Forge the Sky:
The heart of all this is: in a woman’s mind, humans have three genders. Women, alphas, and betas. The problem is, it’s difficult to distinguish between the latter two as there are no clear biological markers; a few un-fakeable traits like height and muscularity give an indication, similar to how long hair tends to indicate a woman, but not infallibly so.
But women have different relationships with them. To women, betas are friends, helpers, co-workers, employees, servants; unless related by blood, they are practical beings only. There is no romance to them. They are useful, fun, maybe even someone to be a little affectionate toward so long as they remain useful, but they have no deeper self, no soul, no mystical thing to bind to.
Alphas are something else entirely. They are actually people – people drenched with desire, romance, spirit. Him, she can respect. In greater cases even worship. It matters little how well he performs objectively, so long as he does nothing to make her doubt her assessment of him as alpha. If he does perform, she admires and praises his performance – but she’s doing that about something or another regardless, even if she’s gushing about how he bought her a bag of skittles.
No woman will stand beside a beta as he faces, and succumbs to, death. Not unless it’s convenient, or she would be shamed otherwise. It simply would not make sense for her to do so. Would you hold your employee’s hand as they lay dying? Only if they had a fatal accident right in front of you. Past that, condolences to the kids.
Men see two genders. Men and women. Better and worse, more and less attractive, but no fundamental difference. Without being trained in a (for us) counterintuitive mindset, we will by default project our understanding of gender upon women. And so we try to improve our beta game, instead of flipping the script.
The blue pill is miserable because it is learned helplessness. From within, it is the cracking of an invisible whip, punishment meted capriciously and without time or reason. There is no pattern or method to the blue pill man’s pain.
FTS must’ve been reading my mind this week because his comment made a perfect segue into what I’ve been developing this week. The most salient part of this comment, I thought, was “Without being trained in a (for us) counterintuitive mindset, we will by default project our understanding of gender upon women.”
This was a good observation because there are intrinsic parts of the male psychological firmware that the Feminine Imperative picked up on long ago and deliberately co-opts to better aid in optimizing women’s control of Hypergamy.
From the utility-need side of Hypergamy, this mostly manifests in various forms of serviceable security. The Beta Bucks aspect of Hypergamy can be distilled to a need for security, protection, and a certainty that a woman and her offspring will be insured against any uncertainty. Every psychological and sociological dynamic that contributes to feminine-primacy keys on this need for existential certainty. The War Brides dynamic, the evolution from old-order chivalry to modern feminism, and now the social / legal handicapping of men to ensure that feminine-security certainty above all other considerations are all manifestations of this need.
The Feminine Imperative learned long ago that men’s innate protectorate instinct for the feminine was its second most valuable means of masculine control – the first being men’s ‘always on’ sexual impetus. Thus pairing the two as a means of control is a simple deductive proposition for the imperative. The rudimentary connection being, “protect the woman and I get sex.”
This is the unspoken exchange that’s part of our evolutionary past. Men are nothing if not deductive (yet creative) problem solvers, and women have used this to their hypergamous advantage since our hunter-gatherer beginnings.
This is what confounds modern men under the auspices of our present feminine-primary social order. We’re emphatically told that women “never owe men sex“, yet the latent message is, and has always been, “but, if you perform to her satisfaction, she might be more inclined to give you sex.” Carrot to pull the cart, I know, but this mental algorithm is a sociological buffer for women – exclude the sexually unworthy, but leave an acceptable caveat in order to leverage the possibility of sex with those who are still useful in providing security.
Bear this in mind the next time you read a story about a savior White Knight who was beaten to a bloody pulp for his effort to protect a woman from the “predations” of some Alpha(s) she likely wants to bang anyway. Men will project, by default, our own gender interpretation onto women, and sometimes pay the price for it. Betas believe the feminine-primary, equalist advertising that men and women are functional equals while still force fitting an expected, old-order, male-protectionism (completely based on an unequal state presumption) into that belief – often at their own expense.
Invisible Men
While I disagree that there are no distinct physical and cultural markers that women use (sometimes subconsciously) to distinguish Alpha men from the bulk of Beta men, I strongly agree with the distinction and characterization Forge the Sky makes with how women regard Beta men.
The vast majority of men are sexually invisible to women, but all males are visible in terms of their utility to women and the role those men are expected to play in deference to women’s solipsism.
There’s an important difference in that visibility with respect to men and women we need to consider.
I expect that female readers will trot out the “ooh, ooh, men do it too” counter that women are invisible to men who don’t see them as a sexual prospect. That may be the case, particularly for mature women convinced they should be sexually viable into their 50s, however, those women’s functional utility is never an issue for men. Neither is it an article of attraction for a man. As much as a feminine-centric culture would like to convince women of the opposite, men simply don’t factor a woman’s provisional utility into their attraction equation.
Invisible men never become visible to women until either those men intrude on a woman’s’ awareness or she has a specific utilitarian need of him. At this point, whether due to arousal / attraction awareness or her specific need (usually protection or security insurance), that man must perform to prove his maleness. He must qualify for her visual acknowledgment of him.
Over prolonged periods, this invisibility, and the fear of having his insistence rejected, can influence men’s overall perception of women and their intergender interpretations. Invisible men tend to confuse a woman’s utility interests in him as genuine indicators of interest (IOIs). The Feminine Imperative prepares for this ‘mixed message’ with a constant, self-perpetuating social narrative that tells the invisible men they are never, under any circumstance, owed a woman’s intimacy – it is always a gift, a reward, for her approval.
Despite this aspect of their social conditioning, the Invisibles still read more into those IOIs and perceive that a woman’s attraction is a genuine extension their own serviceability. This is the foundation of the Savior Schema. Much of what the manosphere considers sexual ‘thirst’ is a direct result of the scarcity mentality that results from an Invisible becoming an unexpected service-providing option for a woman.
Invisible men become more compliant when women’s utility needs make them visible. They confuse their use with genuine appreciation and desirability.
If we consider the 80 / 20 rule of the sexual marketplace and figure that 80% of Beta men are sexually invisible to women we get a broader perspective of how the gender landscape has evolved in an era where women’s security-side needs are planned for and met with a relative degree of certainty.
I had a teenage kid I used to consult who related this story about how one of his nerdy friends had somehow spontaneously generated the interest of a girl who was an obvious two points above his SMV. His initial frustration was one of wonderment about how this guy could be ‘dating’ so hot a girl while he wasn’t bumping the needle with even the girls he thought were a point below himself.
His nerdy friend assumed the predictable self-righteous Beta position that some “special” girls just understand and appreciate guys like him in favor of the brutish jocks “society tells them they should like.” All this came two weeks before that year’s homecoming dance (and after-party), where she promptly left him to go dance and party with her girlfriends and their jock guy-friends for the rest of the evening.
This kid had served his utilitarian purpose of fronting the money for the evening, a limo, corsage, photos (of their group) and the bit of risky underage liquor he could manage. In spite of all that he still refused to make the connection of his being used for her purpose. Invisibles feel validated in their own manipulation because that utility made them visible (“do my homework nerd”) even if just momentarily. As bad as that extortion was, that brief moment of visibility implies the prospect that another woman in the future (a really special one) will also appreciate his utility and reward it with her intimacy.
Needless to say, this visibility differential becomes an internalized factor in men’s approach to women. There are ways an invisible man can make himself visible; all require effort and risk. As I stated before, a man remains invisible unless his physical presence and arousal prompts make him unignorable, his performance is outstanding enough to draw attention or he simply asserts his visibility towards that woman. Physical bearing and performance recognition being the Alpha Fucks side of the Hypergamy equation is an easy follow, but a man asserting himself and his personality is where the Red Pill and applied Game come into play. This prospect will always imply risk of rejection until such a time that an Invisible’s confidence supersedes his self-image as an invisible.
We had a long discussion in the last thread about the mindset of the MGTOW contingent of the manosphere and the sentiment of men wishing to remove themselves wholesale from the sexual marketplace. I understand this sentiment and I know men, like Advocatus Diaboli, who have legitimately recused themselves from the SMP, but it seems to me this want is the result of having been invisible to women for so long. They get to a point where they become invisible by choice.
The Third Sex
I can’t finish this essay without drawing attention to FTS’s first observation:
The heart of all this is: in a woman’s mind, humans have three genders. Women, alphas, and betas. The problem is, it’s difficult to distinguish between the latter two as there are no clear biological markers; a few un-fakeable traits like height and muscularity give an indication, similar to how long hair tends to indicate a woman, but not infallibly so.
