(h/t Zelscorpion for the screen cap)
In Women Behaving Badly I made mention of Dalrock’s standing assertions that the context of romantic love has superseded the condition of a committed monogamy – traditionally marriage – as an idealized goal-state. Essentially this represents a reversal of a previous intersexual dynamic that served as a check and balance of women’s innate Hypergamy:
What nearly all modern Christians have done is place romantic love above marriage. Instead of seeing marriage as the moral context to pursue romantic love and sex, romantic love is now seen as the moral place to experience sex and marriage. This inversion is subtle enough that no one seems to have noticed, but if you look for it you will see it everywhere.
Lifetime marriage, with separate defined roles for husband and wife and true commitment is what makes sex and romantic love moral in the biblical view. In our new view, romantic love makes sex moral, and the purpose of marriage is to publicly declare that you are experiencing the highest form of romantic love. Thus people now commonly refer to a wedding as “making our love official”.
The gradations we now apply to romantic love are symptomatic of the problem. We take great care to distinguish between “pure love” or “true love” and mere “infatuation” or “puppy love”.
[…] Because it is love and not marriage which now confers morality upon sex, sex outside of marriage is now considered moral so long as you are in love. Thus we have the modern harlot’s defense/anthem “but we were in love!”
I think what Dal was getting at with this (and I hope he’ll comment) has a much broader reach than just in Christian (“Churchian”) culture. I think this raising of romantic love to the highest order is more punctuated in a religious context because, doctrinally, it should be the reverse. In an objective secular context this reversal is all but taken for granted.
In an age of feminine social primacy women’s feelings of romance are at a premium. We matter of factly presume that it’s a man’s responsibility to not only invest himself in, and provide resources for, his wife and children’s wellbeing, but it’s also (almost exclusively) his burden of performance to stimulate and maintain his wife’s romantic interests.
I’ve argued the position that women (of today) don’t find the ‘good guy‘ – a man attempting to embody the best aspects of Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks – a believable role. My assertion is that women expect and desire those aspects in different men at different times as needed, however, the social narrative still places that “best of both aspects” burden on a man who does commit to a woman in the long term.
With the exception of only the most adept, affluent and exceptional of men, this expectation is a sisyphean recipe for failure. No matter which aspect he excels in the other aspect potentially becomes his personal flaw. Although his personal strengths may compensate, feminine-primary social expectations place him in a no-win position.
Wives Hate Sex
Badpainter and Sun Wukong had an interesting exchange in this week’s comment thread:
Newgal states clearly women must be sluts for men to get laid. This also means women must be sluts for women to get laid. Why must that be true? Because Newgal alludes to a dirty little truth so ingrained in the social consciousness it’s a cliché: wives hate sex. Therefore women, sluts and otherwise, get married so they can stop having sex except as necessary to get pregnant.
Think about it.
The girlfriend provides sex good enough to motivate a desire in the man to commit. After the wedding is a period of at least adequate sex followed by a decline to little or nothing if she can get away with this. When the wife becomes suitably frustrated/disenchanted with the marriage she changes title to divorcée and is again free to become a sexual creature.
The source of the problem is that women have very little sense of self that is internally derived therefore they play roles defined externally. These roles are proxies for their identities which barely exist. In 2015 wives are not defined as sexually giving, or sexual at all except for the honeymoon period. If the sexual wife exists in this culture it as the adulteress giving herself to men other than her husband.
Sun Wukong
Oh absolutely. The wife that hates sex is such a “thing” now I really think it’s what makes even Blue Pill guys at least pause on their way to the altar. “Do I really want to put a libido draining fat license on her finger?” I think that premise is largely built out of feminine cynicism about settling for [Beta Bucks]. They all know the script so well that they assume they’re going to marry a guy they don’t want to fuck. Imagine that: assuming you’re going to hate sex for the rest of your life.
What a horrendously awful view of a man you haven’t even met yet. And he’s not even met you but assumes he’ll be happily making love to you for the rest of his life and you’ll do the same. What a disconnect. Oh well, at least the kids will be happy right? Anybody?
What Badpainter and Sun have illustrated here is the direct result of placing a romantic condition for love as the prime requisite for a committed relationship. It’s important to grasp that any relationship founded on genuine desire will necessitate genuine passion and not a small amount of feral lust, however, it is exactly this pre-commitment (Alpha Fucks) sexual chemistry that will later become the exclusive responsibility of a man in that commitment.
The character that is a wife is now socially and popularly expected to move into a sexless, passionless and unexciting condition by being married today. All Epiphany Phase rationalizations aside, marriage is viewed as the end of the party. Being a wife is boring by comparison.
I explored this in detail in Beta Fucks and As Good As It Gets, but what I find ironic in light of Dalrock’s assertions about romance-primary intergender dynamics is that the very pretense of that romantic “true love” context that supposedly legitimizes sex is killed within the confines of marriage. In fact, women expect and anticipate that the sexual desire they find so important in that romantic context will necessarily die once they become a ‘wife’.
The pretext of being a ‘wife’ is a socially excusable expectation of progressively losing sexual affinity for the man she’s agrees to marry, so what woman wants to be a wife? Women become wives due to the necessities an ever-decreasing capacity to maintain being a lover requires of them.
I expect that most women will disagree with me on a personal level; it’s not in women’s best interest to acknowledge that wives hate sex – perpetuating the belief that sex gets better after marriage is a necessity men need to internalize in order to commit. Whether or not this is true for a woman on a personal basis isn’t my point. The point is that the societal message is one that marriage will necessarily kill a couples’ passionate sexual connection in comparison to their single, romance-based sexual connection.
Why ruin a perfectly good relationship with marriage?
The Myth of Mismatched Libidos
Once married, there are myriad social conventions already emplaced for a wife to rely upon as she moves from exciting singleness into mundane, but necessary, long-term commitment. Most of these she’s already been conditioned to expect she can rely on. ‘Mismatched Libidos’ is a common refrain for women (and marriage counselors) who come to a point where they can no longer palate the “duty sex” they felt responsible for in the beginnings of their marriage.
Her husband isn’t expected to provide the ‘tingles, but he’s still responsible for the failure to create them. As I said, only the most exceptional of men can effortlessly inspire the admiration necessary to maintain a woman’s Hypergamous interest. If you have a read of the screen cap Zel provided us with for this post you’ll get an idea of how those pre-made social conventions work in tandem with men’s default responsibility of satisfying a woman’s endless discontent.
The deference is always to the feminine, thus any problem (particularly sexual ones) he has with her become his personal issues and flaws. Any deviation, any dissatisfaction, with the ready-made social conventions set in place to excuse the female sexual strategy are solely his responsibility and his character flaws.
In last week’s post comments I quoted the following confessional from Love Shack:
My wife called me today and was all excited about some beachfront apartment she saw. She wants us to buy it for vacations and such.
Now here I am .. I just turned 50. My youngest is going to college this year and I guess I just realized that I’m no longer bound to her.
The last 20 years has been a long series of quickies and 3 minutes handjobs every 3-4 weeks. In between, I spent my prime sexual years mostly masturbating to get off. Now that I’m 50, my drive is still good, but it’s not what it was.
I had tried everything I could think of over those 20 years to get things on track. I was exemplary with chores around the house, I was attentive to her emotional needs as far as I could anticipate them, and even if I do say so myself – I’ve kept myself in outstanding shape (although that was more for me).
On the other hand, I look back and I can hardly remember a time that she spontaneously gave me a neck rub, or cooked something just for me as opposed to all of us, and certainly not even attempting to do something special for me sexually (yeah, I have a minor kink or two).
But when she asked me to buy a beachfront place today – my immediate reaction was annoyance. I realized then that I feel resentful. I have decided to leave her. There is absolutely nothing she can do now to change anything because the past cannot be changed.
This man’s situation represents the ending phase of a chronic lack of admiration on his wife’s part. It would be easy to point out his role is one of being the dutiful unconsidered provider in his wife’s Frame, however, consideration is never a motivator of genuine desire for a woman. Only admiration and an ambient imagination of losing the focus of it inspires genuine desire.
Girl With A Dragonfly Tattoo had a post recently outlining the expectations of women interested in “seducing” a man. On GWADT’s blog what’s implied is that this man is in fact her husband to begin with. What makes her points so difficult for married women to digest is that they should ever need to make an effort to do so. The reason this is so alien a thought to married women is because the men they wanted to seduce were the men they knew before they became ‘wives’. Wives have no use for seduction, and particularly so with the Beta men they settled for around their Epiphany Phase. Seduction, compassion, appreciation (such as can be expected of a woman) only become a necessity when women are subjected to a real preoccupation with losing a valuable man – a man they admire.
Even in Frank Sinatra’s time wives had to be told to be lovers too.
April 2nd, 2015 at 10:19 pm
And @bad painter
Yes. Basically yes to what you said above.
And @sun kuwong
I know you can be high value and blue pill. My comments are regarding high value and red pill aware men. That Is it
April 2nd, 2015 at 10:19 pm
You don’t have a marriage without sex as far as I’m concerned. If a woman refuses to have sex with her husband, they should get help to find out why and fix it or he is completely justified in getting out of the marriage.
April 2nd, 2015 at 10:28 pm
@Seraph
I am in a marriage which a lot of guys would view as not bad compared to many, but the “mismatched” libido phenomenon is certainly prevalent. My wife has nowhere near the level of interest in sex that I do. Only when she hits her ovulation phase does she express any sort of feral desire.
Was there a mismatched libido phenomenon with her prior to your marriage?
April 2nd, 2015 at 10:33 pm
Rollo Tomassi
April 2nd, 2015 at 10:11 pm
Well, gentlemen, if you’re following today’s thread here’s an early gift for doing so:
http://amanindemandradio.podbean.com/e/episode-1-rollo-tomassi-interview/
~Rollo Tomassi
Thanks!
April 2nd, 2015 at 10:45 pm
@Seraph
If not, then you have your answer to your question: don’t men have their own version of “loving opportunistically”? By that I mean mostly along the sexual lines; ie, men are programmed to be able to take advantage of sexual opportunities whenever presented.
Loving opportunistically: Matched libido becomes mismatched libido after marriage. You got married, you’ve been faithful, loving, doing all that you are supposed to do as a man.
You’ve been faithful, you’re not sleeping around.
So, no, the man ‘loving opportunistically’ doesn’t apply to what you’ve described.
Why? You didn’t start off being the great husband, then just decide to stop doing it and start sleeping around with other women just because the work and actions of being the great husband started feeling like an obligation.
You said it gets cold there. For sure the obligation of having to be the great husband hasn’t always been easy, but you never stopped.
