I thought this was an interesting take from Striver in this week’s comments. I think this part has some merit…
Once gut level violence is tempered, men want to be the hero, the doer, who is rewarded for his deeds by a woman or women. Game is inherently feminine, an admission that women have won. Game involving talking and “communication” – does that sound masculine?
However, I disagree with him here…
As far as whether Game is necessary, any sex that doesn’t produce surviving offspring is just recreation. If your n count is 100, and no babies are produced or all potential babies are aborted, then it’s the same as n count 0 except for how it makes you feel. If women choose to sleep with the alpha players, then have babies with the beta shlubs, that’s the COMPLETE game.
This fundamentally ignores the biological root of women’s Hypergamy. The ideal evolutionary outcome is for a woman to optimize Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks. Ideally a woman who breeds and consolidates on monogamy with a man best exemplifying these aspects is the evolutionary “winner”. If that’s not possible, or not optimal, the ideal evolutionary winner is the woman who breeds with an Alpha Fucks man, and consolidates provisioning with a Beta Bucks man.
A lot of Blue Pill men feel a sense of vindication for the Epiphany Phase “success” they finally get with women once their long-term usefulness to women finally outweighs women’s ability to attract more Alpha Fucks ideal men. It’s a validation of their self-styled perseverance and some qualifier of what they convince themselves is the ‘real‘ attractiveness women have for that self-righteous Beta provisioning.
The fact is that this is an old-order, old-SMP misbelief. In all of the eras preceding the advent of unilaterally feminine controlled birth control both sexes shared in the social responsibility of controlling women’s innate Hypergamy (AF/BB). However left to her own, unconditioned, expectation to responsibly assume control of her Hypergamy, women default to separate ideals for Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks.
In other words, women prefer a breeding model that separates men into two different varieties – the kinds of men women want to fuck and the kind they want to marry – or “the kind of man your mother wants you to marry and the kind of guy you leave him for to be with.”
So ensaturated into our social fabric is this understanding that even men will reinforce the archetypes. I have a 16 year old daughter, and even Rollo Tomassi would want his girl to be with ‘truck guy’ instead of ‘girly car guy’. Across all generations it just makes better sense, right?
I’ve mentioned this before in the Myth of the Good Guy. It’s amazing to me that men still seem to think they can embody the nobler aspects of both the Alpha Jerk and the comforting Beta to become a mythical Good Guy that women will naturally recognize, appreciate and prefer in comparison to the Jerkish Alpha Bad Boy or the Sympish Beta Nice Guy. The sell is one of combining the best of both archetypes and thereby satisfying women’s need for an optimized Hypergamy.
The mistake in this, of course, is presuming women have the foresight to identify and appreciate the aspects that should satisfy an optimized state of Hypergamy. What Good Guys don’t consider is that women simply don’t have the depth of experience with men needed to recognize or appreciate ‘the best of both types’ at various phases of their maturity.
For instance, young women in their peak SMV years (22-24) are simply not the demographic of women who complain of men’s lack of maturity, their unwillingness to commit or how they need to Man Up and accept some ‘grown up’ responsibilities. Peak SMV age women aren’t concerned with long term commitments or provisioning from nice, dependable, Beta men – they’re too preoccupied with enjoying that SMV peak with Alpha lovers, and understand that offers of commitment from Beta men are cheap and plentiful.
Yet even for an older, presumedly wiser, generation, the resourceful Alpha “has more sex appeal” than the sensitive, attentive, comforting Beta Herb male.
“I’d Rather Cry Over An Asshole Than Date A Guy Who Bores Me”
At least with the dick, there’s a spark there — even if it’s just one you’re trying to catch. At least with the asshole, you’re wasting your time on someone entertaining. At least with the guy who’ll bring you undeniable rage and pain, there’s a feeling there.
The problem with Good Guy ambitions of being the best of both Alpha excitement and Beta comfort is that women are incapable of appreciating either of these aspects simultaneously. The predominant need women feel for Beta comfort, dependability and provisioning during their Epiphany Phase just prior to the Wall is unrelatable to a woman in her peak SMV years when her predominant sexual focus is on exciting Alpha recklessness.
I speculated in Myth of the Good Guy that in today’s sexual marketplace women simply don’t believe the average man is capable of being the best of both types. I still hold to that assertion – only apex Alpha celebrity men are in anyway believable, but mostly due to women creating this optimized character for themselves. However, and probably more importantly, women aren’t interested in Alpha excitement and Beta trustworthiness in the same place, in the same man, at the same time.
This separation of Alpha exciting men from dependable (but boring) Beta men is a direct result of the social “empowerment” women have been afforded, and socially engineered by the Feminine Imperative, for the past 5 generations.
This separate-guys-for-separate-purposes is the end game for Socialized Hypergamy – left to the unilateral control of women, Hypergamy doesn’t recognize men who embody a long term optimization of Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks. Instead Hypergamy, unfettered by social restraint, prefers short term mating with exciting, but dangerous Alpha genetic potential, and an enforced long term responsibility to the cuckoldry of parentally invested, emotionally invested, dependable Beta providers.
The separate need for these archetypes does not occur at the same time in a woman’s progression of maturity. In fact the only area of overlapping need for these types is exactly the pre-Wall ages of 29-31 for women (i.e. the Epiphany Phase), the age range when the majority consensus of women agree that they want to marry and settle down.
From a strictly evolutionary perspective Striver’s assertion that Betas get the last laugh in the genetic olympics is correct. Nice Guys may finish last, but no one says they don’t finish at all. But do they finish best?
Unfortunately, on a subconscious level, women’s sexual strategies, which then translate into social doctrine, develop contingencies for duping Betas into provisioning for children not their own, or are ‘outsourced’ as parents once they’ve been removed from the family unit. Either that or they’re relegated to progressively sexless status of nominally male providership and parental investment.
A Beta fathering children is common, but there’s more to raising a child than just the combining of alleles.
You’ll notice I titled this post “Are the cads outbanging the dads?” That was deliberate, because there remain questions about whether cads are actually breeding more or less than dads. Outbanging is different than outbreeding. A woman could casually ignore potential beta dads throughout her teens and 20s (her prime years) for a sterile ride on the cock carousel with alpha males, only to settle down later with a beta male and bear him 1.8 children. Cheap and easy contraceptives thwart the natural procreation advantage that alpha males would normally have over beta males in the state of nature, so it is very possible that alpha males could be winning the Banging Sweepstakes while losing the Breeding Sweepstakes.
Evidence that cad outbanging and supercharged female hypergamy is occurring resides in the later age of first marriage rates, and the lower overall marriage rate, as well as the higher STD rates among women.
And there is evidence for cad outbreeding as well. Serial monogamy — which is a form of soft polygyny — is on the rise, and men who have had more than one partner have more childrenthan men married to one woman.
On the other side of the debate are the GSS (General Social Survey) gurus who marshal self-reported evidence that dads are winning the breeding wars over cads.
I remain skeptical of the GSS data, but give it its due. My contention has never been that cads are having more children, but rather that cads are having more premarital sex than dads with higher quality (read: better looking) women when those women are in their sexual primes. This, not the discrepancy in fertility rates between alpha and beta males, is the contraceptively-aided shock wave that is roiling the sexual market and upending organic rules thousands, perhaps millions, of years old.
A society of both cad ascendence and civilization is unsustainable and incompatible. One or the other will go, and the pendulum with either swing back to dads or civilization will regress to accommodate the rise of women choosing cads. All social and economic indicators (particularly the debt overhang), and my personal experience in the bowels of the dating market, lead me to be pessimistic about a happy resolution to this building tension. Hopefully, I’m wrong, but in the meantime I’ll do what is necessary to secure my pleasure.
If the Chevy Colorado commercial is any gauge of our current sexual marketplace (and I realize it was supposed to be satirical), the female meta-desire for Alpha breeding opportunities far outstrips any notion that more Beta men are the preferred long-term parental mating choice of optimized Hypergamy.
This commercial is yet another shinning example of mainstream society’s increasing comfort with Open Hypergamy. In that post I outlined the conflict that occurs between women comfortable and prideful about revealing the duplicity of their sexual strategy, and the women less able to capitalize on that openness and cling to a secretive Hypergamy. However, men too are invested in that conflict.
When laws mandate a father be held financially and provisionally responsible for children that are not biologically his own (either by his choice or a woman’s overt cuckoldry) you can see how Hypergamy is literally an imperative that directs men’s lives to optimize it. In a social order founded upon women’s unrestricted Hypergamous influences no man, Truck Guy or Prius Guy, is ever truly the father of his child.
February 7th, 2015 at 3:46 pm
“For instance, young women in their peak SMV years (22-24) are simply not the demographic of women who complain of men’s lack of maturity, their unwillingness to commit or how they need to Man Up and accept some ‘grown up’ responsibilities. Peak SMV age women aren’t concerned with long term commitments or provisioning from nice, dependable, Beta men – they’re too preoccupied with enjoying that SMV peak with Alpha lovers, and understand that offers of commitment from Beta men are cheap and plentiful.”
I think Rollo may be a bit outdated here. I’m 24, and since I was 19, I’ve come across women – who are the same age as me; between 19-24 – that have complained at me precisely because of my unwillingness to commit, and have also told me I need to Man Up and accept some ‘grown up’ responsibilities.
It’s isn’t just me either, I know other, young, game aware men that are experiencing this often, even after one-night stand situations: I, and they, have met women who would have liked me to take it further and wanted me to commit, despite it being a one-night stand. A few of them even went ghost on me after they’ve realised our fling was just that.
February 7th, 2015 at 3:54 pm
Sun Wukong
If all your current behaviors suddenly became the most repulsive thing to women, would you continue doing them? If being physically fit offered you no benefit and in fact was a liability to getting laid would you still do it?
February 7th, 2015 at 4:28 pm
@cervantesscthree
Do you think this may be a Beta Bait-type shit test on these women’s part?
That is, their forebrain thinks commitment is what they’re “supposed” to want, so as to avoid the slut label (and the feeling inside that they’re ‘bad’ for having had a one-night stand or sexual experience outside of a commitment), but they’re acting on their hindbrain desire for the Alpha bang? After all, they did spread ’em without the commitment being tangibly there…
I don’t think any woman (or at least very few) in any type of civilized, respectable social group/setting, will admit that she’ll take the cock without the commitment – or at least the potential of commitment. I think even in less civilized groups & settings this is probably the case – very few females will willingly accept & flaunt open knowledge of their promiscuity and easiness. It’s programmed in their DNA.
However, as we know, their words and actions are most often diametrically opposed…
My theory:
They throw the Beta Bait out there to see if you’ll bow to their pressure for commitment. If you cave in too quickly and take the bait, they then have their social validation (“my boyfriend!”), but they lose respect for you because taking the bait would be a Beta Tell in their estimation, and they’ll probably cheat on you to get their AF fix – especially at that age.
If you resist the bait, they lose respect for themselves, cut bait, and go try fishing in other waters using the same tactics. If they catch a fish, you might get them again later as a booty call when they’re cheating on their Beta boyfriend…
It’s a dance, I say! You’ve got to spin plates keep ’em guessing. One plate falls, no big deal when you have a few of them spinning, don’t get complacent, and are always alert to add more.
February 7th, 2015 at 4:35 pm
@Mentats!
If all your current behaviors suddenly became the most repulsive thing to women, would you continue doing them?
Depends which ones we’re talking about. Cocky & Funny? Agree & Amplify? Amused mastery?
If being physically fit offered you no benefit and in fact was a liability to getting laid would you still do it?
… that’s your choice? Dumb scenario for two reasons:
1) That’s not part of Game. That’s part of what I do and have always done to be happy with myself. Game is a set of behaviors and mentalities I am working to internalize for the purpose of getting laid. Being in shape is just basic maintenance every human on the planet should be doing regardless. Everyone here, whether Blue Pill simp, Red Pill player, or lone wolf MGTOW should be in shape. Period. This is not a part of Game. It’s a prerequisite for being a happy human being which also happens to be a prerequisite for being capable of making Game work.
2) Won’t ever happen. Ever. Never in the history of man has being a slow, flabby blob been an advantage and never will it be. It’s not an evolutionary advantage unless all the food on the planet instantly vanished tomorrow, and even then it would probably get a month or two tops before you were dead anyway.
But let’s pretend for a moment it could happen: yes I would continue being fit. Why? Because fuck a bitch’s opinion. If I do something that truly makes me a happier person and furthers my success in the long run, and a bitch expects me to sacrifice that for her, I don’t need her. That’s the thing about Game: nothing it asks of me impedes my progress in other aspects of my life. In fact, generally it says “Hey the better you make the shit in your life that has nothing to do with Game directly, the easier Game gets.”
If I have to alter my tactics (and for individual women you do have to make tweaks to them on the fly), then I’ll do that. But if I have the alter the overall strategy of doing things that make my life better for me? That’s not a thing I do. Fortunately, nothing in Game encourages that and most likely never will.
