In the last comment thread Rational Male regular, Glenn, had an interesting exchange that went like this:
My marriage exactly. And she really did turn on me by the time my daughter was 2, also having two miscarriages. It was as though a switch went off and she simply fucking hated me. In my case, I had too much dignity and many women who were interested in me who seemed quite fine, so I put my foot down and my ex then just began an affair with a Plan B she had in the wings (hotties always have a Plan B guys, especially wives). She married him and destroyed him too, but it wrecked my relationship with my daughter along the way. So much destruction and pain.
I often look back on my marriage now from the RP perspective and have started to blame myself for not being more dominant and not seeing shit tests for what they were etc, but I also wonder if there was anything I could have done? She was hot, there were always good looking guys willing to fuck her – I mean, is it just inevitable for some women?
As I’m finishing up the final edits of the next book, I’m once again reminded of its main purpose – a cautionary explanation of what men can expect of contemporary women at the various phases of their maturity. In Anger Management I detailed the anger men direct at themselves, not at the women who followed a natural predictable ‘flow’ of rationalizations and social conventions they can be expected to as their conditions in life dictate. Naturally any anger a man may deal with or express in this regard is always presumed to be directed towards women. A feminine dominant social order is one founded on the innate solipsism of women.
Now, before I dig in a bit deeper here, I want to make clear that while Glenn’s comment started my thinking process about this week’s topic, what I’m going to get at here isn’t a reflection on anything personal. His story of being “turned on” by a wife he believed was playing on his team is a very common one related by many a post-divorced man using the hindsight of a Red Pill lens.
I’m adding this caveat since only Glenn can really say for himself whether his mindset at the time he first met, and later married, the wife who turned on him was colored by Blue Pill idealism and / or a Beta self-perception. My guess, as with most men in his situation, was that he actually had what was a realistic expectation of a reciprocal relationship based on what he thought would be her genuine appreciation of his efforts and merits.
Betas at the Epiphany
I’ve discussed in several prior threads the Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks strategy women use in both the short and long term. What I think needs a bit more explanation is the long term effects of that strategy on the Beta man’s mindset as a result of his fem-centric conditioning.
When a woman approaches and enters into her Epiphany Phase, she has a limbic understanding that her genetic chips need to be cashed in with a man who has ‘proper’ long term provisioning potential. For the greater part, those men are at least expected by women to have a Blue Pill, Beta conditioning that will make them more compliant with, now, what’s becoming an unignorable open Hypergamy.
These are the men Sheryl Sandberg describes as,
“…someone who wants an equal partner. Someone who thinks women should be smart, opinionated and ambitious. Someone who values fairness and expects or, even better, wants to do his share in the home.”
These are nice euphemisms used to describe a man willing to accept his position of powerlessness in the grand scheme of feminine-primacy and open Hypergamy for his participation in realizing women’s dominant sexual strategy.
The Beta man encountering this new found attraction convinces himself that women’s interest in him is genuine and organic. In a sense it is, but although this attraction (not to be confused with arousal) is perceived as genuine on the part of women, it’s an attraction born of necessity. That necessity is the need to consolidate on monogamy with a man who’ll willingly ignore not just her past Alpha Fucks indiscretions, but participate in what he’s been conditioned to believe is his duty as a man from society and start to build a “mature adult” life with her.
A Beta at the Epiphany phase believes his ship has finally come in and his self-righteous AFC strategy of patience and perseverance will be rewarded. The social conventions at the time make him believe he’s to be more lauded for ‘forgiving’ a woman’s past, irrespective of whether he can expect praise for looking past her misgivings.
The Alpha Widow or carousel riding wife-to-be may then convince herself that she in fact actually sees an Alpha potential, or a potential for long term success, in ‘settling’ on that Beta in the long term. While I have had men relate horror stories about women knowing that they were settling and being insecure about their futures before or at the time of their wedding, I’m going to suggest that this foreknowledge is rarely a conscious aspect of women’s insight. “Turning” on their husband-to-be later in is life rarely a preconceived plan, but it is a predictable outcome for men who persist in a Beta mindset throughout their marriages.
Getting Her Settled Best
Saving the Best continues to be a seminal post on Rational Male, not the least of which because so many men could relate to the experience. However, this may not have been the experience of discovering a sexual past his wife had no intention of ever allowing him to share with her , but rather the expectation men have of receiving a woman’s ‘sexual best’ in marriage. That may not amount to the sexual experimentation she had in her Party Years, but for a Beta who believes his patience and virtue are to be rewarded at long last it is an expectation of enjoying the same or better sexual urgency his wife-to-be shared with her past lovers.
That Beta believes it’s his turn, because why else would a woman commit to a lifetime investment in a man she didn’t think was her best option?
Remember, during the Epiphany Phase a woman’s rationale for choosing the Beta for a long term investment is because she’s “experienced it all” and finally “knows better than to keep dating the Bad Boys who don’t appreciate her.” Thus the Beta believes he must be the best option for her by virtue of her investment in that belief.
And if she’s finally come to realize he’s the best option, why would she not expect to enjoy her best sexual performance with him? After all, even Sheryl Sandberg said, “…in time, nothing’s sexier.”
For the Alpha Widow marrying the Beta-in-waiting, the comparison of his sexual appeal with prior lovers conflicts with her need to finalize the long term security she couldn’t with her previous Alphas (or the men she perceived as Alpha). Thus comes reserved, self-restrained and self-conscious sex with her new Beta provider. She knows that sex with her Beta lacks the intensity of her prior lovers, but falls back on her Epiphany Phase rationalizations that she’s “doing it for the right reasons this time”.
That right reason being of course getting pregnant to further consolidate long term provisioning.
Our Beta simply lacks the same sexual experience as his wife-to-be to know any better (unless of course he finds proof of that experience later), but he gradually suspects her progressive lack of passion, reservations and self-consciousness by comparing it to porn or some of the other women’s he’s had sex with.
Social conventions abound for women to rely on as they become less incentivized to have sex with their Beta after the first child. Body image considerations, ‘mismatched libidos’ and “well, sex is supposed to taper off after marriage, everyone knows that” are just some of the prepackaged tropes ready for use.
The Turning
Once the first (and possibly second) child arrives, a woman’s order of intimate priorities changes, “turns” to that of the child. The sex “reward”, the ‘cookie time for good boy’, for desired behavior or performance ‘turns’ off, or sex is used as an intermittent reward for desired behavior (i.e. Choreplay). Sex becomes a utility; a positive reinforcer for her Beta increasing his provisioning capacity rather than the true visceral enjoyment she had with her past lovers.
This new functionality sex represents to a wife becomes ‘turning’ on her husband who believed he would always be her most intimate priority. In the instance of a woman marrying her ‘Alpha Provider’ this may in fact be the case, but as with the hierarchies of love that Alpha doesn’t have the same concern with, and didn’t marry his wife under the same pre-expectations a Beta does.
For the man who persists in his Beta mindset (or the guy who regresses into that mindset) this ‘turning’ becomes more and more pronounced. The turning comes out of the bedroom and into other aspects of their relationship – finances, familial ties, her expectations of his ambitiousness, his asserting himself at work or with their mutual friends – on more and more fronts he’s compared to other men and the ghosts of the Alphas she knows or has known.
Even though the Beta is aware his children are now his wife’s true priority, his Blue Pill conditioning still predisposes him to sacrifices. Again, he meets with ready-made social conventions that shame his discontent; “Is sex all that’s important to you?” It shouldn’t be, because it’s really “what’s on the inside that counts”, but he can’t shake the feeling he’s slipping out of her respect.
This is when Beta Dad doubles down. His Blue Pill expectations of himself require an all-consuming, self-sacrificing predisposition. The horse will work harder. His wife may have lost respect for him by this point, but his sense of honor and duty press him on. He doesn’t want to be like his oppressive or non-present father was. He wants to ‘out-support’ his father’s ghost, or what he believes ‘other guys’ would do when their marriages get tough.
So he waits it out, but she’s ‘turned’ on him by this point. It wasn’t planned, but all of his martyr-like determination only makes her that much more resentful for having settled on this Beta. After a certain stressing point, her disinterest or indignation goes even beyond his capacity to stay committed to a losing investment. These are the guys who tell me, “Damn Rollo, where where you when I was 30? I wish I’d known then what I know now.”
Do all marriages and relationships follow this schedule? No, but it’s important that men know the signs, understand what’s really expected of them and know when they’re being settled on despite all a woman’s self-interested refutations of that. It’s important they realize that performance isn’t limited to how well they meet a woman’s expectations, but that performance means ignoring those preconceptions and exceeding them because he has a passion to excel on his own, and for himself.
It’s important that he lives in his own Frame and that any woman, wife or otherwise, participates in his Frame at his pleasure. Beta men rarely have those expectations, beginning from a position of scarcity and a preconditioned responsibility to forgive a woman’s sexual strategy while still being gushingly appreciative that she chose him to settle on.
January 19th, 2015 at 7:52 pm
From the OP:
“And if she’s finally come to realize he’s the best option, why would she not expect to enjoy her best sexual performance with him? After all, even Sheryl Sandberg said, ‘…in time, nothing’s sexier.'”
Ahhhh….but….as the one who settled her role is only to enjoy his best performance, and grade it. She has nothing’s prove to him. Her performance is over, and since she conned commitment out of her mark it was a obviously a good performance. Now she can relax and enjoy the proceeds of her lies. Now she can get to work punishing the man she conned. Never is gratitude or appreciation needed. A mugger is never grateful to his victims for allowing themselves to e victimized. A con man is never appreciative of a mark, especially one who refuses to see the con.
Again the male flaw of believing in reciprocity.
January 19th, 2015 at 8:14 pm
@girlwithdragontatoo – Interesting commentary and thanks for clarifying what is chilling. One of the things that struck me when I shared a bit more of my nightmare above is how rarely I actually let people know how hurt I was and am about what was done to me. It was cruel and it wrecked the dreams I had of being a father and a husband, but it seems that society has no real listening to that, or about incel guys or – wait – any male suffering.
Really, nobody wants to hear about some divorced guys woes. Anywhere. Friends will tell you to get over it, but have they cried their eyes out every Sunday night for years as they drove away after dropping their daughter back off with Mom? Nah, we don’t talk about that shit.
You see I can forgive my ex fucking around with me and our relationship blowing up. We are adults and I’m sure I brought my own shit to the table. But she also fucked up my relationship with my daughter, and did so while playing me for maximum cash over a decade. I became inconvenient. As she told me when my daughter was 11 and they had moved an hour’s drive away from me, “This is Alice’s new family, Glenn.” She disposed of me and it was so inconceivable to me that I remained in denial about it for a long time, a denial she aided and abetted. It was really sick, and it’s this kind of thing that puts the resentment/outrage on an entirely different level.
Losing my relationship with my daughter is far worse than the death of my mom at an early age, or the abuse I suffered or my divorce – it is so far beyond any of those experiences. It was a soul-sucking sadness that almost swallowed me whole for an entire year. I almost exited this earth – and then I found the Red Pill. And that was just the last couple of years. The entire 20 years since the divorce were filled with pain about the loss of having a family of my own. Also get that once this happened to me, there was no way I could ever marry again. I’m told now that means I have “women’s issues” – that’s the lot of a man. Anything I feel or do that doesn’t conform to an FI shaped view of the world is dismissed as pathology or evil or sick or creepy or aggressive – just shut up and put your head down and get back to work, you fucking pussy. That’s what the world has to say to men like me. And I’ve had it.