She still knows how important frequent sexual intercourse is to a man, but she only sees it only as an obligation. Since you’re not taking ‘advantage of sexual opportunities’ (outside of her) you’ve kept up your obligations as a husband, you’re proving, at least in your marriage, there’s not an equivalent ‘loving opportunistically on the part of men’
April 2nd, 2015 at 10:59 pm
@tsotha
Notice where she was “girlfriend” and not wife? If she left as a girlfriend, she’d lose everything and get nothing. I wouldn’t care; 9s would be lined up out the door. She has no leverage, no power, and no incentive to leave.
If she’s a wife, she now has the incentive to leave: she can become independently wealthy overnight for just spreading her legs. It’s really a simple case of economic incentives toward bad behavior, and penalties on good.
April 3rd, 2015 at 1:11 am
Sorry, but if guys are going to behave all needy like boys, then women won’t want to fuck them. Women do not want to fuck males who behave like their sons, because they do not want to fuck their sons. I believe women have more of an aversion of parent-child incest than men do. If you want something from your wives, then just demand it and then take it – but do it in a way that makes her feel attractive though.
April 3rd, 2015 at 1:18 am
Rollo: Another exceptional podcast. Great to hear your thoughts.
A note to your assertion that the truth may set you free. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t painful. Note todays comment section.
Some here have to make a note that they have to go through the Kubler Ross stages of grief for a loss (medical illness, death, loss of of girl, etc.).
I recommend not dwelling on the stages and just work through them quickly.
Denial
Bargaining
Anger
Depression
Acceptance
I had an autoimmune chronic medical illness develop 25 years ago. One of the hallmarks of strengths I had at the time was that my denial stage lasted a full 8 hours and then I moved on to the acceptance stage a couple days later. ( I was a physician at the time and had no problems realizing bad medical shit happens to people randomly. The saying, this never before happened to me. I can’t believe it is happening to me now is common. )
Working through the grief stages quickly gets you more control over your situation with less perceived effort. Your goal in red pill awareness and game is less effort.
Keep frame, be red pill aware, have your significant other come to you ( instead of leaning in), read the 48 Laws of Power, try to be amoral, have passions and pursue them outside of work, develop a core group of men associates that have no toxic tendencies. Do not associate with toxic relatives or friends.
April 3rd, 2015 at 2:34 am
Rollo: I saw the length of the interview and figured I’d start it tonight and finish it tomorrow, then ended up listening right through. Now I’m a bit over tired, but my boots and saddles are clean and conditioned, so I’ve got that going for me, which is nice.
April 3rd, 2015 at 7:47 am
I’m optionless and have a spell of ONEitis??
I read all night. Did not answer her text. Told her I need a few days of space. She texted non stop. I never answered.
I don’t want to lose her, but I think I have to conquer that emotion.
April 3rd, 2015 at 8:32 am
midwestboi, her texting frantically will likely be followed up, first by wailing and seeking sympathy, and then by angrily shaming you (be a man!). When, or if, you can keep your shit together, next she’ll claim to understand that she’s “made mistakes” and “it’s hard to change” and you’re the absolute best and she’ll never ever ever repeat cycle. And “she just needs your help” and “maybe you need to change too” and, in this frantic effort to externalize responsibility for her own nature and choices, she might suggest “couples therapy.” Understand, her bottom line will be that *you* are out of line.
And do you think she’ll change if you say, “We’re stopping this train, but I may agree to date you at some remove, so I can evaluate whether these words are manifested in your actions. But I’m also going to see other people.” It should be trivial for a woman, sincerely interested in marrying you, to demonstrate over a year or two, that she means what she says. I’d say the probability of that happening here is approximately 1/50. Action is character, and character is fate. Her actions are atrocious.
So be prepared for a series of such manipulations. Your own sister shamed you, so expect her to be enlisted to get you back on the plantation. One thing women loathe is public humiliation, such as being dumped while engaged, and they respond with visceral, depthless anger, i.e., existential anger. Anything can happen, in that circumstance, including vindictive violence, false accusations, theft of your liberty.
Everything about this relationship is unpromising. She’s using you for attention, the promise of material security — all while behaving like a promiscuous teeny-bopper. You don’t want to go through life wondering when she’s going to punch out because some old or prospective boyfriend generates more thrills and chills.
Marriage is illogical enough, in the current legal regime, but marriage to someone not utterly, totally, emotionally invested in you is just self-sabotage. If you’ve not experienced what it’s like when a woman is delirious at the thought or presence of you, as it appears, all the more reason to steer clear of this bimbo. You’re not a disposable utility who is obligated to throw away his life on a woman who already gives her attentions and imagination (if not other things) to strange men. There’s no honor, much less happiness, in trying to make this chick whole, and wholesome.
My final thought is likely irrelevant, because it’s a cold reality that takes years to comprehend (at least in my experience). Even a woman who *is* delirious at your presence and touch is opportunistic at her core. Don’t give her what she wants, when she wants it, even when what she wants changes? She’ll move on the way men change employers. And she’ll say, “We just grew apart.”
Don’t be the fatted calf.
April 3rd, 2015 at 9:06 am
@midwest
You did good. Don’t fold.
It seems like she’s a lost cause by what you describe, but you can certainly leverage the situation to gain some understanding.. Prove the RP.. Practice it’s theories.. have some more sex with her, whatever you want.
April 3rd, 2015 at 9:19 am
Wow, hell of a post and hell of a comment thread. Between the responses and insights about the post, and the golden responses to midwestboi, this is gold!
@ midwestboi= When I first came onto this sight a few years ago now, I was straddling the line between swallowing the red pill and trying to keep the blue pill in. I was seeing a woman and I remember consciously thinking I would give the BP one last chance. I commented here and on other sites trying to get answers, but was way too much in denial and anger to take in what was being said to me. Rollo even wrote me back some advice and I remember just not getting it, and even being angry. A sort of displaced anger at what I was hearing,
Anyway, turns out Rollo, and all the commenters where correct. Listen closely to what they are saying, you’ve gotten some great advice here. Whether or not you leave her just yet.. and I think you should.. DO NOT GET MARRIED. Right now the price of a mistake is a little heartache and a lesson learned. Get married and the price of that lesson potentially becomes years of debt and wasted time/life.
April 3rd, 2015 at 9:19 am
MWB.
You are not optionless. Far from it.
Didn’t reading all night spark a few more options in your head? You are young.
For all she just pulled on you, don’t you think you need to silent for more than a few days? Don’t lean in to her. Remember you still have the C-Card (Commitment) in your hand and she desperately wants it. It is the only remaining card of value in your hand of cards. Don’t waste it on her. Play your hand properly.
ONEitis is a disease. You have to not have that emotion. If you have oneitis she will never have respect for you. She has the Frame and is making everything revolve around her. You need to reassert Frame and make your life decisions revolve around what is best for your own peace of mind and your career. Your career is far more important than hers.
There is no shame in having Oneitis. It is a natural feeling that all men get in their hind-brains. No one is immune to getting it. In fact, due to several factors, including the spring feeling in the air and three other factors, I have been fighting a severe one week case of Oneitis for my wife (of 25 years) this past week. Good thing I have a good fore-brain that I trust and a handful of pursuits, I have many options. It is only temporary. I’ve kept frame and the feeling is nearly past. I’m confident and I’m sticking to my script.
One of fears I overcame in my training as a physician 25 years ago was the fear of what was around the corner in the hospital. Was I going to be able to save my patient when they medically crashed? When I was the code blue resident in charge all night and one of the patients in the 1000 bed hospital tried to die at 2:00 AM, their life was in my hands to direct the code without emotion and do the best possible to have the resuscitation crew bring that patients cardiac function and lung function back to life. The stakes were high. I had to perform well. The motivating factor was a voice in the back of my head saying “Don’t F*ck Up”.
MWB, don’t F*ck up. Have the serenity to accept the things you cannot change, the courage to change the things you can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
In the next month, go out and seek some of the most masculine self-assured male acquaintances you know in real life and do some male things. Go do some athletic things. Get a mentor. Have a separate pursuit outside of work that you are passionate about and focus on doing that pursuit. Demonstrate higher value. Have a wingman (not your sister).
You have many options. Things take time. Relax. Your market value is on an ascent for the next 10 years. Make it reach the highest you possibly can.
April 3rd, 2015 at 9:20 am
Well then the trick is too get the “bait” sex and then bail.
April 3rd, 2015 at 9:28 am
@midwestboi
Did not answer her text. Told her I need a few days of space. She texted non stop. I never answered.
She knows she fucked up. Knows it.
You have established your Frame and she’s freaking out now. Do not let go of it no matter what you do. You’re going to become a better man for yourself alone and nobody, not even her, should be allowed to get in the way of that.
April 3rd, 2015 at 9:30 am
Midwestboi–
I am pro-marriage because of ego investment (and millions of dollars invested). But I locked down a high SMV girl that turned out to have excellent MMV. But that was before the time of Iphones and Facebook.
But,
Read this blog article from Fred on Everything “Matrimony, Holy or Otherwise, A Movable Concentrtion Camp” for a different perspective:
http://www.fredoneverything.net/DontMarry.shtml
April 3rd, 2015 at 9:42 am
@midwestboi
Ultimately only you can make the call on whether you “want” to lose her or not. Just never forget that you’re the prize. You’re the one to whom *SHE* must demonstrate her value to. It doesn’t sound like she’s in a mindset where she feels at all required to do that for you. If she takes action (not texting, action) to keep you, then she does perhaps have significant attraction to you. If she’s only trying to convince you to stay with her with words (temptation, shaming, etc..), then she’s just manipulating you to keep more ego validation for her in her life.
Keep in mind where she’s coming from. She got you to propose to her. In her mind, she had already “won” and was preparing for the victory lap. You hitting the “Abort” button is a bit like a goal-line instant-replay official taking away the winning touchdown after the clock has run out on the superbowl. She’s going to go ballistic and there’s little anyone can do about it.
If you want to seem adult about it (to her and everyone else), you can’t just obstinately tell her, “We’re done” with no explanation. At some point you’ll have to explain your position and why you’re blowing up the relationship. This explanation needs to be dirt simple, totally justifiable for yourself, and you need to be able to stick to your guns when everyone in your life starts scrutinizing your decision (your sister, parents, etc…). Reading here will help you convince yourself, but it may take some time and reflection.
Your family and friends will expect you to want to seem nice about it, and leave a “path” by which your SO can “get back” into line. All the people who like both you and your SO will expect that you’ll have a procedure, or lists of things you need so that everything can proceed as it was before. This sort of thing can easily turn into a trap by which your loved ones attempt to force you to convince yourself of how “good” your girl really is. Don’t let them do this. This relationship should be on YOUR TERMS, not theirs. YOU will ultimately have to live with her, NOT THEM.
