I’ve often been quoted of the following – “Marriage is no insulation from the sexual marketplace” – and at the risk of piling on to what I initially knew would be the click-bait du jour of the blogosphere this week, I was reminded of this quote as I read through the now infamous spreadsheet of sexual excuses as compiled by a 26 year old husband for a 26 year old wife.
You’ll have to excuse my tardiness in posting this week, but I wanted to allow this story some time to develop before I threw my hat in the ring. My expectation was that most takes on this sex denial log would be from a unilaterally feminine-primary perspective and predictably ridicule the husband for his efforts while absolving his wife of any culpability for her ‘reasons’ for not wanting to get after it with him.
Needless to say I wasn’t disappointed, but as an added bonus we got an indignant insight into what a feminine-primary culture expects men not to expect in marriage (spoiler alert, PUAs called this long before Feministing did).
There’s a lot to unpack here, so I’ll begin with the most obvious issues first.
The most glaring omission I’ve read in most of the posts regarding this couple so far is that, in a blatant effort to lessen the negative impact on the wife, very few bloggers have included the entire Reddit post to draw conclusions from:
The first thing we have to do is a bit of Red Pill math to understand the context in which this situation takes place. We have a couple that married young by modern standards. Both are 26 and have been married for 2 years (i.e. married at 24).
Furthermore they’d been monogamous for 3 years prior, thus they met and paired up at the age of 21.
This is as much as we know about their history, but in context we’re looking at a guy who in all likelihood married a 24 year old girl for the same feminine conditioned, idealistic reasons he had for pairing up with her at 21.
I don’t have any evidence to support the idea that this guy married his wife due to religious convictions, but I don’t think it’s too far a stretch to presume they had somewhat regular sex in the 3 years prior to marrying.
I also can’t confirm that either party had sex with anyone else prior to their meeting at 21, but if we consider that both likely had average sexual experiences between 18-21 we’re only talking about a window of around 4 years in which either had any opportunity to experience anyone else before they met.
I’m establishing this because if I had to speculate, both are the husband and wife are operating from Adolescent Social Skill Sets, and thus have no real frame of adult reference learned through dating (LTR or STR) with which they can base their expectations in marriage.
However, as we’ll see in a moment, a fem-centric culture is only too willing to fill in the blanks of that lack of social reference for them.
Spreadsheet Guy
A woman’s imagination is the single most useful tool in your Game arsenal.
Every technique, every casual response, every gesture, intimation and subcommunication hinges on stimulating her imagination. Competition anxiety relies on it. DHV (demonstrating higher value) relies on it. Sexual tension (‘gina tingles) relies on it. Call it “Caffeinating the Hamster” if you will, but stimulating a woman’s imaginings is the single most potent talent you can learn in any context of a relationship (LTR, STR, ONS, Plate Spinning.)
Spreadsheet Guy is learning this now no doubt. He’s done what most men do: attempt to litigate with evidence and deductively solve his problem by appealing to his wife’s reason with a token effort to enforce his ‘being in the right’ by exposing her to a marginal amount of dread.
What he fails to account for is that even if she responds with more frequent sex, any sex they do have will be the compromised result of her negotiated obligation, not her genuine, motivated desire.
The frame you enter into monogamy/marriage with sets the tone for your future relationship. Spreadsheet Guy is simply following the male deductive approach to problem solving and making appeals to his wife’s reason by graphically showing her (and now all of the internet) the evidence of his correctness.
Appealing to women’s logic and relying on deductive reasoning to sort it out is the calling card of a Beta mind. There is nothing more anti-seductive for women than appealing to her reason. Arousal, attraction, sexual tension, subcommunication of desire, all happen indirectly and below the social surface for women.
It’s not that women are incapable of reasoning (hypergamy is one logical bitch) or are crippled by their emotion-based hindbrains, it’s that if you’re asking her how to be more attractive you don’t Get It. It’s in the doing, not the asking.
I can’t fault the guy for his effort; he simply hasn’t learned that women never want full disclosure of anything – and particularly anything that shines an unflattering light on them.
Nothing is more gratifying for a woman than to believe she’s figured out a man using her mythical ‘feminine intuition’. Spreadsheet Guy doesn’t give her the option to use her imagination and solve the puzzle – just like most guys who believe the trope that ‘open communication is the key to a good relationship®’ he spells it out for her in no uncertain terms – and with a marginal amount of above-board Dread he expects (I presume) the problem with her sexual frequency will be solved for him.