February 7th, 2015 at 4:47 pm
This article will make the MMSL crowd’s head explode.
February 7th, 2015 at 5:55 pm
Altering any behavior, no matter how small, to get laid makes you a slave to women. You “game” and PUA people aren’t much better than bluepill betas. You’re doing it to please them, not yourself. You’re protestations otherwise are the the rationalization hamster spinning in its wheel.
I’m not going to play this stupid game. I can’t win. No one is holding a gun to my head. I do not have to date/have sex with anyone. Saying I’m in it whether I want to be or not is bullshit. It’s just people trying to justify their lifestyle and saying I have to adopt theirs.
February 7th, 2015 at 6:03 pm
For the good of the human genome, I will bang my way across Asia. I’ll keep a log of each woman I stay with, and then come to visit each town a few years later to repeat the process and to observe any progeny.
February 7th, 2015 at 6:11 pm
Altering any behavior, no matter how small, to get food makes you a slave to food. You’re doing it to please food, not yourself. Your protestations otherwise are the the rationalization hamster eating fast food
(btw only your first “you’re” was right, see above)
February 7th, 2015 at 6:19 pm
That’s what I get for post comments when I’m upset.
February 7th, 2015 at 6:23 pm
Hyperagamy and the dual AFBB didn’t occur in a vacuum, the bifurcation of societal norms facilitated the exploitation. The difference between Institutional societal norms (monogamy) and the actual culture (serial polygyny) has allowed women to be shielded from the consequences of their actions.
The Bureaucratic Institutional culture doesn’t reflect the actual change on the ground, the legal system (always the most conservative and last to change), religion, government, established media, education etc., are all operating under the monogamy script. So much so that they’re even trying to force homosexuals into the monogamy paradigm.
It’s interesting to observe that Institutional repression is a hallmark of the decline of Institutional norms, the Soviet Union, Apartheid, Jim Crow Laws etc., all required repression to maintain the status quo.
The majority of the readers of MRAs are under 25 and atheists, it goes to show young men are feeling the repression the most and are adapting to the changed conditions.
The internet has allowed young men the opportunity to peer under the ugly underbelly of AFBB, it will be interesting to see how the younger men will react forewarned with the knowledge older men had to discover on their own.
February 7th, 2015 at 6:28 pm
“That’s what I get for post comments when I’m upset”
the anger phase is okay, unless you’re stuck there
February 7th, 2015 at 6:40 pm
10×10
“But you should know, marriages of more than 8 year age difference are statistically rare ”
Lol my whole LIFE has been “statistically rare”.
Remember I’m talking 10-15 years from now. 10-15 years ago in like 1999 we couldn’t conceive of girls running sexually rampant, naked selfies left and right, tinder ONS shopping, hookup culture all over the place.
Society changes and I’m just calling out the trend I’m noticing. 10-15 years is:
– enough time for me to get my career on track and my finances handled
– enough time for these 40yo feminists to be old and lonely and for their bastard daughters and nieces to see them as a warning sign of what happens if you don’t lock a man down early
– enough time for mgtow red pill etc to grow
– enough time for girls to figure out that the way to land a high value guy is to bring more to the table than other girls
A lot of these young chicks are out fucking left and right because 1) feminism encourages it and there don’t seem to be any consequences cause their currently 40yo feminist aunt might still land her Mr Big and 2) the guys they’re around are too lame to commit to. The ones who want commitment are super manginas. A girl will commit to a man she’s fully attracted to but a lot of the time these girls treat these guys the way we might bang a fatty and then be like “ok well I’ll call you a cab” and dodge their texts for a month lol
…and 5 million? 10 million??? wtf lol if I’m walkin around the mall lookin at couples I can pretty much guarantee none of them are sitting on 5 mill and are doing just fine lol
(it should be noted that I don’t actually want marriage etc but I always account for the possibility that my wants may change down the road so this is my plan if that happens)
This isn’t even taking into account the option to allow my girl(s) to keep a BB around on the side who just hands her money with getting sex out of it. Or have her live stream playing league of legends in a low cut shirt with a patron account and she’ll be crowdsourcing fortunes out of beta males for us lol
@cervantesscthree
“I think Rollo may be a bit outdated here. I’m 24, and since I was 19, I’ve come across women – who are the same age as me; between 19-24 – that have complained at me precisely because of my unwillingness to commit, and have also told me I need to Man Up and accept some ‘grown up’ responsibilities.
It’s isn’t just me either, I know other, young, game aware men that are experiencing this often, even after one-night stand situations: I, and they, have met women who would have liked me to take it further and wanted me to commit, despite it being a one-night stand. A few of them even went ghost on me after they’ve realised our fling was just that.”
This is along the lines of what I’ve noticed too. It’s not common yet but I’m finding a surprising number of <25yo chicks who are eschewing the whole "let's suck 5000 cocks feminism grrrlpower woo!!" and, while they'll still hook up, they seem to be looking for longer term commitment from those hookups. It's not rampant, like 1 in 5 maybe but that's a lot compared to 10 years ago.
They haven't figured out they have to bring cooking cleaning positive attitude a love of exercise etc to the table yet but I'm noticing the seeds more these days and it's probably a combination of my value increasing over time and my age being in the "he might be ready to settle" age range (there are at least 2 <25yo girls I talk to regularly who would happily settle with me right now if I wanted it), and of them looking at older unhappy lonely bitter feminists and their damaged lonely single moms and realizing maybe that isn't the best path for them to follow.
There's a reason a the #womenagainstfeminism girls tend to be better looking and more feminine than the Jezebel crowd and girls are more into exercise and yoga and Zumba and all that shit and Rollos daughter doesn't have 2 Instagram accounts and why girls are checking out the red pill etc. They haven't fully figured out WHAT to bring to the table because no one will flat out tell them "be hot, pleasant, and cook dinner" but they're starting to look for an "edge" and the seeds are there and will grow over the next couple generations.
Listening to the doom n gloomers in the Manosphere every girl in North America is 300lbs selfish bitch sucking 50 dicks a night, but those guys generally aren't actually out picking up the <25yo crowd on a regular basis. They get one selfish 22yo club rat type a year and declare the sky is falling and everyone jumps on the whining bandwagon lol
There's a shift happening. It'll be very slow but it's coming.
February 7th, 2015 at 6:47 pm
*”…hands her money withOUT getting sex out of it.”
Important fix there my bad lol
February 7th, 2015 at 6:52 pm
@Mentats!
You’re just coming up with rationalizations and excuses instead of having the balls to go and get more out of life. Whether due to internal or external forces, to get more out of life you have to change. Period. You keep doing the same shit, you’re going to keep getting the same shit. You want to get better, you have to be better. Money, power, women, friends… it doesn’t matter what you’re talking about. You want it, you have to change to get it.
I chose what I wanted and making changes is a consequence of that decision. You let your fear and laziness rule you. I choose not to. You sound fucking miserable, and I’m not. Bottom line: my strategy is improving my life and yours is doing… nothing for you.
That’s your right, but don’t expect me to concede that you’ve got some kind of magical frame control that I don’t. You don’t, and you never will so long as you keep letting fear and laziness make your choices for you.
February 7th, 2015 at 6:58 pm
@YaReally
I hope you’re right, man. I hope I’m lucky enough to catch some of the beginnings of that shift.
February 7th, 2015 at 7:00 pm
@Kid Jupiter
. . . I think you’ve hit the nail on the head there:
“They throw the Beta Bait out there to see if you’ll bow to their pressure for commitment. If you cave in too quickly and take the bait, they then have their social validation (“my boyfriend!”), but they lose respect for you because taking the bait would be a Beta Tell in their estimation, and they’ll probably cheat on you to get their AF fix – especially at that age.”
I have to agree with that, no more than that: that’s the fact of the matter. I say this because your statement here is something I have experienced:
“If you resist the bait, they lose respect for themselves, cut bait, and go try fishing in other waters using the same tactics. If they catch a fish, you might get them again later as a booty call when they’re cheating on their Beta boyfriend…”
One girl who had explicitly told me after I had slept her that the reason why she wanted to stop seeing me was because I wasn’t serious. I saw again a year later on a night out, and I was certain I was going to sleep with her yet again until her boyfriend appeared later on and warned me to lean back. So, there you have it.
But still, a woman I have been involved with for some time, who’s 22, has bugged me for years to settle, commit and start a family ASAP. And I’m not the only one to experience this. One of her reasons for pestering me about this, is that she doesn’t want to be that “older woman with regrets”. Is there a possibility a younger generation of women are seeing the lies of feminism and how women have suffered as a result? And want to cash in whilst their SMV are at their highest, as well as the their capacity to bear children?
February 7th, 2015 at 7:31 pm
@ Mentats How old are you? Based on your posts, I’m guessing you are under 25 and likely still a teenager, and were raised in a privileged, pampered manner having all your material needs provided for you by your parents while you play video games and contribute nothing of value to the world. Because this idea you have that one should never have to make a modicum of effort or do anything one doesn’t want to do in order to get the things they want in life — and that to do otherwise makes one a slave — is not reflective of a person who has ever had to actually live in the the real world.
Here’s the deal: every single thing in the world that has value, whether that be a bite of food, a roof over one’s head, the leisure time to enjoy entertainment, or sex, requires you to make effort and provide value in order to get it. Want food? You better grow it, kill it, or expend effort to get money so you can buy it from someone else who grew it or killed it. Want sex from an attractive person? You better expend effort to be attractive yourself. Everything of value requires you to provide value. And providing value requires effort and doing a lot of shit you don’t want to do. The ONLY PEOPLE in the universe who will not require you to expend effort to provide value are your parents and grandparents, and that’s only because you provide them with the inherent value of carrying their genes into the future after they die. No one else gives a shit about you or wants to give you anything (including their time, attention, or affection — all things of value) unless you’re providing value to them. You don’t deserve a damn thing and aren’t entitled to a damn thing just because you exist. You want a girl to give you her attention, affection, and sex? Well, that requires her to expend effort to look attractive and be kind and pay attention to you. You have to provide things in return: look attractive, be fun and funny and interesting, be good in bed. And if that’s all just too much for you, then go ahead and complain that life is unfair and requires too much work and that doing anything other than what you want every second is too hard and makes one a slave. But understand that those are the conditions every single living creature on earth was born into, you’re no exception, and you sound like a whiny little brat who can’t even appreciate that you at least got the chance to experience life for a brief stint before you return to nonexistence. If you want to never have to expend effort to gain anything, perhaps you would prefer to be a rock.
“Game” does not change the fundamental fact of the universe that getting anything you want requires effort and requires you to provide value, and that inherently means doing things you don’t “want” to do because all organisms are designed to “want” to conserve rather than expend energy. Game is only a strategy to make getting sex, affection, and attention easier and more efficient. If you want to use less efficient methods or you decide the value you receive is not worth the value expended, that’s your choice. But don’t blame game when really your complaint is actually against the fundamental nature of the universe. You sound like a brat who has spent your life consuming media that’s conditioned you into thinking it’s reasonable to expect to get something for nothing.
February 7th, 2015 at 7:35 pm
I just don’t want to expend the effort for women. They aren’t worth the effort. I’d rather focus my energy on things I do like.
February 7th, 2015 at 7:44 pm
@ cerveantescthree and YaReally Just curious: are these bitter, regretful 40-year old feminists who failed to lock down a man actually reflective of any human beings you have ever met? Or just a hypothetical figment of your imagination? I have never met anyone who meets that description so I’m curious if you actually have experience of this in real life or if it’s just a trope. I know plenty of women in their 40s, most of whom are busy with their work and children and too exhausted to spend time contemplating regrets or bitterness. I also know plenty who are single, have great jobs, and they are usually some of the happiest people I know and seem to enjoy their lives and their freedom quite well. The only “bitter” 40 year old women I know are the ones who married young, had kids, never worked, and then divorced so they’re now stuck with no money, no freedom, no marketable job skills, no desirable men who are interested in them, and very limited options. But the ones who either never married or who divorced but have good jobs and their own earning power seem to be perfectly fine.
February 7th, 2015 at 7:44 pm
@Rollo –
What I think you are describing is a dis-entwining double-helix. It’s helical because each side -male and female- can be said to take a wave form of moving more towards “alpha” behavior and more towards “beta” behavior where “alpha” and “beta” apply to both sides. Think “alpha” woman as smoking hot with all sexual-arousal indicators dialed to 10, think “beta” woman as plain or even homely, but with child-raising, motherly features dialed up to 10.
Women of course can be strong mixes of both.
Men of course – in their own way that I don’t need to elaborate on here – can also be strong mixes of both.
As you traverse history what you see – I think anyway…working theory here…is that because strong social customs of monogamy held tight it caused men and women, BOTH, to try to raise their status in BOTH arenas – being both sexually attractive to the opposite gender, and being worthy providers and child-rearers.
Also – side note – but the “conservative”, so-con, “traditional” view on child-rearing that holds that men were ALL provider and women were ALL care-giver tends not to hold up against anthropology. This view is a hanger-on from Victorian and Edwardian times – industrial revolution era. In most of human history:
Women raised babies and toddlers, and labored, really hard.
