you. It’s a comfortable fiction to think that women are less interested in a man’s physique, or should be attracted to a guy unbiased by what he does – but these are all part of a whole. […]
[…] be more acceptable future providers while breeding in the short-term with men embodying their very specific physical ideal. This is precisely the reason why the “kidult / man-up” phenomenon is so vexing for […]
[…] – I catch as much or more vitriol from the manosphere when I post something like Looks Count or Women’s Physical Standards and the importance women actually do place on a man’s […]
[…] the beauty industry. There’s no escaping the fact that men decide what is beautiful in women (and vice versa). Slogans feeding unearned entitlement (“you deserve it”) or fantasy anti-ageing […]
[…] is offensive, but we are far more forgiving in our arousal cues that women will ever be in their own physical standards. HB’s & SE’s Since so much has been made of HB scales and ratings I don’t […]
First time commenting here, and I’m obviously very late to the party. I think this post unintentionally debunks the Roissyian claim that today’s ideal of feminine beauty is immutable and has been consistent across time and culture. Roissy claims that a woman is practically worthless once her BMI creeps above 20, and much of the Manosphere would have you believe that it’s the Mighty God Evolution that dictates this—not the standards imposed by our technologically driven, hyper-visual culture, coupled with a yearning toward the extreme opposite of our collectively obese state. (The fatter we get, the thinner our ideal gets.)… Read more »
Women with a “few pounds” of fat are indeed usually more attractive and fertile, but “a few pounds” means a few pounds, not sixty. Men’s standards have certainly not become more strict. Roissy is just emphasizing that men should have some standards, which is what has become an alien concept in our diseased and debased culture. The standard hasn’t changed, it’s just that men take what they can get, even though it means going against their nature and being disgusted with themselves. Hypergamy, on the other hand, is more stable because it doesn’t care.
[…] more advantageous to his personality type. Nor will I speculate that it may have been his Look and physique that led to a 5 minute kiss-close. I don’t have to because all of this was predictably […]
Six months of smart training and nutritional intervention can completely transform a man’s body. The physique is attainable, perhaps not the model cover body, but a downsized version of that. The tools are available it’s just that most people in the gym are not really doing it right.
Actually some women DO have fetishes for the unconventional.
For example, I know several hot women who are SPECIFICALLY attracted to bald men, and I know some hot women who are SPECIFICALLY attracted to big bearish, fat looking men, a.k.a. “teddy bears.” Not the muscular lean guys, big bouncer looking guys.
That said, I mainly agree with every fiber of this article. The guy who looks like a romance-novel cover model will not need to learn much about pickup. He’ll only need develop a mindset of abundance, non-neediness, and persistence, and he will be riding high.
[…] 1. Culturally it is acceptable to shame guys for being shallow to overlook fatties great personalities 2. No guy puts on their profile header that they’re looking for a really great fat/plump/few extra pounds/plus sized/bbw person (unless it’s their fetish) […]
[…] 1. Culturally it is acceptable to shame guys for being shallow to overlook fatties great personalities 2. No guy puts on their profile header that they’re looking for a really great fat/plump/few extra pounds/plus sized/bbw person (unless it’s their fetish) […]
[…] have far more rigid prerequisites for what makes an acceptable man for an LTR than men do for women. Women base their estimate of a […]
Mainstream companies and mainstream media has a long time ago adapted to our hopeless fat zombie world – the money is where the majority is, right… What a horrible ad. Dont support fat people – tell them the truth: You are fat, you need to lose weight, NOW. Throw that cake away darling…
“Couldn’t this be explained by the lower priority women place on physical attributes? You know, why hot young chicks with ugly older powerful dudes is commonplace, whereas the opposite is rare.” Because there are almost no older powerful women. Women can be the the sugar momma and increase their relationship value, if they bother with it. They need to stop bitching about the fact that once they turn 30 they start being treated more like men, and if they are losers, they will be treated as losers (even though not quite as badly as the male ones). “Men turn to… Read more »
“Women are made to feel worthless once they hit a certain age.”
That is because they have been made to feel like a billion bucks before it. What women feel when they hit the wall is what men feel their entire lives.
“Women do not hold men up to standards they cannot control – like aging. A man can go get a six pack and tight body.”
Yes, they do. Ever heard of height?
“Many reproductive endocrinologists will tell you that your chances of conceiving are actually better if you’re a few pounds overweight, and I think men in the past recognized this at some level.”
Or maybe they didn’t, and the reason they get pregnant more easily is precisely because they have to in order to compensate for less sex.
“Women do not hold men up to standards they cannot control – like aging. A man can go get a six pack and tight body.”
Seriously, this is an insane comment. Women hold men up to aging standards. A man doesn’t automatically become attractive as he goes from 20 to 35, that increase in his value is a reflection of his increased social-status. I’m pretty sure a 60 year old loser woman will find it easier to get laid than a 60 year old loser man.
There are unrealistic standards on both sides. I am generally considered attractive; long dark hair, hourglass figure, long legs, not exactly a Victoria’s Secret model, but fairly fit and tanned from cycling. I tend to go for nerdy guys who share my obsession with DnD, comics, books, and League. They come in all shapes and sizes, and I consider my current interest to be out of my league since he is by far more intelligent than I am. He is built like a scarecrow, tall, scrawny, if I am honest with myself, buzz cut, pale from sitting in front of… Read more »
Perhaps media and other visual outlets have portrayed the supposed ideal female appearance way WAY too much. With typical slender bodies, symmetrical faces, perky breasts, and perhaps a little height with long hair being the norm…my god that can get boring. I see that ideal everday, and as a woman who is proud of her body, I’m quite glad I don’t fit in with that stereotype. Now I can’t really speak from a man’s perspective, but because I am open-minded I would be inclined to search for other options regarding the female and her body as visual stimuli.