If you want to actually give your girl a “path” to “redemption”, that’s up to you, but no one else should be allowed to create that contract but you. I would personally recommend against it because girls are so good at faking it until you’re not looking. This girl sounds like she’s using you as beta bucks, she doesn’t sound willing to be honest with you. I can’t see how staying with her is at all good for you, especially from what you’ve told us.
April 3rd, 2015 at 10:19 am
@Sun Wukong
This is always a question in my mind, whether women actually understand the effects of their behavior on men or not. Consider their perspective. They’ve lived a life where the attention of the people around them was extremely easy to come by. Achieving some measure of ego validation is as easy as posting your best selfie on facebook. Getting people to do their bidding was trivial. Satisfying occasional sexual needs was essentially like having a sex drive at a lifetime-prepaid brothel. These women literally operate under a frame of reference that makes them believe that life is SOOO EASY. Why wouldn’t they presume that everything they do has to be good because it’s worked for them so far?
I honestly believe that girls like MWB’s girl have no clue how they’re fucking up. They may understand at a deep deep gut level that they have it easy, but they’re so far removed from the difficulties men have of satisfying their own needs that they have no concept of how incredibly selfish many of their actions are. MWB’s girl is probably seriously confused at the moment. She likely has significant anxiety about her own view of the world because never before in her entire life has she had any of her behaviors backfire on her ego. This is literally world-shattering to her I would imagine, to the point that she feels like she’s losing her mind.
April 3rd, 2015 at 11:00 am
Will,
Are you seriously suggesting that chicks don’t “flake” on Alphas?
April 3rd, 2015 at 11:26 am
@Jeremy
Yeah, I think confusion is it. Girls I’ve known tend to be dumbstruck when some guy doesn’t line up with her FI expectations. It just doesn’t compute. Things should just work with the help of a cute smile and hair toss.
It’s projection, also. Like how BP guys will be astounded at how their diligent performing for a girl doesn’t get them relationship equity. That’s how things should work.
April 3rd, 2015 at 11:28 am
Oh, the (two) women I’ve known who have self-destructive, or relationship-destructive, habits know exactly when they’re ‘wrong.’ The challenge is disbelieving them when they say they’ll change.
I’m generally red pill now. One of my girlfriends just blew up our relationship, for the fourth time, according to the same protocol. I schedule a trip or reward her with things I know matter to her; she then capriciously behaves in a extremely disrespectful, if not contemptuous manner. I shut her down, and she panics emotionally like no one I’ve ever seen. She’s a diplomat, a linguist, and very successful at work, so her pleadings have enormous power. Until you’ve heard them one too many times. I told her two days ago that we were in a destructive, self-sabotaging pattern of her choosing, and everything was now over. Everything is cancelled. Hard stop. She continued to plead and apologize, and even acknowledged that I was right in all respects. She’s called me four times so far today.
Five years ago, still blue pill: My second wife would get on her knees and literally beg for another chance. She was enormously compelling; I thought it was my duty to show her, through love and constancy, *how* to love and thereby assist her in fixing her bad habits and making our marriage stronger. I would then enjoy a superior woman for maybe 48 hours, but no more than 72. For that brief spell I was genuinely happy. But she was the sort of piece of work who would get drunk and beat me in my sleep, kill my daughter’s cat because she didn’t like vestiges of my long marriage in her life, accuse me of random affairs. Before then going off to her day job as an investment banker. Five percent of the population are sociopathic monsters, and couple that with a legal marriage, a child, and her 170 IQ, and notably my still being blue pill — I was befuddled and in a lot of pain.
In short, I once had a lot of midwestboi’s inclinations. I had women who felt empowered to behave capriciously and destructively, then say, “I want a do over.” They know what they’re doing, they just don’t think they should bother fixing themselves in order to realize their relationship objectives. They’ve internalized the ‘social primacy’ that Rollo articulates.
(And why wouldn’t a blue pill man be inclined to give his lover or wife “another chance”? Any self-made man makes LISTS of things he must improve, then rationally sets out to do the best he can. He doesn’t say, “I’ll just do the same old shit I know I shouldn’t. And learn how to ask forgiveness and pull heartstrings if I get caught.”)
So, to repeat: I think the dynamic with most women, at least the smarter ones, is that they know exactly what they’re doing. They operate at work (which is why I mentioned the two professions, above) and in the social, legal, and financial sphere with such embedded privilege and entitlement now, that the weight of accountability has been drilled out of them. Evidently there are few red pill men on the loose in their social cohort. They are incredibly aghast and shocked when a man stands up to them.
April 3rd, 2015 at 11:33 am
@Jeremy,
I think along those same lines. Young women have one, maybe two, tactics they use to maintain relationships.
Shaming is almost always effective. Shaming works like kryptonite on women and can work on men if the guy is BP and has a network of women to echo the shaming tactic.
She fired her guns and expected you (MWB) to recoil and get back into the box she’s placed you.
You didn’t and it’s confused her. Perhaps the best thing I’ve seen you do is ignore the texts. You know her mental hamster wheel is white hot from the friction generated as it spins. Your decision to refocus without her influence and ignore her shit-tests/texts has fundamentally shaken her understanding of you.
This does not mean you’ve won any sort of permanent victory. You need much, much more internal development to permanently shift your mental frame before you consider taming a feral woman. It will take years of reading, thinking, exercising (mental and physical), and positive reinforcement from community members on this site and others, like Dalrock or alphagameplan.
She is clearly not long term relationship (LTR) material. That much is beyond debate.
April 3rd, 2015 at 11:58 am
MWB: For sure, years of reading and effort, to even feel comfortable on your feet, with a functional situational awareness, with a woman like this. It takes years just to realize when you are in the presence of a good woman capable of the sort of relationship you seek. Then more years to have the awareness and skills to keep such a relationship healthy and growing. (I’m not even convinced this latter is doable, but then the whole dread game thing is of less interest to me than others.)
The flip side, MWB: it will take many more years, or the balance of your life, to fully recover from a legal marriage to a woman of the behavior and character you describe. I’m not being hyperbolic.
April 3rd, 2015 at 12:02 pm
@Jeremy
Oh I didn’t say she gives a shit about his feelings. She probably doesn’t care if she hurt him. She knows she fucked things up for herself. She knows she tipped her hand, she just doesn’t know how much he saw. A woman in her position only cares about the man’s feelings as far as they influence her future. No further than that.
April 3rd, 2015 at 12:03 pm
@midwestboi
From my experience:
When a woman lies about her sexual past and or her exes and her other affairs…. she is a deceitful, dangerous and should be dumped immediately. These are manipulation techniques. She wants to have her fun her way her shit. You are less than garbage to her. A woman that respects you doesn’t talk to exes. She does not lie. She does not play bullshit. She is your woman.
Nothing will change with such a fickle egoistic creature. It is all about her. Does she care about you MWB? Think about it. What woman would be sneaking on the internet while making possible wedding arrangements ( I so assumed.) I tell you what kind. A lying, cheating, dishonest one. She is one step away from looking for new dick ( if she has not done so already.) She is getting her emotional drip, next it will be the new penis.
Do NOT trust her. She does not deserve a man to provide and help her ( as you seem to be willing). Let her learn the hard way. You can do so much better. You have many years ahead. You will thank us later.
April 3rd, 2015 at 12:05 pm
@BuenaVista
I read somewhere, or heard somewhere recently that a study had found the number of sociopaths among us is actually quite high. I don’t know if the number I heard was 5% or higher, but I recall being somewhat dumbstruck at how prevalent they actually are. It means that literally everyone on earth is likely interacting with a sociopath once a day whether they know it or not. Now, obviously there are multiple degrees and dimensions of such conditions. This doesn’t mean that you’re meeting people who intend to murder every day. Most sociopaths do not have the conditional experiences in their childhood that would lead them to buck societal norms and act out on their inability to empathize with fellow humans. All it means is that if society ever broke-down bigtime, then having good friends around you might be the only thing that saves you, man or woman.
April 3rd, 2015 at 12:09 pm
“Life is more than about sex”
“Relationships are more than sex”
etc.
These phrases from women are toxic.
My response:
“Yes, true. And a car is more than its gas tank. But try to drive a car successfully for any length of time without a gas tank.”
Sexless wives deserve their fate when they are cheated on or divorced. They’ll never accept culpability, but they have all the blame nevertheless. That their frigid wives find soul crushing confusion and pain in the end should be cathartic to any man about to make the jump to a mistress or to divorce.
@MWB
Just seconding what everybody else here has already said. Learn from those who have experience with this, there is much wisdom to be gleaned from this thread for you.
April 3rd, 2015 at 12:12 pm
@Sun Wukong
You’re right, I was reading too much into that. What an embarrassing display of FI thinking coming from me. Again I fail to grasp the depths of the solipsism.
April 3rd, 2015 at 12:20 pm
“(And why wouldn’t a blue pill man be inclined to give his lover or wife “another chance”? Any self-made man makes LISTS of things he must improve, then rationally sets out to do the best he can. He doesn’t say, “I’ll just do the same old shit I know I shouldn’t. And learn how to ask forgiveness and pull heartstrings if I get caught.”)”- buena vista
This is huge. No woman I have ever met thinks she did anything to really nuke a relationship as far as who she is and what she thinks she is entitled to. Women will always default to it somehow being the mans fault, in one way or another. He either wasn’t man enough, or she chose the wrong guy, or she just needs to date a different type, or he just couldn’t handle her, or whatever the hell else it takes to shift the blame from the fact she that is a worthless partner to a man.
And that is at the heart of it.. she always assumes she is the prize because everyone has told her so her entire life. It is the underlying assumption that is never, ever questioned. I have seen ghetto hoes and cheating upper middle class moms carry on about what they deserve or how they just can’t find all the things they deserve. No matter how worthless, shitty and cheap the make themselves,
April 3rd, 2015 at 12:23 pm
@ Forge the Sky
I’m one over, to the west, across the lake. I had some hobby interaction with a “boi” from MI in the past, which is why I had asked.
@anon & Jeremy
I see what you guys are driving at, and, without the inside dope, I fully recognize the validity of your points regarding my own involvement in the situation.
As I was building something in my shop yesterday, I had a while to consider the “litmus test” and validation angles, and reflect on having potentially been “the beta-in-waiting” in the past, and present.
I can see many of the dynamics working in my past, and, I can see the present situation playing out. You should understand, that, I’ve been on a warpath for the last, say, 8 years or so. Along the way, I’ve made crazy sacrifices and put in long, abusive hours. A great many obstacles have presented themselves, and I’ve been ground down physically and mentally.