From a male perspective, and particularly that of an uninitiated beta male, negotiation of desire seems a rational solution to the problem. Men tend to innately rely on deductive reasoning; otherwise known as an “if then” logic stream.
The code is often something like this: I need sex + women have the sex I want + query women about their conditions for sex + meet prerequisites for sex = the sex I want.
One very important element of Spreadsheet Guy’s actions that needs to be understood is the convenient comparisons being made in regard to the transactional nature of sex, and the expectations men (and to a lesser degree women) place on their conditions for sex.
Of course the first feminist retort is that men should never have any expectation under any circumstance of receiving the gift of a woman’s sexuality for any reason other than that she wants to fuck him.
Naturally this becomes problematic under the auspices of marriage wherein a man’s default presumption is that he is, if not entitled to, then certainly can expect to some extent that his wife will have sex with him.
This situation represents an illustration of the great schism between the old order social contract of marriage, wherein a man had a reasonable expectation of sex with his wife, and the new feminine-primary order wherein a man has absolutely no right, expectation or privilege to his wife’s sexuality.
Unfortunately for men the great deception of this schism serves the Feminine Imperative in that it still conveniently convinces men that they can expect sex while simultaneously shaming them for the expectation that feminine-primacy tells them they should expect.
This double-speak is necessary to insuring the certainty of long-term security needs that women’s dualistic sexual strategy demands.
Consider Choreplay: 5 years ago the same female author encourages men to do more dishes and help a woman out with her domestic chores because “nothing’s sexier” than a man who ‘shares’ the housework.
Translation: Perform these tasks and you will be rewarded with the “unadulterated lust” your wife has been reluctant to deliver – i.e. negotiated desire.
5 years later…“Households with a more traditional gender division of labor report higher sexual frequency than households with less traditional gender divisions of labor,”
So the only conclusion we can really draw from this is that women encourage exactly the transactional mentality about sex that they now complain all men feel they are “owed”.
Spreadsheet Guy was caught in this presumptive trap – prior to marriage he’s sold the idea that he can expect his wife to be sexual with him on a regular basis, but only after he’s taken measures to prove that his wife isn’t upholding her end of the marriage bargain is he told that he in fact has absolutely no privilege to his wife’s sexuality under any circumstance – and furthermore that she holds unilateral control over his own sexual fulfillment under penalty of breach of (marriage) contract.
Spreadsheet Wife
As I began earlier, an entire social support network is more than ready to fill in the blanks left by Spreadsheet Wife’s lack of social reference.
The most obvious form of this comes from the comments and encouragement of women and feminized men affirming her prefabricated understanding of ‘what sex should be after marriage’.
Our sex life HAS tapered in the last few months, but isn’t that allowed?
If you need confirmation of the double-speak about sexual entitlement I outlined above you’ll find it in the words of the same woman before and after she’s married.
This is yet one more ready-made social convention for women to default to after she’s secured the provider-male her hypergamy demands in marriage. A woman’s sexual appetites are expected to “taper” off and she should be “allowed” this tapering and have a man understand and accept this fact.
Once again, The Cardinal Rule of Sexual Strategies:
For one sex’s sexual strategy to become realized, the other sex’s strategy must be compromised or abandoned entirely.
And again, the Roissy / Heartist Prime Directive of Feminism:
The goal of feminism is to remove all constraints on female sexuality while maximally restricting male sexuality
After all the back and forth I’ve been reading about this spreadsheet I think it’s time for men to come to terms with how the social contract that used to be marriage has fundamentally changed.
Marriage is no insulation from the sexual marketplace.
The advantages of being single and indefinitely dating non-exclusively (Spinning Plates) or stringing along a series of short term monogamous affairs far outweigh the risks of a lifetime of marriage in which no man should ever expect sex in terms of either genuine desire or even uninspired obligation sex.
In other words, men are entirely powerless to effect any degree of control over their sex lives under the auspices of a now feminine-primary definition of marriage. The only condition under which men have any degree of exercisable control over the their sex life is remaining single and retaining the threat-point of exiting any relationship when that satisfaction declines.
In Appreciation I went into detail about how women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices men make to facilitate a feminine reality; this situation is a prime example of this.
Women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the risks a man must assume in unilaterally relinquishing any degree of control he might’ve been able to realize over his own sex life – and never to expect he could ever even have that control.