So when I’m not so welcoming to women here, perhaps my color commentary makes clear what I believe the stakes are in this conversation. On another level, and far more important than any single man’s suffering, we’re destroying the very fabric of our society by wrecking the family and are causing untold pain to children and fathers, all men – and women aren’t even happier. It’s diabolical, really. All for tingles. Because some women wants her romantic fantasy delivered to her NOW – or else she’ll find someone who will, “You go gurls!”
January 19th, 2015 at 8:41 pm
@ Rollo
If only that were true. The strategy is one of polygamy with as many AF men she can bang while her peak SMV is effective, and then consolidating on monogamy with the best BB male her waning SMV can effectively warrant (if at all if she waits too long). Women’s sexual strategy IS polygamy while it’s effective, and presenting the appearance of virtuousness once monogamy becomes her necessity.
I believe that is an accurate description of the dark side of hypergamy. But there are other, quantifiable forces in play. Research indicates that intelligence has a strong influence on sexual behavior and relationships.
If you’d like to read an evidence based article that discusses the relationship between intelligence and sex you’re in for a treat.
Gene Expression: Intercourse and Intelligence
Depending on the specific age and gender, an adolescent with an IQ of 100 was 1.5 to 5 times more likely to have had intercourse than a teen with a score of 120 or 130. Each additional point of IQ increased the odds of virginity by 2.7% for males and 1.7% for females. But higher IQ had a similar relationship across the entire range of romantic/sexual interactions, decreasing the odds that teens had ever kissed or even held hands with a member of the opposite sex at each age.
By the age of 19, 80% of US males and 75% of women have lost their virginity, and 87% of college students have had sex. But this number appears to be much lower at elite (i.e. more intelligent) colleges. According to the article, only 56% of Princeton undergraduates have had intercourse. At Harvard 59% of the undergraduates are non-virgins, and at MIT, only a slight majority, 51%, have had intercourse. Further, only 65% of MIT graduate students have had sex. The student surveys at MIT and Wellesley also compared virginity by academic major. The chart for Wellesley displayed below shows that 0% of studio art majors were virgins, but 72% of biology majors were virgins, and 83% of biochem and math majors were virgins! Similarly, at MIT 20% of ‘humanities’ majors were virgins, but 73% of biology majors.
This research makes it seem likely that women who spend their 20s riding the CC have mid range IQs. On balance highly intelligent, logic minded people aren’t promiscuous.
And no doubt there are other forces in play that have the power to counteract the dark side of male/female wiring.
January 19th, 2015 at 9:03 pm
Disclaimer: I’m not a fan of Tina Fey but I remembered this interview on Stern
(It should be queued up to 26 min and 15s)
Tina Fey has the exact opposite reaction to Alpha males as the semi-attractive PR girl from one of my favorite RM articles of all time.
Good Girls ‘Do’
No doubt both Tina Fey and the PR girl share the same wiring for hypergamy. However other biological and social forces are in play. They offer very different responses to similar stimuli.
January 19th, 2015 at 9:13 pm
We all know this pattern is accurate. If it hasn’t happened to you yet, you’ve seen it happen to a friend or family member. It’s inevitable.
So here’s a thought: if most men marry their SMV equal, or sometimes even better when he’s looked at as the BB, then wouldn’t it be smart if you actually wanted kids to find a woman below your SMV to rear children with? If you’re a 7 or 8, marry a 6, be and stay alpha, and the chances are decreased infinitely of falling in said pattern above?
Of course, making sure she passes a battery of tests: good family, good relationship with dad, conservative, feminine hobbies, etc. It seems like the safest and most logical thing if you want kids: marry a woman who willsee you as a prize rather than a BB provider, and she will have no reason to divorce rape you, because nothing better is waiting for her. You are literally the man of her dreams, and if your SMV is truly one to two notches above hers, It won’t be hard to stay alpha with her because her SMV/beauty won’t blind you.
I see no logical reason why men who’ve swallowed the red pill who truly desire children wouldn’t seriously consider this route. You’re doing nothing more than turning the tables on women. Ahe is your version of beta bucks.
January 19th, 2015 at 10:20 pm
No doubt hypergamy is a powerful driving force. But intelligence is another force that strongly impacts behavior and relationships. Most of the time intelligence pushes people in a positive direction.
The General Intelligence Factor
The lower-IQ woman is four times more likely to bear illegitimate children than the higher-IQ woman; among mothers, she is eight times more likely to become a chronic welfare recipient. People somewhat below average are 88 times more likely to drop out of high school, seven times more likely to be jailed and five times more likely as adults to live in poverty than people of somewhat above-average IQ. Below-average individuals are 50 percent more likely to be divorced than those in the above-average category.
January 19th, 2015 at 10:42 pm
@Rollo, re: “socially mandated expectation”
I’m just saying that if women wanted to be better thought of by their own men, it would be very easy for them do so. I think it’s a deliberate choice by women to act lousy; that makes women more culpable. Even if some ill-behaved women claim they do what they do because they hear “You go, girl!” all the time, it is still possible for women to refuse to heed their nature’s call, regardless of whether that call is backed by by societal guarantees.
January 19th, 2015 at 10:48 pm
Bad Painter – I think obviously opportunistic kind of love is complicated – to answer your question directly? I don’t believe men get anything out of it to a certain extent (hence the MGTOW crowd I suppose), but at the same time, some men really do get their needs still met (and a caring, genuine wife) even though she chose him based on her looking at love through opportunistic lenses. Its complicated.
Obviously, a woman who is playing the field and then settling later for a BB provider that doesn’t turn her on (setting up their sex life for major failure and destruction/disappointment), this woman is using opportunistic love purely for her own selfish ambitions – to have had her cake and eat it too – even though she’ll NEVER be happy with the BB provider – not really happy anyway She’ll possibly end up either controlling him, or making both of their lives miserable if he resists her control.
So in short, just because women view marriage opportunistically for themselves doesn’t *always* mean they aren’t willing to make it beneficial to their husband, it really depends on how she’s using it. Its socially acceptable now (and as Rollo’s written before – even out publicly in the media) for women to use it to settle for BB later in life, not for simply using it to find the best alpha provider.
January 19th, 2015 at 10:50 pm
Cannot decide if GWADFT is a “Perfect Housewife” or a “Red Pill Woman” attempting to sleaze her way into our good graces for some ulterior motive.
Either way, it’s suspect that she hangs out at all with the beaten dogs-and-red-headed-stepchildren of the Manosphere.
January 19th, 2015 at 10:53 pm
ugh Glenn… there are no words :( I’m so sorry.
January 19th, 2015 at 11:08 pm
@BangoTango: “Beta men should have one requirement and one requirement only before marriage. That his girl friend/potential bride to be fuck his brains out for at least 6 months in the most submissive way possible, fulfilling all his sex fantasies that he always had when he was young”
The problem is they will do that easy. Any woman will screw 4 times a day until the wedding in order to lock in a guy. AWALT.
Great post as usual. Much to consider.
January 19th, 2015 at 11:41 pm
BPS, she’s been part of the RM commentariat (periodically) for a while now.
January 20th, 2015 at 12:29 am
She can kill with a smile, she can wound with her eyes
She can ruin your faith with her casual lies
And she only reveals what she wants you to see
She hides like a child, but she’s always a woman to me
She can lead you to love, she can take you or leave you
She can ask for the truth, but she’ll never believe
And she’ll take what you give her as long as it’s free
Yeah, She steals like a thief, but she’s always a woman to me
Ohhh… she takes care of herself
She can wait if she wants, she’s ahead of her time
Ohhh… and she never gives out
And she never gives in, she just changes her mind
And she’ll promise you more than the garden of Eden
Then she’ll carelessly cut you and laugh while you’re bleeding
But she’ll bring out the best and the worst you can be
Blame it all on yourself ’cause she’s always a woman to me
She’s frequently kind and she’s suddenly cruel
She can do as she pleases, she’s nobody’s fool
She can’t be convicted, she’s earned her degree
And the most she will do is throw shadows at you,
But she’s always a woman to me
Billy Joel
January 20th, 2015 at 12:47 am
“…need to consolidate on monogamy with a man who’ll willingly ignore not just her past Alpha Fucks indiscretions, but participate in what he’s been conditioned to believe is his duty as a man from society and start to build a “mature adult” life with her.”
This is a major plot element in the script of mid-to-late 30’s women I encounter who are (nearly universally) signaling for a lane change.
The only differences seem to be the actual (cumulative) total duration of carousel riding, the extent to which the AF – and corresponding alpha widowhood lingers in their current life, e.g. “friends” with exes, Facebook full of orbiters and former flings, side-car of no-strings sex at the ready, etc. and how physically attractive they (still) are. The latter – going to Glenn’s question/point, being the primary driver in said differences.
Even if they weren’t on the carousel all through their 20’s, they are hopping on because “thats just how it is” rules the day. Tinder is a perfectly normal way to “date” now.
A woman I am dating is 38 and very attractive, thus with some measure of all of the above. I dropped the ball early on, as a result of conflating her shyness and modesty (in dress and undress) for chastity and selectivity, when I failed to escalate aggressively and de facto agreed to take it slow.
Up until one hot night when she said as we were nearly naked: “With you, I wanted to wait. I wanted to wait until my birthday” (in another five weeks).
We were already five weeks and 6 dates (including day long adventures) in. Well, that was deflating, but informative. It closed the loop on earlier statements that then made more sense, i.e. relating to how difficult it is for her to take things slowly, how she tends to go all in right away, etc. We shagged that night. But it was too late; I had I put myself in the boyfriend zone, right into beta bux headlights.
So I cooled things off a little, calibrated my investment emotionally and with my time. Got busy with work, etc. We spent the next two months “dating”, doing activities, hanging out, eating, then usually sex, but limited to once a week.
Tying into Acing the Test: I got this text the other night: “Are we just sex buddies?”
I responded the next day. After a timeout period we had a conversation. She wants more. I’ve been too distant. She feels like I could “just go at any time” etc. During the conversation I learned that she indeed does usually take it fast. Has been on the carousel, but for how long and hard I have no idea. She’s dates like the SMP would predict. Multiple online accounts, finds/responds to men she finds physically hot, has sex then figures out if she likes him and wants to “date”. Or some such process.
But with me, she wanted to wait. With me, she wants a boyfriend. I told her I am not interested in being a boyfriend for a woman that has not held other men to that same standard. Unleash the usual.
She believes us to be “on the same page” and “at a fundamental level, we believe in the same things.” (Note the qualifier) She admitted that “I’ve done things differently than you in the past, some unwisely, but that has been my path…from which I’ve learned…who I am.”
Whitewashing past indiscretion: check.
Implying I am the beneficiary of her history of no-strings cock sampling: check.
The Female Journey: check.
Commodotizing male sexuality: check.
Subtle appeal to my male honor and maturity: check.
