One of the first observations formal PUAs had when they were testing and refining their methods was that of the now ubiquitous shit tests women would present them with. It’s important to put this testing dynamic into context because, as most any guy who’s ever made an approach will tell you (not just PUAs) there comes a stage in that approach when a girl will set up a challenge for a guy. However, as any married man will tell you, that’s not where the shit tests end.
Over the holidays I was hanging out with my brother and watching my niece and nephew interact. My nephew is 16 and his sister is a very mature 12, but to see them interact, it’s one shit test after another. There’s the fluid teasing and taunting that comes from siblings that genuinely like each other (well, mostly), but as I watch these two interact I thought back to how my brother and I used to give each other shit, smack each other around and basically roughhouse like boys used to be able to do before a feminine-primary society decided they needed to be medically sedated for their ‘condition’.
I’ve explored this in Amused Mastery, but there’s a natural flow that’s learned between an older brother and a younger sister (or sometimes a capricious younger brother to an older sister) that translates to an intersexual relating with men and women later in adulthood. My brother is very conventionally masculine, a somewhat natural Alpha in his mindset, and his positive masculine frame carries over into his role as a father. This sets the environment in which his son and daughter are learning intertersexual interactions with one another. Both are very headstrong, but also respectful in a way that only a positively male dominant father can inspire.
I bring this up because I feel this learning illustrates both the problem most men later have with shit tests as well as the key to capitalizing on them.
No Passing
You’ll notice I didn’t say ‘pass’ the shit test. I think it’s a misnomer to view shit tests as a pass or fail proposition. Most men like that easy binary win-lose proposition, but the problem I have with that is that ‘passing’ a shit test implies finality. You will always be shit tested by a woman, so you never really pass that test, however you can and should turn those tests to your advantage.
Many a well meaning Red Pill woman (and a few Purple Pill ‘life coaches’) who don’t like offending the delicate sensibilities of today’s virtuous women like to call these tests ‘fitness’ tests. The renaming sprays a bit of perfume on an otherwise unflattering aspect of women’s Hypergamous psyches, but under that scent is the same truth,…
Women’s shit testing is a psychologically evolved, hard-wired survival mechanism. Women will shit test men as autonomously and subconsciously as a men will stare at a woman’s big boobs. They cannot help it, and often enough, just like men staring at a nice rack or a great ass, even when they’re made aware of doing it they’ll still do it. Men want to verify sexual availability to the same degree women want to verify a masculine dominance / confidence.
I think the early PUAs were correct in calling these test ‘shit tests’ because the nature of those tests they met in their field approaches were very much like the ‘shit’ they’d given and been given by their male peers throughout much of their lives. Part of the male experience is giving your friends ‘shit’, ribbing them, messing with them and otherwise talking ‘shit’ with them. If you’re in a fantasy football league you probably get that “smack talking” has been raised to an art form.
In this context it’s not so much a fitness test as it is a form of male-specific camaraderie – if it’s a test of anything it’s a test for the social intelligence that a guy gets that his friend is giving him ‘shit’ and can laugh about it and give as good as he got. This is part of men’s preferred overt form of communication which baffles women unfamiliar with it; if I’m playfully insulting you, if I’m messing with you, it means I consider you a friend and I expect that you’ll ‘just get it’ that you know this when I do.
Sadly this is often the first offense women take when they insert themselves into Male Spaces. They take the ‘shit talk’ personally, or at the very least have to make an effort (they believe they shouldn’t have to) to communicate in the open, often vulgar, but no less meaningful ways men do. Unless they were raised in the increasingly rare household of a strong masculine influence (fathers or brothers) it’s likely these women won’t “just get it” and bend their efforts to change that communication to something she’s more comfortable with, and something her feminine-primary expectations convince her is correct.
Getting the Test
Even if you had the benefit of having your bratty sister punch you in the arm after teasing her you may not realize this is a form of shit testing you. One of the most important aspects of dealing with a shit test is understanding the basic fundament of Just Getting It:
She want’s you to ‘get it’ on your own, without having to be told how. That initiative and the experience needed to have had developed it makes you a Man worth competing for. Women despise a man who needs to be told to be dominant. Overtly relating this to a guy entirely defeats his credibility as a genuinely dominant male. The guy she wants to fuck is dominant because that’s ‘the way he is’ instead of who she had to tell him to be.
Observing the process will change it. This is the root function of every shit test ever devised by a woman. If masculinity has to be explained to a man, he’s not the man for her.
A woman wants to know a guy Just Gets It, but she still needs a method to determine that he does – ergo she shit tests. For women, this method must be in as covert a form as possible to protect the integrity of not exposing her own sexual strategy to herself.
When openly analyzed this seems like madness to men’s striving for a rational solution to a problem, but her method comes from a subconscious want of not having to convince her hindbrain that he does in fact get it – and gets it so well that he neither acknowledges it overtly nor asks for her assistance in figuring her shit test out.
Observing and / or explicating a process will change that process, and a woman’s Hypergamous hindbrain knows this.
Essentially a shit test is used by women to determine one, or a combination of these factors:
a.) Confidence – first and foremost
b.) Options – is this guy really into me because I’m ‘special’ or am I his only option?
c.) Security – is this guy capable of providing me with long term security?
I would also add that these requisites imply a testing for masculine dominance as well as his sexual market value. Women want a man that other women want to fuck, and other men want to be. The conflict inherent in women’s shit testing is that she must simultaneously determine a man has other sexual options than her while also attempting to limit those option and making herself his primary focus.
There’s always been some debate as to whether women are unaware of their subconscious shit testing or if those tests come from a fully aware and deliberate intent. I understand the rational want of men to hold women’s feet to the fire and accept a personal responsibility for their action – shit tests naturally seem like a huge waste of time, not to mention duplicitous and false to men who value straight-talk solutions – but I’m going to argue that these tests are both intentional and subconscious depending on the context in which she delivers a shit test.
However, whether intended or not, it’s more important for guys to get that a woman’s testing is rooted in her inherent Hypergamous uncertainty. And that uncertainty extends to both the Alpha Fucks and Beta Bucks aspects of her Hypergamy. Women’s doubt of a man’s Hypergamous suitability is a constant, though subconscious effect for her.
Active Testing
When a woman actively, consciously, shit tests you, understand that it is always intentional. This type of shit test is the most common one PUAs encounter in the clubs or whatever their preferred venue may be. With the exception of maybe Day Game, women in these arenas are expecting men to sarge them, and therefore the propensity to deliver a prepared shit test is a conscious decision on her part. For the most part these tests amount to a fun game for her that serve the purpose of determining a guy’s SMV and his Hypergamy optimization potential.
An active test is entertainment to her in the same way it is for a bratty sister and her older brother. There’s usually a lot of witty (hopefully on your part) push-pull to this shit test exchange, but the latent purpose is her subconscious probing you for the possibility that you might ‘get it’ – that you might be able to play the game rather than having to explain it to her or having it explained to you.
As I’ve stated before, a woman who is into you wont confuse you, but a lot of men (particularly overly conditioned Betas) come to believe that any impropriety on his part might be taken as an offensive so they never boldly push back on these test as they should. They fall back on the “Yes M’Lady” white knight script they believe will set them apart from “other guys”, but the guys who ‘get it’ aren’t confused by shit tests. A big brother hits his bratty sister back when they’re play fighting; not so much as to harm her, but just enough to show her who’s stronger, who’s in control of his situation and isn’t afraid to push her back.
If a woman is not testing you in an environment where she could reasonably be expected to actively be doing so, she doesn’t have the interest in you to do so. A lot of men mistake a woman’s “Bitch Shield” as a cue of disinterest or disgust, when in fact these are often calculated shit tests. There are many ways to push past a Bitch Shield for a guy with the brass (and interest) to do so, but it’s a woman’s indifference, not her poised contempt, that cues disinterest.
Active tests are what single men are most likely to encounter in women, and it’s important for these men to understand that this type of test isn’t something you pass, but rather something you capitalize on. For a guy with even a basic grasp of Game these test should be considered nothing but softballs for him to hit out of the park.
Things to remember are Amused Mastery, Command Presence, Agree & Amplify and a basic Cocky & Funny ambience while employing them. I should also add that women deliberately putting themselves into social environments (like a club) who are delivering active shit test are likely at the ovulation point of their Estrus phase – adjust your Game (and birth control methods) accordingly.
If you recognize that you’re being actively shit tested always remember, play with her, and play with her. Shit tests of this nature are opportunities to build attraction as well as arousal, and women want you to get that they are opportunities.
Passive Testing
While active testing is done in awareness with intent by a woman (with only a passing element of her subconsciously doing so), a passive shit test is a reflexive, subconscious test rooted in a woman’s Hypergamous insecurities. In an active test, the latent purpose is one of playfully determining Hypergamous optimization of a new prospective mate. A passive test is rooted in the Hypergamous doubt that a woman’s choice to settle with that man was in fact the best optimization her SMV could afford her.
Passive testing always asks the question that her nagging, hindbrain Hypergamy can’t give a voice to, “Did I make the right choice? Is this guy really the Alpha I thought he was or could be?’
Passive testing is constantly exacerbated or defined by her previous sexual experiences (or lack thereof) or the fantasies of what could be if her circumstances were to change. For women, this is the mental space where the Alpha Widow dynamic is harbored. This is a where the subconscious testing of the man whom she consolidated monogamy with meets her unconscious comparing of him with her past, idealized experiences – or the experiences she believes could be possible if she could determine his suitability for her.
For the most part these tests are ones of measuring his performance and provisioning capacity against his Alpha tingles generating capacity. Passive tests are insidious in that they need a satisfaction of so many Hypergamous elements: Alpha Fucks, Beta Bucks, the outperforming of past or fantasized sexual competitors, pushback masculine dominance, status, and many other prerequisites of long term Hypergamous optimization.
As you’ll probably guess the passive test is usually reserved for marriages and LTRs (live in arrangements being common). Any woman not familiar enough with you wont give you a passive test, however you might get one from your mother or a close female relative who needs some reassurance from you (or wants to put you in your place as a Beta). Passive tests seem to be the most hurtful, but it’s important to predict when they’ll come, what’s triggered them and the root insecurity behind them that women either aren’t consciously aware of or can’t openly reveal because, once again, it ruins the game and her determining if you ‘just get it’ without being told.
