TRP poster, needathrowawayplease from the Red Pill subreddit has a timely question / observation:
Knowing your SO’s menstrual cycle can be extremely powerful. [Indeed]
During the fertile stage of her cycle, thousands of years of evolution mean her body is screaming at her to get knocked up by an alpha male. A simple test to determine is she sees you as her alpha fucks is to not initiate during the fertile period of her cycle and observe her behavior: does she come to you to get fucked? Does her body language or physical behavior change when she’s fertile. Maybe she touches you more often or more intimately or plays the role of the seductress: things like coming to bed wearing lingerie where she usually wouldn’t? Even if she’s relatively low-sex drive and doesn’t initiate, does she at least respond more passionately to your sexual advances or orgasm more easily or intensely when she’s fertile?
You obviously can’t draw conclusions from a single cycle but you should eventually see a pattern – and the more she values you sexually during her fertile period the better. If she isn’t doing anything differently or reacting to you differently when she’s fertile, something’s up.
This test can have false negatives but not false positives. There’s no false positive case where she suddenly starts riding you while you’re watching the Packers game but she doesn’t see you as her alpha. But it can have false negatives where she doesn’t initiate but still sees you as her alpha. If she isn’t initiating when she’s fertile (and you aren’t initiating in order to test her reaction), it could be due to stress, lack of time, being too used to you doing the initiation, etc. But at the very least she should be demonstrating increased passion and sexual ecstasy during her fertile period.
At a high-level:
The best case: She initiates during her fertile period if you don’t. She gets cravings for your D.
The OK case: She responds more passionately and orgasms more easily during her fertile period.
The uh-oh, something might be wrong case: No observable change during her fertile period.
The beta case: Dead bedroom, what the fuck are you even doing (sorry if you got married and you can’t get out).
Of course if she’s an extremely sexual being and all of the above describes your sex life 24/7, then none of this should even concern you.
Disclaimer: Once again, this test is a tool that works best for women with higher sex drives (who really wanna get fucked when they’re fertile). If your 37 year old wife of 15 years fucks you when you want and isn’t cheating, you’re fine. I don’t think test applies to all women (LOL, broke /trp/ rules oops) but it’s useful nonetheless.
Lets presume for a moment that neither a controlled experiment nor an uncontrolled, but documented, correlatively scientific, sociological field study has ever been performed to test the principle of feminine Hypergamy. For a moment, as a man, imagine yourself living in a period of time prior to any formalized school of psychology; pre-turn of the 20th century. There is no Pavlov, there is no Skinner, there is no Freud.
Using only personal observations, observations of learned behaviors related by your father and brothers, male friends and the intergender experiences of a very socially isolated (by today’s standards) group of people who make up your peers, and a restrictively limited access to any classic philosophical literature beyond the Judeo-Christian Bible – what would you presume would be the nature inimical to women and the feminine?
Would your observations, intuition and the education proffered by your father, brothers and other influential male friends and relations lead to an insight to know what Hypergamy is, how it motivates women and how to control for, or capitalize on it?
Not only do I believe it would, but I would argue that, up until the sexual revolution and the past 60 or so years, men have had an innate and learned understanding of Hypergamy, how it functions, and how to control for it.
To be sure, it didn’t have the formal name of ‘Hypergamy’ – in fact that term was until recently, strictly defined and reserved for “women with the tendency to marry above their socioeconomic level” in polite, pop-psychology circles – but men knew Hypergamy before the manopshere (re)exposed its true definition.
Waging Hypergamy
Resistance to the uncomfortable truths innate to the female experience is to be expected from women – until the advent of Open Hypergamy, the Feminine Imperative needed the sisterhood to be united and its secrets jealously guarded to the point of cognitive dissonance.
My guess is that most of my female critics would still agree with the basic parameters of Hypergamy, but what I doubt they’re aware of is that in denying the inherent biological nature of female Hypergamy women must also reject the sociological, psychological and (observably) behavioral aspects of Hypergamy inherent (and largely subconscious) in women.
Commenter Mookie:
“As women approach the Epiphany Phase (later the Wall) and realize the decay of their SMV (in comparison to younger women), they become progressively more incentivized towards attraction to the qualities a man possesses that will best satisfy the long-term security of the Beta Bucks side of her Hypergamy demands.”
Did your woman say, “you’re (so much) different than the guys I used to date.” Or, “I finally got smart and found a good guy.” If so, this is clear evidence that you are her Beta Bucks guy. Maybe she used to date DJs, NFL players, drug dealers, whatever. If these guys are different types of guys than you, do NOT continue the relationship. She has no clue, but she is rationalizing her choice in her mind. You will pay a severe price later, as in cheating, nonstop bitchiness, or sudden divorce. Find a girl that always dated guys like you. She may have swooned for the lead guitarist, but if she didn’t devote her early 20s to chasing him, you’re okay.
Beta Tells
One of the more common questions I’m asked in consults is whether something a guy did was ‘Beta’ or not. Usually it was a situation wherein the guy was instinctually sensitive to his own behavior in context to his Frame and how the woman he was dealing with perceived him. In most cases a man knows when he’s slipped in his perception of dominance with a woman, they just look for a third party confirmation of it – which is then followed by more rationalizations for why his behavior shouldn’t be considered Beta because they believe women are equally rational, equally forgiving, agents as men (really he is) are.
From Gut Check:
Whenever you feel something isn’t quite right in your gut, what this is is your subconscious awareness alerting you to inconsistencies going on around you. We tend to ignore these signs in the thinking that our rational mind ‘knows better’ and things really aren’t what they seem. It’s not as bad as you’re imagining, and you can even feel shame or guilt with yourself for acknowledging that lack of trust. However, it’s just this internal rationalization that keeps us blind to the obvious that our subconscious is trying to warn us about. Humans are creatures of habit with an insatiable need to see familiarity in other people’s actions. So when that predictable behavior changes even marginally, our instinctual perceptions fire off all kinds of warnings. Some of which can actually effect us physically.
It’s at this point most guys make the mistake of acting on the “good communication solves everything” feminized meme and go the full disclosure truth route, which only really leads to more rationalizations and repression of what’s really going on. What they don’t realize is that the MEDIUM is the message; her behavior, her nuances, the incongruousness in her words and demeanor (and how your gut perceives them) is the real message. There is an irregularity in her behavior that your subconscious is alerting you to which your consciousness either cannot or will not recognize.
I began the Alpha Tells post with the intent of recognizing how a woman behaves when she’s in the presence of a Man she perceives to be Alpha. A lot of men get hung up on trying to ‘act’ Alpha; wanting to ape (and hopefully internalize) the behavioral tells a more confident Alpha displays.
Consequently there’s a lot of debate about how men posture and how they naturally display these Alpha cues, but I think the best gauge of what defines those cues is not in men’s displays, but women’s behaviors and attitudes that are prompted by a perception of Alpha-ness.
And just as women will respond viscerally to an Alpha perception, they will also manifest behaviors which indicate her subconscious knows she’s dealing with a Beta aligned male.
It’s easy to pick apart what a guy thinks are his own Alpha tells, but it’s far more uncomfortable to dissect women’s Beta tells when they’re in the presence of men they perceive to be Beta. Much of what I’ll outline that follows will be hard to read for many guys, and as always you’re free to disagree.
My purpose here isn’t to bash Betas, rather it’s to increase awareness of women’s behaviors toward them. As I’ve explained above, try to put these behaviors into a Hypergamous context and how they would be perceived by women who’ve evolved to have an instinctual sensitivity to these Beta behaviors, as well as expressions of Beta attitudes in your words and emotional emphasis.
I could very easily compile a list of behaviors that are simply the reverse of the Alpha Tells I noted in the previous post, but it’s much more important to address the root reasons for these Beta Tells:
- Does she initiate sex or affection spontaneously?
- Does she entertain a large pool of “male friend” orbiters with the expectation of you being ‘mature enough’ to accept it?
- Does she keep a core peer group of ‘girlfriends’ she insists on prioritizing over being with you? Frequent GNOs?
- Has she explained to you how she was so different in college and how she’s glad those days are behind her now?
- Is she experiencing her Epiphany Phase?