July 27th, 2014 at 11:59 pm
Hey Rollo, I don’t know if you’ve added this study to your pile yet:
http://fusion.net/modern_life/story/nice-girls-finish-study-shows-891658
Men prefer nice girls. Women dis-prefer nice guys.
Gurit E. Birnbaum, Tsachi Ein-Dor, Harry T. Reis, and Noam Segal. 2014.
Why Do Men Prefer Nice Women? Gender Typicality Mediates the Effect of Responsiveness on Perceived Attractiveness in Initial Acquaintanceships. Pers Soc Psychol Bull, 0146167214543879, first published on July 25, 2014 doi:10.1177/0146167214543879.
http://psp.sagepub.com/content/early/2014/07/11/0146167214543879.abstract
July 28th, 2014 at 12:17 am
Rollo Tomassi’s The Desire Dynamic chapter has become famous young and the young at heart !!!
July 28th, 2014 at 12:30 am
LiveFearless
July 28th, 2014 at 12:17 am
Well that was interesting. Could you explain it. In simple language and short sentences? Who was the narrator? Was it bits of sound pieced together? Or some one actually reading?
July 28th, 2014 at 3:51 am
Here we go again…
http://mashable.com/2014/07/25/fights-harassment/?utm_cid=mash-com-fb-main-link
July 28th, 2014 at 8:10 am
I thought I posted this here but I guess not.
http://www.newsweek.com/study-finds-men-nice-women-not-other-way-around-261269?piano_d=1
Birnbaum et al find that men prefer nice, but women do not prefer nice.
July 28th, 2014 at 9:00 am
@ WaterCannonboy – No it did not “miss the joke”, rather I didn’t spend the time to even get what you are talking about. The comment stream is getting interesting again though, particularly the stuff on Dalrock from M Simon and some if12 stuff, but I don’t really invest here beyond getting information and sharing my experiences in a real way. To even figure out what you are talking about is an investment I don’t want to make, yeah? My life is in the real world, not on comment sections of manosphere blogs. One of the huge wake up calls for me as I digested the Red Pill a la Rollo is that my life is my project, and somehow or the other I had become so dejected that I’d retreated to the interwebs as a “community” but realized mostly I was doing so because i can always do so on my terms. It’s easy and quite aggrandizing to the ego. But it’s all artificial. Don’t get me wrong, interesting, actual thought and commentary from people who are either sharing THEIR experiences or incisive critique are great. But that’s not what is going on with most regular commenters. For them, commenting is best seen as analogous to video gaming. It’s all far too passive for me. What’s really happened for me is that I’ve become much more self-interested and self-loving, and from that POV, the amount of web commentary I engaged in was completely unproductive. Fyi, I had a YouTube manosphere channel with 23,000 views and hundreds of subscribers – and I realized it didn’t serve me so I just deleted it. That was the single best decision I’ve made in a long time
Rollo did a great piece a while ago on a backpacking trip he took. He talked about the innately male pleasure one takes in movement, and running and lifting and hiking and climbing and fucking etc. Adventure, engaging the world and others – this enervates me in a way that commenting on websites never will. I’ve done similar trips and it all rang so true to me. Very few alpha men are sitting around commenting on blogs, Boyo.
What, you don’t realize most of the alpha posers throughout the manosphere are utterly full of shit? Guys like Minter didn’t teach you that lesson? Fyi, he really was the prototypical guy sitting in his sister’s basement, in his underwear, unemployed, smoking weed all day and screaming at the world about what an uber alpha he was – take the lesson. And still, even here, he speaks as though a sentient, self-respecting man would ever take what he has seriously again, lol. I mean, just slow down and think about how disconnected that is from reality. In the real word, when people demonstrate so clearly that they are frauds and lowlives, they are shamed into retreat. Not here, he bravely spews more BS – but his ex-wife made clear that he’s a deadbeat who abandoned his children. In the real world, guys like him don’t ever dare lecture me about shit – why would I care what they have to say here? I’m too busy playing in an arena of life that guys like Minter have never earned a place in to begin with.
I learned the lesson. In fact, I’ve learned the lesson in general on the web. I’m here primarily for Rollo’s content and it’s amazing. I also enjoy actual, substantive interactions but the rest is not relevant or interesting to me. So you, and the others, enjoy the joke – just know it’s not at my expense.
The web self-selects for a large group of people who have a desperate need to have their egos aggrandized due to their utter irrelevance in the real world. Frustrated engineer-renaissance men, uber betas posing as Alphas who don’t even realize that their entire stream of babble is essentially “qualifying” with this community – you see versions of this everywhere on the web, politics or any issue. And if you look really deeply, you’ll see that its the same people commenting across many different areas in similarly breathless ways.