I could have written the whole thing out for her. I knew what she was going to say. I’m obviously not that bright to allow it to happen. But honestly, I’m running out of ways to play in this SMP that don’t leave me feeling like there are just no women left who aren’t looking to cash out in some way. Catching the same kind of fish no matter the bait and tackle.
And this is a woman who actually approached me cold after stalking me for several months at the pool where we both swim laps.
There is no way to win. I’m physically “hot” to her, my shit is squared away, I’m doing my best to be outcome indifferent, and I sill find myself staring an offer to play beta bux to a former carousel rider. I’m not sure what I’m going to do with her. Probably let her go find her beta bux.
Killing the beta is a f*cking chore that never seems to end. I’m thinking that nothing will end it until I just stop caring entirely. But then at that point, why bother?
@Badpainter. Enjoying your commentary lately. Your writing – how you articulate your thoughts/feelings has really evolved quite nicely.
January 20th, 2015 at 1:03 am
@Razorwire
But honestly, I’m running out of ways to play in this SMP that don’t leave me feeling like there are just no women left who aren’t looking to cash out in some way.
If they’re over 25 and single, I’m more and more convinced what you’re doing is competing for the women that either:
a) Chose the cock carousel over commitment
b) Dropped a crotch goblin with no daddy around
c) Decided shaming men for not liking fat girls is easier than hitting the gym
d) Thinks she can “Have it all” after wasting her 20s on her career
e) Are fucking psychotic
f) Were so unattractive no man wanted them and are now trying the Hail Mary
I won’t date over about 24-25 anymore. Anything older is a plate if they’re hot enough. Under no circumstances will I commit to anything over mid-20s, as you’ll only catch chicks who’ve committed hard to one of the above sins and expect you to forgive their “little indiscretions” as you found out. There sure as hell ain’t no unicorns waiting there. They’ve all been snapped up by the end of their college years, I guarantee.
I’m not sure what I’m going to do with her.
Plate her till you’re sick of things and not a moment longer. Slow things down so you can keep other women around. She’s not a keeper. She’s just a plate.
January 20th, 2015 at 1:53 am
SunW,
Thanks. I should have known, the ones that openly claim NAWALT are indeed most “like that”.
But she is quite lovely. Thoughtful. And has kept her body toned. A very kind woman. I dig her. She’s god a few wild hairs I’m sure. Has that unfortunate blend of SIW and needy, depending on the talking points. Wants some kind of marriage-like existence, yet can’t get past her solipsism to do things like learn to cook.
Like most of her sisters, can’t recognize that wanting a strapping man who runs a tight ship – and is likely well into his 40’s, means that she might have to bring something to his life that he can’t – or already hasn’t generated on his own.
Charging him full retail for pussy that was handed out to guys for a couple of cocktails or a few hours of charming banter is not adding anything; it is just one more bill to pay.
So, I mostly concur with your list, which is why I drift in/out of the market altogether, depending on how much capacity for bullshit I have at the moment. I’d rather run 10k through the hills alone in the rain than have to listen to the entitled shrills of the SIW on the prowl.
I’m almost 43. So my own age group is out of the question. I’m just not attracted to women my age. She is one of the few exceptions. A couple of others in my training group because they are fit as hell, but they are all batshit crazy and all pining after the same two guys who have 4″+ inches and 30 pounds on me. Classic.
Most of the young ones I find to be so utterly devoid of anything original or interesting that I can’t even stand to be around them – even after four fingers of rye.
I had a 25/6 y/o plate for a couple of years who was an absolute doll. We had such a great time together. But she was just starting her feminine journey. Quit her 80k year healthcare gig and moved away to live/work/school at some hippy camp in the woods. She’s my alpha widow I guess. She checks in regularly, still hoping I will change my mind and ride into her camp, bareback on a zebra, and steal her away to my hand-hewn sustainable cabin by the sea where we will make our own kombucha and lotsa little blonde babies.
As for the older bird, I don’t know about plating her. I find that the ones who are changing lanes hard – careening over to the exit from the fast lane, take too much work to spin. Plus I sense I’ve already said too much, explained a bit too much on my end. Should have just said: “yep” to her text. I knew what was coming anyhow. Rookie mistakes put me right back in beta land. Funny how that works.
January 20th, 2015 at 6:56 am
@Razorwire I’ve had this with a few girls. One girl who stays over at my place once and cooks for me and wants to see me….doesnt’ kiss me. “I dont’ know you yet….”
“There’s so many other girls…”
So instead of a huge ultimatum I just slowly started to withdraw attention and went on holiday without regular contact.
In my mind…I want her to matter less because then she’ll invariably come back.
Also, like you after several dates and still she’s turning her head…well….I may be in a situation where my game is so good otherwise it feels odd.
But from reading your story I can see my advice would not be to dump her, but rather to pull back. Be a little less enthusiastic about meeting her.
She’ll start to panic.
Girls “change” when there’s a stimulus in the environment….they go beta if they feel there’s no challenge. They panic when they like you a lot and then suddenly you’re not their “friend” anymore. That sudden withdrawl of comfort is what sparks the attraction.
January 20th, 2015 at 8:44 am
@Razorwire, re: “There is no way to win.”
Correction. There is no nice way to win.
January 20th, 2015 at 8:48 am
@gwadft, re: “Its complicated.”
I know women try to complicate it, but the root idea is quite simple. If she submits then they both win, if she does not submit then they both lose.
January 20th, 2015 at 10:04 am
walawala:
“Girls “change” when there’s a stimulus in the environment….they go beta if they feel there’s no challenge. They panic when they like you a lot and then suddenly you’re not their “friend” anymore. That sudden withdrawl of comfort is what sparks the attraction.”
Yes. I have seen this with her previously. When I got busy with work, bit of travel, and didn’t force my way into her life- more or less left it up to her to make our time a priority, I got the panic. But also that she liked me “more than she should”. She felt terribly uncomfortable being the pursuer even for a few days and let me know. This was also when she had me on her mind 99% of the time.
For the next couple of weeks I made plans with her a bit more in advance but didn’t change much else and things seemed fine. Few weeks later I got the “sex buddies” text. Interestingly this seemed to correspond to her cycle, i.e. during ovulation we shagged like demon bunnies and she made no mention of my lack of investment according to her pre-determined BF script. After, she turned on me for being distant and called out my lack of investment, etc. Certainly looking for more comfort.
IDK. I still struggle with over-intellectualizing things. I guess my natural aloofness to the fickle female (having grown up with insane women in my family helped seal that) and analytical disposition provide for a natural distance but I also have deep blue-pill beta roots that want to spring into action when a woman’s feelings are thrust to the forefront.
Of course I also have a deeply rooted aversion to paying more than the past couple dozen men.
January 20th, 2015 at 10:33 am
jf12
lol. So true. I’ve learned (through hard experience of course) that removing most of the niceness from the equation is a huge lift to my game. So when I refer to the win, or conversely the loss, I’m also referring to how difficult it is to remain true to myself in terms of how I want to engage women.
IOW, the SMP – the way women seem to want it, forces hand. It wants to pull toward darkness. Women are adamant about pressing their needs and wants to the forefront of every aspect of “dating” within the SMP even when blatantly changing lanes, going BB after extensive periods of AF.
It just moves the SMP more and more into the “just get mine” mindset which works against any approach that gives the new woman benefit of the doubt. I know, old news. But it is something I struggle with; maintaining abundance and optimism when each successive experience with a woman reinforces the opposite.
I’m still getting used to spinning plates. And while I see the benefit (necessity) of doing so, it is exceedingly difficult to do so without going full player mode. I know, why not? But I’m not looking for notches.
Yet my experience indicates that allowing things to unfold at a pace other than first-date bang is proving to play into the primacy of her lane change and all the price discrimination, obfuscation of the past, and optimization of her present options, orbiters, exes, and other attention and validation mechanisms she has turned up to 11.
January 20th, 2015 at 10:39 am
Dropped all my plates at this point as I didn’t find any of them attractive enough to have around for my birthday this weekend. Gonna treat myself to a day at the track in a Lambo and have a few high speed grins. Planning to start monk mode for a bit, hit the gym hard, revise my wardrobe, and by summer be living in new digs. Debating where to seek out a social circle to add as well.
I feel like I understand game and plate spinning well enough now that I need to try a lot more approaches after the changes. Online dating is out until I can show physical appeal that speaks for itself, and even then it’ll just be a supplement to in person game. Problem is that this place is full of wall to wall fat chicks, so ultimately once I’m out of debt I’ll be leaving the south. Just taking advantage of the low cost of living for now. This place is toxic otherwise.
January 20th, 2015 at 10:46 am
@Razorwire, re: “how difficult it is to remain true to myself in terms of how I want to engage women”
Amen to that.
re: “it is exceedingly difficult to do so”
Not just for your specific issue, but as a general mantra for all dealings with women, keep in mind that the key tenet of sexual conflict is that it is to the female’s advantage to make sex more costly for the male than it needs to be. Almost always she’s bluffing; almost always she’s a whole lot easier than she wants you to think.
January 20th, 2015 at 10:50 am
@ Glenn
re: “Really, nobody wants to hear about some divorced guys woes.”
“Laugh, and the world laughs with you. Weep, and you weep alone.”
The last time I woke up alone after a failed suicide attempt sums up all I have to say about this. Not even crying, just feeling numb and waking up alone in a room after failing to kill yourself and not having anyone to ask you if you’re okay, or hug you, or respond to anything. Nothing. Just staring at the ceiling by yourself wondering what the point is in even being alive if life is so devoid of enjoyment, connection, reward, meaningful relationships, etc.
Humans are hard-wired for connection. A lot of times I see myself more as a social experiment than a human being. I’m so used to not having any of my needs met I have a very hard time understanding what my needs even are. But I do know that I didn’t pick them — this stuff is hard wired into humans. I haven’t suffered so much in my life because I wanted to, any more than someone struggling with chronic starvation wants to suffer for having a lack of food. It’s just a physiological need, and you suffer when it isn’t met.
But such an awful amount of work to do just to try to get by with getting our needs met. Rollo’s written about how men “need sex” —
— so guys like me who’ve had to learn to cope with not having those needs met for literally years on end, i.e., on par with or worse than the infamous “Incel Confessions” article..it’s like someone who’s been half-starved their entire lives, are at a major disadvantage, and are thrown to the wolves and say “grab a stick and start learning how to feed yourself.”
Which is what you have to do, at the end of the day. Doesn’t matter how hard you have it. But it’s hard to give a fuck about the guy next to you getting torn up by the wolves when you’ve been forced into operating solely out of self-interest.
If the message is “shut up and deal with it,” that’s the attitude we learn to take towards other people. That’s why I essentially cucked that guy. My attitude at the time was “fuck him – let him deal with it. Grab a stick and learn how to feed yourself. And if you get eaten alive – sorry, not my problem, all I was doing was watching my own back.”
I was holding him to the same standards I feel like other people have held me to. Looking back on all the drama it caused, if I had the chance to do it again I would’ve just blocked her right off the bat. Not sent one message in response. Just automatically “don’t go there” — blocked.
Still, I keep flipping back and forth. Being too “moral” is what got me into this sexless situation in the first place. If I put everyone else’s feelings and needs ahead of mine then I never get what I want, and then I end up trying to kill myself and wake up and realize — oh, no one gives a fuck about me…what am I getting out of this, again?