- Does she cite “mismatched libidos” as a reason for her lack of sexual interest in you now that you’re married or living together (even after she’s had better sex with you or a former lover when single)?
- Is she averse or repulsed by your ejaculate being on her skin, in her mouth or overly concerned with soiling a bed sheet?
- Will she have sex with you anywhere besides the bed?
- Do you perform oral on her to get her off more than you have intercourse?
- Is she a wide-eyed lover or does she squint her eyes closed while having sex? Is sex a chore for her to perform?
- If you’re married, did she assume your last name, or did she insist on a hyphenated surname for herself?
- When you’re together does her regular, unpracticed body posture indicate an openness or are you always having to break into her intimate space?
- Is she preoccupied with her side of the family or a certain pet in preference to being concerned with your well-being?
- Is she consciously aware of being 1-2 points above your own relative SMV? Is she overt about it?
- Does she presume authority in your relationship? Do you accede this authority as a matter of (equalist) belief?
There are many more tells of course, and I hope more will be presented in the commentary, but it’s important to understand that these behaviors and attitudes are manifestations of a woman who on some level of consciousness understands that she’s dealing with a Beta man.
I should also mention that, as with Stephen’s case in Moments of Clarity, there are particular phases of a woman’s life when she becomes more attuned to dealing with Beta men due to perceived necessities on her part. A clear understanding of how these phases predispose women to convince themselves to be more accepting of Beta behaviors and a Beta mindset is imperative to avoiding the common pitfalls men encounter with regard to issues of Frame in their relationships.
Beta men are all too eager to believe they’ve matured into being a self-defined Alpha when a semi-attractive 29 year old in the midst of her Epiphany Phase is giving him wide-eyed indicators of interest in him. Only after she’s consolidated on that long-term security does he realize the plans her sexual strategy had for him.
Predisposition for Mate Guarding
One of the best Beta tells is how defensive a guy gets about the subject of mate guarding.
An Alpha has little preoccupation with mate guarding because subconsciously he knows he has sexual options. That applies both within and without monogamy. I’m presenting this here because the majority of what motivates Beta tells (and really a Beta mindset) is rooted in how men deal with a scarcity mentality. Beta tells are almost always indicators that a man believes he needs to guard his paired woman and thus telegraphs a Beta status to that woman as well as other women in her peer clutch.
Mate guarding, and its intrinsic set of subconscious suspicions and behaviors, is an evolved adaptation of ensuring paternity for a Beta-provider. These men must rely upon exchanging resources and external benefits for women’s sexual fidelity. In essence, it’s an unspoken awareness that Beta men must negotiate for what they hope will be a woman’s genuine desire in exchange for his provisioning, parental investment support and emotional involvement.
Beta men are aware on on a limbic level that Hypergamy dictates an Alpha Fucks / Beta Bucks trade-off in women’s sexual strategy – thus a subconscious ‘mate guarding’ mindset evolved from Beta men’s heightened awareness of women’s preference for Alpha Fucks particularly around the proliferative phase time of women’s ovulation.
Paradoxically, the best assurance you have of fidelity with a woman is simply not to allow yourself to become exclusively monogamous with a woman and rather, have her make the efforts to pair with you under her own auspices you being Alpha. Romance is not required from a lover a woman perceives as Alpha, only his sexual interest – this represents a confirmation of Hypergamous optimization for a woman. The fuck-buddy dynamic – all sexual interests with no reciprocal expectation of emotional investment – is a strong Alpha tell for a man.
The best gauge for determining a woman’s perception of you as either an Alpha or Beta type is examining yourself and your feeling a ‘need’ to mate guard her, to appease her, or an impulse to correct yourself in order to align with her terms for intimacy. A scarcity mentality is the mental point of origin for a Beta mindset – and that internalized mental model will manifest itself in a predisposition for Beta behaviors.
There’s a common belief that even the most Alpha of men will at times slip into a Beta behaviorism. You can’t be ‘on’ your game all of the time, and while that’s true it doesn’t invalidate that women have a mental model of your overall, predominant condition being either Alpha or Beta. A predominantly Alpha frame and mindset (and yes, looks), plus an acknowledged (real or perceived) SMV primacy will cover a multitude of Beta sins, but the predominant Beta has the sisyphean task of convincing a woman he’s more Alpha than she pegs him for.
So to answer the man asking whether or not something he did was Beta, your answer really lies in your motivation for behaving ‘Beta’ as you did in comparison to how a woman perceives your predominant character.
November 13th, 2014 at 1:15 am
stuttie – “If she is the one initiating the PDA then she perceives you as Alpha and of high value.”
Again context. If she’s showing the PDA and later there is sex then that may well be an Alpha tell. But if the PDA is followed by sexual rejection she is burnishing her pubic image so everyone thinks she has an Alpha when really she probably has a Beta. Nothing is worse than a girlfriend who sells herself as your slut in public and is a nun in private.
November 13th, 2014 at 2:47 am
RE: http://therationalmale.com/2014/11/11/beta-tells/#comment-67659
Softek, that was brilliant. That’s Guest Post quality – which Rollo doesn’t do much, but the remaining team at JustFourGuys.com would love it, I bet.
November 13th, 2014 at 3:04 am
Is this guy alpha or beta? (Dr Phil show.) Any thoughts on this?
November 13th, 2014 at 6:03 am
Stuttie:
“If she is the one initiating the PDA then she perceives you as Alpha and of high value.”
Or – depending on case – she’s blowing (a pun, yes) smoke in her providership locking phase to give an impression of him being the Great Catch and to convince herself of that too. Kind of beta orbiter cheek kiss and giggles. After all, she’s soo past those sculpted guys with foot-long dicks. Heh.
Sh*t. Already third comment in a loong time. Back to lurk.
November 13th, 2014 at 7:08 am
“The fuck-buddy dynamic – all sexual interests with no reciprocal expectation of emotional investment – is a strong Alpha tell for a man.”
So … showing zero interest in longterm servitude is seen as alpha. This is why mgtow works. Telling a woman on a first date that you will never be married, never have kids and never live with a woman can get fantastic results. Sounds crazy? Try it.
November 13th, 2014 at 9:01 am
btw yes the verbally and emotionally and physically abusive wife-beater Dr. Phil is quite alpha. Women stand in line to service him and make sure he isn’t displeased.
November 13th, 2014 at 9:25 am
Adam, interesting video.
Whether he’s exhibiting alpha or beta is less important than that he is has established a solid foundation for effective dread game. His hot wife’s hypergamy has been stone-cold slammed down to the hard concrete and as long as there’s enough bux for the family, his marriage will last as long as HE wants it. An inordinate amount of pressure is on her to keep fit and to keep the sex flowing, otherwise, well, he makes it clear. Turn about is fair play.
Few of us have the motivation (or interest) to take it to this degree, but good luck to him I say! If most men achieved 10% of what he has, it ought to be plenty sufficient to run a good game of dread.
In my case, 20 years ago I reduced my BMI from 27 to 21. I got braces and whitening for my crooked yellow teeth, LASIK for my -10D myopia, and regularly saw a dermatologist. I bought a weight machine that I still use (lightly) daily and still run a minimum of 30 miles a week on the beach near my home. I am not a even shadow of the physical specimen shown in the video, but I am enough to DEMAND that my wife keep herself in the best shape her age will permit and through (soft) dread continue to keep her focused on the aspects of our marriage that are still important to ME.
So I guess I’d have to say in retrospect that the guy in the video is alpha and that any aversion I might feel about the way he dotes on his appearance is a vestige of my blue pill conditioning. I was interesting how Dr Phil attempted to shame him and how the audience played along. I hope he gets his laser hair removal….
November 13th, 2014 at 9:47 am
Maybe another beta tell is:
“Does she demand to be in a one-way open relationship with you (where she sees other men, yet you are monogamous with her)?”