As with active tests demonstration, not explication, is the key to resolving and capitalizing on them. These are the types of tests that aggravate most men because they generally feel they’re locked into solving them. Thus, they make grandly overt affairs of bringing a woman’s ‘bull shit’ to light in an effort to quell her insecurities, but also to feel like they’re reasonably holding her personally accountable for her “stupid shit testing”.
And as with most similar efforts, appealing to a woman’s reason never ‘solves’ her problem. Hypergamy doesn’t reason, Hypergamy only feels. Demonstrating you get what she’s doing will help you capitalize on her insecurities far more than explicating that you know what she’s doing by shit testing you.
You’ll probably have guessed that passive tests are most commonly generated while a woman is in the luteal phase of her menstrual cycle, but it when that insecurity relates to her partner’s Alpha suitability there is some crossover into her proliferative phase. It’s important for married men to determine the nature of his wife’s insecurity with regard to her tests and when they’re most commonly delivered.
If she’s testing you at or around her ovulatory window, if she’s regularly insisting on a Girls Night Out around this time (yes, it’s a shit test), if she’s not sexually interested in you during her estrus, it’s likely she’s uncertain about your Alpha Fucks suitability to her. If her tests come during her luteal phase, if she’s nagging or provoking you about money, emotional availability or even how she wants to live closer to her parents, it’s likely her insecurity is based on her perception of your status, provisioning capacity or your Beta Bucks potential to make more of it.
While these types of shit tests based on Hypergamous insecurity may seem like a lost cause, understand that many of the same techniques used to capitalize on active tests still apply. Not all passive tests are delivered in the negative, and applications like Command Presence and Agree & Amplify demonstrate to a woman that you get it, that you see her tests for what they are, and you’re prepared for them without revealing the game you both know you’re playing.
Even well timed Amused Mastery (after you’ve established mastery of her) is enough to defuse a shit test with potentially negative implications. Once the precedence of your mastery is set it’s an easy fallback she’ll expect from you.
Granted, there are more direct ways of demonstrating your optimization to her – staying in better shape than she’s in is an obvious one, casually emphasizing passive dread (a.k.a. married social proof) is another – but the important part is recognizing what aspect of her Hypergamy is generating that insecurity.
In closing here I feel it’s incumbent upon me to address the most obvious response most guys will have to all of this: “Fuck that, I’m not dealing with her shit, just don’t get married, just don’t put up with it, just go your own way, call her on her bullshit” to which I’ll say, “yeah, you’re right, it makes more sense just to disconnect entirely”.
It would be great if women could be relied upon to be rational, reasonable agents as most would like men to believe they are. I mean, they should be, right? You should just simply be able to say to a girl or your wife “Hey I know all the games your playing and why you’re playing them, so lets just drop all of the pretentiousness and get down to fucking and living, OK?” But all this amounts to is negotiating for her genuine desire. Real desire on a woman’s part never comes from rational, reasonable explanations of why she should desire you, it comes from your demonstrations and your example.
Even the men who rule their women with an iron fist will still deal with women’s tests directly or indirectly without even realizing they’re doing so.
January 14th, 2015 at 8:26 am
@Badpainter, re: “Game after commitment is a sort renegotiation of terms”
Oh, yeah! Maybe, just maybe, for some men it’s best built up to, like so many advise, as part of some overall self-improvement regimen. “Oh, by the way honey, in addition to more oatmeal in the mornings one of my resolutions involves me clawing back more of my testicles. Just thought I’d give you a heads up.”
January 14th, 2015 at 8:31 am
Despite ex post facto married Game advice, or rather stories about changing in-the-toilet marriage dynamics through Game, I cannot believe it has ever succeeded smoothly. Almost all post-honeymoon marriages suck because the women wanted it to suck. The whole point of changing that dynamic is to remove the women from power, totally.
January 14th, 2015 at 8:41 am
re: danger
Possibly, and I say probably, the level-testing that women’s shit-testing to men is all about is danger testing. In other words she isn’t seeing where she fits on some hierarchy with you, but what you’re capable of with her. Will you hit her? Will you do other things to her?
January 14th, 2015 at 8:44 am
jf – “Almost all post-honeymoon marriages suck because the women wanted it to suck.”
Why is that?
Most of my friends live that way. It seems as if marriage is too often transformational process from pleasant girlfriend to a consistently unhappy nagging thing. The cynic in me says the pleasant girlfriend was a ruse, an act, a false front that never actually existed.
January 14th, 2015 at 8:46 am
Another epic post. Rollo. As I’ve been digesting the Red Pill lately, I’ve come to realize how insecurity plagues my life. It’s worse for me than some, given my abusive, negligent and denigrating upbringing, but still I see the same thing in most men that I know. In fact, as I was reading this article and the comments it occurred to me that this entire site is given by male insecurity (to some degree, i’m not doing science, it’s just a POV that enlightens).
And then it hit me. The entire male experience generates insecurity. It’s beat/disciplined into us from the word go in our lives. Always wondering if we are good enough, or as Rollo has framed it, “the burden of performance”. And it’s relentless. You get the great job? You’ve got to hold on to it. You make big money? Don’t invest it badly. You’ve got that hot woman because you worked out and made your body a chiseled work of art and played her just right? It’s balanced on a knife edge and can go wrong any moment. And so it goes (that’s a Vonnegut line)…
I know women do something similar about their appearance, but it doesn’t seem to me to be as all encompassing as it is for men. Our entire worth is based on what we do in the world and how we shape up in the sexual marketplace. It’s nonstop and always contingent on a better someone coming along – whether on the job or in a marriage or whatever.
It’s funny, I have blown it with women sometimes because I didn’t realize that they were already interested and that I didn’t need to “work” anymore (don’t make this mistake anymore). It’s as though I was so habituated to qualifying and cajoling that I’d forget to tune into what was going on with the woman in front of me. Fyi, a Pro Tip for you young guys out there. The most powerful skill you can develop is detecting indications of interest from women – but so many of us are consumed with our insecurities.
And then the second light bulb went off. The reason it’s epic with us is that we really are disposable to women and society at large. A woman falls apart and has no place to live and no work? Poor girl, someone needs to help her out – and there are many programs to do so. A guy does the same? He’s a loser and a piece of shit to be denigrated, “Get a job you fucking slob”. The world really doesn’t give a shit about men who are on the losing side of any of these games we play.
And we know it. But perversely, insecurity makes us worse at these games of life. So, for me now, I realize that insecurity, fear and self-doubt are cancer for me. When they are present, there is nothing more important for me than to release these negative thoughts and feelings. I realize some of this is stuff you guys know, and it’s stuff that I already knew in some ways too, but I never really felt it so deeply before. I really get that I walk into a world that is uninterested in male suffering and that my choice in life is to be a “winner” or to be cast aside as irrelevant by women and all of society.
I think this is why the manosphere/Red Pill world is such a respite for men. It’s the only place where our POV matters, where we can lick our wounds, share our suffering and not be discarded. This leads me to believe that the way forward for men is for us to pull together more and form more and more men-only groups – in the real world too. I’m not sure how to proceed, and I don’t mean political groups. I’ll digest this some more, but really, men need to start looking after men as a first step. Women aren’t going to do it and since their priorities inform most of society, govt and society aren’t going to change. And really, I don’t want a govt program or some fucking dogooder SJW talking to me about my victimhood. I just want to be treated like I am when I’m with enlightened men.
More to come, I’m pondering. If any of you guys have ideas, let me know.
January 14th, 2015 at 8:51 am
Re: false front
I got it!
The whole per-marriage pleasant girl friend bit is explained by the old phrase about “making an honest woman” of her. Marriage frees her to be the succubus she honestly really wants to be.
January 14th, 2015 at 9:07 am
@Badpainter re: “Why is that?”
No, I don’t think it’s a false front; I think women really do change. My working hypothesis is that hypergamy proceeds through serialization of monogamy by
1) The weedout process of mate selection. Some guy survives her shit-tests and other nonsense. The woman gets convinced, one way or the other, that this guy is the one that will be having sex with her for the foreseeable future. Her brain *then* decides he is the best one. For now. Ahh, love.
2) The spike of oxytocin starts the doomsday clock on the honeymoon period. But while it lasts it’s all good. It’s roughly just enough time for him to get her lots of pickles and ice cream when she needs it, and maybe time enough for round two if they hurry.
3) She hates him. Hates him, hates him, hates him. And she hates herself for hating him, but she hates him more. She tries to get him to eat of the apple of hate too.
January 14th, 2015 at 9:20 am
@Ton, I read you, but think of it more as 1 “oh shit” cancels 10 “atta boys”.
It’s about a consistency you internalize for yourself.
January 14th, 2015 at 9:22 am
Speaking of tests, what is the most unusual “Get me MOAR!” pregnancy craving you personally have enabled? My first wife had a sudden surge of craving for orange stuff the last couple months, specifically artificial orange-flavored stuff (but not Tang), specifically innumerable freezing cold orange slushies and popsicles. “Keep ’em coming.” In the dead of winter. At 4:00 AM.
January 14th, 2015 at 9:33 am
@jf12 – My marriage exactly. And she really did turn on my by the time my daughter was 2, also having two miscarriages. It was as though a switch went off and she simply fucking hated me. In my case, I had too much dignity and many women who were interested in me who seemed quite fine, so I put my foot down and my ex then just began an affair with a Plan B she had in the wings (hotties always have a Plan B guys, especially wives). She married him and destroyed him too, but it wrecked my relationship with my daughter along the way. So much destruction and pain.
I often look back on my marriage now from the RP perspective and have started to blame myself for not being more dominant and not seeing shit tests for what they were etc, but I also wonder if there was anything I could have done? She was hot, there were always good looking guys willing to fuck her – I mean, is it just inevitable for some women?
A psychologist had me go through her family history to show me how my daughter learned how to treat men (she explained “Parental Alienation” to me – funny how my money was never alienated). My ex’s mom left her Dad when my ex was 10 and shacked up with a barfly buddy and they proceeded to be drink and party away a decade plus of life. When that barfly guy decided to sober up, her Mom excised him as well. My ex cut me out when my daughter was 4 and then ground another man to death who finally just left when she was 18.
The psychologist helped me see how I was replaced as a father but was never directly told that. And how my daughter couldn’t help but see me disrespectfully. along with all men, based on what her Mom had modeled for her. My question is how much of this is coming from family systems versus the larger drivers? How much is actual pathology in some women versus just plain old hypergamy and women’s ways?