After I’d reconsidered this I had to dig out my copy of Plato’s Symposium and pore through it to read the part where Aristophanes proposed that there were, in fact, three sexes (in primal times) that their all-male discussion collective ought to consider:
There were three sexes: the all male, the all female, and the “androgynous,” who was half male, half female. The males were said to have descended from the sun, the females from the earth and the androgynous couples from the moon.
A lot is being made of transgenderism recently and the fluidity with which people want to arbitrarily “gender-identify” borders on the ridiculous, but FTS’s observation has more implications than I think most are aware of. I’m sorry to go all philosophus on you, but I can definitely see parallels with the symbolism Aristophanes suggests and the female perceptions of the division of maleness FTS brings out here. Although Aristophanes would say that these primal beings split into gays, lesbians and heterosexual beings, I’d suggest that this primal awareness stems from a male understanding of the division of Alpha and Beta men and how women perceive them, visibly and non-visibly.
I covered this a while back in Queens, Workers & Drones:
Selective Breeding
So powerful is this sense of entitlement, so consuming and convinced of the correctness of their purpose is the feminine that women will literally breed and raise generations of men to better satisfy it. Hypergamy is cruel, but nowhere more so than in the relationship between a mother overtly raising and conditioning a son to be a better servant of the feminine imperative.
But to breed a better worker, the feminine imperative’s queens can’t afford to have any corrupting, masculine, outside influence. On a societal scale this might mean removal (either by disincentives or forcibly) of a father from the family unit, but this is the easy, extreme illustration. There are far more subtle social and psychological means that the imperative uses to effect this filtering – via mass media, social doctrines, appeals to (feminized) morality, the feminine is placed as the correct imperative while the masculine is filtered out or apologetically tolerated as vestiges of an immature and crude reminder of masculinity’s incorrectness.
Yet for all of this social engineering Hypergamy still demands satisfaction of women’s most base imperative, Alpha seed. The queens need physically / psychologically dominant drones – if just for a season and at their ovulatory pleasure. While beta workers are endlessly vetted in sisyphean tasks of qualifying for the acceptance of the feminine imperative, the Alpha drones live outside this shell; their qualifications only based on how well they satisfy the feminine’s visceral side of hypergamy.
The great irony of this social solution to hypergamy and long term parental investment is that the vast majority of the offspring of this arrangement would be raised to be better workers. Those betas-to-be boys must be insulated from the corrupting influence of the drones lest they devolve into the Alphas they crave yet cannot control. It may seem counterintuitive, to raise what should ostensibly be optimized genetic stock as a cowed, sometimes medically restrained, feminized beta males. However it is through this harsh conditioning that truly dominant Alphas must rise above. Essentially the genetic lottery isn’t won by women in such a social environment – it’s men, or the ones who rise above in spite of the conditioning efforts of the feminine imperative.
February 26th, 2015 at 5:34 pm
@TuffLuv
How about this:
It’s the bed you made and you gotta lie in it. Get through it by being as cut throat with the harpy as you can while hanging on to everything you can. In the end every man wipes his own ass. But don’t try to pass off your internal rationalizations of your poor decisions as good advice to guys here. That’s what our real issue is.
Your advice thus far has been shit that my mom would have told me. Bad Blue Pill “twue wuv” idealism. Yeah, I haven’t been through what you’ve been through but I’ve heard exactly all you’re saying before. Sometimes out of my own mouth in the past. It’s wrong. Plain old wrong. If you can’t recognize it that way, you need to read more, lurk more, introspect more, ask questions more, and give advice a lot less.
Oh and don’t call guys “chickenshits” for their decisions if you don’t want to be attacked, then cry like a bitch all shocked when you get attacked. Just sayin.
February 26th, 2015 at 5:37 pm
Tuff..
Think of the hope being abandoned. It is a false hope of somthing unreal. Better to spend energy on things real and not dependent on a woman. This does not mean being a sociopath. It just means realizing personal power and personal value. You live and control your life rather than being controlled by false hope.
February 26th, 2015 at 5:38 pm
What if I told you your 20y.o. “risk investment” intentionally got pregnant back in 95?
February 26th, 2015 at 5:39 pm
@TuffLuv
Ignoring for a moment that you completely ignored my last reply to you, and in doing so essentially conceded that you were wrong…
As someone who practices rocket science and still finds Rollo’s work fascinating, it’s more than somewhat insulting to have it implied that this stuff isn’t worth intellectual rigor. You are free to patronize Jezebel with your nonsense if you don’t like the thought that goes on here. Get lost if you’re not willing to stop and think, bucko.
I also find it hilarious that you, the person who said that actions like “holding a door open” had black and white consequences, are now accusing the purveyors of game as being the ones who are making dogmatic claims.
Right, because a “real man” will “man up” and put his very soul through a meat grinder for no good reason at all. You either have a vagina and are poorly pretending to be a southern man (really, who writes with an accent?) or you’re a moron. I’m betting both.
February 26th, 2015 at 5:42 pm
TuffLuv
February 26th, 2015 at 5:32 pm
The comments you just made are proof positive you have not read a significant portion of The Rational Male and the last three years of blog essays.
You just showed up to loiter. Rollo has said time and time again that he can’t and won’t give individual advice. BECAUSE IT CAN’T POSSIBLY WORK for persons like you.
“When one of you has an actual “practical” suggestion, I’m listening.
Kill her? Kill him? Sure, I’d love to.”
KILL YOUR OWN F**KING BETA ***dammit!
February 26th, 2015 at 5:42 pm
@TuffLuv
the kind of woman or relationship
Comprehension, motherfucker. You’re still not doing it. We spend a bunch of time discussing your BPD ex, and as I’m sure everyone here agrees NAWALT in particular. They’re all hypergamous. They’re all going to shit test. They’re NOT all BPD. Comprehension. Try it. I’m tired of repeating myself.
Additionally, I acknowledge that it’s not entirely the woman. It’s also partially the relationship itself which depends on the frame I set. Until I feel confident that I can set and maintain that frame AND I have vetted the woman I am considering for as many critical flaws as I can eliminate, diving in to an LTR involving children is the shittiest gamble I could ever take as you’re finding out.
Christ, it’s like trying to explain shit to a 5 year old. You’ve read ‘sphere stuff, but you’ve not comprehended it.
February 26th, 2015 at 5:42 pm
Sometimes the only successful “fighting” strategy is simply to let go of false hopes and expectations. It is like the story of Hercules and the snake, two heads replace each head he cuts off. Realize the fallacy for what it is and walk away from it.
February 26th, 2015 at 5:44 pm
@sj
“Was she a raving BPD? I would still contend you can’t keep Frame at all with a BPD chick.”
She is a histrionic waif, a master projectionist, a master gas-lighter, and in the last 5 years totally hyper-sexual.
She was severely neglected as a young child. Emotionally abused. Alcoholic mother. And severely Alienated from her father by that mother (full on lies about him). He was absent from age 5. She has full blown PAS, as she still has no real bond with the man even after learning the truth.
All of this I knew from year 1. But I didn’t know about BPD until Rollo’s site displayed a link to Shari Schreiber’s site.
All I learned about BPD, and what enlightened me that my wife is a textbook BPD waif, is from Schreiber.
As to frame, I will say this, with her anyway: With minimal stress and monotony, she will be dominated, she will submit. She was manageable. She was generally a good wife and mother. These problems surfaced from time to time. Everyone who knows her, knows there’s something off. My classification of her as BPD is a summation of 20yrs with her.
Most people just call her volatile, or crazy bitch (affectionately).
But she actually has NO real genuine intimate relationships.
She struggles greatly with intimacy.
She has ZERO empathy.. Which comes from the alcoholic mother (very common).
Thanks for asking.
February 26th, 2015 at 5:46 pm
The same thing I’m advising you, to wake up
You’ve been lied to for so long you’ve become the liar to yourself.
Learn this now, you will never achieve contentment or emotional fulfillment in a blue pill context with red pill awareness.
February 26th, 2015 at 5:47 pm
Next thing is I expect tuff to tell us that Jack Daniels is the best bourbon out there these days. It’s the best. You have drunk hundreds of whiskeys all over the world and its the best. Gotta Be because that’s what Frank Sinatra drank. …………………..As you drink it with Coke.
February 26th, 2015 at 5:52 pm
So, how did all that chivalry go over with her?
February 26th, 2015 at 5:57 pm
@Sun
“It’s the bed you made and you gotta lie in it. Get through it by being as cut throat with the harpy as you can while hanging on to everything you can. In the end every man wipes his own ass. But don’t try to pass off your internal rationalizations of your poor decisions as good advice to guys here. That’s what our real issue is.”
Thanks man. Makes sense.
