Glenn and a few others had a question about last week’s Love Commodity post.:
@Rollo – This seems very inconsistent to me. How can this be true – ” Men and women can and do love each other intensely and genuinely. They can and do see past each other’s deficiencies and their love endures. ” While this is true? “In an era of unapologetic feminine primacy and unignorable open Hypergamy, this commodification undeniably rests with the feminine.”
You’ll have to forgive a long explanation, I couldn’t simply drop this into the commentary, a full post was necessary.
The first thing we need to consider is the Male Experience vs. the female experience. I hate to get too existential, but it comes down to our individuated experiences as men and women. I’m going to give two examples here and this will also cover the Hypergamy is everything thread I noticed the commentary too.
There’s an interesting conflict of societal messaging we get from an equalitarian / feminine-primary social order. This is one that simultaneously tells us that “we are not so different” or “we are more alike than we are different” and then, yet implores use to “celebrate our diversity” and “embrace (or tolerate) our differences” as people.
This is easily observable in issues of ethnicity, but it also crosses over into issues of gender. The most popular trope is that ideas of gender are a social construct and that women and men are comparative equals and only their physical plumbing makes them different in form only.
From a Red Pill perspective we see the error in evidence of this egalitarian fantasy. I’ve written countless posts on the evidential and logical fallacies that make up gender equalism, but the important thing to be aware of is the conflict inherent within that belief – equalism expects men and women’s existential experiences to be the same, while also pleading that we embrace the differences it purports we don’t actually have.
It fundamentally denies the separation, from an evolved biological / psychological perspective, that men and women experience life in different ways. The idea is that it’s the nebulous ‘society’ that determines our gender experiences and less, if nothing, of it is truly influenced by a human being’s psychological-biological firmware.
zdr01dz posted this:
I think maybe this is in part because men have no innate desire to marry up. Hypergamy doesn’t compute for us. I know what hunger feels like and I assume women feel it the same way I do. I’m empathetic to poor, hungry children because I know what they’re feeling. However I have no idea what hypergamy feels like. I’ve never felt it’s pull.
My second example comes from Women and Sex in which I explore the fallacy of the social convention that insists “women are just as sexual as men” and that “women want sex, enjoy sex, even more than men.”
This canard is both observably and biologically disprovable, but the presumption is based on the same “we’re all the same, but celebrate the difference” conflicting principle that I mentioned above. If a dynamic is complimentary to the feminine then the biological basis is one we’re expected to ’embrace the diversity’ of, but if the dynamic is unflattering to the feminine it’s the result “of a society that’s fixated on teaching gender roles to ensure the Patriarchy, we’re really more alike than not.”
The idea is patently false because there is no real way any woman can experience the existence and conditions that a man does throughout his life. I mention in that essay about how a female amateur body builder I knew who was dumbstruck by how horny she became after her first cycle of anabolic steroids. “I can’t believe men can live in a state like this” were her exact words. She was just beginning to get a taste of what men experience and control in their own skins 24 hours a day and it was unsettling for her.
Women are used to a cyclic experience of sexuality, whereas men must be ready to perform at the first, best opportunity sexually. These are our individuated experiences and despite all the bleating of the equalists they are qualitatively different. As zdr01dz observes, no man has an idea of what Hypergamy feels like. To my knowledge there is no drug or hormone that can simulate the existential experience of Hypergamy. Even if there were, men and women’s minds are fundamentally wired differently, so the simulated experience could never be replicated for a man.
I understand how Hypergamy works from observing the behavior and understanding the motivating biology for it. I also understand that our species evolved with, and benefitted from it – or at least it makes deductive sense that what we know as Hypergamy today is a derivative of that evolution – but what I don’t have is a firsthand, existential experience of Hypergamy and I never will. Likewise, women will never have a similar existential experience of what it’s like to be a man.
So it should be an easy follow to deduce that how a woman experiences love, as based on her Hypergamic opportunistic impulses, is a fundamentally different experience than that of a man’s. The equalist social order want’s love to be an equal, mutual, agreement on a definition of love that transcends individuated gender experience, but it simply will not accept that an intersexual experience of love is defined by each sex’s individuated experience.
I have no doubt that there are areas of crossover in both men’s idealistic concept of love and women’s opportunistic concept, but this experience of love is still defined by gender-specific individuation. By that I mean that women can and do experience intense feelings of love for a man based on her Hypergamously influenced criteria for love.
I’m actually surprised that more women have yet to call me to the carpet about their personal experiences of love from the commodity post, but if you sift through the comments on Women in Love and other blog/forum comments you’ll come across examples of women describing in great detail how deeply they love their husbands / boyfriends, and are in complete disarray over being told their love stems from Hypergamic opportunism. Again, I have no doubt that their feelings of love are genuine to them based on their individuated concepts of love; indeed they’re ready to fight you tooth and nail to defend their investment in those feelings. What I’m saying is that the criteria a man should need to meet in order to generate those emotions and arrive at a love state are not universally mutual as an equalitarian social order would have the whole of society believe.
So, yes, men and women can and do love each other intensely and genuinely – from their own individuated experiences. They can and do see past each other’s deficiencies and their love endures. The processes they used to come to this love state differs in concept and existential individuation, and what sustains that love state is still dependent upon the criteria of men’s idealistic and women opportunistic concepts of love.
The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.
The commodification of that love state is presently weighted on the feminine because the Feminine Imperative is socially ascendant. The importance of satisfying the female sexual (and really life-goal) strategy takes primary social precedence today. Thus men’s individuated experience is devalued to an assumption of an “it’s-all-equal” universality while women’s is blown up out of all real valuation with collective expectations of “embracing their unique difference” set apart from that universality. If men’s experience is one-size-fits-all it’s really a small, and socially blameless, step for a woman to withhold the reward criteria men place on their idealistic love in order to satisfy their own sexual strategy.
Women’s social primacy allows them to feel good about themselves for commodifying the idealistic rewards men value to come to their own state of love, as well as maintain it.