I don’t see myself as unique. Again, I see myself as a social experiment: nobody could go through what I’ve gone through and not have issues. I’m doing the best that I can, but if we’re going to say that sex is a “need”, we have to admit that there are real consequences for not having that “need” met — just like you will develop mental problems, a deranged, slow metabolism, and a whole bunch of other issues from not having enough food to eat and starving on a regular basis — and taken far enough, it’ll kill you.
I’d say I’m doing really well considering the depths I’ve been to and how long this has gone on.
And I wonder about the “need” for sex — how purely physical it is, and how much of it is subjective, on a more developmental and social level, i.e. developing and maintaining empathy, the ability to function in society and cooperate with others, form healthy friendships/relationships in general, etc. I don’t have a fucking clue, all I know is I have not had a good time on this planet and the sole reason for that is the lack of connection I feel with other people, women and men alike. Something is just not right. I can’t tell how much of it is me and how much of it is this culture we’re living in.
“It’s no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.”
I seem to have to activate “hermit mode” pretty frequently to maintain my sanity. Although personally I think that’s just a maladaptive response to living in a sick society.
Ever heard of the Rat Park studies, anyone?
http://io9.com/the-rat-park-experiment-486168637
More info if you search it. Very interesting stuff.
Guys like Glenn, and guys like me, and probably the vast majority of guys — all we ever wanted was to just have normal, happy, peaceful lives. We’re going to die anyway. None of us have wanted to have to adapt to these circumstances.
We have to learn this stuff because we can’t find any other way to survive. We all have needs. Social/sexual needs are a big part of that. The unfortunate thing is when it’s “every man for himself.”
That’s how I’ve been feeling. And fuck — what I had to go through just to get that blowjob on New Year’s.
It was worth it. But holy shit. If I come off as having no sympathy for women either, it’s because I don’t. I was circumcised (i.e. my genitals were mutilated as an infant), am currently trying to restore my foreskin to get at least some degree of sexual pleasure outside of orgasm, which has been going slow that progress is basically not noticeable at all, and with how much I lost, I will be lucky to have ANY coverage of my glans after a few years of manual tugging —
— and have had to work extremely fucking hard through all my anxiety and other issues just to get one blowjob and start trying to spin some plates, which I’m not even getting any action from yet. I’m pushing and trying to learn the “Game,” but I’m also aware I can lose a girl in a split second and I’ve had a couple plates “break”, including that first girl I hooked up with that never wanted to get back together again, the older single mom I thought was a shoe-in for at least getting some regular pussy for a little while, certainly more than just once.
That’s been the fire under my ass lately: if anyone gives me shit, they can go fuck themselves. I don’t think I’ll be messing around with married women again, but my attitude is still that people who have a problem with me should just fuck off.
If I have to work so hard to just get a BASELINE of my needs met….people, like MOST WOMEN, who get those baseline needs met EASILY and CONVENIENTLY and almost ALWAYS via their OWN DISCRETION….
….sorry, but you can go fuck yourself. I didn’t even have the opportunity to have an intact dick. All the most sensitive parts were cut off and leaving the glans to dry out — it’d be similar to having the clitoral hood removed. Any time I feel myself getting attracted to a girl these days, I remind myself of that: she has NO CLUE what I’ve been through, and will NEVER CARE. I need to get my needs met, and if I even THINK about what she wants, she will use me, take advantage of me, and turn me into a beta bitch to the exact degree that I ALLOW myself to be a beta bitch.
They’re the ones freely spinning plates, have easily 40-50 guys lined up at any given time on any dating app who are DTF pretty much any time at all, so in case they need any action, there’s never a lack for it. And the rejection for girls is BASICALLY nonexistent, which is part of why they can’t handle it — spoiled brats.
They will drop me. Rollo’s said Game is adversarial because it has to be. Not because we want it to be that way. The gloves are coming off for a reason.
I’m not against a little dash of MGTOW here and there. Even if a guy is spinning plates, MGTOW is basically what he’s doing in-between fucking girls anyway. And if you can handle MGTOW you can handle the reality that plates break easily and women are unpredictable — better to treat them like livestock.
Is that offensive? Fuck no. Every girl knows that most guys would be willing to give their hearts to them, right out of their chest. Game is adversarial because it has to be — not because men want it to be that way.
The vast majority of men, in reality, are far more susceptible to being beta chumps. The natural Alphas are an extreme minority. The Alphas don’t talk, they walk the walk — they might not say they’re treating women like livestock, but that’s what they’re doing — and guess what? It works beautifully for them.
I’m taking a little break for now. The MGTOW national anthem, heh:
January 20th, 2015 at 10:56 am
@Sun Wukong, re: “I need to try a lot more approaches after the changes.”
Why not before/during the changes? Even in monk mode you can do a closing of your choice.
January 20th, 2015 at 11:02 am
@Softek, re: “the rejection for girls is BASICALLY nonexistent, which is part of why they can’t handle it”
If we accept as given that the female’s role is to reject as many men as she can, then it all makes sense, and maybe it’ll make your male role (which is to overcome as much potential rejection as you can) more palatable.
January 20th, 2015 at 11:27 am
Just be wary, “Splendid Isolation” can rapidly turn into “Splendid Masturbation.” I would still much rather be spinning plates than going full MGTOW, even with women’s bullshit.
I agree with when Glenn said he thought MGTOW was a kind of “rage quit.”
Just make women sign a liability waiver that you’re not responsible for any addictions they might develop to your cock after you hook up with them. This day and age you gotta go legal to protect yourself.
How fucking hilarious would that be? These girls all wanted it so bad they signed waivers showing full consent, that I am not responsible to maintain any contact with them in any way, shape or form after any and all present and future sexual encounters, and that I am also not responsible for any alleged mental disorders or otherwise stated mental illnesses that are diagnosed after any sexual encounters with me.
Then they just have to pay a small Alpha Fucks co-pay. The new motto will be “Alpha Fucks and Gets the Bucks.” These women have to learn that this stuff doesn’t come without a price tag.
Those independent business bitches are gonna have to pony up some money if they want their hair pulled while they’re being bent over the kitchen table. The “boyfriend sex” comes at a lower price. If they want the “cucking” experience, the hourly rate increases exponentially depending on how much they want done to them. If they actually have a husband, he has to sign off on it — and if he refuses, she has to agree to posting her picture on the “Wall of Shame.”
RISKY! Women should eat that right up. Talk about an adrenaline rush.
Anyone interested in becoming business partners with me? Let’s get this going. We ain’t gonna live forever.
January 20th, 2015 at 12:01 pm
@jf12
Numerous reasons. I need downtime, I’d rather focus on me right now, I want new living arrangements to bring them home to, my current haunts are awful for chicks so I need to locate new ones, I feel plateaued on the attractiveness of chicks I can pull right now, and I’ve started to notice a desire to expand my social circle more acutely lately. Plus I want to use my spare time on a couple business ideas.
TL;DR: I’m worth more of my time than the women I’m meeting are right now.
January 20th, 2015 at 12:01 pm
Given a female’s opposition, resistance, reluctance, hostility, etc., what should a male’s strategy be, assuming he wants to overcome that opposition?
1) Appeasement. This is intended to lessen her resistance. This is what women and society recommend. It seems to be the easier way, but it doesn’t actually work. The appeaser is always disappointed, and the appeasee is never satisfied.
2) Aggravation. This is intended to shatter her resistance. Agreeing and amplifying her opposition is just the first step.
January 20th, 2015 at 12:03 pm
Badpainter,
I liked your date story. I think a man asking “what’s in it for me?” about a marriage is similar to a woman asking the same thing about casual sex. Nothing objective is there for you, but sometimes people do it because “it felt right”. That’s the only reason.
There is also “want to have children” reason, but that’s besides the point.
January 20th, 2015 at 12:04 pm
That which separates us can become that which connects us.
January 20th, 2015 at 12:05 pm
Just be sure to thank me when you guys are running businesses getting paid $4,500 an hour to fuck “Strong Independent Women” that can’t find guys to treat them like the sluts they really want to be treated like anywhere else.
But by the time this is up and running, most women will be able to afford that price tag with ease, if things keep going the way they’ve been going.
If I wrote this into a book it would be so diabolically offensive, it would probably become infamous overnight. Book burnings are good publicity. Can you imagine the uproar around a fictional story that lays out AF/BB, but instead of pandering to women’s fantasies of optimizing their hypergamy (50 Shades of Gray, Wuthering Heights, etc.) by doing it SUBTLY and COVERTLY, did it OVERTLY? And the story was a fantasy about men optimizing their sexual strategy?
I can’t even imagine what would ensue, and honestly I would also be afraid for my life. Bitches be crazy. It might even be a Freedom of Speech issue — I’m sure some feminist(s) would try to go after that, saying that it would be encouraging rape and murder of women even though the book would have NONE of that in it anywhere, not even remotely. They’d find a way, for sure, to twist it into looking like it did contain that.
…But having TRP creatively weaved into a novel. I wouldn’t want my name attached to that. But if someone did that I wouldn’t mind camping out in the background and watching the fire and brimstone start to fall.
Our protagonist would be a hopeless beta, whose eyes are progressively opened to TRP through a series of fantastical adventures heavily based on intergender dynamics —
— a truly relatable Beta, not the kind that gets the girl in romantic comedies, but the kind that IRL gets fucked, and not in the good way —
— and by the end of the novel he will have completely changed and learned how to optimize and prioritize his own sexual strategy.
Man, this would be perfect. That could be revolutionary stuff. The manosphere has already caused a lot of hype — can you imagine a controversial novel? You want something people aren’t ready for and wouldn’t know how to handle, that’s your ticket. If there’s something like this already out there, let me know, but I’m definitely not aware if there is. Definitely nothing like that would ever be allowed to go mainstream in this day and age. But self-publishing and Internet notoriety these days…heh.
I ain’t doin’ it but if anyone else wants to…I’m going after you for royalties if you do.
*steeples fingers*
January 20th, 2015 at 12:07 pm
jf12
“Almost always she’s bluffing; almost always she’s a whole lot easier than she wants you to think.”
No doubt. In the theme of open hypergamy, AF/BB, etc. this is the case in every single woman I have dated over the past 5 years.
At first I thought it was just the young women, the ones in their 20’s getting burned out on hookup culture – who wanted to be led into rainbows and sunsets with their steady. Then I thought it was the epiphany girls who had “finally figured out what they wanted in a man” in order to secure their next step on the status ladder; the second kid by 32 variety. Then I thought it was post-wall women who had “made some mistakes”, “dated” a wide-variety of men, in order to become who they are today – just in time for me! Of course, as they say, the one common variable in all of this was me.
I used to be a bit shocked when a woman would casually divulge, unprompted, the ways of her colorful past in the same conversation – even sentence, with her claims that those days are behind her and how much she learned about herself, what she wants in a man; why I should should accept her past without question in tandem with her newfound internal valuation of her sexuality, which was of course quite high at this point. While in reality they were still quite willing to put sex first, as long as I met the requirement of being hawt enough.
Now the only question is when this conversation happens.