I just hate to see young men throw their hands up entirely. Of course TRP will make any logical man gun shy.
It would be nice to have a better solution.
February 26th, 2015 at 5:58 pm
@Tuff
What you are looking for here, no one can tell you. You gave up your personal ambitions and passions and replaced them with investing all of yourself in your 20 year BP marriage.
Now that you are being kicked out of the very thing you poured your soul into, you are in a lost place. Trying to justify what you did during that time as “correct”.
You are now effectively a blank slate, you have no ambition, no passion, nothing to do in life anymore. As hard as that is the comprehend, but its the harsh truth.
February 26th, 2015 at 6:01 pm
@Sun
“Additionally, I acknowledge that it’s not entirely the woman. It’s also partially the relationship itself which depends on the frame I set. Until I feel confident that I can set and maintain that frame AND I have vetted the woman I am considering for as many critical flaws as I can eliminate, diving in to an LTR involving children is the shittiest gamble I could ever take as you’re finding out.”
This is much, much better than “Abandon all hope”
February 26th, 2015 at 6:03 pm
Fixed it for you Tuff:
“Of course TRP will make any il-logical man gun shy.”
February 26th, 2015 at 6:04 pm
“So, how did all that chivalry go over with her?”
An unproductive prerequisite, I’ll admit. But I will also say, I was less ‘courteous’ with her on average than a common stranger.. cuz she was a bitch about it..
February 26th, 2015 at 6:09 pm
Back to the OP, a great BP song that ties in with the “Invisibles”.
And I don’t want the world to see me
‘Cause I don’t think that they’d understand
When everything’s made to be broken
I just want you to know who I am
February 26th, 2015 at 6:11 pm
Got to say, as much BP as the video I posted is, that song as a soundtrack to the movie it was produced for is like BP genius, BP art in its truest form.
February 26th, 2015 at 6:14 pm
Everybody falls on their first jump
February 26th, 2015 at 6:16 pm
And watching it with a RP lens, I greatly appreciated it for what it is. Men, even in a BP idealistic world using their passion to create some really great shit.
February 26th, 2015 at 6:27 pm
“Everybody falls on their first jump”
wise words.
I know we are trying to convert Tuff,
anyone care to comment on my earlier question about the irrational and quantum mechanics?
Book ETA Rollo?
February 26th, 2015 at 6:39 pm
@tuff,
Eh ultimately I’m sorry that everyone is here, you as well. Make the best life you can moving ahead, kill your ego and replace your beliefs with better and more comprehensive ones, and find some young chicks to screw for awhile until that gets old. There really isn’t that much else to do involving women.
Find some great hobbies and master them. Training my dog is one of mine. Dogs are far more loyal then hos, though considerably less attractive. Create something. Erase everything about that bitch from your life. Everything. Even change her name on your phone. Eliminate it as part of your ego purge.
You’ve got a long life left. Best to keep living it!
February 26th, 2015 at 6:54 pm
Tuff,
I would find a 28 year old Epiphany phase BPD chick, get her pregnant and have some great sex and dump her 12 months later.
Heh heh. It will be great while it lasts.
February 26th, 2015 at 6:56 pm
Sorry, I kid.
February 26th, 2015 at 7:04 pm
LMAO.. Thanks all.
No apologies necessary.
February 26th, 2015 at 7:09 pm
@Tuff
Not all women are BPD—a term that seems to get thrown around a lot by wounded guys still in BP culpability denial. I know, because I used to be one (probably still am, on occasion).
But yes, best strategy is to assume full spectrum AWALT at all times.
February 26th, 2015 at 7:17 pm
@TuffLuv
What you don’t realize is that the statistical likelihood of meeting the woman worth an LTR commitment is almost nil. This is where the “Abandon all hope” attitude about LTR comes from in the sphere, and I subscribe to it. It’s required to keep yourself safe and keep tour expectations realistic enough to avoid predictable mistakes that a lot of what you’ve advised will inevitably lead to. It’s why we talk about “unicorns”; it’s shorthand for the statistically unlikely woman worth commitment.
Abandon all hope, but make sure to understand why you do.
February 26th, 2015 at 7:24 pm
Hope is a disease. If you’re hoping for something, you’re not taking positive action to make it happen. We shouldn’t so much be abandoning hope as we should be burning its forests, and salting its earth. Hope is the fallback buffer behavior of betas… positive action towards ones own goals should be the order of every day.
February 26th, 2015 at 7:25 pm
“Despite this aspect of their social conditioning, the Invisibles still read more into those IOIs and perceive that a woman’s attraction is a genuine extension their own serviceability. This is the foundation of the Savior Schema. Much of what the manosphere considers sexual ‘thirst’ is a direct result of the scarcity mentality that results from an Invisible becoming an unexpected service-providing option for a woman.
Invisible men become more compliant when women’s utility needs make them visible. They confuse their use with genuine appreciation and desirability.”
Mm-mmm-mmm! take that to the bank…
I think this is one of the things that makes unplugging hard for those in, or trying to come out of, the matrix. Because even though the FI encourages this behaviour, which stems from biology, but which women now exercise zealously with profuse irresponsibility, part of why this happens is our fault, at least to some extent: we didn’t read the medium and its message, and when you look back, many times, you see that you could have turned the tables and saved yourself a lot of grief (or not), so men get this stockholm syndrome like aneurism that tells them no, there’s some ‘ONE’ out there for you, women say what they mean, etc…
Sigh!…ヤレヤレ!
February 26th, 2015 at 7:32 pm
Upthread someone wrote:
“The low value ones, which are most of them, will bring many forms of ruin to your life if you don’t guard against it.”
I would LOVE a future post on this Rolllo — How to Guard against it — in the past 6 months during my transition from blue-pill to red-pill this has happened to me TWICE and cost me $100k with probably more to come.
In both cases the modus operandi has been:
1) notice a change in my appearance / attitude
2) Invade my privacy
3) undermine my reputation and relationships.
My advice to younger players is:
Key EVERYTHING under Lock and Key at ALL times trust NO ONE..
February 26th, 2015 at 7:54 pm
Some reason this has been in my head as I’ve learned about TRP. Video references Falling Down, which was a movie that was actually a really spectacular commentary about being marginalized as a man (definitely one of the Invisibles) in modern society.
February 26th, 2015 at 8:03 pm
I like sharing a story of one of the most beta faggots I have ever met. Met him around six months ago.
This guy, former NFL linebacker, starts working with me. Huge guy and very good in a fight. But he is on the phone with some harpy screeching at him all day long. He’ll go hide to take her abusive phone calls. Over the past six months they have broken up and gotten back together so many times that I can no longer keep track.
It turns out that this guy, twice divorced, met himself a semi attractive post wall bitter single mother of three and went full on captain save a ho. He told me that over the first year of their relationship he spent his entire retirement, over $100,000, taking her on trips and to dinner and buying shit for her bastard children. SMH.
He ran out of money and she turned into a screeching harpy. He was confused. I subtly tried to guide him to some RP thinking but this douche’s head is firmly implanted into the FI’s ass.
Over the last six months he has actually engaged with many get rich quick schemes and started working a second job so be could give this worthless slut even more money. And she gives him no respect. Why would she? I mean he is willing to give her money so he must be a low value beta.
Oh God and the shit this guy brags about. He brags, BRAGS, about how this low value single mother let’s him eat her pussy. This fucking faggot once bragged to me that she pissed in his mouth. I shit you not. That day I had left my old favorite plate, 21 years old, in my bed to sleep off her hangover from a bottle of brandy that she brought to my house to drink with me before a night of fucking. I am the same age as this faggot, though in much better shape despite his years in the NFL.
The dichotomy between our thought patterns was incredible. I felt so bad for this guy. Such a fucking tool.
I made some public comments to him about how he should recognize his value and gave him suggestions about how to act. He ignored me, of course, as even subtle and minor RP thoughts are discarded by those stuck in the matrix. I did get the attention of a young 21 year old man, having trouble with his girlfriend, watched his father be removed from his life by a crazy mother, and he had found the red pill forums on reddit.
I’ve been counseling him some. Trying to teach him to run cold approach game. Got a few numbers to show off how to do it for him.
Still I can’t believe that this guy sitting five feet from me right now thought that it was a good idea to brag about spending all of his remaining money on some worthless single mother and her bastard children so that she would allow him to lick her used up pussy and then literally piss in his mouth.
Good God what a pathetic excuse for a man.
February 26th, 2015 at 8:06 pm
@StringsofCoins
Christ, even at my worst I was never that bad.