Men raised children, and labored, really hard.
This dynamic is reflected in Talmudic guidance on divorce – children under 7 live with mom – children above 7 live with dad. Dad was a very active participant in child-rearing – and frankly – my guess is they were very good at it, and enjoyed it.
Anyway … all the forces you are describing have served to sever the bonds linking the double-helix: the alpha/beta helix, so that where in previous times one person tried hard to be a lot of both, in modern times we are seeing an emergence of men – and women – both tapering off into one or the other.
Think about men in the 60s, 70s, 80s. Such men were raised, cultivated and encouraged to express “alpha” features, but in the context of monogamy.
Do this – watch a few TV shows from that era and notice the married men. They will typically come across in certain fundamental ways as “beta” to our present sensibilities – and yet they persistently make “alpha” decisions when called upon.
The splicing of the alpha/beta double-helix is occurring with both men and women. Women are experiencing what it feels like to be “all beta, no alpha” … and they are complaining vociferously. The problem is that their complaints – at least as of present moment – are rechanneled to further advance the helical splicing, i.e.: men are to be MORE beta, but treating beta women like they are alphas – I think what you would call “feminine imperative”.
February 7th, 2015 at 7:46 pm
@ Mentats Fair enough. That’s a perfectly reasonable position. However, you seemed angry about it as if you thought that you *should* be able to get them without expending energy. That would be unreasonable. But if you just don’t think the gain is worth the effort and that you can make better gains elsewhere, that’s sound.
February 7th, 2015 at 7:57 pm
@ Bluedog Good analogy, and I would say that the increased “specialization” of men and women is also reflected in increased specialization in any other skill, like in academics or science. More technology means greater specialization and people don’t have to be everything. It also means people can pick and choose what elements provide value to them and seek out the most specialized, “best” people for each need.
All of the theorizing here about politics and ideology, etc, are mostly irrelevant because the changes we see are driven by and governed by technology and that’s it. Culture follows technology not the other way around. Technology gives people greater options and allows them to not have to compromise or settle as often. It’s because of technology that women can now enjoy men purely for their sex appeal and not have to worry about the other stuff because technology allows for a life of safety, security, and material abundance without worrying about violence and survival concerns. It’s technology that allows men to enjoy so much sex from so many women and not have to worry about babies. If you gave the stoic, monogamous, hardy Silent Generation all the material abundance and options that technology makes possible today, they would act exactly the same way that young people are acting in 2015.
February 7th, 2015 at 8:11 pm
we drop Kate into northen Iraq, where she says:
“it’s because of technology that women can now enjoy men purely for their sex appeal and not have to worry about the other stuff because technology allows for a life of safety, security, and material abundance without worrying about violence and survival concerns”
the crowd cheers!
February 7th, 2015 at 8:18 pm
“I’m 24, and since I was 19, I’ve come across women – who are the same age as me; between 19-24 – that have complained at me precisely because of my unwillingness to commit, and have also told me I need to Man Up and accept some ‘grown up’ responsibilities.”
Wanting a ‘boyfriend’ and desiring marriage are two different things. A one night stand isn’t called a pump and dump for nothing and no woman likes being dumped.
Black Dragon coined the term ‘new relationship energy’, these so called commitment types are constantly chasing the ‘new relationship energy’ and want the option to bow out when things get boring.
If women really want commitment then why won’t they revoke no fault divorce?
They want the option to be married when they feel like it and bow out whenever they feel like it.
February 7th, 2015 at 8:28 pm
@Kryptokate – well said.
Yes – the specialization we are seeing in human relationships is almost surely a tributary of one great river of specialization that is sweeping – everything.
That too shows the danger of swallowing too hard on ideologies – including “red pill”. There may be insights but they shouldn’t be confused for a unified theory or – god forbid – empirical reality. Rollo is probably on to something with the “feminine imperative” because when you add up all women’s preferences and add and subtract each individual’s contribution, you get a certain, overall social vector – the vector behaves with choices in some respects like a “group mind” that can be attributed back to women, but it isn’t any one person’s mind and possibly if women could take a conscious vote, they’d vote against its results (if not it’s causes). The same holds true for men.
But yes also … technology is doing this and your observation about stoic, monogamous Silent Generation is spot on.
Good news is it actually is not all new under the sun. Imperial Rome and Byzantium knew something of this – about what life is like and what a free agent needs to do to live a fulfilling life – in a time of abundance. What comes to us from the Greco-Roman philosophers has a lot to say about all of this … stoics especially … for that matter.
Christianity is breaking down under the strain – I wonder if the Christian era was a sort of mid-wife phase necessary to get us to post-tribal. People are too little aware of how far it went that the Emperor Justinian went ape-sh*t and shut down the “pagan” temples and schools. The western conversion to Christianity was not entirely sanguine. There were several competing lifestyle philosophies in Imperial times that may have more to offer nowadays when we can’t count on Christianity to make people tow the monogamy line – I mention this because you mention stoics and Stoicism is high on the list. I think we’ll see a re-emergence and resurgence of these – not because people are forced to be stoics, Silent Generation style, but because people come to realize they have to make different choices to have thriving lives and folks in and around Athens had a lot to say about this that maybe deserves as much attention as we persist in trying to give to the guy from Galilee and his modern spokesmen.
February 7th, 2015 at 8:36 pm
“red pill” … shouldn’t be confused for … empirical reality
have you decided to specialize in horseshit or bullshit?
February 7th, 2015 at 8:50 pm
Kryptokate – “It’s because of technology that women can now enjoy men purely for their sex appeal and not have to worry about the other stuff because technology allows for a life of safety, security, and material abundance without worrying about violence and survival concerns.”
Only so long as Men do all if the heavy lifting. If every woman took the next 30 days off from work civilization would be inconvenienced no doubt. But if every man took the next 30 days off the civilization would collapse.
Your argument only works if 50% of the dirty jobs are being done by women. The next time I see an all female crew stringing transmission lines will be the first.
In last six months I’ve two women on the job site that were actual trsdesmen. TWO out of almost 250 people. On all the pipelines I’ve worked there’s been fewer than 10% female employees, and most of those make work jobs, favors for foreman, or perks for others by hiring their wives and daughters. I’ve seen maybe a dozen women in that line of work who were actually there to work, and yes they were terrific for the most part.
So what I am saying is the labor is providing survival for women in very direct and tangible ways. The labor of women not so much in the aggregate.
February 7th, 2015 at 8:52 pm
@Ya Really
I agree with you completely,but Kid Jupiter also had a strong analysis of this that I support too, he says that:
“They throw the Beta Bait out there to see if you’ll bow to their pressure for commitment. If you cave in too quickly and take the bait, they then have their social validation (“my boyfriend!”), but they lose respect for you because taking the bait would be a Beta Tell in their estimation, and they’ll probably cheat on you to get their AF fix – especially at that age.
If you resist the bait, they lose respect for themselves, cut bait, and go try fishing in other waters using the same tactics. If they catch a fish, you might get them again later as a booty call when they’re cheating on their Beta boyfriend…”
But what you stay still applies, and saying “They haven’t figured out they have to bring cooking cleaning positive attitude a love of exercise etc to the table yet . . .” has had me laughing! It’s true. I’m not surprised there are young women that are prepared to settle with you given the fantasy feminism has sold them. In my case, these women are university educated and would put everything on hold just to give it a shot, they’re not the naive teenager. I can’t blame them for steering away from that path many older women took either.
You make a good case there regarding #womenagainstfeminism girls, they are a better bunch than the regular feminists, and I do hope there is a change brewing, but I’m not optimistic
Hahaha, it’s the same here in the UK: there are a lot of playas saying the same about the quality of women here when there are in fact a couple hotties left, but it is based on fact: the quality of the majority of women today is far from show stopping, and more than half of them are club rats, well, from what I know and see.
@Kyrpto Kate
I’ve met them, they’ve been my teachers, managers, friends parents and so on. Well we both know you’re lying don’t when you say you’ve never met anyone that fits that description don’t we? And I never said every woman was unhappy, apologies if I implied this. It’s funny you say that, because the stuff I have said, even what I said of women having been lied to by feminism regarding the longevity of their SMV, has all come out of women’s mouths. If you have beef with what I’ve said, take your comments to the women that I got the information from. And if you’re happy, why are you ploughing through a blog that’s clearly aimed at men shooting down every statement? I’m a happy man, and I’ve never felt the need to even visit a site aimed at women that discusses men.
You’ve only got one life Kate, and I can guarantee that for YOU here is not where it’s worth spending. Your presence won’t change anything and you’re always going to disagree what you find here so do your existence a favour and and spend your time somewhere else.
February 7th, 2015 at 9:07 pm
@redlight, re: February 7th, 2015 at 8:36 pm,
…you get precisely one reply to content with that language and that is only because I am assuming you are just feeling hair trigger and will come to your senses.
I take “red pill” to be the name of ideas – ideas like “alpha and beta”, ideas like “feminine imperative”.
These ideas amount to testable hypotheses which may work sometimes, and other times don’t.
That is categorically different from “empirical reality”.
E=mc2 is an idea. A testable one. Not to be confused with empirical reality.
Now – speaking of “red pill”, gotta go, it’s Saturday evening and Bluedog has a life.
February 7th, 2015 at 9:08 pm
I take “red pill”
either in the ass or orally
“you get precisely one reply to content with that language”
fuck off
February 7th, 2015 at 9:18 pm
“I’d Rather Cry Over An Asshole Than Date A Guy Who Bores Me”
These truths are self evident. Here’s to making them cry….
February 7th, 2015 at 9:27 pm
@Mentats: “I just don’t want to expend the effort for women.”
Then don’t…Expend efforts for YOU & yours!!! (Hobbies, cars, bikes, talents, your children!)
February 7th, 2015 at 9:39 pm
@Kate
Really?
Do you own lots of weapons Kate? Are you armed to the teeth? Are you highly skilled with those weapons? Do you ever travel to areas, for work or pleasure, where you must be unarmed? If so, do you reply on the police (95% male)? In all situations, are you able to use technology to repel any male who might try to rob you or rape you in all cases?
It sounds to me like, it’s not technology that made it possible for women to “not worry about the other stuff”… it’s men who did that for you.
It’s an important distinction, and one that women willingly ignore in order to pretend that equalism works, or that their accomplishments reflect solely on their own merits.
February 7th, 2015 at 10:03 pm
@Mentats!
This does not follow. Humans are adaptable creatures, that’s the greatest strength we have. If you’re going to argue for non-adaptability, you’re arguing against being human. Arguing for obstinate, set-in-stone personalities and behavior patterns is arguing against humanity’s greatest strength.
You could rephrase your statement like this:
“Altering how you sow your crops in Frontier America, no matter how small a change, just makes you a slave to mother nature.”
But certainly you can see the problem with that argument, it could literally kill you if you tried to justify your actions with such thinking. While the analogy you present is conceivably correct, it misses the greater point. That point is that human beings adapt to optimize their results in life. We always have, and always will. That’s how we’ve gone from living in caves to landing people on the Moon in less than .0025% of the earth’s lifetime.
Adapt or die, that’s life. You can cling to old ways of doing things, or you can embrace learning something new, and be a better person for it.
February 7th, 2015 at 10:03 pm
@Kate
@bluedog
“That too shows the danger of swallowing too hard on ideologies – including “red pill”. There may be insights but they shouldn’t be confused for a unified theory or – god forbid – empirical reality.”
It’s not “who makes the most convincing insight arguments”. It’s mass crowdsourced reference experiences of hundreds of thousands of men over 10+ years compared and analyzed for consistent patterns.
@cerveantescthree
“Kid Jupiter also had a strong analysis of this that I support too, he says that”
ya I understand what he’s saying and I agree with it (and the reasons why they bail after), ’cause that dynamic has always been there, but I’m not sure how to describe the difference between the “fish for a boyfriend” shit-test and the “no but seriously, please settle down with me ASAP I don’t want to ride the cock carousel” thing that’s starting to sprout.
I think the difference would be that in both cases the guy is attractive and high-value to her, but in the shit-test version of it if the guy holds his frame and won’t do an LTR she’ll still “take what she can get” and keep banging him…whereas what I’m seeing now is more that the guy is high-value and attractive to her, but when he won’t go for an LTR she tries to overwrite her wiring and bails completely and tries to find a high-value guy who WILL commit.
It doesn’t work most of the time of course. Like the pattern I notice is the girl will go off to find an LTR guy but the guy will end up being lame or the LTR will end up being boring and I get a txt from her and she either dumps him to come bang me again or cheats on him with me because the sex is more exciting.
Like, it’s not a GOOD strategy yet, and as I said they haven’t figured out exactly what to bring to the table yet to make high-value guys want to commit in 2015 (like the girls who want me to LTR them don’t realize that “oh I hate cooking I just eat out or microwave stuff” makes me rule them out as potential LTR/mother-of-my-kids material), but it’s like watching a baby try to take its first steps and stumble and fall over. The seed seems to be planted and I think down the road it’s going to take root.
