sjfrellc hit me with this question from Monday’s post:
Rollo, what are your real “feelings” about this blue pill guy. Are you surprised that you couldn’t peer counsel him to come around to your perspective? Or are you frustrated that the Blue Pill Feminine Imperative and social conventions are like a black hole and sucked him in and wouldn’t let go?
Lets just be clear about something I’m not sure I’ve ever addressed before, I never expect any guy to come to a Red Pill perspective. I’m thankful guys find this blog, I’m glad I can help and my book and writing here is accessible, but I don’t expect men to accept any of it. If I expect anything it’s that the vast majority of men will resist even a passing reference to anything counter to their Blue Pill conditioning like a cornered animal. Most men are completely inured and dependent on an intergender social system and a set of rules they’ve been raised to believe is fair (if not grossly weighted in their own favor) and women are abiding by. They believe that contenting and satisfying a woman’s sexual strategy is a realizable life success.
I’ve always said unplugging guys from the Matrix is like triage, but this man was like reading last rites to a guy 10 years ago only to find out he hasn’t died yet. It’s no secret that I’ve personally known a man who hung himself and two more who swallowed bullets as a direct result of their inability to come to terms with their shattered hopes of an ideal Blue Pill life. It’s one thing to have men commit suicide because their ONEitis fears of losing “the best girl they’d ever get” leave them, but it’s quite another to watch a similar man waste away to the end of his life still grasping for the hope that in the last half hour of his life that Blue Pill goal might be realized if he’s only good enough.
I never expected him to unplug even then, but to see the guy still grasping at Blue Pill ideals because he utterly has no other frame of reference put the totality of a Blue Pill existence into perspective for me. I’m all about guys spinning plates, enjoying more and better sex with them or their wives, and certainly about adopting an Alpha mindset and behaviors that facilitate doing that, but it’s important to also remember that the importance of a Red Pill awareness has much broader implications. It can literally save your life.
Anyone wondering why I have a problem with purple pill advocates pandering to the sensibilities of their majority female readership (i.e. clients) by encouraging Blue Pill half-measures to men’s lives should keep that in mind.
When you become Red Pill aware you become more conscious of how the conditioning of a Blue Pill mindset predisposes men to frustration because Blue Pill idealism is really unattainable by design. You also become aware of how dangerous that frustration has the potential to be for men who can neither handle the Red Pill truth nor the constant measuring and failure to achieve Blue Pill goal-states he’s been conditioned to believe are attainable, and other men have.
That frustration can be dangerous to both himself and others, but that’s in the now. Precious few men in the ‘sphere consider the long-term consequences of the life of a man immersed in Blue Pill idealism, responsibility and promises that keep him grinding on until he’s reached the end of his usefulness to the Feminine Imperative.
“He was never much of a man…”
Since I started writing on SoSuave, and especially more now that I’ve detailed Open Hypergamy, I’ve had many guys relate a similar story about how their grandmother, mother or mother-in-law had just openly told him or his wife that her husband was never “much of a man”.
These women are all in their late 70s to early 80s and it’s like at that point all bets are off and what do they really have to lose by letting their daughters and granddaughters in on grandma’s words of warning about “settling” on a man? I’ve even had women readers relate how their own mothers confessed that there was a “just part of her she just could never share with a man like her father.”
These Alpha Widow confessions usually came after her husband was in the ground or had been delivered to the assisted living facility and too far gone to really register the gravity of her real estimate of him after living the better part of her life with him. The guys who relate these stories to me are Red Pill aware so their jaws dropping came with a little knowing expectation, but imagine how the Blue Pill husband of the daughter of one of these elderly women must process that confession. What mental contortions does a man need to do to fit that information into a Blue Pill mindset?
I think when a woman has nothing to really lose by copping to it is when they’re most comfortable with Open Hypergamy. This same comfort is becoming more common for younger women due to the social and personal security they’re ‘entitled’ to now, but for women who don’t really feel that security has solidified until their golden years this admonition and confession of Open Hypergamy almost seems like a relief to them. A relief in the hope that they’ve warned their daughters or granddaughters to opt for monogamy with an exciting Alpha lover/husband (no matter how perceptual) rather than regretting the ‘safe bet’ she made by settling on her Plan B man, her Beta-dependable husband she conveniently ‘found’ in her Epiphany Phase.
As women age towards their later years the urgency to warn younger generations of the sisterhood about the results of their hypergamous life decisions becomes more pressing. To be sure there’s a degree of desire to live vicariously through their daughter’s and granddaughter’s experiences, but more so this confession is for their own need of closure – a final coming clean about what was really influencing those past decisions and living (or not) with them. There comes a point when admitting the ugly truth feels better than worrying over keeping up the pretense of concern.
Far too many Blue Pill men (even young men) are terrified of living the life of the lonely old man. They imagine that if they don’t comply with the Feminine Imperative’s preset relational context of women that they’ll live lives of quiet desperation. I outlined this in the Myth of the Lonely Old Man – the threat point is one where men are encouraged to believe that if they don’t comply with women’s relational primacy they’ll endure a life of decaying loneliness into old age, unloved and devoid of children who’ll comfort them bedside as they peacefully pass into the next life.
What these Blue Pill men fail to realize is this is simply one more part of the feminine-primary fantasy they’re condition for. Do a Google image search for “end of life issues”, see all of those pictures of grandpa holding hands with wife and family in a clean comforting hospice bed saying his last goodbyes before he passes on? That advertising is the Blue Pill fantasy. In all likelihood you’ll die in an elderly care home, from lung fluid buildup, in the middle of the night with no one around or a complete stranger in the bed next to you. I understand that’s a depressing thought, but the truth of it is you’ll really have no influence in deciding how you’re going out at that stage, and hopefully that wakes you up about living a Blue Pill existence based on fear, compliance and appeasement till death do you part.
Put that into perspective with a man who wakes up to his conditions.
Die Alpha
Now before I get the predictable “not with my grandpa” stories, let me just say that you’ve got to put the generational differences into perspective.
When I published Empathy I figured I’d get some backlash from women in the oversimplified binaries I’ve come to expect. So before those same sputterings arise let me unequivocally footnote here that women are absolutely capable of a learned empathy and sympathy for men. However those sympathies, like genuine desire, cannot be negotiated for. Whatever your misguided concept is about how Relational Equity should merit a woman’s sympathy or respect, those are only valid and genuine when a woman freely gives them to a man she perceives as Alpha, never as something he’s due.
In every story you’ll hear about how the wife, kids and grandkids gathered around the family patriarch in the hours before he passed, understand that he was in all likelihood a respected dominant Alpha for most of his life. I want to add a bit of balance to the Blue Pill elderly I described this week, so let me also say I’ve known a handful of Men who died Alpha. These are the Men for whom a widow and his kids honor his memory once a year. They go to the gravesite because he was worth the cost of putting him in the ground instead of a cheap cremation.
February 20th, 2015 at 10:03 pm
@SilvrBkFebruary 20th, 2015 at 9:29 pm
I wonder that even after this, how can you be not against monogamy? I know that you advocate men not making monogamy their ultimate goal, but if this is the level of empathy (or lack of it) on the other side, why not go the other way altogether? What should the man then do, after his SMV declines beyond his peak (say at 39)?
There are unicorns out there. Some of us managed to lock down a 25 year old woman that was good. And managed not to not F**k up the relationship.
But every decade in America brings a decline where in the old days those good women exist and each decade, not so much any more.
In the 70’s, my profession (physician) had a 90% satisfaction rate among practitioners. It deteriorated over the decades through the 80’s, 90’s and 00’s so it’s down to 10% these days. Things degenerate. We live in an Idiocracy. “Why come you have no tattoo?” I would think that the 00’s men’s generation has a 10% satisfaction rate with their women peers.
But that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t be the best you can be.
Civilization was once great and then declined. A historical anomaly? I think not. It happens.
February 20th, 2015 at 10:24 pm
Memento mori ‘remember (that you have) to die': I plan on going through all the Kubler Ross stages at the end of my life in 12 hours. The five stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.
This includes a possible Aaron Clarey’s suggestion at the end of life.
As a physician , I see it all the time. Bad shit happens to random people all the time. As a wildlife enthusiast, I see that the best way to avoid the grave is be adaptable. Very adaptable. Female deer move on when their offspring are harvested. And they have not a concern in the world if their alpha male is harvested. He’s only there for himself and himself alone.
[IMG]http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y220/Derm95/hi-res-randoms-23.jpg[/IMG]
February 20th, 2015 at 10:25 pm
https://thechive.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/hi-res-randoms-23.jpg?w=920&h=704
February 20th, 2015 at 10:27 pm
Tilikum,
To be fair to us recovering betas, there is a turnover in the commentariat. And a few of us transition from bitching and seeking advice to giving it in return.
If I wrote everything I thought during my early RP days, there would be a lot of Forge the Sky beta bullshit out there.
But I agree with your overall astonishment. Rollo does seem to have a remarkable forbearance, and a passion for teaching.
Also, FWIW, I’ve read around for a while and your comments have a vibe of unreconstructed intellectual alpha. Purpose and clarity. That’s been helpful to me, thank you.
February 20th, 2015 at 10:35 pm
” …your comments have a vibe of unreconstructed intellectual alpha. Purpose and clarity. ”
Yes.
February 20th, 2015 at 11:02 pm
@ YaReally
It is a hypnosis/NLP idea. It is the use of suggestion to change people’s attributions about their perceptions. Essentially, we take in way too much information through our perceptions and only pay attention to a small fraction of it. What we attend to, comprehend, and attribute from that information is based on our beliefs.
Given that, it is possible to use suggestions to influence a person’s beliefs and literally change what they see. That is how hypnotists get people to think another person is invisible (negative hallucination) or see an animal that is not really there (positive hallucination). Something far more plausible and similar to actual reality is even easier to manipulate. So, changing a perception to “he caught me from falling”, from “we were making out”, is not a stretch. Add in the fact that the person is highly motivated to NOT see the truth (due to cognitive dissonance) and someone can literally be made to be “blind” to some really crazy stuff happening right in front of them.
February 20th, 2015 at 11:17 pm
I recently was looking for a new book to read on a work trip. I found what I thought would be a good Sci Fi/Action book: assassins – check; warriors – check, guns – check, technology – check. Born of Fury by Sherril Kenyon is ultimate expression of hypergamy/FI: male self-sacrifice, distain for beta men, woman in control of society, alpha male sexual appeal to women, women objectifying men, new man/new father for female’s kid, marrying up, et al. The book’s “marriage ritual” I found particularly offensive; it had the woman walking around the male as he was on his knees inspecting him. It justified violence against males by females because males are bigger and can take it. The book is disgusting and was so disrespectful to men it turned my stomach. It was the ultimate confirmation of theories contained in The Rational Male blog and the like are accurate.
I have always found a dissonance between what women say and what they do. But I could never really put my finger on it. The Rational Male and other blogs have helped me put a name on it and now I see the theories in all aspects of life in the US. At times, it is disappointing knowing that the male Romantic Dream is unattainable for most men/me under the current social construct in the US. At other times, sex is easy to get and good so who cares. At the end of the day, life is more than just plate spinning and sex. It has been opined by some that of the two sexes, men are the only ones that can reach self-actualization. Men are the ones who move society forward; we can embrace a greater purpose and are the ones who can reach a state of true rationality and morality. I believe I have a higher purpose then just sex and notches on a bedpost.
February 21st, 2015 at 12:22 am
Here’s a common reaction from guy I talk about the Red Pill with:
“Yah, but I already do all those things…IF I wasn’t already married, I’d be banging everything that moves”… This from a guy who had a nervous breakdown because his wife left him after he was out late continually and not paying enough attention to her….
There’s always an excuse not to do the thing that’s hardest to do. The work that goes into transforming after unplugging is so hard that at times I’ve longed for the comfort of my naivete: I should just xyz and that girl will like me… It’s like by DOING something FOR her I would get a result…
Now the mindset is if I DO something for myself…I will feel much better about myself.
February 21st, 2015 at 2:03 am
“As women age towards their later years the urgency to warn younger generations of the sisterhood about the results of their hypergamous life decisions becomes more pressing. To be sure there’s a degree of desire to live vicariously through their daughter’s and granddaughter’s experiences, but more so this confession is for their own need of closure – a final coming clean about what was really influencing those past decisions and living (or not) with them
. There comes a point when admitting the ugly truth feels better than worrying over keeping up the pretense of concern.”
What about their boys!
Those women become the crazy mother-in laws who are torn between the daughter in law and the beloved son!
That is the PROOF of the mother in law VS the daughter in law animosity!?. It takes one to know one, no?
The saying that goes:
It takes a woman 30 years to make a man out of her son and another 5 minutes to make a fool out of him.
This is another conflicting nature of woman .
They are conflicted how to tell about hypergamy to their own sons.
“Anyone wondering why I have a problem with purple pill advocates pandering to the sensibilities of their majority female readership (i.e. clients) by encouraging Blue Pill half-measures to men’s lives should keep that in mind.”
Yeah…..tell me about it.
Those are the wimps who are still terrified of being without a pussy – I mean clients -.
Great post Rollo.
February 21st, 2015 at 2:14 am
From the text: “let me unequivocally footnote here that women are absolutely capable of a learned empathy and sympathy for men. However those sympathies, like genuine desire, cannot be negotiated for. Whatever your misguided concept is about how Relational Equity should merit a woman’s sympathy or respect, those are only valid and genuine when a woman freely gives them to a man she perceives as Alpha, never as something he’s due.”
Seems a self-defeating statement to me.
Ok, so it doesn’t count and it is no real, solid sympathy or empathy at all.
Because random, unrealiable wishy-washy-feelings that are in their core based on the genitals’ reaction is wothless. Of coruse an alpha is more tahn just sexual appeal or perfromance – but in the core and in female eyes, it’s all about that.
Rest of the text: I agree very much.
Dying is messy, disgusting and always shitty – that’s why every living creature tries to avoid dying as much as possible. ;-)
Again, there is freedom in absolutes:
1) Everybody dies eventually
2) Dying is not “peaceful” or anything like that (exceptions may exist – they prove the general rule)
so:
3) Life your life to the fullest and be ware of yourself and your goals – because at the END, you are the only person who really cares.
February 21st, 2015 at 5:23 am
@anon
As far as I am able to gather, friend, I have no answers to your question. Truly. I do what I can, in my own small way. I trust others to do what they can, in their own small way. I’m not sure that much more can be asked than that. The indisputable answer is that we must unite to purge these toxins from our body culture. That is a tall order to request, which is exactly what they exploit against us. Sorry, no answers from these quarters, I’m a simple foot soldier, along with the rest of you. This is why I say, repeatedly, that this is ultimately a spiritual issue. It is my belief that only when we change inside ourselves, that we can even begin to combat this onslaught. Else, we are fighting on their battlefield. The spiritual realm is where we reign, but that is a difficult concept to get across to others. I think that this fight has been going on for thousands of years, so who the fuck am I to propose an answer to it?
I can only share this from my own personal life experience: the minute that I chose to live a spiritual life, everything became MUCH more difficult, overnight. I watched all of my friends who chose to “go along” with the system achieve wild success in their careers (doing some unsavory shit). Also overnight, I watched my own terrestrial life go into the shitter. (After all, isn’t that what all the great spiritual texts say is exactly what will happen?) And it makes sense, once one understands how the “actual” world is structured. For me, at least, learning how the “real world” works, is the exact thing that awakened my own spirituality. (I forever thank my Creator for that.) I would never preach it on anyone… because it is motherfucking difficult, and who the fuck am I?