The Red Pill sure is yummy.
July 28th, 2014 at 9:10 am
Anon2
She misinterpreted your response as a parting insult, which can happen through text. If you said “I’m glad you were honest,” she wouldn’t have lashed out.
Personally, I would’ve just said “OK,” and left it at that.
July 28th, 2014 at 9:52 am
Also should have added that YoungGuy is a great contribution. A real life story, a real person struggling with the Red Pill in a real situation. Fantastic stuff, thanks for it. See you guys next article.
July 28th, 2014 at 11:47 am
Hi M Simon,
I read your post about political parties existing appropriately within their own ecological niches. I agree.
However, remember that politics is a religion substitute. A creation of the state to make us believe the state is a god substitute.
The sooner we give up this false consciousnesd (like the Amish) the better
July 28th, 2014 at 12:10 pm
Mr Ed
July 28, 2014 at 3:26 pm
Humans are “designed” to worship something. I have decided to pick something so stupid that not even I could believe it. To keep the dysfunction to a minimum and the rationality to a maximum.
Hail Ra!
On alternate Thursdays it is plants. I feed them by either burning coal or turning on all the gas burners for 5 minutes. Plants love CO2. Of course in winter around here the worship is automatic. Very convenient.
July 28th, 2014 at 2:23 pm
M Simon: Thanks for all the links! Mark doesn’t read comments, but I showed him the pages.
re all the tweets: Its absolutely silly for a man who writes all kinds of defamatory articles to cry foul when it happens to him. I brought this up at D & P and it was, of course, deleted. Do you really feel Tucker Max owes Roosh an apology, Rollo? Do you think Roosh owes Mark an apology? He stole Mark’s comments from here and republished them without his knowledge or permission. He then proceeded to write defamatory articles about him encouraging others to ruin his name causing him continued financial hardship. You contributed to this problem as well. Do *you* owe Mark an apology. I’d say you both do. A big one.
July 28th, 2014 at 2:57 pm
Kate,
Thank you? Who is Mark? I’m not familiar with that contretemps.
As to what I’m doing? I have learned a couple of things and being an old man I have an old man’s vices. I hope to pass along a little of what I have learned in the hopes of saving anyone who pays attention a little trouble.
July 28th, 2014 at 3:18 pm
Mark is Mark Minter. Oh, well, when we got engaged last year, Roosh, Rollo, etc. all flipped their lids and contributed to pages upon pages of defamatory articles that are now permanent residents in Google. I like to remind them of what they did from time to time to show their readers their hypocrisy in their claim to “help” men. When they in fact had the chance to do so in a real way, they did the exact opposite and gave the stage over to his ex-wife to air her complaints. They completely abandoned him and took her word as gospel. Feminine imperative, indeed. Of all those who maligned his character (and mine), Rollo is the only one man enough not to delete my comments.
I can tell you are wise, and it is a noble attempt to spare others pain when they would probably wantonly inflict it upon you without hesitation or compunction.
July 28th, 2014 at 3:37 pm
@Kate,
Law 5
So Much Depends on Reputation – Guard it with your Life
Reputation is the cornerstone of power. Through reputation alone you can intimidate and win; once you slip, however, you are vulnerable, and will be attacked on all sides. Make your reputation unassailable. Always be alert to potential attacks and thwart them before they happen. Meanwhile, learn to destroy your enemies by opening holes in their own reputations. Then stand aside and let public opinion hang them.
Protect your reputation – Reputation can defend you in any attack, but it is useless once damaged. Never tolerate or ignore any threat of a blemish to your reputation.
I think both you and Mark would be wise in re-reading this law.
Kate, part of maintaining an open, unmoderated comment thread is that it cuts both ways. It bears repeating that my comments have always been and will remain to be uncensored, and with the exception of spam, undeleted, scrubbed or modified.
This means I must personally stand on everything I’ve written on this blog. I consider this for a moment after I proof read every new post and my cursor is about to click on the publish button. I don’t write click-bait articles, and beyond selling The Rational Male at the lowest allowable price on Amazon, I’ve never monetized the site.
Unlike Aunt Giggles, Mark Manson, Athol Kay, and Tucker Max, I’ve never had the need to reinvent my reputation or scrub my past writing to better fit a a compromised (but duplicitously profitable) narrative or a new, more acceptable image.