“In my case, these women are university educated and would put everything on hold just to give it a shot, they’re not the naive teenager.”
Right, this is the type I notice it with too. I find the <22yos are still in that naive teenager phase, but the 22-26 educated (and hot, the girls I'm thinking of as I write this have all been solid 8+s and feminine) crowd is where the shift seems to be happening. I'm also noticing these girls tend not to drink much either. Usually they're the DDs for their friends or just don't go out very often…when they DO they get white girl wasted and txt me ridiculous shit lol, but like they're 23yo and living in the middle of a large city and often have friends who party and get wasted, yet they themselves aren't in the bars throwing back doubles and shots every weekend because it will fuck them up for running their marathon the next morning.
Also they don't seem to want kids just YET, they still want to try the feminism career thing, but like, they seem to realize that it's a good idea to lock a man down (basically calling "dibs" on him) and THEN focus on your career VS focusing on your career before locking a man down. I've heard <25yo girls who are in the initial stages of a career say the phrase "I want kids, but not for another 10 years" a lot. Like they want to lock a guy down so that when the baby clock starts ticking at 30 they have a good high-value man and a solid relationship to introduce kids into. I don't want to say they aren't INTERESTED in riding the cock carousel anymore because the ramifications of that would be too insane and we still see a trend toward open Hypergamy and openly running the BB/AF strategy…but it seems like the spark of a thought process like "I know I have access to a million guys with Tinder Facebook bars, etc. I have unlimited access to BB and AF…but because I have that much choice I can choose a solid high-value guy who can provide both the bucks and the fucks…I can ditch this high-value guy who won't commit because I have so many men to choose from that I can probably find a guy just as high-value who WILL commit (but of course she can't because most guys turn out to be lame or if they're awesome thy don't want to commit)".
Again this is still a verrrry small percent, and it's still totally possible to bang these girls and override their attempts to override their programming, but the fact that this is happening at ALL tells me there's a potential shift starting up because I never saw this at ALL 5-10 years ago, and even in just this thread there are a few guys reporting noticing the same trend like this:
"But still, a woman I have been involved with for some time, who’s 22, has bugged me for years to settle, commit and start a family ASAP. And I’m not the only one to experience this. One of her reasons for pestering me about this, is that she doesn’t want to be that “older woman with regrets”. Is there a possibility a younger generation of women are seeing the lies of feminism and how women have suffered as a result? And want to cash in whilst their SMV are at their highest, as well as the their capacity to bear children?"
I think this is what's happening. Despite Kate's NAWALT insistence (let me guess your friends are all "vivacious" and "gorgeous" too), hot young sexy <25yo chicks aren't reading Jezebel. It's all disgusting damaged land whales and single moms and old sagging cougars and shit. Those women found Feminism when Feminists were in their early 20s, no one knew how that little "have it all sex & the city" experiment would pan out yet, but despite
It's like the raptor in Jurassic Park lol…clever girls, they're learning.
I think this'll take a solid couple generations to come into full effect, but this is my prediction based on my observations and logic. I don't care about optimism or ideal realities or anything, like I'm not thinking "boy I hope that's how it works out!", all I care about is cold hard experience. If my experience (and the experience of guys I know) showed me that, say, all men are unattractive past 35, I would be locking down a girl for an LTR tomorrow. In fact, that's how I thought it was going to go back when I was in my late 20s. I was geared up to potentially have to settle down by 35. Then "something" happened in society and I started seeing this shift and now I have a rejuvenated energy for staying single through my 30s into my 40s bare minimum. Settling earlier seems just silly…even if I found a great girl tomorrow, in 10 years I could find thousands more girls all potentially just as great and years younger/hotter and, if my theory holds up, potentially coming with greater assets (cooking, healthy lifestyles, etc.). I'm not seeing any reason to cash my chips in early when I notice the casino is suddenly open extended hours lol
Also I don't think most of the Manosphere would agree with me on this lol Like the "all north american women are horrible, EE and Asia has all the perfect girls there!!" mentality is huge. I'm like that guy who just noticed that the electric fence around Jurassic Park flickered off for a split second and as everyone walks off he stares at the fence thinking "hmm that might be something to keep an eye on…"
More on my theory here:
http://yareallyarchive.com/2015/1/#comment-heartiste-643612
I should officially coin a name for it…The YaReally Reversion Theory. lol Because I think we're going to see women VOLUNTARILY (that's the biggest mind-fuck part of it) "revert" to 1940s type gender roles within a couple generations. They'll still be "feminists" but it'll be like Feminism+ where they've rationalized that being a good housewife is empowering.
February 8th, 2015 at 2:31 am
Kryptokate – “It’s because of technology that women can now enjoy men purely for their sex appeal and not have to worry about the other stuff because technology allows for a life of safety, security, and material abundance without worrying about violence and survival concerns.”
@bp
@jeremy
Don’t hold that against Kate, this is what Rollo is saying about happy open hypergamy where men become nuisance.
“Not to worry about The other stuff ” she means ; not needing the beta provisions !
Hallelujah Kate
I’ll be fine with that.
February 8th, 2015 at 7:21 am
Rollo writes …aren’t interested in Alpha excitement and Beta trustworthiness in the same place, in the same man, at the same time
Therefore, it might be time to take the first step, especially a man that’s past age 35. It begins with an email.
February 8th, 2015 at 9:34 am
“For instance, young women in their peak SMV years (22-24) are simply not the demographic of women who complain of men’s lack of maturity, their unwillingness to commit or how they need to Man Up and accept some ‘grown up’ responsibilities. Peak SMV age women aren’t concerned with long term commitments or provisioning from nice, dependable, Beta men – they’re too preoccupied with enjoying that SMV peak with Alpha lovers, and understand that offers of commitment from Beta men are cheap and plentiful.”
They might not complain about it, or state this outright…
but wouldn’t the fact that they tend to want to date older men more or less confirm they’re looking for that?
February 8th, 2015 at 10:17 am
@Liz
A review is in order: http://therationalmale.com/2012/06/04/final-exam-navigating-the-smp/
February 8th, 2015 at 10:53 am
Thanks Jeremy. :-)
I understand that a man’s SMV is higher at an older age. But I think this is related more to provisioning than fecundating (aka “alpha seed”). I don’t see anything there that counters that.
From the link:
“By age 36 the average man has reached his own relative SMV apex. It’s at this phase that his sexual / social / professional appeal has reached maturity. Assuming he’s maximized as much of his potential as possible, it’s at this stage that women’s hypergamous directives will find him the most acceptable for her long-term investment.”
February 8th, 2015 at 11:38 am
” Alpha is a state of mind, not a demographic.”
Rollo, we must be honest with them.
Alpha IS a state of mind manifested in behaviors AND alpha IS a demographic.
The truth is in the synthesis.
Sport players are majority alpha demographic Are
doctors are majority beta demographic.
chess team players majority baited demographic
February 8th, 2015 at 11:42 am
“I understand that a man’s SMV is higher at an older age. But I think this is related more to provisioning …”
so you think a man’s SMV increases the more he is a beta bucks?
it’s always interesting to see a woman’s viewpoint on this
February 8th, 2015 at 11:49 am
@ Liz
There’s more than provisioning at work there. An older man should have all of shit together which would include dealing with women. One of the constant refrains I here from men my age is “if I had only known then what I know now,” which always refers to base game awareness.
If that is not acted upon it’s for one of three reasons:
1. Risk to prior investments
2. A lack of motivation because these guys are still willingly compliant with social expectations about age appropriate relationships. They don’t see an advantage to be gained in dealing with similar aged women in this new way.
3. Fear that this intuition is, might be, wrong, and acting on it may reveal profound weaknesses, and generate worse results than following their current model.
Further older men don’t defer to younger women the same way they defer to older women. They won’t sit quietly for the same amount of nonsense. And since they aren’t going to take a shot, and don’t believe they might have shot with a younger woman they aren’t going to waste time. By default this gives the older man a stronger frame. There is an implication of options by his behavior that he is not fully aware of.
I think many Betas are intuitively, aware but lack a coherent understanding of what they actually know. Their mental mindset is like a messy closet that needs to cleaned and organized. There’s a lot good stuff in there but a lot of old crap that is hiding it.
February 8th, 2015 at 11:51 am
Liz, women’s desires for what men need to be for them changes drastically over the female life cycle, and significantly over the course of each month.
To think that a younger woman wants to date an older man because of he takes responsibility is to completely ignore relative SMV and the effectiveness of game-awareness in the SMP. If being a responsible man were an attraction factor, then significant portions of game would be devoted to “demonstrating being a responsible man.” Instead the term that is used is “Demonstrating higher value”. You can choose to believe that some women (perhaps even pretend for yourself) insert “responsibility” into their “value” judgements, but game demonstrates otherwise. Game demonstrates that women’s attraction to males springs from alpha traits, which while perhaps (but not necessarily) correlated with a responsible male, do not make the cut of necessary exposure when attempting to generate attraction.
If responsibility were important to women, game-aware men would start conversations with women about how much time they just spent investing wisely, taking care of aging grandparents, and how awesome a father they are to their children. They don’t, so it’s clearly not important for generating attraction in women.
You have to drop the idealism. It’s actually kind of funny how often women want to believe that their attraction to men is based on some kind of idealism, when in fact it’s just as biologically driven as men staring at boobs.
February 8th, 2015 at 12:26 pm
redlight: “so you think a man’s SMV increases the more he is a beta bucks?”
Not exactly, I just think attraction (for women) is a complicated cost to benefits analysis. The guy standing in front of the truck, perceived as more attractive, really isn’t (IMO) so different from a guy in physician’s scrubs or BDUs (as compared to, say, a Domino’s pizza delivery outfit).
I’m sure BP is right and some of it has to do with frame, and so forth. I’m sure Jeremy is right that a man doesn’t become more attractive via the discussing the subject of responsibility. But he does become more attractive when in positions of responsibility/ leadership/power and so forth. I think the line between BB and AF “attraction traits” are not so clearly delineated and more like the FATA between Afghanistan and Pakistan.
Anyway, you’ve given me food for thought. Thankyou all. :-)
February 8th, 2015 at 12:31 pm
the truck is an extension of himself.
it is literally seen as him.
the same is true with your cell phone home excetera. these objects are extensions of yourself
February 8th, 2015 at 1:04 pm
Nathan – “the truck is an extension of himself.”
But it reveals little about his true self and why the truck is necessary.
If he’s a poseur the truck is part of his costume. If he’s a contractor, or tradesman, the truck is tool. If he’s a successful rancher his Ford is old and beat up and used for work, and his new Chevy is for going to town on Saturday night.
The truck doesn’t say much in and of itself but it does serve as a screen for other to project onto.
Around here a new, shiny clean, 1/2 ton truck is often seen as similar to a sports car with a bald middle aged driver; it’s compensating for something.
February 8th, 2015 at 1:08 pm
@Liz
This is amusing. It’s more women-speak for, “There’s really not that much difference between AF and BB, I can have both!” This is yet another example of women abdicating their responsibility for optimizing their own sexual strategy, and simply presuming that men will solve this problem for them. That comment by Liz is why game works.
Not to mention the goalpost moving in this discussion, when you consider Liz’s first comment…
So now, we’re not talking about “young women” seeking out “responsible men”, we’re talking about all women being attracted to men in power. So, yeah, forget everything Liz was trying to say at first, and just accept that her real point was something that was completely agreed upon by everyone. Therefore, “argument won” by Liz. Yaay..
This is yet another attempt by me to have a rational discussion about this stuff, hoping the woman in the conversation would have self honesty.. and I’ve been disappointed again.
It’s not hard ladies, drop the idealism about female behavioral traits and recognize that you’re biological beings just like men. This means your biology rules you just as it does us. You’ve been trained to think otherwise of yourself by the world we live in, but it’s a lie.
February 8th, 2015 at 1:27 pm
Mr. T.,
“Any idea how to cap the god damn hypergamy? (please don’t mention any religious idea)”
You DO realize you’re rejecting the most effective way, proven over generations and generations, of achieving your goal, right?
YaReally,
“Long as I take care of my body I expect to be able to have sex through my 40s (Viagra if needed)…”
Dude… when did you turn so pessimistic? You should be saying “60s” at least!
February 8th, 2015 at 1:38 pm
The danger that young women do not seem to think about is that when they are older, they will wind up “settling” for a husband, rather than choosing a man they are really comfortable with and confident in. Women have their window of prime appeal and marketability to men between the ages 18 – 25. Most women waste this time with men they cannot realistically get commitment and marriage from. Young attractive women are like celebrities with an abundance mentality regarding men during this time, they think it’s going to last forever, but of course it doesn’t. They hit 27, even at this age, the competition with the fraction of younger 21 year olds who “get it” with quality men in terms of marriage is fierce. Few women know that their fertility starts to drop at 27 or 28. These older women have to then settle for a man, if they can find one. They will always compare him to the younger, better men she had when she was younger, and she will grow to resent him – these older women are divorce time bombs.