Interesting on the open hypergamy/cuckolding angle, came across by following a throwaway “gossipy” link to “celebs in open relationships” on the Blaze earlier today:
Megan Fox and Brian Austin Green: Megan Fox and Brian Austin Green have a half-open relationship. This means that Megan is free to date other men, while Brian must remain exclusive to Megan.
http://www.answers.com/article/1213217/9-celebs-you-never-knew-were-in-open-relationships?param4=tb-us-de-enter#slide=2
November 13th, 2014 at 9:58 am
“Softek, that was brilliant”
Softek, please post on reddit so we can upvote this amazing exposition
November 13th, 2014 at 10:00 am
The whole “beta tell” thing is important because one of the first things a man has to do when self-improving is to stop doing the things that drag down his value.
If a man notices a beta tell about himself, he needs to stop doing those things. Stopping beta behaviors is one of the first, and easiest, things he can do.
November 13th, 2014 at 10:49 am
beta tell: gifts to you have little thought to them
November 13th, 2014 at 11:42 am
“Megan Fox and Brian Austin Green have a half-open relationship . . .”
Of all the things which hypergamy doesn’t care about, reciprocity is at the top of the list.
November 13th, 2014 at 2:36 pm
Nothing about women should be taken seriously. Any one of us, if we are reasonably fit and not deformed or obviously mentally ill, are capable of developing rewarding relationships with a number of women. There is no reason to get all nutted up. Many women can serve your needs and variety is the spice of life.
Much of what Rollo writes is excellent in that he is able to disect and realistically illustrate the details and dynamics of what mostly is really nothing more than a “paper tiger”. The FI has control over you only to the extent that you permit. We are all prone to some insecurity and desire predictable circumstances but life is unpredictable and security is only an illusion. Living is inherently a state of insecurity and freedom is not possible without this dynamic. We are all individual and therefore cannot truly carry each other’s loads in life. We can however communicate and cooperate to some extent and thereby help one another. This is what Rollo seems to be doing a very good job with.
However, as with most endeavors such as this, there is a tendency for groups (such as the manossphere) to morph into just another cult type phenomenon with false paradigms and absolutisms. There is the danger of just becoming yet another “barrel of crabs” so to speak.
True freedom is experienced when nothing really matters and if you stop, sit back and think about it, nothing really does matter. We are all born and die individually and with nothing. Life is a dance of sorts. This awareness is similar to the state of Zen in Buddhism. I am not a Buddhist, just using it as a reference. It is interesting to note however that Rollo referenced Cory Worthington as an alpha “budda”. I suspect this is basically what Rollo was getting at. Happiness and the natural freedom to live with confidence to exercise free will (with women and other life concerns) occurs more enjoyably when we are not controlled by powers not our own. We sometimes make the mistake of giving up our own power with no good reason to.
November 13th, 2014 at 3:34 pm
@adam man
Michael in the video is “beta”. His life situation defines it. He maintained a nervous smile subjugating himself throughout the interview. Why would a 21 year old athletic and reasonably attractive male marry a woman ten years older than himself? He could have spent the last ten years of his life experiencing other women, learning and enjoying life a lot more. He openly admits he is not optimally attracted to his wife’s ass. Why the fuck did he marry her? He is now trapped by marriage and children at a time when he should be optimizing his opportunities. It is a shame because no matter how alpha he tries to become through his body building and no matter what he does there will be long term negative consequences and regrets. This is an example of how physical development alone does not guarantee “alpha”. He is now living with the consequence of bad choices he made ten years previous and it will follow him for most of his life. Dr. Phil-O-Shit is spewing out the male shaming trope he typically does. Phil-O-Shit should be discussing the fundamental problem of why Michael got into his mess In the first place. Instead he follows the popular bullshit of vilifying a man for the natural urge to express himself in the prime of life.
November 13th, 2014 at 3:59 pm
George, I get your point. He is a situational beta and there is nothing consequence-free to get him out of it. OTOH, he’s making the best of his bad situation by not buckling under to the expectations of Dr Phil and the rest of the feminine imperative. If / when she throws him over, he can hit the ground running…..
November 13th, 2014 at 4:01 pm
It is really funny to see the comments here regarding this Michael bodybuilder on Dr. Phil.
Do you truly believe that he experiences right now in his life more Beta tells or more Alpha tells moments?
The truth of the matter is that in the past many men in previous generations shifted from more Beta state as a youth to an Alpha state as they became fathers, more accomplished and more experienced. When they hit their end 20s or 30s they were different men than they were as an 18yo.
Michael is one such blue-pill indoctrinated men who is obviously financially successful and feels better about his sexual market value than ever before. He is a man who at age 31 feels as if he had cashed in his chips long before the big jackpot. As his wife is 41 and only wishes for him to remain in a safe relationship for her, he feels that he misses out on life as I am sure 18-22 year old hotties give him plenty of attention.
Never mind his insecurities or his Blue PIll perception and shitty life decisions – he is simply way higher in SMV than his wife and his wife knows it. She wishes for Dr. Phil to start serving her wishes and he hardly does. Thus by sheer default of his SMV – he is at least a lesser Alpha. If he hits on girls similar as on the show, he is likely getting some pussy on the side. And even that is no deal-breaker for his wife. In addition to that he spends an enormous amount of time in the gym and tending to his body contrary to his wife’s wishes. He does not adhere to her whims and desires.
As far as his marriage is concerned, the wife is more anxious for him leaving her than he is concerned about her leaving him. And guess who will fare better after the divorce? Clearly more Alpha tells than Beta tells unless he is a total wuss in private around his wife, but it frankly does not look like that – I see fear in his wife’s eyes and body language.
November 13th, 2014 at 4:05 pm
True and if I were in his shoes, I would desperately want out. She is a scarecrow. Horrible for the kids though, regrets for the rest of life.
November 13th, 2014 at 4:09 pm
Just agreeing to appear on Dr. Phil-O-Shit is a massive beta tell.
November 13th, 2014 at 4:10 pm
Also one other note – we really have to differentiate here between Blue Pill Alphas, Red Pill Alphas or Red Pill Betas. Accepting the Red Pill does not make you Alpha by default, though you can more strongly work on it. I also knew as likely many of you too some Blue Pill situational Alphas who later in life due to constant indoctrination, marriage to a bitching wife and lack of success became Blue Pill Betas. Men can shift from one state to the other over decades quite naturally. Of course if you add the Red PIll consciousness to it, then the likelihood is lower since you simply know what is happening and can counter that, but in the example of this Michael character on Dr. Phil – the Blue Pill mindset and constant barrage in media and academia can make you seem as if it is the only right way to look at life. Just try to find a Red Pill TV series or movie in the sea of feminine imperative crap out there. Guess what would happen to that guy if he ever comes upon sites like these and accepts them?
November 13th, 2014 at 4:18 pm
@ Joe and redlight
Thank you. I don’t know what reddit is and I don’t have an account on it, but if anyone wants to share it there for me, copy and paste away.
November 13th, 2014 at 4:31 pm
Michael the bodybuilder is a living example of passive ‘soft’ dread. He doesn’t have a need to use it overtly because the SMV difference between he and the wife is self-evident. Combine that with the unarguable social proof he experiences every day from other women and you can understand the real definition of ‘competition anxiety’ that his wife is feeling.
Just sitting in the chair he inspires dread in her, so she implores Dr. Phil to convince him with emasculating shame that he has a moral obligation to self-depreciating his own SMV and allay her natural dread.
Dr. Phil believes the feminine-primary lie that a guy like him has the capacity to AMOG Michael through an equalist mindset, but the real evidence is staring him in the face.
November 13th, 2014 at 4:36 pm
I think we are agreeing that looking like an alpha is not an alpha tell. It is behavior that counts, specifically sex-differentiated intra-sexual behavior, specifically females treating the male as if he were an alpha, that makes him alpha.
Question, though, somewhat personal. Is the ability to be a strong persuader an alpha tell? Or, is the necessity to be a strong persuader a beta tell? Does an alpha really need to persuade, to be good at persuading?
My strong suit has always been verbal. I’m quite entertaining in person, believe it or not, so much so that I’m *expected* (especially by women) to be entertaining. This entertaining did not produce attraction, evidently, until it involved sexualization.