Moreover, I’ve been infected with Lyme Disease three (or four? I forget, now) times over. And, although the “initial infections” have been treated, the lasting effects plague the fuck out of me to such an extent that I have been considering disability. Seriously, I have crippling arthritis, random “shooting” pains, chronic fatigue, problems with focus, and a whole host of lingering, and currently non-curable, issues. Biggest problem with the disease for me is that the effects could last YEARS after the initial infection. Now, given that I’m homesteading, imagine the repercussions in terms of forward progress towards goals: physical labor is painful, not simply tiresome or strenuous.
So, Lyme’s has been quite a mind-job regarding my virility. And, my un-licensed wife has been along for this hell ride for the last 5 years (the worst years). She’s been with me through some unsavory shit, so, no doubt her faith in me has been tested. “Is this going to pan out?” She met me before Lyme’s, fortunately. However, given the bumps in our path, she’s been ground-down, too. So, while I’m depressed and dealing with compounded stresses, she experiences the same things by proxy. When my health started coming off the rails, “my second wind” ran out, and I’ve been digging deep for motivation to keep-on-truckin’ despite living with pain. Trust when I tell you that the amount of aspirin I’d need to take would simply cause ulcers, and create only more pain, so I’m better off without it and letting my brain tune-out the stimulus instead. …it generally works, until I drop a tool because of reflexes.
Her gaining weight was part of why I came back to the manosphere after having been away. Although I recognize contributing factors with regards to game dynamics, I’ve been needing perspective and motivation to battle out of depression, and I’ve been getting the “medicine” I’ve been looking for to promote introspection. Recently, I’ve taken the reigns up again, and I’ve started leading us out of the darkness. We’re taking steps to correct my health, and, by proxy, hers. I haven’t been a good leader lately, and understandably so, all things considered.
I’ve been scratching and clawing towards my goals, dragging a ball-and-chain, shackled to ridiculous obligations, and frustrated/angry for a long time. To have my frau hanging with the you go gurl/YOLO crowd is unsettling at this point. Not to say that I’m “mate guarding” in the beta sense, but, I value the woman, and need to make corrections in order for her to be around in the future (not let her continue being fat). “Asset guarding” is more appropriate, as she cooks, cleans, sews, gardens, paints, enjoys fishing and other outdoorsy stuff since I’ve taught her, loves my cock in her ass, etc.
Overall, I’d offer that I’ve done a better-than-could-be-expected job of being the pirate-captain of our warship. She shares my goals, and understands my current restraints, so she is staying committed to our shared goals, and by definition, me. Our problem is that, despite being in an awesome situation, and despite all that we’ve accomplished so far, we’ve been dealing with so many negative outside influences for so long that it’s tough to maintain a positive perspective. The things we’ve had to look forward to, although they should be “positive”, have been terminations of negative situations. “That’s the end of that bullshit.” should be a good thing, but we’re only reminded of the “bullshit” when looking at the date on the calendar.
There’s a light at the end of our tunnel, our health is getting back in focus, and it’s spring. I’ll be casting off some of these “shackles” that I’ve been obligated to, so we’re nearly “over-the-hump” with regards to the shitstorm we’ve been enduring. In other words, everything I’ve been enduring is about to spit me out at the finish line that I’ve lost sight of since I conceptualized this “adventure” (MGTOW). It’s time for victory whether I’m ready for it or not. My current focus is to keep her seeing how “green our grass is” so she doesn’t need to consider greener pastures (re-frame to positive). I want her to focus on the bigger picture beyond our present (depressing) situation. I’ve always tempered my “forward progress” with “quality of life in the meantime” because “happiness” should be part of anyone’s goals for the future, but also a goal for the present. Our saving grace is our healthy communication and shared goals. We’d have been “done” a long, long time ago if we didn’t trust and value each other as quality, autonomous, people first (which would be highly unlikely had she been a native-born american… see the value?).
Then again, I made her say “I didn’t know I could cum like that!” when she was 26 and frustrated by the endless string of AFC douchebags she had been dating. Good timing, likely nothing more.
Hopefully I’ve given you enough insight to understand that her weight gain is very much my “fault”, but not in the “disrespected” sense, but as a result of depressing life circumstances we’ve shared (combined, of course, with some gnarly self-medicating habits which have been addressed). She also has been grieving the back-to-back loss of loved ones, so I cut her some slack; chicks are only humans, too, and grief is, well, grief. Being cooped-up over the winter doesn’t help, either. She is magically in control of her emotions compared to other women I’ve experienced, though: very stable. Do I recognize how she might perceive me and be affected? I’m all too aware, and it’s tough to not get sucked into negative thinking.
I noticed a change in her skin tone this morning… almost gave me wood. Something’s going right.
It’s Friday, and things are going to go “righter” when I surprise her with a “vitamin D” injection when she gets home. You know, reward her efforts with a shot of man-magic. She deserves a dose to kick off her weekend proper. :)
Hmm… excuse me gents, I have to go build some shit and meditate on how I’m going to go about the administration of her medicine.
April 3rd, 2015 at 12:33 pm
@Vulpine
The YOLO crowd are the absolute last people you want to be associating with if you’re homesteading. The worldviews are entirely incompatible, like being a Rabbi in Mecca. Keep your woman away from those people.
April 3rd, 2015 at 12:34 pm
Agreed, Jeremy. We interact daily, in some professions, with some dangerous people. They do seem to be overrepresented in certain professions, though, which is an argument for not being in lower Manhattan when the SHTF.
The figure 4-5% is used by professionals. (A buddy runs a hospital for the criminally insane.) To my knowledge it’s not disputed much.
April 3rd, 2015 at 12:40 pm
Jeremy:
No doubt, night-and-day. She wants to remain rural, despite her rural friends lusting over the urban lifestyle. We’ve been there, done that, hate it. She can resist some of the toxic crap, but the “travel” stuff? “Boyfriend destroyer” comes to mind, and when it’s dropped by her GF’s? Ultra-harsh.
April 3rd, 2015 at 12:43 pm
Interesting. I’ve just started reading some of these posts. It feels a little over-complicated…this story is sadly an old story to me. And I wish that this guy could have seen this woman’s true personality sooner or, taking responsibilty for the actions of others as reactions to our own behaviour, acknowledge the imbalance in the relationship much earlier on and addressed it such that this resentment wouldn’t build.
I think the over complication comes in when there’s an analysis of men versus women. I’ve watched many a woman devote her life to loving a man and doing everything she can to show him her worthiness only to find evidence of dozens of lovers.
Why are we not able to know ourselves? To say to ourselves, “I need respect and responsibility for myself” and when we give up either of these, we lose the respect of others and encourage resentment? Why do people continue to do things for those who don’t appreciate it? And how do we smack down the takers, those who are disgustingly content to accept these efforts as if they deserve them?
Thanks for the article, it really gets the mind moving!
April 3rd, 2015 at 12:56 pm
lol@”the Burninator”
Dammit… *grabs iPod* …now I gotta hear it.
“…burninating all the peoples,
and the thatch-roofed cottages!
THATCH-ROOFed COTTAGES!!!
(Duh-duhn-duhn-duh-DAH,
Duh-duhn-duhn-duh-DAH,
Duh-duhn-duhn-DUN-DAH-DAHNT)!”
“First, you make an “S”. Then, another “S”… ”
lol@”the Burninator”
Nice handle, man, nice.
April 3rd, 2015 at 1:11 pm
@Vulpine
Seriously: On the Lyme infections, here is a special ms. for you: have the doc run blood tests to see if any of the strains you got are different. I.E., Rocky Mountain version vs. Applalachian or Pacific. You may need a different treatment protocol (i.e., antibiotic cocktail) for that strain. I know someone this happened to, suffered for years until they tested for a strain from a different region of the USA, found it, and treated it. Unless you’ve already done this.
April 3rd, 2015 at 1:15 pm
Should I forgive the lying? She changes her passwords weekly now (FB and Yahoo Messenger) and I’m sure she does what she likes when alone. I have no trust as is. If I ask her, she manipulates the conversation to make me feel like I’m an abuser and a busy body. She keeps claiming it is “just friends” that contact her. But, I dont think it is right. A caring nurturing woman would have stopped this without me saying anything. I guess I should walk away. You guys are right.
I told my sister. She keeps claiming I’m jealous and possessive. Funny thing is, I never cared until I saw the evidence right in my face. I could care less to look at her Macbook. I respect her privacy. I just have a rotten
feeling about this.
Tell her that she is wrong that you are possessive and to prove it , you are dumping her.
She is a liar and a manipulator, which will NEVER EVER change.
Dump her.
April 3rd, 2015 at 1:34 pm
@Jeremy
Empathy, which a Blue Pill reality teaches us to have, does have value in the Red Pill view of the world. So long as you stop at the point of understanding others (i.e. sense what they’re feeling but don’t try to identify with it), you can use that knowledge to form a picture of what their next objective(s) might be.
Once you know somebody’s objectives, potential behaviors become evident, and your own strategy based on your objectives vs. their objectives and potential actions becomes clearer. I am, of course, still new to this line of thinking and still refining it so I can’t put it in to practice perfectly all the time. However, so far my testing of it has proven it to be true every time I apply it properly.
Always be mindful of a person’s objectives. This is where watching actions and sensing through empathy tells you more than listening to words.
April 3rd, 2015 at 1:44 pm
I suppose also that part of what I’m saying is that all human beings are naturally selfish, even the ones that think they aren’t. We focus on female behavior here, but in the case of selfishness both sexes are equally so. Even the man sacrificing his life to save others is doing so out of his own selfish desires, whether those be to be a hero, to avoid being seen as a coward, or just because he can’t imagine living without the people he’s dying for so he’d rather they live without him.
Always assume selfish motivations in all human interaction, but don’t clue others in to that view. You don’t want to lose the advantage if you have it. If the other person is aware of the view explicitly or instinctively, that will become clear in time and you’ll have to compensate for it. Most people aren’t aware of it though.
April 3rd, 2015 at 1:46 pm
Thanks, Fred.
A battery of tests is definitely in the future.
It turns out that there are secondary, “same time” infections that could be possible that have similar, lasting effects. Apparently there is also Babesiosis and Human Granulocytic Anaplasmosis (HGA) that are conveyed by the same vector (ticks).
Moreover, many of the issues I’m having are also the symptoms of being infected by hookworm. Since I was running around barefoot in Africa, at night, in dew-covered grass, hookworm is a very real possibility. The bottom of my foot was super-itchy on the plane ride home, so…
Indeed, a blood test and stool test is on the horizon for me. Antibiotics hasn’t “cured” anything, that much is certain.
April 3rd, 2015 at 2:07 pm
@Vulpine
Heh, thanks man. My son showed me it on YouTube years ago, funny shit.