I don’t think Tucker owes Roosh an apology, because public opinion will hang Tucker Max more effectively and more painstakingly than any faked contrition by Tucker.
Likewise, I don’t think Roosh or anyone else owes an apology to Mark. Mark made his bed and now he’ll have to deal with the consequences of damaging his own reputation.
I like Mark, I value his input. At one point I’d even entertained the idea of having him write the forward of The Rational Male. If a bit longwinded, he’s an intelligent guy and I was disappointed about the whole affair. Unlike most other forums both of you are always welcome to contribute here like anyone else.
As I’ve stated many times prior, the only way to test the validity and strength of any premise is in an open marketplace of ideas. So I’ll suffer through the likes of Matt King or the blue pill Reddit members to fully hash out ideas even when people are willfully ignorant or trolling.
However that same open market will cut you back the other way when you, intentionally or not, engage in duplicity. That’s what happened to Mark and that’s what’s happening to Tucker Max now.
July 28th, 2014 at 3:47 pm
Kate,
Thanks for that! I’m going to look up Mark and see what I can do to help.
Contact me if I can do something for you. What kind of work are you into? Mark?
My e-mail is on the sidebar of Power and Control. Contact me if you think it would help.
July 28th, 2014 at 4:14 pm
All – Kate and Mark are exactly the kind of people I was referring to. I wonder, how many here know that for a while, Kate would spout really ugly racist rhetoric on her blog? She hid it behind “racial realism” claptrap, but that’s easy to see through. Consider carefully taking advice from these people. Would you do so in the real world? Or would you steer clear of them or just laugh at them? Me? Such people never even make into the social and business circles I operate in – they are the human detritus good, productive, serious people shun.
Kate – it’s not defamation if its true. You just accused Rollo of defamation – a defamation in and of itself, moron. Mark had ample chance to produce evidence that he wasn’t what his ex-wife accused him of. I’d like to see bank statements like mine, showing that I paid 182k in child support and 85k toward college, in addition to another 94k of dough that I spent directly on my daughter over 17 years from age 4.5 to 21. It’s easy to do – the cancelled checks are still there and his bank surely has the statements in archive. But no – he didn’t do a thing to disprove her. I’m ready to hear it – produce the bank statements or cancelled checks here and I’ll take it all back. Provide a schedule of his visitation and chronicle the time he spent with his children, being a good father. What, you thought this was a place where abandoning one’s children financially and physically wouldn’t be mocked, shamed and derided?
I’m sorry you married a lowlife scumbag deadbeat dad. But you knew that going in, so you have no right to object to being known as a person that would marry such a person, and be judged accordingly. He considers scoring a young piece of ass like you to be his ultimate PUA victory – he’s said so repeatedly in his pathetic defense of his hypocrisy in various postings. Scammed by a lowlife, that’s your lot in life. I’ll bet you 1000 dollars you are divorced in 5 years – and back here badmouthing him.
Bottom line? Shut the fuck up unless you want more of this.
July 28th, 2014 at 4:14 pm
Kate,
From what little I know of you – from here and reading a few posts at your blog – there is a fair chance marriage will work for you and Mark. I don’t think I could raise another man’s child (I did have a girlfriend once with 9 children – introduced the first mate to her some years after it was over) so if he (and you) pulls it off more power to you both.
Since you both know the “rules” it will be both more difficult and easier. As I said – let me know what I can do to help. In engineering I was often assigned the “worst” employees. I liked to turn them into the best. Had to or my projects would fail. And besides I loved making management squirm.
July 28th, 2014 at 4:23 pm
M Simon,
“Humans are “designed” to worship something.”
What about hyper-rational hard core INTP mechanistic naturalist iconoclast engineers like me?
Ra Ra Ra!
July 28th, 2014 at 4:25 pm
Glenn
July 28th, 2014 at 4:14 pm
Well that doesn’t bother me. I have written posts on the Bell Curve. My best friend (a black guy) lives in my house. One of my best friends in high school was a black guy. Reality is not necessarily racism. In fact my black friend and I have often discussed “what is wrong with those people”.
Is it possible I’m taking an unwarranted chance? Wouldn’t be the first time. Can I make it work? Never tell me the odds.