I have recently come across some folks who are quite literally living in the kingdom of God—in the most hard core sense of that concept (180 degrees from your typical “churchgoing” folk). And they really are living in the kingdom of God—it’s totally obvious to any critical observer. I watch them from afar, somewhat discombobulated, and I think, “Well, damn, look how easy that guy’s life is.” To speak to you guys intimately, I’m not there yet. I’m just not. There are certain hurdles that my brain simply cannot leap. And yet, I look at this one guy, in particular, LIVING the most hard core spiritual life (Christian in flavor) that I could ever imagine. Like really living it; faith, I’m talking. And I ask myself, “Why can’t I be like that?” The answer is real fucking simple: I don’t have his faith. Believe me, I wish I did. However, my rational mind gets in the way.
There, I just laid myself bare for the gallery. Rip away.
At the end of the day, the only thing that I know with any certainty is this: I did not cave, and I never will.
February 21st, 2015 at 9:04 am
@ Yareally
A guy can SEE his girlfriend/wife make out with me or voluntarily give me her number and if he’s fully invested in the Blue Pill he will convince himself that he didn’t see anything.
Cosign. I’m not actively gaming women when I’m out, but women with partners still come onto me and I see some of these same things. One drunk broad was sitting with a man and I asked her to dance, not realizing that she was drunk. No obvious clues. Once on the dance floor, it was obvious. When we were finished dancing, she grabbed my hand and hugged it to her tit. I was worried about her man wanting to fight, but he acted like he didn’t see it.
Another (married) woman gave me her number on some pretext, right in front of her husband and my wife. They are in my social circle and maybe that’s not a big deal any more? She has always been sweet to me, sharing wine, looking to help me with a problem, etc.
February 21st, 2015 at 9:10 am
There is a concept, called an “epistemic crisis”, that can lead to abandoning deeply held beliefs. Maybe Dr. J can address that. It might be useful in formulating a plan of discussion to get Blue Pill men to abandon the BP.
February 21st, 2015 at 9:27 am
I work with a form of NLP/hypnosis. I just had a client the other night and we worked through an extremely traumatic memory with very good results. My belief is that memories buried alive never die. Flipping the representation of a memory, i.e. changing a memory, after confronting the reality of it, is a key distinction from denial of a memory.
When I work with people I have them fully associate to the exact memories they’re trying to run away from. I worked with one person recently whose girlfriend cheated on him. He didn’t see anything happen, but I asked him if he could see her with that guy in his mind — and he said yes. He didn’t see anything happen, but he knew she cheated on him, and he had an internal representation of how it happened, complete with pictures, sounds, and all the painful emotions he felt that went along with it. He never even saw the guy. His mind made up all the pictures and sounds to fill in the gaps; it was all an internal representation of the distress and despair he was experiencing as a result of her cheating on him.
Going where you don’t want to go, what you’re trying to run away from, is the key to healing.
If I was working with someone desperately clinging to the Blue Pill, I would ask them what their worst feelings were, and how they knew they were there; what they were seeing or hearing in their mind, feeling in their body, etc. They describe what they’re feeling, and we start clearing the bits and pieces out one by one; and as we do that, more layers unfold. The goal is to get to the point where they can think of something that used to bother them, and they can’t make it bother them anymore. And it’s an amazing thing when that happens. Starting out at a SUDS rating of 10 for emotional distress associated with a memory, then getting it down to a 0, and the most important part — re-imprinting something positive and self-empowering once all of the negative emotions have been pulled out of the memory. The crazy thing is as the emotional intensity drops, the pictures in people’s minds actually start to change. And by the end you have something completely different than what you started with. It doesn’t make people stupid or make them forget — they still know that whatever it was really happened to them — it’s just that it no longer has an emotional charge; it’s no longer driving their car.
People don’t accept TRP because they’re experts at denial and escapism. They’re successfully denying reality and successfully creating escapist thoughts and behaviors. When you pull the emotions out of the memories they’re trying to run away from, all of a sudden there’s no need to escape. That’s when the denial/escapism programs start to crumble into dust, when we can re-imprint a new belief system where the denial/escapism ‘program’ is obsolete. But as long as there are bad memories that are creating bad feelings, the old program will ring up as valid, because people are trying to protect themselves. Even if the program is killing them, they’ll use it if that’s all they have available.
All of this is extremely relevant with TRP. Experiences with women, for most guys, are extremely emotionally charged. Whether it’s a memory of an actual experience, or just imagining a worst case scenario, like imagining your wife cheating on you or saying degrading things about you behind your back — when you “go there” and step into those memories or those fantasies, and notice how they bother you, and start cleaning it all up, until you get to the point where you can imagine or remember these things and they no longer bother you — that’s when the major changes in attitude and behavior happen.
That’s also when people are receptive to new ideas. Because all of a sudden your hands are free; you’re not holding onto all this old stuff anymore. It’s just like the old Zen example of a teacher filling a student’s cup with tea until it starts overflowing and going all over the table. The student cries out “Stop! What are you doing? Can’t you see the cup is full already?” And the teacher replies, “Your mind is like this cup. You come and ask for teaching, but your cup is full. I can’t put anything in. Before I can teach you, you’ll have to empty your cup.”
People are full of memories that prove that the current belief systems they have are good for them, even if those belief systems (like the Blue Pill) are killing them. When you start knocking out the ‘proof’, the beliefs start to crumble, and you make room for new, healthier beliefs.
TRP has only started sinking in for me as I’ve worked on myself and started clearing out all my resentment of women, and also my hopelessness attached to them. I was a very, very angry person when I first started reading here. And I distinctly remember having tons of rage against women I liked when I was younger because they wouldn’t reciprocate. I didn’t understand why, I thought I was doing everything right, and it was infuriating. The sense of hopelessness and frustration was too great to put into words.
That feels like ancient history now. Over time as I’ve worked on myself, in tandem with keeping up with this blog, I’ve been coming to a greater and greater feeling of peace. But I can still remember that I operated from a Blue Pill mindset and the complete and utter turmoil it caused me on a daily basis.
I’m still struggling with using porn as a buffer against rejection. I’ve gotten rid of just about all of my anger against women, but I’m still holding onto fear and the belief that it’s safer/better to use porn than to be with real women. The ONE-itis is gone, the feelings of hopelessness about never finding “the one” are gone. But I’m avoiding pursuing casual sex and have just been avoiding women in general, especially since last month when the whole thing with the married woman online blew up in my face. So I have some homework to do: revisiting the memories of the few experiences I have had with women, and clearing out all the negatives. While also working through my resistance to TRP – what BP stuff am I still holding onto?
And also, how am I treating myself? Isn’t it a form of disrespecting myself and beating myself up to avoid sex? “Accepting” that I’m never going to have sex for the rest of my life or have anything to do with women? Isn’t that an unnecessary form of punishing myself? I don’t think it’s my ‘anger’ about hypergamy, or my ‘disgust’ with women that’s keeping me from pursuing even just casual sex. I think it’s beliefs about myself, and my self-perception, that’s keeping me from it.
I think I still have remnants of Blue Pill shame, and it’s not that I’m disgusted with women — it’s that I’m disgusted with MYSELF. Blue Pill anyone? Male shaming? I feel disgusting and ashamed for wanting to pursue casual sex. So there could be remnants of that program running in the background. See: Don Juan and all the other movies shaming male sexuality. When I go on porn, I get to look at hundreds of different beautiful women and enjoy all of them without feeling guilty at all. In reality I’d love to sleep with a bunch of different beautiful women, but deep down the program of shame is still running.
Having the presence of mind to realize that this feeling of disgust is just a feeling, and that I have memories to support this feeling, and if I make peace with those memories and let them go, the unnecessary shame will go too, is a big deal. If you’re not aware that it’s basically all made up in your mind, you’re screwed.
If you really believe that you’re a bad person, and no one ever showed you that you’re not, or showed you ways that other people manipulated you and lied to you, and that your negative beliefs about yourself aren’t true…what else can you do?
That’s a huge part of the value of TRP: letting guys know they’re NOT CRAZY, and that the shame that’s being piled on them just for being men is not justified.
The real deal is imagining the worst case scenario, and clearing those feelings out. You can do this without ever mentioning or knowing about TRP too: just imagining, what if your dream of finding love never comes true? What if you never find your “One”? What’s the worst thing that’ll happen to you if you don’t find your “soul mate”? And saying you feel so lonely — how do you know you feel lonely? What are you feeling in your body, what are you seeing or hearing in your mind? As you imagine these things, you’ll notice pictures/sounds/feelings/etc. all kinds of things happening in your mind, and as you clear these things out, you’ll notice that your whole inner world starts to change.
Because all those things popping into our minds are the emotionally-charged PROOF that our beliefs are real. When you pull the emotions out, and suddenly there’s no proof, the belief turns to dust.
This is very deep work. TRP has been a huge help to me as far as stirring up bad memories and future worries goes. If you don’t know how to deal with this stuff, it feels like a curse. With the right skills and knowledge it’s possible to see them as a gift: an opportunity to heal. Because TRP isn’t hurting anyone — it’s people’s REACTIONS based on WHAT’S ALREADY INSIDE THEIR MINDS that’s hurting them.
It simply wakes people up to the fact that taking the Blue Pill is hurting them. And deep down they KNOW that, or else they wouldn’t get so riled up about the posts here.
Nobody wants to face the hurt and pain from realizing these things — or hurt and pain in general. That’s why people block out memories and go into denial. But the only way to clear this stuff out is to GO THERE with the right skills and make peace with it.
As long as guys feel like there is some benefit to be had from clinging to the Blue Pill, they’ll hold onto it. It’s just the structure of problems. Even if a pattern of behavior is killing us, if it’s all we know, it’s what we’ll use.
Keeping in mind, of course, that people only hold onto something because on the deepest level, it’s trying to protect them. Again, even if it’s killing them — like me with only wanting to go on porn and avoiding women.
Why do I do it? Because it’s protecting me. Buffer against rejection. I don’t think porn is bad at all. But I do think that going on porn for the sole reason that you believe it’s your ONLY OPTION for sex is bad, which is where I’m at. There’s a huge debate about porn addiction, but in my personal experience, the main problem is using porn as a buffer against rejection. Including passionless marriages or LTR’s running on the Blue Pill, but the guy is unaware of what’s going on, and feels sexually frustrated but doesn’t know what to do.
But again: why am I defaulting to it? Because I’ve done it for years. I know how to use it to escape and ignore my issues. I had some bad experiences with women. How do I know they were bad experiences? And what am I so afraid about as far as “rejection” goes? How do I know I’m afraid of rejection? What’s my resistance to pursuing casual sex? How do I know that I can’t pursue it? What are my beliefs about why I can’t pursue it? What proof do I have?
That’s the kind of stuff to start knocking out and cleaning up. The Blue Pill isn’t just an ideology; it gets into guys’ heads and they spend YEARS operating with these behaviors, and form all kinds of habits. Years. So there are lots of memories there to go through and clean up.
It seems like enough to make your head spin, but it isn’t that complicated. The simple reality is we don’t want to face our demons, but if we don’t, they’ll keep pulling the strings and we’ll be playing the puppet.
February 21st, 2015 at 9:40 am
@ Forge the Sky and sjfrellc
Thanks.
Perhaps interestingly, attractive women and mating rights have never been an issue. Three sons, spaced way out (over 20, under 10, new) three different moms. The moms and sons get comments on good looks to this day.
Instead, the challenge for my life has been staying out of the view of society and sequestering myself to avoid haters. Its a true statement that Betas will team up on an Alpha, and no amount of female accommodation will move those Betas off of their goal of assuring their paternity. I don’t blame them.
So, I live on property at the outskirts of a large city among other strong men, and teach my sons to “render onto Caesar” lest they get rendered, make enough money for comfort, but not enough to get noticed by…anyone….and procreate. The corporate world is long behind me after a couple 2 year stints.
Much luck to you.
February 21st, 2015 at 9:49 am
Hi all. Been super busy with work – be careful what you set your sights at. I sought to build my business and tripled it, but am working full out. Actually, let me start there, tangentially if you will. I realized recently that I hadn’t actually given my work my “all” in a long time. Without realizing it, the sense of futility that I felt but denied and fought for decades had seeped into my work life deeply. As a true-Blue Piller, I took on my career in IT sales and marketing as a means to being a good father, husband, provider and man. While my divorce 20 years ago snatched that dream from me, I clung to a shadow of it with my daughter until that was shattered for me too a few years ago. My reasons for work just melted away. It affected my ambition and entire orientation towards work and money. It didn’t happen all at once, but wow, the cumulative cynicism and disengagement from my work became really noticeable after I digested the Red Pill. I had failed by my internalized Blue Pill standards.
Now I work for me. And as I wake up more and more, I’m bringing a self-centeredness to my business in a way I never have been able to do before. Example. I fired two clients who were not good investments for me and I brought on much better ones who tripled my cash flow. I realized I had signed the two crappy clients out of fear and desperation. I also turned a job opportunity into a client because I started to have real concerns about the leadership of the company, so instead I consult to them while servicing other clients and figure out what they are all about. When I think first and last about what I want and need and can do and my value etc, well, I take very different actions. I also have to work like crazy to deliver but I’m enjoying it. Exercising skills one has mastery with is quite enjoyable. One of the benefits of getting older is achieving mastery and now I’m using it so much more effectively.
But the road is not smooth, as those of you who’ve been watching me here surely already know. More on that in another comment.
February 21st, 2015 at 9:54 am
“There, I just laid myself bare for the gallery. Rip away.”
Ah, yes. The ascetic –characterized by or suggesting the practice of severe self-discipline and abstention from all forms of indulgence, typically for religious reasons– good man. A surrogate behavior for an alpha tribal male in today’s society when you have no lands to settle or no one to fight.
February 21st, 2015 at 10:15 am
Glenn “Exercising skills one has mastery with is quite enjoyable. One of the benefits of getting older is achieving mastery and now I’m using it so much more effectively.”
I like mastery too. Makes tasks easier. Sometimes it makes things effortless.
February 21st, 2015 at 11:32 am
Blue Pill programming goes so deep. I think it makes men see themselves through harsh utilitarian contexts as human beings. Rollo talks about “the burden of performance” and every man knows he’s right. But consider what the contest looks like when one is still Blue Pill? Performance then was serving others (and perhaps then acting out irresponsibly in fits and spurts), but as that game was essentially changed underneath our feet while we were playing it, we didn’t adapt. Many of us found ourselves in a game that was unwinnable. The epic sadness and existential rending of one’s very identity brought on by being on this hamster wheel to nowhere grinds many men to dust. It certainly chewed up a good chunk of my ass. At a basic level in the Blue Pill world I was destined to be miserable. And also to know that I shouldn’t talk about it. Fuck that.
The only useful question is what can I do about it? I have been musing about this for a couple of months as my emotions have been spiraling and banging around from pillar to post. I attribute that to a new level of Red Pill clarity in the sense of seeing the sexual marketplace so clearly due to my observing women closely. The world simply isn’t what I thought it was and I just found this so jarring and upsetting at a basic visceral level and couldn’t handle it.