With my ex, it felt like a game that was unwinnable. Funnily though, the only time we had great sex is when I went out late with friends after work and came home in the middle of the night drunk. I didn’t get that till I understood “dread”, so maybe I just fucked it all up. But I don’t think so. I think my ex would have chewed any man up. No matter what.
January 14th, 2015 at 9:45 am
After a string of failures I started my first successful business. I did all the work with the help of one employee. It didn’t take long until this guy started shit testing me. He called in sick, tried to push me around, complained about work, etc. etc. As a new boss this behavior came as a surprise. I clamped down but it never completely stopped. After a while the company grew large enough that I needed 2 employees. That stopped the shit testing and bad attitude on the spot. Once I had 2 employees he realized that he was very expendable. The fact that there probably was some competition didn’t hurt either.
Since a guy can’t have 2 wives that’s not really an effective way to stop excessive shit testing. But if you are a man with decent status you’ve always got good options. That might be enough to keep many women in line.
My wife doesn’t really shit test me that much. However our kids shit test her 24/7 8-).
January 14th, 2015 at 9:56 am
@Glenn, re: “So much destruction and pain.”
I hear you. My ex never did remarry, but she got old really fast from 30 to 35 so maybe she couldn’t.
re: “My question is how much of this is coming from family systems versus the larger drivers? How much is actual pathology in some women versus just plain old hypergamy and women’s ways?”
I think the big driver (on women’s extremely lousy relationship behavior post-honeymoon) is biological. Secondarily are the social systems, including family dynamics, that are not designed to constrain women’s behaviors, to force them to unwillingly do what they ought to do.
January 14th, 2015 at 10:03 am
@jf12
I think there’s a subtlety that’s being lost. Men do test each other, and they do test each other by giving each other shit. And, I will even agree that a man that is constantly and overtly testing you with shit is a douche who deserves the social isolation he gets.
However, that’s not the end of the story. JF, are you saying that all “shit” tossed around in your friendly male circles ceases after an initial “test” ? I don’t think you mean that. Even in circles of men who have known each other for years, shit talking and giving each other a rash of shit is fairly routine. In fact, the elders that I know socially have it literally down to an artform as described by others here.
I submit that those are, in fact, tests, just as Dr Jeremy was (in so many words) saying. I say this, because even if you “pass” the initial “test” from your male peers, if you continuously give the wrong response to getting a rash of shit from your male peers, they will treat you differently. In fact, this is a method by which men detect the emotional state in other men in a covert fashion.
January 14th, 2015 at 10:13 am
@Jeremy, re: “I submit that those are, in fact, tests”
I’m still not buying it because it doesn’t feel like a test, like a dare, like the way that women do it. And I don’t think it’s because of competitiveness or lack of it “I’m more uncompetitive than you!” I could call in sfcton for some support, maybe, but instead I’ll appeal to the chicks.
I mean chickens. Hens ruthlessly keep pecking each other and lesser males. Henpecking is a totally different beast than rooster pecking.
January 14th, 2015 at 10:25 am
Apparently constant pecking is a result of
1) An abundance mentality, with a lack of consequences for low-level pecking
2) A fluid social structure with levels constantly apt to change
January 14th, 2015 at 10:30 am
@jf12 – So, by implication, you are claiming that the marriages that survive either have an uber alpha who is dominating his wife and suppressing her hypergamy by keeping her on defense or a Beta pussy who just keeps taking it?
Isn’t that a little bleak? I try to be very careful to not treat what we do here as “science” but rather look at it as heuristics given the state of the science we are relying on (the best and brightest in the field claim much of what we know is still sketchy, for example the science Rollo cited recently on estrus is actually shows pretty subtle effects – just go to the link he shared to that Haselton woman and see what studies she links to http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton/research/).
Are there any guys on this thread who’s wives didn’t turn on them after they had kids? What was that like? How did you deal with it if this did happen to you? Now don’t get me wrong – what you, JF12, described happened to me. It was like living in a bad dream for me. After a childhood that was filled with terror and abuse and a lack of love, I could not believe that my marriage had turned into a different sort of nightmare, coming home after a 14 hour day to a woman who clearly hated me at 29 years old. And seeing my fatherhood undermined even before the divorce – it was nothing short of heartbreaking for me. And it was inexplicable.
But I’m left with uncertainty. Are women really all like that? If so, why on earth does any man put up with it? I couldn’t and told my ex, “Get in or get out”. She chose out, but still, I was free of it. Is it just that some men calculate the payoffs differently? Being single long term is no picnic either, trust me so maybe that’s a good decision for them.
Sigh…Not feeling very hopeful today. I find sometimes the RP stuff just overwhelms me and makes me hopeless. I’ll admit it, sometimes the “burden of performance” just makes me want to shrug and lay down. It seems so harsh and cold. Maybe I’m just going through something, I don’t know.
January 14th, 2015 at 10:35 am
@jf12
I don’t think anyone here has said that it is done “like women do it.” I’ll be the first to agree that female shit-testing is many times more harsh, emotionally taxing, and irrational than male friends giving each other shit on any random encounter.
That’s because it’s not a test of fitness for a (perhaps overvalued) vagina. Between men, it’s a test of state.
January 14th, 2015 at 10:42 am
@Glenn, re: the bleakness of “a different sort of nightmare”
I dunno. I feel like I was gaslighted my whole life about How Women Are in long term relationships, so I do think it is even more ubiquitous than casually observed. “Well, yeah, most women seem like they are like that at least somewhat, but Mrs. Jones three houses down doesn’t seem quite as bad.”
January 14th, 2015 at 10:45 am
@Jeremy, re: “Between men, it’s a test of state.”
Yes, “one of the guys”. Or not.
January 14th, 2015 at 10:46 am
@glenn
“Sigh…Not feeling very hopeful today. I find sometimes the RP stuff just overwhelms me and makes me hopeless. I’ll admit it, sometimes the “burden of performance” just makes me want to shrug and lay down. It seems so harsh and cold. Maybe I’m just going through something, I don’t know.”
It doesn’t seem like you have fully swallowed the RP. I treat RP like science because it in fact is. Unfortunately, feeling hopeless, laying down and being overwhelmed by the burden of performance is cancer and very negative to male masculinity. Everyone is playing the game, you either give up and perform bad or excel and perform great.
@rollo
These are the kind of posts I am always on this blog for. While the last one about love was alright, this one I find more practical and can be used directly in the field.
Also, in regards to “Fuck that, I’m not dealing with her shit, just don’t get married, just don’t put up with it, just go your own way, call her on her bullshit”, I find the whole MGTOW scene a beta escape. With knowledge of the RP tenants, gaming can be down with such ease.
January 14th, 2015 at 10:49 am
@jf12
Or…
“Ready to go fishing, or not…”
“Ready to challenge me on the field, or not…”
“Ready to travel, or not…”
“Ready to accomplish something, or not…”
Men test each others fitness for battle, we test each other’s wits because it’s our wits that make us men.
January 14th, 2015 at 11:02 am
@Bromeo
It is a beta escape. However, just as Neo needed time and a session of losing his stomach contents after learning the truth of the world, so too do men who have just unplugged, who have just seen the truth of women and female behavior for what it is, need time away from women.
MGTOW is a healing stage in unplugging, not a healthy end state. The MGTOW men would of course say differently, because they are in pain and they see no end to it. The fact is that men and women must live together for humanity to function. What’s more, the mental anguish that causes a flight to MGTOW ultimately changes to appreciation when men realize the plight of women, and come to terms with base female motivations. Suddenly those old painful rejections that we remember start looking more like the poor decision of immature and narcissistic people who were mostly following their biological programming, rather than intentional harm being injected into men by women.
Sites like Rollo’s help with that understanding. However, it’s not worthwhile to imply that MGTOW men are making a mistake, because most of them are simply still going through the process of healing.
January 14th, 2015 at 11:22 am
@Glenn
My wife did turn on me after kids, but I turned on her too, to the extent that I turned fully Beta blue pill. I remember consciously thinking as I drove home from the hospital with my son and wife that, “OK, time to shape up, no more fucking around”. It was the start of the slide.
She ended up retroactively renegotiating the terms of our marriage along the way and then claiming they never existed in the first place, (Good thing I had taken minutes of that meeting!).
I will concede that she did not intend to turn on me any more than I intended to turn into a slobbering pussy. Frankly it was a script that was all too familiar in pop culture and we both blindly slid into it. Her hamster had to do some extra hard work to rationalize some of the bullshit that was going on in her head, no doubt. but hey, so did mine. “Waaa waaaa was, I’m not getting laid, sure enough wedding cake “cures” sex” was me at the time. Well my hamster failed to look at the fat fuck in the mirror who put on a ton of weight following our marriage. Countless trips to marriage counsellors etc and in all that time nobody could have the gall or honesty to say, “Hey, maybe she doesn’t want to fuck a fat guy.”
I know Rollo has said, demonstrate, don’t explicate. I get that, I agree with it. That having been said, had I never explained the basics of RP to my wife, there always would have been a cognitive block that prevented her from ever fully allowing herself to be feminine. Never mind me, since she came to understand that assuming more traditional sexual roles is healthy in a relationship, she has felt free to “be feminine” where before she always felt the weight of culture telling her to be empowered (Bitchy). so sure its a faux pas on my part to have shown her the manual so to speak, but it also made clear to her that she was following a role she did not have to follow and there were other options. Had I not shown it to her, I have no doubt she would have stubbornly clung to some vestiges of contemporary rad-fem boilerplate about identity etc. Aside from saving our relationship, this is the one thing she thanks me more than anything is helping her achieve this kind of release from contemporary cultural norms that are dysfunctional.
I don’t like what she did after kids in our relationship, but as part of RP, I can forgive her that, for she mostly did not know,
January 14th, 2015 at 11:25 am
@ jf12 – I too feel like I’ve been gaslighted my whole life by women – and not just lovers and wives. It was particularly clear to me after a rapid loss of status (wealth/job/health-looks) at the same time. The women in my life turned on my like pit vipers. My reaction ever since the end of my marriage 22 years ago was to kick women to the curb when they get out of hand. In non-marriage relationships this happened like clockwork in month 4 and I exited or booted them by the end of month 6. 9 in a row like that.