It is one further step to embrace the concept that men’s experience of love, the idealism he applies to it and even his own sexual and life imperatives are in fact the same as those of women’s – while still setting women’s apart when it serves them better. Thus the cardinal rule of sexual strategies comes to a feminine-primary consolidation by socially convincing men that women’s experience and imperatives are, or should be considered to be, the same as men’s individuated experiences. Add women’s already innate solipsism to this and you have a formula for a gender-universal presumption of the experience of love based primarily on the individuated female experience of love.
In other words, women expect men to socially and psychologically agree with, reinforce and cooperate with the opportunistic feminine model of love as the equalist, gender-mutual model model of love while still believing that women share their own idealistic model. It’s the correct model that should work for everyone, or so women’s solipsism would have us believe.
January 6th, 2015 at 2:35 pm
@ Atticus
Or maybe women don’t love at all? They have strong chemical attachments to their babies (love), but once the babies grow up, they’re just other people to use.
In my mother’s case that is certainly true. She doesn’t care about her adult children or even grandchildren but she might be a special case. I remember her chatting it up about dating while my dad, her dutiful husband of almost 50 years lay dying from cancer. Thankfully she was out of the room and he couldn’t hear her. I never figured out if she was a sociopath, had a screw loose or both.
January 6th, 2015 at 2:35 pm
@Badpainter re: “It’s not the emotion it’s the intensity.”
ROFL! Define “enjoy”!
January 6th, 2015 at 2:43 pm
^^^^^
I should add that when she was young my mother married a guy who had other wives in different cities. When she found out she divorced him but was already pregnant with my sister. My father who was the most honest, dutiful beta provider you would ever meet married her a few years later, had a great career and cared for her the rest of his life. She barely worked and was a lazy mother. During my entire childhood I can’t remember her showing any appreciation towards my dad. All she did was complain.
January 6th, 2015 at 2:46 pm
Love makes a woman think her man is the best one.
Love makes a man think his woman is the only one.
January 6th, 2015 at 2:50 pm
zdr01dz – “During my entire childhood I can’t remember her showing any appreciation towards my dad. All she did was complain.”
My mother showed either tremendous appreciation to my father or resigned self pitying martyrdom. I being the oldest got to here all of her complaints in excruciating detail. Darth Dread was only rarely forced to hear complaints because ..well…dread.
January 6th, 2015 at 2:51 pm
@ jf12
I might save that one for my son’s facts of life talk in a few years.
January 6th, 2015 at 2:56 pm
@ Jeremy
When a woman expresses overt interest in a man, that man will be more attracted to HER as a result (assuming she surpasses a certain threshold of physical attractiveness).
When a man expresses overt interest in a woman, that woman will be more attracted to HERSELF as a result, but not more attracted to him. This is why so many women enjoy validation from male orbiters – the attraction of those orbiters make her feel sexy and powerful, but not more attracted to any of them. And, feeling sexy and powerful, she is more likely to go out and have sex with a man….whom she already finds attractive.
The man whom she already finds attractive may be good-looking, but more importantly he will be powerful/high-status. Being high-status, he will exhibit outcome-independence and will not be very affected by his surroundings. The fact that the woman can elicit an erection in a high-status man who is otherwise unaffected by his surroundings makes her feel ESPECIALLY attracted to herself, and more likely to overtly express the attraction she already feels toward him.
So I think you have your cause and effect a bit backwards. Women are not attracted to erections in men. They feel empowered by causing those erections on men to whom they are ALREADY attracted. No woman would feel attracted to a hobo if she caused him to have an erection, but she might smile about it later and feel better about herself.
January 6th, 2015 at 2:58 pm
One more thoughtcatalog
http://thoughtcatalog.com/anonymous/2015/01/the-14-men-i-fcked-in-2014-a-modern-love-story/
From comments “Women bragging about getting laid is like men bragging about masturbating.”
The best comment of the year.
January 6th, 2015 at 3:00 pm
@ badpainter
My dad worked a lot and so he wasn’t around much but other than that he was the ideal father. He was stable, reliable and honest. Definitely not dread, hehehehe.
My mom is half Swedish and was very attractive when she was young. Yep, that’s pretty much her only good point. She is the kind of woman that Rollo and every guy on this board would poor scorn on.
January 6th, 2015 at 3:19 pm
@ jf12
The princess in your link in is clearly worth a fuck, and not much else. My fear is she both typical and representative.
January 6th, 2015 at 3:21 pm
“Men aren’t permitted to have expectations of women. Men are expected to perform. The whining is about not knowing what we are performing for.”
Well, yes. But really the “whining”, as it were, is about not knowing the criteria against which our performance is being measured, nor the person(s) applying the constantly shifting criteria.
Something I posted at donalgraeme’s a while ago seems appropriate.
“Men are trained in the present culture that they are being constantly judged, evaluated, weighed in the scales, and compared to others. We have to go out there and prove ourselves to everyone in our lives – friends, family, employers, subordinates, peers.
“The male experience, the experience of men, is shot through with this. It permeates our lives, our every waking moment. We know that everyone – everyone – is judging, evaluating, and comparing us. And for most men, dating and married life is no different.
“Your marriage to a woman is no guarantee that she will not leave you in abject poverty, take your children, and maybe let you see them every other weekend. Your marriage is no guarantee that she will let you have sex or even that she likes you. Every day when you awaken until the moment you go to sleep, you must prove, prove and prove again that you’re worthy of sex, love, affection, and her continued residence with you. She is constantly judging and evaluating you, and comparing you to the other men she used to have sex with. And she has every right to do this. You will know some, but not all, of the standards against which you’re being measured; and those standards are constantly changing depending on how she feels that day. And if you are found wanting, you’ll be jettisoned with the full support of everyone else – the church, her pastors, her friends and her parents. Maybe you’ll know why, maybe you won’t, but you will be jettisoned. And what’s more, there’s not a damn thing you can do about any of this.”
January 6th, 2015 at 3:24 pm
Re: female arousal.
There was a NYT article about this (the same one that discussed the studies of vaginal responses to various visual stimuli) a few years ago, and basically the scientists quoted in the article were saying that a woman’s arousal is quasi-narcissistic in that what gets them most aroused, sexually, is the fact of a desirable man’s arousal for them. The man has to be desirable, or in that frame, but it is his arousal for them, the fact that he finds them arousing (and the erection is the lie detector test on that) that makes her aroused. In a sense, she is aroused by the fact that she is arousing to a desirable man — her own desirability, as reflected in a desirable man’s erection, is what arouses her.