But now I’m catching myself, and am doing so by asking myself “What serves me?” And I see that most of all, I must be compassionate with myself. I also see how harsh I am to myself all the time. I catch my internal dialog now and realize how fucking messed up it is. There is a level of fear and desperation and anger in it that I think come from a life of Blue Pill frustration and inchoate rage/sadness/desolation. In my case, the early history of abuse I suffered certainly is at play but I think that’s not all that’s going on with me. I think at a very basic level I’ve supplicated myself as way of “winning/performing” in the Blue Pill game, and simply gave into the beatings whether administered externally or by my own hand. I function based on restraining and denying myself, and also by punishing myself – and by rewarding myself and feeling guilty afterwards. If I’m not a “good boy”, I”m a “bad boy”.
Fuck that. It’s very challenging though. A lifetime of bashing myself, and now aged 52, well let’s just say that my progress is not linear, lol. But it is palpable. It’s still like that game of whack a mole though, and in my case I’ve backslid on my physical/workout regimen and have gained back a few pounds. Nothing a month of discipline won’t right, but still, I feel like I’m working out so many basic things about how to perform well at work that everything else just fell out of my frame. And I’ve been beating the shit out of myself for doing so.
Compassion for me is my new mental point of origin. I’ve been just catching myself and recentering my focus on being compassionate towards myself many, many times a day now. I’ve started asking myself what I can do for myself to really develop/improve in ways that matter to me? Not by some external Blue Pill tape in my head, but based on my dreams and ideas. The answers reveal how out of step my own actions are with living the life I dream of.
Fuck that. And no matter the age, one can adopt a selfish, self centered approach to life. It’s hard, and the instincts in many ways may never be fully overcome, so what? That means I just give up, do another bong hit and escape into fantasyworld? Nah, not me. Not in this life. Not in my life. I will not continue to abuse myself!
The Blue Pill enforces a kind of alienation from one’s own self for men. Our natures are not to be embraced, they are to be suppressed. Who I am isn’t innately good or worthy, it’s what I do that counts. And if I’m not winning I beat myself harder and harder and harder until, after decades, I wear myself down to a nub of a man. Cowed, bowed and beaten.
Fuck that. No more. I’m being compassionate and wise with myself first and last. Everyone else, well, you are just kind of whatever to me anymore. Lol, I’m just like the selfish, solipsistic, narcissists I used to hate and look down up on from my supposedly more moral perch. Oh well, if you can’t beat them, join them.
February 21st, 2015 at 11:40 am
@ Glenn
Lol, I’m just like the selfish, solipsistic, narcissists I used to hate and look down up on from my supposedly more moral perch. Oh well, if you can’t beat them, join them.
[Cue applause.] Welcome to the club!
February 21st, 2015 at 12:46 pm
I have a few thoughts about finding purpose, but no time to write atm. I recommend people read this though:
http://slatestarcodex.com/2013/07/17/who-by-very-slow-decay/
Written by a new physician about the horrors if dying in modern society, where we are sometimes capable of clinging to life far longer than it is enjoyable. It deals with end-of-life issues and suicide in a harrowing way.
February 21st, 2015 at 1:40 pm
Hi Rollo and to all the commenters in here.
Iam very happy and pleased to find this Blog and to know that there are other men who are thinking and “fighting” like me.
English is not my first language so iam always thankful for corrections!
@Rollo: This Post of you is, in my opinion, your best post so far.
As men we always have to ask ourselves what our real “purpose” in life is like. For me its clear that my “purpose” in life is certainly not to serve women or everything that comes with it. My Purpose is also not to serve society, because society is not serving me or men in general.
My purpose in life is ME!
I have read quiet long time this Blog and some other Blogs. And i never did understand why some Men use the red Pill “Wisdom” just for getting women!
What i know so far…what i have learned so far in this Blog is, that RP-Thinking is much much more than just to get women!
It is the key to understand how life and society is like and its the key to make yourself free…..free like independence in thinking. And thats for me the biggest gift Rollo is given us in this Blog. Thank you very much for this, Rollo.
Rollo, its my first Comment today. I have read all your Posts so far.
Iam 36 ( never been married) and i really know now how things are working. Until last year it just has been a vague understanding!
Waiting for your next posts! ;-)
February 21st, 2015 at 1:41 pm
@Born: “The longer a man waits to take the RP the harder and more dangerous it becomes. If your in your 20’s and 30’s, its probably the prime time to accept RP tenants, but when your in your 40’s and 50’s, especially if your married with kids, its too late.”
Dead wrong. We deal with guys all the time in /r/marriedredpill who are that age and they uniformly report a significant improvement in their lives and marriages when they unplug. 40’s and 50’s is absolutely NOT to old to unplug. 70’s and married to a BPD woman for 55 years is probably to late, but 40’s and 50’s guys who are married with children can unplug with a great deal of success.
February 21st, 2015 at 2:02 pm
@chocdoc,
Thanks for that, welcome.
February 21st, 2015 at 2:22 pm
@gregg
Love your writing, gregg. Your words deeply resonate with my own thoughts and experiences. Here my impression of MGTOW. I’ve posted this already, in one form or another, on several sites geared towards men’s issues. Would be interested in your opinion.
———————————————
If we were talking about anything else that had a 50% failure rate, the fallout of which disproportionately destroyed women’s lives, no one would have a problem with women opting out of whatever that thing was. But – because it’s men’s lives that are disproportionately destroyed, no matter the failure rate, men are whiny, misogynistic, cowardly, and bigoted towards women.
That’s where MGTOW comes in. You can break MGTOW into all the different pieces you want, but it all comes down to the same thing with you folks and your ‘analysis’. What’s that? Hypocrisy and double standards. You hate MGTOW. You fear MGTOW. Why? MGTOW represent an existential threat to the status quo.
You will find hate for women within MGTOW. You will also find many women that hate men. The question is why.
As with most women, a man bitten is going to hate that which bit him. How long that hate lasts varies from person to person. The MGTOW mindset has a tendency to free men from their hate. How? By removing the illusions and enchantments regarding women. It’s the expectations men have of women that cause the hate. Once you see women for what they are – just as capable of deep betrayal, deceit and cruelty as any man – the hate dissipates. Women are not special beings incapable of causing great harm to others.
Men who believe women to be special beings – better than men – are at most risk for misplaced hatred. Men that need women to prop up their self-esteem and egos to be mentally healthy are in serious need of psychological help (think Elliot Rodger/PUAs).
Feminists have done more to free men from the bane of their existence – the traditional male role – than any other group. The problem with feminism is that it wildly overshot equality and morphed into the new bane of male existence. Feminists, anti-feminists, white knights, tradcons and MRAs all work to continue the subjugation of men. They differ only in the way they implement the subjugation and their angle of attack.
The rape stats are false. The wage gap stats are false. The DV stats are false. Men contribute the majority of taxes and women consume the majority of federal funding. There’s even talk about giving women a premium in social security. Men pay the majority of taxes and live shorter lives, but the PTB want to give women more social security. Women have always been the privileged class. The vast majority of men have always been the disposable class.
Gynocentrism has run amok. Misandry has run amok. MGTOW don’t want a better seat at the slave table. MGTOW understand that MRAs, feminists, anti-feminists, white knights and tradcons hope to mold men into whatever best suits their particular group’s goals. Its plain old brainwashing and social engineering. MGTOW see through this. To get elected and re-elected, male government leaders are throwing men under the bus by pandering to women for their votes. Women manipulate powerful men – with threatpoint – to implement policies and laws that discriminate against men and work in favor of women in education, health and welfare.
MGTOW understand how false rape, DV, sexual assault, molestation and harassment claims can destroy their lives. MGTOW are fully aware of how wildly the statistics regarding false rape, DV, sexual assault, molestation and harassment have been falsified. They also understand why. The President of the United States knows the stats are false. The colleges know the stats are false. The feminists know the stats are false. Congress knows the stats are false. So why do they all keep using the false stats? It’s not too hard to figure out.
MGTOW want no part of feminism, anti-feminism, men’s rights activism, white knighting or traditional conservative beliefs. MGTOW understand how marriage and family can destroy their lives. Through marriage and family, tens upon tens of millions of men’s lives have been destroyed in the past 40+ years, which has resulted in hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of male suicides. MGTOW want no part in traditional male roles. MGTOW want no part in the feminist definition of manhood either.
MGTOW see through the illusions, enchantments and brainwashing. MGTOW understand that women aren’t sugar and spice and everything nice. MGTOW see through the BS that society feeds men regarding women.
MGTOW is about not needing women in your life to be happy and healthy. MGTOW is about recognizing that women are fully capable of seriously damaging your life physically, psychologically, emotionally, legally, spiritually and financially. MGTOW is about limiting the power women have over men’s lives. MGTOW is about seeing women for what they are – not what women want you to believe they are. MGTOW is about freeing men of their obsession and addiction to women.
MGTOW seek their own sovereignty and freedom from male disposability.
MGTOW are women’s friends. We don’t want to own you. We don’t want to marry you. If you bring nothing to to table, then we don’t want to know you.
February 21st, 2015 at 3:14 pm
MGTOW is about neutering betas. I repeat myself.
MGTOW is about eliminating one’s gene’s from the gene pool.
MGTOW is about not having offspring.
MGTOW is about eliminating the human race by failing to reproduce.
MGTOW is about shaming alphas for behaving like men.
MGTOW is about making half of the human race (women) invisible.
MGTOW is about species death and giving up the struggle to reproduce.
MGTOW is for losers.
February 21st, 2015 at 3:37 pm
Theadsgamer- lol. I’m not a mgtow, but I do respect what they have to say alot. I guess I take whats salient to me about all aspects of the manosphere- RP, PUA, MRA and even MGTOW.
I think maybe you are a bit too harsh here. Lots of mgtow do get laid and many even had kids already, so for them that is not an issue anymore. Secondly, I’ve gotten laid a hell of alot and have no children, and to be honest, I would only consider having them with a woman in a third world country and NOT bring her here! lol. I’ve have seen so many men laid low and screwed by the court induced slavery because they just had to have the kids. They get their earnings slashed, not considering what they have to pay out of pocket that “doesn’t count” all for a woman who pockets most of it and kids the guys rarely get to see who end up calling mommies new bf “daddy”.
Fuck that. MGTOW or not, having kids is a surefire way to hand over your destiny and your nuts to a woman. I see it as a form of state sanctioned cuckoldry to be honest.
Having said all that, I agree that mgtows really need to find a better way. Someone here recently posted a comment on how he just doesn’t want to be anything like the mgtows he see’s on youtube because they do tend to be pretty pathetic/super beta types. I had to agree wholeheartedly.
I think all the aspects of the manosphere have very salient things to contribute, I’m doing my best to synthesize them all into a coherent philosophy in my life. It’s not impossible to mix aspects of mgtow, pua, mra and rp.
The kid thing though- I really would like them, but really have never trusted a woman- or the state- enough to hand over that much power over my life to them. It’s an issue.
February 21st, 2015 at 5:22 pm
I’ve have seen so many men laid low and screwed by the court induced slavery because they just had to have the kids.
You must choose well. And then master the situation. The rules are the same as they always were. The lay of the land is different.
====
Kids:
It is not a matter of trusting the woman or the state. Do you trust yourself?
February 21st, 2015 at 5:32 pm
@SeesMostTruth
“Men that need women to prop up their self-esteem and egos to be mentally healthy are in serious need of psychological help (think Elliot Rodger/PUAs).”
Elliot Rodger was anti-PUA and fucked in the head. PUA teaches men to base their self-worth internally, not to use women to prop up their self-esteem and egos. I’d be happy to link you to endless videos from PUAs on those subjects.
Understand that you are parroting an ignorant viewpoint based on a cartoon stereotype of what you’ve been told PUAs are (and PUA marketing is partly to blame for that) or minimal/misguided research on your end. I’m okay with that, you’re free to do as you like, but understand that you are wrong and clinging to that viewpoint will only hinder potential opportunities to expand your mind and view of the world.
As I wrote before:
” I actually respect MGTOWs for making an adamant choice. I may not agree with their choice but they’ve decided what’s important to them and what their value system is and I can respect that THEY made the choice rather than letting society make the choice for them (like the guy who’s socially pressured into marrying a chubby girlfriend).
But I also think MGTOWs have the same view of PUA that a guy like Steve has where it’s “this offends my sensibilities so I’m not even going to engage it!!” Part of that is PUA’s marketing etc. where it just seems sleazy, and a lot of bad PUAs are easy to spot (you can only really notice the BAD pickup, the good pickup just looks like cool guys getting laid and being social lol).
Either way their view of PUA seems to be that 1) a lot of it is faking who you are and supplicating to women, 2) too much to consume, too many tactics, concepts, routines, ideas, training, etc. which just results in seeing it as 3) too much work for not a good enough reward.
And I can totally understand that, I don’t fault them. Because I know they’re smart and have just been handed bad information about what PUA is. I have no doubt that a lot of MGTOWs, if they could be properly taught how simple PUA *CAN* be and how their MGTOW lives would look exactly the same except instead of callgirls they could invest in a simple half hour conversation with a girl and have a free regular fuckbuddy to bang and just keep her at an emotional distance and cut her off if she tries to bring any drama, and live exactly like they want to.
But when PUA is presented to them the way it is, it seems like too much hassle and too much pussy-begging. Then there are the more hardcore guys who are just done with interacting with women in general, whether they’ve been burned or not, but they’re just like it’s not worth even chancing that a girl at work is going to get pissed off or some girl you date will cry false rape etc. and give them a wide berth entirely and I can understand that too.
Really if MGTOW, TRP, Manosphere, MRA, and PUA all sat down and quit shitting on eachother, we’d all find out that a lot of our beliefs and attitudes overlap.”
I’d be happy to link some resources if you like. A dog is a fine pet as long as you understand it can bite you and you learn how to train/master it.
I really am thinking of writing something up for MGTOWs who don’t want to cut their dicks off. It’s silly to embrace the idea that “no one should have a dog because it might bite them” or “no one should go outside because a bear might eat them”. Just learn some basics to protect yourself and be aware of potential consequences and it’s fine lol
Sorry to clutter the comments with PUA hype Rollo, but all the RP/PUA/MGTOW/MRA/Manosphere/etc. hate for eachother is ridiculous and holding everyone back. Whether it’s a “you used the word beta, you just gave yourself away as one of those red pill retards, your opinion is dismissed” comment on reddit’s MensRights forum or a “PUAs are all pussy-beggars who need women for their self-esteem” comment on reddit’s Red Pill forum, it’s all such a waste of energy.
Study them all and there are massive core similarities in our philosophies. In the end we all want men to be free…it’s all of us VS the Feminist Imperative.
February 21st, 2015 at 5:38 pm
ChocDoc
February 21st, 2015 at 1:40 pm
The better you serve your customers the better you will do. To think you can avoid service is nuts. You can choose what service you provide. And the terms of service. But to think you can avoid it? Just what are you willing to give up?
And as theasdgamer so correctly points out – if you choose to avoid serving women and children, you will not be represented in the next generation. In the long run “I will not serve” is self correcting. We call it evolution.
The only question then is: “Will you be an Alpha server? Or a Beta server?” The Alphas get a better deal. More pussy. Submissive women.
February 21st, 2015 at 5:48 pm
Forge the Sky
February 21st, 2015 at 12:46 pm
You might like this:
http://reason.com/archives/2015/02/06/dying-and-in-denial
February 21st, 2015 at 5:59 pm
Glenn
February 21st, 2015 at 11:32 am
The epic sadness and existential rending of one’s very identity brought on by being on this hamster wheel to nowhere grinds many men to dust.