Chris Rock nailed it in his comedy act. We laugh at it here, but the ramifications are serious and cause a lot of problems and pain. The bit about “you not being her first choice” is near the end of this clip:
February 8th, 2015 at 1:47 pm
@Badpainter,
if something is incongruent then it’s an obvious negative.
the goal, and this should be obvious for those taking the red pill, is to be congruent with the extension of self
if you drive a truck you should be congruent with being a truck guy. and, as Rollo himself states, he wants his daughter with the (congruent) truck guy.
the real stupid shit is the sports cars guys
40 year olds driving Mustangs = complete lack of maturity
February 8th, 2015 at 2:04 pm
@Mentats,
https://heartiste.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/the-unbearable-triteness-of-hating/
If you want success with women, you are going to have to entertain them… one way or the other. The same is true of women. Once a woman stops entertaining men with her body, her femininity, and her commitment worthiness by getting fat, old, ugly, bitchy, or single mom-y, she stops having success with men. We are all doing the bidding of our biomechanical overlord, and on our knees to his will we surrender, by force or by choice. You fool yourself if you believe you have some plenary indulgence from this stark reality.
Or: If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em.
Mentats by your logic, just your insistent participation on my comment threads and twitter make you a liar. If you had really made up your mind to go your own way, and were so decided that “women just aren’t worth it” you’d be indifferent to what the manosphere and Red Pill awareness represent.
You keep posting because you know the truth, and you want it to work for you.
February 8th, 2015 at 2:08 pm
Nathan – “40 year olds driving Mustangs = complete lack of maturity”
Except if he’s a car guy. A car or truck is just a thing. If the thing being used as a fashion statement then you may be correct. But a car guy doesn’t give a fuck about how it affects his image because the car is congruent to his true self.
February 8th, 2015 at 2:13 pm
“40 year olds driving Mustangs = complete lack of maturity”
I don’t agree with this statement. If the guy likes and enjoys his Mustang, why not? Why is this a sign of immaturity? Should he be driving an economy car like a Toyota Camry instead to show he is mature?
February 8th, 2015 at 2:21 pm
Man Person – “Should he be driving an economy car like a Toyota Camry instead to show he is mature?”
Yes!
For the same reason he shouldn’t dare be dating a 25 year old woman. Because when your mental point of origin is in conforming to social expectation your decisions are made for you by your betters.
February 8th, 2015 at 2:29 pm
Jeremy: “Not to mention the goalpost moving in this discussion, when you consider Liz’s first comment…
“They {women in peak SMV years} might not complain about it, or state this outright… but wouldn’t the fact that they tend to want to date older men more or less confirm they’re looking for that {men who accept ‘grown up responsibilities’} ?”
So now, we’re not talking about “young women” seeking out “responsible men”, we’re talking about all women being attracted to men in power. So, yeah, forget everything Liz was trying to say at first, and just accept that her real point was something that was completely agreed upon by everyone. Therefore, “argument won” by Liz. Yaay..”
My only intention in using the word ‘power’ was to imply responsibility. Perhaps it was a poor choice of words but I haven’t moved any goalposts…I stand by what I said before. It’s not an all or nothing equation. I think BP’s point about demeanor was accurate but it doesn’t explain why women find even photographs of men in that age category most attractive.
“Therefore, “argument won” by Liz. Yaay..”
I honestly did not actually realize we were having an argument.
As a side note, I’m not sure why what I’ve said is considered “idealist” either…thinking of mating in terms of cost to gains would seem to me a pretty realistic view of the predatory mating style of the female. Not sure why thinking of a person as a wallet plus cock is more idealist than thinking of a person as just the cock…but okay.
“This is yet another attempt by me to have a rational discussion about this stuff, hoping the woman in the conversation would have self honesty.. and I’ve been disappointed again.”
Well, I am sorry to disappoint. I just read Rollo’s article, which I thought was very interesting and had a question. Obviously I’m irrational and incapable of self honesty. I’m impressed that you’ve summed up my character in such short time. Don’t worry, you don’t have to converse with me.
-Crazy, dishonest, irrational bitch out.
February 8th, 2015 at 2:46 pm
YaReally described the girl I’m currently seeing to a T. I’m 28 and she’s 25, she loves to cook and is working on her career but wants to settle down by 30, have kids and stay at home. I feel the pull to try and lock her down but also know I’m coming into my best years as a guy. I’m starting to see my options open up as I improve myself mentally and physically, and I haven’t experienced as much as I would like where settling down is my next best move. Reading and hearing stories about women doing complete 180s after marriage is what scares me the most. I hope YaReally is right and there is a new trend with women valuing traditional gender roles and a strong family unit.
February 8th, 2015 at 5:00 pm
@ Jeremy & Badpainter Of course I realize that women are not responsible for the technology that all of us now benefit from in the form of material abundance. But neither are the vast majority of people responsible for it. Technology has always been created by a very tiny percentage of people…the 2% or so who have actual talent and interest in science and engineering, and yes, the vast majority of that 2% are men. But the great bulk of humanity is just riding off of and enjoying what a minuscule proportion of people have created.
Yes, men must still do the hard jobs and heavy lifting. They’re the ones with the muscles, after all. But that’s also because we’re still only part way through the longterm project of the scientists/engineers, which is ultimately to free people from all biological, organic constraints. Drones increasingly do our defense work, robots and machines do the hard work, and absent total social collapse, this will continue to be more and more the case until human physical labor is unnecessary. Compared to only 100 years ago, physical labor has already become shockingly irrelevant for many, since back then virtually everyone but the ultra elite engaged in hard daily labor. And note that when I say physical labor will be rendered moot by technology, I’m referring to women’s labor as well, since caretaking and sex robots would eventually outperform and be preferred to human women.
Given that scientists/engineers are often stereotyped as being beta (though this is not always or necessarily the case), it’s interesting that their project has, in its initial stages at least, made beta provisioning unnecessary and optional, thus setting the stage for the alpha monopoly on the SMP we’re starting to see. However, this should theoretically be a temporary phase, as once people gain greater control over their biological selves and can engineer themselves to their ideals, all this alpha beta stuff will be a moot point anyway.
I don’t discount the possibility of social collapse that sends us all back to a more primitive, tribal, survival oriented world…it has happened before. However, we’ve come much further along this time than previous forays into technological progress, and I note that despite bemoaning about widespread social decay wrt the nuclear family, religion, etc, technological change has not slowed down a bit.
Despite the desire of commenters here to categorize me as some RP denying feminist — which is not at all the case and attributable more to the narrow frame of their perspective than the substance of my comments — my actual “argument” here, if you want to see it that way, is not that RP isn’t true but that it doesn’t go nearly far enough. It allows you to throw out the “old books” wrt mating strategies, and that certainly is well past due, but there are a lot of other old books that should be thrown out as well. RP only implicates one small piece of much broader changes about everything to do with human life, as alluded to by Bluedog. Most of the teeth-gnashing I see here seems driven by people insisting on the rules from old books and resisting rather than embracing the future. If you really examine yourself and others, I’ll think you’ll find that most people are quite terrified of the idea of freedom, which must ultimately come down to a basic mistrust of themselves and humanity in general.
February 8th, 2015 at 5:04 pm
Re: MMSL. The problem I have with Athol is that he wrote his first book by sourcing Red Pill principles and applying them to the DeadBedrooms married men desperate to get their wives to fuck them with any regularity.
Even though his background is a history of ONEitis, an international LDR and then his own DeadBedroom (with the only woman he’d ever banged to my knowledge) I still thought his MMSL and MAP had merit and I used to refer a lot of the married guys to his site.
Unfortunately Athol made the mistake of allowing female overseers into what used to be his Male Space. And predictably his male action plan transformed into the ‘mindful’ attraction plan as he catered to the sensibilities of the wives who discovered their husbands’ participation on MMSL. They didn’t disagree with their men Alpha’ing up, just so long as they were still controllable Betas who still deferred to them.
I can’t endorse MMSL any longer for married men. My main point of contention is that observing a process will change that process. If women are included in men’s “Alpha, but not too Alpha” transformation it’s simply never going to be believable to the women involved.
Furthermore, Athol oversimplifies Alpha = Testosterone and Beta = Oxytocin. That helps sell MMSL for wifely approval, but the problem he never confronts is that testosterone is a pre-orgasm, sexual tension and urgency precursor, while oxytocin is a post-orgasm comfort, bonding and familiarity catalyst.
As I detailed in Up The Alpha, there is no Beta with a side of Alpha because when a woman mentally associates you as being predominantly Beta comforting and familiar (post-orgasm oxytocin) no amount of Alpha posturing is going to convince her otherwise – particularly if she’s involved in your ‘Man Up’ transformation process.
You can’t be a supportive Beta six days of the week and expect your wife to believe you’re Alpha on Saturday night.
http://therationalmale.com/2012/10/02/up-the-alpha/
Once MMSL became Athol’s primary source of income and he brought his wife and other women into his “coaching staff” any credibility he had was lost. He’s found a niche for sure –selling men on the idea that their was a cure for their DeadBedrooms and selling their wives on the hope that their men would Alpha up but never doubt that they’re still in control.
February 8th, 2015 at 5:12 pm
@ cerveantescthree Thanks for the advice, but I prefer to hone my ideas against the grindstone of dissenting opinions just as much as I polish them with the oil of supporting and helpful thoughts.
@ bluedog I agree that Stoicism can be highly useful in modern times, with its emphasis on mindfulness and working towards optimization of the virtues in oneself. As a manner of self improvement, stoicism does not require resistance to change or ideological rejection of modernity or the future but can be quite useful for navigating the turbulence. Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations was in fact the first read that got be interested in philosophy, and I found much of it to be astonishingly relevant to present circumstances.
February 8th, 2015 at 5:29 pm
I’m saying that in a feminine-primary social order, women don’t believe that the R/K man can exist. George Clooney is an apex (celebrity) idealism that only exists as a psychological archetype of the hope that R/K man could exist, but the reality of George Clooney would likely be a far different experience for a woman.
So yes, when you account for the biological (ovulatory shift) underpinnings of women’s sexual strategy the preference is one of preferring Alpha Fucks man during up phases of both her ovulatory cycle as well as different phases of her maturity, and then preferring Beta Bucks man in the same fashion.
The Hypergamously optimized balance of R/K Good Guy is an idealization that doesn’t exist, not because men couldn’t achieve it but because no woman really wants it. On some level of consciousness they know that the strengths of the one are the liabilities of the other.
When she needs the Alpha to excite and dominate her, the Beta in him is a turnoff. When she needs emotional support the unavailable Alpha is the turnoff, but the sympathetic Beta is comforting.
There is no perfect man for women, because ultimately perfect is boring.
http://therationalmale.com/2012/09/27/the-perfect-man/
February 8th, 2015 at 5:41 pm
@Kryptokate, FWIW the latest Census data on never-married women disagrees with your presumption of post-35 y.o. women:
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2015/02/07/2014-never-married-data/
February 8th, 2015 at 5:50 pm
@YaReally
I’m not sure how to describe the difference between the “fish for a boyfriend” shit-test and the “no but seriously, please settle down with me ASAP I don’t want to ride the cock carousel” thing that’s starting to sprout.
The boomerang women are exactly like the shit testers in the results it sounds like. Either way she’s gonna go off to fuck another guy. How do you know the boomerang was going to stay if you didn’t treat it like a shit test? The fact that she came back? She’s still trying to assert that she’s a SIW with those actions. If she takes a couple years and comes back closer to The Wall, how is it any different from the typical shit test in anyway other than time scale?
Boomerangs sound like just another shit test. Look at it this way: if you’ll let her fire a big shit test, bail out on you, then come back after fucking a other guy, what does that say about your frame? Boomerangs just sound like another shit test to me man. Nothing short of complete surrender to your frame and wishes while you continue to spin other plates comes across as an actual desire to commit in my mind. Everything else is a shit test.
I mean if you can really make the case that a boomerang isn’t just a shit test featuring the CC then I’m all ears, but I really think in the end it is.
February 8th, 2015 at 6:49 pm
I realise that I am nit picking, but how much does the Truck cost to buy, run and maintain and how much does the Toyota Corolla (that’s what it looks like) cost to buy, run and maintain?
My guess is that the truck costs more on all fronts.
The implication being that Truck guy also has more money/resources.
February 8th, 2015 at 6:50 pm
Adele dedicated this song to a sexy beta!
I let it fall, my heart,
And as it fell you rose to claim it
It was dark and I was over
Until you kissed my lips and you saved me
My hands, they’re strong
But my knees were far too weak,
To stand in your arms
Without falling to your feet
But there’s a side to you
That I never knew, never knew.
All the things you’d say
They were never true, never true,
And the games you play
You would always win, always win.
But I set fire to the rain,
Watched it pour as I touched your face,
Well, it burned while I cried
‘Cause I heard it screaming out your name, your name!