January 6th, 2015 at 3:27 pm
My 14 Times In 2014.
1. #1 was pretty good, kind of necessary, but good.
2. Unsurprisingly, #2, was pretty good too.
3. So too #3.
etc.
January 6th, 2015 at 3:39 pm
@Novaseeker, re: NYT article.
Here it is.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/25/magazine/25desire-t.html
Women’s desire is narcissistic (not quasi-) and receptive.
January 6th, 2015 at 3:40 pm
@ Novaseeker
Women have told me directly
A) When a penis is flaccid it isn’t anything special.
B) A penis attached to a low status man is gross.
C) A penis isn’t appealing unless it is aroused and attached to a good man.
NYTimes article is 100% correct.
January 6th, 2015 at 3:45 pm
@ Deti
And people wonder why men drop out.
The burden of performance is bad enough as you illustrate. But what are performing for? The chance be some fucked out slut’s Beta savior when she gets tired of the game? When do we get to demand others perform for us?
I was raised with the burden. Do for others, puts others first, be the perfect guest and demand nothing, be the perfect host and cater to every whim, be nice till it hurts, accept responsibility both for actions and inactions. Share and don’t be selfish. Never take the last cookie. Let others go first.
You get the idea. When I was about 15 some form of that instruction was being presented and I asked if at any point I would benefit from this, would there ever be reprocity. The response was that was I being selfish, and I should consider how that reflected on my parents. So the answer in 1985 was there is no reward in performing. In 2015 the question is if there is no reward why perform at all?
January 6th, 2015 at 3:54 pm
@thedeti. “Men are trained in the present culture that they are being constantly judged, evaluated, weighed in the scales, and compared to others. We have to go out there and prove ourselves to everyone in our lives – friends, family, employers, subordinates, peers.
“The male experience, the experience of men, is shot through with this. It permeates our lives, our every waking moment. We know that everyone – everyone – is judging, evaluating, and comparing us. And for most men, dating and married life is no different.”
Perhaps men do not love either, men serve. I commented earlier that I am beginning to believe love does not exist. Blackdragon (who thinks monogamy is incompatible with humanity) has a term he calls NRE: New Relationship Energy. What the world calls love, he calls NRE and it wears off in three years, maximum.
I take that a step further; after the NRE wears off, all that’s left is a habit. Could be a good habit or a bad habit, but it’s a habit. And, with today’s dominant FI, it’s difficult to break the habit.
I have been racking my brain trying to remember experiencing love. All I can feel is this routine I’ve been following for decades. The service men provide in marriage: genes, security, money, companionship, stability, guidance, etc. are all directed to something or someone else. I’m not saying there have not been moments of tremendous personal happiness and contentment, goals reached, battles won (and lost). I’m just not sure this habit is love.
Men serve and we call that love, women use and they call that love.
Just thinking out loud.
January 6th, 2015 at 4:00 pm
@ BP
Alphas produce tingles. They are loved for their tingle production. Beta are loved for their income generation.
January 6th, 2015 at 4:04 pm
@gamer
Betas are grudgingly tolerated for their income generation.
FTFY
January 6th, 2015 at 4:05 pm
“and they call that love”
A fine song title.
January 6th, 2015 at 4:10 pm
Roll Over, Brady
1. Be sexually confident
2. Be sexually dominant
3. Don’t be undominant
January 6th, 2015 at 4:12 pm
theasdgamer – “Beta are loved for their income generation.”
I’d hardly call it love.
Unless you’re saying it can be purchased by the hour. In which case “love” is a luxury service of no real consequence or utility.
January 6th, 2015 at 4:19 pm
Jeremy
January 6th, 2015 at 1:01 pm
I think I did state that wrong. I think I mean to say that “no other women had as great an effect”.
I work that one on the fm all the time. “Of course I want other women and will f them. But you can win me back by wanting me more than the other woman does. You have done it numerous times in the past.”
Gotta keep that dread up. I also frequently point out, “The men that most attract you are those a lot of other women want.”
January 6th, 2015 at 4:23 pm
Love is dead.
http://www.people.com/article/nicholas-sparks-wife-cathy-separate
January 6th, 2015 at 4:25 pm
Novaseeker
January 6th, 2015 at 3:24 pm
These days (I’m 70) I only get aroused if she wants me desperately.
When I got more easily aroused in the past I wasn’t attracted to any but those who showed a lot of interest. Generally.
January 6th, 2015 at 4:34 pm
“Beta are loved for their income generation.”
“I’d hardly call it love.
“Unless you’re saying it can be purchased by the hour. In which case “love” is a luxury service of no real consequence or utility.”
______________
It used to be that the transaction (he gives his resources for sex; she gives her body for resources and protection) was enough. That is, until the women who were married to betas decided they wanted their own money so they wouldn’t have to marry (or stay married to) a beta.
It’s all about sexual freedom (not having to have sex with betas) and economic freedom (not having to depend on a beta for provision).
Of course, what this ultimately leads to is that the average woman gets leveled up with the higher SMV women for the chance to play the alpha fux lottery.
Which is why men in marriages are left with the nuclear dread of “No sex; no marriage. If I’m not entitled to sex; then you’re not entitled to my money, protection or fidelity.”
January 6th, 2015 at 4:39 pm
Dr. Meredith Chivers:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2003/06/030613075252.htm
January 6th, 2015 at 4:43 pm
Just for convenience:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/09/10/the-male-experience/
http://therationalmale.com/2014/09/23/the-burden-of-performance/
http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/13/the-burden-of-selectivity/
January 6th, 2015 at 4:44 pm
I feel really fortunate and appreciative to have discovered red pill knowledge of the reality of women. Although I will never get married, I still socialize with and date women. I understand their behavior now and how to deal with them. Women can be very enjoyable without marrying them.
January 6th, 2015 at 4:47 pm
For those not in the know, Nicholas Sparks is the author of several best selling romantic fiction novels, at least two of which (Notebook, The Vow) were made into popular films. One would think if anyone could keep a marriage together, it would be Sparks.