I always wanted to be the next Edison. And barring that his lab assistant (M. Simon in the Spencer Tracy movie – heh). Did I do it? Well in a very small way. I designed the I/O board that went in to the World’s First BBS. What is a BBS you ask? One of the precursors to the ‘net. Look it up.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_board_system
February 21st, 2015 at 6:18 pm
Although some would consider Transactional Analysis as unscientific psycho babble it’s interesting that the Drama Triangle (Persecutor, Rescuer, Victim complex) almost perfectly mirrors Blue Pill behaviour. I find it is a practical heuristic that helps to simplify the complexity of Evo Psych, FI, sexual biology and inter sexual behaviour.
Interestingly TA accepts that the ‘Rescuer’ complex is facilitated by mothers and involves promoting the child having no self worth outside of being validated externally by the Victim (typically the mother). Once the schema is internalised the individual is set on a life path of seeking validation ‘strokes’ externally by self sacrificing for others.
It’s interesting TA went out of fashion after the 70s, I guess the FI is too invested in the victim complex to allow men to free themselves from the rescuer paradigm.
February 21st, 2015 at 6:57 pm
@theasdgamer February 21st, 2015 at 3:14 pm
Wow , that’s a nice long list of ad hominem with no backup. Look at this list of losers who didn’t procreate:
Pierre Bayle
Robert Boyle
Johannes Brahms
Samuel Butler
Robert Burton
Ludwig van Beethoven
Johannes Brahms
Giacomo Casanova
Frederic Chopin
Nicolaus Copernicus
Eugène Delacroix
Rene Descartes
Gustave Flaubert
Galileo Galilei
Edward Gibbon
Vincent van Gogh
Oliver Goldsmith
Thomas Hobbes
Horace
David Hume
Washington Irving
Henry James
Franz Kafka
Immanuel Kant
Soren Kierkegaard
Charles Lamb
T. E. Lawrence
Meriwether Lewis
Philip Larkin
Gottfried Leibniz
John Locke
Michelangelo
Friedrich Nietzsche
Sir Isaac Newton
Blaise Pascal
Alexander Pope
Marcel Proust
Maurice Ravel
George Santayana
Jean Paul Sartre
Franz Schubert
Benedict de Spinoza
Arthur Schopenhauer
Herbert Spencer
Adam Smith
Stendhal
Jonathon Swift
Nikola Tesla
Henry David Thoreau
Henri De Toulouse-Lautrec
Leonardo da Vinci
Voltaire
Ludwig Wittgenstein
Heard of them? Admire any of them? I suggest taking @Hobbes view – in everything in life – knowledge can be attained from any source; even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day, but the real job is sorting the wheat from the chaff. Some MGTOW stuff will be crap, some PUA stuff will be. I agree with a lot of MGTOW personally, but I like getting my dick wet too. The manosphere has great resources in it – being a partisan limits oneself.
February 21st, 2015 at 7:06 pm
I apologise @theasdgamer – they are all bachelors – some who did and some who did not procreate. My point still stands.
February 21st, 2015 at 8:01 pm
Hypergamy doesn’t care what religion, race, or political stripe you identify with. Nor does the Red Pill, Blue Pill, or Purple Pill.
No man will never see clearly until he grasps this.
February 21st, 2015 at 8:43 pm
Q. what part of the manosphere said this recently:
“you have to have some sort of direction, some sort of north star you are headed for, and that’s your values and that’s what you stand for. You have to put that before her. As soon as you put her first she will resent you”
February 21st, 2015 at 8:57 pm
@ Hobbes – you and I think the same.
“They get their earnings slashed, not considering what they have to pay out of pocket that “doesn’t count” all for a woman who pockets most of it and kids the guys rarely get to see who end up calling mommies new bf “daddy”.
That there is the biggest fear to guys that got married and had kids in a bp context. It was for me. The thought of your ex shacking up with some other dude and having HIM become ‘new daddy’ is by far a bp guys worst nightmare. Not just because the bitch pulls the pin, but because your kids (at impressionable ages) will eventually bond with mommies new bf and they could potentially take on certain traits, beliefs or ideologies that don’t bode well with yours. Worst still, that your kids grow to love another male figure apart from you.
This is kind of happening in real-time to me as we speak. And I’m thankfully dealing with it RP aware. I employ many alpha traits in dealing with my ex, her beta bf, my kids, and those in my social circle.
I think if I was RP back then, and found a worthy mate for the long-term and had kids, that fear of losing your kids wouldn’t be so great. Yeah it still burns but at least knowing those bitter truths can somewhat insulate you from the hell a beta must endure going through the same thing – completely dazed and confused.
———————————————————————————————
again @ Hobbes
“I’m not a mgtow, but I do respect what they have to say alot. I guess I take whats salient to me about all aspects of the manosphere- RP, PUA, MRA and even MGTOW.”
@ YaReally – “Study them all and there are massive core similarities in our philosophies. In the end we all want men to be free…it’s all of us VS the Feminist Imperative.”
I’ve been RP now for a year. And in that year I’ve read all of RM (year 1,2,3 & archives), same with Chateau Heartiste, PUA stuff from Mystery Method, Bang & Day Bang by Roosh, YaReally’s achives, as well as reading some philosophy of MGTOW like Book of Pook & Bonecrker, & Wisdom of Zenpriest. Not to mention The Predatory Female by Rev. Lawrence Shannon & The Manipulated Man by Esther Vilar.
So I wholeheartedly agree there is massive crossover with all sub genres of Red Pill. I’ve chosen Rollo as my RP guide but I also read and respect others thoughts and opinion.
I guess it all depends on an individuals circumstances, period of life and goals as to what areas are more important of the ‘sphere to embrace.
I needed all the ‘sphere (the good bad & ugly) to be in the place I am now.
February 21st, 2015 at 10:32 pm
amancalledquint
February 21st, 2015 at 6:57 pm
Where would all those men be now had their fathers decided not to procreate? Non-existent.
You in fact owe your life to the sacrifice of others.
The burden too heavy for you? Put it down. Not strong enough to dominate a woman for 20, 30, 40, 50 years? Don’t even touch it. Women are not very interested in mating with weak men in any case.
My attitude? “Never tell me the odds.” For me? So far so good. 40+ years and counting. I did have the advantage of getting the beginnings of my RP education at age 18 from my first GF. Back in ’62.
February 21st, 2015 at 11:01 pm
Let’s assume for a second that all of the world’s great religions are just bullshit.
Fine.
We are still inextricably bound to the fact that free males want to be free, and that there are other males who incessantly seek to bind those free males into servitude. That is the inescapable history of the human species. That is the very Alpha/Beta premise that this very blog is founded upon.
So now let’s talk about the various operating system alternatives for the human brain:
– Islam – bow to Allah, your intermediary to the Alpha & Omega.
– Luciferinism – Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.
– Buddhism – nihilism, by definition, easy to sell that shit.
– Hinduism – you were born into your life situation—accept it and shut the fuck up.
– Talmudism – you and your tribe are G-d, over all other human beings.
– Nothing – nothing.
– Catholicism – your relationship to your Creator runs through Rome. Really?
– Christianity – your relationship with your Creator is yours, alone—no intermediary.
– Atheism – it’s not.
– Agnosticism – who knows?
– Science – professors dictate to you the meaning of your life.
– Paganism – you choose your own God.
– Satanism – up is down, right is wrong.
– Occultism – “hidden”, by definition.
Do you see the implications here, for your own personal selfish life considerations?
Look, I’m not preaching to you guys. I’m simply noodling, for myself, what makes sense—common sense.
So, what makes common sense? An operating system where I live by the code of some other human being? Or by the code whereby I live by my OWN PERSONAL spirituality, in concert with the deity of that thought?
From that list, only three stand out to me as viable options—Nothing, Christianity, and Paganism. Hard to get any traction with Nothing. To be totally transparent, Paganism seems to me to be the best option (libertarian). (My spirituality is actually that of the Vikings—every man places his faith in his own God.)
However, enter “network effects.” Network effects mean that you use something because the utility of using that thing is directly related to the others who also use that thing (Yellow Pages, Microsoft Word, email, FaceFuck, et al).
So, as awesome as Paganism is, and I’m an adherent, it simply doesn’t scale, because everyone is doing their own thing (which I find admirable, if not scalable). The others on the list are inherently parasitically cannibalistic, so they don’t scale, either. That leaves Christianity, a flawed operating system, to be sure. But it scales, witness Western Civilization.
This is pertinent to The Rational Male, because each of these operating systems has its own sub-routines for how to optimally handle females. So, which one you choose, if any, is going to play a major role in that.
I really have no point to this post other than to get people thinking: what operating system are you running on, and why? I’m genuinely curious.
February 21st, 2015 at 11:04 pm
Is MGTOW being stuck in the depression stage of RP process for some men?
Is it a Transactional Analysis game of Why Don’t You Yes But?
February 22nd, 2015 at 2:47 am
@Jack LeBear
MGTOW seems to me like it is made up of BOTH incel guys and guys who never find someone who will submit to them. Hence, you might be right to think they’re mostly depressed.
However, I think MGTOW is a cocoon that will actually hatch one day and make a new form of Intellectual Alpha self-expression for these guys.
They want to take the power back from women, and they know part of taking it back comes from limiting the options of women by spreading the knowledge of women and their hypergamous opportunism to as many men as possible and letting them make a new decision about how they see women going forward.
It’s like, women wont love you unless you’re alpha and have resources and status, etc. So, to men, who have to work hard just to be noticed, or just have the luck of being raised alpha and being born well-endowed and handsome, it doesn’t look anything like “love”.
And it just makes it worse for them when they keep seeing women who literally run from men who can see their prerogative for what it is.
“I like’em big and STUPID!”
February 22nd, 2015 at 3:01 am
“They go to the gravesite because he was worth the cost of putting him in the ground instead of a cheap cremation.”
Wow. Just wow.
This is heavy stuff.
Anyone grasp this?
It brings me back 15 years ago when I was screwing a single mom, I always noticed a capped vase while screwing in her living room, while in the act of ((viewer discretion advice))receiving a BJ……I asked her what is in the vase?
She turns and says ; that’s my mother’s ashes .
Anyone notice all those life insurance commercials showing a happy old man sitting beside his wife and saying how much he’s happy to leave his wife with (peace of mind) money after he’s gone, imagine if it was the other way?.
February 22nd, 2015 at 3:02 am
@yareally
“Study them all and there are massive core similarities in our philosophies. In the end we all want men to be FREE…it’s all of us VS the Feminist Imperative.!
THIS! Thisis basically all I am trying to say here. As a former divorce lawyer I can confirm that we are our own worst enemy. We are not sticking together. Politicians – MALES, manipulated by women, pass anti-male laws. Judges – MALES, sentence their brothers to jail for minor offences against women. Policemen – MEN – throw their brothers out of houses for false rape charges…etc.
There are still too many traitors that will literally kill other males, even their friends just to have a slim chance to get laid. WE can´t win that way.
Women on the other hand, they stick togethger. They stay on the side of any women in any case and defend her rights with a ferocity you wouldn´t believe – you can see it in courts. THEY STICK TOGETHER – therefore they are successful in their agenda…much more than we are.
Moreover, they conspire against males, keeping them in the dark as far as the nature of women and FI is concerned. You think they ..ehm.dooo not understand themselves? They do and much more than that, they understand the psychology of males, much more than majority of men.
They intentionaly prepare their sons for that role of a mindless slave to FI right from the cradle. Hubby, his father is practically silenced and he has no rights in this respect. Have you ever wondered why you fahter haven´t taught you anything pertaining to women? He must have known at least something…. so why he let you grow stupid? He was another slave of FI, he had to remain silent if he wanted to be allowed to be home.
If we want to conquer FI and rule women as a group, we have to stick togehther.
February 22nd, 2015 at 3:09 am
@YaReally
Hey bro could you do me a solid and point me to some useful PUA? I want something simple and effective to use. The shit I’ve bought over the years is essentially useless for my particular set of psychological attributes(abusive family/never really gave a fuck about society). I mean why call it game if it’s just advice on how to “improve” yourself to make yourself palatable to women? They’ve been exposed to be so different, yet so uncaring of what I am as long as I give them what they think they want. Why try so hard to model myself after an “alpha” yet never actually become the guy who does what he wants and wins anyway? Isn’t “alpha” just about living my life as I want while having a better arsenal than the next pickled penis?
You mentioned how “simple” PUA can be. I’m just working out and consuming volumes of Red Pill/MGTOW/MRA content. I haven’t left my house to go get pussy in years. I want to be a test subject for your theory of a blended Red Pill/MGTOW/Non-Tradcon guy. Please feel free to point the way to me.
February 22nd, 2015 at 3:26 am
@Glenn
Good to see you back in the saddle. Hoping I can get there soon myself.
February 22nd, 2015 at 3:30 am
Alpha male = who is the first among slaves.
February 22nd, 2015 at 7:00 am
“The better you serve your customers the better you will do. To think you can avoid service is nuts. You can choose what service you provide. And the terms of service. But to think you can avoid it? Just what are you willing to give up?
And as theasdgamer so correctly points out – if you choose to avoid serving women and children, you will not be represented in the next generation. In the long run “I will not serve” is self correcting. We call it evolution.
The only question then is: “Will you be an Alpha server? Or a Beta server?” The Alphas get a better deal. More pussy. Submissive women.”
@ M Simon:
I think i need to be more specific in here, because these are one of the harder things to get through in life.
As men its clear that we have to perform! Nobody can deny that.
But the crucial point is, what you, as a man, get back in return!
To be honest, this is what interest me the most.
Nowadays there is no glory, no honor or something like that left.
We all know that.
I have read many of your post and i agree to them in some points.
When i say, that i dont serve women, i mean that iam not willing to “give” anything without getting something back of the same value. Rather than using the word “serving”, i prefer the words “giving” and “getting”, because they are more precisely.
As we all know, women are gatekeepers of sex and men are gatekeepers of relationships. As i have to perform, as a man, to get sex or women in general…..it must be clear that the woman has to perform as well to get and maintain a realtionship with me.
And this is the crucial point of RP-Knowledge, that we learn and share here one Rollo’s Blog.
What i never understand is, why so many men “giving” women relationships when the women mostly don’t fulfill the requirements of the man. I know, we all are different, have different needs and so on, but i think you understand what i mean.
I have a son with my former girlfriend. I love my son, but i dont love the former girlfriend! She wanted to get married, but i have made clear that she doesnt fullfill my requirements to get the status “Wife of me”.
I pay childsupport for my son ONLY and i do that gladly. We spent much time together and he will get a high RP-Dose from me…thats for sure!
It is important for a man to get children. But as times getting crazy, every man must know how to handle himself in these days to get what he wants!
And this means not to marry women without making sure that she is fulfilling your requirements…whatever they are, but damn..she must FULFILL your requirements !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
We came here to this Blog for different reasons, but i think one the main reasons are, that the proportion between the sexes are completely out of business. (Don’t know if that is proper english!)
One the one hand you have the famales nowadays who want much and dont give back anything of value in return..or in most cases dont give back anything at all….lol
And to make it clear here….when a woman is saying to you, that she gives you children as a reply to that, i must say that this is not a proper answer, because that is what a woman is naturally desinged for. That answer doesn’t count for me.
You as a man you have to perform to get anything in life. And that is good and right.