When I lay with you
I could stay there
Close my eyes
Feel you here forever
You and me together
Nothing gets better
‘Cause there’s a side to you
That I never knew, never knew,
All the things you’d say,
They were never true, never true,
And the games you’d play
You would always win, always win.
But I set fire to the rain,
Watched it pour as I touched your face,
Well, it burned while I cried
‘Cause I heard it screaming out your name, your name!
I set fire to the rain
And I threw us into the flames
When it fell, something died
‘Cause I knew that that was the last time, the last time!
Sometimes I wake up by the door,
That heart you caught must be waiting for you
Even now when we’re already over
I can’t help myself from looking for you.
I set fire to the rain,
Watched it pour as I touched your face,
Well, it burned while I cried
‘Cause I heard it screaming out your name, your name
I set fire to the rain,
And I threw us into the flames
When it fell, something died
‘Cause I knew that that was the last time, the last time,
February 8th, 2015 at 7:46 pm
Open hypergamy and the collapse of marriage isn’t just an American phenomenon, it’s happening in Europe, in Asia in south America.
Is it the results of capitalism and consumerism or poverty?
Is it inevitable that women would become the superior gender and upsetting the 100 thousands years of evolution?
Do the world need a UN conference on hypergamy control like the climate control?.
February 8th, 2015 at 7:50 pm
@Mr T.
Stop looking at it as a fixable problem. While it might self-correct, for now the individual is best off accepting reality for how it is and devoting his energies to furthering his own goals.
February 8th, 2015 at 7:55 pm
@Rollo has written:
Alpha can only be a man’s dominant personality origin. There is no Beta with a side of Alpha because that side of Alpha is NEVER believable when your overall perception is one of being Beta to begin with…Alpha is a mindset, not a demographic
As you’re reading this, you may be choosing to believe your doctor that told you your testosterone level is normal or high, Yet, that Alpha mindset just doesn’t make sense to you. Your doctor may not have called for the lab to split testosterone into its parts.
‘Free’ testosterone is like the Fedex delivery army that comes throughout the day to deliver the packages that make the whole business work.
If your ‘free’ testosterone is super low, your testosterone production may be normal or high, but the ‘Fedex delivery army’ in your body have quit. You could have super high testosterone, but it’s not getting it delivered where it’s needed. This is not conducive to an Alpha mindset.
Your doctor did not test for ‘free’ testosterone or estrogen?
Your doctor only tested for overall testosterone?
Let me get this straight, your doctor told you your testosterone level is normal or even high normal? That’s on the SAME ranking scale doctors use for the man that’s 17 and the man that’s 77.
Again, your doctor did not test your estrogen level? Really? That’s potentially not good since elevated estrogen (in a man) can cause strokes, high blood pressure, obesity, cancer and other serious conditions.
Alpha is a mindset that becomes more naturalwhen, as a man, you have a doctor that is a world class expert on your specific hormones.
February 8th, 2015 at 7:57 pm
Far as the truck stuff goes I don’t even get how the truck is relevant lol Why would she even see your truck? You just meet up with her somewhere within walking distance of your apartment and bang her on that first meet. She won’t see what I drive until she asks for a ride home in the morning and if she’s turned off by my vehicle it’s like who cares I already banged her lol and she’ll rationalize that my vehicle is cool because she wouldn’t sleep with a “loser” so for her to tell herself she slept with a high-value guy she’d have to convince herself my shitty car is cool lol That’s how I get away with not having a car. Most of the time they don’t even know I don’t have a car till we’ve banged a few times because my first meet is walking distance, I call them a cab home after we bang, and the meets after that are at my apartment door so the topic of a car just doesn’t really come up.
Same thing with job, financial situation, wardrobe, etc. I’m gonna’ bang her that first night so none of that stuff is really relevant. If I was going to date her for like a month before we bang, it would probably come into play, but like, if it’s taking me more than one or two dates MAX to bang her, my game needs tightening.
@Rollo
I’ve heard other people say similar stuff about MMSL, which is a shame because that was my go-to resource for married/LTR guys who ask me for help. I don’t follow him or his forums or anything at all so I’m not up to date on what his MMSL advice is. Was his old MAP in book form where I can still link the book to guys with the caveat to ignore his website, or has he replaced his old book with a new neutered one that I shouldn’t be recommending (and instead may have to find a copy of the old book on Scribd or something to link people)? I don’t care about the politics of it all or what he’s doing on his board…all I care about is having a good resource I can link guys who are married/LTR in dead bedrooms that can help them out. From what I’ve read the original MAP really DID help a lot of guys with dead bedrooms.
Any opinion? From anyone really not just Rollo lol PUA is too much work for someone who’s stuck in a dead bedroom like an old married dude with 3 kids, to get into but I would hate not being able to link ANYTHING to help those guys out.
@Sun Wukong
“I mean if you can really make the case that a boomerang isn’t just a shit test featuring the CC then I’m all ears, but I really think in the end it is.”
lol fully aware that what I’m saying is a bit out there. I’ve actually never tried to articulate it until this thread, so bear with me here a lot of this is me sitting down and thinking this out in the moment trying to figure out how to explain these nuances so it’s going to be scattered thoughts. Fully open to questions, they force me to analyse it deeper to make sure I’m not just fooling myself.
“The boomerang women are exactly like the shit testers in the results it sounds like. Either way she’s gonna go off to fuck another guy.”
I agree with this. The end result LOOKS the same right NOW: they’re still going cock to cock. But the difference to me is that it seems like these girls are ATTEMPTING serial monogamy. They don’t know how to GET a high-value guy to commit to them yet, because feminism has taught them that just having a pussy should be enough so they aren’t bringing enough to the table to actually land them, but this type of girl seems to be aware that the strategy feminists have encouraged isn’t optimal for the end result they want.
It’s like if I value people who bring me fish, and you come to me wanting me to accept you but you don’t have any fish, I’m going to turn you down and you’re going to go to the next guy hoping he’ll accept your fishlessness but he doesn’t want it either because he also values fish. You don’t realize we want fish, so you keep knocking on our doors not really understanding why it isn’t working. That’s the stage it seems to be at now, so the end result looks the same as someone just knocking on all the doors…it’s still an end result of her riding the cock carousel.
But at some point you’re going to figure out that carrying a fish makes me more receptive to let you in and when you get in, you’re not going to be knocking on those other doors because you got what you wanted. So you’re not knocking on those other doors because you WANT to, it’s like a begrudging “I guess I HAVE to knock on the next door because I don’t know how to get this one to let me in”.
The difference between this and the usual attitude of girls is that the usual attitude is more like “fuck fish! fuck going in the doors! I just wanna knock on as many doors as possible woo!!” running down the hallway banging multiple doors at a time and playing them off eachother and going into one apartment while leaving the door wide open and sneaking out to other apartments etc. Like they’re riding the cock carousel out of a sense of adventure and fun and feminist “empowerment”.
Now we expect this behavior from older women who are approaching The Wall. We fully expect a woman who’s 30 to start looking for a serious LTR where she can stop banging on the doors in the hallway. Like the mindset of that 30yo is more that begrudging “I guess I’ll knock on the next door because I HAVE to since I don’t know how to get into this other apartment :(” but she’s trying to get off the carousel.
Except this is with the <25yo crowd, which is the weird part. It's like they're taking that mentality and applying it 10 years sooner than we're used to. So I'm running into girls who are like 23 but already seem to be trying to get off the cock carousel. So it's not that this behavior is totally unprecedented, women closer to the Wall already often execute this behavior, but to see it in THIS age range, at the start or prior to their careers instead of AFTER…THAT'S the unusual part I'm taking note of.
It's kind of like gambling…say you have to play poker to pay your rent and you just don't realize that people can lose significant amounts of money gambling so you're having fun. But then you see a few of your friends take huge losses and go bankrupt (old lonely feminist aunts and single moms and friends who are single moms, that article about the 37yo freezing her eggs jesus that was depressing etc.) and suddenly you're no longer playing that next hand because it's super fun and consequence-free, you're playing it because you didn't make your fortune on the last hand and HAVE to play another one but you'd really rather make your fortune on this next hand and cash out and not risk the bankruptcy.
The catch is that right now this is a really minor seed sprouting so it's not working out, because what I'd say is happening is that these girls aren't bringing enough to the table to land a high-value guy, so the guys that DO take them in as an LTR are, logically, not super high-value because they don't expect her to bring anything to the table, so you get that "I wouldn't be a member of a club that would accept people like me" mentality where she ends up dissatisfied.
Right NOW the only time it seems to work out and I never hear from them again is if she happens to be offering juuuuuust enough to land a guy who's juuuuuuust high-value enough to appease her Hypergamy. So you get a girl who does squats and cooks, landing a guy who's got just slightly higher value than most of the guys around him. She's not going to land a AAA celeb with the minor amount of value she's bringing to the table, but she lands a guy who's at least a bit better than the other guys around him and that's good enough.
"How do you know the boomerang was going to stay if you didn’t treat it like a shit test? The fact that she came back? She’s still trying to assert that she’s a SIW with those actions. If she takes a couple years and comes back closer to The Wall, how is it any different from the typical shit test in anyway other than time scale?"
I think the biggest difference is that she hyperfocuses on her LTR attempt:
Like the usual <25yo girls will land an LTR but they'll still be out at the bar every weekend flirting and having drunk makeouts, maybe cheat, definitely keep monkey branches on the line to swing to, fuckbuddies on the side, they'll keep texting with me and sending me sexy pics for my validation etc., and if we run into eachother at the bar I KNOW she's going to come home with me and fuck me with barely any resistance. She's really only in an LTR at that age in the absolute loosest sense of the word.
But this type of <25yo girl I'm starting to see, when she tries an LTR, shuts EVERYTHING else down completely. She stops texting with me (or txts super platonic friendship style, no more flirting), she stops going out to the bars, she isn't banging other guys on the side, it's like she just completely goes into ghost mode with other guys and focuses on her LTR guy. If I run into her at the bar she's MASSIVELY reluctant to hook up again and tries VERY hard to resist and feels a ton of regret if we DO hook up because she's TRYING to be a "good girlfriend". Like it's an uphill battle to bang her.
Right NOW, this strategy often doesn't work out, because she's not bringing much to the table so she can't get a guy high-value enough to really keep her Hypergamy under control for more than a few months, so like 3 or 4 months later I'll get a txt from her that she's broken it off because she got bored or whatever and we'll hook up again till she finds the next guy but then boom, she's a ghost again.
So it's like a serial monogamy strategy. I'm only seeing her BETWEEN guys instead of while she's WITH guys. Again, I'm used to that from older women, but seeing that behavior (and other guys seeing it too) in girls as young as 22 is notable because it suggests that these girls are thinking longer-term than the other girls, and the obvious logical cause of that longer-term thinking would be seeing the shitty results of the cock carousel feminist grrl-power empowerment strategy where you get them saying stuff like "I don't want to end up old and alone".
5-10 years ago, like I say, there was still a chance these old lonely women were going to find their Mr. Big. But now it's hard to avoid noticing how miserable old childless husbandless women are…whether it's their own single mom, or their crazy cat lady aunt, or their bitter female teacher, etc.
And like I say, they haven't really figured out how utilize this strategy yet, so the end result still looks like cock carousel riding…but when they start figuring out how to offer enough value that a high-value guy says "wow, you're not like the other 23yos, you would be good wife material, ok I want to settle down with you" and locks down with her, that's when this strategy is going to pick up more steam.
They're kind of like how the original PUAs went "ok none of us knows how to get girls, so we're going to try stuff and see what behaviors offer enough value that these girls want to fuck us" and now we have the red pill communities. I think right now they're in that early stage where they don't even realize they SHOULD be offering more value than just having a pussy, but a couple generations from now they could end up like TRP where maybe mainstream feminism scolds them for wanting to be 1950s housewives, but they're seeing success and seeing their <25yo friends lock high-value guys down by offering the 1950s housewife attitude and they'll do what works regardless of feminist approval.
"if you’ll let her fire a big shit test, bail out on you, then come back after fucking a other guy, what does that say about your frame?"
lol well for me specifically it doesn't matter because I'm not trying to date her so I don't care if she bangs other guys. I don't have any "you can't see anyone else" rules with casual FBs so she's not breaking any rules with me. I'm only offering casual sex and I know if she wants an LTR and a guy comes along who's offering her an LTR she'll jump ship to him…but like I say the usual girls would continue to bang me (or stay in touch with me "just incase" and/or other guys) on the side whereas this new type seems to completely cut other guys off while they try their best to make their LTR work.
Hope this makes sense lol like I say bear with me if it's all scattered thoughts. I'm aware I'm describing something very small and it's entirely possible that I'm wrong, but it's something I'm paying attention to and have seen enough evidence of that I'm willing to hold off on settling down banking on my theory holding up, but it'll take another few years to really tell. Like I've said a bunch of times this is still a small percent of girls. The big indicators of this being an actual cultural shift will be when we start seeing articles on the net by women claiming that taking care of your man and household is something to be admired and is the new empowered woman who prides herself on nurturing others instead of slaving away in a cubicle etc. etc. like where they slander the thing they've been promoting as success, and hold up the thing they've slandered as the new success. If we start seeing articles like that in the next <5 years, that's going to be a big indicator.