The films are typical panty-wetting fare: Alpha men are irresistibly drawn to attractive women, love conquers all, against all odds their love sustains them; they all live happily ever after.
Interestingly he’s been married to her since he was 24, long before he hit it big. They’ve been married 25 years so he’s 49. Judging from the photo accompanying the People piece, he’s still got some good looks but has a solidly beta/supplicating mien and bearing. She’s no slouch herself and since they’ve been together 25 years she has to be at least mid 40s.
Could be one of any number of things split them up. Given his success and looks; and her looks which put her in the top 2% of women her age, it seems likely that there was an interloper in there somewhere. I’m guessing she probably had an affair. 25-year marriages don’t bust up like that unless someone stepped out.
January 6th, 2015 at 4:48 pm
jf12
January 6th, 2015 at 4:23 pm
Love is dead.
http://www.people.com/article/nicholas-sparks-wife-cathy-separate
From the link:
“I don’t like to give marriage tips,” he told PEOPLE in 2003. “There are people who are probably much better at marriage than I am – they’ve lasted a lot longer. I could probably learn from them.”
He writes romance stories for women. Probably a blue pill.
Which got me to thinking. Do women like romance stories because they wish they could love like a man? I dunno. Haven’t read a lot of them but it seems that they are also about bringing out the bad boy’s inner beta. Pure fantasy.
January 6th, 2015 at 5:00 pm
In that regard “How to Marry a Millionaire” with Marilyn Monroe. was good.
January 6th, 2015 at 5:00 pm
These female lizard’s sexual markings are vestigial. The advantage isn’t so secret. (The more male-seeming) “females are less harassed by overly eager suitors”
http://news.sciencemag.org/biology/2015/01/bearded-female-lizards-turn-males-have-secret-advantages
January 6th, 2015 at 5:03 pm
@jeremy
I think we may be splitting hairs w.r.t. defining attraction. Hard science has demonstrated that women have a measurable biological response to seeing an erection. That is just fact. Now, it’s fair to say that that does not constitute attraction, I would allow that. I also agree with your take on the importance of the narcissism, what matters is how she feels about herself. That’s why I added the caveats at the end of demonstrating high value. However, I still maintain that covertly communicating her affect on you (with attention, words, eye contact, touch, etc..) is the core tenet of game. That’s basically the same thing as saying, “your boner is what she’s attracted to,” in so many words.
January 6th, 2015 at 5:07 pm
@deti, re: “it seems likely that there was an interloper in there somewhere. I’m guessing she probably had an affair.”
Me too. Sparks has always been described as a devout, even fervent, Catholic, from birth.
http://catholicexchange.com/faith-family-and-fitness-an-interview-with-nicholas-sparks
January 6th, 2015 at 5:10 pm
@M Simon, it’s important to bear in mind that ALL romance novels follow a very predictable time tested formula (which is why it’s been the single most selling genre of fiction for over 100 years).
Watch the video on this post:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/04/12/50-shade-of-twilight/
This is exactly the same formula Jane Austen and Emily Bronte used in the early and mid 1800’s. The central male role is always a bad boy Alpha that only the female protagonist has the unique capacity to tame into a perfect balance of AF/BB.
It never changes, so to think a Beta guy might be able to replicate that formula is no great stretch.
January 6th, 2015 at 5:17 pm
re: women wanting to tame the alpha male
The symplectification might involve men wanting to arouse the wild thing in a good girl.
January 6th, 2015 at 5:19 pm
So, is this why women don’t want to try to make betas more alpha? Because all their hopes and fantasies are exactly the opposite?
January 6th, 2015 at 5:28 pm
Off topic remark about Just Getting It. After you finally Just Get It, you will have already Just Gotten It to every woman thereafter.
January 6th, 2015 at 5:35 pm
Jeremy – “This says something about female sexuality and sexual power”
or as Bette Davis said in some film, “I’d like to kiss ya, but I just washed my hair”
January 6th, 2015 at 5:47 pm
It’s the year for more Caitlins. I should hate myself for liking Nicole Mullen’s work.
http://thoughtcatalog.com/nicole-mullen/2015/01/13-new-ways-for-white-girls-to-spell-caitlin/
Just a couple of years ago, out of thirteen girls in my 2nd grade Sunday School class, seven were named Katelynn or Cate Lynne etc. This year they’re all Bella or Hannah.
January 6th, 2015 at 6:13 pm
Given his success and looks; and her looks which put her in the top 2% of women her age, it seems likely that there was an interloper in there somewhere. I’m guessing she probably had an affair.
Probably.
I think what happens is that women who are in that category (top 5% of women in their 40s) themselves have a kind of “rock star” status among men in appropriate age ranges, and even among much younger men who are into having sex with cougars. I have known a couple of women like this at work who blew up their marriages in their mid-40s — these were quite the top 5% in their age range types. I think the temptation is too great to get one final check cashed for their sexual power, and the fact that most women in their 40s are no competition at all fuels that to a large degree because it increases their status even more. The siren call of actualizing their sexual power for one last time (and perhaps in a context where they have never had the same advantage over their age peer women) can be irresistible to some women, I think.
January 6th, 2015 at 6:17 pm
So, is this why women don’t want to try to make betas more alpha? Because all their hopes and fantasies are exactly the opposite?
Simpler. The alpha is what attracts. The beta isn’t. So, they have no incentive to alpha-ize a beta, because not attracted. Lots of incentive to tame the attractive alpha, though, because by doing so they can “own” their own private alpha male, who is by definition attractive (and was even before he was tamed … whereas a beta won’t be attractive pre-transition, and so no incentive to try to change him … he needs to do that for himself so he presents in the first instance as alpha).
January 6th, 2015 at 8:15 pm
Hi Rollo,
What’s the pinnacle for a guy? And what age?
I’m in my 20’s, master’s degree, in shape (cut, muscular, but not huge), 5’11”, professional job, I’m getting laid (6′, 7’s), but not slaying/ walking out w/ 8’s from the bars even semi regular.
How do you get over that threshold. Is money the key catalyst?
A normal, but hot guy is in a difficult spot unless he’s dressed designer, awesome face and BUILT like minor steroid/hgh user
January 6th, 2015 at 8:17 pm
Especially for young girls, pre-epiphany.