Many still want props for being so sexually active/attractive/liberal in years past (projection of preselection) while simultaneously wanting credit for desiring to be so reserved and careful and methodical (now) with me. A kind of bait and switch where they tell me all about how all those ghost cocks devoured the bait while expecting this to entice me to bite the naked hook.
Those are easy to migrate off the relationship ladder. But even with the increasingly open revelations of the lane change, it seems that many still hold onto the obfuscation, the shoveling of this dissonance as long as possible and are then “hurt” when I don’t bite.
The tedium in having to endure these table-reads, different women, same script, is a big part of what keeps me thinking I’m stupid for not playing full-court player game, not hip-checking the table into submission from day 1 even it that means risking tilt-mode and losing my quarter.
January 20th, 2015 at 12:12 pm
Men prefer themselves to be appeased. Especially female-aggravators i.e. alphas, who by definition have come to *expect* to be mollified by females. If you ask those alphas, they will say that women’s natural role is to be pleasing to them. And the women will agree! Thusly sexual conflict handily explains the apex fallacy.
January 20th, 2015 at 12:19 pm
@Razorwire, re: “The tedium in having to endure these table-reads, different women, same script, is a big part of what keeps me thinking I’m stupid for not playing full-court player game, not hip-checking the table into submission from day 1 even it that means risking tilt-mode and losing my quarter.”
I’ve determined, and I am real-time deriving, that any degree of Finesse is nothing but Appeasement. To best the Kobayashi Maru pinball game, use a crowbar and sledgehammer. Don’t get pretty, get big.
January 20th, 2015 at 12:35 pm
@Razorwire, re: “the naked hook”
A beautiful metaphor.
January 20th, 2015 at 12:50 pm
@ Emma the Emo
You understand my position. If children are beside the point then there is no point. If marriage has any point or goal state it is in family formation, without that why would, why should anyone (any man) bother?
January 20th, 2015 at 1:03 pm
Yep. In all of what I ramble on about, the apex fallacy reared its head in every single case. Doing what (apex) men get to do, or what (apex) men do in general, which is to express and indulge their desire for sexual variety, is always named among the rationale for her AF path and/or journey of self-discovery that led her to me.
And I’m becoming convinced that if I want to maintain the perception of being at/near the apex of men, I need to fully adopt – live into – their expectations. Which is just a way of saying: BE the man who expresses and indulges his natural desire for sexual variety. Hammer and crowbar indeed.
If women are going to assume that all men get to do xyz (because in their experience of Alpha Fux, this is effectively true), the reality that only 10% of men actually can/do is irrelevant. The reality that not all men actually want to flex that kind of power across a wide swath of women is irrelevant. Being “different” in this regard only works to lower my value in her eyes.
Which is why the SMP seems to force my hand, the one with the hammer. Anything short of that seems to just end up being the equivalent of carrying the buckets of water to my own waterboarding.
January 20th, 2015 at 1:06 pm
“If you love me right, we fuck for life
On and on and on” (Tove Lo, side note: this is on the radio with f…)
@razorwire
what is it you want out of the relationships?
January 20th, 2015 at 1:06 pm
@softie – That book has already been written. The Game by Neil Strauss. Fucking great read if you haven’t.
January 20th, 2015 at 1:21 pm
Badpainter,,
“If marriage has any point or goal state it is in family formation, without that why would, why should anyone (any man) bother?”
Indeed. All women squirm when the cost/benefit or purpose of marriage is cut open from the man’s perspective.
The whole thing can be traced back to the primacy of female sexual optimization. My favorite question is: how can marriage and no-fault divorce even coexist in the same entity? Isn’t it just a more expensive version of “dating”?
But then why even “date” a woman who has just f*cked men for fun in the past? Why go sexually exclusive when there is always a tacit understanding that both are free to go if (when) they find something better or desire to be single again? What does transient sexual exclusivity even mean other than a subordination of male sexual preference for that of female sexual preference – as long as she holds that particular preference.
Her optionality is always baked in. At any point along the progression toward marriage and of course marriage itself.
So even just in discussion marriage is a kind of trump card for women, but only in the game that places her sexual optionality at the apex. Why date? She (now) wants marriage. Why go exclusive? She (now) holds her physical intimacy dear because it is necessary to transact marriage.
So she can trump our questions of “what is the point of ____” at any point by (now) including those things as essential to the progression – even if there is not actual progression, because the end-game of marriage is the summation of these approximations along the way.
Which of course means that it is the summation of her sexual primacy. Which takes us back to step 1. Whats in it for me?
January 20th, 2015 at 1:29 pm
“It’s the unspoken admission that women only want to want, they only desire to receive. … Anything a man wants has to be taken, or compelled, forced, stolen, coerced, or manipulated from them. Nothing will be given freely.”
Nothing will be given freely, unless it makes her happy to do so.
One prerequisite for that desire to serve is a feeling of absolute certainty and security in her position as his property, which is a state that must be established from the very beginning and maintained with complete consistency. And this state can only exist with respect to a man who is superior to her, overall and in all relevant ways, and who has the will to do what others cannot.
(The difference is between repeatedly “taking, or compelling, forcing, stealing, coercing, or manipulating from” a well, or unearthing a spring, and both require effort.)
This invariant is something that I have observed in relationships that have endured differently than those normally discussed here.
A woman cannot be happy to serve unless she can relax into her natural role, and she can’t relax unless she can lean against a man who is always a rock, for her, and against the outside world.
Manipulation and other forms of non-strength are not effective in the long term, because they will eventually be recognized as something that is not solid or real.
Furthermore, it is reasonable for a woman to demand that her man have the qualities required to lead and dominate her.
Consider that there are many men that other men see as inadequate and would never even agree to follow, and yet some would demand that a woman should be willing to follow and submit to such a man, and even allow him to penetrate her body and cause a part of him to grow inside of her.
The problem is not that women are too picky, but that they are not picky enough, because their criteria / filters do not match their environment.
For example: “When a woman knows that other women are sleeping with you, she knows (or would have known in earlier societies) that you have the skills and status to act this way without someone killing you. Now, loser deadbeats with no meaningful status or skills can act like alphas and other men won’t kill them for it, but female preference has not yet evolved to reflect that.”
The natural unique role of women is to make babies (and to have the mental and emotional form to interact meaningfully with them during their early years), and this role requires them to be supported and protected.
This is the fundamental role for continuity, so the natural role of men must necessarily be complementary, to that.
The capacity and mindset to interact in a way that is meaningful and beneficial to infants is not the same one that is required for successful leadership against the outside world, and Nature seems to believe in parsimony and complementarity.
And being fucked is the submissive position, so the complementary position must be the dominant one, and so on.
A woman is to a man as a child is to a parent. When you were young boys, did it ever occur to you (and did you even have the capacity) to consider your parents’ needs and weaknesses in the manner that you expect of women now?
It is Nature that doesn’t let men be successful by acting like women, and vice versa.
.
“If the Black Knight thinks he’s getting anything of value … from her he’s mistaken. … The Black Knight Alpha never works out because when she wants commitment she has nothing of value to offer in return, which allows her to continue to believe he is giving without greater expectation than hers.”
If one thinks that he is getting something of value, then he is, by definition.
While the idea that women have nothing of value to offer (which is different than not offering anything of value) may be true for some men, it neither applies to all men, nor necessarily to many or most.
In a complementary relationship, both get more than they give, because they each get what they cannot create for themselves.
(This is an extension of what girlwithadragonflytattoo said: “… some men really do get their needs still met (and a caring, genuine wife) even though she chose him based on her looking at love through opportunistic lenses. It’s complicated.”)
A “Black Knight Alpha” would make his expectations known, in no uncertain terms, from the beginning, and she would be the happier for it.
And, as Captin save 2hos said, “I think the ‘Alpha Provider’ might be more common than many of the posters here think”.
One problem is that too many men start out being timid, and then constantly second-guess themselves according to the metric of “will [ ] make her run away?”.
This will not be the case if you clearly display your attitude about your relative positions and consequent expectations, from the very beginning, thus giving her the opportunity to run away or to agree that you will be exercising your options as you see fit, and that “she will be participating in your Frame at your pleasure”.
.
“I’ve had many of my cousins cry at our family parties and reunions over that one Alpha they just couldn’t get over. Most were anywhere from 14-16, when they first experienced their Alpha love.”
Which is one reason why that was the normal and expected age of marriage, in the not too distant past, and to men who were mature enough to provide the essential leadership / nurturing, and dominance / stability.
You always end up with the necessity of having to finish raising your wife, whether you recognize it or not. The difference is that the probability of success decreases dramatically and non-linearly with her increasing age.
January 20th, 2015 at 1:53 pm
nice topic and I agree- marriage is not worth it. Kids- well, this is personal but never ever do it for the women or ‘out from your love to her’ (most stupid reason IMO) or because she says ‘that’s what mature men do’
by a strange coincidence I’ve recently wrote one about marriage
https://redmalehummingbird.wordpress.com/2015/01/14/marriage-and-kids-a-fairytale/
January 20th, 2015 at 2:05 pm
@ Glenn
I haven’t. I can’t believe I haven’t looked it up though, I heard about it months and months ago. Just read the synopsis now. Looks great, although for some reason thinking about all this stuff is literally making me nauseous today. Just reading over that little summary made me feel like I was gagging myself with a cold spoon.
On the plus side, this has exponentially increased my appreciation for “male bonding” — like my friend was busting my balls ALL NIGHT the other night. And I’d give it right back. Basically:
So that was refreshing. Reminded me of some of the stories you’ve shared about times you’ve had with your buddies.
You know, women have a way of sucking the fun out of everything when they infiltrate male spaces. One of the best ways to de-pedestalize women, I’m finding, is to take up activities that you legitimately do NOT want women participating in, and would even be angry if they did, or tried to. Like, you’re a girl, get the fuck out of here and go play with your dolls, you don’t belong here, you’re ruining my good time, just leave now.
Men losing touch with that is NOT a good thing. Dissolving the boundaries between the sexes that encourages their natural complementarity is NOT a good thing. Ideologically it sounds great, but in reality, well, we all know that story.
Funny about that, there was this girl tagging along with us before we dropped her off to go hang out without her. She literally said, before getting into my car, “I’m going to sit in the backseat, where I belong.”
That kind of surprised me. I don’t remember what I said, but it was something along the lines of jokingly saying, “Well that’s good you know your place,” after turning around and looking her in the eye with a big smile. I think she was expecting us to go back inside the house with her, but instead after she got out and went into the house I just drove off with my friend to go to his other friend’s apartment to hang out.
January 20th, 2015 at 2:17 pm
Eon – “In a complementary relationship, both get more than they give, because they each get what they cannot create for themselves.”
For the man, other than giving live birth, what would that be? I have yet to find anything I want or need, that actually exists, that I can’t create or obtain for myself by spending extra time at labor and simply buying or contracting for services.
January 20th, 2015 at 2:43 pm
@bp
Just kids, though if the rest of the first world follows France even that benefit will disappear. After all, how can having your own kids be seen as a benefit when you’re not even allowed to verify they’re yours? Spin plates for sex (because apparently expecting it in LTR/marriage is “patriarchy”), and for emotional fulfillment get a dog plus some good male friends. Provision for yourself because you’re a man. Learn to cook for yourself because women can’t/won’t do it anymore (patriarchy again). Actually now that I think about it every time one of the past benefits of marriage for men comes up, it’s written off as part of the patriarchy bogeyman.