So my related question is do alphas even bother entertaining, or do women entertain alphas instead? I’ve never had the experience of a woman wanting to entertain me, so I’m asking. I presume some females (somewhere, like on a remote island) are able to muster some entertainment value for some male (Ann Darrow for King Kong), instead of demanding the male be entertaining. Yes, I’m probably in Dancing Monkey Hate foul territory with this question, but I’m asking anyway.
November 13th, 2014 at 4:58 pm
An Alpha Tell behavior from a woman doesn’t “make” a guy Alpha. It only indicates how a woman behaviorally responds around a man she perceives as Alpha.
http://therationalmale.com/2012/05/23/perceptions/
November 13th, 2014 at 5:43 pm
re: “An Alpha Tell behavior from a woman doesn’t “make” a guy Alpha.”
Her consistent Alpha Tell behavior makes him Alpha to her. Consistent Alpha Tells from lots of women make him Alpha.
November 13th, 2014 at 5:52 pm
A definite beta tell is a man trying to comfort women by saying he’s lost a lot of libido and doesn’t want as much sex anymore. He’d still prefer sex “maybe like once a week”, which is “more than I’m getting it”. And his wife is adamantly against even once a week, since he “knows better” than to raise the issue with her.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-lesser/you-dont-have-to-have-sex-with-your-husband-every-night_b_6154168.html
The life of betas is made a living hell by women, deliberately. Since the only reason betas put up with it is the promise of sex, as soon as the promise of sex is withdrawn the betas should leave the relationship.
November 13th, 2014 at 5:59 pm
Is this guy Alpha?
November 13th, 2014 at 6:13 pm
“I think we are agreeing that looking like an alpha is not an alpha tell. It is behavior that counts, specifically sex-differentiated intra-sexual behavior, specifically females treating the male as if he were an alpha, that makes him alpha.”
I don’t think so.
I believe that behavior can seal the deal but where most of the importance lies is in the look. This is because looks not only get you in the door but they also widen your initial mating/dating pool. This is truer for the younger crowd. Girls respond the same way to a tall, handsome guy, as a man responds to an ideally proportionate and pretty girl. They both feel that surge of attraction instantly. This is something that behavior can’t inspire. Behavior can solidify and sustain her attraction but I really don’t think it can inspire it (again, completely by itself).
This all corresponds to hypergamy, when you really think about it. It makes complete sense that girls are way more judgmental to guys from a behavioral and physical aspect. She’s fine-tuned to be so. I remember a commentator here saying that women are machines in search of good genes, and that rings true based on my experiences.
November 13th, 2014 at 6:15 pm
Cannot tell for sure. The staged performance proves nothing. However, that masquerade could be affective….
November 13th, 2014 at 6:23 pm
Women are broken machines, and easily deceived. From the “Perceptions” post:
“It’s a scary thought to consider how easy it is to sway the hearts and minds of most women simply with imagery over substance.”
re: fake celebrity prank. Yes, he’s alpha exactly to the extent that women are treating him like he’s alpha: to the extent that women want to be pleasing to him. Some of the women do seem to carefully watch him and try to do what he (and his entourage) wants to do. But at least several of the women, for example, aren’t taking pictures of *him*, but are more interested in taking pictures of themselves *with* him, i.e. he is pleasing the women with his (supposed) celebrity.
November 13th, 2014 at 6:40 pm
Situational alpha, fleeting at best. Funny as a prank, pathetic otherwise. The gullibility of the bystanders is breathtaking. Perhaps analogous to, albeit more effective than, a PUA wanna-be spouting random memorized pick up lines.
November 13th, 2014 at 6:41 pm
hot off the press
Gallup GG Jr, Ampel BC, Wedberg N, Pogosjan A. 2014.Do orgasms give women feedback about mate choice? Evol Psychol 12(5):958-978.
http://www.epjournal.net/wp-content/uploads/EP12958978.pdf
According to self-ratings by college girls in “committed relationships”, sluttier girls who have had a lot of sexual partners have better orgasms. Also, girls who snagged a raised-rich, attractive, and broad-shouldered (main …) boyfriend have better orgasms. Girls also lie about initiating sex with entertaining men.
November 13th, 2014 at 6:49 pm
@ deti
Beta tells:
Her emotional state governs his emotional state and the overall tenor and course of the relationship.
He is consistently attempting to discern her emotional state.
When she is in a “bad” emotional state, he consistently attempts to corral and redirect her into a “good” emotional state.
First one, I agree. 2nd one, it depends. If he is a machiavel, then it is alpha. If he seeks to supplicate, then he is beta. Third one, again, it depends. If he seeks to corral and make her happy by adopting her frame, then he is beta. If he seeks to meet her emotional needs through physiological and psychological manipulation while maintaining his frame, then he is alpha.
November 13th, 2014 at 6:52 pm
Sperm Competition in Humans: Mate Guarding Behavior Negatively Correlates with Ejaculate Quality
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0108099
November 13th, 2014 at 6:53 pm
A definite beta tell: believing women when they say they initiate sex with men who are amusing.
November 13th, 2014 at 6:59 pm
re: sperm competition article. Believable hypothesis, but the r-squareds are awful. If I’m reading correctly, the blobby scatter of Figure 1 has R2 = .072,and Fig 2 has R2 = .119.
November 13th, 2014 at 7:04 pm
@Softek nailed it. At its core, the red pill is about owning your shit, self improvement, and frame.
If you want a definition for ‘alpha’, you don’t have to look any further than Frame.
November 13th, 2014 at 7:06 pm
Funny example with the fake celebrity situational Alpha status.
In my opinion – though we comply the Alpha state only in the inter-sexual viewpoint – there are 4 major points of Alpha – and all have to be checked:
1. Being Alpha in his dealings with men (many guys manage that not being doormats or complete wallflowers)
2. Being Alpha in job – again quite a few successful guys manage that
3. Being Alpha in short-term mating – here sometimes having very good looks, fame or local higher status is sufficient to get laid 100 times more than the best PUA Alpha
4. Being Alpha in a LTR with every woman and with your family / children – this is the area in which most guys fail – even men who have mad fortunes and are attractive enough to pull quality women all the time
In my own environment I have 2 stark examples of this:
One is a friend of mine who is 6ft, model looks, super-successful in a corporate job and married to a stay-at-home wife with a small kid (no reason to work for her due to his high income). He fulfills points 1-3 easily, but miserably fails at point 4 as his dominant wife rules him with an iron fist at home. Only getting to know him completely makes you realize that he is a Greater Beta – no danger of divorce on the side of his wife of course, since his SMV is several points above hers.
The other example is a distant cousin who is only 5ft, overweight, moderately successful – also married with a teenage son and a stay-at-home wife. That guy checks all 4 points on the Alpha scale. Sure – he would have to lose weight if he wanted to increase his short-term mating success, but before marriage he was able to attract plenty of women because he is good-looking enough and has charisma and great humor. Now the biggest Alpha tell is in his marriage – he is the master and commander of his home. Even unruly teenage friends of his son and nephews immediately behave like angels when visiting. It is truly a sight to behold how a 5ft guy commands so much respect and presence. Verdict: pure Alpha state despite being way lower in SMV than the first friend in my example.
November 13th, 2014 at 7:09 pm
RE: Women’s orgasms:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/199601/the-orgasm-wars
o A woman’s capacity for orgasm depends not on her partner’s sexual skill but on her subconscious evaluation of his genetic merits.
o Women’s orgasm has little to do with love. Or experience.
o Good men are indeed hard to find.
o The men with the best genes make the worst mates.
o Women are no more built for monogamy than men are. They are designed to keep their options open.
o Women fake orgasm to divert a partner’s attention from their infidelities.
November 13th, 2014 at 8:12 pm
Women don’t bother faking with betas because women don’t care how betas feel; women fake orgasms in order to please men, to try to kep the man around.
November 13th, 2014 at 9:02 pm
” A woman’s capacity for orgasm depends not on her partner’s sexual skill but on her subconscious evaluation of his genetic merits.”
Beta Tell:
When a man jumps through hoops to make women orgasm so that he can fool himself into believing he is Alpha.
November 13th, 2014 at 9:35 pm
Having said that, it is also possible that skill at making a woman orgasm might affect her brain into seeing a man as more alpha (sexually desirable) than she would otherwise. There is a phenomenon in psychology where engaging in behaviors associated with a mental state tends to elicit that mental state. The brain prefers congruency.