February 26th, 2015 at 8:12 pm
“What you don’t realize is that the statistical likelihood of meeting the woman worth an LTR commitment is almost nil.”
Myself and friends that have or recently had woman worth an LTR. Don’t want to lose them.
I got with a BPD chick in 1985 and exited on time to have no damage done. I went with a nurse in 1987 and after initiating a relationship, she had her first psychotic break while I was dating her. (BPD chicks are better than sweet psychotic girls because you don’t feel as guilty having sex with them.)Still no harm done.
Made a conscious decision to go to a residency after med school where there were more attractive nurses. Met an attractive nurse 3 months into residency in 1988. Married in 1990. Daughter in 1992, Son in 1994. I had social proof, DHV and red pill traits.
I swerved into blue pill but never crashed. Got back on track the last 18 months. Huge thanks to Rollo Tomossi another successful unplug. Rollo, you are not only good at being a man, you are a good man. In my guy circles, there are guys I want to associate with–they are the givers–, and those I don’t want to associate with–the takers. You sir are a giver to those of us that are intellectually thirsty. Thank you.
I’m glad I struck while the iron was hot and gamed my wife into marrying me due to social proof when she was 25 y.o. in 1988. She is a good woman and is attractive at near 50. She’s a WILF. I had no idea of a Neg on first meetup, or outcome independence in 1988, but they came naturally to me because I was on a mission to be good at being a physician. On a mission and she was welcome to come along.
Once again, I’m not damaged goods, neither is she and in pockets of the Midwest there are genuine good marriages that do indeed last. Each spouse being worth the LTR. These couples are all around me.
The Red Pill is easy to swallow when you are not traumatized or damaged. And it is essential if you just got divorced and are traumatized.
My kick in the ass motivation to be a better man, hit the gym, learn game better (been game aware since The Game book) and be less beta blue pill has come from seeing my wealthy compadres have their wives they would like to fuck walk away with cash and prizes (because of their vices).
I have had some success in realizing that LTR and married man game is not just employing tricks. It also includes eliminating vices and being a better man. And killing the useless Beta while employing the helpful beta.
The useless beta is the one-itis and supplication. The helpful beta is understanding comfort tests (different than shit/fitness tests) and passing both. Your wife comfort tests when you are not being good at being a man. She shit tests when you are not a good man. Or vice versa, women are fickle and you have to just get it. You can get it better with red pill and game understanding.
February 26th, 2015 at 8:49 pm
Comfort tests.
Thanks for the reminder that there is an RP term for it.
Since we agree that women ideally want both AF and BB in the same man, it follows that some amount of offering C3SP (comfort companionship cuddling security provision) is optimum, at least for LTR, and perhaps for most boomer women or those with a sensitive temperament.
.
Of course the C3SP must be offered from a position of strength and authority, not as supplication, pedestalizing or attempting to negotiate desire or build relational equity.
Having said that, I also had the impression that TuffLove was a woman from himherit’s first posts.
February 26th, 2015 at 9:09 pm
Athol Kay had a great essay on comfort rather than shit (fitness) tests. But since he has gone all retailing on us I find it difficult to navigate his blog to link to it.
Blue Pill Professor on reddit says simply:
” The trick is that a comfort test IS a Shit Test. It is just a more insidious type of Shit Test that requires a different response.
A Shit test is delivered in a sharp, demanding or unpleasant tone. It is mostly unconscious and she will throw them when she is unsure about you or the relationship to “test” your shit. The proper response is to not be emotionally fazed by her. Agree and Amplify, Ignore, Nuke (draw a hard boundary and stop it at all costs) are the proper responses.
A Comfort test is often delivered in a pleading, sad, or possibly whining tone. She will throw them when she is unsure of your commitment and needs some comfort. The proper response is to take your wife in you arms warmly and firmly and reassure her that you love her and everything is just fine and dandy.”
You cannot up your alpha and be a asshole when you want your LTR and she hands you a comfort test.
Otherwise you haven’t read up enough and it might blow up in your face.
http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/22/dream-girls-and-children-with-dynamite/
February 26th, 2015 at 11:03 pm
….and yet we wax on and on about what women want. And on, and on, and on. May your chains rest lightly upon your shoulders.
February 26th, 2015 at 11:36 pm
You know someone is selling you BP when they use “man up” tactics. They can’t sell you the benefit of what they are telling you to do- or of what they chose, so they reach deep into the “man up” well to get you to take a bad deal. So it goes with Tuff.
He’s not telling us how great marriage would be, how great a deal it is, just the opposite, everything he says shows us how shitty an arrangement he had. So to rationalize it he needs to see it as some masculine badge of honor- and he needs us to buy it. Having nothing of worth to really offer he does what the FI always does and holds out our masculinity as some reward for acting against our own best interests.
Here is the deal Tuff.I’ll “take the chance” when there is a woman worth the risk, when women show they deserve my provisioning, See, you have it all wrong- it’s not that men need to man up, women need to “woman up” and make themselves people worthy of investment and provisioning. Since women- I include your wife here- are apparently not behaving like woman of quality, they are not worth marrying. You got chumped into it- ok, alot of us got chumped into alot of shit, thats why the manosphere exists. but trying to sell us the same shit, in the same way won’t fly.
February 26th, 2015 at 11:42 pm
@Bromeo
“When everything’s made to be broken
I just want you to know who I am”….
THAT’S not great music. It is the melancholy whimpering of beta wussy stuck wallowing in a chronic state of blue pill blue ball yearning. So so so sad. Self pity bringith no pussy.
This is great music….
http://www.acdc.com/us/video/shoot-thrill-iron-man-2-album
February 26th, 2015 at 11:57 pm
Want to create seriously maximum dread?
Go home to,her with the smell of some other woman’s pussy on your fingers. You don’t have to say a fucking word.
February 26th, 2015 at 11:58 pm
The ‘invisibles’ aka nice guys are a vestige and legacy of monogamy culture programming, that frame used to work (under a scarcity economic ecology) but under serial polygyny culture it is no longer desired by women.
Women hate nice guys because they hate monogamy, every slur that is placed at the feet of nice guys is in reality a slur on monogamy culture, boring, unexciting, plain, suffocating, unsexy, predictable, monotonous, hard work, lack of freedom etc.
Nice guys are the mirror of monogamy culture (hard working, dutiful, family orientated, predictable, prudent, reliable, responsible, honourable) and women hate them for it. The nice guy is a threat to her serial polygyny freedom and the FI will reframe everything with a monogamy culture tint as oppression, i.e. patriarchy.
Interesting David de la Croix emphatically demonstrated monogamy culture was chosen by females when the economic ecology optimised it and provided maximum female utility. Women choose the social structure that provides the optimal cost benefit ratio under the prevailing economic ecology and men dutifully follow. The patriarchy is an FI fallacy.
Unfortunately the ‘red pill’ may in actual fact be playing into the serial polygyny paradigm.
February 27th, 2015 at 12:16 am
@johnycomelately- What an awesome post. Lots to think and chew on there. Never saw it that way but so obvious now.
Thanks!
February 27th, 2015 at 12:25 am
@ Hobbes
When faced with advice, and exhortations such as TuffLuv has provided I find myself insisting the advisor explain what’s in it for me. With only a few exceptions are the benefits I can EXPECT to receive ever even alluded to. Usually when benefits are described they are caveated so I can expect to not actually receive them, because “there are no guarantees.” And yet the costs and risks are obvious and never disputed. Even while intoxicated by the blue pill I failed to be persuaded, much less motivated, by this sort of arguement.
Further this “man up” style coercion is based on exactly not being a man, but a eunuch. To fulfill the requirements of the advisor the man must give up his own liberty, free will, and personally derived goals, and desires and only pursue that which is accepable to the advisor. Failure to find satisfaction with that life of external control is deemed to be a failure brought on be selfishness. Failure to achieve success will rest solely on the man’s shoulders. No sympathy, empathy, or admission of flawed advice will be forth coming because the advisor promised nothing but judgement, and responsibility. When the man cries in despair “but I followed your advice!” the response will be “you fucked up.” Either by a lack of effort, lack of faith in the program, or simply by following bad advice the advisor is freed from having any accountability for the results.
What I think is most bothersome is the implication that my wants, and needs, are always without exception deemed secondary or tertiary considerations to dealt with at some undefined point in the future. This is problematic because we never live in the future. We only live in the now.
February 27th, 2015 at 12:37 am
@BP- As always, perfectly stated. My thoughts exactly and its exactly what runs through my head every time as well. Like you, even in my most BP days I didn’t take the bait- fuck if I will now.