February 8th, 2015 at 8:04 pm
@Sun Wukong
“Stop looking at it as a fixable problem. While it might self-correct, for now the individual is best off accepting reality for how it is and devoting his energies to furthering his own goals.”
I would suggest that it’s not a “problem” at ALL. I LIKE Hypergamy.
I wouldn’t WANT to live in a world where some buttfuck negative 300lbs loser who just sits in a basement eating Doritos and playing Warcraft all day can shuffle out to the club in his grubby sweatpants and greasy hair with awkward social skills and no goals or hobbies in life no passion or purpose etc., and pull a fucking 10 hottie.
Hypergamy forces me to be my best, which is something I should want for myself ANYWAY. It’s like modern society tells me to do as little as possible and just be an apathetic chode watching reality TV and eating junk food all day…but understanding Hypergamy makes me go “you know, there’s incentive for taking care of myself. I DO want to take care of myself, but it’s a lot easier to just be a pile of shit…but Hypergamy gives me some extra motivation to take care of myself.”
It’s not that I’m only taking care of myself to get pussy, but that it’s an extra bonus to something I should be working on wanting to do anyway.
When I see a smokin hot girl, I don’t think “ugh man, I wish this was EASIER wahhh I wish her standards were lower”. I think “mmm, I want THAT…I’d better bring out my A game.” I WANT her to shit-test and not accept losers, ’cause when I DO get her I know other men aren’t going to be competition to worry about because no one else is going to pass her tests.
A girl with no Hypergamy? You’d have to worry about Dorito Chode taking her from you lol
February 8th, 2015 at 8:15 pm
@Ya ” The big indicators of this being an actual cultural shift will be when we start seeing articles on the net by women claiming that taking care of your man and household is something to be admired and is the new empowered woman who prides herself on nurturing others instead of slaving away in a cubicle etc. etc. like where they slander the thing they’ve been promoting as success, and hold up the thing they’ve slandered as the new success. If we start seeing articles like that in the next <5 years, that's going to be a big indicator."
Man that rings true. And if that happens we will all be jumping for joy!
February 8th, 2015 at 8:44 pm
@ LiveFearless
Do you have to fly out there to set up a meeting or can you do everything online? I’ve seen some places where you can get doctors to order tests and prescriptions for you completely online — that would be ideal.
February 8th, 2015 at 8:52 pm
@YaReally “no but seriously, please settle down with me ASAP I don’t want to ride the cock carousel” is a good way to describe it. Yr explanation of the differences sound accurate to me:
“Like, it’s not a GOOD strategy yet, and as I said they haven’t figured out exactly what to bring to the table yet to make high-value guys want to commit in 2015 (like the girls who want me to LTR them don’t realize that “oh I hate cooking I just eat out or microwave stuff” makes me rule them out as potential LTR/mother-of-my-kids material), but it’s like watching a baby try to take its first steps and stumble and fall over. The seed seems to be planted and I think down the road it’s going to take root.”
The whole “oh I hate cooking I just eat out or microwave stuff” statement really is a big turn off that all types of women throw around mindlessly, along with other stuff that generally isn’t an attractive feature in anyone. Man or woman.
This is a fact I have experienced also:
“whereas what I’m seeing now is more that the guy is high-value and attractive to her, but when he won’t go for an LTR she tries to overwrite her wiring and bails completely and tries to find a high-value guy who WILL commit. It doesn’t work most of the time of course. Like the pattern I notice is the girl will go off to find an LTR guy but the guy will end up being lame or the LTR will end up being boring and I get a txt from her and she either dumps him to come bang me again or cheats on him with me because the sex is more exciting.”
I haven’t noticed any specific trend in their behaviours, and it seems to me that most young women binge and go out, but I’ve never bothered trying to make a distinction on the amount, but I will vouch for these hold-a-high-value-male-close type women are more concerned with their health.
“Like they want to lock a guy down so that when the baby clock starts ticking at 30 they have a good high-value man and a solid relationship to introduce kids into.”
That’s a great way of putting it too, and it’s what I think as well. And of course, denying the riding of the cock carousel is madness, it will continue to spin. A potential shift is a possibility, but given the incredibly small amount of women behaving like this it could be a tactic that only a few women ever use.
“I never saw this at ALL 5-10 years ago, and even in just this thread there are a few guys reporting noticing the same trend”
I started to get laid at 17, and it was when I was 19 and my game improved that I started noticing women picking up on this trend. So it’s definitely something more common in a younger generation of women.
“I’m like that guy who just noticed that the electric fence around Jurassic Park flickered off for a split second and as everyone walks off he stares at the fence thinking “hmm that might be something to keep an eye on…””
Now that’s a damn good analogy. I’ll continue to observe – and participate – and take note on the YaReally Reversion Theory.
I checked out yr archive btw, some good stuff on there and I especially like your mentioning of old school game and how the art – it is art in a way; the art of Seduction ;) – is being neglected in red-pill discussions (some of yr examples were golden btw, such as the VIP tactic, fucking golden), but I think it’s still around in abundance. I still use the art in every situation, I just don’t think it’s being spoke about as much anymore, but it’s definitely still there. I agree too that there definitely is a “VERY different feeling between picking up a girl who’s immediately into you and does half the work for you and you spam-approached 10 girls to find one that chose you and she looks good enough to bang, and picking a very specific girl that specifically appeals to you and blowing through any resistance she gives to land that specific target you chose.”
February 8th, 2015 at 9:00 pm
“However, and probably more importantly, women aren’t interested in Alpha excitement and Beta trustworthiness in the same place, in the same man, at the same time.”
Rollo, been reading your blog for years. This sentence captures everything. Tough to admit, but it is Truth.
February 8th, 2015 at 9:04 pm
@Softek online, phone. I’ve been to the office, great view, but it’s not necessary as long as you live in the U S.
February 8th, 2015 at 9:18 pm
@cervantesscthree
To clarify my own quote upon reading it in your comment:
“Like the pattern I notice is the girl will go off to find an LTR guy but the guy will end up being lame or the LTR will end up being boring and I get a txt from her and she either dumps him to come bang me again or cheats on him with me because the sex is more exciting.””
At first glance this seems like a contradiction from my next post where I said these girls don’t cheat with me, but the wording is very careful on this nuance. The timeline is that they vanish COMPLETELY for a few months and once that LTR isn’t working out (because the guy wasn’t high enough value to keep her interested, because she didn’t bring much to the table and he accepted her so logically he can’t be very high value or he wouldn’t have taken her), THAT’S when she “cheats on him with me because the sex is more exciting.” Like it’s once the relationship is on its way out and she dumps him after we bang (one used sex with me as a catalyst TO break up, like we bang and then she txts him that they’re officially done and she goes back on the marketplace).
Just wanted to clarify because it’s important for narrowing this down into whats consistent. If these girls were cheating with me instead of going radio silent then they would just be like the normal girl we’re used to.
“A potential shift is a possibility, but given the incredibly small amount of women behaving like this it could be a tactic that only a few women ever use.”
Right, that’s why I think it’ll take a couple generations. Where the girls attempting this and who figure out “ok bring some housewife skills to the table” end up happy with kids and fufilled lives, and can be compared to the miserable shitty old lonely 70yo feminist bitching in the nursing home, and those girls can teach other girls or teach their daughters “ok look, here’s the secret Konami Code to get a high-value man”.
Like this isn’t something that’s going to pick up steam this year and by the end of the year we’re all surrounded by hot in-shape wife-quality girls lol..but I’m in my early 30s so to me it’s worth keeping an eye on this and comparing notes with other guys like we’re doing here, and seeing if it’s an accurate observation. Because if I’m right, then there’s the potential possibility that when I’m 40 it’ll be like 10% of young hot girls out there offer this housewife value VS 1% and like, that’s worth waiting to me lol
I think if we accept that social trends can cause women to toss away wifey skills, like reports of EE/Asia girls getting shittier as North American culture migrates over to them and warps their mindsets…then the opposite must logically be true: they’re capable of improving. As long as whatever it is 1) benefits their chance of successfully reproducing and 2) is laid out in front of them easy to follow or taught to them by peers/elders.
I don’t have enough evidence to make this an absolute claim of what’s happening or going to happen, but I’m keeping an eye on that electric fence and the raptor eyeballing the power box attached to it lol
February 8th, 2015 at 10:04 pm
@YaReally: If you’re still advising married guys I would recommend Athol’s first book from 2011, The MMSL Primer. That one is pretty Red Pill and it’s still got gold in it. I’m a fan of that first book. If your married guy students are going to want reference literature I would pick that and Rollo’s book as the one-two punches.
The only weird section of MMSL Primer was the scientifically dubious descant on Fighting Sperm (i.e., Alpha Sperm fights off and conquers dweeby Beta sperm yeah surre maybe but I couldn’t find any real backup for it). Did NOT get Athol’s “Mindful” second book for the reasons stated above: by trying to make the message “universal” to both spouses it gets garbled and watered down in order to retain the (wife) paying customers. Though a couple years ago I admit to being intrigued by the WIVES appearing on his forum for tips on getting their HUSBANDS to Alpha up.
February 8th, 2015 at 10:08 pm
@Rollo: “Once MMSL became Athol’s primary source of income and he brought his wife and other women into his “coaching staff” any credibility he had was lost. He’s found a niche for sure –selling men on the idea that their was a cure for their DeadBedrooms and selling their wives on the hope that their men would Alpha up but never doubt that they’re still in control.”
You nail it on MMSL on every cylinder.
Married Red Pill (MRP) is a Reddit http://www.reddit.com/r/marriedredpill/ created as an alternative to MMSL where RP and unplugging married and LTR guys can talk about their relationships. We learned from the problems you spell out with MMSL and made it a point from the beginning to keep the women on a short leash. Women are not allowed to advise men on love, relationships, or how to be a man and may only disagree with a commenters approach with “full feminine grace and charm.” We don’t get many women commenting but we are prepared to control them if we do to prevent the takeover of this male space.
In drafting the posting guidelines for women on the MRP sub-Reddit I have had hate messages from women for not including them fully on Married Red Pill (MRP) and from men for letting women post on MRP. I have been accused of flailing around and being indecisive as well as being rigid and controlling. I guess if you are taking flack maybe you are over the target?
The other difference between MMSL and MRP was also addressed by Rollo- “no Beta with a side of Alpha.” The guys at MRP generally think men need to Alpha up and take control NOT let women stay in control. Our approach is to be Alpha with a side of Beta, not build a better Beta with a touch of Alpha.
I think even the uber-Beta guys can Alpha up just fine and get the sex life they want in a marriage. They don’t have to be the apex Alpha. They just have to get Alpha enough to bring the tingles. I think the outlook is more positive than you think. Women respond quite well to just a little bit of game and the wife is often the easiest woman to game once you get going.
February 8th, 2015 at 11:30 pm
So long as MMSL includes wives in the process of a husband changing himself to effect a change in her, they will never escape the Hawthorne Effect:
https://explorable.com/hawthorne-effect
and the Observer Expectancy Effect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Observer-expectancy_effect
Once you included a woman in your Red Pill transformation you defeat any legitimacy of that transformation.
February 8th, 2015 at 11:54 pm
That Reddit is promising. I will bookmark it. I note they also cite the Robert Glover book too – the third leg of the literary stool, though it was written when Red Pill thinking was at its most embryonic. Must be read with that in mind.
+100 about the Observer effect. Negates the whole point of trying to effect this kind of personal change when the intended subject knows you’re doing it. Dread is not Dread if it is known to be a feint, a tactic.
February 9th, 2015 at 12:30 am
On a personal level – the conclusions are obvious: Don’t talk about it, use it, get what you want. Game covers that extrensivly – with some practise, you can get there.
On the level of society itself – in the last three articles, Rollo continues to make very valid points that stand in stark contrast to his continued refusal to “admit” to something very simple:
The control of female sexuality (due to it’s evolutionally backwards and socially disruptive nature) should rest with…just about absolutly anybody (even the pope or a pimp would be more qualified) BUT women themself.
The reason is very simple:
Hypergamy = slow, insidious destruction of developed society, trend to go even further and just enjoy the hormonal benefits of AF/BB but not produce children; “male imperative” = slow (perhaps even blunderous or individually cruel) growth b/c children and at least minor, but guranteed reproductive chances for productive men.
February 9th, 2015 at 12:35 am
“I think even the uber-Beta guys can Alpha up just fine and get the sex life they want in a marriage. They don’t have to be the apex Alpha. They just have to get Alpha enough to bring the tingles. I think the outlook is more positive than you think. Women respond quite well to just a little bit of game and the wife is often the easiest woman to game once you get going.”