I even gave one a 3 warning rule. The first time, after 3 months, she started calling me a hypocrite about something and just being nasty. I came down on her like a panther with the clap, which shocked her and told her to shut the fuck up. I then asked her if I ever criticized her like that? She answered, ‘No, you don’t.” I then asked if she thought she was perfect and that I would have no complaints about her? This stymied her. I continued by telling her that I viewed our relationship as supportive and that I wanted it to be a respite from the constant competition and abuse I took in my work life. I told her that I thought I was my job to be the same for her, to build her up and support her. She didn’t seem to get this. I told her that this was strike 1 and if she did it two more times, I was gone.
She did the same thing again a week or two later and I smashed it, again. I told her i was not interested in her criticisms of me and that if she felt that way she should leave. She did not leave and actually apologized. The third time we were on the phone a couple of weeks later and she went at it and I told her, “That’s it, we’re done – I gave you three chances. This is it.” She sputtered and screamed and cried – I didn’t give in. To me, if she treated me like this when I wasn’t paying all the bills and locked in with kids, it would only get worse once she had some actual leverage on me. Fyi, she was a hard 8, blonde just hit the wall and fading but still incredibly pretty. This was the same girl who got pedestrian applause while on the back of the Harley Deuce I was riding in a sexy club dress that was blowing all around as we wheeled by in South Beach, Miami one night. Guys literally applauded as I rode by and she loved it. She was fucking gorgeous. Fun moments seem like all there is with women, and LTRs just look like a disaster to me.
Sigh, I “dunno” either…
@Bromeo – You are preaching to the choir. There is nothing but competition for men. But any man who can’t admit that none of us wins all the time, and that constantly being weighed, measured and counted is overwhelming at times is full of shit.
And in fact, the stark realization I made only comes after digesting the Red Pill fully. Perhaps you can’t admit that at times you are overwhelmed and feel like giving up – the only answer there is for you to become more honest with yourself and us.
I play the game full out as there is no choice. But I’m talking about how I feel about it. I’m not a machine, I can’t face constant adversity cheerily every day. Nobody can.
January 14th, 2015 at 11:28 am
The ability to evilly dominate her is what women are looking for.
Carter, G., Campbell, A., and Muncer, S. 2014. The Dark Triad personality: attractiveness to women. Personality and Individual Differences, 56, 57–61.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886913012245
The authors suggest that “sexual conflict” may be a much better explanation of the phenomena than “sexual selection” by women, but they flinch at making the final resolution.
January 14th, 2015 at 11:33 am
@bromeo
Try to not get too down. This is for sure the downside of RP, you cannot un-see it. I too struggle with that burden of performance, it’s a double shit kicking when things are not going swimmingly because you have to fix what is not working in life, like say my business, and you have to live with the knowledge that you are likely a few pegs down in her eyes as well as a result of the problem you are addressing.
This always for me comes back to frame and agency. If I roll over and lay there, well my frame is ruined and my sense of agency is crushed. If I embrace the problem and savagely attack it, even just one single problem of the pool of available issues, I build my sense of agency. This act alone restores my frame, and then everything starts to get back into place. I know if I am ACTING decisively, even if incorrectly, she senses that and cuts me more slack and my stock goes up. I have come to find there is no stasis, you are going up, or you are descending, there is no steady and level.
Additionally when depressed by the RP knowledge, because it can be depressing, I make a point of looking around at someone in my peer group who clearly does not get it. It may be Machiavellian of me, but I look at that guy and his blue pill failing that he is utterly unaware of and thinking how easily I could game his wife, even when I am not feeling so great about myself. I think about the advantages I have now, knowing what I know. I consider how he is like a helpless baby in so many ways in his relationship due to his ignorance. Right in that moment, when I am flirting with his wife, sadly it is at his expense, but I feel better about myself. It’s then that I know I have an advantage in life that I can work with and build upon, it renews my sense of agency and power. His grief is my joy so to speak.
It’s not nice to do, but hey, life is not nice.
January 14th, 2015 at 11:33 am
Do hen-pecked roosters *ever* get dehenpecked by the same group of hens? Ever? Or does he have to go throw his weight around from the get-go at a new roost?
January 14th, 2015 at 11:37 am
A woman says she confuses a wolf dressing as an enhanced wolf as a wolf dressing up as a sheep.
http://www.scienceofrelationships.com/home/2013/1/8/do-people-with-dark-personalities-enhance-their-physical-att.html
January 14th, 2015 at 11:40 am
@Glenn, Jan 14, 8:46 am
The higher men fly the further a fall it is to the ground.
Not saying don’t fly as high as you can, just make sure your parachute is ready.
January 14th, 2015 at 11:47 am
My homework for the day:
1) understanding sexual conflict AS OPPOSED TO sexual selection. This looks like a fine review.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/9780470015902.a0003669.pub2/full
2) understanding why I didn’t know about this. Seriously.
January 14th, 2015 at 11:49 am
@jf12
“Do hen-pecked roosters *ever* get dehenpecked by the same group of hens? Ever? Or does he have to go throw his weight around from the get-go at a new roost?”
So are you asking can a guy reframe his relationship with a pack of hyenas, ever?
I say you can, but you have to follow the classic arc of a Joseph Campbell mythological story to some extent and the man must first triumph, then fail, then go away, then rebuild himself, then come back and he can conquer again a renewed and redeemed hero.
In short I personally believe it requires a re-frame that can only happen when one disrupts the social flow of a group. Clearly a group has this kind of flow and momentum, it is not unmovable but it takes times and energy to steer in a new direction. By stepping out of the flow in time and space, one has the opportunity to come back into it on different terms as in his absence it has taken on different characteristics. Of course, you need to re-enter the flow with a new and improved mindset, frame, whatever.
American Beauty the movie comes to mind. He tosses it all out the window, and despite not getting out in time and space, he re-jigs how his life works on his terms and in that he finds power to shut down the hen pecking. Too bad he dies.
January 14th, 2015 at 11:52 am
yea damn sure sounds like we are same freq but speaking to different aspects of life
January 14th, 2015 at 11:59 am
Quote for the day:
“Female struggle is a by-product of female resistance.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_conflict
January 14th, 2015 at 12:04 pm
@ jf12 – My homework for the day:
1. Pull my head out of my ass.
2. Get back on mission.
I’ll let you figure it all out for me :-)
It is really nice to be able to talk about all this shit though. And keep in mind, I’m 52 so the game is very different for me than you young guys. I many ways, I’m well past my prime and that in and of itself is pretty hard to face. No matter what I do, my SMV is declining rapidly. I am in the gym and doing everything I can to change it, but the truth is that I’m invisible to most young hotties now (I do work the exceptions with modest success, but truthfully it’s mostly failure).
I guess it’s a lot like what lower SMV men have gone through for their whole lives, and really, I was lucky genetically to have a “face”. Today, when I dress just right and seen from my best angle, I still get hits from beauties, but it’s pretty infrequent. But I’m starting to get what it’s like for the bottom 50% of men and wow, being a non-entity in the SMP is really hard for a man to take.
@ Bromeo – I know, that doesn’t mean I don’t keep trying but there is also reality. The RP is about reality for me and according to reality, I’m just about past it. I do feel grateful for all the hot women I’ve fucked in my life (my N is over 100), I was very fortunate and also worked it very hard but still, to become a spectator in it all is just hard. And how I feel much of the time. I spend a lot of time observing and learning and taking what I can from these observations, but still, I’m mostly on the sidelines.
And I don’t do LTRs now. I realized in about 2007 that there was no point any more. I just date and fuck and let women slide in and out of my life. So for me, this is all quite different, shit tests of the serious, unrelenting type get a woman a hasty exit from my life, no matter what. The price? Being alone.
@ agent p – Great stuff, thanks.
January 14th, 2015 at 12:07 pm
This is exactly why I’ll never disavow MGTOW. I understand their motives, and the disconnect they want to make is certainly sensible, I just think they’re mistaken in thinking they can exit the Game – especially when they can play better with their new knowledge of women’s nature.
The FeMRAs would be wise to grasp this, but they’re now married to the agents of the Feminine Imperative in their previously Male Space:
January 14th, 2015 at 12:10 pm
@Glenn,
I have been meaning to ask you, what kind of boats did you race?
I understand if you cannot say too much as it can kind of quickly out one’s identity in the real world.
January 14th, 2015 at 12:13 pm
@Glenn, re: mission.
We all have our gifts and callings. Right now, my first pass through the “sexual conflict” ideas leads me to propose a frustrated antiferromagnetic toy model, an alternating-generation cyclical model. Googleable technical terms for those willing and able. I’m now pondering a sociobiology version of the Néel temperature.
January 14th, 2015 at 12:24 pm
@ agent p – Younger I did one designs, Blue Jays, Lightnings and crewed on a Soling. Older I did PHRF stuff on boats as varied as a Petersen 34, Contessa 38 (we made that pile of shit outperform her rating mostly because the owner just shut up and let us run the boat, lol), a big Tartan, Beneteaus and many other boats that I was transient crew on including J24s and another bigger Jboat. It was great fun, but I was never a big deal in any of it. It’s a very masculine undertaking and competitive as shit. I was a nobody and just injected myself into it as crew and worked my way up, and loved it.
Have you checked out http://www.gunboat.com ? Amazing composite, high speed cruising catamarans. They give me an erection – does that make me a pervert? The 55 is only about 3 million to sail away on, sigh…This is my dream boat and what I hope to retire on. So far, I’m making progress towards the mark but have a long, long way to go.
What do you sail?
January 14th, 2015 at 12:25 pm
Female resistance is the key concept of sexual conflict, I can confidently state after exercising my clicking finger for part of an hour. Hence the two sex’s competing strategies are *entirely*
1) For the females, how to better resist
2) For the males, how to better overcome resistance
There is nothing else involved.
January 14th, 2015 at 12:31 pm
The existence of the FI matrix makes it all too clear the females have been winning, and now female resistance is all but optimized.
January 14th, 2015 at 12:31 pm
Glenn: Re your 2015JAN14 09:33 comment: I also catch myself looking back and wondering what I could have done to see and to ”ace” my Ex’s shit tests. Or to simply be more dominant. Replace your “hot” with my “crazy,” and our experiences are similar. (I swear she has some kind of chemical imbalance like her diagnosed bi-polar father.) And like you, the “unwinnable” feeling was there too. We always played on her emotional and rhetorical field (frame.) My Ex also worked tirelessly to successfully alienate my now-adult daughters from me. My girls occasionally see thru my Ex’s manipulations, but she’s relentless, and I’ve moved on to a peaceful life.