But iam not willing to spent my ressources without getting good dividend back. Thats where RP-Knowledge is needed for a man.
You talk much about dominance in terms of a realtionship with a woman.
And i FULLY AGREE to that. I think every man needs to agree to that.
Dominance means for me, that i have everything in control and that i maintaine that Control with different tools. And a good portion of selfishness is needed as well !!!
Some examples of that tools, that i have identified for me are :
– strong frame and the attitude that comes with it (Not just for women, but especially for life and business in general !!!! )
– taking care about your resources (money, time, energy) and to make sure that you never spend anything of it without having a high possibility of getting something back in return, which has a value for you)
– plate theory and never ever develop oneitis!!!
– developing your type of dominance, so that you are able to play the way
you like and you want it
– know your enemy (white nights, BP and feminists) , learn how women operate
I read and learn from many sources. Some are not right in my opinion and some are right……but i learn from all of them.
As men we must perform. And i love that, because in the end life is boring without competition, isnt?
But Damn, make sure that you get the highest possible part of the cake called life!!!!
No one else can do it for you. You must be the one.
I have already asked myself, how it will be like when iam old and thinking about my life. Exactly like in this post. By the way..iam 36.
And it became clear for me, that i want to live a life where i reach and fulfill my dreams and wishes.
We all know….when the time is coming we will all die allone!
February 22nd, 2015 at 7:19 am
@ Chokmah – Your grasp of the epistemology of western thought is quite under-developed. The ideas of modernity and the renaissance and the age of reason didn’t arise from Christianity. In fact, the emanated from the ideas of the “pagan” Greeks and Romans. This why when early Christians sacked the libraries in Alexandria, killing Hypatia – a leading teacher of the ideas of Lucretius – they claimed to be ridding themselves of pagan ideas.
You see, the ideas of liberty and reason and enlightenment arose in opposition to Christian tyrants. They sought to push God and the King and the state into a proscribed space. Our progress results from rejecting Christian dogma, not by adhering to it.
Have you read Lucretius? His epic, “On the Nature of Things” is perhaps the most amazing work of reason and science and philosophy that has ever been written. Are you also aware that Thomas Jefferson, in his last letter to Johan Adams before his death claimed, “at last, I am an Epicurean”. Our liberty is owed to pagan ideas. Fyi, Lucretius was writing about Epicurean ideals.
The tale of how a cleric and adventurer recovered this lost work is contained in a great book called The Swerve: How the World Became Modern. It’s only once these ancient pagan ideas were rediscovered and pushed into the intellectual view against the wishes of Christianity that the modern world emerges.
Given the above, can we assume the rest of your “reasoning” is really motivated reasoning? Gosh, I mean what a shock that you came up with Christianity – let me guess, you are a Christian already, yes?
As for “operating systems” religion is a small part of the social fabric human beings have always lived in. And its morality reflects human morality that pre-dates it, rather than giving humanity morality. Religion arises as an artifact of our consciousness, soft of like an appendix of our minds. We have an overdeveloped need to have stories about how things work that are simple and understandable – it’s not an overstatement to say that humans are pattern seeking machines. We need to understand things, we need certainty more than we need to be right.
But we don’t need religion. Humanity can function just fine without it.
February 22nd, 2015 at 7:21 am
The alpha doesn’t really die alpha though. In the end, he’s just an advanced pussy beggar. This is a lot of effort you guys are putting into conforming to what women want and expect. In the end, the alpha is really just a guy who reprogrammed his personality so that it accorded with what women demand. He’s just a reflection of women’s desires. Whatever his own desires would have been or could have been, he’ll never know.
What is the point of all this if genuine intimacy with women isn’t possible? And how is it possible if a woman falls for a cartoon character you adopted, one which was based on anticipation of what she wants? If the issue is sex, go get a call girl. It’s cheaper both emotionally and financially anyway, isn’t it? If what is required is to become somebody else in order to achieve intimacy with a woman, it’s not intimacy at all. And all this effort you’re putting into being alpha is really a competition for which there really is no prize to win, no pot of socially successful gold at the end of the rainbow. What’s the point? Guys who don’t bother aren’t “losers” if there is nothing to win in the first place.
MGTOW
February 22nd, 2015 at 8:19 am
@ Divided Line – Consider that the central paradox of The Rational Male is that Rollo is a married man, faithful (according to what he says here – I’ll never believe it, just to put that on the record), has a longstanding wife who submits to him as the leader of his family and is raising a teen daughter. He claims he can maintain frame and his dominance, and it seems he’s at least friendly to traditional Christian values, and traditional values in general.
It brings up some uncomfortable truths. Bear with me for a second, and just set MGTOW aside for a moment. I don’t care about MGTOW, it’s irrelevant to a truly Red Pill man who is self-focused already, but you and I and everyone here live in the same basic social reality, wrt human intersexual relationships. This reality includes:
1. Human sexuality is a tournament contest in which higher performers in this contest have much greater access to desirable sexual partners. Women choose up much more severely than men – but they only do this for the same reason that dogs lick their balls. Because they can.
2. Women choose – Women are the final chooser in about 90% of all heterosexual couplings. And in initial heterosexual couplings it’s almost always the male pursuing and the woman acquiescing. This power of sexual selection is responsible for a huge amount of how humanity evolves as women are actually choosing who gets to pass their genes on and who doesn’t.
3. Men are in a competition for the sexual choice of women – Sadly, most women don’t want to have a thing to do with the bottom 50% of men in this world. Men are biologically, neurologically, psychologically and socially programmed to want to have sex at much, much higher intensity than women do. This evolved way of being has given great advantage to humanity in that it favors selection of the most “fit” males. As an aside, it may also be responsible for the ridiculously rapid development of things like human language skills and intelligence – all that may just be runaway selection like the excessive feathering on a male peacock, lol. But there is no turning it off, and it’s also nothing like an addiction. As an aside, many in MGTOW claim that men are addicted to sex. That’s ridiculous and it has been studied and rejected, the neural pathways etc that are excited by sex are not the same as those for addiction. And no, I won’t link to it, just do some googling you’ll see I’m correct in this.
4. Women have a dualistic mating strategy – seeking both sexual gratification and provisioning in exchange for sexual access. They conceal their motivations and society is informed by many myths about female “love” and sexuality that conceal the base needs women seek to satisfy in exchange for sexual access. It’s not too harsh to say that the entire mythology of romance is designed as a cover for female sexual strategies, and to shame male libidinousness. Women in today’s world have unleashed their desire for sexual gratification in a wild new way, and its destroying marriages and relationships and the traditional family itself. Women originate more than 80% of divorces today where there are young children involved. It’s an epidemic and a catastrophe for society.
5. Blue Pill men still believe that being a “good man’ is somehow going to be rewarded. Nope, all the “good man” is doing is setting himself up to be the beta provider chump who will end up being dumped and paying child support for kids he sees two weekends a month. The entire vassalage of men is given by the values of the gynocentric world in which what’s good for women is what’s good for everyone.
Given the above, what is MGTOW except for a defensive crouch? It may be a good posture for the bottom 50% of men in the mating pool – but then again, a defensive crouch has often been the best position for the losers of life’s many games to adopt. That MGTOW just checks out utterly may seem like “changing the rules”, but it’s nothing of the sort. It is an acceptance of reality. Many of you were never going to reproduce anyway. 40% or more of each generation of men doesn’t get to pass on its genetic material – see what a steep hill the field we’re playing on is? Nature is very unkind, and the female imperative informed world makes it hell for guys who aren’t in the top 20% of men by telling them to be nice, beta guys – who women find repulsive for the most part.
But then there are guys like me. I’ve been scrappy and have faced down long odds my whole life. I’m like M. Simon – don’t tell me the percentages (and yes, of course I know what a BBS is and now I get a bit more about you) – tell me the prize. It’s a brutal vicious game out there and you’ve been lied to and been told that it’s fair and that if you play by “the rules” someday you’ll be rewarded. You’ve been told that “the one” is out there for you and someday someone will see the “real you” underneath your trout-like shoulders, pasty face, dingy hair and sagging paunch.
In fact, Blue Pillness lets you lie to yourself most of all. Guys at the lower end of the SMV range can kid themselves and think they can still get a hottie if they just buy dinner or a house or something. But what women are really saying today is that they won’t do that or that if they do, they will likely change their minds. But men who would never get a chance with a certain woman otherwise might do so if the woman is looking for a good provider. So it’s a pussy upgrade for Blue Pillers – hence the rage when this whole house of cards comes tumbling down around your ears.
MGTOW is a rage quit. Understandable and perhaps not the worst place to hang out for a while, but as a lifestyle choice? Nah. And there are still ways to get laid if you want to work on it. The good news is that men can do a lot more to up their sexual value in this game than women can. And if you are up for short term sex, there are many possibilities. But even if it’s hard, as it is for me now at 52, with most efforts falling short, at least I’m still in the game. At least I’m still playing and sometimes I get some play. You may call that pussy begging, but when I’m balls deep in a 27 year old hottie who sees me as a mentor and a guy who can cook a steak well (happened last summer, the close came when I was cooking the steak and she was shit testing me as her last young BF had tried to impress her by cooking a steak but instead ruined it because he never actually cooked steak), it feels pretty good. Even when I just get a smile back from a young hottie who just likes being a little flirty in the moment, or older women too, the chemistry of being a sexual being in social settings is fun. It feels good. I can’t imagine retiring from that game. Well, check that, I just about did in some real ways but have chucked that shit.
Like I say. Fuck that. I’m still swinging and it feels good and natural to do so. Put in a more Zen like fashion: I saw that I was a machine programmed to want to fuck a lot. So I did.
February 22nd, 2015 at 8:56 am
“they’ve warned their daughters or granddaughters to opt for monogamy with an exciting Alpha lover/husband (no matter how perceptual) rather than regretting the ‘safe bet’ she made by settling on her Plan B man, her Beta-dependable husband she conveniently ‘found’ in her Epiphany Phase.”
Even when given this warning, is it generally possible for the daughters to exercise this option?
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:14 am
@Glenn
Women are Gatekeepers for sex….thats right
Men are Gatekeepers for relationships.
For me its like ying and yang…..or 2 sides of the same coin.
We have to perform to get sex or women, but women also have to perform to get a relationship.
The women are going crazy nowadays because have forgotten somehow about the gatekeeper things!
February 22nd, 2015 at 9:14 am
…because men have forgotten…
February 22nd, 2015 at 10:02 am
MGTOW and PUA are just not that hard to reconcile. The fact is that MGTOWs are correct- alpha/beta/pua is all about performing for a woman, conferring power to her. Remember the only power a woman has, even today, is sexual. Women have laws and politicians and judges catering to them because men cater to them, because we all want pussy. When you do PUS, when you seek to procreate/have sex you are conferring power to her. True enough. Where MGTOW goes wrong is thinking that it’s always an evil thing, or somehow bad. That by “not playing” anything changes- it doesn’t. You just end up watching lots of porn, but the world changes not one bit.
PUAs are delusional in thinking that because they performed a pump and dump that they have now taken the power from women, or that they are not performing. They are.
My way of looking at it is that performing is not a bad thing.. I won;t lie to myself and say MGTOWs are wrong in their observations, because they are, empirically, correct. What I do is enter the Game with a woman knowing exactly the truth of what is happening, and decide my role/play the game with exact awareness of the risk/power I am conferring to her, I acknowledge to myself that I am performing, and I attach strings to my performance so that I benefit, all the while being very clear as to what I am doing and why.
PUA/Game are not diametrically opposed to MGTOW. Both speak to a truth- MGTOW correctly identified the truth of sexual dynamics in our current society and PUA identifies truth about womens mating preferences.
It’s how I, personally, have gone about it so far and it works for me. I respect any mans choice in the matter.
February 22nd, 2015 at 10:14 am
A little comment about the whole genetic legacy ting, btw. People seem obsessed with this gentic/reproductive legacy thing and it is incredibly silly.
Your genes are simple molecular code, an arrangement of molecules that are not special to you. What makes each of us up is the collection of genes and their expression.. your genes are not unique.. the genes for blue eyes are the same in everyone with the gene. There is special “your blue eyes” genes. What makes your blue eyes unique is the interplay of all the genes in your dna.
In other words, you have passed on nothing unique when you reproduce. Nothing. And even of you did, its a molecule, a collection of atoms. Seriously, does designing your life around a collection of molecules sound logical to you? Do you really thing women pick “the best genes”? lol
Come on.
Have children for the sake of enjoying the experience. This idea that you’ve passed some special test or passed on some legacy is really inane.
A friend of mine recently had a kid and he’s been obsessed with this. He is in a crappy marriage with a woman I wouldn;t even get it up for and has paid top dollar for it. All to pass on some copy of molecules that are not even unique to him. Amazing how many things men willingly become slaves to- pussy, power, money, and now mystical molecules that magically confer some deranged form of “immortality”.
Kids are beautiful, wonderful beings. I can imagine that the experience of creating an raising one must be a great joy. That is the reason to have kids.. not some dick measuring, status marker of masculinity so many men seem to have. It’s a very female approach too- women see kids as status markers and always have.. Seems now men are doing the same.
February 22nd, 2015 at 10:27 am
@ Hobbes – Let’s be clear about something. Men and women exist in a sexual power imbalance and have long before feminism or even agrarian society. Women choose, men compete for that choice. Sexual selection by women and our tournament to win that choice has made us what we are.
There is no taking the power back. There is acknowledging reality. You want to fuck young, tight, hot nubile women. More than they want to fuck you. Much more. You are thirsty. MGTOWs pretend that can shut off the thirst. The truly daft ones talk about things like “induced asexuality” as though saying those words in a technical way means it isn’t ridiculous horseshit. As Rollo so aptly points out – let’s take any of those guys to Spearmint Rhino in Vegas and see how asexual he is. And oh yeah, having sex is important to being healthy in many real ways.
If a PUA makes his identity all about his ability to get laid, his life is out of balance. But many simply want to have ready availability of sex, so the “effort” is well worth it. And PUAs are at least playing the game and competing. I find that so much more worthy of respect than a MGTOW rage quit. You are of course welcome to it, but don’t expect men like me to respect it.
February 22nd, 2015 at 10:34 am
A man thinking alpha = pussy beggar is justification for being a pussy himself
Atticus, if you want to ride and you are in the usa, hit up a motorcycle safety course. Locally, they are done through our community colleges, and the course itself is designed and what not by the Motorcycle Safty Fondation.
http://www.msf-usa.org/
They creep you into it, so to speak, and help you avoid that whole laying a bike down thing.
February 22nd, 2015 at 10:47 am
Glenn- maybe you misunderstood my post, but I agree.. MGTOWs have it wrong and I am no MGTOW so you’re preaching to the choir. But their observations are not off, just their response to it- or I won’t say wrong- just not the response I would choose.
February 22nd, 2015 at 11:08 am
@ this quote: “Given the above, what is MGTOW except for a defensive crouch? It may be a good posture for the bottom 50% of men in the mating pool – but then again, a defensive crouch has often been the best position for the losers of life’s many games to adopt. That MGTOW just checks out utterly may seem like “changing the rules”, but it’s nothing of the sort. It is an acceptance of reality. Many of you were never going to reproduce anyway. 40% or more of each generation of men doesn’t get to pass on its genetic material – see what a steep hill the field we’re playing on is? Nature is very unkind, and the female imperative informed world makes it hell for guys who aren’t in the top 20% of men by telling them to be nice, beta guys – who women find repulsive for the most part.”
and @ “Alpha is the first among the slaves”:
Those are relativly radical and also true thoughts.