The whole “sexless wives” thing is increasing in volume on the internet every single year, and it by no means was a hard to find topic on the webs even ten years ago. I know the official “whys” of why men put up with it, but on a deep psychological level I can’t help but wonder why in the hell they don’t get up and leave. I get if you have kids and will get frivorce raped, but even then, once they hit 18 you should be out the door with a you shaped cloud of dust left behind like the Roadrunner after he takes off down the road.
April 3rd, 2015 at 2:10 pm
@Wukong
Very interesting. You open my eyes to look at myself in terms of selfishness.
April 3rd, 2015 at 2:17 pm
women are made for two reasons
1, for sex.
2,for making babies. and the rest of the bull (love, caring )is irrelevant .
women know that , and that is all what it is.
a man should have ZERO doubt about it.
it is like having a horse who would not let you ride him , do you try to argue with the horse ? no , you get another horse.
when you beg your woman for sex , know damn well it is over .
the moment sex become a commodity , you are finished .
April 3rd, 2015 at 2:47 pm
Rollo – happy belated birthday. I listened to the show while traveling last night, and it was great! I particularly enjoyed two things: (1) what you said about low value behavior, and (2) advice for raising children.
Wrt low value behavior, one of the worst things a person can do is consistently demonstrate low value behavior (and not realize how bad it makes them look). It speaks volumes upon volumes about the person’s character, and seems to define people who don’t have their shit together. As for monitoring text messages, emails, etc, my first real bf, who, by objective societal standards is a 9 in every way and was also hot, smart, incredibly successful, high wealth, etc., did something like that to my computer. He also followed me around and had me followed. I had nothing to hide and was never unfaithful, but after realizing what happened, it was over. His 9 status dropped to 0. Apparently he was cheated on by his previous gf and I guess that was his way of dealing with future women. Insecure, desperate, and VERY SAD because when you love/care about people and you see them not being able to deal with failed relationships in an emotionally healthy way, it kind of breaks your heart.
I don’t think people should pursue serious relationships w/o resolving issues from prior relationships–to the extent a person reasonably can.
I’ve also seen other people resort to vindictive and spiteful behavior in response to relationships gone bad. Low value. One guy I know seems to regularly find himself in relationships with psychos. Because of my friendship w him, I’ve been on the receiving end of some psychotic behavior bc apparently these women are insecure and feel threatened by me–someone who doesn’t care whether they exist. At a certain point it becomes entertainment, but I did share Preventive Medicine with him, even though it might not have been welcomed. I think one day when he gets his shit together he’s going to regret his behavior, and for all of the anger and vindictive behavior I’ve encountered, I actually feel pretty good sharing the book with him because in the end I think he’ll understand. We’ve all been there in some regard, and I guess tis better to learn late than never.
Raising children, particularly young boys. Christian’s response was hilarious. I’ve read how guys like Novaseeker and Deti broke that stuff down before and 100% agree that being role models and engaging with children (playing sports, etc.) is a good approach. I don’t have children, but parents who are able to understand the impact of instilling healthy behaviors from an early age seem to be way way way ahead of the pack.
Anyway, I’ll end my mini rant there, but also just wanted to add that I really enjoyed reading Preventive Medicine. Great content and cleverly written/organized.
Oh, one more thing. There was an earlier comment (by Sun, Deti, et al) about women not giving consideration to men or his feelings. I hoped to think of examples proving otherwise, but if I were to estimate, for every 100 women I know, maybe 1 will genuinely give a hoot about a man/his feelings.
April 3rd, 2015 at 3:00 pm
@Emily
Thanks for getting on here to tell us what an angel you were and how that hot (9!!!) boyfriend chased your hot behind all over town. You wonderful.angelic creature. Desired by all men….
Guys I think the femiNazis are coming to the table. I’m getting popcorn.
April 3rd, 2015 at 3:14 pm
Hey @sunwukong and @Seraph both your post where gold to my mind today and I really appreciate you both for saying what you said.
April 3rd, 2015 at 3:35 pm
@bigboi
April 3rd, 2015 at 4:08 pm
@Buena Vista:
“Oh, the (two) women I’ve known who have self-destructive, or relationship-destructive, habits know exactly when they’re ‘wrong.’ The challenge is disbelieving them when they say they’ll change….”
(replying to the whole comment, but no sense copying the whole thing) Good perspectives, thanks for that. I suppose their confusion arises not so much because they don’t know they’re doing something wrong but more because they don’t recognize that doing wrong things may have consequences.
@Vulpine:
Sounds like a rough road, man. I’ve had stress-based depression for like 6 months before and that was trial enough. Godspeed.
April 3rd, 2015 at 4:16 pm
@Emily L
How do you square your last paragraph with your second paragraph? How do you feel about women not giving consideration to men or his feelings? Good? Bad? Indifferent?
It’s pretty apparent, not only from your mental poll, but from Rollo’s writing that this is true of feminine nature.
I assume you were young and at your peak when you nexted your #9 boyfriend. Going from 9 to zero because of one personality defect (obviously, though, he must have had other flaws).
Would you instantly next him for being jealous and not getting over his fears from the last cheater if you were in your Epiphany Phase? When the clock is ticking?
April 3rd, 2015 at 4:29 pm
@Emily L
I hoped to think of examples proving otherwise, but if I were to estimate, for every 100 women I know, maybe 1 will genuinely give a hoot about a man/his feelings.
and sjfrellc calls bullshit where it should be called:
How do you square your last paragraph with your second paragraph?
I suspect your estimate includes one too many, if you’re saying that’s you.
Every woman that thinks she’s different is wrong. Very possibly well-intentioned, but still wrong.
April 3rd, 2015 at 4:31 pm
Reblogged this on Livefearless and commented:
Why did “The Rational Male – Preventive Medicine” by Rollo Tomassi make the Amazon.com top 10 along with Tony Robbins and Timothy Ferriss? Read this truthful post, and you’ll understand. No one has written truths that show the realities men face, until now.
April 3rd, 2015 at 4:40 pm
@Emily, sjfrellic, Sun
Is it possible that, as Sun postulates, all individuals are intrinsically selfish and therefore unsympathetic to the feelings of others whether man or woman?
April 3rd, 2015 at 4:42 pm
@midwestboi
You’re receiving pure gold, and it’s heartening that you are internalizing the information and taking positive action on your own behalf. I have rarely seen a more focused and helpful thread here at TRM.
At any point during the disconnecting/dumping process (that you are likely going to see all the way through) if you should falter or weaken—just listen to this sound clip for an extra boost of inspirational adrenaline:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/03/the-rush/
April 3rd, 2015 at 4:46 pm
Emily demonstrates why a high value man has dread built in and is either actively spinning plates or taking applications. You see a “high value” man is devoid of jealousy, and demonstrates faith in his woman, and tosses her like yesterday’s fish at the first hint of misbehavior, or other other inadequacy.
The important part is actively being jealous destroys value, and indicates the man’s dysfunctional value system in that he mate guards directly (spying) rather obliquely (dread). To the woman this looks like trust and faith in her good nature. It is isn’t, rather it’s a positive indifference where the man’s value is in himself and only reflected back to the woman.
In other words it’s the difference between:
” I love you, and therefore live for you”
and
” I love me, feel free to hang.”
April 3rd, 2015 at 4:48 pm
When you have that much money you have a target on your back. You get a prenup.
And since prenups in most states aren’t worth the paper they’re written on, the only conclusion to be drawn is that any man of such wealth who seeks marriage is just BEGGING for trouble (or is just plain stupid).
April 3rd, 2015 at 4:48 pm
@SweetWater
It’s not necessarily that they’re unsympathetic. It’s that sympathy will only come if/when the sympathizer can relate to your situation, appealing to their selfish nature for some reason. I.e. Rollo puts all this information up for free on the internet and cheap as he can in a book because he can relate to guys having problems with the issues he addresses, and it makes him feel good to do so. His motivations are entirely selfish, yet sympathetic.
Selfishness doesn’t rule out sympathy, it just motivates it in some cases.
April 3rd, 2015 at 5:05 pm
Very full thread here. Once we get off the theory and on to the practical (in this case MWB) the whole RP wisdom comes into focus. Many thanks to Rollo and to all commenters here today. Sun, double thumbs up man!
As an elder I grew up in a RP world. For awhile that changed as I was exposed to the ideals of ‘equality’ and such. My Dad said late in his life “They really fucked up when they gave them the vote!” I was appalled as I was BP at the time. Funny how much wiser he looks to me now. Really a man in many ways.
My 2 cents to MWB: listen to these guys. You’ll be amazed at how easy it will be to get the pussy (and connection, should that matter) you want. The world is awash in people who want to live, have sex, be connected, have fun and more.
Having someone in the parking space in front of your house prevents someone else from pulling in. I know first hand that I have thought that if I dumped my girl I’d be a lonely shit for a long time. Naw…doesn’t work that way. Once she was out the door there was a line of new prospects. I can remember one night right after I dumped a troubling woman that two new ones came to me in quick succession. The first was out the door by 10 and the other showed up a half hour later. Man did I sleep well that night (well really late, that is).
Anyway, best luck to you (remember: luck favors the prepared) and keep on coming back. Rollo and the rest of these guys are well worth the time it can take to wade through all this reading.
funoldguy
April 3rd, 2015 at 5:09 pm
The issue was empathy. Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. Empathy might well generate antipathy. As well might being the subject of a demeaning sympathy.
April 3rd, 2015 at 5:23 pm
Emily’s first real boyfriend didn’t realize or was unsuccessful in #3 of 48 Laws of Power:
Law 3: Conceal your Intentions
Keep people off-balance and in the dark by never revealing the purpose behind your actions. If they have no clue what you are up to, they cannot prepare a defense. Guide them far enough down the wrong path, envelope them in enough smoke, and by the time they realize your intentions, it will be too late.
So Emily employed Law #36
Law 36: Disdain Things you cannot have: Ignoring them is the best Revenge
By acknowledging a petty problem you give it existence and credibility. The more attention you pay an enemy, the stronger you make him; and a small mistake is often made worse and more visible when you try to fix it. It is sometimes best to leave things alone. If there is something you want but cannot have, show contempt for it. The less interest you reveal, the more superior you seem.
It is ironic that Christian McQueen mentions that he used a key-stroke logger to find a cheating girlfriend and next her earlier in his “career”, but after becoming more skilled, now, he either doesn’t care or doesn’t have the time because of his pursuits. And he and Rollo admit to it’s DLV. Rollo states a man should be perceptive to other minor cues rather than overtly snoop.
Ironic because she WAS cheating. What about that?