November 13th, 2014 at 9:36 pm
From:
Do Orgasms Give Women Feedback About Mate Choice?
“Their partner’s sense of humor not only predicted
his self-confidence and family income, but it also predicted women’s propensity to initiate sex, how often they had sex, and it enhanced their orgasm frequency in comparison with other partners.”
Sounds like another data point contradicting Siirtyrion’s thesis that a man’s behavior has no influence on how sexually attractive a woman finds him.
November 13th, 2014 at 9:45 pm
@jacklabear re: “it is also possible that skill at making a woman orgasm might affect her brain into seeing a man as more alpha (sexually desirable) than she would otherwise. There is a phenomenon in psychology where engaging in behaviors associated with a mental state tends to elicit that mental state.”
The Pavlovian phenomenon included. I’m certain when my wife thinks of sex she *ought* to think of me, but I’m certain when my wife thinks of me she doesn’t think of sex. Moreover, since sex is a service I do for her instead of her doing for me, a man’s “skill at making a woman orgasm” is necessarily beta.
The alpha version would be her making herself orgasm on him.
November 13th, 2014 at 10:19 pm
I’ve long disagreed with your idea that mate guarding is the exclusive domain of betas.
And now you seem to be saying that all men who women treat as alphas restrict themselves to fuck buddy relationships.
A man who his woman treats as alpha, according to all your tells listed above, can also benefit himself and his long term relationship, by mate guarding. Men in such situations routinely do. We just need to glance around us for endless examples of this.
My own life is a reflection of this; many of my girlfriends offer blowjobs in taxicabs and treat me like a walking god, but I’m still not so stupid to think that I’m the ONLY walking god on this earth, and that the love bubble extends out into all time and space forever.
And you don’t seem to be able to imagine the idea that the very fact of ownership itself IS an alpha move. The man OWNS his woman. That ownership itself invokes and creates attraction from the girl. Girls not only test boundaries, they WANT the boudaries enforced. They want to be owned.
If a man in an LTR doesn’t even want to own his woman, that’s the beta tell.
November 13th, 2014 at 10:23 pm
And we can look to alpha primates as examples. Does the alpha troupe leader ape mate guard? Yes, ferociously.
Do the women fuck him more for successfully mate guarding? Yes.
Mate guarding is not only required of his job position, in itself it helps to create that very job position.
November 13th, 2014 at 10:36 pm
@xsplat
Excellent comment. True, any man who thinks he is “so alpha” he doesn’t need to mate guard is fooling no one but himself. Such thoughts are the hopes of beta fantasy.
November 13th, 2014 at 10:37 pm
I few months ago an aquaintance of a friend invited me to join the local group of expats on the monthly hash house harrier mountain hike. His girlfriend picked me up for the drive.
During the afterparty his girlfriend kept hanging out by my side, flirting with me. She’d put peanuts in my shirt pocket and accidentally stimulate my nipples while looking me in the eyes. She invited me to stay the night at the mountain cabin they rented. I later found out her boyfriend and a few other women would be there.
At one point in the early evening we both went up to her cabin – with some excuse about me needing a piss. When he discovered us alone together he was rightfully pissed off. But later in the evening he kept going on about how he didn’t mate guard at all, because it was pointless, women are just going to do whatever they are going to do, and there was nothing he could do about it.
He asked my opinion on the subject I was forthright that I’m a very jealous man and that while it’s not always easy or even successful, I try to keep all of my girlfriends faithful, to the best of my ability.
That guys attitude was the beta attitude.
His girl flirting outrageously and openly with me all night was also his beta tell.
NOT mate guarding was his beta move.
Sure, if you don’t even have to bother, then don’t. But no man, and I mean NO man, is forever in a position of not even having to bother. There WILL be situations where the man has to bother. For ANY man. No matter his SMV position.
November 13th, 2014 at 10:51 pm
And recently you were saying or implying that working to overcome last minute resistance was also a sign that the man isn’t alpha enough, because a real alpha would have such a powerful voodoo sex ray emanating from his aura that the women wouldn’t put up any resistance to begin with.
That’s again a conflation of notions. A mans alphatude is also expressed through his charisma and charm. His dominance and will. A man who knows what he wants and knows how to get it is displaying an alpha attitude that in itself will get the woman wet and turned on, even if he is ugly.
You can’t conflate physical attractiveness with being an alpha. Sometimes ugly guys have effective charm, and a HUGELY important facet of that charm is being able to escalate past a womans stated boundaries.
It is absolutely an essential skill.
We aren’t all alphas by virtue of being handsome young guitar players, and you can’t take the life lessons you learned at that phase of your life and try to paint them all over everything else.
Alpha is not a demographic.
Instant attraction does not make alpha.
Escalation in the face of what appears to the novice as resistance is a HUGE part of what makes the man attractive.
November 13th, 2014 at 11:21 pm
Also the picture you have lately been painting of alpha fucks beta bucks has had the contrast turned up to 100, and you seem to have lost track of all the nuance.
A man who women treat as alpha according to all your correct tells can and very often does use all means possible to maintain his position.
Some of those Machiavellian means include controlling finances. Women love opportunistically. Being the best opportunity in all ways, including financial, helps to create love in his woman.
November 13th, 2014 at 11:38 pm
@ Tinder the Troll
I believe that behavior can seal the deal but where most of the importance lies is in the look.
Codswallop. Women respond primarily to confidence. Looks may attract initially, but confidence is where it’s at. My nephew is far better looking than I am, but he’s beta and was worried about me dancing with his wife.
Tinder favors looks, but even on Tinder confidence can show thru.
November 13th, 2014 at 11:44 pm
@ Rollo
Women fake orgasm to divert a partner’s attention from their infidelities.
Why? I don’t understand this.
November 13th, 2014 at 11:48 pm
@ xplat
If a woman mate-guards herself in order to commit to you, then you’re alpha. If you have to spend a lot of energy mate-guarding, then you’re beta.
November 14th, 2014 at 12:38 am
If women fake orgasm to retain Alphas isn’t also likely they’d fake orgasm to secure a Beta during the ephiphany phase?
November 14th, 2014 at 12:47 am
@ xsplat – have to agree with theasdgamer on mate-guarding. I honestly can’t see how any form of mate-guarding comes across as anything other than beta. Silverback gorillas have a male hierarchy where the female initiates the mating with the dominant Silverback (Alpha). The females actually compete for mating opportunities. He rarely, if ever, mate-guards the females.
November 14th, 2014 at 1:32 am
Alpha/beta becomes such a conceptual problem because it performs as some type of Rorschach test in which men see and project onto it what they want to. While I understand the need for the concept in order to discuss red pill ideas, I just don’t think its very useful in this context of finding out where you stand. The fact of the matter is if you use womens reactions to you and their behaviors as a measure of your value, you will, eventually, become dependent on their estimation.
I get that that is not what we’re trying to use the concept for, but it is the danger and in the end it seems we are all looking at the women to determine what is what. I also get that alpha/beta terminology is necessary and beneficial when it comes to deciding what is happening in your relationships with women, I’m just not sure it works as well in that context.
I am becoming more and more convinced that the best way is alpha up is by not aiming for it directly. Very much like happiness, which has been proven to be elusive for people searching directly for it, but comes more as a result of focusing on things other than happiness for it to materialize.
I’ve been thinking and working on the boundaries and expectations. Simply put, decide what you expect, decide what you are willing to give in exchange, and here is the key part.. never compromise it.
I think focusing on those things will bear much more fruit than trying to be alpha or faking it till you make it, etc.
So, for example, I expect a woman to regularly and willingly have sex with me, I expect her to behave in a feminine and pleasant manner, I expect her to prioritize my happiness. In exchange I am willing to give her great sex and my time/attention. Now all of that is great and good, but defending that expectation and not compromising it is he key. She falters, you give her dread, she fails, you go. End of story. No compromising or bargaining.