I’ve learned much since the split. Looking back had its use in correcting my errors. Anymore though, there’s no point in focusing on the past. No joy is to be found there. No need to distract from the peace of my present life.
January 14th, 2015 at 12:33 pm
“So, why doesn’t it work (some will say it doesn’t work “as well” but that is putting lipstick on a pig, at best) on old women, stale women, on women you did not Game at first? Good question.”
She has already seen that you are not Alpha, so all of the “fake it till you make it” in the world isn’t going to make a bit of difference, if she is the primary objective.
This is also why only “acting as if” you are Alpha rarely lasts. Eventually you will revert to, or relax into, what you really are, and then she will feel defrauded and try to destroy you, unless your other qualities, looks or whatever, are enough for her to rationalize away your poseur inadequacies.
The value of Game, in the long term, is that it is also a body of knowledge that can enable those with potential to unrepress (or evolve) their nature and rebuild themselves.
And a woman who knew you in the before-time will accept your new self only if she sees that this is (and thus was) your true basis, and that everything, and I mean everything, now derives from it.
.
“It seems as if marriage is too often transformational process from pleasant girlfriend to a consistently unhappy nagging thing. The cynic in me says the pleasant girlfriend was a ruse, an act, a false front that never actually existed.”
It can be a ruse of necessity, when her female nature isn’t enabled and directed in a positive way. A woman cannot follow a man she is also having to lead.
Once she has satisfied the only demands that are being made on her, her internal needs (her biological program), she then starts to react, according to her female nature, to the fact that her man never assumed control, never provided the basis and direction for their relationship (and her life), but was and is only along for the ride (which is her natural role).
January 14th, 2015 at 12:35 pm
There is an archness, as well as a poignancy, to validating the male strategy as *interpreting* female resistance as an invitation to overcome. Maybe this is why “sexual conflict” per se hasn’t been as widely discussed as I think it should have been. Women lurkers please chime in here.
January 14th, 2015 at 12:40 pm
Fat Femme Artist Picks Apart Your Preconceived Notions Of Beauty
Brought to you by Nabisco.
Painful story
Many years ago an acquaintance of mine went “hogging” and picked up a fat chick in a bar. He took her back to his apartment for sex. As he was eating her out he began squeezing and fondling her breasts. After a minute or so she said, “higher please”. He looked up and he had been squeezing the fat rolls of her belly.
January 14th, 2015 at 12:44 pm
Good catch, Rollo, A Voice For FeMen is clearly heading down the same path as the GoodManginaProject. Paul Elam will be stunned when he gets tossed out of his own office, he will “never see it coming”.
jf12 points to the Wiki article on sexual competition, and reading about spiders, snails, lizards, bedbugs, fruit flies, etc. really brought home to me how each sex’s reproductive strategy can truly cause harm to the other.
That in turn revives old thoughts about the FI and feral females. Monogamous marriage benefits the vast majority of men and women, and makes civilization possible. But it also limits the female opportunity for Alpha sperm, and so it gets in the way of the FI. The FI is at war with monogamy, like it or not.
We could line up women from here to China and ask them one at a time if they like the modern iWorld of massive convenience or not, and every one of them would assent. Ask them if they would tie themselves for life to a Beta and a lot of them would say “no way!”. So they want civilization, but don’t want to have to personally pay for it.
Hypergamy doesn’t care about civilization, and if civilization gets in the way of the FI, Hypergamy is willing to kill civilization. Cue Rollo’s great essay on this.
January 14th, 2015 at 12:55 pm
Rusty German apologies. The male Will To Power is then nothing but der Wille zur Bezwingt Frauenwiderstand.
January 14th, 2015 at 12:59 pm
@ jf12 – The sexual conflict stuff is quite interesting and I am diving in too. A quote from the wikipedia entry you linked to.
“Sensory exploitation by males is one mechanism that involves males attempting to overcome female reluctance. It can result in chase-away selection, which then leads to a co-evolutionary arms race. There are also other mechanisms involved in sexual conflict such as traumatic insemination, forced copulation, penis fencing, love darts and others.
Female resistance traditionally includes reducing negative effects to mechanisms implemented by males, but outside the norm may include sexual cannibalism, increased fitness in females on offspring and increased aggression to males.
Animal species that are not in a state of sexual conflict are more likely to be in sync to the male dominance hierarchy as the females are more docile in these organizations such as wolves, common rabbits and crocodiles. Others, such as spiders, ants and orcas are female-dominated. Some regard sexual conflict as a subset of sexual selection (which was traditionally regarded as mutualistic), while others suggest it is a separate evolutionary phenomenon.[7]”
Brain officially bent.
January 14th, 2015 at 1:01 pm
So, then, to which generation should naturally beta female-serving males look to naturally promote male interests? Off the top of my head I think it’s the third generation, but I haven’t bothered coding the sim yet.
January 14th, 2015 at 1:07 pm
Third generation *after* natural betas. To be definite I think maybe it’s daughters’ sons’ sons that may have the best chance.
January 14th, 2015 at 1:12 pm
We can do this the hard way or the easy way.
Weaponized nerds come up with Lybrido and stuff.
January 14th, 2015 at 1:12 pm
@Anonymous, re: war on monogamy, and females’ limited access to sperm:
this is why, in this new era, it is absolutely imperative that we establish legally that all men have the right to:
1) test their children’s DNA against their own,
and
2) a get out of jail free card if it ain’t a match.
The FI, as you say, wants to have their cake and eat it too. It was Patriarchy you are trying to dismantle that said “any child born within a marriage is legally the husband’s”, in order to keep the machine running smoothly.
There are no excuses now, ladies. We have the tecnology. This is a proverbial line in the sand, and if this point is not conceded, I predict a whole shit ton more “unexplainable” murder-suicides.
January 14th, 2015 at 1:20 pm
There is a fairly simple dynamic at play, underlying both this shit testing discussion and the last few articles on love differences…
1) There is a relationship between a person’s perceived value/status and their leadership/dominance within a relationship. If you are perceived as higher value than the other person, they will be subordinate and comply with your requests. If you are perceived as lower value, then they will treat you like a subordinate, not comply with your requests, and expect you to acquiesce to their demands.
2) The relationship between value and leadership goes the other way too. So, if you make requests or demands AND the other person complies with them, they THEN come to see you as higher value/status. If they do not comply, then they come to see you as lower status. This dynamic works for requests/demands that they make too. Essentially, the person (successfully) calling the shots is seen as higher value, the person following is lower.
3) People routinely try to make demands and call the shots to (a) attempt to increase their value/status in the relationship, and (b) sometimes get something they actually want too. Shit tests are nothing more than a type of demand that serves at least purpose (a). This establishes and changes the hierarchy and pecking order.
4) Over time, a chronically subordinate partner sees the dominant partner as extremely high value (due to routinely submitting to them). Their total submission is essentially a “willingness to do anything for” their partner. Thus, they experience an “idealized” feeling of love. The routinely dominant partner, however, gets used to getting their own way. So, their feelings toward the subordinate partner become primarily about what they can get the other person “to do for them”. Thus, any feelings of love they experience are “opportunistic”.
Given those dynamics…
A) These shit tests (and other requests or demands) are a means of determining value and status in a relationship. Successfully making demands that others follow and not submitting to their demands increases value/status. Not making demands, getting denied, and submitting to the demands of a partner decreases value/status. That is why women perceive men who routinely acquiesce (failing her “shit tests”) as low in value and status.
B) The differences in types of loving are actually about perceived value/status differences. Men who feel idealistic love for a woman do so because they perceive themselves as significantly subordinate to her and lower value. Repeated acts of submission (i.e. failing her “shit tests”) reinforce that feeling and status. Women feel this way when they routinely comply with the demands of a man and come to see him as much higher in value and status than herself too. This is the “Alpha widow” phenomenon, as well as the woman who loves the “bad boy”, regardless of his treatment. In contrast, women who are “put on a pedestal” and Alpha’s who routinely get their own way have a more opportunistic feeling toward relationships.
C) Given that, although there are evolved mechanisms at play, biology is not the primary reason why we see such extreme sex/gender differences in love and “shit testing”. Rather, the differences are due to routine social conditioning that devalues men and exalts women (i.e. the feminine imperative) – exacerbating existing evolved differences in value (eggs expensive, sperm cheap). Thus, in modern society, men come to believe that they are extremely lower in value, submit to women’s complete dominance (fail shit tests), and come to experience an idealized love (do anything for her). Women, in contrast, come to believe that they are extremely higher in value, expect men to submit to them routinely (give shit tests), and come to see relationships as opportunities to get their needs met.
That is it… Unfortunately, it is often difficult to see because the reality is unflattering. There is a motivation to protect the ego instead, by overly-complicating things, exalting an idealized notion of love and male sacrifice as noble, or by demonizing women’s demanding behavior as totally innate, inferior, and inevitable. This is especially true for guys who have been put through the ringer and are angry, don’t want to change, or are still very “blue pill”. Nevertheless, it all comes down to guys being taught to devalue themselves, selling themselves short, routinely submitting to women they perceive as being higher value, feeling that they are lucky to have her and willing to do anything kind of love – and getting the short end of the stick because they have no say in their relationships at all. The solution is simply the rest of “game” and the “red pill” – increase your actual mate value, learn to manage other people’s perceptions of that value, and leverage that value to routinely assert yourself and lead in your relationships to get what you want too.
January 14th, 2015 at 1:44 pm
^ That shit is tight, Doc
Sums up much of what’s complained about. Today’s modern women, hopped up on the FI’s reign over popular culture and conditioning, are programmed to be resistant to seeing a man as dominant. They will constantly challenge him until they wear him down and make him their lap dog, their clydesdale.. The only way to fight it is to either sign up for a neverending power struggle (often timed for when you can least deal with it) and a drain on, rather than a reservoir for, your energies, or always be ready to GTFO.
January 14th, 2015 at 1:47 pm
Aand … it’s happening. Woman is glad her ex found a nicer woman so that her sons can grow up expecting a nicer woman too. Women want their sons to expect not-so-much female resistance as the women themselves exhibit.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tina-plantamura/an-open-letter-to-my-exhu_b_6459466.html
January 14th, 2015 at 2:00 pm
Holy hell jf, that woman is an insufferable nightmare of a control freak. No wonder 50 shades and its ilk are so starkly diametric, and doing so surprisingly well.
January 14th, 2015 at 2:02 pm
Dr. J, we disagree on the definition of ‘idealized love’ on the part of men. That idealization isn’t about self-sacrifice, but rather a want for love for without the burden of performance a woman’s hypergamy dictates for a man.