Where did all the benefits of marriage for men go? They were labeled “patriarchy” and obliterated. The last remaining benefit has been treated the same way in some places, and I’m sure that will spread. Just wait until they make it illegal to be a single male, then the benefit will become “You don’t go to jail.”
January 20th, 2015 at 2:59 pm
Eon: “In a complementary relationship, both get more than they give, because they each get what they cannot create for themselves.”
Badpainter: “For the man, other than giving live birth, what would that be? …”
.
Badpainter,
One possibility is that a woman can be a positive emotional catalyst, which is mentally, and especially physiologically, extremely beneficial to a man.
Such a catalyst is independent input, and thus can only be provided by someone else. And since it is intrinsically intimate, for a heterosexual man, it can only come from a woman.
This “emotional support” is something that many commenters on this site have described needing but never finding. And the reason is that they are starting as Betas from a position of weakness, but “A woman nurturing her Alpha man nurtures his strength, not his weaknesses”.
January 20th, 2015 at 3:09 pm
Women expect and demand more of men than they do of themselves. After learning about the red-pill, I’ve given up on women, marriage and children. I’ve seen plenty of bad behavior from women, and I had thought that I just needed to find the right, good woman. I’ve remained single and childless so far (early 40’s), and I only aim for spinning plates and getting what I can get now. I will focus on my hobbies, education, male friends, and my business endeavors.
Can someone convince me that marriage and finding someone is doable with this knowledge? How do you men that remain married manage?
January 20th, 2015 at 3:13 pm
@Razorwire, re: “The reality that not all men actually want to flex that kind of power across a wide swath of women is irrelevant. Being “different” in this regard only works to lower my value in her eyes.
Which is why the SMP seems to force my hand, the one with the hammer.”
Yes. Hypergamy doesn’t care about a man’s lack of desire to act more alpha, to swing a bigger hammer.
January 20th, 2015 at 3:17 pm
@Anon32, re: “Can someone convince me that marriage and finding someone is doable with this knowledge?”
No, sorry. It’s virtually impossible in this climate. Approximate the only way to find women worth marrying is to be a bad man not worth marrying.
re: “How do you men that remain married manage?”
If we have hope for this life only, we would be of all men most miserable.
January 20th, 2015 at 3:18 pm
@eon, re: “A woman nurturing her Alpha man nurtures his strength”
Wrong word. Admiring his biceps is approximately the opposite of nurturing him.
January 20th, 2015 at 3:19 pm
@eon
One possibility is that a woman can be a positive emotional catalyst, which is mentally, and especially physiologically, extremely beneficial to a man.
Unicorns can fill this role. For the rest of the women available to modern men (read “damn near all of them”), this benefit is a idealistic load of horse shit. It’s simply not available.
January 20th, 2015 at 3:19 pm
@Sun Wukong, re: “Actually now that I think about it every time one of the past benefits of marriage for men comes up, it’s written off as part of the patriarchy bogeyman.”
Well then, I have an assignment for you. Every time you think about one of the past benefits of marriage for men, write it down. We should have a list.
January 20th, 2015 at 3:23 pm
@Razorwire, re: “BE the man who expresses and indulges his natural desire for sexual variety.”
This is indeed what works with women.
January 20th, 2015 at 3:35 pm
@Razorwire, re: “Whats in it for me?”
Same assignment. I’ve asked this question enough, so I should give it a shot, with a twist. We will define marriage for this purpose as a woman having sex exclusively with a man. What would be in it for me if female reproductive strategies were subordinated to male reproductive strategies? What would Marriage For A Man look like?
I think it looks like a giant harem. He has sex with a woman during her receptive fertile time, then he moves on to the next woman. He never has to deal with any of her shit tests or nonsense or feelz, except for her admiring his biceps.
January 20th, 2015 at 3:36 pm
@ eon
I’ll take your word for it. And I admit that sounds nice.
However, nothing in my experience or observation suggests such a thing exists. From your explanation it seems the men who can obtain this would those who have no need for it. For the rest of us it seems a fragile luxury we can ill afford, and can’t rely on maintaining once obtained. In fact I doubt I’d even be able to recognize it at this point without dismissing it as yet another effort to con me.
January 20th, 2015 at 3:41 pm
Re: being the rock
Wave: why are you always so hard? (cue tears)
Rock: shut up
January 20th, 2015 at 3:52 pm
What’s in it for me?
Since the best men can have multiple women, what can possibly be in it for me to strive to be the best man *other* than the having of multiple women? If I’m to strive to be the best man to her, why doesn’t she have to strive to be multiple women to me?
January 20th, 2015 at 3:52 pm
@ Badpainter – I’m with you. I’m having a harder and harder time imagining partnering up with a woman. I’m actually starting to explore partnering up with a man in terms of living arrangements as I want more social interaction at home, I do better with people around. I can partner with a man in an explicit way that simply isn’t possible with women. I’ve also been discussing retiring with some of my other guy friends who are single too. Cheap version if we all are broke in retirement is Ecuador, better is the 1.2 million dollar lake house I have my eyes on in NH. Gotta turn one of my cloud/software clients into a big success and cash out on the equity.
And as I boil down what it is that I can do to improve my chances with women it’s really quite simple. The only thing I’m not currently is muscular and cut up. I’ve made real progress but am still only maybe halfway there. So, it’s time to bear down on the gym and diet and throw myself into that. Being happy to take off my shirt and dive into my lake for a swim by June is the goal. I have a trainer, we have a great program – all that’s missing is my effort for the past few weeks while I’ve been licking my wounds. Fyi, I refuse to denigrate myself for feeling low as long as I don’t wallow. I get to be down sometimes now and the entire world can fuck itself if it doesn’t like it. Have to give a big shout out to Sun Wukong as his counsel to me and insights about how little choice I really had in all this were very helpful.
The RP has made me an astute observer of women and men when they interact. It’s just so clear that fit, ripped men get immediate attention from women. Sure, I’m getting more love now than I have in a while after losing 4 belt notches, but really, I’m just scratching the surface. It also seems to me that young, hot women are essentially stalking the earth, scanning for alpha cock. I’m in NYC right now and the hottie competition her is off the hook, but the gradient makes me less of a player. Interesting to watch how context shifts the SMP around.
I’ve managed to brush off my funk and I’m also having some great progress in business these past couple of weeks which is a nice boost after a month and half of a lot of bullshit. When I was in AA after I first quit drinking (not for me long term), they talked about “not quitting 5 minutes before the miracle happens”. I’m set up to make this the best year of my life in a very long time and that’s due to all my hard work and focus and keeping my eye on the prize it’s what it’s all about.
January 20th, 2015 at 4:02 pm
@ Badpainter
“I’ll take your word for it. And I admit that sounds nice.
However, nothing in my experience or observation suggests such a thing exists.”
Yup. Apex Fallacy at work. I’m reminded of my boss bragging about his new car to an unpaid intern, though he didn’t intend it that way.
Though what eon said actually makes a lot of sense to me, it’s not everyman’s script.
January 20th, 2015 at 4:02 pm
@Razorwire,
I’m right there with you. What else can we do though? I can spin plates easily now. I have a plate coming over tonight and texted three to see who responded first. If the other two respond then I can tell them sorry I made other plans and go dark until I get 2-3 texts from them without response or I want them to come over or go to a comedy club with me or something.
This isn’t how I want life to be but this is how it is. This is the best I can figure out right now.
One of these three, the one who is coming over tonight, has tried tirelessly to turn me into her BB. Going so far as to use the, “I love you”, after sex. For which she got absolutely no response at all nor any discussion. If she loves me she can demonstrate that with her actions. So far all I see from any of their actions is that they love themselves and they love how I make them feel. None of them even really know who I am. They know what I let them see. I’m well aware that the more blanks I fill in for them the less attractive I become.
I’m not even sure how to have an LTR anymore. My past 3 LTRs, including my horrible marriage, were with women that I would never move past plate status anymore. Perhaps my ex-wife but I’m sure she still would have cheated on me no matter how red pill aware I was. The only winning move I can even see anymore is to never commit.
Though perhaps if I spin plates long enough I’ll find a woman who is a) not fat, b) willing to actually bring more to the table then her vagina, and c) doesn’t already have a boyfriend and is looking to branch swing.
I don’t think I have absurd expectations. But apparently I do.
Since the not fat part is non-negotiable I just end up spinning plates. No attractive girl is going to bring anything beyond her vagina to the table. The plate that is coming over tonight, when she figured out I expect more from her then her giving me her vagina, went and showed me the guys she messages with on facebook. Two of them have asked her to marry them! They don’t even live in the same state as her.
I passed that shit test though. She knows I will never marry her. We both know that one day she is going to marry one of these BB. We’ve even talked about it. The sad thing is that I know I can keep her spinning even after she marries a BB.
Where do we go from here? Keep plating women and hope that you meet one who knows that she has to bring more to the table then her vagina. It just seems like such a bad idea to let a girl branch swing to me. Encourages bad behavior. Though there are many women looking to do this. They want my commitment in exchange for ceasing their current relationship. This is not an exchange that I see has any benefit for me.
January 20th, 2015 at 4:07 pm
@Glenn,
I have been overweight, underweight, and jacked at various times in my life. I am not what I have been as I have 20 pounds of muscle to go but I’m still far above the vast majority of men. I think with the unleashing of hypergamy your body is extremely important. There is no way I would get the plates as young as they are without an extremely careful diet and spending 3 days a week at the gym.
Took me 18 months to strip off 50 pounds of fat and add back 15 pounds of muscle. It was very foolish of me to let myself go.
I will also say that two years ago a stewardess guessed my age as 42 when I ordered a drink. Four months ago a different stewardess guessed my age as 27 when I ordered a drink. The only thing that has changed is I got older, thinner, and more muscular.
January 20th, 2015 at 4:12 pm
This blog is great and this post is particularly on point.
January 20th, 2015 at 4:31 pm
“what is it you want out of the relationships?”
I want more than the modern woman (apparently) has (is willing) to offer.
Is that what you were looking for? Or more along the lines of the unreasonable, the madonna-whore expectations wrapped in “double-standards”? Or something like that?
I want the same things most men want. I know my value – at least well enough to understand what that means in terms of a female counterpart.
I know and have demonstrated through action my willingness to subordinate many a-wish-list for other attributes I value more for the long-run. I’ve done same in the pursuit of said; subordination and/or deferred gratification for the greater goal.
I know the vast majority of my decisions up to this point in my life have been made in consideration of an end-goal that presumes me to be the provider, the rock, the producer of surplus – be it resources, emotion, brute force (protection), leadership, and love. At no time (until lately) have I indulged my whimsical want or hedonistic impulses at any cost to said end-goal.
I know my value is largely driven by my willingness and ability to compete, to perform; not how I wish to be valued, stripped of all utility, relieved of such duties. I know that I am entitled to nothing. I know that I am the only one responsible for my happiness.