February 27th, 2015 at 12:44 am
@bp
“What I think is most bothersome is the implication that my wants, and needs, are always without exception deemed secondary or tertiary considerations to dealt with at some undefined point in the future.”
Nail head? Meet hammer. This is exactly the thought that tipped me from Blue to Red Pill. Everything was always supposed to be about everyone else all the time. My whole life, people had called me selfish right before they made their selfish demands. I had changed a lot, gotten a lot of Red Pill knowledge through plain old experience, but finally getting why I should just go ahead and be selfish was the tipping point.
The key to being Invisible doing exactly as you’re asked for everyone else’s selfish needs. The key to being Visible is taking care of #1 first.
February 27th, 2015 at 12:50 am
“@447
“Before I could even ponder on this ultra-cliche-like situation, the moment had passed and I drove on without slowing down.”
That was a pretty bad story… I was waiting for you to stop, game her and smash her in the rain. If you don’t, someone else will. It’s like you screwed yourself over from a lay just because of principle in thinking your somehow above and better than the FI.”
I can see where youcome from – legit.
The way I see it is very simple:
My sexual suppply is (fot the time being) secure.
There is another thing:
SHE was surly waiting for something like that, too.
Or for the “saviour”.
Or for the excitement of the “creepy guy at night in the evil black car.”
Why supply that need for the always-the-same stories?
Glitching up the matrix of the “usual and proper” expectations was more comfortable and more fun.
As said above – I’m pretty sure every gril with a borken down car waits for stuff like this – so why supply it? :-D
February 27th, 2015 at 12:52 am
“See, you have it all wrong- it’s not that men need to man up, women need to “woman up” and make themselves people worthy of investment and provisioning.”
I second that – strongly.
The rest is just meat with a value of zero / neutral entitiy.
February 27th, 2015 at 6:33 am
Can the alpha markers be faked…… I reckon not to any real degree based on some of the self declared “success” rates of PUA’s. I don’t mean to imply Game doesn’t work or what not but it’s a matter of degrees.
Would be interesting to take a guy, average guy, average build etc, use some temporary tattoos, dress him up in leathers etc and have my crew defer to him in public, say a typical sports bar and see how he does with the gashes. Think about it for a second…. would it give him bad boy cred? Status as not only a bad boy but king of the bad boys etc etc. My initial thought is it would not work because he would be off on all those body lauange etc.clues. It’s a slight twist on that telling folks he’s famous gag, but…. I don’t know given how so many betas think being a bad boy , having tarts and a bike etc conveys magic pussy getting powers it would be interesting to put it to the test.
I also want to give Rollo props for mentioning how mothers damage sons. As the regular know, to me mother’s are simply the 1st woman given a chance to fuck you over and hold no special place to me.
February 27th, 2015 at 6:54 am
@Tilikum,
Ha ha. Nice one. There is a huge gray area in the whole RP/Manosphere isn’t there? You have tread very carefully to avoid cancelling yourself out. Alphas vs. guys learning to be alphas to win female approval. It’s like coral snakes and king snakes. There should be an acronym or some recognizable phrase for slip-ups like these;
“If only I’d spun plates during our marriage, I would still be with her”
“If only I hadn’t pedestalized her, she wouldn’t have left me…”
“If you downplay the importance of women in your life, they will come running!”
Even my own addiction to learning more RP principles has that unspoken carrot at the end. “I’ll be more attractive.” But ultimately it’s good (and necessary) stuff to learn about.
February 27th, 2015 at 8:21 am
Never knew I was in an identity crisses Titkum. How could I have not known that these last 26 years…. How did any of the hundreds of grunts and tiered guys I work with not know this…..
You project like a woman.
Hold the door open to set the tone…. WTF? How about say you’ll burn her place of business to the ground in her advice proves unsat, notice her shy smile/ look away and pulling her number/ banging her after you threaten to destroy her livelihood? No thanks to the door holding thing.
February 27th, 2015 at 10:57 am
There is no topic I have not yet covered….Rollo
LOL best comment of the thread
You are failing at life in a grand way if you are a man and need a therapist. Get pissed, really fucking pissed and use that drive/anger etc to make yourself better. You have to make that decision on your own. Sure a man can give you pointers but the drive is internal and it is a decision only a man can make.
That isn’t a slam on any man here, but vote of confidence
February 27th, 2015 at 12:16 pm
@ SFC Ton
Lol. Your ego investment in your identity (laid bare here for all to see) merely makes you a target for a player. Your mind is weak, son. If I was you I’d read Roosh’s three pillars, and flush the gung ho right into the burn barrel.
You (claim) you fought another mans fights for honor. Yay. YaReally still gonna destroy your ranking with your girl in 45 seconds and TYB. (Take your bitch. I didn’t say me because I didn’t wanna seem self serving, haha)
Your self-invested identity IS your new prison, slave.
February 27th, 2015 at 12:31 pm
@melmoth & Tilikum
Even if LTR-as-goal is eliminated, I think there’s a couple reasons the ‘sphere covers how to get laid.
First, there’s something that brings a guy here, and it’s almost always the fact that he’s either not getting laid or not getting laid the way he wants to. Whether just to be a player, or to have children, the guy needs to know what the hell went wrong. Showing him what he should have done throws his mistakes in to sharp relief.
Second, it’s to throw the initial carrot out there to encourage a man to become Alpha. Most guys wouldn’t do it without some kind of motivation to get them off the couch, but the further down the road to an Alpha mentality he gets the less he cares about the chicks. It just becomes a reward unto itself and a set of habits. When he finally does reach some level of mastery over himself, he doesn’t have to think about getting laid anymore, he just does.
Of course that’s the theory I would have. I’m not there myself yet.
February 27th, 2015 at 12:45 pm
@SFC Ton
You are failing at life in a grand way if you are a man and need a therapist
I would strongly disagree in the case of genuine mental illness, which I personally suffer from. That’s like saying “You’re failing at life in a grand way if you are a man and need a doctor to set your broken bones”. No, sometimes you do need a professional in a matter to deal with it. Paranoid delusionals, schizophrenics, MPD, or most commonly bipolar/manic depression are actual illnesses.
In my case, it’s clinically diagnosed manic depression. Yes, you can medicate it, but that only treats the symptoms. Therapy is the only way we have to get to the root causes. You can always tell the people that have never suffered from it though; they think it’s just a case of being sad and refusing to get over it. Much like “walk it off” would be bad advice for our broken bone example, “just laugh it off” is shit advice for manic depressives and a recipe for disaster.
But hey, you’ll disregard me because clearly I’m failing at life in a grand way despite how early medication and ongoing therapy has helped me move from openly hating myself to finding things like TRP. Despite owning my problems and seeking the help for them. Despite working to overcome them, I’m failing.
Good advice there. Shame it’s wrong.
February 27th, 2015 at 12:54 pm
I thought counseling was for losers, until I bit the bullet. It saved my marriage when we fell apart after 10 years. It really did, and it put us back on a solid course, hence my daughter..
Won’t go into details because we’ve talked enough about me.. but don’t knock it till you’ve been there. Most important is finding the RIGHT counselor or clinician. We tried a few, and the first two were like.. y’all should just divorce.. I seriously, no shit, almost knocked the motherfucker out.. and I refused to, and never did pay him.
February 27th, 2015 at 1:03 pm
@Tuff- stop, lol. just stop. It’s just too fucking funny…
Lord, did you guys catch that? lol
BTW, it’s not that I disagree with therapy- I’m all in Suns camp here. SFC is really just brandishing off the shelf, easy bake manhood bullshit about therapy. Therapy can help many men with many issues done correctly and if you can avoid the FI infested therapists.
February 27th, 2015 at 1:06 pm
Learning some trades over the years has helped my self-respect a lot. It took a while but I’m finally starting to come around.
I’ve found a lot of people will try to take advantage of me. I’m very good at the things I do, and a lot of times people’ll try to weasel their way into getting free work from me.
I always respond with something like, “Sure, I’d be happy to help you. You can drop tomorrow. Bring the piece with you, and I’ll give you a price estimate.”
Or if someone wants to do a session online, I tell them the same thing: I’d be happy to work with them, and then I give them my PayPal address, let them know my hourly rate, and then ask to set up an appointment.
It’s basically a polite way of telling people I’m not their bitch. It’s also just standard professional practice, and it weeds out the people trying to get free work.
I also charge fair prices, and I know what my value is. I know what I’m willing to settle for, and how much I need to be paid in order to feel happy about working, and to feel that I’m being fairly compensated for my time, effort, and skill.
I’ve been applying this to how I think about girls lately. If I’m not dating a girl, I’ve never had sex with her, etc. — why would I do anything for her? What value is she providing to me? How am I being compensated?