But one can think even further:
1. Alphas (or even betas or deltas) being (de facto) slaves to women rests on ONE condition:
Not truly realizing (not just “knowing” in an abstract way, but REALIZING) the nature of women.
The split-second that males employ their version of “shit-tests” (=switch of emotions, activate physical power/mastery of real world), the whole idea of women ruling anyone (even deltas) is out of the window.
Realizing their nature means to accept the very simple idea, that they have to be kept as breeding stock and denied the right of free choice – IF (and that condition is not there anymore in the West!) a constantly grwoing, competing and adavancing, coherent society is the goal.
If that is *not* the goal, you can have “freedom of mate choice” and all this stuff we have today.
2. The status of “alpha” is often seen just by reproductive success. Assuming this is a very problematic decision, because it leaves it to women to define what alpha is, with men spouting out what they took as “alpha” out of interpretations of the (rightfully deconstructed) “female mystique”.
Sometimes Rollo does that, too – one of the few points where I don’t agree with him.
Because according to this logic, a drug-addled looser-musician (to pick up a cliche) is more alpha than e.g. some 6 foot, IQ 120 “Übermensch” who invents the cure for cancer and could sire powerful offspring advancing the human race in total- if it where not for females to choose some “funny” loser as a sperm donor.
February 22nd, 2015 at 11:10 am
(and: I#m not MGOTW, but I think theit path is ok)
February 22nd, 2015 at 11:57 am
The problem with the MGTOW view of PUA is that, like anti-gamers, Feminists, etc. they view it as:
“A beta learning to mimic alpha behaviors enough to pretend to be alpha.”
But what PUA (especially modern PUA) *ACTUALLY* is, is more like:
“An alpha, caged in Blue Pill social conditioning, learning to break free from the shackles, and RETURNING to their natural alpha state.”
A lot of what we do in PUA is what feels natural but has been beaten out of us by social conditioning. That’s why a lot of PUA tactics look like stuff we did when we were on a playground pulling pigtails. Because most guys ARE naturally alpha, but from early on (literally day 1 in some cases but often it’s once they’re old enough to be interacting with kids at school) they are socially conditioned into the Blue Pill chains that tell them “don’t speak up”, “don’t take up space”, “don’t tease girls”, “be submissive”, “worry about peer approval”, “try to appease everyone”, “sacrifice your desires for other people”, “be ashamed of your sexuality”, “be ashamed of desiring women”, “don’t talk to women unless you fit society’s arbitrary definition of success”, “supplicate to women”, “don’t expect to deserve women unless you’re tall rich and have a nice car”, “be a gentleman”, “do anything a woman wants the nicer you are the more she’ll like you” etc
Then guys go thru 20 years of that bullshit and ideally they find PUA and start removing those shackles. They do affirmations telling themselves stuff like “I make no apologies for my desires as a man” and learning that it’s OKAY and even beneficial to tease a girl when she does something dumb. They’re not ADDING behaviors to their personality…instinctively when they were 4yo they would have just taken the cookie they wanted to eat or teased the girl who did something dumb, but social conditioning taught them to second guess those instincts and be ashamed of them and “hold back”.
A lot of PUA is about learning to fully express yourself instead of holding back. It’s understanding that a lot of behaviors we THINK are “us” are actually just social conditioning that’s so deep we can’t imagine ourselves any other way.
A baby cries when it wants attention and grabs stuff to eat it when it’s hungry. We all start out running on pure instinct. It’s social conditioning that tells us not to be loud, not to bother people when we want something, to not eat when it isn’t dinner time etc.
And some of that conditioning helps us. Society has some good rules. But a LOT of that conditioning fucks us over.
PUA is about removing chains on instincts that were there when you were a baby following your desires unashamedly, not about adding foreign behaviors. In “fake it till you make it” the “fake it” is faking being comfortable dismissing your social conditioning and the “make it” is being fully okay with not listening to social conditioning and doing what you want instead.
You are NOT someone who cares about a woman’s opinion of you. That is something that was conditioned into you by society. You are NOT someone who puts women on a pedestal. That is social conditioning. You do NOT care about impressing women (when you were a kid you picked your nose in front of them you didn’t self censor your thoughts etc), that’s conditioned into you by society. You are not “beta”, that’s conditioned into you by society and you can escape that.
MGTOW is kind of like guys who’ve decided their socially conditioned selves is who they are and they’ve accepted that and don’t want to change it. They do a lot of stuff PUAs do, like not putting girls on pedestals, disqualifying girls who don’t bring enough to the table, finding a main life purpose outside of women etc (that’s why a lot of MGTOWs find women chasing them harder now that they depedestalized them), but they don’t REALIZE that they’re doing the same thing PUAs do except 1) MGTOW is disjointed and unstructured at this stage so every man ends up with various levels of social conditioning still weighing them down whereas PUAs are all learning to remove all the shackles thru a structured program…kind of like having two groups of men where one group is exercising independently from eachother with different end results and the other group is doing a military bootcamp, and 2) they are often so anti-PUA and refuse to educate themselves on it that they don’t realize the life they want to live as MGTOW is entirely possible if they learn a bit of PUA. A good PUA doesn’t have drama in his life just like MGTOWs don’t. He cuts out women who bring him drama, he never invests more than the minimum in them, he can keep work relationships with women minimal or platonic, and like I said about PUA being about acting on your instincts he is at no times supplicating to women because he isn’t acting like what he thinks they want he’s acting like he instinctively did when he was a kid before social conditioning weighed him down so he’s not performing he’s just being himself.
This is advanced shit tho lol as a newbie to PUA you feel like you’re adding behaviors, it’s only down the road that you realize what’s really going on. And PUA definitely requires an investment period of hard work for a few years to learn and apply so that’s definitely an investment of time. But it’s an investment in removing shackles, not adding new ones.
Ideally PUA gets to men when they’re 16-25 before they’re so shackled that it’s harder to escape and when they’re in that age range where they want to bang girls and are out socializing anyway so they have incentive to learn to remove the shackles and it’s convenient.
When a guy finishes college and esp in his 30s, he’s usually got so much social conditioning built up that PUA seems like a lot of work because now he doesn’t have easy socialization like he did attending a school full of peers he’s around daily. Now he has to ACTIVELY carve out time to go socialize and ACTIVELY create new social circles and ACTIVELY create opportunities to practice removing the shackles. So it seems a lot more daunting and going “fuck it, I don’t want to change I’m happy enough with my socially conditioned self as-is” and MGTOW seems a lot more appealing/easy to adopt because it’s less work.
My life basically looks like a MGTOW except that I go out and socialize with women and have sex with them. But all my relationships are on my terms, if a woman doesn’t follow my rules then she’s out. I do what I want, when I want, and I have my own life goals and purpose outside of women. I put them low priority and flake on them for anything else like work or hanging with my male buddies etc and if they have a problem with that they’re welcome to find another guy. I don’t lie to them I tell them straight up from the start that I’m not looking for a relationship and don’t do the girlfriend thing and that I have other girls on the go and if that’s an issue they’re welcome to move on. I invest at the most a couple hours and buying myself a drink, and from that I get a fuckbuddy who will doll herself up in sexy outfits and drive to my apartment and show up at my door to have sex and leave after, no cost to myself I don’t even give them food or offer to pay for their cab or anything lol. And in a few months if I can see they’re starting to get attached when I expressly stated at the start that me being their boyfriend isn’t an option, I cut them off and send them on their way to meet a guy who wants an LTR. And my work/purpose ALWAYS takes priority over all of that because I know I can always get more girls if the ones I’m seeing get butthurt that I simply txted “not tonight, working.” and didn’t entertain a big dramatic discussion about it.
But it’s a lot easier to write PUA off as the cartoon stereotype of the pussy beggars trying to fake their personality and lie to women and shower them with resources and huge time investments and drama pedestalizing them desperately chasing that whiff of magical pussy. The same way it’s easy to write MGTOWs off as a bunch of pussies who can’t get laid or write MRAs off as whiny bitter old divorced men or write the Manosphere off as a bunch of angry dudes who just want to fuck Asian hookers etc lol
February 22nd, 2015 at 12:18 pm
@Softek
ref your commentary from February 21st, 2015 at 9:27 am
Excellent, fabulous post. Thank you for your contribution.
That’s the way. It’s a mix of meditation/awareness-techniques and regression. Btw: do you know “The Presence Process” by M. Brown?
February 22nd, 2015 at 12:33 pm
thanks Yareally, nailed it like usual
no guesses yet on which part of the space the quote was from (not who, just MRA etc.). Here’s more from the same talk:
If nobody else was getting married would you say to your girlfriend, you know what would be fucking cool we should make a promise to each other that we would be together forever and make a legal thing that
if we break up with have to split up have our assets in a big court battle where we fight out with lawyers. When said like that does marriage sound very appealing?
February 22nd, 2015 at 2:27 pm
M Simon February 21st, 2015 at 10:32 pm
Are you saying it’s an achievement to have the same woman for 20, 30, 40, 50 years? If that’s you, which by your comments seems to be the case, then well done, that IS an acheivement in this day and age of the FI running in God Mode backed by the Law, Television, Myths etc. I mean that sincerely.
However, I’d ask you to re-read my comment – which bit of ‘I like to get my dick wet’ did you not understand? That’s why I read all of Rollo’s stuff as well as MGTOW. One learns to handle what the ‘fairer sex’ does and one’s own motivations in life as well as self improvement and outcome independence – you know, ‘build it and they will come’. The philosophies cross over heavily. There are some great MGTOW channels that chime in with Rollo’s stuff perfectly – TruthOverEverything comes to mind.
Humanity has come a lot further because of what Gallileo, Newton and Tesla et al did, if you want to talk about ‘owing’, then you and your progeny owe them as well – those genetic ‘losers’ – because their amazing minds gave birth to the modern age and technology in the first place. In fact, if we didn’t have that, we wouldn’t be able to procreate as successfully as we have done. The ‘owing’ argument is also a typical tool of the FI, feminism is allowed to get away with a lot of sh*t by ‘justifying’ that women are owed things for countless years of ‘opression’. I’m sorry but nobody owes anybody anything, new life is a natural consequence of having sex, no medal ceremony – get over yourself.
February 22nd, 2015 at 3:12 pm
@ Quint
Lol, you answer my admittedly hyperbolic points with NAMGTOWALT? Seriously?
February 22nd, 2015 at 3:22 pm
Yareally wrote:
MGTOW is kind of like guys who’ve decided their socially conditioned selves is who they are and they’ve accepted that and don’t want to change it
Even more, they don’t believe that they really can change it. MGTOWs want to do a work-around to masculinity instead of unshackling themselves from the Matrix. Because they are inherently cowardly Because they might fail to become men. So they don’t try and keep their hollow chests.
Curious OT stuff: See my post about Jesus flirting. He was a PUA, at least in capability.
February 22nd, 2015 at 3:26 pm
I typically have no problem with MGTOW criticism of women and of feminists. What I have a problem with is their crappy work-arounds.
February 22nd, 2015 at 3:34 pm
@theasdgamer Hyperbole or not particularly alpha ‘shaming’ language? I couldn’t decide.
February 22nd, 2015 at 3:34 pm
@ Yareally
Another MGTOW criticism of PUAs is that their skills are worthless. Because salesmanship is such a worthless skill to have. Not.
February 22nd, 2015 at 3:38 pm
@ Quint
@theasdgamer Hyperbole or not particularly alpha ‘shaming’ language? I couldn’t decide.
IDGAF what you think about me. Come up with serious points.
February 22nd, 2015 at 3:55 pm
@YaReally
Earlier I asked if you could direct me to some useful PUA. I want to learn, can you show me?
February 22nd, 2015 at 4:04 pm
@YaReally
Ha! I just clicked on your name and a BUNCH of cool shit came up. Thanks for archiving this.
February 22nd, 2015 at 4:25 pm
@Yollo Comanche
“The shit I’ve bought over the years is essentially useless for my particular set of psychological attributes(abusive family/never really gave a fuck about society).”
eh, fuck all that. None of it affects your ability to go talk to a girl and get laid. We all have baggage, you just start taking action. Like Tyler says: “it’s funny how many mental disorders like depression and baggage and childhood angst and apathy suddenly go away once a guy is getting laid by hot girls” lol
“I mean why call it game if it’s just advice on how to “improve” yourself to make yourself palatable to women?”
This is sort of my issue with the Red Pill and parts of the Manosphere…they’re generally advocating “work out, make money, increase your value” etc. and make fun of the “pussy-chasing, numbers-game playing” PUAs who actually cold approach random girls, but they’re still taking a PASSIVE strategy. It means that ya, they’ll increase the amount of iois they get and shit, but they’ll still be stuck banging girls that choose them instead of having choice. ie – they’ll be in a bar and see a hot girl that they WANT, but they brushed off all that silly try-hard PUA nonsense and don’t have the external skills to approach and bang that girl especially since now she’s talking to a guy or she’s in a 5-set of girls or they approach and don’t know how to split the set and isolate to build enough comfort to get a solid close, so they end up not approaching her just hoping she notices them, or getting a mundane friend-zoned interaction where when she doesn’t respond to his texts the next day he says “NEXT!!!!” to preserve his ego and pretend like she wasn’t the one Next’ing him lol, and they go home with the 6 that approached them to feel their muscles and compliment them because it was easy.
Personally, I got into game to have choice. Choice requires taking action. Taking action requires some external game/tactics/concepts.
“They’ve been exposed to be so different, yet so uncaring of what I am as long as I give them what they think they want. Why try so hard to model myself after an “alpha” yet never actually become the guy who does what he wants and wins anyway? Isn’t “alpha” just about living my life as I want while having a better arsenal than the next pickled penis?”
Who cares? Drop the philosophy and go for what you want. If you want to get pussy, all you have to do is read some tips on how to seduce a girl and then go out and chat them up. Fuck all that other mental masturbation.
It’s like debating the worth of hitting the gym or why you should lift weights when cardio is better for bla bla, just go get in shape, it’s fine, take action, enjoy the sweat and looking good in the mirror lol You don’t have to rationalize it.
“I haven’t left my house to go get pussy in years.”
lol you’ll have to fix that. You can’t learn game sitting at your keyboard. You NEED to burn reference experiences into your brain so it learns to react. It’s like you can’t learn to fight at home by yourself without getting in a sparring ring with a partner. You can learn lots of cool useful stuff, but you won’t be any kind of a fighter without live practice.
Definitive video on why you need to go out:
“I want to be a test subject for your theory of a blended Red Pill/MGTOW/Non-Tradcon guy. Please feel free to point the way to me.”
Here’s the most basic material that’ll give you enough tools to get laid off cold-approach pickup:
http://yareallyarchive.com/2013/6/#comment-heartiste-450395
Combine that with going out a lot. Going out to socialize should be a part of your life, even if it’s just once every week or two. A man’s life should have a balance between work, health, socializing, sex, etc. If you want to get good FAST, go out 4-6 nights/days a week for 4-6 hours a night. But depending on how socially awkward or fucked up you are in general, even going out fri/sat nights weekly should get you started toward being better in a year or two.
Once you’ve gotten the skillset down, the time/money investment is practically non-existent, like playing basketball is easy for Kobe, he could just play once a month and still be amazing. Same with exercise, if you’re a 400lbs fat fuck, you’re gonna have to hit the gym hard to get in shape, but once you GET in shape you can tone it down and just maintain it with way less investment.