April 3rd, 2015 at 5:33 pm
“This girl sounds like she’s using you as beta bucks, she doesn’t sound willing to be honest with you. I can’t see how staying with her is at all good for you, especially from what you’ve told us.”
Is the takeaway from this mess for me.
Being a nasty old Hector, I also suspect she might be at base .. a … a .. Rayciss.Gasp!
MWB, you’re the best provider she could wangle and persuade to remain on the subs’ bench, as the Elite WASPy guys I presume she tips her lance at are definitely not interested in getting shackled to a maniac once the bang is spent. And she doesn’t want her natural SMV counterpoise, BillyBob from the panel-beating shop.
Don’t get upset. Get even. You’re better than that. Stay ice-cool. “Is i magen”, as they say over in ManginaLand (actually they ain’t, but it would be tl;dr).
April 3rd, 2015 at 6:02 pm
@midwestboi
Play it cool, let her back and go super beta, after a while when she’s comfortable again KEYLOGGER her equipment and then you’ll have your answer in black and white.
April 3rd, 2015 at 6:03 pm
When I pointed that out last time, the rat-faced (HB2 — ugly as sin) woman confangled some story about her mother being a professional
I never cease to be amazed at how dense women can be in never realizing that the LAST thing any man finds attractive about a woman is her “profession,” unless she’s a fashion model or an A-list porn star. For example, there is NO greater and faster boner-killer than an attractive looking woman who brags about the fact that she’s a lawyer (unless you’re a lawyer yourself; otherwise only an imbecile tries to take things any farther).
She went off at one point about “I’m thinking of importing [a man]”, to which I had to laugh
Given that Amerikan women are even less attractive to foreign men than to their male compatriots (i.e., most foreign men consider untreated tertiary syphilis to be a more attractive option), the only potential “buyers” would be men from countries afflicted with war or economic collapse/dire poverty. Even then these hapless creatures would only be in it for the green card, probably having to hypnotize or drug themselves into being able to endure the obligatory horizontal performance with their bitchy landwhale benefactrices. For most, genocide and starvation are the more merciful alternatives. “Thirty-year-old slut” had probably better start investing in a vibrator collection – or hope that male human sexbots become a viable technology before she reaches age 70.
@midwestboi:
Should I forgive the lying? She changes her passwords weekly now (FB and Yahoo Messenger) and I’m sure she does what she likes when alone.
If you’re at all tech-savvy you can probably brute-force guess her password after no more than half a dozen tries. I have yet to encounter any woman (not even one in the IT Security profession) who has the first clue about data security or any grasp of password complexity. Odds are almost certain that her “password” is both weak and of the type that both best practices and common sense dictate are unacceptable: a pet’s name, part of her own name, her or a family member’s birthday, or anything else easily associated with her identity. Full disclosure: I am NOT advocating that you violate her privacy, any laws, or any terms of service of any websites, services, or applications that either of you use. I’m merely pointing out that the veil over her activities isn’t as impenetrable as she wants you to think it is.
But anyway, back to your original issue. Yes, she is doing whatever she wants to do; no, she doesn’t give a damn about whether or not it upsets you or breaks your trust in her; yes, she WILL keep doing it whether you want her to or not, and no, she does NOT respect you. Four words: DUMP THE BITCH – NOW.
I told my sister. She keeps claiming I’m jealous and possessive.
As somebody else has no doubt pointed out to you by now, you’re new to this whole red pill/manosphere thing, so I’m going to repeat something else that I’m sure someone else has by now already told you (I haven’t looked at all the comments yet): NEVER, EVER take intersexual relationship advice from a woman, even if she’s one of your own flesh-and-blood relatives. First of all, women as a sex DO NOT understand masculinity or male needs. Second, your sister is playing for Team Woman first and foremost. She has her own needs to consider (even if she’s not necessarily conscious of them and can’t voice them) and these do not include any consideration whatsoever of any man’s perspective, even if the man is her own brother. While of course you love your sister as a sibling, stay as far away from her as possible when it comes to relationships with women. She’ll only confuse you and poison the waters.
April 3rd, 2015 at 6:17 pm
Emily’s post is interesting because it’s another example of a woman’s natural game. Women’s in-born habit seems to immediately demonstrate as high SMV as possible upon entering a space they believe is filled with high value males. Men have to learn to do this when dealing with women. Women seem to know this from birth.
She had no reason to discuss the attractiveness of her BF, or herself. She did though. Seems like literally every single woman who comments here does this at some point. This is hilarious when you consider it is women who most often express frustration at being gamed by men when they don’t want to be. Yet you see here just by watching the comments from the girls that female game tactics are as pervasive as oxygen in the troposphere. Men literally have to forcefully shut women out of an environment to prevent themselves from being gamed by them, and still the FI attacks male spaces.
Imagine if the script were reversed. Imagine if men would never leave women alone. Imagine if men gamed every woman they saw, every time they had an opportunity, at work, at the grocery store, at the gas station, on the beach, outside the restroom, etc…
It is incredible and hilarious when you stop and observe how strong the matrix really is.
April 3rd, 2015 at 6:27 pm
Speaking of the matrix check this out
http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/celebrity/jeremy-renner-estranged-wife-settle-custody-dispute/ar-AAaku2Y?ocid=ansentap11
April 3rd, 2015 at 6:42 pm
Jeremy – “Imagine if men would never leave women alone.”
But. BUT. But STREET HARASSMENT!!?!!
I guess that’s all just another projection.
April 3rd, 2015 at 8:16 pm
To Emily .
Here is the more honest version.
Wrt low value behavior, one of the worst things a person can do is consistently demonstrate low value behavior (and not realize how bad it makes them look).
For example :
He put me on a pedestal, he believes all the crazy stuff I say, he really thought I was special, (which I never really believed I was).he never challenge my bullshit, he moves like a snake, I hated it when he trys to sound like a tough guy and I know he is a pussy.
” It speaks volumes upon volumes about the person’s character, and seems to define people who don’t have their shit together.”
I can spot a pussy when I see one. Due to my pussy/beta detector censor.
” As for monitoring text messages, emails, etc, my first real bf, ((My first “real” bf! All my exes were alpha fucks.))
who, by objective societal standards is a 9 in every way and was also hot, smart, incredibly successful, high wealth, etc., ((thinking,,hey! Why not? He’s all that and my beta censor was telling me : he isn’t gonna give you the tingle. But I thought hey! He is my first insecure beta, and I will see if I can put up with him after all I promised myself not to go back to my past alpha fucks.))did something like that to my computer. He also followed me around and had me followed. I had nothing to hide and was never unfaithful, ((I love it. And I used that against him to make him my slave and get what I want and especially lifting my ego))but after realizing what happened, ((that’s what I say here, but the truth is I knew it all along))it was over. His 9 status dropped to 0. “((he was 0 from the moment I meet him to appoint him as my first real boi friend.))
Apparently he was cheated on by his previous gf and I guess that was his way of dealing with future women. ((and I made it worse for him))Insecure, desperate, ((see, ,my censor was right from the day I met him))and VERY SAD because when you love/care about people and you see them not being able to deal with failed relationships in an emotionally healthy way, it kind of breaks your heart.((it doesn’t break mine,i don’t give a shit. I just told you he was my first real boi friend))
I don’t think people should pursue serious relationships w/o resolving issues from prior relationships–to the extent a person reasonably can.((I don’t think women should settle for a beta right away, they should solve the alpha fuck thing first and then appoint a first real boi friend))
I’ve also seen other people resort to vindictive and spiteful behavior in response to relationships gone bad.((seen other betas go nuts after sluts dumped them)) Low value. One guy I know ((an orbiter))seems to regularly find himself in relationships with psychos. Because of my friendship w him, ((I feel good making the other bitches feel jealous))I’ve been on the receiving end of some psychotic behavior bc apparently these women are insecure and feel threatened by me((I think I am a goddess and the most beautiful woman in the world))–someone who doesn’t care whether they exist. At a certain point it becomes entertainment,((see, I tod you so, princess like me deserve to be entertained) ) but I did share Preventive Medicine with him, even though it might not have been welcomed. ((coming from me! ))I think one day when he gets his shit together he’s going to regret his behavior,((I don’t know when I will get my shit together) ) and for all of the anger and vindictive behavior I’ve encountered((including mine)), I actually feel pretty good sharing the book with him because in the end I think he’ll understand. We’ve all been there in some regard, and I guess tis better to learn late than never.((I don’t know what the fuck I am talking about) )
Raising children, particularly young boys. Christian’s response was hilarious. I’ve read how guys like Novaseeker and Deti broke that stuff down before and 100% agree that being role models and engaging with children (playing sports, etc.) is a good approach. I don’t have children, but parents who are able to understand the impact of instilling healthy behaviors from an early age seem to be way way way ahead of the pack.((well, I am mature and smart))
Anyway, I’ll end my mini rant there, ((I am a Goddess))but also just wanted to add that I really enjoyed reading Preventive Medicine. Great content and cleverly written/organized.((like the way I write))
Oh, one more thing. There was an earlier comment (by Sun, Deti, et al) about women not giving consideration to men or his feelings. I hoped to think of examples proving otherwise, but if I were to estimate, for every 100 women I know, maybe 1 will genuinely give a hoot about a man/his feelings.((and that 1 is definitely not me)).
April 3rd, 2015 at 9:06 pm
@sjfrellc
April 3rd, 2015 at 5:23 pm
I didn’t state that correctly. Emily transgressed (she did not employed)Law #36 after her boyfriend transgressed Law #3
And Mr. Midwestboi, just remember when you want to get laid a few more times employ Law #13 with your ex-fiance.
” Law 13
When Asking for Help, Appeal to People’s Self-Interest,Never to their Mercy or Gratitude
If you need to turn to an ally for help, do not bother to remind her of your past assistance and good deeds. She will find a way to ignore you.
Instead, uncover something in your request, or in your alliance with her, that will benefit him, and emphasize it out of all proportion. She will respond enthusiastically when he sees something to be gained for himself.”
Keep in mind that make-up sex with someone you are intimate with already is amoral (not immoral) before you dump her. It will make her a better person. Who knows it might boost your ego. But don’t tell your sister.
April 3rd, 2015 at 9:10 pm
sorry for the errors in Law 13, not turning the hims into hers. And the (she did not employ). I hate not having an edit function like on Vbulletin.
April 3rd, 2015 at 9:43 pm
@ MrT
Quite the breakdown you’ve made.
I’m now interested in getting some high value input into why I am still single. Seems this is a good forum to ask.