Blue Pill guys IMAGINE that they’re being compensated. Their “compensation” is the HOPE that they’ll get to have sex with this girl, or the idea that the girl is secretly in love with them, etc. etc.
Betas have no room in their hands for genuine, tangible compensation, because their hands are full of fantasies. They give and give and never get anything in return because they don’t value themselves in the SMP — they don’t know HOW to value themselves in the SMP, because they’re unaware that the SMP even exists.
The anger they feel is comparable to a guy who’s worked his whole life and thought he saved up a ton of money, but then finds out that his employer was sending it all to offshore accounts. He was told he was going to have all this money saved up for retirement, and he planned his whole life around the compensation he THOUGHT he was receiving all along….only to find out that when he goes to cash in, he actually has nothing.
All his hopes and dreams that rested on the back of that money he THOUGHT that he had, that he was PROMISED he was going to have….all those years of hard labor for nothing. Talk about a crisis.
But I’d like to end on a positive note. Being aware of the SMP is a huge advantage. If guys can get over the initial emotional hurdle of taking TRP, everything becomes so much clearer and easier.
Even though I’m not getting laid at the time, I feel a lot better. I’m not wasting my time and energy supplicating anymore. I haven’t done any favors for any girls in I can’t remember how long. I’ve ditched the old set of books. That alone is priceless for the peace of mind. I was thinking about how I used to have ONE-itis all the time last night. It was crazy to feel like that was another lifetime. I literally felt like I was in hell whenever I had ONE-itis. Hell on earth.
Know your value, and know what other people value: what services you have to provide based on people’s needs (for women, e.g., their hypergamy), and what fair compensation for those services is.
If you want one night stands, you gotta be the kind of guy girls want to have one night stands with. You have to appeal to the Alpha side of their hypergamous instincts. The idea being that if you are that guy, you’ll get compensated for being that guy in turn. You’ll get the one night stands if you play the part.
If you want a long-term relationship or marriage and kids, you have to be the guy that makes that work. It might be a taller order than having one night stands, but I wouldn’t write it off.
I certainly am not anywhere near being in a position where I’d even remotely consider that. But that’s just me. For other, older guys, or guys who are already married, they have to consider their situation, and also what their desires for their own lives are, and then work towards that accordingly.
I just had a funny thought: “Rational Male is the happiest place on earth.”
Feminists are always finding something WRONG with everything. That’s their focus. It’s all based on what’s WRONG, or at least, things they make out to be wrong. If they can’t find anything genuinely wrong, which they usually can’t, they’ll make something up just to have something to point a finger at and cry “DEMONS!!! DEMONS EVERYWHERE!”
I just want to know the truth. Tell me the truth. What is really going on? I don’t care about identifying with a movement or labeling anything. I just want the truth.
Rational Male has answered those questions better than any other blog I’ve read. Just calling a spade a spade is the key to that IMO. We have to use labels because they’re a convenient way of conveying concepts, but the real deal is just laying things out as they are.
Basically — I don’t care what pretty words anyone is using or fancy arguments or whatever. And you don’t see that on this blog, ever. What matters is how things work in the real world, period. That’s what you see here.
And I think peace comes from that. The initial shock for me was pretty bad, but that’s like another lifetime now. I don’t even remember being upset about TRP, although I can objectively remember that I was. It’s just like I can’t access or remember those feelings anymore. I read this stuff now and it’s like, “Oh yeah. Yeah, that’s true. Oh, that’s interesting. That reminds me of this situation I had with this girl recently. I’ll make a note of that.” etc.
February 27th, 2015 at 1:11 pm
Hang in there @sun and hey.. you know something that helped a lot with that 6 months of therapy we did, and maybe this can be translated to your situation..
First time we went in, I stopped my wife on the sidewalk outside.. told her, let’s agree, no matter what happens in here, every time we exit we stop right here and kiss like we did that first night we met, no matter what. She agreed and it really worked. We were ruthless in that room, but we never fought afterwards, NEVER. Did a lot of fuckin though. The point is, the fighting ended in there, there were no outside struggles. That office became the place for our battles.. outside were only applied solutions and forgiveness.
For you, maybe you could come up with some uplifting routine that follows your sessions. Some promise you make yourself so that you don’t dwell in the mire.. so that you don’t think it to death.. and so you don’t feel like you wasted your time, etc.. Fuck I don’t know, dance a jig.. approach the next chick you see.. go drink a soda pop.. whatever.. something routine.
Just a small suggestion.
February 27th, 2015 at 1:13 pm
Next 10 years was a rather long time @hobbes.. Again, don’t wish to elaborate.. Yes, it only temporarily saved my marriage.. She tried to get me in there again 9 years later and I told her to fuck off.. so..
February 27th, 2015 at 1:23 pm
@TuffLuv
Hahaha, I’m with Hobbes here. Stop, bro. Just stop hahahaha…
Look I’m all for individual therapy, but marriage therapy is a completely different bag. That shit is most definitely a waste of time in pretty much all cases. It almost always boils down to negotiation of desire. Desire can’t be negotiated.
http://therationalmale.com/2011/08/25/the-desire-dynamic/
If one or the other (or maybe even both) people are suffering from psychological illness, they should go individually absolutely. But going to therapy for anyone other than yourself (which in marriage therapy you’re doing) is not going to work. It’s not about fixing problems. It’s about negotiating terms of surrender.
February 27th, 2015 at 1:25 pm
Marriage Counseling = Last stop before toll
February 27th, 2015 at 1:33 pm
Let me introduce you all to my therapist. He only charges me $27 per month.
February 27th, 2015 at 1:35 pm
Here’s my other therapist. He’s considerably more expensive and he only works in the winter months, but he’s well worth the expense.
February 27th, 2015 at 1:36 pm
Tons of great comments on this thread. Like this one:
”
He simply thinks there is no psychological component to arousal & attraction.”
And if so he is wrong. I knew a couple guys in the college weight lifting club who were physically about as alpha as possible. They were real specimens of masculinity physically. But…they were total pussies when it came to women, shy, unsure of themselves, fell all over themselves to be blatantly nice to girls, holding doors, looking for excuses to be protective, “wore their hearts on their sleeves” and fell for girls with the slightest hint of interest. Both pinned away over girls they met and barley knew. They didn’t get many dates and seemed to never get second dates. They were pathetic. But they had everything physical a girl would want. A few hot girls attended the club from time to time. As soon as they found out what these guys were like they were done….DONE! Girls do not like pussy boys in any kind of body. This strongly indicates there IS a psychological component to attraction even if it is nothing more than turning attraction OFF.”
Yep. Watch the movie “Teddy Bear”. lol
February 27th, 2015 at 1:39 pm
lol @ marriage therapy. The counselor will be 100% bought in and brainwashed (or, probably, one of the Tribe actively destroying families on purpose) by the FI, and it is nonstop male bashing, telling the husband to do more dishes (exact wrong thing to do), etc, and pushes her even further towards divorce. It is a total humiliation of the man to even be there. He is supposed to be the head of her, period, and she is supposed to obey. Try to say that in front of your feminist counselor, however, and she will literally call the police and file a false rape charge against you right then and there.
I could go on.
God why didn’t I discover the red pill 6 years ago?
February 27th, 2015 at 1:48 pm
@Rollo
Got to try snowmobiles once when I was on spring break in Creste Butte and loved it.I haven’t gotten to try them since, though. Definitely intend to do it again when I get the chance. Motorcycles will do just fine in the mean time.
February 27th, 2015 at 1:53 pm
FI invested therapists are the reason I don’t trust the entire industry. In a society where healthy masculinity is sooo derided, there’s no way in f-ing hell I would trust a “professional” with the thoughts in my head. In fact I did try once with your standard resident college student therapist and I felt like I was confessing to a janitor.
It’s akin to having a slanted forehead, in a world where the entire profession of doctors believes in eugenics, and people seriously suggest you should go see a doctor.
I’m sure thoughtful people will cringe at me saying this, but at this point for guys it is safer to learn what you can on your own about conditions and problems you may have, and make your own way towards a path of moving away from behaviors that are harming you. I’m not saying do it alone, but I am saying you should not trust professionals.
February 27th, 2015 at 1:53 pm
dude why did I go into mod? my last comment was super on point and positive.
February 27th, 2015 at 1:56 pm
Your assessments are crap and they come from inexperience. The usefulness of it is very simple. It’s only a way to get things off the chest without it blowing up.. And when you make that point that your wife never listens to about whatever it is you need that you’re not getting, be it time with your bros, or less bitching or whatever, and that counselor backs you up.. the wife is 100% more receptive to it. And even if you feel her complaints about you are nonsense.. the environment makes her feel like she got it across to you and all you have to do is let the counselor beat you up a bit.