And as a young guy, that’s all we should even be going for.
January 6th, 2015 at 8:21 pm
Rollo Tomassi
January 6th, 2015 at 5:10 pm
Thanks for the confirmation. I’m going to look at the link.
January 6th, 2015 at 8:24 pm
I’ve been chatting on my blog with a woman about whether I cheated on my wife or not. She’s wanting me to state unequivocally whether I have or not. My view is that saying that I didn’t cheat is the same as a woman saying that she had a high N-count, so I wouldn’t specify that I didn’t cheat even if I didn’t cheat. Any thoughts about this? My wife is certain that I cheated, and, of course, she if more sexually attracted to me than ever–in line with jf12’s Bad Boy Rules:
1) Be a jerk–the jerkier, the better.
2) Be very bad. Cheat a lot. If you can’t cheat, make her think you did.
3) Never admit to cheating or not cheating.
January 6th, 2015 at 8:33 pm
@ Nathan
A normal, but hot guy is in a difficult spot unless he’s dressed designer, awesome face and BUILT like minor steroid/hgh user
Codswallop. An 8 has been trying to lay me for a while. Her bf is a body builder and 20 years younger than me, but beta. I’m a unicorn, I guess–I appear a lot badder than I really am. And I’m very picky and the wimmenz know it. I’m as aloof as all h311 and my walk and body language are solid. I flash my smile/grin sparingly and to good effect. I rarely chat.
I have no doubt that YaReally over on Heartiste lays 8’s all the time. He’s got a little paunch on him as he admits. Maybe a 7 in looks. Doesn’t have flashy clothes. However, his game is rock solid.
January 6th, 2015 at 8:34 pm
Rollo,
More confirmation. The number of times the fm has alluded to taming me is legion. And if I begin to act a little tamed to please her (and besides I like being nice at least to some extent) she loses interest. So I go back to what works.
I recently tried an experiment – “You be submissive no matter what and I’ll be very good to you. Foot rubs, general massage, help around the house (non-emergency honey dos) etc.” She agreed. It lasted about 10 days. So I’m back to total domination to reestablish frame.
Most amusing.
What ever they think about what they want – it is not what they want.
January 6th, 2015 at 8:41 pm
Mostly, its just about being Tuff
January 6th, 2015 at 9:00 pm
I’m researching AYI, which is a facebook dating app. I’m filtering by age and gradually reducing the age to see what effect it has on the number of contacts I get from women. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them are AYI ringers. When the age was wide open, I got a contact about every 1.5 hours. At 43 and below (realistically, 48 and below), it’s down to 1 every 5 hours.
January 6th, 2015 at 9:19 pm
theasdgamer
January 6th, 2015 at 8:24 pm
I think rule #3 is optional. i.e. dependent on how alpha the female is (she likes competing and winning). I’d come home after an episode with another woman unwashed and have her give me a bj. After she got the taste she would complain. I would wash up and tell her about it and she would come on to me like crazy.
On occasion I have dropped her off at home while continuing on with the other woman. Back home 6 hours later. She is smokin hot for me.
She admits frequently if I prompt her, “I like watching you with other women. It makes me hot for you.”
You know what a beta woman would do. Throw me out and never speak to me again. We had a friend who did that to her husband. We both counciled her to fight for her man. She just stewed. Their son suicided over the break up. Dumb evil c*nt. And she still refers to the other woman as “slutface”. But I hardly ever talk to her anymore. Beta women are so ugly.
January 6th, 2015 at 9:29 pm
Nathan
January 6th, 2015 at 8:15 pm
Self confidence at the extreme arrogance level is the key.
January 6th, 2015 at 10:15 pm
@ Nathan
Especially for young girls, pre-epiphany.
And as a young guy, that’s all we should even be going for.
The 8 is 25 yo. Younger than my kids.
January 6th, 2015 at 10:26 pm
@ msimon
Mrs. Gamer is alpha, but INTJ. She has some rules that will cause her to walk. And there’s the whole ethical question of keeping one’s vows. But I agree, there are situations where rule 3 is optional. Probably not optional for most men.
And cosign the extremely arrogant confidence, but it needs to be fleshed out.
1) alpha body language
2) aloof attitude
3) social proof
I think that the 8 ditched her beta bf already. I merely mentioned that he seemed to be watching us whenever we danced together (the implication being that he was insecure). She agreed that it made her uncomfortable. Haven’t seen her with him for a while. I think that she compares all her guys with me–an alpha widow already merely by knowing me, lol. Jedi mind tricks.
January 6th, 2015 at 11:20 pm
@Nathan, re: better results from the bar scene.
Up the alpha. Up the alpha. More sexual confidence. More sexual dominance.
Verbal courtship and mating behavioral studies, especially online text-based dating site stuff, has been done to death in recent years. But prior to apps THE hookup scene was the bar scene. And the queen of studying the *success* of bar scene nonverbal hookup behaviors, both prior to and after The Game, is Monica Moore. A nice reference, although not everything is in there, is
Moore M. 2010. Human nonverbal courtship behavior—a brief historical review. Journal of Sex Research, 47(2-3), 171-180.
http://thunte11.wikispaces.com/file/view/Human+Nonverbal+Courtship+Behavior.pdf
The only thing that really mattered to (thousands of covertly observed bar scene interactions resulting in) hookup/pickup success was behaviors, NOT looks. For women, the more IOIs they threw out the more they were picked up; looks didn’t matter at all, not a bit. For men, the more confident and dominant behaviors they exhibited, especially of course approaching and initiating, the more success they had in picking up; looks didn’t matter at all *except* to the extent that better looking men acted more dominant.
Yes, you’re going to whine that 8s are harder to pick up than 6s. But it is still driven mostly by behavior, distant second by looks.
January 6th, 2015 at 11:40 pm
@ Nathan
I’m getting laid (6′, 7’s), but not slaying/ walking out w/ 8’s from the bars even semi regular. How do you get over that threshold. Is money the key catalyst?
Money is not the key at your age. Monica Lewinsky is an HB3 and she bagged the President of the United States. Let that sink in for a minute.