No need for compromise because being a man you have, hopefully, lived up to your male role and decided on realistic and just expectations. No bargaining because bargaining means she is not giving you what you want and desire cannot be negotiated. And havng the stones to know you can and will leave provides all the dread you should need.. if you really mean it, she will be able to tell.
Having all this in check provides the rock solid frame you need without all the posturing and pretending to “alpha up” etc. It just exists because the frame is then real.
I am finding much more personal happiness and feeling all my insecurities and self doubts fading as I work on this.. and I am not sitting wondering where I stand with her or how they see me.. and what can be more alpha than that? And yet I am still able to use alpha and beta “tells” but it becomes different… now I see her “tells” as a sign, not of my lacking alpha, but of her lacking the qualities and femininity to be worth being with.
It flips the script.. her inability to please me becomes HER failure, not mine. Her inability to embrace her female role of submissiveness is her lack, not mine.
I’m finding this helps me alot.
November 14th, 2014 at 2:34 am
“I am becoming more and more convinced that the best way is alpha up is by not aiming for it directly. Very much like happiness, which has been proven to be elusive for people searching directly for it, but comes more as a result of focusing on things other than happiness for it to materialize.”
Interviewer: Are you happy?
G.B. Shaw: (pause) I don’t know. I’ve never thought about it. I’ve been too busy doing what I want to do.
November 14th, 2014 at 2:55 am
And I keep on hearing this concept, over and over and everywhere, that to an alpha women are fungible.
That is such an adolescent conception of relationships! Not adolescent in that it’s so blue pill, or so beta, so so adolescent as a red pill conception.
Is your dog fungible? If you train up a dog from a puppy, would you just let some interloper come in and woo it away, and if it left shrug it off with “oh, she was just a bitch anyway and didn’t deserve me”?
No. We not only have real emotional investments in our charges, but we are personally responsible for training them up. We have time investments in their training. Anyone who has ever lost a dog will tell you that NO dog is replaceable.
No woman is replaceable either.
Does a guy who has access to an infinite number of puppies have an “abundance mentality” when it comes to his personal dog?
Fuck no! It’s HIS dog.
November 14th, 2014 at 3:00 am
@Hobbes. I think I understand what you mean by not giving power over to women to decide if we are alpha or beta or whatnot. And I like and share your pragmatic approach. Define our goals and how to get them.
If our goal is to have the women we desire also desire us and offer us sex, then we need to know what actions that are under our control will affect that behavior from them.
And so regardless, yes, it comes down to improving our quality of life through getting certain reactions out of women. Our lives are intertwined with them, and we must manipulate our environment in order to get from it what benefit us.
We ARE reliant upon their conception of us. Because quality of life is hugely affected by their conception of us.
November 14th, 2014 at 3:03 am
I just read the PsychologyToday article Rollo posted in the comments. Fascinating. It confirms AFBB.
But it would seem to completely ignore male behavior (Game) in affecting arousal (female orgasm). It asserts that a woman’s arousal is strictly caused by a man’s genetic material as shown in his symmetry. Game, from my own experience, obviously has a strong influence on how sexual a woman will be with a man. While I do not want to contradict this study, I know that looks are not the only factor that matters with women sexually. Looks help tremendously… but so does Game.
I suppose I will have to ruminate on how to reconcile this study with my own experience.
November 14th, 2014 at 3:06 am
I’m not aware of many bloggers who actively date and have LTRs. There are married guys, and puas who deliberately limit their flings to a few days, but are there other bloggers out there who talk from personal experience when it comes to things like escalation in the bedroom, and who also lead those escalations into sustainable and loving long term relationships?
It is inescapable that we all must relate everything back to personal experience. And a person’s position and lifestyle will inform that experience.
And it is extremely difficult not to be solipsistic about it and judge very different circumstances through our own lense. For instance using the example of the experiences in escalating women from the position of being a handsome young rock star as a litmus test to what is genuine alpha behavior and responses from women.
But there are other experiences available that can broaden out that perspective. For instance dating decade after decade, and maintaining monogamous and multiple concurrent relationships with loving and doting attractive young women.
November 14th, 2014 at 4:42 am
A Beta Tell that needs @rationalmale.
November 14th, 2014 at 7:54 am
@ stuttie
If she is the one initiating the PDA then she perceives you as Alpha and of high value.
When we have finished a dance, Mrs. Gamer will frequently cup my butt briefly. Recently, a woman was showing me IOI’s and I was flirting with her. Mrs. Gamer sat down next to me and leaned on my leg while talking with the woman.
Otoh, there are occasions where mateguarding is required and the mate will signal her need for help, such as when another alpha makes a move. In those cases, mateguarding is alpha.
Unicorns will mateguard themselves. Why would an alpha commit to anyone besides a unicorn?
November 14th, 2014 at 8:12 am
Hobbes puts the onus on the correct one: “her inability to please me becomes HER failure”.
November 14th, 2014 at 8:21 am
I keep failing to see why there is resistance to the utter simplicity of defining a beta by him serving women, and defining an alpha by women serving him. Beta is when the man has to perform, alpha is when the women have to perform.
re: “Escalation in the face of what appears to the novice as resistance is a HUGE part of what makes the man attractive.”
Yes, but almost everything that a man HAS TO DO (whether or not it is considered “the man’s job”) is beta. Beta is very masculine, btw.
It is alpha when it is the woman who has to do, instead. Consider: is it more alpha when it is women who have to compete for a man’s attention and to escalate to keep a man’s interest? If so, then necessarily it is more beta when the man *has* to perform.
November 14th, 2014 at 8:22 am
A unicorn is a woman with good fundamentals whom you shape through exacting standards of behavior for yourself and everyone around you. SMV advantages, game, etc. Are still essential. With a different man, she becomes just another harpy.
November 14th, 2014 at 9:16 am
“No woman is replaceable”
I agree that is a beta tell
November 14th, 2014 at 9:34 am
jjf12, to what purpose or use is your definition? If the woman does all the work, then the man is more alpha. Even if that were true, so what? It is of negative value to conceive of that definition.
The pragmatic usefullness of talking about alpha actions is to get something. We need to talk about how to get it.
Talking about if the means to the end is alpha or not will get in the way of getting that something.
Do we want a woman who is way out of our league who we greatly desire to treat us with sexual slavery and loving devotion, day after day?
Then we must learn HOW to do that. For each of us, it will be a bit different.
If for you the process of DOING that, and CREATING that attraction, (where before there was none) is beta, then your definitions are getting in the way of what you want.
November 14th, 2014 at 9:42 am
And I’m also starting to sniff a very defeatist attitude in this whole endeavor. A classist pidgeon holing.
Oh, I’m a beta, and my wife doesn’t really desire me.
Oh, he’s an alpha because THAT woman in THAT situation treats him with deference and sexual hunger.
The whole point of these discussions is not classify. That’s pointless. Totally pointless.
The point is to get what we want.
There is enormous potential SMV fluidity.
There is a HOW to increase attraction. Many hows. Many of the ways are not looks related or money related. Many are. Many are not dependent on dread or preselection. Many are.
There is tremendous flexibility in SMV and creating attraction.
Anything that works works. I want to repeat that 1000 times. There is no thing that works that is beta. If it works, then it works – and what matters is getting what we want.
What does NOT matter is classifying.
November 14th, 2014 at 9:55 am
I must admit when I read Rollo’s post I was concerned that I would being racking up a bunch of Beta points. Lately I have been having a bad run and am not on my game in it’s totality. My focus has been my business and just keeping things solvent and intact. A by-product of taking big risks is big potential down sides and so it is in business, I must perform all the time. This has sapped my confidence and energy levels and in turn this has been reflected into home life somewhat. So knowing that I was not always walking talking and breathing alpha, certainly not in my own mind, I thought as I read the article that surely I would see that I had slipped down the rungs into Blue Pill hell a bit.
Thankfully however, this was not the case.
I can only take away that I have indeed internalized so much Red Pill now that I don’t have to give it too much conscious thought any longer when going through my day even when I am not totally on my game. This is indeed a relief. It reminds me that so much of the red pill is not about being Alpha or Beta, or frame, it’s simply recognizing the way the world is and having the choice of how you deal with that as a fully informed person. With that comes the responsibility, once you “know” you cannot say to yourself that you didn’t know. So personal responsibility is paramount in red pill world.