I could go on, but words are just that. So despite my stated desires, within the SMP my actions to-date seem to largely suggest that I desire to be the beta-bux for a SIW who is reluctantly stepping off the carousel – albeit a smaller-than-average carousel, looking for reassurance that I will be a suitable, soft-yet-stable landing pad she can convert into a launch pad to thrust her into magical motherhood and facebook fame.
So in NPR interview style, I will answer your question by telling you that you are asking the wrong question. What I want “OUT” of “A” relationship is meaningless. Women have demonstrated no desire to contemplate what I want, let alone, setting out to provide such things.
What I have to give, what I desire to create, what I desire to share, build, and invest in an unknown future are the interesting questions. As are what I value in a woman. A relationship? eh.
What you should be asking is why would I desire to do such things when I can do almost all of those things without a relationship. So the question is really, what is a relationship? Or rather how would I design a relationship to serve my end-goal? And what does any version of a Relationship within the current SMP do for me (or any man) in the progression toward my (his) end-goal?
Within the SMP, a *relationship* is apparently whatever she desires it to be in that moment; a form that can change in space and time according to her present and future desires, which are exempt from being mutually exclusive via retroactive value attributions held in perpetual reserve.
Embedded in this *relationship* is the unilateral intrinsic prerogative to recast the terms and conditions at any point for any reason to serve a multitude of known or unknown purposes or indulge in any number of feelings – the permanence of such of course subject to both extrinsic parameters beyond her control and intrinsic whims of intuition all encapsulated in candy shell with half-life equivalent to the number of licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie pop.
Or maybe I’m just busting your balls and I want a thin, low N* woman who is kind, feminine, funny, nurturing, grateful, generous, fit, smart, strong but not rigid, silly but not frivolous, adventurous but not flighty, modest but not mousy, grounded, curious, sane, and so on. And I want her to want me in all kinds of ways, most of which are not suitable to discuss in mixed company. (*yes, I decide what constitutes “low” just as she gets to decide what constitutes “confident”)
I’m quite comfortable fine-tuning within the narrow bandwidth of what very well could be UHF (unicorn hunting frequency) in my search, but I do tire of being expected to eat shit sammys along the way as a result of the SMP defined relationship above. And then smile as if the set of steak knives is just as good as the new car. I don’t wan’t a relationship if it is merely a vehicle to move me through the consolation bracket.
January 20th, 2015 at 4:45 pm
@ razorwire
Beautifully stated. And me too.
January 20th, 2015 at 4:47 pm
“husbands of a higher mate value may avoid employing these [mate retention] behaviors as they may lead to a loss of esteem from their wives.”
http://www.zeigler-hill.com/uploads/7/7/3/2/7732402/holden_et_al._2014.pdf
Holden et al. 2014. Husband’s Esteem Predicts His Mate Retention Tactics. Evolutionary Psychology 12(3): 655-672.
January 20th, 2015 at 4:48 pm
Re: consolation bracket
A clear sign you’re a loser is when your offered a slightly used scratch and dent family in lieu of the real thing.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:03 pm
“and I want a thin, low N* woman who is kind, feminine, funny, nurturing, grateful, generous, fit, smart, strong but not rigid, silly but not frivolous, adventurous but not flighty, modest but not mousy, grounded, curious, sane, and so on”
that’s actually much like I wanted. My wife is thin, low N* woman who is kind, funny, nurturing, grateful, fit, smart, strong but not rigid, silly but not frivolous, adventurous but not flighty, modest but not mousy, grounded, curious, and sane. She is not generous but being thrifty she doesn’t spend much on herself. She is a bit of a tom boy.
We got married to have children, I see no point in getting married otherwise. Now whether one should have children is another question. Another key is knowing the kids are yours.
Once you know what you want it is pretty easy to screen or plate out the 99.9% rest. It would be tempting to LTR a gourmet cook/do anything and get side tracked by bliss.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:05 pm
Interesting to consider this post Rollo. It kind of says that female justifications for their choice of partner follow a rollercoaster path, where new thoughts are constantly excused and the past immediately forgotten. It says that women are frankly incapable of correctly choosing, and wholly appreciating that decision until menopause. It says to me that their burden of choice is actually the more difficult burden when set beside the burden of performance.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:06 pm
Female mate retention strategies are, basically, Appearance Enhancement and Monopolize Mate’s Time. That’s all they’ve got. Males, unfortunately, engage in Resource Display and Submission and Debasement to retain females.
Kaighobadi, F., Shackelford, T.K., & Buss, D.M. (2010). Spousal mate retention in the newlywed year and three years later. Personality and Individual Differences, 48, 414-418.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:12 pm
@ StringsofCoins – Thanks for this and I get it. The more I observe what gets the attention of hot young women, it’s clear that it’s looks. Not necessarily age – a very fit, nicely attired man walks into a room and the young hotties notice – at 30 or 50. And of course, one has to have a confident demeanor and swagger and smirk – i have all those. But without being a certain level of fit, I’m just not even in the game.
This is the other thing I’m working on. While in Vegas a couple of weeks back, on the last day of CES I dressed more casually. Rather than a sports coat, dress shirt and slacks, I wore jeans and a nice black knit shirt under a black sports coat and that’s the day I got that IOI from that super hot model. She noticed me immediately whereas all week I’d been drawing blanks almost universally. I looked “cooler” and probably a bit more like a bad boy. The jeans were tighter and the shirt emphasized my upper body while doing a better job of concealing what’s left of my paunch. Also get this was no work – she gave me multiple IOIs and when I interjected myself into her conversation from 20 ft away, she jumped on the chance to welcome me into it. Of course I did so appropriately – she was asking a question of the moronic Beta sitting in front of her about the Paris terrorist attacks and as a mature,worldly man, I’m current on what’s going on in the world and answered the question for her. I also did not overreact to her IOIs, and I think this made her more curious about me.
This has penetrated my consciousness and I’m now looking at the wardrobe carefully. In part this is due to free content I draft off of from KrauserPUA – just look at how he dresses, it’s all badboy wear, but done subtly. I think at my age I have to be careful to not overdo it, but still, I bought a pair of skinnier black jeans and am developing a new “look”. I was told I was fresh the other day and a waitress flirted with me out of the blue this morning – well i gamed her from the second she came to my table, but i just do this automatically now – I demonstrate high value because I have high value :-)
It’s really not that complicated, it’s just that my mindset seems to just forget reality and revert to form. Constant effort is required, but ground is taken for sure.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:17 pm
A search for “female mate retention” strategies in humans turns up essentially no results. Other than vague attempts at being reasonably nice, which can be redefined as merely ceasing to drive the male away (e.g. fewer shit tests), human females DO NOT engage in any actual strategies to retain male mates. Surprised? If you’re male, you’re probably not surprised.
Brewer, Gayle; Hamilton, Victoria. 2014. Female mate retention, sexual orientation, and gender identity. Evolutionary Behavioral Sciences, Vol 8(1), 12-19. http://dx.doi.org/10.1037/h0097245
Short version: “Retention behaviors were most and least frequently used by homosexual and heterosexual women, respectively.”
The grand takeaway: she’s NOT trying to keep you. She really doesn’t care if she’s the only one for you.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:21 pm
Hence, to bring my little series back on topic, when she turns on you and begins to try to drive you away, then do it: go away: get another woman (to some extent). Not only doesn’t she really care, she is TRYING to drive you away.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:25 pm
When mated to high value males, human females behave like they figure he’s already got other women, so they behave like they don’t really care about mate retention. And when mated to low value males, human females really really don’t care about mate retention, obviously.
It’s all so easy to understand, as soon as you start with sexual conflict.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:27 pm
Redlight,
Your wife sounds like the proverbial catch. I don’t mind a bit of tomboy myself. I grew up in the woods so its familiar territory – to a point.
Your point is taken. Knowing what I want is the starting point. Holding true to that as well. I agree that marriage is pointless if having children is not the primary goal of that relationship.
I’m on the fence regarding children. Not just due to the risk and legal aspects of marriage 2.0, but the reality of my age and of finding a suitable partner to take on such a responsibility.
I honestly find it difficult to imagine most women I meet as mothers these days. Perhaps due to the absence of true femininity, or perhaps due to their collective self-absorption, I don’t know.
The SMP-defined relationships are all approximations of marriage that serve her needs in that moment while allowing for greatest optionality to pursue her dualistic strategy. Thus the inverse comes into play: a “relationship” that isn’t from the onset formed as a specific pursuit of marriage between those two people becomes a non-entity. So I’m back to, what then?
I’ve learned the hard way that being focused as a “marriage-minded” serious man looking to “settle down” does not communicate high-value and thus leaves her hypergamous door ajar, and is nothing more than an e-ticket ride to beta-bux town.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:28 pm
@StringsofCoins, re: “I’m not even sure how to have an LTR anymore.”
HOW is easy: the male engages in Resource Display and Submission and Debasement. “Let me hold your purse for you honey. In fact, I’ll fill it with money while I hold it.” The real question is WHY.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:29 pm
@Strings.
Great stuff. All of it.
I wouldn’t say I spin easily, as the residual from deep blue-pill conditioning reigns me in too often, but I will admit that with RP and age, I’ve managed to reduce my pursuit costs to nil.
And I am lucky enough that I can generate options fairly quickly with modest effort. Don’t get me wrong. Nothing comes easy for me, but I’m lucky in the sense that my 6-12 hours of physical training each week alongside my reading, research, and cultivation of hobbies pays off perhaps easier than it does for other gents.
My abs and biceps are yielding more bites at the apple than my wit, humor, smarts, style, or genuine “niceness” ever could or would.
Curls for the girls is pretty much spot on. Results. Women are uninterested in the process; they love to bust on gym rats or other meathead pursuits, but they universally love my cut-up meatsack.
Meanwhile, women are out there building expertise as fast as they can, unfortunately it is the kind of expertise that relegates them to the bang-only ladder. The difference seems to be only in how quickly they manage to do that.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:37 pm
@ Glenn:
“I’m set up to make this the best year of my life in a very long time and that’s due to all my hard work and focus and keeping my eye on the prize it’s what it’s all about.”
What is the prize that you’re working so hard for?
January 20th, 2015 at 5:41 pm
@StringsofCoins & All, I’ve hit on this before:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/08/29/as-good-as-it-gets/
January 20th, 2015 at 5:54 pm
@jf,
Yes I could turn into a new BB for some CC rider so she can have everything I have worked for. I would like to have two additional children as I always wanted three, and was planning a second with my ex-wife when I discovered her infidelity. One thing I have always had trouble understanding is that for the five years we lived together (two years dating before that) she did not appear to be cheating on me and as far as I know did not. But after we got married she started hitting up an old boyfriend on facebook within the month and started up an affair with him within a year. That was one of the three I was able to confirm during our 3.5 year marriage. I do wonder if I should have refused to marry her when she asked me. I still have not been able to reach any hard conclusion as to if there is anything I could have done to prevent my cuckolding. Without having some kind of knowledge that I can prevent such a thing from happening in the future the only solution I can see is to refuse to give a woman that kind of commitment.
I believe had I not been divorce raped hard and kept my old net worth and house I would have been a much more attractive BB option and would not have, by necessity, forced myself to learn game. So in a sense I should thank my ex-wife for the divorce rape. It taught me quite a bit.