The man I was certain that I would marry broke things off to be “just friends” when I went away for college. I figured that it was just time that he needed to himself and so I waited and indeed, he came to visit and wanted back together. We were each other’s firsts, so I said that I would like that very much, but I would need to know if he he was involved with anyone else in the time we were apart. I now know this was a mistake to ask, but I thought that we had always been open with each other and that he would surely say no. Instead he confessed to sleeping around DURING the relationship. And that it had come from him trying to be friends with girls to feel comfortable with my friendship with a guy that I had known since I was 10 years old and was like a brother to me (I am now godmother to his beautiful baby girl, for example).
Is there somewhere to start to look for where I went wrong? Women just tell me that to forget about it, and even the guy himself says that he was the one who fucked up, but you guys must have more useful ideas.
April 3rd, 2015 at 10:02 pm
@Pam
“….and even the guy himself says that he was the one who fucked up…”
When men speak they do so so literally, not covertly like your girlfriends.
Take him at his word. He was not the one for you in a long term relationship. Women control access to their eggs. Unfortunately, men have access to commitment and he was not willing to give you his.
Did you not have subtle cues to his lack of commitment during your relationship?
Do you think he would marry you at his very young age?
Was he a guy who most any girl would want to get with?
April 3rd, 2015 at 10:23 pm
@badpainter, what you said above is what I’ve been trying to get at basically.
@ANCHORMAN,
No I never said girls don’t “flake” on alphas? What?
Girls flake alllll the time for stupid reasons. Hell. So do I.
Girls will flake on a guy but if she does then she does, oh well. No need to overanalyze it. You realize that with the right girl, the girl who sees you as high value, YOU won’t be overanalyzing like this.
April 3rd, 2015 at 10:25 pm
@MIDWEST I HOPE YOU READ THIS.
Has she denied you sex or does she ever say “idk no I have a stomach ache can we not…” Etc.????????
Answer that question. Think. Tell us.
If yes she has->start gaming other girls behind her back and distance emotionally
If not–> slowly let her back
Be honest with yourself. This answer will give you your decision on what to do
April 3rd, 2015 at 10:34 pm
@skfrellc
Once, when he tried to have some sort of serious talk with me and I sensed it and became sad. He later told me that he had tried to break things off, but I don’t know if he was already doing things or not at that point. There may have been other clues if I try to look at them that way, I guess…sometimes I feel like a naive idiot blissfully believing that he felt the same way as I did. He was very upset when I wasn’t available to talk on the phone every evening (he was in another town)…
Do you think he would marry you at his very young age?
No, I had not expected a marriage proposal any time soon (as in, I expected years, but hadn’t even thought of how many) I had just stopped considering other men/boys. I have this dogged devotedness that sometimes I think lead him to believe that he’s not important because I’m not feminine enough, cooing and being at least a bit jealous? One of many thoughts about what would have sent him into the arms of another woman :(
Was he a guy who most any girl would want to get with?
Not sure…he was a smart guy, funny. Not classically handsome, but in shape and friendly looking. He was pretty good with his finances, but a student, so not rich…
April 3rd, 2015 at 10:53 pm
Well that makes me think of this https://books.google.com/books?id=XyQ4REsVaIIC&pg=PA224&lpg=PA224&dq=the+hazards+of+being+male+quotes&source=bl&ots=FU4vegn91G&sig=uJAC_fQtke5tID1a2gkKUWWkDAw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=blEfVaGfNuW1sASWxIGIAw&ved=0CDMQ6AEwBw
April 3rd, 2015 at 11:16 pm
@Rollo- Happy Birthday,if a bit belated…I finally listened to your podcast with Steve, actually started it after work, but realized it was almost 2 hrs! Anyway, just finished it and I have to say, it was awesome.
First off, Steve did a great job as host this time, excellent.. and I hope he reads your comments here and people start chiming in on the interview. He really gave the topic matter the treatment it deserved, the right balance of funny/light and taking it seriously
What I really wanted to say though is that every time I hear you in an interview I get it so much more. When I read the blog, I read into it a sort of seriousness and darkness- obviously some projection of my psyche and subconscious feeling on the matter. But when I hear you talking about it I seem to be able to find the more reasonable, lighthearted way of approaching the subject matter and incorporating RP truths into my life in a way I can feel good about. You speak of role models and one of the reasons they are important is because they stimulate your ability to imagine an alternate way to integrate yourself.. Listening to you has that effect. It’s really cool.
In the last year or so that I have been reading your blog I have gone from deep in denial, to damn fucking angry, to despondent, to accepting such things as the burden of performance, to feeling less angry.. and now I think this interview has illuminated something else. Listening to two men who “get it” shoot the shit and have fun doing so is stimulating to visualizing a way forward.
I guess this is an issue for me since I am surrounded by BP friends and family and not a RP dude around anywhere. It great
You have my deepest gratitude. Thanks man, Seriously.
April 3rd, 2015 at 11:16 pm
@pam
“Is there somewhere to start to look for where I went wrong?”
to start, what did you do for him?
April 3rd, 2015 at 11:19 pm
@Pam
Not to be cliche, but he just wasn’t that into you. Read The Rational Male from front to back and understand what both men and women really need from each other—and how you can optimize your chances to make both worlds align in everyone’s favor (best as can be achieved, anyway). You’ll be happier.
Or, you can go read Jezebel, Cosmo, and watch The View. Of course, that pathway leads only to lots and lots of cats.
April 3rd, 2015 at 11:24 pm
I just wrote the most maudlin, depressing post, wow. Got to shake that shit off – been in a dark place lately. End of winter in New Hampshire can get like that. I deleted it and figured I’d just ask other men here? Do you ever get overwhelmed by all this? As an older guy, 52, it’s really hard to look forward to much great for me in a Red Pill world as the only thing more disposable than a man in this world is an “old man”.
Perhaps another way to put it is the “selfish prick” phase is starting to lose its charm for me. The thing about having been on this heroic blue pill under-appreciated uber-good man hamster wheels is that it gave me some bigger picture to fit into. I was doing a greater good, living up to that ideal of manhood and fatherhood and family and marriage. I thought there was something uplifting and motivating about it in some ways.
But now? Is the purpose of life just to pursue pleasure? All this feels so empty. It’s not just me, right? And please, don’t proselytize to me, I’ve been quite religious at points in my life and quite consciously became an atheist – consider me the pickle that won’t become a cucumber again.
I’m interested in how you guys deal with the existential angst of shedding a traditionalist worldview? I see through it all now, and see how cheap and misguided it all is. Humans don’t look very noble to me anymore. Not a bit, actually. In fact humans look like hairless monkeys with the males running around in rut all the time.
April 3rd, 2015 at 11:37 pm
@sjfellc
“To start, what did you do for him?”
At least a few things? I spent a lot of time travelling. Whether it was to his parents’ place when he was home or the hour train ride to his college. I also supported him when I had the opportunity, referring him to my father’s company during one of his co-op placements. And When he was struggling to get off of weed I massaged him down from his stress block. In terms of sordid details, I hate to put it out there, but… I put on a number of “shows”, inciting (usually successful) attempts at pretty much every imaginable position. (Since then I’ve been in a couple of shorter relationships and realized that I may have to accept a mis-matches libido in a direction that seems to be peculiar reading over this thread?)
@TheDiplomat
I’m getting through things as I can. It’s a lot to take in and if guys feel a Red Pill hard to swallow, imagine how a woman has to take some time! Please be patient with me
April 3rd, 2015 at 11:40 pm
Pardon me, @redlight! That response was for you
April 4th, 2015 at 12:22 am
“Is the purpose of life just to pursue pleasure?”
There is no purpose of life. Life just is. You just are. Be.
“All this feels so empty. ”
What you are feeling is the absence of an illusion you wove your life around. It has nothing to do with the state of life itself. It is all what’s not in your head. When your head finds something else to fill itself with the empty feeling will go away. This does not mean that you will find that life has some other grand purpose that you were unaware of, just that you can find something that gives your life purpose, despite life being ultimately without purpose.
And there is a great deal of power in that. Your frame of purpose can be nearly anything, at your choosing.
“Humans don’t look very noble to me anymore.”
They never were. So what?
“In fact humans look like hairless monkeys with the males running around in rut all the time.”
Yeah, but at least we’re the smartest and most capable monkeys, so we’ve got that going for us, which is nice. Do the other monkeys seem concerned about being monkeys? If they aren’t, why should you be? Maybe you just need to find the way to being good at being a monkey.
April 4th, 2015 at 12:23 am
@Glenn
“I’m interested in how you guys deal with the existential angst of shedding a traditionalist worldview?”
Seeing as how “Women do not lack a capacity to sympathize with male hardship or pain, but they categorically lack a capacity to empathize with uniquely male experiences.” in Rollo’s empathy thread, I would suggest the tack to take would be to get a group of vetted guys to hang out with.
This tactic has saved me a bit a existential angst that I am not normally prone to. But none of us men are immune to it, what with the social norms and political pandering to the FI these days.
If you have not read Jack Donovan’s book “The Way of Men”, please do yourself a favor. Your hind brain evolved over 100K to 200K years. And yet your forebrain is having a meltdown from societal decline in the last 25-40 years. You were meant to have strength, courage, mastery and honor among a group of masculine males that defended their perimeter from bullshit invasions. Well guess what? That bullshit invasion 50,000 years ago was no different than today’s FI societal convention bullshit.
Get some guys together that you resonate with and schedule a group meeting once a week and talk things over.
Check out this blog essay:
http://www.freedomtwentyfive.com/2012/11/getting-the-gang-back-together/
I’m 54 and I have shunned a tight gang of men all my life because I never met or saw guys that thought and resonated with conversation like I wanted.
In the last five years, through a hobby pursuit (whitetail deer habitat) I met and started to hang out with a group of guys that shared the same pursuit. And then in retrospect they also shared a similar personality type that only 2% of men share. Bingo.
Hanging out with like minded masculine red pill males to commiserate with can help you shake off some of that angst. I’m not saying it would be easy to find decent guys to hang with, but I know for sure it would help you.
And then there is always Schadenfreude–as a hobby you can take up in The Decline.
April 4th, 2015 at 12:29 am
” . . . Jack Donovan’s book “The Way of Men” . . .”
Which you can find an echo of in my last sentence.
April 4th, 2015 at 12:45 am
@Pam
April 3rd, 2015 at 11:37 pm
“Please be patient with me”
Please do not feel like commentators in this blog are mean or will take advantage of your comments or say bad things to you.
It is a blog where the vast majority of men have had a crisis due to female hind brains (evolutionary psychology) that don’t sync with today’s society. Basically they have been screwed.
And a female lack of empathy for any thing a male experiences.
Deti quote: ” Women cannot listen to Men talking about or working out their dating/mating/relationship issues or problems. Women reflexively view a Man discussing such issues as “whining” or “complaining” or “bitterness” or “sour grapes” or “well, you just chose poorly, so sucks to be you” or “suck it up, no one wants to hear you bitching about it”.