Self-sacrifice is a by product of that, but that idealism and the hope that both sexes share a mutual concept of love based on his performance-free ideal, is rooted in women’s opportunistic concept of love which is very much dictated by the Hypergamy her biology predisposes her to.
In the last thread I posted a slew of links to the studies of Dr. Martie Hasselton which strongly verify the phenomenon of ovulatory shift and the behaviors women’s menstrual cycle predisposes them to. This is the biological, empirical root of women’s Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks sexual strategy which in turn determines her concept of opportunistic love.
Ballista asks, on his site, “why is divornography (divorce pornography) marketed exclusively to women? Why are there articles in women’s magazines and romance novels for women like Eat Pray Love that glamorize divorce, but nothing of the sort exists or is marketed to men? Why is there no male divorce porn, no stories of men divorcing their obese, aging harpy wives, liberating themselves from their marriage vows, and ending up living happily ever after banging large-breasted 21 year-old lingerie models?”
You’ll probably say this is the result of society catering to the empowerment of women, which I agree, but these divornography scripts exist because women commonly commiserate over their shared regret of not having optimized their Hypergamy with a man who’s performance doesn’t measure up to their expectations.
There’s no shortage of articles and studies about women not wanting to ‘settle’ for men that are below their ‘standards’. While I agree about your take on “status” women’s dissatisfaction with settling for “less than” men is rooted in this innate hypergamy. This is certainly exacerbated by a feminine-primary social order grossly overvaluing women’s self-perceptions of their SMV, but the discontent in their ‘choosing’ effect is the result of not being able to optimize a hypergamy that’s standard equipment of women’s mental firmware.
January 14th, 2015 at 2:12 pm
Yes, btw, with the simplest assumptions it is the third generation that profits most.
January 14th, 2015 at 2:16 pm
@ Glenn
Nice stuff, all good racing for sure.
I have to be careful naming what I have sailed as it will out me for sure.
Grew up in Optimists, Have done tons of dinghy sailing. Laser, Laser >>, International 14’s for many years, Flying Dutchman, Tornados and some other exceptionally recognizable boats that I cannot mention. Big boats. 8 Meters, Farr 40’s, PHRF, J24’s all over the great lakes and beyond. IMS, IOR back in the day too, more than a few Chicago Mackinacs. More recently I have done one AC, yes the big one. For me, I am more deeply into it as you can perhaps infer from my resume. Mostly I am a trimmer, but I can drive, foredeck, pretty much whatever on the boat. Usually you find me in front of or behind the helm.
Yes, manly as fuck if there are no chicks on the rail to disrupt the male space. Offshore work sorts the men from the boys just as high performance craft do. It would be fair to say I have very high social proof in that arena.
Gunboats, yes, I have known Peter Johnstone for many many years and we still trade mail occasionally. Indeed if you’re going to cruise, a Gunboat is a fine way to do it. For my part, I could be partial to a Wally however if I had stupid money available.
Respect
January 14th, 2015 at 2:17 pm
I think it’s also important to remember that shit tests aren’t limited to just complying with demands or requests.
Certainly they’re about subconsciously confirming status and SMV, but it’s shortsighted to think that all shit tests are delivered as negative bitching or nagging.
In fact a shit test isn’t always in the negative. If your wife/LTR has a negative estimation of your SMV and a lack of respect for you, and then suddenly, miraculously, becomes cheerful, positive, loving, sexual and appreciative of you after your business wildly succeeds or you receive a great promotion, this is just as much a shit test as anything else.
This is an exaggeration to make a point. Many positive shit tests go subtly unnoticed by men because they become so accustomed to negative ones for so long that they welcome the soothing strokes of a positive shit test without considering what prompted it.
What confirmation is a woman subconsciously making when you’ll gladly accept her positive reinforcement for meeting her expectations after having accommodated her negative shit tests before you did?
January 14th, 2015 at 2:20 pm
Paul Elam banned me personally from AvFM. All I did was dare to mention that his “movement” uses one tactic that is exactly the same as feminism. He wouldn’t dare to engage intellectually and instead just posted some nice cheerleading for his fem-space moderators, trying to goad me out.
Fuckin sad really. Worse, Paul regards himself as masculine, and completely in-the-right in his methods. He doesn’t understand that his methods *are what define him as non-masculine*.
January 14th, 2015 at 2:22 pm
A modest koan.
The cycle becomes a vehicle when it meets resistance.
January 14th, 2015 at 2:23 pm
There are sailors here??
I race PHRF on a friends Olsen 30 twice a week. I used to be a liveaboard on someone else’s cruiser for a while.
January 14th, 2015 at 2:25 pm
Game = finding ways to live with a rabid animal instead of putting it down.
January 14th, 2015 at 2:26 pm
@Rollo, re: “this is just as much a shit test as anything else.”
Even if it smells like vanilla cake(s).
http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/brian-williams-weighs-allison-williams-racy-sex-scene-article-1.2075030
January 14th, 2015 at 2:27 pm
AVfM is firmly mired in the misguided ideology that egalitarian equalism can ideally be achieved between the sexes. Essentially they want to perfect the “equality” that feminists have always used as their cover story, and in the process they sustain a Blue Pill, Beta mindset.
Paul Elam will eventually be evicted from the organization he helped create. At some point the women he’s “enlisted to help the cause” will realize he’s a PR problem and will convert his formerly Male Space into a convenient tool of the Feminine Imperative.
January 14th, 2015 at 2:32 pm
@ Rollo
suddenly, miraculously, becomes cheerful, positive, loving, sexual and appreciative of you after your business wildly succeeds or you receive a great promotion, this is just as much a shit test as anything else.
I always had a good relationship with my wife. However when my successes started to occur… holy cow… that cranked up the sex.
I never thought of that as a type of shit test. Maybe I don’t fully understand the meaning?
January 14th, 2015 at 2:56 pm
@ Rollo,
Yes, the ultimate goals of men and women do differ in mating. Both are jockeying for position in a relationship, using the same dynamics, to increase their value, dominance, and control over the outcome of the interaction. However, the outcome that they ideally want to accomplish with that value and control, their mating goals, are different.
When women dominate and choose, they are hypergamous. When men dominate and choose, they are polygamous. Thus, we see “divorce porn” for women….and “porn porn” for men. It is also why women who did not get to choose lament not being able to maximize the status of the man she ended up with, whereas men who do not get to choose lament not being able to maximize the number of the women he got. Further, that is why the answer to the female AFBB is male “plate spinning”.
Beyond that, we will see more or less of each of these things in a society, depending on which sex is empowered and catered to within it.
In short then, everyone is employing similar principles and trying to get their own way (social dynamics, game)…but men and women differ in what they want when they succeed and get it (evo psych, red pill). To fully understand what is going on in intersexual relationships then, it is necessary to know about both of those pieces and keep them in mind.
January 14th, 2015 at 3:14 pm
The hard way.
Power. Power, which is Dominance, already makes a man much much much more likely to successfully force a woman if he wanted to. In fact, “they” say that such forcing is all about power.
Status. The high social status man is much more likely to get away with successfully forcing a woman if he wanted to, especially if it comes down to his word against hers. Other women, even, will look down on her.
Athleticism. A strong and fit man is much much much much more likely to be able to successfully chase her down and hold her down and impregnate her, if he wanted to. If you had any doubts about what I meant by forcing.
Looks. Just like Status, a handsome man is more likely to get away with successfully forcing a woman if he wanted to, especially if it comes down to his word against hers. Women, especially, will not believe that he wanted to nor that she didn’t want him to.
Money. Also like Status, a rich man is also much much more likely to get away with etc. Because rich. And lawyers.
January 14th, 2015 at 3:18 pm
@ Dr. Jeremy
When women dominate and choose, they are hypergamous. When men dominate and choose, they are polygamous.
Your hypothesis is good but that being the case why do so many people end up in long-term, happy, monogamous relationships? In a sense the reality of relationships runs counter to either parties biological interests. From a strictly biological viewpoint 0% of marriages should work but in reality maybe 25% of marriages are great.
January 14th, 2015 at 3:21 pm
@Rollo, re: “ending up living happily ever”
And all the womynz are thinking “What can he possibly have in common with her? And I’m a “challenge”, and I put up a lot more female resistance. What more could he want???”
January 14th, 2015 at 3:27 pm
The easy way.
You know what it is.
January 14th, 2015 at 3:33 pm
@ Rollo
I wanted to address this too:
This can just as easily be explained by his general sense of low value and unworthiness. Anyone who believes that they cannot “measure up” to a more desirable partner’s standards will fantasize about “being loved, just as they are”. Unattractive women, who do not want to “perform” by maintaining their looks, sexuality, or positive demeanor, feel and express the very same sentiment when they pine away over high status men. In fact, anybody who wants something, but does not believe that they have the ability or value to obtain it, ultimately tries to argue for a performance-free ideal to get it anyway.
This has nothing to do with women’s hypergamy though. It is all about the man’s inferior status in that situation. When the shoe is on the other foot and a high value man is in charge, the feelings are reversed. Sure, he may hold different performance standards because of his mating goals (like her maintaining her physical beauty, having frequent sex, or maintaining the home, rather than her fux and bux requirements). Nevertheless, he will then be the one opportunistically expecting her to tow the mark and perform…while she dreams of a place where he would love her anyway, even if she did not.
Thus, a valuable man “in charge” does not love a woman unconditionally, he has desires and standards that she must meet. Only low value men do not have standards for women. How could they when they are too busy trying to meet her standards? Only the boss holds standards and goals of performance. The worker endeavors to live up to them, perform, and dreams of a utopia where they get paid anyway.
In fact, the very act of expressing that performance-free ideal is simply another influence strategy employed by the low status partner to get what they want. It is a shit test. All the better if that person can convince themselves that that self-benefiting ideal and standard is noble, right, and true (more influence tactics). Baby, just love me for me…(and give me what I want anyway). If the other person acquiesces to the tactic, then the balance of status and value shifts. Just another ploy, now felt and used mostly by men, because they are socially devalued.