If a 20 something HB8 to HB10 is interested in money/gifts and she is willing to hand out easy sex in return she can score a guy with more money, power and status than you will ever have. She can get a CEO, Hollywood A-lister, Rap star, Oil Sheik, etc. etc. Your 2010 BMW will not impress her.
If you want easy sex from 20 something HB8s – HB10s you need one of two things.
1) Male model good looks
2) Magnetic personality with game
January 6th, 2015 at 11:44 pm
@jf12
You know the only issue I have with upping the alpha sometimes is that there’s such thing as “too much”, but I can’t figure out how it works. I mean it’s like if your cockiness exceeds your actual ability to keep up with what it gets you in to, women know really quick. Hell people in general do.
I’m not saying there’s an absolute “too much alpha”, I’m saying there’s too much for your current level of experience with being alpha, if that makes sense. I guess the key is just more attempts and more time to continue upping it, but it’s a frustratingly slow process.
January 7th, 2015 at 12:11 am
re: “there’s such thing as “too much””
Too many women, too many pills, …
January 7th, 2015 at 12:16 am
re: “women know real quick”
No, women do not know. Probably the single biggest burden I’ve sloughed off this past year is the suspicion that women had secret radars. They don’t.
January 7th, 2015 at 12:31 am
@ Sun Wukong & jf12
It’s less a matter of if women “know real quick” or not. It’s matter of whether or we care if they do. Indifference is the key. Outcome independence is key. Whether they know or not so what? Their opinions get changed like underwear, and have about as much utility. It not that they’re stupid, it’s that they’re silly little things with silly little ideas.
Remember in the junior high how easy it was to shut down girls by laughing at them? Nothing has changed since then. Nothing invalidates a woman’s faster than breaking her frame, and nothing works better for that than laughing AT her when she’s trying to be all serious and adult like. If that doesn’t work say “you’re so cute when you’re pretentious.”
January 7th, 2015 at 1:18 am
Sun Wukong
January 6th, 2015 at 11:44 pm
Agree. Your arrogance must match your ability. It is true in engineering. It is true with women.
January 7th, 2015 at 1:45 am
@bp
So it’s a lack of outcome independence? And I wasn’t saying women had special radar at all. It just seems that it comes across like maybe something in my behavior winds up incongruous. It just “feels” off to other people. Like how stiff a person looks when trying to correct bad posture. Maybe it seems like it’s not genuine or like they’re posturing and wouldn’t be able to back up their talk, you know?
January 7th, 2015 at 2:33 am
Sun Wukong – “So it’s a lack of outcome independence?”
Yes and no. If you are bothered by how others react then outcome independence plays a role. If you simply observing that something failed to achieve the desired results then it could be objective introspection. If you’re doing something different naturally you’re invested in the outcome to some degree, instead be invested in the process such that all outcomes have value.
You observation about congruence I think is correct. If you see an incongruity in your own behavior change it. My opinion is congruity is essential to frame. One the other hand if you are basing your observational judgements on how you infer others are responding to your behavior then I would say it’s likely in your head.
So when you say it “feels” off to other people, I say “so what, why do you care?” Could these perceptions be a projection of your own anxiety? I would argue frame is most important element of game. What you are talking about sounds to me like a few loose studs in the frame your game is built around. if it were me, and it often has been, I really on being self righteous, and coldly indifferent to the opinions of others. If I am comfortable with my behavior then I don’t give a fuck about those who aren’t.
If, however, you’re getting actual clear and unambiguous feed back then there might something technical you need to address. I think anyone who has to give time to thinking about this sort of thing should view the process like adjusting a stereo volume. You want to be more of what you already are, only the good not the rest.
As an example I will never have the frame or personality to pull of eye-liner and funny hats like Mystery, nor do I want to. Instead I have to play up my strengths; physical size, body language, amused mastery, dry & wry sense of humor, and judicious use of silence and intimidating eye contact, combined with soul of an artist. These are things natural to me, but previously compromised by BluePill notions of respect, and niceness, and my own programmed insecurity.
January 7th, 2015 at 2:46 am
Re: special radar
I’m guessing this belief stems from male insecurity reinforced by female rhetoric. Over the years it’s become an old wives tale, likely a method to use guilt to gain confessions of whatever.
My mother was a pro at this shit and it worked until I demanded a bill of charges. She responded with “you know what you’ve done.” I responded with “then it must not be a big deal or I’d be getting punished.” Darth Dread grounded me for two weeks for rebelliousness. It was around this time I stopped talking to my parents about anything personal.
January 7th, 2015 at 6:43 am
@ jf12
What about the plowhorses?
Let them eat hay. And castrate them besides. There ya go.
January 7th, 2015 at 6:45 am
@ zdr01dz
If you want easy sex from 20 something HB8s – HB10s you need one of two things.
1) Male model good looks
Only for the 10s–the others don’t want to be outdone. In fact, the 10s probably would prefer a man with looks of 8-9.
January 7th, 2015 at 6:49 am
@ Sun
You know the only issue I have with upping the alpha sometimes is that there’s such thing as “too much”, but I can’t figure out how it works. I mean it’s like if your cockiness exceeds your actual ability to keep up with what it gets you in to, women know really quick.
Aloofness will pull a lot of chestnuts out of the fire. When in doubt, break rapport.
January 7th, 2015 at 6:53 am
@ jf12
No, women do not know. Probably the single biggest burden I’ve sloughed off this past year is the suspicion that women had secret radars. They don’t.
They know if you’re paying them too much attention. It alerts their neediness radar, which is very accurate.
January 7th, 2015 at 8:37 am
re: “They know if you’re paying them too much attention.”
They also know if you start paying attention to someone else. All I’m saying is the need for worrying about finesse in this area is overrated, especially for the vast majority of men.
January 7th, 2015 at 9:56 am
I don’t think it’s true that rational confidence beats irrational confidence in terms of success with women.
January 7th, 2015 at 10:03 am
ballista asks, on his site, “why is divornography marketed exclusively to women? Why are there articles in women’s magazines and romance novels for women like Eat Pray Love that glamorize divorce, but nothing of the sort exists or is marketed to men? Why is there no male divorce porn, no stories of men divorcing their obese, aging harpy wives, liberating themselves from their marriage vows, and ending up living happily ever after banging large-breasted 21 year-old lingerie models?”