It was never about desire dudes. We fucked like rabbits through our worst times, that was never a problem.. ever. Post-pregnancies were the only dry spells.
Get it though your heads.. not all problems center around fucking. If anything, our problem was that we tried to fix other, more serious problems in the bedroom, which only masked them.
I will agree that most MC is bullshit because the counselor is a joke. And I’ll agree wholeheartedly that if you’re in there to fix your sex life, forget it. Agreed.
You talk about frame a lot here. Well, admittedly, I had lost some of my frame with her at the time. It did set it right, because she was forced to have some humility. Pretty basic stuff guys, and I had to give up very little.
If you married a perfectly chill woman (in this world?) great.. Most people are going to have some marital strife and if it reaches a boiling point, the right counselor can help. ASSUME what you want.
Women try to beta-ize their husbands, yes? That’s what they do on average.
If you think you can just weather the storm and still hold frame in all cases, with all women.. you’re being didactic and illogical. Some women are more stubborn and hotheaded than others.
Let me just save you the response… JUST WALK DUDE, it’s over..
Again, didactic, arrogant, and assuming.. There are way too many reasons NOT to walk. Far more than the benefits of walking. You can say, well look where you landed TUFF, you’re fucked. Here again, somehow being fucked 10 years ago when my sons were 10 and 8 would have been better? That is the one true reason I was in that room, guys, make no mistake. If there’s one thing I succeeded at, it was getting my sons through before they could be re-daddied and stolen from me. If you think I wasn’t aware of that as my objective at the time, think again.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:03 pm
It’s not just that Tuff went to marriage therapy- it’s everything else is also a study in denial and rationalization.
Two therapists tell him to divorce. Turns out they were right. Does he look back and say, “well, I’m glad I had my daughter, but they were right”? nope. He proudly states he wanted to manfully knock them out and then refuse to pay them. lol.
Instead of accepting that his doomed marriage was so shitty that two people paid to profit by keeping them together said “fuck it”, he is instead happy for the one that kept in said shitty marriage for another fucking decade. But hey the sex was great- get it? Never mind he could have had great sex with a variety of women in that decade. The hamster won’t let him see that.
And the hamster is really strong with this one.
Tuff is turning out to be a great study in RP denial. It seems what he is avoiding the most is the pain of regret. Is that what keeps guys BP? Fear of regret?
February 27th, 2015 at 2:04 pm
All you have to do is interview your counselor.. not that hard.
The one I found was old school, believed in patriarchy. sympathized with my plight, was 55 years old, and was a woman.
She was bad-fucking-ass. Period.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:06 pm
Hmmm sex with others, or my son’s very souls.. hmm lemme think about that.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:06 pm
@Tuff, who made the first proposal to see a marriage counselor / therapist, you or the BPD wife?
February 27th, 2015 at 2:07 pm
TuffLuv – “…the wife is 100% more receptive to it. ”
100% of zero is still zero.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:10 pm
First man who can tell the story of how he cut his losses and left, when his kids were at stake, and still young, and his wife was higher SMV, and the sex was good…
Let us know please.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:13 pm
No, but there are plenty of guys who’ll tell you how they “did the right thing”, stuck it out, got raked over the coals, lost their kids and the wife went off to bang the Alpha cad anyway.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:13 pm
She did. My response was an exact reflection of what y’all have said. It was a direct shot at my manhood, and I felt like it was straight up wussification. She was obviously trying to get someone to tell me I’m wrong, it was a power play.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:13 pm
True Rollo,, and you KNOW I get that.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:14 pm
it was a power play…
So that’s why I took control and found a counselor I could depend on to make sure and balance things out.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:16 pm
Did it put me back on top completely? No.. but it quieted things down.. a lot.. And things got better. Was I beta-ized.. to some degree.. of course, but by and large it didn’t change much from my end, I now had a tool to use.. When she’d start working up, I’d say, let’s talk to Sheryl about it. simple as that.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:16 pm
Tuff- You don’t see your own spinelessness. Sorry, but the stench is strong. You keep holding your sons up as the reasons why you put up and stayed. It’s all bullshit rationalizations.
Get this through your head
1. just as you fought to stay in a marriage to maintain contact with your sons, you could have fought to mantain contact and influence with your sons outside of the marriage. You chose to stay in FOR YOU. Stop hiding behind your sons
2. You teach kids by example- you taught your kids a bad example of a bad marriage and putting up with shit they shouldn’t put up with. Congrats.I’m sure you tell them not to put up with shit, but your example says otherwise. EXercise- walk up to your sons and tell them you put up with your wife because of hem. See how that feels- to you and to them. Not good? there is your answer, right in your fucking guts
3. you had good sex? so what?, you could have had great sex with a variety of women in that decade. You keep harping on it to prove something- to yourself. and only yourself. It’s transparent to all the experienced men here
4. So here you are and now your daughter is the exact position you were avoiding for your kids. Why don’t you suck it up for her? Are you letting her call someone else daddy and booking? Are you fighting for her and you role as father? then you could have done the same for your sons. You stayed i that marriage because you are a beta chump, now kicked to the curb. Deal with it, learn from it but stop blowing smoke up our asses already.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:17 pm
The prosecution rests your Honor.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:18 pm
Gotta go… sorry for stirring it up again.
enough about me, eh?
February 27th, 2015 at 2:24 pm
Let me put it more simply
You allowed a woman to hold your children hostage and use sex to keep you where she wanted you as long as she wanted, and then were summarily dismissed as soon as she decided your utility was used up.
How manly is that, exactly?
February 27th, 2015 at 2:28 pm
Male “therapist” here. I don’t call myself a therapist (fucking hate the word) and I don’t call myself a social worker (wtf does that even mean) either. There are male therapist out there that embrace their masculinity, are active physically, and aren’t slaves to FI thinking. I work in a setting/profession dominated by women obviously but I bring a perspective to my patients that my female colleagues don’t/can’t. When they are running around yapping and all strung out and stressed im grounded and poised. They feed off my energy, body language and demeanor but I never feed off theirs. The most common thing I hear from people both professionally and personally is that I’m a calming presence. Not in a ” oh it’s gonna be alright tell me all about it” manner. But in a nonverbal, energy kind of way. Rollo would probably call it command presence (really identified with that article btw) but I just call it being. It comes naturally..in a way it always had.
Tl:dr Not all male therapists (fucking hate that word) are feminist pussies or evil.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:30 pm
Tuff is just coming to terms with a Red Pill reality. He’s going to cling to idealisms that made sense in the past. I can’t fault him for trying any avenue that might be a solution to his wife’s insanity.
However, it is a useful illustration of the, sometimes horrible, truths of the Red Pill. Marriage counseling sells hope fto the hopeless, but it’s actually a prime mechanic of the Feminine Imperative.
February 27th, 2015 at 2:30 pm
@hobbes you’re dead wrong.
1. dead wrong.
2. my sons consistently watched me assert my place as a patriarch. yes, they witnessed extremely high levels of unhealthy conflict. but again, dead wrong. The one example I set firmly is don’t take shit from the bitch. again assume what you want. Leave and do it from the outside? wake up dude, think about that. Again, love to hear the story from the guy who chose that path.
3. meh, whatever
4. regrettably, where I am now I could not control. What happened 10 years ago I could, and did control. I would have ‘sucked it up’. Yep. Wife was done. Period.
Btw, I kept the house, and made her leave. My son is still with me. I own the curb. I let my daughter go, for the obvious reasons that it would be near impossible to win her, and to try and keep the lawyers out, and end it amicably, which I accomplished, then she appealed, and won. So guess what I’m doing now? Spending every last penny trying to bring my daughter home, and fight the bitch off. My lawyer is $350/hour and I will not stop until I’m either victorious or broke.
Won’t deny I was BP’d.. I’m defending myself because y’all oversimplify a lot. Opportunity costs. nuff said/
February 27th, 2015 at 2:47 pm
TuffLuv – “I’m defending myself because y’all oversimplify a lot. ”
No.
You’re defending this narrative because you came here to shout we’re all doing it wrong and need to “man up” and embrace our inner beta.
We called bullhit.
You defend your original position by going into various narratives and distractions. The most recent distraction. The story of how you won your marriage except for the part at the end where you got fucked. Much like Seatle claiming they won Super Bowl except for that last minute.
All of this serves ultimately to defend and support your original contention that beta is good if done right, nothing is sexier, and we’re all a bunch of meanies.