January 14th, 2015 at 3:44 pm
@ zdr01dz
Monogamy is a compromise and equilibrium between the biological interests of men and women. It does not maximally allow for either the man or woman to pursue their total interest. However, in reality, continuing to struggle and conflict may result in them ending up with much less. So, they arrange a compromise that facilitates “some” of what each wants in monogamy, rather than continuing to compete. When the man works to maintain his status and resources (satisfying the woman’s interests) and the woman works to maintain her appearance and is sexually receptive (satisfying the man’s interests) in that trade, then it generally works out. When either of those slip and the partner thinks they can do better elsewhere, the compromise, trade, and monogamy ends.
January 14th, 2015 at 3:56 pm
@Jeremy
“MGTOW is a healing stage in unplugging, not a healthy end state. The MGTOW men would of course say differently, because they are in pain and they see no end to it. The fact is that men and women must live together for humanity to function. What’s more, the mental anguish that causes a flight to MGTOW ultimately changes to appreciation when men realize the plight of women, and come to terms with base female motivations. Suddenly those old painful rejections that we remember start looking more like the poor decision of immature and narcissistic people who were mostly following their biological programming, rather than intentional harm being injected into men by women.”
Looking at it in the way you described is definitely justifiable and I agree as did Rollo. I guess for me it doesn’t make as such sense because I never thought about taking the path to MGTOW after RP, it was never an option after taking the red pill, also all the MGTOW supporters and preachers are very hard stricken on their stance.
January 14th, 2015 at 3:57 pm
“… the woman works to maintain her appearance…”
not just maintain, but change, new hairstyle, outfits, shoes, giving her man (and/or her plan B) a “new” woman to fuck
January 14th, 2015 at 4:01 pm
@agent p
“Try to not get too down. This is for sure the downside of RP, you cannot un-see it. I too struggle with that burden of performance, it’s a double shit kicking when things are not going swimmingly because you have to fix what is not working in life, like say my business, and you have to live with the knowledge that you are likely a few pegs down in her eyes as well as a result of the problem you are addressing.”
You got me all wrong lol, I was just stating how important the burden of performance is, I myself am currently performing pretty damn highly. Got several plates, and getting ripped at the gym, well established career. With every post Rollo throws up, I gain in total confidence and it relates beautifully to reality.
January 14th, 2015 at 4:01 pm
A guy walks into a bar and walks up to three other guys. One of the three calls out loudly to the single guy, “Hey! Fatboy.” He walks over and says in return, “What are you fucking homos doing here? I didn’t know the PRIDE parade was this weekend.”
Shit test? No, just ball busting. Men do that. There is pre-qualification to get into a group – military indoctrination, fraternity hazing, hassling the N00B – but that’s usually a one and done thing. If you show a sense of humor or make a minor effort to fit in then you’re in the group. Once admitted to the group, pecking order usually isn’t established by shit testing but byopen competition (sometimes just by merit), or by tacit understanding, unless you have a lot of douchey friends who like to try to AMOG each other, or if you work around a lot of men who act like bitches.
Actual men spend a lot of time ball busting. There are unwritten rules of course, lines you don’t cross. But if you are hanging out with a group and the guys are all busting your and each others balls, it means you all are friends and it’s cool. You can turn an innocent situation into a shit test by getting butt hurt about it but that’s you constructing a sort of double-reverse-shit-test out of a non-test situation and engineering a situation to throw yourself out of the group. Getting punched on the arm, offensive nicknames, jokes about your ex wife dating the local NBA team is just give and take. I wish there were more of it and that we as a society had less of a stick up our ass over how men relate to the world.
January 14th, 2015 at 4:02 pm
The compromise between good and worst is worse. The compromise between peace and war is conflict. The compromise between stability and chaos is nonequilibrium.
“Animal species that are not in a state of sexual conflict are more likely to be in sync to the male dominance hierarchy as the females are more docile in these organizations”
January 14th, 2015 at 4:04 pm
JF12, what kind of men do you work with? Shit talking is an art form in my line of work and its a pretty high testosterone crowd and I reckon oil rigs are as well so my cursorily has been aroused. Like I have said before i don’t see the younger dudes challenging me as testing me per say, they are testing themselves and the world around them
do men shit test women… do you mean tease them like they are 9 years old, rarely take them serious, call them “play things” “baby factories” etc, display all manner of benevolent chauvinism toward them?
“Ton, you think you know everything” My reply, “no darling I don’t know everything just more then you” and walk away.
Marriages that survive are either because the beta eats her shit with a grin on his face; the dude is alpha as fuck or…. she ranks close to unicorn status. I know one happily married beta and his wife is a woman like few others(doesn’t object to his going out to trivia night,or him enjoying beer etc, kept her weight down, their sex life up, keeps the house, schools the kids etc) but, his beta status with women is in addition to a bad ass/ high risk job when they married and now his job is extremely sensitive. Maybe that’s enough? I don’t know but they are one of three couples I know for damn certain where they are more happy then unhappy with each other and he’s the only one who isn’t an alpha ( the other two were unfaithful to their wives etc)
Men and women may need each other for humanity’s sake but MGTOW seem happy and healthy to me. Maybe not the guys on the interwebz going their own way but I know a large number of men doing it and they aren’t suffering etc etc.
My marriage failed because I took her complaints serious.
There is nothing masculine about a voice for men
JF 12 everything in the SMP is a proxy for violence ie power. Money and status is about power, in this case the power to get other men to do violence on your behalf. Athleticism is about raw physical power. Game is about acting like you have the trappings of power
January 14th, 2015 at 4:05 pm
I’m sick of this shit as much as anyone is.
But I remember Glenn saying something I completely agree with: MGTOW is a kind of “rage quit.”
It’s easy to think you’re an “Alpha” when you isolate yourself and don’t open yourself up to any challenges that could potentially test how much of an Alpha you really, truly are.
Or to just give up on changing your behaviors and settle for less than what you know you actually want. “Don’t wish it were easier; wish you were better.”
I am absolutely in disbelief as I’m reading that link to the shit test list that jf12 shared…
…as in, I can’t believe I am reading this. I can’t believe that it’s NECESSARY for me to read this. It’s absolutely mind-bending how fucked we’ve gotten as boys and men in this culture, and not in the good way. It almost seems unreal that any guy on the planet should have to put in this kind of effort just to improve his situation with women.
But it’s just a testament to how ass-backwards and feminine-primary everything in this society is.
Anyway, I’m reading all this stuff, so I might as well put it into practice. If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em.
I used to fucking hate those “assholes” that sniped guy’s girlfriends or wives. Now I’m becoming that guy, because that’s the kind of guy that has success with women and gets what he wants.
It’s been a major change for me:
Going from seeing relationships and marriage as something “sacred” to literally having zero respect for someone’s relationship or marriage, unless I’m friends with them or respect them. It’s a competition, and putting a ring on a girl’s finger doesn’t change that.
I learned recently that getting even a little involved with some guy’s wife, even if I think the guy is a total faggot and deserves for his wife to cheat on him with a guy that’s more of a man than he is (i.e. me), can be a bad idea.
Now that’s really not worth it. People can be fucking nutjobs. I’d still do it without feeling any guilt at all if I knew I could get away with it. And some faggot mate guarding “his wife”, yeah — I’d like to beat the fuck out of him if he tried to lay a hand on me, of course after telling him that trying to knock me out still wouldn’t make his wife want to fuck him more than she wants to fuck me —
— but that’s a great way to land yourself in jail. Or get yourself killed. Manginas don’t have good control over their emotions and I also learned pretty quick how strong the “mate guarding” impulse is in guys that have no options and are stuck with women that have zero genuine interest in them.
They might even be more crazy than I am, although I highly doubt that. Probably better not to find out and stay out of prison.
In the past I’d have sympathy for guys like that, but after all the shit I’ve been through I honestly don’t care, and in a way it actually makes me feel good to “win” because I’m the better man and the girl wants me more, i.e., fuck your marriage, you lost because you’re a pussy, and you’re even more of a pussy for thinking that your marriage actually means anything.
Same with relationships. Before I saw a girl having a boyfriend as a “NO NO” — now it’s open game. May the best man win. I’ve been losing my whole life and I dealt with it, and I took it way harder than most guys do, almost killed myself a bunch of times. Just imagining any guys complaining to me about their girlfriends hooking up with me or anything just makes me want to punch them in the face and tell them to shut the fuck up and stop being such a pussy.
God.
Anyway, the question is: are you going to use the knowledge you have to improve yourself and your life, or only take it halfway, and not get what you want?
I’m at this point myself. I’m pissed off and tired. Exhausted. But if I’m reading all this stuff I might as well apply it to my life. And I have. Not as much as I’d like to be, but I’ve pushed through some major anxiety and had some success.
And I’ve also developed a lot more respect for myself and have flipped from prioritizing other people’s needs to prioritizing my own. If you’re not bringing any value into my life, you can go fuck yourself.
But the people who do bring value into my life, I treat very well and would generally give them the shirt off my back. Funny how I have more energy to truly be good to the people I like and care about since I retracted that energy from people who deserved a punch in the face instead of a helping hand.
January 14th, 2015 at 4:10 pm
Hetero men are the odd men out. Everyone else is against us and our sexual strategy.
Frederick, D., and Fales. M. 2014. Upset Over Sexual versus Emotional Infidelity Among Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, and Heterosexual Adults. Archives of Sexual Behavior. DOI: 10.1007/s10508-014-0409-9 http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0409-9/fulltext.html
January 14th, 2015 at 4:14 pm
@Glenn
“I know, that doesn’t mean I don’t keep trying but there is also reality. The RP is about reality for me and according to reality, I’m just about past it. I do feel grateful for all the hot women I’ve fucked in my life (my N is over 100), I was very fortunate and also worked it very hard but still, to become a spectator in it all is just hard. And how I feel much of the time. I spend a lot of time observing and learning and taking what I can from these observations, but still, I’m mostly on the sidelines.”
I hear yah bud. That’s pretty much the root of our difference in views of reality. I am in my late twenties and literally still have not reached my prime in the SMV. When I am dating or gaming, I have immense confidence, I know I can get anyone I want. But I can also see your side of it, although men have increasing SMV the older we get, no matter what there will eventually be a slow down and then decline. We are indeed in competition with each other, the reason you feel overwhelmed/disheartened is not only the fact that you are being out performed in the SMP but that you are also alone because if you didn’t care about being alone you would be absolutely fine with just smashing and moving on. Not trying to put you down, hell I would feel the same exact way too. That’s why once I reach my prime SMV I will recruit an agent and settle down with and have a family. In the end no one wans to be alone.
January 14th, 2015 at 4:14 pm
This is to illuminate a fact we seem to often loose conscious awareness of.