This is a big part of why people reject PUA, the initial time investment is a lot. For a guy in college it’s not bad because he’s socializing all day. He can practice just speaking up more in class or inviting people to the bar to build a social circle etc., so he doesn’t have to really go out of his way to do it. But a guy who’s like, 35, divorced and working overtime to pay alimony/child support, maybe has some other responsibilities, no social circles, no friends except a couple buddies from high school who are married now, THAT guy is more likely to go “ehhh, fuck it I’m going to just go MGTOW” because he would have to invest a lot to get to where he can just coast and maintain his skillset.
I don’t want to call that just “laziness”, I understand that it’s a daunting mountain to climb (since I climbed it myself and know other guys who have), but it’s taking an easier path…which is totally fine if they’re happy with their sex lives. Like if they’re happy, that’s fuckin cool, good on ya…but I find a lot of guys who reject PUA choose those “try to become asexual” or “accept that I’m meant to not reproduce and die alone” identities because even though they’d actually LIKE a warm female body curled up to them at night, they just don’t think they can do it or don’t want to invest the time in a skillset that would require them to overhaul their lifestyle for a couple years and then return to it with the addition of being able to get laid and have the type of non-commital relationships they want.
February 22nd, 2015 at 4:31 pm
@theasdgamer Charming… well I do ‘GAF’ about what you think which is why I made my original statement. Seriously, I thought I did present a proper argument – your point was that MGTOW are losers because they don’t leave any genetics behind, was it not?
MGTOW is about eliminating one’s gene’s from the gene pool.
MGTOW is about not having offspring.
MGTOW is about eliminating the human race by failing to reproduce.
It may have been misunderstood but my counter was meant to mean:
‘but are they really losers if they have reached a sort of “immortality” by contributing and defining the modern age as we know it, despite the fact that they did not reproduce?’
If the only war to be won is to reproduce then by definition you are correct. But a large proportion of the ‘winners’ in the race you declared are partly around because of the ‘losers” contribution, that’s a fact – they are responsible for amazing acheivements in medicine and science and many other fields. Thus:
MGTOW is about species death and giving up the struggle to reproduce.
doesn’t ring true to me, hence my original argument.
It really isn’t that much of an acheivement to reproduce – fleas do it too – it can be argued that to create and innovate the way those names have is also possibly because they did not take on the burden of having a dream killer
http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/14/dream-killers/
It very well may have been that they were able to fly to such heights because of eschewing women whether consciously or not, and in doing so contributed to the onward march of humanity more so than just having progeny and hoping for the best. Their dreams were not killed. Your counter argument that ‘NAMGTOWALT’ is valid in a sense, as there will be many intelligent and hard working people who were married and had progeny and contributed to the advancement of the human race – but then you’d also have to accept that
“Not All People That Reproduce Are Like That” (And Possibly In Much Greater Numbers Relative To Those That Don’t) – but the brackets are only a supposition on my part.
As for
a) MGTOW is about shaming alphas for behaving like men.
Well, any MGTOW that does that is an idiot and doesn’t understand biology. Alphas gonna alpha, betas gonna beta, no? There is a misconception that MGTOW = TFL which I don’t think is true.
b) MGTOW is about making half of the human race (women) invisible.
Well, what is your definition of invisible. If just having sex with women makes them visible then PUAs, naturals, lesser alphas, betas, MGTOW who date and MGTOW-WEA (pay for play) do not ignore women. And they all interact with them in non sexual ways all the time as anyone would in society. Hardcore MGTOW ghost and ignore everyone like Grizzly Adams, whether you are female or male.
And more so, so what? No one is obliged to notice anyone.
No beef, just my argument. Hope it made sense.
February 22nd, 2015 at 4:51 pm
@theasdgamer
“Even more, they don’t believe that they really can change it. MGTOWs want to do a work-around to masculinity instead of unshackling themselves from the Matrix. Because they are inherently cowardly Because they might fail to become men. So they don’t try and keep their hollow chests.”
This mentality is not too dissimilar from fat girls who wants men to like fat chicks instead of just hitting the gym.
But I wouldn’t paint MGTOW so narrowly. There are a lot of factors involved in MGTOW beyond just “is it possible to change?”, from “is it worth changing?” to “even if I changed would I want what that change leads to?” to “even if I changed and got what I want, would the amount of bullshit society throws at me for achieving that be worth having it?”
So like, I get that it’s not a black and white “MGTOWs are just pussies” thing. They have a lot of valid points and I can see why a guy would choose MGTOW, especially if he’s over 30 and been through a divorce or some bad relationships. The guys <25 looking into MGTOW I think would be better served taking up PUA and eventually transitioning to MGTOW when they have the PUA skillset, so that they're choosing general celibacy from a position of power/choice VS inability. ie – I think someone who grew up wanting a dog should learn to handle/lead/train a dog so that if they decide not to own a dog it's because they choose not to and not because they don't know how to keep it from biting people in the park…and I can understand why someone who's been mauled by a dog or sees no value in dogs or is too set in a lifestyle not conducive to learning how to train a dog, would just not get a dog at all.
Ultimately I'd like to see a movement that brings all these groups together so that men are basically given a lesson plan on "look, here's the bare minimum on how to get and handle and keep girls without being fucked over, here's the bare minimum on diet/exercise to improve your health, the bare minimum on careers and male disoposibility and creating wealth and building independent businesses to eject from the system, and here are the ways society is against you and why their plan for you isn't good for you and how you can avoid its pitfalls and help be an activist in trying to make changes to the legal system if you want or just secretly spread this guide to as many men as possible".
THAT'S what's going to benefit the next generations of men.
But we're a long ways away from that because everybody is too busy sniping at eachother on message boards and comment sections lol
February 22nd, 2015 at 5:04 pm
Also the guide would cover the bare minimum on how to have kids in today’s society and legal traps and hypergamy traps and basically give a plan for “how to keep your girlfriend attracted enough to probably not fuck you over if you REALLY want to have kids and how having kids will affect her hypergamy and behavior and shit-testing because you can no longer easily leave and how to counter that and be prepared for it when it happens to minimize it and how to avoid getting legally married through all of it by knowing what pressures are going to be put on you and how to nullify them, and ideally successfully reproduce on your own terms in this modern age.
But like, just from that description alone you can see how a guide to just that would require combined knowledge from PUAs (attracting and maintaining a solid LTR with a quality baby mama and how her behavior and shit-testing will change), MRAs (the legal aspects/risks of fatherhood and separations and family courts bias etc.), Red Pill/Manosphere in general (maximizing your career, wealth, health, looks, etc.), MGTOW (prioritizing your own needs over women, finding a purpose and path in life to follow, rejecting society’s expectations of you voluntarily chaining yourself to the plantation), etc.
I think it’s possible to do, but it’s gonna take a lot more working together to pull off. Or someone with enough time and objectivity to sift through it all and combine it into something coherent. Who knows, maybe when I’m older and have more downtime lol
February 22nd, 2015 at 5:19 pm
This mentality is not too dissimilar from fat girls who wants men to like fat chicks instead of just hitting the gym.
Rationalization of their failure to perform + appeal to sympathy of the opposite sex is really more of a Nice Guy beta thing. Knock off the appeal to sympathy and you’ve got MGTOW though, yes.
They have a lot of valid points and I can see why a guy would choose MGTOW, especially if he’s over 30 and been through a divorce or some bad relationships.
Heh, good to know I’m in your “It’s fair to go MGTOW” demographic.
The guys <25 looking into MGTOW I think would be better served taking up PUA
I think I see your reasoning between the two. “No reason to give up if you’ve never really tried with the proper tools and rules”, basically. I would say then that age is completely irrelevant in the MGTOW decision. Instead, I would propose this to potential MGTOWs: don’t knock learned alpha and PUA before you’ve given it a serious, real try. If after truly finding and knowing an alpha mindset you’re still finding no success (I find this highly unlikely, but possible) then MGTOW is totally a respectable choice.
I think where the “MGTOW are just pussies” meme comes from is that a lot of them never even try once they know the truth. They learn the rules, then stomp off pissed and never even try to play the game. Instead they hate on it, making a very clear show of rationalizing a lack of confidence in themselves and their ability to play the game by calling out players and learned alphas. There are of course exceptions to this, but I’ve watched a lot of MGTOW throughout the ‘sphere act this way. TL;DR: they do it to themselves, unfortunately.
Other places I feel most MGTOW go wrong:
– I do agree with Rollo that certain aspects of it are unrealistic. To a degree whether you want to PUA, LTR, or avoid romantic relationships altogether, you must deal enough with women to develop amused mastery. You will run in to women in your life and whether gaming them for sex or just dealing with them in a professional context, amused mastery, C&F, and A&A will be the way to assert your frame in social situations. Period. You need social skills, and PUA encourages you to learn those whatever your end game might be. A lot of MGTOWs seem to write this off as being a slave, when it’s actually learning to take better control of your social interactions.
– Disqualifying yourself before even trying after learning the rules. Sort of what I was referencing above, but more explicitly most guys that go from swallowing the pill straight to MGTOW are guilty of disqualifying themselves at the meta level. From http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/05/a-league-of-your-own/
Iron Rule of Tomassi #8
Always let a woman figure out why she wont fuck you, never do it for her.
Going MGTOW without even trying is a flagrant violation of that rule.
– “I could get women, I just don’t want to bother” is what I hear from some MGTOWs. Some actually know this for a fact. A lot don’t. I’m not buying it if you’ve not proven it for real to at least yourself. Otherwise it just comes across as rationalization for failure to act.
Keep in mind I’m not saying MGTOW is wrong. Hell I’m running monk mode for the moment because I realized I was not doing better than HB5s and needed introspection for a bit. That’s basically temp MGTOW. But really I feel it’s a case of “don’t knock it till you try it” that a lot of Game-aware guys try to make to instant MGTOWs.
February 22nd, 2015 at 5:46 pm
@ Yareally
There are a lot of factors involved in MGTOW beyond just “is it possible to change?”, from “is it worth changing?” to “even if I changed would I want what that change leads to?” to “even if I changed and got what I want, would the amount of bullshit society throws at me for achieving that be worth having it?”
How much of this is just excuses for cowardice? Do MGTOWs even want to be the best men that they can be? To up their testosterone to normal levels so that they care about fakking? Is it natural for a man to forego women? To not want progeny? Yes, the legal environment sucks, but there are strategies to deal with that. A lot of it requires solid relationship game. Even a lot of PUAs need that.
Ok, so lots of women suck. Men need to be more selective. Oh wait, let me fix that. Betas need to be more selective. So that women will improve themselves (be feminine, not whales, etc.). Alphas also need to communicate what they (we) want from women (keep fit, be feminine, be sweet, be warm, mateguard yourselves, etc.). Betas are the problem since they will put up with any 5h1t from women in order to get the illusion that they can have pussy whenever they want it.
MGTOWs need to focus their ire on beta supplicants, not on alphas.
February 22nd, 2015 at 6:02 pm
@ Quint
It may have been misunderstood but my counter was meant to mean:
‘but are they really losers if they have reached a sort of “immortality” by contributing and defining the modern age as we know it, despite the fact that they did not reproduce?’
If the only war to be won is to reproduce then by definition you are correct. But a large proportion of the ‘winners’ in the race you declared are partly around because of the ‘losers” contribution, that’s a fact – they are responsible for amazing acheivements in medicine and science and many other fields.
Not misunderstood and answered. You are arguing NAMGTOWALT. Irrelevant for the bulk of MGTOW. Their primary non-contribution will be a lack of offspring and any contribution will be irrelevant if species death occurs. Assuming that MGTOW become a significant percentage of men, how many will make a significant contribution? Or will most simply be entertainment-guzzling no-shows?
MGTOW is about species death and giving up the struggle to reproduce.
doesn’t ring true to me, hence my original argument.
If most men follow MGTOW and don’t reproduce, we have a species death scenario. In fact, if the replacement rate of women goes below 2.1 due to MGTOW, we have a species death scenario. The US is below 2.1 as is most of Europe.
If a small percentage of men follows MGTOW, then its impact on species death is irrelevant. However, it is being billed as a viable option for most men, or so it seems to me.
I think that we agree on the rest of the ideas in substance, though our communication might be a little muddy.
February 22nd, 2015 at 6:59 pm
theasdgamer – “Is it natural for a man to forego women? To not want progeny?”
Yes. Perfectly natural, and visible throughout history. Often a necessity, and a result of logistics.
The explorers, trappers, and mountain men that preceded the westward settlement of the US being a good group to look at. As social misfits, non-conformists, misanthropes, and assorted weirdos these guys had the option to go their own way by going away, an option not available today.
Prior to WWII the lower classes of men, ag labor, cowboys, miners, loggers, railroad workers, etc. relied on prostitution because they were unable to provide for a wife, and there were relatively few women on the frontier.
It’s only because of the post WWII economic boom that the “American Dream” became anything like an achievable reality regardless of class. But with the US is on decline, if not dying, we see a return to do order, nut with birth control, and a state favored position for women.
February 22nd, 2015 at 7:08 pm
@YaReally
…..thank you. Thank you so much.
February 22nd, 2015 at 8:28 pm
If most men follow MGTOW and don’t reproduce, we have a species death scenario. In fact, if the replacement rate of women goes below 2.1 due to MGTOW, we have a species death scenario. The US is below 2.1 as is most of Europe.
Caucasians in the US are below 2.1. Hispanics and blacks are not. We’re seeing death of a particular race, not a species.
February 23rd, 2015 at 12:40 am
“If most men follow MGTOW and don’t reproduce, we have a species death scenario. In fact, if the replacement rate of women goes below 2.1 due to MGTOW, we have a species death scenario. The US is below 2.1 as is most of Europe.”
No.
As Sun Wukong said: This is about some races dying out, not about the species. There is no lack of e.g. yellow or black people (simplifying here) on the planet.
All this talk about “species death” doesn’t change the factors in current society that make having children with a women under current legal enviroments (as middle class or above)…well, we all know about that. Your local police force/lawyers gives a shit about how tight some “frame” is, btw. ;-) One call from dissatisfied wife – bang, there goes the front door & you’re out.
Concerning PU & LTRs, I see only one (even barly workable) part:
Do exactly as the feminists stupidly explicated for everyone to see:
1. Keep ultra-tight financial control – not as stingyness, but in the sense that you NEVER mix accounts, money or property.
2. Secure own property & finances in ways that the almost almigthy dicorce courts can’t get (–> parents, “outsourcing” to companys /w certain legal status, just plain hiding it ouside the banking system etc.)
3. Do NOT associate (in the sense of LTR) with women who earn much less than you.
4.Do not care about women’s “problems” or “wishes” at all, but don’t say it out loud. (–> emotional needyness has to be completly eradicated)
5. Don’t marry and don’t commom-law-marry, EVER. (This will be the next big FI-move, trying to insinuate marriage-status for free men to divorce rape them, has already started in many places)
As soon as you take women’s indrect ways of revenge out of the equation (that is, make yourself almost impossible to “divorce”/attack via property) and avoid crazies – you are almost as good as set:
What else than shouting and puting can they do, in the worst case?
Leave you? Hahah, non-threat. Cue “let’s stay friends”-routine, go off grid, get new female.