“Since then I’ve been in a couple of shorter relationships and realized that I may have to accept a mis-matches libido in a direction that seems to be peculiar reading over this thread?)”
You might want to explain that one better. I would think the original post pretty much spells out that a “mis-matches libido” is quite the problem some of us old married men must deal with and not stop the always be performing routine. If you start out with a mis-matches libido, I doubt it will get better after the marriage.
Sounds like you got played. (No offense meant).
Not white knighting. She sounds like my daughter’s age. Well maybe I am.
April 4th, 2015 at 12:54 am
@kfg
“Yeah, but at least we’re the smartest and most capable monkeys, so we’ve got that going for us, which is nice. Do the other monkeys seem concerned about being monkeys? If they aren’t, why should you be? Maybe you just need to find the way to being good at being a monkey.”
“” . . . Jack Donovan’s book “The Way of Men” . . .”
Which you can find an echo of in my last sentence.”
Not buying it kfg.
Glenn deserves more advice than “maybe you just find the way to be good at being a monkey”.
Nor does he need to be told he “needs” to be good at being a man. Which was Donovan’s message. Facts are that he got screwed over by being a “Good Man” and that is not at all fair.
I can empathize.
Rollo>>Commentators>>Help your fellow man.
April 4th, 2015 at 12:59 am
Edited to add that there is ample evidence in Glenn’s commentaries in the past that he might indeed have been excellent at “being good at being a man”. Hence the need to not tell him what he needs to do in that regard.
But the feminine side didn’t appreciate the good man he was. Because of lack of empathy.
Don’t go seeking empathy from the FI.
April 4th, 2015 at 1:04 am
@sjfrellc
Thanks, I’ll try not to take things personally.
By mis-matches libido, I haven’t since found a guy who can keep up with me, not vice versa. Sorry for the confusion. I’m not good at talking about it as I come from a small prudish (Christian) town. Since moving for college, I haven’t been able to bond with any women enough to talk openly about it either, so, well, now I’m confused…I can’t imagine getting into a relationship (let alone marrying a guy?!) if you have to act as though you enjoy him physically? Seriously?
April 4th, 2015 at 1:10 am
” Nor does he need to be told he “needs” to be good at being a man. ”
Which is why I did nothing of the kind, although you implied it by recommending both the book and its solution to being good at being a man, so I’m really not sure what the beef is.
What I told him was that he was going to have to find his own way, because only he is responsible for it now.
“Facts are that he got screwed over by being a “Good Man” . . .”
Most of us here have taken a turn or two in that club and can empathize just fine.
April 4th, 2015 at 1:14 am
She IS my daughter’s age and I can’t follow the line of thought. And it scares me that she is confused. But I know why.
April 4th, 2015 at 1:16 am
“What I told him was that he was going to have to find his own way, because only he is responsible for it now”
He’s going through existential angst and you say man up?
He asked a question. You gave the wrong answer.
April 4th, 2015 at 1:25 am
“He’s going through existential angst and you say man up?”
No.
“He asked a question. You gave the wrong answer.”
I’m waiting for his take on that, not yours. It might take a few years for me to get the answer. It’s taken as long as 20 in the past.
And of course he can give his own take on your answer as well, which might resonate with him more. Given that you recommended Jack Donovan’s book and I concur, again, I’m not sure where the beef is.
April 4th, 2015 at 1:31 am
Read the white knight post. Don’t want to go there, sorry if I elicited that response.
I will keep reading. I don’t think I should have jumped into the forum so quickly.
April 4th, 2015 at 1:50 am
@pam if you can’t find guys with high sex drives for you than maybe you need to lose weight or something……or your clinging to guys who aren’t interested.
April 4th, 2015 at 2:07 am
“I’m not sure where the beef is.”
Men have enough empathy to recommend to their fellow tribal members more than just trite statements.
There are virtual (online) tribes. And actual in person tribes. In person tribes carry more weight.
Just a prescriptive recommendation to Glenn. Hand out with like minded, red pill, similar personality type men.
I had a fling in pre-med school where I bided my time for a year before med school and after college. TL;DR I met with a wholesome,nice, cute platonic girl nurse known from college and her cute friend nurse and her cute boyfriend. We we all worked second shift in various hospitals.
The bottom line is we met once a week and downed a few beers between 11:30 PM and 1:00 AM once a week. It was a fantastic experience since each of the four participants were givers and not takers. Each of the four were out to tell you what is best for you. None of them wanted to game you.
Inter-sexual get togethers are fine when you are 24 years old.
But when you are 50+ years old and have angst you need someone to have your six. An impartial guide to tell you what is best for you.
Meet with like minded men exclusively. Occasionally.
April 4th, 2015 at 2:14 am
” In person tribes carry more weight. ”
I point I make repeatedly at RoK. Again, we concur.
April 4th, 2015 at 2:18 am
@Hobbes
Brother your last post hit the spot I concur would one day to thank you in person for how much that all resonated with me. It’s weird in a way when Rollo mentioned the mentoring I was thinking about my nephew… The one thing about the burden of performance was what kept me in the blue pill stage for a good chunk of my life. I was around people who kept hurting me for not being myself but something in my monkey brain knew I had to perform. It’s the most underared aspect of the red pill for me. It’s one of things in the interview that resonated with me the most especially when md tomassi was mentioned about how rollo saw her with kids. Made me think of it as women having to do it as well. But how you get to the point where you share it so it is always their but not something you intentionally have to think about
Anymore
April 4th, 2015 at 5:34 am
@Pam
This will be a difficult and prodigious amount to absorb, and, surprisingly, is not gender-specific in its wisdom and application. If you are for real, you will read and learn for the betterment of your life and for that of any man who is worth having. No one else in the mainstream media or the feelgoodosphere is going to tell you the truth. If you come to understand the truths that are spoken aloud and routinely tested here, you will greatly increase your chances of true fulfillment as a woman.
Red Pill women are a coveted prize and as rare as albino leopards. But understand that beyond that—a man worth having is the true prize and rarer than anything you’ve ever been trained to imagine. Realize in your core that YOU are not the prize as society has trained you. Learn well and you will be able to find and keep a worthy man.
Eschew this knowledge and join the ranks of the unhappy, unfulfilled and bitter. That is a fact, whether you choose to believe it or not. Good luck, and feel free to hang around here and ask questions, test your beliefs, and ask for insight.
April 4th, 2015 at 6:30 am
@Glenn – I get where you’re coming from, as I’m not far behind you in age (48). Wish I had an easy answer for you, but I don’t. I do know I need to find a group of guys to hang with and do stuff with. Which is hard to do here in the ‘burbs. The married guys here pretty much turned over their social calendars to their wives when they got married. And I just don’t run across that many single guys since most of the parents among my kids’ friends, teammates, etc. are married.
About the only other thing I would know to suggest is a geographic change. I could use one myself.
April 4th, 2015 at 8:26 am
@sifrellc – Great advice, thank you. I am more connected to the men in my life than ever, I have one friend that i speak to almost every day. However I only see one or two of them a month. There is a difference between that and the group of guys you describe. I get it and it’s missing from my life. There is something intensely powerful about a group of men who are likeminded and supportive of each other involved in a shared doing of some sort. I bet most women would be jealous of that kind of friendship and love, and really never experience anything like it. I also will get the Donovan book – I thought I was on a good track but what started as a few week overwhelm is now turned into a multi-month funk. I need to refresh my POV.
I also appreciate you responding to KFG – although I’m at the point with all this that I just don’t bother talking to women anymore about anything to do with my suffering. She can’t even make herself take me seriously or actually consider what I’m saying with any depth, it’s so transparently cuntish. Every man here can see how trite her dime-store psychology is, how offhand the tone of her comments are and how out of sync that is with my tone and depth. As though “just be” is an answer to me – a guy who was a practicing Buddhist for almost a decade, who used to do all day meditation sits and who actually meditated until I disappeared myself – women do this all the time. They talk to me about shit they have a superficial understanding of and dispense their tropes and BS as wisdom – when I’m so far beyond them. They miss that I judge such people as morons and just move on. Moving forward, I’m think I’ll limit my social circle to only people who read 3 non-fiction books or more each year – oops, that eliminats almost all women…After 45 years of reading 40+ books a year (30+ non-fiction last year), I really am much smarter than some dummy who hasn’t been developing her mind as a lifelong pursuit – i.e.; most women. They also lose patience when I try to explain complicated things to them, like history or economics or how the fucking world actually works. So I don’t bother anymore.
My existential angst is so much more profound than anything she’s ever known, yet she misses all that. I internalized all the FI garbage, starting from the moment I was born. I made it my own – I shamed myself more than anyone else when I got sick and lost my job. I turned on me faster than the women in my life did – but it was they who shocked me. When I realized decades of being a provider and protector meant nothing in this world, that I wouldn’t even be respected or treated with any kind of gratitude as a result? That women I’d dedicated a big chunk of my life and identity to caring for could just cast me aside like an old shoe, and spit on me while they did so? Nah, she has no idea what that’s like. Her privileged existence on this planet cannot even begin to approach what that kind of life was like. Yet she runs her stupid mouth.
My world cracked in half that day. You guys have seen me progress/evolve here in the comments over the past year+ here, and that was after a year of near suicidal depression. Let me put it more simply. As a man, I functioned with respect to the missions in life I signed up for. I used to have a core mission about being a man, and it had a lot to do with who I was for others in my life – my daugther, lovers, friends, my sisters, my family, my work, my country – this is what I was taught it meant to be a man. To always be able to deal with what came up, to lead, to be the strong one, to be the one who can actually read the map and find the trail and make everything work out.
To find out that was all for naught is what I’m talking about. To be used for all that and then shit upon afterwards, that’s what I mean. To realize that there is nothing noble to aspire to, that’s where I’m at. And I find I can’t get excited about just grubbing around for more cash/pussy/food whatever.
@LastCoyote – Thanks for your words too. This blog has become a space where I can explore and share parts of myself with other men in ways I’ve never done in my life. I appreciate it so much.
Funny, why don’t women get that the best way they could demonstrate respect/care/affection/solidarity with men on this blog is by shutting the fuck up? But nope, even in the one place that is so obviously a male space, they just can’t control themselves. I’m not over at Vogue or Cosmo or CafeMom or Feministing – how about you ladies just listen and learn? For once in your fucking lives?
A smart man once told me to “Take the cotton out of your ears and stick it in your mouth. Listen to learn” – this was drummed into me by older men trying to teach me something I didn’t know that I didn’t know. This is the kind of rough love men give each other. It’s profound, deep and is the “safest” place I know as a man.