Mate guarding. Hmmm, is not the best Alpha style mate guarding simply leaning into your mates flirtations with another man and saying, “Good luck with that one buddy, she’s all yours”.?
It lets him know that you know, it lets her know that she is indeed the one taking the risk by engaging in such behaviour and telegraphs an abundance mentality on your part, a devil may care attitude. A lesser man may well flip out and act highly defensive in such a situation and the defensive outburst is a big tell of a lower perceived standing. Amused mastery would be a better response for sure.Let her hamster fill in the blanks on the consequences of HER actions. An obsequious Beta would find ways to rationalize her behaviour and participate in brushing it under the rug later on as an act of denial about her wandering eyes etc.
Also when it comes to mate guarding, one might consider what it is she is looking for that would cause her attentions to wander. Is she short on raw masculine alpha energy? Or is she needing an emotional tampon to help her mop up some messy feelings? A shoulder to cry on? In both cases the interloper should be who is directly addressed and not the woman, but addressed in such a way that it is the woman who gets the message. Again, the medium is the message for women.
“I see what you up to, your duplicity is not lost on me woman”.
November 14th, 2014 at 10:16 am
@xsplat re: defeatist.
It is not defeatist nor merely classificationist pigeon-holing to point out to a beta who thinks he has to massage his wife’s back for half an hour before she will have sex that that is indeed beta behavior. Being a beta, I’ll be the first one to say that beta behavior IS what works for betas. That’s the only reason betas do it. The only reason a beta monkey brings bananas and grooms his female is because that is what works for him and gets him what he wants. Thus I cannot agree with
“Anything that works works. I want to repeat that 1000 times. There is no thing that works that is beta. If it works, then it works – and what matters is getting what we want.”
November 14th, 2014 at 10:29 am
@xsplat re: what works. From one of the Haselton papers linked by Rollo:
“More attractive men accrue reproductive benefits from spending more time seeking multiple mating partners and relatively less time investing in offspring. In contrast, the reproductive effort of less attractive men, who do not have the same mating opportunities, is better allocated to investing heavily in their mates and offspring and spending relatively less time seeking additional mates.”
When “what works” for betas is so COMPLETELY different from “what works” for alphas, then classifying behaviors IS what matters.
November 14th, 2014 at 10:36 am
Beta is what one makes himself when he does not have the courage to live proactively and accept the risks of life. No such thing as something “working for a beta”. That is the whole point of the manosphere. Beta is the samet thing as cheating yourself of a full life on your terms.
November 14th, 2014 at 10:49 am
a lot of comments here seem to really but a max capacity for masculinity; its like they cannot fully envision a bolder more joyful more masculine life
November 14th, 2014 at 10:55 am
More insight into the manipulable mess that is a woman’s mind.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/serena-piper/i-found-love-in-a-tinder-place_b_6149766.html
Self-described bored girl decides to investigate what she knows is a hookup app, supposedly to not hookup. But she did get hooked, because Tinder kept showing her hot frat guys, “just what I had expected”, evidently making her unable to “resist the curiosity of just who I might find”. “I found too much entertainment in seeing who in my town was using this appearance-based app.”
Finally working through her choice paralysis, she *bravely* (hee hee) decided to give one of the good looking guys the chance with her that he deserved. “I made the decision to stop stereotyping guys so quickly and leave my judgments at the iPhone home screen.”
November 14th, 2014 at 10:58 am
@sfcton re: masculinity capacity.
The Ladder Theory fits here. Guys on the beta ladder can “be all they can be” and be the best beta possible, but it doesn’t get them onto the alpha ladder.
November 14th, 2014 at 11:02 am
I’d be curious to see some other guy’s responses to Rollo’s original bulleted list of questions. I think I’m the only one so far to list my responses..
November 14th, 2014 at 11:16 am
@Jf12, a back-rub doesn’t work.
Whatever works works.
If it doesn’t work, then it doesn’t work.
Yes, we need to know generally what are beta behaviors.
But if the “beta” behaviors make her treat you more like an alpha and increase attraction and cause more doting and submissiveness and better sex, then they are not beta behaviors.
Beta behaviors don’t work. So yes, whatever works works, and nothing that works is beta.
It’s tautological.
For instance mate guarding works. I know that from personal factual real life lived experience. So does escalation past a womans stated boundaries.
Neither is beta. Because they work.
November 14th, 2014 at 11:21 am
Oh, and actually even backrubs in moderation can be a great display of higher value. It’s a rare and valuable talent.
But of course she should be attending more to the man the he her.
It’s like saying “I love you”. Not only is that perfectly acceptable, but it’s valuable and important. It’s just that she should say it at least 3 times as often.
November 14th, 2014 at 11:23 am
“The Ladder Theory fits here. Guys on the beta ladder can “be all they can be” and be the best beta possible, but it doesn’t get them onto the alpha ladder.”
There’s your defeatist defininition based classist non-fuid smv attitude right there.
We have very different views about how fluid is a mans SMV.
November 14th, 2014 at 11:26 am
And the Hazelton papers are broadly accurate but completely neglect non-looks based value that men can have.
There are plenty of ugly alphas. Some through fame, other through wealth, others through charisma.
You vastly underestimate the effect of non-physical attributes on pure raw attraction and also on gaining pure devoted sexual and physical lust and love.
November 14th, 2014 at 11:35 am
@wanderer “But it would seem to completely ignore male behavior (Game) in affecting arousal (female orgasm). ”
Ya, I’m short, ugly and balding. My face is way out of wack – no symmetry to be found in it. But I have a long history of making girls come who never had any orgasm before. Even those who had many partners.
As an ugly man I can say with authority that looks matter a LOT.
But I can also say with authority that it’s nowhere near the whole story. Even an ugly short man can date very hot women – and not only date them. Get them to fall in love. And not only fall in love. Dote, year after year. And not only that – accept non monagamy.
Very much of this talk of classifying behaviors and people as beta is missing the mark so widely as to be counter productive.
A man can shoot out of his league and get it and get all the apha tells from the woman towards him. What we need to talk about is how. How to do that. Not if the how is beta or not, or if the man is beta or not.
What actually really works in real life.
And that will be different for different men. There is no one sized fits all solution. Dark triad is not the one sized fits all solution. Money is not. Fame is not.
We play to our strengths – and some of us are going to discover some amazing talents and strengths.
And I’m here to tell people that some things classified as beta can actually be super-power strengths.
Mate guarding is one such thing. Another is escalation.
November 14th, 2014 at 11:36 am
“I’d be curious to see some other guy’s responses to Rollo’s original bulleted list of questions. I think I’m the only one so far to list my responses”
I didn’t reply as my answers were all no but the first bullet is tricky. We established she would mostly initiate, and then the more beta I was the less she would initiate, and more alpha resulted in endless initiating by her
November 14th, 2014 at 11:38 am
@ xplat
For instance mate guarding works. I know that from personal factual real life lived experience.
So, you know for certain that you’ve never been cheated on?
Lol, alpha is when a 9 (38 D cup) rubs her tits on you all the time when you’re dancing with her and you just ignore her flirtations and smile knowingly. Alpha is maintaining your frame. If you have taken vows, then keeping them is part of that frame. So, alpha can be keeping vows.
November 14th, 2014 at 11:45 am
@ Rollo
“Is this guy Alpha?”
Yes. While he’s being treated as an Alpha he is an Alpha. There is no eternal, pure, Platonic form of Alphaness. Alpha is relative.
Man is the measure of all things.
November 14th, 2014 at 11:45 am
@ agent p
Mate guarding. Hmmm, is not the best Alpha style mate guarding simply leaning into your mates flirtations with another man and saying, “Good luck with that one buddy, she’s all yours”.?
Best response is to simply observe for a bit with an amused mastery smile, then walk away. If she’s into you, she will eventually cut off the flirtation.
November 14th, 2014 at 11:51 am
@ New Yorker
A unicorn is a woman with good fundamentals whom you shape through exacting standards of behavior for yourself and everyone around you. SMV advantages, game, etc. Are still essential. With a different man, she becomes just another harpy.