A minimal risk remains (false rape etc.) – but some minimal risks you just can’t avoid in life. (You don’t stay inside all day b/c a plane could crash right on your head / aka 1-in-a-million chance of misfortune)
Returning to “species death”:
So what if this (s.a.) leads to less children and the death of societies that constantly fucked over their most reliable and solid members?
Those societies have become a pet project of some apex-alphas and/or genius-level-omegas long ago. Nothing in there really.
“Death of stupid societies brainwashed by Frankfurt School and hook-nosed cultural Marxism” would be more appropriate. New clans, tribes and societies will rise (and the first thing they will do is something we should have done 50-70 years ago).
February 23rd, 2015 at 1:05 am
This article, like most of Rollo’s, presents me with strong parallels to my own life.
Any man with a RP perspective will be able to relate to my observations of my mother’s relationship with my stepfather. Over the past 33yrs, a gradual transformation has taken place that shows me exactly how little in the way of “rewards” waits for a lifelong beta provider.
My mother married him at the age of 40, after three failed marriages to bolder, less safe men. She confided in me shortly after they wed, that she had the option of being with better looking, more physically desirable men. She reasoned that he was a better choice, because he was a “good Christian man” (chump provider) at heart.
Like countless other relationships of their generation (both are in their early 70’s now), it was supposed to be based on “equality”, “mutual goals”, etc.
The power dynamic has shifted over time to strongly favor women in general, my mother in particular. Family events are painful at times, with my stepfather (and frequently my brother) routinely receiving the equivalent of a smack on the nose with a rolled up newspaper for any perceived transgression. The contempt is obvious in her voice, and is usually met with approval from the female family members present.
Her goals are given priority over his consistently, especially where money is concerned. Like many BP men, he has always out earned her by a significant margin. At 70+, with failing health, and a lifelong BP perspective, he has few options.
My interpretation of the relationships around me (and my own) led me to a serious self-evaluation of my strengths, weaknesses, and goals, among other things. I have discovered that a would be red pill convert must be able to withstand psychological isolation from those not unplugged. It’s worth every bit of the effort though. I’m living my life with more passion now than I have in a long time. This May is set for a bear hunt/fly fishing trip in western Montana. Don’t wait to be rewarded, do it for yourself.
Thanks Rollo for creating this forum, and thanks to those posting here for creating a much needed discussion.
February 23rd, 2015 at 4:11 am
@Glenn
I already know all this stuff and I don’t disagree with any of it. I’ve had three long term relationships in my life and a handful of flings and one night stands. I have enough experience with women to know there is no prize. You said: “tell me the prize,” but I’ve already asked you what the prize is? Just get a damn call girl, who cares? If it is as bad as you say it is, and if it is the uphill battle you describe, then you lose for winning, as I already argued. What is point of subordinating your whole life to chasing what is a paltry reward? Really you’ve just made my argument for me. Why do you think it’s even worth it? It’s just ego? I’d rather just be happy and do something else. And truth be told, constantly trying to get laid turns you into a soulless, boring, sociopathic person. I don’t want to be that person. I don’t agree that this would be an “improvement.” It’s not an improvement to model yourself after coddled and clueless women’s daddy issues riven masculine ideal. Indeed, one could argue that it’s downright tragic.
If your goal is just to pass on your genes, you can certainly do this without totally reprogramming your personality and becoming somebody else. It’s not *that* difficult to find a woman to sleep with you. It’s difficult to find one with high SMV maybe, and damn near impossible to find one that is trustworthy or long term relationship material but is it really that important? It’s not like you’re going to spend the rest of your life with her anyway. You said it yourself, 80% of divorces are initiated by women while half of them end in divorce rape, so why even bother? There’s no prize to win.
Also, in regards to natural selection and women as the gatekeepers. Of course you’re right about all of this. But where I think you have it wrong here is in your assumption that most men who are weeded out will simply go MGTOW while the rest of the alpha cads frolic in the sunshine with their harems. A good portion of men will go MGTOW like me, but quite a few more are going to have their interpretation of ideology and public affairs colored by these grievances and fears. You can see this happening already. The reality is that we’re social animals that depend on a division of labor to survive, so it’s civic trust and having a personal stake in the social order which produces cooperation necessary to create a functioning social group. This is as evolutionarily determined as anything else unless you think there is some other reason that you would have a physical part of your brain devoted to language and symbolic thinking. Why do you think you have so many muscles in your face to communicate complex emotional states and intentions? That’s how important division of labor and therefore cooperation was to our survival. The groups that could communicate and cooperate could divide their labor in far more complex ways and thus win out in the race for resources over the groups who didn’t.
Therefore you can reasonably expect that the more men who fall out of the mating game or spend their lives hanging on by the bottom rung, the far greater the likelihood of political instability, self perpetuating decline, criminality, social dysfunction and collapse. A lot of guys won’t just shuffle off to a field quietly as evolutionary duds, they will in fact support hardline ideologues and demagogues who will give them the excuse they need to smash a failed society to which they have no meaningful relationship. Either way, everybody loses.
Again, you didn’t answer my question. Why bother? Are you this concerned with the perpetuation of the human race? As if it’s your responsibility or something? All I care about is saving myself. It’s a sinking ship and I have a life boat and far more things to do with my time than to try to plug the leaks. The ship deserves to sink. Not one fuck given.
February 23rd, 2015 at 4:25 am
@Glenn
Let me amend that. All men lose. Women, as ever, win. They’ll be sure to get their war bride tingles when the previous alphas are overthrown by the aspiring alphas. You are forever disposable. I’m sure even the Sabine Women would have appreciated 50 Shades of Grey.
February 23rd, 2015 at 7:22 am
Sun
When you control for native born Americans. all races are below the replacement rate. American immigrants reproduce at high levels in the first generation only.
http://www.prb.org/publications/datasheets/2012/world-population-data-sheet/fact-sheet-us-population.aspx
February 23rd, 2015 at 7:33 am
Oh, wait, the news is even worse since 2012.
The new record-low teen birthrate — 26.6 births per 1,000 women aged 15-19 — represented a 10 percent decline from 2012 and a 57 percent drop since 1991, the most recent peak for teen births, the report said.
Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/may/28/us-birthrate-plummets-to-record-low/#ixzz3SZRBWTKG
http://reason.com/blog/2014/12/05/us-birth-rate-hits-all-time-low-total-fe
February 23rd, 2015 at 7:47 am
A very complex, yet simple Catch 22. The actual arguments for it can go on “ad absurdum.” In the end, only the self can justify the course of action. Over-abundance of theory. Actual practice or action…..That is different. Colleges are full of professors discussing writing. Do we actually have ” modern” writers…let us ask the
professorsagain. See, Catch 22. It never fucking ends.
Five hundred billion words. More words. More words. But, it all comes down to actual
Action. And that is hard to do. Fucking hard.
There, just added my couple of hundred words to the conversation…
I wish everyone a great day.
February 23rd, 2015 at 7:49 am
@ 447
If there’s no human species, there’s no one to read your arguments. Hence, your arguments fail to have any lasting value no matter the end result. Hence, your arguments are ignorable.
February 23rd, 2015 at 7:54 am
@ DividedLine
If your goal is just to pass on your genes, you can certainly do this without totally reprogramming your personality
Let’s translate this into BluePillese:
“If your goal is just to pass on your genes, you can certainly do this while remaining a socially-awkward omega low-testosterone incel.”
February 23rd, 2015 at 9:13 am
A Man needs to learn PUA Techniques. But it’s also clear that not all men will find women in spite of using PUA Techniques, because some are just not appealing in terms of looking. And the same goes for unattractive women!
However……
I just dont understand why so many men are so deppressiv and negativ about women. In the end women are just natural dictated human beeings…just like us men!
Every Man needs to learn and understand that first -> RED PILL
But where MGTOW are right in some aspects is, that nowadays many women are just not usable for family or even a steady relationship.
Thats a fact!
And thats where we Men can play our cards out by refusing marriage at all.
PUA is for me a direct answer to that. To game the way you want it. To enjoy women without all the bullshit that comes with relationships.
Thats why PUA, in my opinion, is just “another” part of a MGTOW type of answer to that issue.
Here in Germany there is a very low Birthrate of germans. So low, that in about 20-30 years Germany will have a decline of inhabitants in a magnitute of about 20 millions!
That is a big concern for the economy in Germany.
So in the end all this nonsense feminization is in fact a direct threat for a society.
The problem is that you get the result of that kind of threat several decades later!
So the harm for western societys is already there and not to be redeemed.
A Man nowadays has to take care of his own, because one of the biggest weakness we men have is, that we are not working together like women do.
You can easily “see” that here on the comments section.
So until Men are able to come together, MGTOW seems to be a movement worth of considering…just like MRA’S, PUA and RED PILL !!!
February 23rd, 2015 at 9:48 am
Loquacious today…
So much talk about systems and/or the “system” and so little understanding. I being just a grand buffoon, provide no paradigms or a path to any enlightenment. I enjoy reading your comments. I am saddened by all of our experiences and struggles.” Ecce homo” is all I care to say.
I read Rollo’s blog for strength. And, most of your comments are empowering as well. Thank you lads for helping me and giving me courage.
Godspeed gents!
February 23rd, 2015 at 9:53 am
ATTENTION YAREALLY (AND ROLLO IF YOU CAN HELP). Rollo, thank you for letting us leave longer comments here. I’m posting this here because CH gets mad at me when I leave long comments at this site.
I’m a good (not nice) dude who needs help, please.
“People seem wicked, when you’re not wanted.” Jim Morrison, in YaReally-like fashion, told us so. I get it. The positive-attitude contingent of the manosphere—or the comment section of this board, anyway, for those who don’t like that term—makes this point. The bitter betas who complain about women and YKW constantly would be happier if they were only getting laid. Fair point. But may I add a thought to this idea?
There is such a thing as justified bitterness, anger, or even horror, when a man discovers the red pill. The greatest example, in my opinion, is those who are no-fault divorced (with kids) who are loving fathers, who essentially are divorced for being beta and because of this feminine-primary society, as Rollo puts it, who discovered the red pill too late. I contribute this perspective when I comment here.
YaReally, I love you, man. I respect the chronic positivity that you bring to the internet, and I try so hard to channel your lessons and your attitude and be the best man I can be—and try to create some kind of sex life for myself while I’m at it. But there are certain truths, which lately even you have been addressing. One of them is the plight of GENERATION X. We as a generation of men were royally fucked over. We were. As I think back, I can remember it started in the 1980s. When I was in elementary school, there was nonstop bashing of boys and promotion of grrrrl power. I can remember my teachers literally saying the words, “Girls are smarter” hahahaha and everyone was supposed to laugh. Throughout my school and work life, I have had to achieve better than women and minorities for the same positions (acceptance to college, law school, job after law school), all while paying more taxes and still being a beta who has spent so many thousands of dollars taking women out to dinner only to not get laid mainly BECAUSE I was too much of a gentleman. Then the marriage/divorce, which has literally cost me over $1 million, literally.
But aside from that, lately I’ve been getting dates (admittedly through online dating) and applying the lessons of the videos you’ve linked—essentially confident eye contact, getting in her space, being funny and relaxed, not being afraid to touch her, talking slowly—and I find these women are duds! You might say it’s a numbers problem—too small sample size? I guess even PUAs and even you might admit that you have to approach 20 women (or 40?) for every bang? Some women are just too far gone? I keep being put in a beta provider role by these mid-30s women (that’s the problem right there?) who I have given no indication that I’m willing to do that for. Without being over-jerky, in my opinion.
There is a problem in this world: it takes two to tango, no man (or person) is an island. We live in this world. We were given this world—we didn’t make it. So many women are SO far gone, damaged, messed up from the barrage of stupid-feminism they’ve been bombarded with their entire lives. They don’t come close to even understanding themselves the way the readers of CH understand them—like how they have given it up so many times to alpha douchebags (not you—true douchebags who hit them) in their 20s “for a bag of skittles or less,” then they meet a guy who is stupid enough (me) to marry them at age 37 IF THEY WOULD ONLY BE REASONABLY NICE TO ME! You weren’t there and I can’t prove it, but I have had 3 recent dates where it is my opinion that I was cocky-funny, confident, witty, not over the top in their face but like made them hold my hand right away walking down the street, etc. The most recent one, this chick was like a beta guy—she could not look me in the eye!! I was trying to do eye contact and she would talk while looking at a 45 degree angle over my shoulder!!! I was trying to lead her (she had been super duper flirty over text prior to meeting), then in person she was a total dud and I would seriously say that I did not do anything wrong. So one response might be: yeah, she must be a dud, that’s why she’s single at 37?
Even the women who are not completely messed up Cluster Bs are very, very, very much bought into the feminism idea they’ve been pounded with their entire lives. They offer me *nothing* if they won’t even try to be fun and have a good time! I have reached the point in my journey that I will not apologize for my desires as a man, and I think I’m even conveying that in a non-butthurt way lately. These same women who (as GBFM used to say) have given it up dozens of times in their lives, NOW when they meet me, I’m supposed to wine and dine them on 6 dates before any sex?!? It’s bullshit. Like, they even sometimes kind of realize that they are asking for this and they feel because they have a vagina they are special and I should be happy to waste my money just to be in their presence, like it’s a privilege for me to spend money to watch them eat dinner? I am the prize, truly, and I truly have internalized that at this point. Except that I’m trying to be the FB like you; I’m pretty sure I will not get married again, in this environment, and perhaps they sense that? I might be having the opposite problem I used to have like being seen as too much of a player now? The thing is, some of these girls need a good night of fun and I can give it to them. They don’t know that, but I need to lead them. I’m trying.
I guess one thing is I need to go out and meet YOUNGER women who are “having their fun” now. Mid 30s on dating site is flat out looking for the beta bux at that point, right? That brings me back to my lack of social circle and lack of going out on weekends problem (I have my kids every weekend).
You wrote a good comment recently that squarely addressed my problem: late 30s, out of school, only a few friends who are married no social circle, not like being in college where socializing and opportunity for game happens automatically every day.
This past weekend I made an exception and went out with a woman on Saturday night (gave up night with my kids to do that). The woman noted above–had been totally cool and flirty by text and phone prior to meetup. Total waste of time because she was a flat out bitch who did not even try to have fun or relax, and I was “on” too. I was in a good mood and ready to have a good time (and yes I was groomed, I’m good looking, and I smelled good).
So I have a specific request for advice if you don’t mind: do you have any advice or good links to how (is it possible?) a guy and be successful WITHOUT A SOCIAL CIRCLE, only able to do dates on week nights? Yes this is trying to “cheat” and you might yell at me. I have to truly up my game and get same-night-lays if I am to have any sex life, at all. I have my kids on the weekends. I think I have a numbers problem for one thing—some girls are simply duds and I need a larger sample size. Thanks.
February 23rd, 2015 at 10:04 am
Going MGTOW is like being in the matrix and taking the blue pill.
February 23rd, 2015 at 10:07 am
447, great comment. Spot on.
February 23rd, 2015 at 10:10 am
no simon, you had the advantages of not being in generation X, which was royally fucked by you retarded boomers freeing women to destroy themselves and civilization when you boomers failed the massive societywide shit test.
February 23rd, 2015 at 10:23 am
@ anon
You’re just another Gen X wuss. Blaming boomers for everything is totally wussified.
February 23rd, 2015 at 10:25 am
@ anon
you retarded boomers freeing women to destroy themselves
Yeah, because the 17-27 boomer age group had so much fakking political power in the early 70s that it freed women to destroy themselves. Clueless.