Constantly changing the subject, moving goal posts, non stop shaming, poorly written macho bragging…*sigh*…
Please go back to your gender studies class, and it might be time to change your tampon.
February 27th, 2015 at 3:05 pm
@TuffLuv
No.. but it quieted things down.. a lot.. And things got better. Was I beta-ized.. to some degree.. of course
Dude can you not see your own denial working here? Can you not see the hamster huffing and puffing on the wheel in those two quick sentences? You’ve got to be able to or you’re going to get nothing out of TRP. I mean that sincerely. You’re getting nothing out of this so long as you can’t see what’s happening there and really comprehend it.
@Rude Awakening
I feel like any therapist counseling men that doesn’t recognize modern feminism as misandrist abuse of men is intellectually bankrupt in his own field. I say “his” because I do truly believe women can’t counsel men. At all. Not that they can’t be smart enough to understand all the nuts and bolts of male psychology, but that they can’t relate to and understand the male experience. Particularly in the ways Rollo details in his writing.
I sympathize with Jeremy’s paranoid view of therapists above; most are pretty much slaves to the FI, and that’s a systemically enforced thing. The paranoia is not at all unfounded in reality. You literally won’t graduate from college programs or be professionally credentialed if you can’t put up at least a facade of FI-approved thinking. But a therapist who does see things from a male-centric point of view can be invaluable to men who like me not only suffer from mental illness but also lacked good masculine influence in their lives growing up.
@Hobbes
You allowed a woman to hold your children hostage and use sex to keep you where she wanted you as long as she wanted, and then were summarily dismissed as soon as she decided your utility was used up.
So much this. See the funny thing is I’ve known a few guys in TuffLuv’s exact situation (hell I’ve dealt with a couple BPDs personally, once as college girlfriend, another recently as a plate for shit test practice) and I can tell you BPD chicks are huge on the blackmail. They know for some reason people bail frequently on them, but they don’t bother to figure out why. They instead focus on developing strategies to keep a man, hence getting knocked up.
Rollo was right when he said it was likely TuffLuv’s wife “accidentally on purpose” got pregnant. She had him right where she fucking wanted him, and then got rid of him when she was done with him. Her frame, all the time. Her plan, all the way. TuffLuv’s problem is that he can’t realize that to salvage his masculinity going forward, he’s got to let go of the illusion that anything in those 20 years even resembled masculine behavior. She owned his ass the whole time.
That’s a hard pill to swallow.
February 27th, 2015 at 3:08 pm
@Rollo an badpainter- I understand him completely. As harsh as my comments may be, I get it, Got knows I surely do. Embarassingly so.
What mazes me about the bitterness of RP truths, is that the truths are not even that hard to swallow. Once your resistance passes, at least for me, it’s like “why the hell did I fight it so much? Whats the big deal?” lol
Its the destruction of all the rationalizations and lies, the regrets and the self image/ego investments. What hurts is not the Rep Pill, its the claws of the blue pill digging deeper into your flesh trying to hold on.
I still have my angers, my pains.. Mainly its changing patterns of behavior that come from habit.. but I know when they arise that the fault is not the red pill truth,m which is neither evil or painful in and of itself, but my bp ego investment trying to hang on.
I have a long way to go before I am the man I know I can be. But I am so glad to be past the place Tuff is at.
and @Bad- perfectly said, but nothing we say will sink in. He thinks we are trying to instill something in him and doesnt realize we’re doing the opposite- removing debris in his way
February 27th, 2015 at 3:14 pm
Tomassi: “Marriage counseling sells hope to the hopeless, but it’s actually a prime mechanic of the Feminine Imperative.”
I went to marriage counseling for about 3 months, and looking back, it is one of my worst mistakes. (I am still married btw, but I have a long road ahead of me to get to the red pill state I am aiming for.)
My take on marriage counseling is that it is a situation where you are explicitly demonstrating that you DON’T “just get it,” and you are trying to negotiate for her desire. Walking in the door to a marriage counselor, anytime, anywhere, is a blue pill action.
February 27th, 2015 at 5:23 pm
@gregg –
“Women panic if BETA men go MGTOW. ”
Not if they (betas) are 80% of the population….
“Many Alpha men already are MGTOW – they fuck but do not give a fuck, they live their own lives for themsleves”
Alpha & MGTOW should not be conflated…They are not the same.
February 27th, 2015 at 5:45 pm
You squeal like a bitch Titum. Not sure why you want to drag Ya Really into it but y’all are certainly willing to try. Hit me up on my blog and I’ll give your her contact info but you better bring more to the table then that weak ass bench-press you brag about.
Got it Sun and no offense intended; needing meds is not the same kind of thing.
February 27th, 2015 at 6:01 pm
@TuffLuv
That’s absurd. There’s no other word for it. What you just wrote right there is ridiculous. You are saying that professional therapists are the only method of inner expression that is capable of alleviating a violent response. You’re abdicating all responsibility for your own decisions/actions before you even make the attempt at self-diagnosis with language like that.
February 27th, 2015 at 6:08 pm
The way that psychotherapy really works is that a limbic connection is established between therapist and client, and slowly the client becomes more like the therapist.
Choose your therapist wisely.
Similarly, choose wisely whom to love, for that is who you become.
February 27th, 2015 at 6:17 pm
@SFC Ton
It’s cool. I’ve had to make the distinction for people before. I just know from my personal experience dealing with clinical depression that it’s entirely different beast from just “being depressed”. When I see a friend who’s just down, I kick them in the ass to get back up. When I can recognize signs of clinical depression (which is more recognizing a long term pattern than short term signs to be read), I direct them to a therapist.
Spend your life with this problem and you get good at spotting the signs. On the minus side, it means I have to deal with it when it crops up in me. On the plus side, means I can help dudes who do suffer from it overcome the stigma of getting help. The great part is that there IS help, it just takes accepting and owning the problem. That step alone can be really hard to take.
In my case it has become manageable. My latest bout with it after my last relationship I recognized that I had one last trigger to manage and it was a doozy: relationships with women. Running the course of that has been… rough. I’ve finally gone back and dealt with all the parental abuse I suffered (particularly at the hands of my mother; she saw a boy that looked like her abusive ex husband in front of her and abused him a lot for her catharsis), the failed advice and views on relationships I’d received for years, and during the course of that found TRP community.
As I’ve mentioned, the therapist I found for this through dumb luck has been really great. We’ve managed this round without medication, he’s been 100% supportive of my RP conversion, and he pushes me hard to continue down the path it’s put me on.
February 27th, 2015 at 6:42 pm
I get that Sun. Therapist implies chatting; my sister in law, (ex but my ex’s family is still good to me) is the kind who is a MD and writes prescriptions so I have an appreciation for that stuff via her. Very helpful and much different then”therapist”. In that case their is a fault, like your car not starting, and a repair for it.
Side note, she saw through my ex wife’s bullshit and is the primary reason I am still friendly with my (ex) in laws.
As always, it is good to.read about your progress. It’s how hard you fight that counts. Men normally loose more rounds then they win but some how it’s the fighting that gets you to the top and keeps you there. If nothing else the fight gives you a tangible base for pride.
My mother hated me (and my brother) for being born males. As in frequently saying she should have aborted us etc. Yay mom, and that was just the verbal. She meant it as a curse but it was a blessing. We were pretty much immune to pain when we hit the Ranger Regiment.
Any rate, what you overcome is what makes masculinity
February 27th, 2015 at 8:26 pm
lol. it really is that easy fellas.
February 27th, 2015 at 9:02 pm
@Sun
I think the conundrum phase of RP awareness is early on. When you’re learning ‘No fux given’ mentalities at the same time that you give such a massive fuck that you’ve led yourself to the internet to figure out why things went so off-track. It’s basically logically impossible to avoid that gray, conundrum phase. Who didn’t get those first nuggets of RP wisdom and then be overcome with eagerness to take them out into the world and win approval/get revenge/get chicks with them? I like to think I’m farther along. One of the tougher realities of RP is that there isn’t a reward, unless you count simply avoiding hell as a reward. But there isn’t a big, joyous upside, though one naturally thinks there will be at the outset. It’s just a self-containment or state of autonomy/freedom that doesn’t mean things will be good or interesting. That part is still up to the individual. RP helps to save time on distractions and avoid pitfalls but it’s no bong hit. It doesn’t produce happiness. Living well produces that and RP just takes away the barriers to living well and of course, truly living for yourself.
February 27th, 2015 at 9:04 pm
Just a quick PSA here: The discussion this week has been pretty involved so I’m going to let it go through the weekend. That and I’m in the middle of converting the new book to digital now.
Almost ready.