I don’t know how much “shaping” I’ve been doing other than running continual Soft Dread, but Mrs. Gamer is very much a pink unicorn. She mate-guards herself without any guidance from me, works out, tries to please me, tries to look good for me, etc.
November 14th, 2014 at 12:04 pm
exsplat –
“No woman is replaceable”
Everyone and everything is replaceable.
“And I’m here to tell people that some things classified as beta can actually be super-power strengths.”
Context matters.
The value of knowing the general description and character of Alpha and Beta tells is in allowing the individual man to quickly and accurately ascertain his current standing and hopefully provide useful information that will allow him to adjust behavior to achieve the desired outcome.
November 14th, 2014 at 12:07 pm
Lint
November 12th, 2014 at 1:10 pm
“I have very few comments and receive no email contact regarding how offensive my content is to women’s sensibilities.”
That’s because most women who read your blog are too appalled to comment on its content, plus they have seen how nastily you treat women and men who dare to say something unfavorable.
Don’t flatter yourself believing that you are somehow an exception from the virulent misogyny and hideous idiocy of TRP.
Laughed at this because I saw the enormous responses to the post on Return Of Kings about women with tattoos and piercings being damaged goods. Both comments to the post and retweeted links. Appalled women can’t stop commenting.
Regarding Mookie’s comment. What I usually hear, especially when it’s women explaining/justifying the beta choice of other women, is that they’ve figured out what they want. And now that they know what they want they go find somebody. All the previous choices must have been an experiment, or trying samples at the ice cream shoppe.
A woman wouldn’t take an explanation from a man who exercising his option to capitalize on his smv peaks, that’s he’s trying to figure out what he wants, so he shouldn’t be criticized for it.
The peanuts in the pocket mate guarding. To me what made the guy beta was that he felt helpless about it. Not that he didn’t mate guard. Because a man could choose not to mate guard. And the choice could be from having another woman. Or by perceiving, whether or not justly, that she would be choosing a bootleg version over him.
Gorilla females will initiate sex with the silver back alpha male of the group. And they will also fake an initiation of a lower tier male to get the silver back alpha to mate guard. The lower tier male will try but she won’t actually let him copulate. This makes the silver back alpha mate guard by chasing away the other male, and then copulating with the female immediately.
The female even has a facial expression that she uses with the alpha on her initial try. Looks just like she’s smiling at him.
There’s no absolutes to it. Baboons mate guard by chasing away other males. Humans have their version too, but will also mate guard by directing their actions to the female. You can come across as alpha or beta by mate guarding or not mate guarding. If you tell your girl to please stop flirting with other guys, or show her you get upset, you can look beta. If you don’t mate guard but somehow get the message across that she needs to be sure she wants to take that gamble, cause you’re confident she’ll come out on the short end, then you can appear alpha.
November 14th, 2014 at 12:25 pm
@ads gamer
Shaping is nothing more than using your perceived advantage in SMV/confidence to lay down clear behavioral standards. It can be done very positively and a normal woman will gladly respond to it. Congrats on what looks like a very compatible partner.
November 14th, 2014 at 12:28 pm
@Badpainter, re: context.
In ANY context, my super-powers of being beta make me more beta. My super-powers of servicing my woman make me a super-servicer i.e. a super beta.
November 14th, 2014 at 1:03 pm
@water canon boy – great comment.
Yes, mate guarding is not necessarily beta – we completely agree. Yes, primates as well as most species where the female mates with the top dude mate guard. As do alpha humans. Agreed.
And therefore making blanket statements about mateguarding being a beta tell can not only be misleading, but can be detrimental to a man who wants to get his woman to treat him in the best way possible.
Because done properly mate guarding can be very affective in increasing attraction and having the woman treat the man as her genuine alpha.
I don’t like to see people misinformed.
November 14th, 2014 at 1:10 pm
jf12 – “In ANY context, my super-powers of being beta make me more beta.”
That must be frustrating.
In the Betas serve women, women serve Alphas model I’ve been on both ends without understanding the context. Many missed/fumbled opportunities where voluntary service displays on the part of women were read as them simply being nice, and nothing else. Often I’ve turned down unsolicited offers of assistance from women. I’ve also never had any problem getting favors from women, or getting them to respond to orders. No “please” required. However, my programming prevented me from ever taking advantage of those situations beyond the occasional acceptance of the help offered.
I don’t know how any of that affects my standing on the Alpha/Beta spectrum but it does make me an idiot.
November 14th, 2014 at 1:21 pm
@badpainter “provide useful information that will allow him to adjust behavior to achieve the desired outcome.”
The useful information is not:
1) don’t mateguard
nor
2) don’t escalate when there is resistance.
November 14th, 2014 at 1:32 pm
xsplat,
Accumulating your comments, one begins to suspect you feel threatened by the alpha-beta dynamic as it is illustrated by Tomassi.
Tomassi’s illustration is not wrong. Although it may be misinterpreted. It is not necessary to describe the massive polethera of possible nuances to make a point, and any such attempt would drown the point. The concept being explained would be lost. Maybe this is why Tomassi doesn’t bother with all the inconsequential “if-this-and-or-else-but-oh-maybe-by-the-way-also” superfluous tweaks. He sticks to basic fundamental dynamics. Like it or not, his observations are very consistent with reality. I agree with you that even alpha males mate guard some. However, they expend far less concern and energy mate guarding than most, because mate guarding is automatically taken care of to a great extent by others awareness of their alpha nature, no one wants to get their ass kicked. A preoccupation with mate guarding is most definitely a beta tell and regardless of what you claim no woman is turned on by such insecurity.
November 14th, 2014 at 1:34 pm
xsplat,
I don’t disagree.
But there are times when resistance means walk away, and forms of mate guarding that don’t work.
I think mate guarding, to be effective, has to be from the frame of defending one’s prerogatives, not from a frame defensive possession. Or to put it another way messaging is about demanding respect for your boundaries and thus for yourself. A mate poacher is disrespecting you, and that is greater affront than trying to fuck your woman.
November 14th, 2014 at 1:36 pm
@George. I’m surprised you didn’t acuse me of having a small penis too.
Rollo’s is one of my favorite blogs. I’ve been quoting him on my own blog for years, and he links to my blog in the sidebar.
I have enormous respect for his work.
But everybody is wrong about some things some times.
This is one of those times.
November 14th, 2014 at 1:39 pm
George – “A preoccupation with mate guarding is most definitely a beta tell and regardless of what you claim no woman is turned on by such insecurity.”
This.
It’s the insecurity that manifests in the displays that are being called out as a Beta Tell.
November 14th, 2014 at 1:41 pm
@badpainter, yes, a guy can mateguard improperly.
And yes, a guy can mateguard properly.
It’s the same with saying anything to a woman. You can say “Hi”, and either raise or lower attraction, just according to your tone of voice and body language.
The message is only very partially conveyed in the words.
It’s similar with mate guarding.
Or even with disciplining children. For some children all that is required is the gentlest of direction. Others respond only to harsher measures.
Is the REAL alpha the one who never spanks? NO! The real alpha is the one who gets the appropriate response. Who can read the signs and signals and act appropriately.
It’s not about if you spank or not, really – or if you mate guard or not – really. It’s about getting the job done.
And from long experience with many women I can say with authority that mate guarding can be one effective tool to get the job done – to get the woman to thank her lucky stars that she’s with such an incredible man and to give thanks in the form of devoted public blow jobs.
November 14th, 2014 at 1:43 pm
Oh good god. If I call out bullshit it means I’m full of bullshit. If I point out an error that harms other men it’s because I’m insecure.
Uh huh. Way to logic. That’s waterproof!
November 14th, 2014 at 1:46 pm
You know, I’ve been through this same song and dance on the old Heartiste forum – right about the time it was suspected that authorship changed.
I called him out on his bullshit about over-emphasis of confidence as the sole and primary determination of all that is alpha-attractive.
Many of the commenters there also were very loyal to ALL of heartistes ideas at the time.
Nowadays my notions are generally the accepted ones, and his are generally seen as extreme and wrong.
This is not a religion people. Dissent is not only allowed, it is helpful.