[…] The confusion that most Beta men make is presuming that what women list as being necessarily ‘attractive’ IS what makes him ‘arousing’. So when he models himself (often over the course of a lifetime) to personally identify with this checklist of attractive prerequisites he’s often frustrated and angered when all of that personal development makes for little difference when a woman opts to regularly fuck men of a better physical standard. […]
I think this article makes several good points. But, I have to play devil’s advocate here. I see several people using PUA terminology. Isn’t the whole PUA theory based on the concept that women will set aside their physical list for a smooth charming slick willy? While there is greater range of men’s desires in types of female bodies, in my opinion women are more quick to set aside their preferences. It just doesn’t work for men the same way as for women. (Virtually) no amount of kindness/loyalty/humor = boner for men, if the looks of the women didn’t give… Read more »
@John D, you should really join the comment thread here:
http://therationalmale.com/2014/09/01/the-myth-of-the-good-guy/#comments
But before you do, read these posts:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/02/23/looks-count/
http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/13/have-a-look/
I read the first few paragraphs of the first link. Your arguments are very well laid out and either evidence based or reasoning based. I’ve tripped over citizen renegade’s page here and there and mostly find it informative, but off the cuff I would say your writing seems a little more professional. I also don’t see the hordes of (possible) future Elliot Rodger virgins in mama’s basement who seem to have a mad-on against women posting in your comments either. Not that I give a shit about women’s feelings, but that shit gets old fast. I will keep your page… Read more »
I’m a chubby chaser. My favorite physique admittedly has broad shoulders–as I don’t like wide hips on men–but typically the guy is 200-300 lbs and about 5’6″ to 5’10”. Oh, and hairy. Like year round sweater style. The only issue I have with the bigger men is the bigger man boobs. I like small breasts on both men and women. Flat isn’t wanted, but hanging is unattractive to me. I don’t like when women’s boobs hang (I really do like small boobs), so I think that’s a good indicator of how I’d like men’s boobs to be. Anyhow, I DO… Read more »
i wouldnt go as far as im a full on chubby chaser as as i have my limits for size but i could care less about broad shoulders or v shape and i absolutely hate muscles. they gross me out.. i actually have been fattening up my boyfriend for the last six years weve been together. you cant cuddle a skinny muscled guy first of all its just uncomfortable and i like having stuff to grab on to and when a guys got some chunk going on hes like a personal heater 🙂 i think that whoever wrote this didnt… Read more »
“By historical comparison, women’ve got it easy when it comes to physicality”. – “stop your bitching”
End…of!
[…] 2011 I wrote Women’s Physical Standards and I think it bears […]
[…] an afterthought, that they are entitled to an attractive guy who works out and meets or exceeds women’s very stringent and static physical ideal. At the same time they expect an entitlement to absolute control of that attraction/arousal process […]
All I can think of is rugby and just being fit to your best possible…
[…] témakörében. A cikkhez két angol nyelvű írást hívtam segítségül, ezek eredetiben itt és itt […]
[…] In Women’s Physical Standards I briefly outlined the concept of men’s fetishization of their ‘type’ preferences when it comes to women: […]
I find fat chicks disgusting. Partly because it isn’t physically attractive, partly because it shows the woman has absolutely no ambition or willpower.
Also, Caitlyn Jenner is not attractive.
[…] uncomfortable truth is that women have far higher, far more static and far more stringent physical ideals for men than men will ever have for women when it comes to basic visceral arousal cues. Yes, I understand […]
Fat guys have shorter dicks than they would if they were thinner. The layer of fat eats up the base.
We’re not dumb.
Women do it a lot too. They don’t prefer obese or too jacked up or overly skin and bones guys. They do not like balding guys, although all that gets rationalized to a great extent if they fall in love, but lots of hair that can be styled IS always a plus. A lot of girls do care about skin colour. Many more want their ideal men to be lean and muscular (the exact specs varies), well groomed and stylishly dressed. They really want their girlfriends to comment on how “smart” or “hot” their boyfriend or husband is. Flawless skin,… Read more »
The irony of it is that these are the same women who criticize men for physically evaluating a girl. As usual, it goes on to show the political nature of the female mind, and it’s inability to understand male instinct.
[…] about the conventional dating advice about being yourself. It doesn’t work. Looks matter. Women’s physical standards are tougher than men’s. With all the benefits you get, there’s no excuse to be fat and not to […]
“You see, men will very readily cater their physical sexual “preferences” in accordance with what has proven sexually successful for them in past experiences. In other words, men tend to return to the same watering hole they found to be plentiful in the past. These preferences of convenience manifest themselves as ‘fetishes’ for men.” This applies to women too. But they have a more limited set of fetishes. Not all women have the same tastes, but every one of them repeats a kind of “type” in their lives. For example, the chick who likes bald men, repeat that fetishe in… Read more »
It’s true. Men have all sorts of issues, i.e. height, small penis, excessive hair, baldness, that they have absolutely no control over and yet women often feel no shame for teasing them about it. Then these same women flip their lid when their SO delicately hints that they could use a few pounds…not very ‘equal’. I like what the Average Married Dad writes about what husbands really want: respect, appreciation for their hard work, and frequent, enthusiastic sex. Not rocket science. So, reading your blog: I’m a conservative Mormon who married at 21 and has never slept with anyone other… Read more »
[…] 2011 roku poczyniłem wpis noszący tytuł Women’s Physical Standards i uważam, że wypada tu przytoczyć jego […]
I would like to know how you got your information on what was the masculine ideal in the 1600’s? It seems that the large majority of painters, sculptor, writers etc. were all male at that time. You are not getting a picture of what females idealized in male form but what other males idealized in the male form.