@Glen, Razorwire,
I did not realize that it was my body that was attracting the younger women so much until one of them, a 22 year old, started going on about how great my body was. She did show me pictures of two of her past boyfriends and they were both high body fat and in terrible shape. Though she did talk about other AF men she has been with who also had bodies she enjoyed.
As far as clothing goes I typically do button up shirts with the sleeves rolled, jeans, and a variety of boots so I appear taller then I am. Either that or just fitting t-shirts. I stay away from a lot of the clothing I see older guys wearing. I aim for something in between the dress shirt and slacks guys and the Affliction/UFC printed shirt nonsense guys. Dress shirt and slacks taken down one notch. In the winter I have a high end leather jacket I will wear if I’m going out to run game. Also a variety of props I’ll use to peacock. A brown leather string bracelet with a yin/yang bangle has had good results.
Perhaps my expectations are just misaligned. In my blue pill days an attractive woman just giving me sexual access was all I needed to “fall in love”. Now? I no longer believe that love is a thing. It is a mental disorder. I’m looking much closer at what actions women take that demonstrate their deeper character. And coming away frustrated as no woman seems to even realize that she should attempt to culture a good character. They just want me to act as I did before taking the pill. Sexual access should conquer me. It no longer does. Especially now that I know how to spin more plates. Maybe in five years as I’m hitting 40 I will have to settle for a woman that is available if I’m going to get one or two more children.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:57 pm
re: mate retention
Ok, so tell me if I’ve got it now. Females’ vestigial version of mate retention is only this: female behavior intended to induce male mate retention.
The only thing she really cares about is you not abandoning her; she doesn’t care about other women per se. And the way she gauges whether you are going to abandon her (or not) is by your mate retention: i.e. whether you try to keep her away from other males.
January 20th, 2015 at 5:59 pm
What’s killing me about the personal stories I’m reading here (and thanks BTW) with all of these qualifications and (for the most part) mature men who’ve had the blinders of feminine sexual strategy removed is how oblivious women are to the long term concerns of men.
No 25 year old woman is asking these questions about herself. Whether or not a 35 y.o. guy is contemplating how he can be a better husband isn’t even an afterthought to a 30 y.o. woman.
It’s only when they get to 36 – 40 does it even occur to a woman to ask a man, what it is he wants from a relationship, because her waning SMV is entirely unignorable at that point.
Read this post again:
http://therationalmale.com/2014/10/13/validation-hunting-the-jenny-bahn-epiphany/
All of a woman’s self-righteous, now-novel introspection about how she should fit into a man’s mid-life plans that she thinks she ought to be praised for at 40 didn’t even fire a brain synapse for her at 28.
Always remember, being Red Pill in your 40’s makes you an Alpha agent of righteous karma:
http://therationalmale.com/2014/09/15/alpha-agents-of-righteous-karma/
January 20th, 2015 at 5:59 pm
re: “Also a variety of props I’ll use to peacock.”
I suggest dangling something ornamental from your belt, in the front. I’m perfectly serious. The idea is to give women an excuse to gaze at your crotch area. You can thank me later, like tomorrow, after you try it.
January 20th, 2015 at 6:01 pm
@Rollo,
Thanks for the refresher. Perhaps I do need to just accept that this is as good as it gets. As Glen says in my older age I can move in with a few of my male friends. I have four left from our childhood group of ten. Most guys either got wifed up and their wives tore them from the group by threat of withholding sex or at some point they showed very poor character and were ostracized.
Three of those four have vowed to never get married. I should have listened to them but ONEitis is a hell of a drug. The only one who was pro-marriage just got married four months ago to a former CC rider, tattooed, breast implants, and none of us guys think this is going to end well. We are prepared to support him through his future divorce.
It is nice to hold out hope for the mythical unicorn.
January 20th, 2015 at 6:07 pm
Stringsofcoins – “It is nice to hold out hope for the mythical unicorn.”
Hope is just more way to be disappointed.
January 20th, 2015 at 6:09 pm
Potential crotch bangles for StringsofCoins:
1. Plugged nickel. A backstory would further enhance this, and may be the best overall.
2. A mini disco ball. I saw one a while back at a store, intended for a woman’s charm bracelet. It would be absolutely perfect soldered onto the belt buckle or the zipper pull. Yes I’m serious.
3. Other charm things. But manly, not too cute. Tiny dice may be the limit.
January 20th, 2015 at 6:10 pm
And alpha agents of righteous karma… Looking at where I am at now I do not think any man should even consider offering any woman any commitment until he is a minimum of 30 years old. It also helps explain the shit tests I have received from friends and family (especially women) when they become aware that not only am I having a sexual relationship with women over ten years younger then me but I am doing so without giving them any commitment. One of my sisters harpied to my brother to get him to tell me that she is concerned that I’m “taking advantage of” these women.
No. They know exactly what they are to me. I do not lie to them. And they are adults. They make their own decisions.
Perhaps my actions are inadvertent dread game in my brothers marriage?
January 20th, 2015 at 6:10 pm
Keys. Duh (slaps head).
January 20th, 2015 at 6:14 pm
@ jf12
eon: “A woman nurturing her Alpha man nurtures his strength, not his weaknesses.” [Brody]
jf12: “Wrong word. Admiring his biceps is approximately the opposite of nurturing him.”
Trying to confuse or ridicule my point is a bad idea.
Have you forgotten that I was quoting Brody’s further effort to explain to you, unsuccessfully, that a woman is not designed to nurture her man in the same way, or for the same reason, that she nurtures her infant?
Anyone who is interested in reading jf12’s attempt to present weakness as virtue, and as something that could induce desire in women, should start here:
http://therationalmale.com/2014/11/02/alpha-tells/comment-page-2/#comment-65437
and then work his way backward up the thread. (The initial comment by jf12 was on the first page: therationalmale[]com/2014/11/02/alpha-tells/#comment-65215)
.
@ Sun Wukong
eon: “One possibility is that a woman can be a positive emotional catalyst, which is mentally, and especially physiologically, extremely beneficial to a man.”
Sun Wukong: “Unicorns can fill this role. For the rest of the women available to modern men (read “damn near all of them”), this benefit is a idealistic load of horse shit. It’s simply not available.”
A unicorn would be a woman who could look up to, and follow, a man that she is also having to lead.
Alphas receive positive emotional input from “women available to modern men” all of the time.
The difference is not the women.
.
Badpainter,
“From your explanation it seems the men who can obtain this would be those who have no need for it. For the rest of us it seems a fragile luxury we can ill afford, and can’t rely on maintaining once obtained. In fact I doubt I’d even be able to recognize it at this point without dismissing it as yet another effort to con me.”
You are absolutely correct.
Unfortunately, because of its source (cause), it is available only to those for whom it is not essential, although it is always significantly beneficial.
The way to distinguish it from insincere flattery is to ask yourself if you have enabled the source of the true version, which would first require you to understand the dynamics of masculine and feminine complementarity.
You would then rely on maintaining your complementary role (the cause), and not chasing the effect.
It is not possible for a woman to turn a man into an Alpha, because it is not possible for her to compensate for (or correct) any weakness of will or spirit within him.
A man with the necessary potential can transition into an Alpha, but he must do so alone, without the help of women, or men.
.
ReticentPill,
“I’m reminded of my boss bragging about his new car to an unpaid intern, though he didn’t intend it that way. Though what eon said actually makes a lot of sense to me, it’s not everyman’s script.”
I didn’t intend, nor do I see, what I wrote to be something like “bragging about his new car to an unpaid intern”, because I expect others to be capable of this, because I am not telling men something like “become taller”.
PUAs have developed a lot of techniques to enable them to change their mindsets. This is the same thing, just down a different path.
January 20th, 2015 at 6:16 pm
re: “Perhaps my actions are inadvertent dread game in my brothers marriage?”
I do think it probable that women would try to get their men to avoid seeing the possibilities for dread. That being said, my own brother’s dread game didn’t help my marriage.
Relatedly, one of the very few hits for “female mate retention” mentions coalitional tactics.
January 20th, 2015 at 6:21 pm
re: “It is not possible for a woman to turn a man into an Alpha”
It is always possible for any woman to treat any man as an Alpha. Period.
January 20th, 2015 at 6:29 pm
Women nurture an alpha the exact same way women *nurture* anything they nurture. Women’s bag of tricks is extremely limited.
January 20th, 2015 at 6:32 pm
Women don’t worry themselves with concerns of ‘taking advantage’ of men. It’s simply not a thought that enters their minds.
There is no Rational Female blog where women come together to discuss how gender relations really are. There is no thought given to critically considering the inner workings of men on the part of women.
Any self-identifying “Red Pill woman” who ever came close to some curiosity about the male experience still had to have a Red Pill man make her aware of it.
To say women don’t care about men’s imperatives would imply they even have an awareness of it. The truth is, it’s never a thought that even enters their minds.
Only later in her life when a woman’s emotional, financial, familial wellbeing makes her necessitous of a man does that awareness of his personal experience ever register in her mind. And even then, his experience only exists as an obstacle to facilitate her reality.
January 20th, 2015 at 6:34 pm
That’s what it says on the brochure for the Moonlight Bunny Ranch here in Nevada.
January 20th, 2015 at 6:36 pm
@jf,
I love this idea. Great way to turn flirting sexual without being overt. I will give this a try!
January 20th, 2015 at 6:36 pm
@Badpainter, re: “Hope is just more way to be disappointed.”
I’ve heard something like “There’s a thousand ways to be wrong, but only one way to be right.”
January 20th, 2015 at 6:39 pm
Probably overheard at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch: “Let me nurture that for you, big boy.”
January 20th, 2015 at 6:42 pm
eon – “A man with the necessary potential can transition into an Alpha, but he must do so alone, without the help of women, or men.”
Then how is this emotional support a benefit of greater worth than a mint on a pillow? If I do all the work myself, which means by necessity ignoring the doubters and critics, then why is this valuable if it is not actually helpful to the process? I obviously don’t need it to make the journey, why do I want it at the end?
It seems like opportunistic love which is of no actual utility, and serves me no additional purpose. Nor does it serve my greater purpose due to it’s lack of durability, and my lack of direct control. It’s a white elephant I’d rather not have.
I guess it’s like the weather, I like nice sunny day but I am powerless to make it so. Enjoy it while it lasts and expect it to end, live as if it doesn’t matter.
January 20th, 2015 at 6:42 pm
Here’s a study for you jf12:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/01/19/women-have-casual-sex-for-fun-ottawa-study-finds-the-mushy-emotional-stuff-comes-later/
January 20th, 2015 at 6:59 pm
No 25 year old woman is asking these questions about herself. Whether or not a 35 y.o. guy is contemplating how he can be a better husband isn’t even an afterthought to a 30 y.o. woman.
It’s only when they get to 36 – 40 does it even occur to a woman to ask a man, what it is he wants from a relationship, because her waning SMV is entirely unignorable at that point.
I remember when my wife became pregnant with our first kid at age 29 she became much more sensitive to me. It was a noticeable and sharp improvement.
Thoughtfulness of my wife towards me at her various ages – 1 to 10.
Age 20 = 2
Age 25 = 3
Age 30 = 7
Age 35 = 8
Age 40 = 9
Admittedly a lot happened around age 30. I stopped being a loser for one thing.