Somebody who tells you he games “his” wife is already invalidating everything he says – because even the semantics are already skewed:
She is not HIS wife, he is HER husband and bound by a iron-clad judicial order. She can destroy his life with (literally) one phone call, he can do nothing at all except pulling of a bluff.
In that context, subtle “dread” is the last tool of the dog backed into a corner.
Everybody who can get at least some constitent women (wich you can even as a beginner of game) – never ever marry, come hell or high water.
February 9th, 2015 at 1:36 am
Rollo, great post, even better advice on the comment section. You said any transformation for a woman defeats the purpose of change.. can you elaborate?
I’m 22, jumping from job to job, and internalized a lot of truths here, and working on my social skills and social dominance and everything necessary so I can get laid lol. In my view this is sex transmutation, changing so you can get a better shot at getting girls and live a more congruent and fulfilling lifestyle.
Thanks, I’m learning on the go
February 9th, 2015 at 2:44 am
Rollo:
It’s not that I don’t think it works. It’s that everything I’ve learned makes women sound like the Scorpion in the fable of the Scorpion and the Frog.
http://allaboutfrogs.org/stories/scorpion.html
February 9th, 2015 at 2:53 am
@YaReally
lol well for me specifically it doesn’t matter because I’m not trying to date her so I don’t care if she bangs other guys.
Oh obviously. I wasn’t referring to your current game. I guess I was referring to guys interested in the idea of LTR that might get suckered in by the boomerang act. I mean if I’m wanting to LTR a chick, fucking other guys is something that I want off the menu for her. Were she to go out, fuck other dudes, then come back saying “OK I’m ready to spend our lives together now!”, my response would pretty much be “I was interested in the chick I met before, not the slut standing in front of me now.”
Case in point: if my ex changed her mind tomorrow and showed up on my door step saying she wanted an LTR now after I’ve seen her put the words “I’m exploring my sexuality” up on social media, I’d fuck her a few more times then toss her. The tone would be set right off the bat for “You can fuck up or fuck around as much as you like, I always take you back.” Shit frame, shit start, bad ending incoming ya know?
A woman’s gotta get it right the first time so that she knows major fuck preventable fuck-ups aren’t allowed (major frame break), and she’s got to Just Get It(tm) without you telling her since she should be doing all the right shit because she wants to. That’s the only way she’ll keep doing it in the long run.
The only explanation I can find for the Boomerang other than Grand Shit Test is that chicks are just flaky and indecisive. It almost seems like the best play for a guy interested in LTR is to subtly poke for if she buys in to “exploring her sexuality” or any of the other typical modern “female empowerment” memes. An affirmative on any of them is a firm NO for long term. Otherwise if none of them can be found, then your frame should become about making the commitment decision for her. The Boomerang just sounds like typical female indecisiveness that should be curbed by male decisiveness. Not through begging, but through the same energy you started the relationship with. “We’re going out for drinks tomorrow,” and eventually “You and I are tying the knot this spring.”
But I could be incorrect as well. You should poke the subject some more. Obviously don’t bother asking women questions about it as the content of the answers will be useless, but more observation is definitely in order.
I would suggest that it’s not a “problem” at ALL. I LIKE Hypergamy.
To a guy out just out enjoying getting laid, absolutely it’s awesome if he’s got solid game. To any guy interested in starting a family? It is his absolute worst enemy.
February 9th, 2015 at 5:52 am
February 9th, 2015 at 6:11 am
@Mentats! (@PartyTimeMentat) I do not have to date/have sex with anyone
You’re correct.
You do not have to.
For other men, if you think it might be “low testosterone.
See a doctor about TRT.”
February 9th, 2015 at 7:51 am
“.. this is still a small percent of girls. The big indicators of this being an actual cultural shift will be when we start seeing articles on the net by women claiming that taking care of your man and household is something to be admired ..”
This would of course be coincident with the main base station repeaters of the feminist cult actually dying out, in a welter of cat-litter, Gitanes, chardonnay and selfies, or hieing themselves off to Dignitas.
Like the Shakers or the Skoptsy, their ideology is inherently self-limiting (except where the state insists on playing sugar-daddy ; so far, so good, but could feminism even exist outside an ‘Empire’?).
One snag with the ’50s housewife at age 22′ scenario is the “nice girl” pose will carry over into the bedroom too. Been there seen it dunnit (’70s not ’50s, and only briefly, ‘scuse me). Hopelessly infantilized, don’t do the nasty, and hankering for “more than this” when they finally move out of their doting parents (mind-)control zone years later. In a worst case scenario, going full-on Sylvia Plath/50SoG. And there’s no way of finding this out beforehand, unless you assumed everyone else was lying through their teeth, all the time. Turns out what she said age six was actually an ambition. “When I grow up I’m going to marry Daddy!” (simper, curtsy; how cute).
Basically what I’m saying is old people like me don’t have the good manners to cark it from pneumonia/heart attack age fifty, like they did in the Good Old Days. Which gives their kids a heavily-fortified redoubt to fall back on if they become even marginally dissatisfied with their lot.
February 9th, 2015 at 10:50 am
Devil’s Advocaat
“the advent of unilaterally feminine controlled birth control”
This dynamic must have been played out in othe species… Maybe we can learn something…
When a subspecies of wasps, for instance, developed unilateral female control over reproduction, (the ability to store sperm) societal males became superfluous.
The subspecies I refer to eventually evolved into – ANTS!
Some ant facts…
– Only one female (the queen) breeds.
– Queen ants are impregnated once and use that single store of sperm to fertilise her eggs for the rest of her breeding life.
– The (still winged) male ants, only appear during times of swarm, and live very short, albeit eventful lives.
– Every (wingless) ant you’ve ever seen is in fact a female drone worker.
Are we – going the way of the ants?
February 9th, 2015 at 11:26 am
There is no topic you can consider that I haven’t already addressed:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/01/07/queens-workers-drones/
Heheh,..
February 9th, 2015 at 12:02 pm
@ Mentats
To your comment on the 7th at 5:55…
I’d argue that altering your behavior to get laid this doesn’t make you a performing monkey, from any perspective.
For instance, let’s say I’m about 15 lbs overweight, and I want to get that weight down to my college level. Therefore, I change my behavior; I determine why I’m scarfing Doritos and donuts (unhappy that I’m overweight, so I anesthetize myself), swap that for a healthier behavior (eating my veggies and lean protein), modify my behavior from sitting to working out and viola! I’m back in shape. And I am not doing it to get women; it’s the getting in shape that gets you women as an added side benefit to the REAL goal, which is control over your life.
Everything that benefits you as a man, whether it be self-education, learning a news skill, mastering a language or just being more of the man you want to be, will have attracting women as its natural bonus. You’re doing those changes for you, not them. And look at it this way; if you’re going to completely ignore women as a MGTOW, doesn’t it actually benefit you to be in the best shape mentally, physically, economically and spiritually anyway? Self improvement is the pathway AND the reward.
Hard as it may be, I’d really try to listen to the men on this site, as you’re hearing and getting the benefit of their hard-won experience that comes from meeting life head on.
Glad to be back!
February 9th, 2015 at 12:14 pm
” There is no topic you can consider that I haven’t already address”
Oh yeah, how about strip-club dynamics?
Keep it up Rollo. Site and book have been like water in the desert
February 9th, 2015 at 12:30 pm
Don’t be silly.
http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/10/strippers/
February 9th, 2015 at 12:31 pm
“It’s not that I don’t think it works. It’s that everything I’ve learned makes women sound like the Scorpion in the fable of the Scorpion and the Frog.”
Apply red pill razor:
Maybe they sound like that because they ARE like that. ;-)
Simple things are simple:
The more sexual freedom and/or social power they have, the more they become the “scorpion” to stable, *modern* society. –> direct relation, exponential growth of social dysfunction (from the POV of a stable nation state protecting & enhacing it’s population, ofc)
Doesn’t mean one can’t enjoy life – just that enjoyment and what is the right thing to do are (again, in direct relation to to freedom of sexual choice for females) diamterically opposed. One could draw a graph that…
February 9th, 2015 at 12:35 pm
@Mentats, read:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/24/the-pet/
February 9th, 2015 at 1:01 pm
Fear of paper tigers….
So which man is pandering more to the feminine imperative? The “alpha” or the “beta”?
The man who aspires or considers himself to be the white knight good provider beta AND the man who aspires or considers himself to be the asshole gaming alpha are BOTH pandering to the feminine imperitive.
BOTH are experiencing a sense of self devaluation to even compare themselves to this dynamic. BOTH seek her approval and are negotiating for her attention in one way or the other. Why else would anyone make the comparison? BOTH are puppets of this plural hypergamy.
Is man’s identity now supposed to be defined by this shallow pop culture, “feminine imperitive”, “hypergamy” dualistic classification? Is this how we men should envision ourselves? “You can be the alpha fuck-a-lot or the beta good-dad-provider or some vague combination of both”…….”But that’s all you’re ever going to be, and that’s all women will ever see you as……..”
If this is how you prefer to define yourself, then this is what you will be.
This paradigm is really meaningless, yet it gains power because men are paying it attention to it. Any concern with any aspect of it reveals lack of personal confidence and willingness to acquiesce.
February 9th, 2015 at 1:05 pm
^^^^
Translation: “I don’t want just any girl, I want a girl appreciates and loves me for who I really am.”
February 9th, 2015 at 1:20 pm
Yes. The FI and hypergamy are her frame……don’t try to define yourself in her frame.
February 9th, 2015 at 1:24 pm
You’re just describing Crisis of Motive:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/07/18/crisis-of-motive/
February 9th, 2015 at 1:36 pm
Super Bowl car commercials instructing on fatherhood was an interesting theme.
Some nissan commercial. The father is a race-car driver (alpha) who is shown to be frequently absent to pursue his racing career while mom and son struggle through the day-to-day. But he is always there to perform in the beta moments. Plus, he’s on TV.
In the end, he picks up teen son in a sporty-but-sensible nissan. Almost a tear in his eye. He’s the alpha with side of beta. Maybe he has been tamed, retired from racing to sell insurance now.
Of course, it is not about him at all. He’s just the driver. Just the male character. The car is the alpha. Race car, family car, same car. The family car in the end is really just a street-legal race car with softer seats; its the alpha with a side of beta. She smiles, he tears up.
And then Toyota’s turn: “Being a dad is more than being a father; its a choice.” Exactly. Her choice. But do tell me more, Toyota, about what it means to be a Dad.
Oh, so it is really about being “bold”, being there for your daughter through all of her poor choices, etc. (Man up?) Drops her off at the airport. She’s off to the Army(?). He’s crying. Daughter learned to be bold from him. She’s bold enough to join the army. He’s bold enough to cry. Meanwhile, be bold and drive a Toyota sedan. But wait. I though the sedan was boring and safe and I should be driving a truck?
As for the Truck video. Just like the others, it is not about the “man” at all. He’s a cardboard cutout. He’s part of the background. (“Same man, same background”) Then: “Which man is more sexy?” Trick question? So they are really asking which vehicle is more sexy. Of course everybody knows this already. The truck is more sexy, more rugged.
The truck is the alpha. The truck is for fun, for sexytime, for “Dating” adventures. The car is for post-wall beta bux time when (insert any man here) is more responsible and she appreciates this because those days are behind her. All those ghost trucks made her who she is today. All men are cardboard cutouts until their utility toward fulfillment of her entitlements can be assured.
The men aspire to be the type of man who is sexy, rugged, reliable. The cardboard cutout is essential in enabling their projection. The women aspire to be the kind of woman who is with a man who is sexy, rugged, reliable. The actual image of the man is irrelevant. As is the actual attributes of the women vis a vis the type of woman who would be in the truck.
Women will insert man (men) into this role as needed. It isn’t about the specific man and his qualities; it is about her being able to see herself in the truck (alpha.) Which of course is easy. They all deserve to be in the truck.
If it was about men being sexy, rugged, reliable. The truck and car would be the background and the man would change. And it would be just as predictable. A tall man with stubble holding some tool but something else like an expensive watch that suggests he works for a living – but does so because he likes it not because he is cheque-to-cheque like most guys who drive a $50k never-never truck.
He’d be more like those guys in the Cialis commercials. Touch of grey, but not so much. Fit. Handsome. Run some business they enjoy the shit out of. Basically the exact type of man who will never need Cialis.
The other guy would look more like the original cutout: skinny pants, button down, narrow shoulders. Perhaps a bit shorter. Maybe less luscious hair and a bit of a belly. Basically, most men who will soon enough need Cialis.
So yeah, be the truck. Or rather, the kind of man who would drive a truck if you want to play for alpha fux. Otherwise, keep laying away into that 401k and drive something that gets good mileage and fits into the parking garage at the office and wait for the kind of men who might drive that truck to give your future wife all the adventures and experience she needs to learn how to appreciate your fiscal responsibility and sensible life choices.
Based on the women in the truck commercial, who are a fairly realistic representation of what is out there, I’d rather ride my bike and take transit, and borrow my friends truck when I need to haul shit.