Can you imagine the uproar? Can you feel the Love yet?
January 7th, 2015 at 10:05 am
@Badpainter, re: “nor do I want to”
You know that’s the only thing stopping you.
January 7th, 2015 at 10:10 am
@ jf12
I don’t think it’s true that rational confidence beats irrational confidence in terms of success with women.
There’s a lot to mine here. If rational confidence comes exclusively from one’s accomplishments, then your statement follows.
However, if one’s rational confidence comes from denying the Pedestalization of Women and accepting the superiority of the Masculine (i.e., the Masculine imperative), then the rational confidence beats irrational confidence. Or maybe you assume that my MI-based confidence is that same as what you call “irrational confidence”.
January 7th, 2015 at 10:18 am
More than ever, I’m leaning to the view that the reason for working on fundamentals: working out, grooming, etc., is to produce confidence. If you get your confidence somewhere else, such as in a bottle from the liquor store, you’ll have success too.
January 7th, 2015 at 10:20 am
The irrational antimating that women do is designed to overcome rational confidence.
January 7th, 2015 at 10:20 am
intermission time
January 7th, 2015 at 10:24 am
@tasdg, thanks for the opportunity for clarification. What I am meaning here by irrational confidence is specifically a man’s behavior directed toward a woman reflecting his level of absolute certainty that he could indeed bang her if he felt like it regardless of any positive feedback he may or may not have received yet.
January 7th, 2015 at 10:27 am
Ain’t no shame in my ‘splain. Women are always vague about what they mean by confidence but it is in reality sexual confidence to the max.
January 7th, 2015 at 10:31 am
Is there any actual defense from women against irrational confidence? I know this is heartiste’s touchstone so he probably has an answer one way or the other, but I think there is no possible defense. Which is why women don’t want betas to learn about it.
January 7th, 2015 at 10:37 am
I’ll testify to the confidence thing. I used to be so passive around girls, especially pretty ones. Like afraid of them. I was over my friend’s the other day and there was an HB10 on the bed. And when I say 10 I mean 10.
Normally I’d avoid her. I’d be so nervous. Instead I just walked in and plopped myself down on the bed right next to her and started watching whatever movie it was they were watching.
I joked around with her a little bit and made some small talk. She was into some similar stuff I’m into — NLP and the like. She was really loud and kind of insane. Which I kind of liked.
No nervousness about making eye contact. I milk the hell out of that. I have amazing eyes and have had tons of people tell me that my whole life — now I finally have the confidence to utilize it.
I could notice subtle shifts in my confidence. Like my confidence waning. I could tell when I was getting nervous. I’m getting better at realizing that I’m the one creating that feeling. It has nothing to do with the girl.
By the end of the night she was deliberately lying a lot closer to me and would press up against me intermittently and also ‘accidentally’ put her leg over mine a couple times.
I still have to push past my nervousness about escalating. Only had very little experience with that so far.
But I was also chatting it up with an HB8 at work. I always keep it positive. Make jokes and smile, but I don’t overplay my hand.
The confidence thing is tremendous for sure. I’m starting to see a little more clearly how it really is all in your head. We’re the ones doing it to ourselves.
Even considering them an HB10 IMO is a form of pedestalizing them. In my mind I’m narrowing it down to just girls that I would be interested in fucking. Could I see myself having a one night stand with them?
That opens up the pool a whole lot. And it levels the playing field. It takes HB10’s off the imaginary pedestal.
I didn’t feel any more nervous around that girl than I did around the obese one I hooked up with on New Year’s. To me that’s a huge sign of progress. Still have some wrinkles to iron out but I can feel the internal shift in perception.
Normally I would’ve just avoided that girl on the bed and been more or less silent the whole time. Seeing that she was pretty and I’d like to lie down next to her and also watch whatever movie was on, and just doing that nonchalantly seemed to work.
Confidence has a lot to do with self-respect and being grounded and centered in yourself, as far as I’ve learned so far.
January 7th, 2015 at 10:45 am
I became aware of this site and the manosphere a couple of months ago. It has already corrupted me.
Last night I got a hair cut. As I left the girl behind the register smiled at me and said, “have a nice night.” The first thing that popped into my head was, “what does she want from me?” I’m getting so cynical about women. (facepalm) But I know you guys are right. I should be that cynical.
January 7th, 2015 at 10:54 am
re: “As I left the girl behind the register smiled at me and said, “have a nice night.””
Raise your eyebrows at her and smirk , turn away as if to leave, touch yourself anywhere but your head (putting your money away is perfect), turn back squarely to her, tilt your head back (towards looking down your nose) and purr “I’m planning on it.” Then laugh.
January 7th, 2015 at 10:56 am
re: “what does she want from me?”
She *expects* irrational confidence from you and she cannot understand why you don’t exhibit it towards her. I’m talking to myself too.
January 7th, 2015 at 10:58 am
@Softek re: “To me that’s a huge sign of progress.”
To me too.
January 7th, 2015 at 11:09 am
game didn’t have Fallon banging Kidman
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qtsNbxgPngA
Game would have done it, but playing a video game got Kidman thinking he might be gay
January 7th, 2015 at 11:12 am
The broads’ expectations are getting to be a pain in the @$$. Causing confusion even when I give a clear “No Funny Business” signal.
January 7th, 2015 at 11:21 am
zd, cynicism is part of the journey, just don’t get stuck there. Eventually you just accept that most women see the world in different terms, and the cynicism departs.
if you can get to the point where you can accept them for what they are, lovely creatures who can give you laughs, limited love, pleasure and anxiety, you are golden.
January 7th, 2015 at 11:27 am
@tasdg, re: “a clear “No Funny Business” signal.”
Ok, I’ll bite. Describe said clear signal.
Also, please critique my virtual response at
http://therationalmale.com/2015/01/05/the-love-experience/comment-page-4/#comment-79420
and see if you can improve it.
January 7th, 2015 at 11:31 am
@nathan “I’m in my 20’s, master’s degree, in shape (cut, muscular, but not huge), 5’11”, professional job”
mentioning the degree and job is counter-productive, since a woman will want to put you in the beta provider pool to be used at a later date
this means you are competing based only on “in shape (cut, muscular, but not huge), 5’11”
suggest you take a course in Improv and ride a Harley
January 7th, 2015 at 11:36 am
@jf12
Because a second chance (or even third) at optimizing Hypergamy after a less than optimal consolidation fits our predominant feminine social narrative.