Most of our discussions here and elsewhere relating to human behavior revolve around a nature vs nurture mental model. This nature vs nurture model is seriously flawed. The flaw is that it does not consider the real and very effectual existence of free will. Free will has steered the course of human history and has the power to steer each of our lives far more than anything else. If this were not true, we would not be where we are today technologically. Our free will ability to think abstractly and create is perhaps what sets us apart from all other species. Our creativity stems from it. We are creators. The human mind and its ability to think and reason independent of outside influence has literally saved the human race from extinction.
In most of our discussions and virtually all academic studies of human behavior, literally every aspect is evaluated in a nature / nurture foundation context. This school of thought assumes everything we do, say and think is attributed to either our genetics, environmental influence, or a combination of both. This intellectual paradigm omits and intentionally ignores free will, individual initiative and decisiveness. Because of this omission, the entire school of thought is unrealistic and essentially a lie. The omission is willful deception. The truth is being avoided. Each of us are “created” or formed as independent individuals with individual will power. How you use it is entirely your choice.
In reality people often make decisions and behave as they intend regardless of genetic or environmental influence. We are formed with the ability to make decisions and take actions uencumbered by any mysterious background “cause and effect” dynamic. Yet the academic study of our behavior is engrossed with “programming” and “innate” abilities or the lack thereof. To be aware or not is itself an act of free will. The entire study of human behavior so far seems to be based on a denial of this reality. It continuously pursues root “causes” often pretending to determine them by introspective conjecture without facts. This is a scam. It is as if a grand lie has been fabricated to scam us into believing we are helpless robots of sorts. The illusion obscures our freedom. We actually are free. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise. How subjugated do you wish to be?
January 14th, 2015 at 4:17 pm
@sfcton, re: “everything in the SMP is a proxy for violence ie power.”
Yeah. But it’s still kind of ugly to me to rip the PSALM apart to see what makes it tick.
January 14th, 2015 at 4:20 pm
@Softek, re: “or only take it halfway”
That’s been my plan, although I can’t recommend it except half-heartedly …
I will say my half-smirk has gotten a lot broader even just today.
January 14th, 2015 at 4:23 pm
@sfcton, re: “i don’t see the younger dudes challenging me as testing me per say, they are testing themselves and the world around them”
That’s what I’m saying. I don’t get challenges or testing per se from men, and certainly not incessantly.
January 14th, 2015 at 4:32 pm
A Publication From The Future!
Fox, J., and Rooney, M. 2015. The Dark Triad and trait self-objectification as predictors of men’s use and self-presentation behaviors on social networking sites. Personality and Individual Differences, Volume 76, April 2015, Pages 161–165.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0191886914007259
The authors argue that a man posting a lot of pictures of himself and clearly editing them to make himself look better is the single best way for a man to show off his Dark Triadness these days.
January 14th, 2015 at 4:35 pm
@ Dr. Jeremy
Only the boss holds standards and goals of performance. The worker endeavors to live up to them, perform, and dreams of a utopia where they get paid anyway.
In fact, anybody who wants something, but does not believe that they have the ability or value to obtain it, ultimately tries to argue for a performance-free ideal to get it anyway.
That really stuck with me. I see it everywhere. Business, politics, relationships, retired people, etc. etc.
January 14th, 2015 at 4:38 pm
And here’s the one from today. The takeaway: context is king, and nurture is queen, and nature is barely the red-headed servant.
Ryan Schacht, Monique Borgerhoff Mulder. Sex ratio effects on reproductive strategies in humans. Royal Society Open Science. DOI: 10.1098/rsos.140402. Published 14 January 2015.
http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/2/1/140402
January 14th, 2015 at 4:41 pm
Dark Triad = using female sexual strategies
January 14th, 2015 at 4:51 pm
Hah, I just clicked and read that whole tweet Rollo shared above. The original post that Sue banned for were literally the exact thing I was talking about that got me banned. That was an avfm commenter who is essentially laying the groundwork for a split between angry MGTOW men being treated poorly by avfm, and avfm who truly believes they’re doing right by bringing about equalism.
That is exactly the kinds of splits that feminism suffered through with it’s false ideology of victimization. It is also exactly the kind of tension you see between elements of cults when extreme ideology is taken to logical extremes rather than tempered by reality. The post by Jason Jonea, is precisely what one would expect the angry females of the pre-2nd-wave feminism to be saying to their elders.
Paul Elam is breeding the next chapter in sexual warfare, though he considers himself in the right.
January 14th, 2015 at 4:54 pm
@ Joe Blow – It seems to me that male ball busting is a fitness test and hierarchy establishing exercise. I know because I don’t submit easily to another man’s dominance, and in fact usually assert mine in any group I’m part of. The difference to me is that I’m competing with the other men – I’m not competing with women, I’m essentially qualifying with her by rejecting her framing of me as a less worthy mating candidate and establishing my own frame.
That’s why making the insult ridiculous and turning it into fun works so well. Just imagine the young hottie does the worst she can imagine and while you are doing your best approach work, she asks rudely, “Are you gay?” The only response is, “Yeah, I just came out and I was wondering if you could show me how to suck cock?”
Try that with your buddies, not so much. Although I’m such a fucking dickhead that when a guy friend pulls this with me, I often just act gay and grab the guy’s cock and hump his leg – I even kissed a guy on the lips who made an asshole comment like that once, but I’m a fucking maniac and not everyone can pull that shit off.
Fyi, I also put limits on ballbusting. I’ve punched two guys who made daughter jokes (back when I gave a shit about the ungrateful little cunt). I’m a handful and often am not playing when shit like that comes up. It’s especially bad when a stranger does it. I was out with a female friend one night, meeting up with some guys we both knew and this new guy was in the group. He said something really rude to me, in the form of “ball busting” and I would not let it go. There is something really low class about a lot of this and I simply don’t take it. After offering to bash this guy into a state of civility with my motorcycle helmet, I told my friend I was leaving.
Funnily, while she protested while in the bar, as soon as we left she sidled right up to me, told me it was fine and that she understood, and then wrapped herself around me on my rocket ship of a motorcycle as we tore off into late night Manhattan. I was such a fucking idiot, she always responded to my alpha moments and cringed when I worked for her. She’s the only women to ever successfully LJBF me as an adult because she tricked me. I told the whole, long boring story here another time, I won’t torture you with it but she had to actually convince me she wanted a romantic relationship to get me to do it, fucking women!! I always close early and often and if a woman rejects, I move on, I never pine. She had to run a long game on me to fuck with me and in a way, it was one of the sickest things a woman ever did to me. But she responded to that demonstration of dominance in a way that surprised me – I thought she’d be mad that I “made a scene”.
Jesus I was such a fucking idiot for so long. Another aspect of late life Red Pill digestion, you have a lot more past to regret. Another guy said to leave the past behind, sure, easier said than done.
Christ, I’m such a whiny bitch today.
January 14th, 2015 at 4:57 pm
@ Dr. Jeremy
Monogamy is a compromise and equilibrium between the biological interests of men and women. It does not maximally allow for either the man or woman to pursue their total interest.
I think your analysis holds water. The only thing I might add is that monogamy frees up time to pursue other interests in life. If I spent all my time chasing women I would miss out on something else. Some of the PUA artist videos on YouTube are amazing. I have respect for their abilities. But at the end of the day all they get is 20 or 30 minutes of condom sex for a night of hard work. Big deal. At age 45 that’s not worth very much to me anymore.
I want to add that I’m not a Low-T pansy, hehe. I have roughly 12% bodyfat and plenty of muscle. But I’ve noticed that as I get older women don’t hold quite the same level of importance that they used to. Not that I don’t want sex or that I don’t turn my head to look at a pretty woman. But it’s just not the same as when I was 20.
January 14th, 2015 at 5:30 pm
ALPHA FUCKS = Bad Boy = Sexual Pet
BETA BUCKS = Good Dad = Good Provider
BOTH of these male characterizations are feminine primary. They both require the male to display and exercise specifically and clearly prescribed traits and roles as defined by a feminine frame. Hopeful practitioners seek to satisfy specifics of one or both. These traits and roles extensively described in detail originate from the female paradigm regardless of who is describing them. And what a theatrical paradigm it is…..The “BURDEN OF PERFORMANCE” is female primary. Do you really want to be trapped on her hamster wheel? Are you her hampster?
With BOTH characterizations (separately or together), gender “complimentarianisim” is a female primary dynamic where the male exists to “compliment” or serve the female. The female does not compliment the male or provide value. Her role is one of leisure and self indulgence with the most control.
If the hopeful practitioners of EITHER characterization are seeking self fulfillment, their efforts are futile and they can expect a life of dilsllusionment, frustration, angst and ultimately self loathing.
January 14th, 2015 at 5:49 pm
sfcton
January 14th, 2015 at 7:55 am
I have to disagree that shit test aren’t pass/ fail. Shit tests are pass/ fail. Pass them and your value/ frame improves or stays neutral. Fail them and the pussy dries up. Pass enough of them and the number of shit tests decline but I agree there is no finality to them.
Yes.
January 14th, 2015 at 5:52 pm
Women have evolved not to be complementary partners or helpmates to men, but rather exploitive, parasitic users. Women use and exploit men using chivalry to shame men into supporting, serving and providing for them.
January 14th, 2015 at 5:57 pm
Not Born This Morning
January 14th, 2015 at 5:30 pm
Do you want to f*ck c*nts or not? It does no good to play football in a baseball game.
Do you want children or not? You will need to master her on her terms if you want to avoid the courts.
OK. You are going to avoid THEM. Good. More for me.
January 14th, 2015 at 5:59 pm
@Rollo, re: ” In our evolutionary past, killing a rival was the ultimate social proof of Alpha dominance.”
The quote is from your Insanity Plea post.But I submit that, since alpha is a *sexual* concept involving primarily dominance in inter-sexual conflict, NOT intra-sexual competition for enhanced female sexual selection, then there is an entirely different proof of actual Alpha dominance.
January 14th, 2015 at 6:02 pm
Anonymous2
January 14th, 2015 at 5:52 pm
Yeah? So? You want to get laid or not? Raise a family or not?
You might as well say lion taming is a dangerous sport. You up for it or not?
January 14th, 2015 at 6:06 pm
Unfortunately a broadening smirk is not very appropriate for Wednesday night Bible study. Also unfortunately I can’t seem to find someone to wipe that smirk off my face for me, so I’ll have to do it myself.