As I said:
The Cardinal Rule of sexual strategies:
For one gender’s sexual strategy to succeed the other gender must compromise or abandon their own.
This rule is enforced for feminine primacy on both the personal and social scale.
January 7th, 2015 at 11:41 am
@ redlight
Does it have to be a Harley? Could one get away with a BMW, or a Kawasaki?
January 7th, 2015 at 11:51 am
re: “Could one get away with a BMW, or a Kawasaki?”
Or even a bar stool. Ride it like you own it, manspread and all.
January 7th, 2015 at 11:57 am
So, are there any divorce movies at all in which
1) The man initiates the divorce to get rid of his lousy wife
2) The man gets attractive girlfriends almost immediately
?
January 7th, 2015 at 11:58 am
So, Society is THAT afraid of individual men’s sexual power?
January 7th, 2015 at 12:02 pm
@ badpainter
No man. I ride a razor scooter and I get mad pussy. This bitch jumped me the other day while I was riding around the block and stripped down to her panties and started grinding on the handlebars. Couldn’t control herself.
You can ride a motorcycle and not get pussy. I’ve seen it happen many times.
The clothing/hairstyle thing speaks volumes though. Is that changing our genetics? Nope. So that theory goes right out the window. Dress to impress. My sister, trying to be polite, didn’t tell me I looked like shit. But she would say that looks matter and how you present yourself and appear to people really influences their perception of you. Girls especially.
My friend said he used to dress like he thought he would if he was in the Rolling Stones. As far as having something to ‘back up the talk,’ I’m an amazing guitarist.
But not everyone knows that. I’m not playing out right now. All that does is help me with the confidence of dressing like a rock star. Because I could actually be one if I wanted to. I have my hair in a ’50s hairstyle like James Dean. I have a spit curl too and the girl I hooked up with at the party said I looked like Elvis. I wear a leather jacket and a couple really cool and flashy rings.
But that’s just what I like. It’s been a lot of fun for me to say “fuck everyone else” and just go for what I want to look like. What do I like? What works with my hair texture? What look do I want to go for?
That’s a lot of fun. And it’s built my confidence independently. Because now that’s a ‘thing’ for me — taking care of how I look. Paying attention to what I wear. Not being afraid to buy myself some nice clothes or shoes or accessories. I just see it as self-expression now.
I used to think that was “gay.” It took me a while to adjust to people telling me how good my hair looked. I thought it was “gay.” But in reality I looked like a homeless bum before and I acted like one with zero self confidence and being needy around everyone. No wonder no one wanted to be around me.
I like myself a lot more now. I’m just having fun with it. That’s authentic “confidence.” Impressing girls, even with the few I’ve impressed so far, seems to be a direct byproduct of just focusing on having more self-respect, more fun, and taking better care of myself.
I spent so much time playing videogames as a kid. You’d create a character and build their skills and customize them and all that. As an adult I just translate that to ‘real life.’ Pay attention to what I wear and what skills I build up, how I want to develop and re-create myself. It’s fun.
But yeah. Clothes. I think it’s really important to wear stuff that looks good but also that you like.
It took me some adjustment. I thought everything was “gay.” Probably because I had no self-respect and didn’t feel like I deserved to wear nice clothes. I never would’ve worn a leather jacket a year ago. It would’ve seemed ridiculous. Same with my hair. Or wearing rings. I felt so self conscious, what will people think, etc. And then I just decided, fuck it.
I think this stuff looks cool as hell and I want to make myself look like this.
Clothing has nothing to do with genetics…it’s all “Game.” Anyone can drastically improve their appearance, especially if they’re guys like I was that paid very little attention to it their whole lives. Get a good chunk of change and make yourself look better. Look the way you want.
For me I like going for the rock star look. I like wearing weird and interesting stuff that I never saw anyone else wear. Getting creative and really focusing on what you want to say about yourself with what you wear is a good way to indirectly separate yourself from the herd too.
I used to think of all this as “shallow”….now it’s just fun. I think of all the comics I read and movies and shows I watched growing up. Every character had something that defined them. They were a personality and they also had some kind of set wardrobe. It’s all fun.
January 7th, 2015 at 12:20 pm
@ jf12
Also, please critique my virtual response at
“Raise your eyebrows at her and smirk , turn away as if to leave, touch yourself anywhere but your head (putting your money away is perfect), turn back squarely to her, tilt your head back (towards looking down your nose) and purr “I’m planning on it.” Then laugh.”
Not sure why you have to back turn when you could just look and face away. The laugh at the end is try hard. Better is a smile of amused mastery and a quick eyebrow raise/lower. Instead of “I’m planning on it” say, “Ubetcha”. Less is more.
re: “a clear “No Funny Business” signal.”
Ok, I’ll bite. Describe said clear signal.
But will you spank, pull hair, and choke, too?
I gave my trademarked Chat: There are three possible responses to flirting with me: 1) ignore it and be boring and prudish, 2) consider it a comeon and expect fun and games, or 3) flirt back just for fun. The first two responses are out.
I gave the signal by describing how I had given another woman the Chat. I expected solipsism to kick in. Maybe a need for validation was driving things; the woman was older.
January 7th, 2015 at 12:24 pm
re: “Instead of “I’m planning on it” say, “Ubetcha”. Less is more.”
This is probably what I need to work on this year. I’m still a Chatty Cathy.
January 7th, 2015 at 12:24 pm
Interesting discussion but does it matter if a man understands the finer points of hypergammy or is it enough to know women fuck/ marry up and are on constant quest for the bigger, better deal?
So much of this seems like mental masterbation then useful intell
January 7th, 2015 at 12:33 pm
@jf12 “So, are there any divorce movies at all in which
1) The man initiates the divorce to get rid of his lousy wife
2) The man gets attractive girlfriends almost immediately”
The Hangover. Stu dumped his cheating shrew fiance after accidentally marrying Heather Graham, the hot single-mom stripper. Not real sure that qualifies.