July 28th, 2014 at 4:26 pm
This is what I posted about Tucker on MikeC’s Danger & Play when he first announced Mating Grounds and started lifting from the 10 years of manosphere writer’s material to sugarcoat and repackage for his rebrand:
Blue pill backsliding and publicly renouncing the paper-Alpha frat boy revenue model that brought you recognition can get expensive when you “accidentally” knock a girl up and need to rationalize reasons for marrying her. What’s an ‘entrepreneur’ like Tucker to do when he’s done a 180 on every premise of ‘Beer in Hell’ and detonated the only machine that might pay for his kid’s daycare payments?
Reinvent a more commercially ‘palatable’ and feminine-primary revenue model by systematically mining the manosphere for the most provocative and salient issues its writers were raked over the coals to establish over the past 10 years. Then paraphrase and sanitize them to appeal to the sensibilities of a feminine-primary readership, and finally, repackage them as your own original ideas from a “former red pill guy who finally saw the light that ‘Not All Women are Like That’ and those dudes are just bitter-burned® incels who can’t get laid.”
It’s a really brilliant marketing strategy that I’m sure Tucker will congratulate himself over; the only problem is that Rick Raw, Mark Manson, Athol Kay and Susan Walsh have already been using this ‘false-flag red pill’ revenue model successfully for over 4 years now.
In fact I predicted this model coming about 3 years ago:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/08/could-a-man-have-written-this/
http://therationalmale.com/2012/12/28/sanitizing-the-imperative/
My guess is the royalty money is drying up and Tucker needs to return to the publicity well once again, only he shot the golden goose in his pregnant GF / ONEitis fueled recanting of his former Alpha cad ways and needs to find some new way to reestablish his credibility.
July 28th, 2014 at 4:30 pm
jacklabear
July 28th, 2014 at 4:23 pm
There is probably something you take on faith.
Amen-Ra. The origin of Amen.
http://www.touregypt.net/amen.htm
July 28th, 2014 at 4:41 pm
Rollo Tomassi
July 28th, 2014 at 4:26 pm
All women are like that. I don’t hold it against them.
Evidently Kate (from what I can tell) knows she is like that. I see that as both a help and a hindrance
July 28th, 2014 at 4:55 pm
Re: Tucker. Is his father’s money running out already?
July 28th, 2014 at 5:00 pm
Roosh had high praise for Mark which no one argued he deserved at the time:
http://www.returnofkings.com/319/who-is-mark-minter
Until such time as Mark flipped his own script:
http://www.returnofkings.com/14846/mark-minter-is-a-phony
Bear in mind this was a year ago today. To my knowledge Kate and Mark are still unmarried and not even living in the same state. There are still no picture in existence of the two of them ever being together in the same place at the same time.
As best I can tell they’re still entertaining some online LDR. That doesn’t mean I don’t think what either have to contribute isn’t appreciated, and I think at least Mark has an excellent analytical mind, however it’s still very suspect if not a bit fishy.
July 28th, 2014 at 5:31 pm
Rollo,
Rationality is over rated. And I say that as a person who makes his living from extreme rationality. The irrational part of life comprises 90% in my estimation. I can’t tell you how often I’ve embarked on a course based on feeling. It just may be that my neural net is fairly well trained. But I always try to double check to the best of my ability to be sure I’m not being led astray by my “feelings”. FWIW I have a feeling for Kate. Not romantic. Or “hot”. Just that she is interesting. As I may have mentioned – she reminds me of my 1st GF who taught me game.
I can understand the feeling of “double cross”. Not having been a party to that maybe I can do something useful. Or else I will be learning a lesson.
You know the old saw:
“What do you get when you don’t get what you want? You get an education.”
July 28th, 2014 at 5:41 pm
A reputation in the “manosphere” is hardly worth protecting, Rollo. You do know that, right?
July 28th, 2014 at 5:44 pm
Then what are you worried about?
July 28th, 2014 at 5:45 pm
Thank you for your kindness, M Simon :)
July 28th, 2014 at 5:52 pm
“It’s a really brilliant marketing strategy that I’m sure Tucker will congratulate himself over; the only problem is that Rick Raw…[has] already been using this ‘false-flag red pill’ revenue model successfully for over 4 years now.”
Wait, how exactly is RIck Raw (therawness) pushing the ‘false-flag red pill’?
I get that the guy comes off as some armchair physiologist but nothing about him strikes me as a phony, aside from his negligence of HBD truths.
If you could, I would appreciate if you could expand further.
July 28th, 2014 at 5:54 pm
M Simon,
you have a “feeling” for Kate because she complimented you. It is the same kind of feeling any alpha, beta, or omega gets when a passably attractive woman — or in case of the Internet interactions, any woman — pays positive attention to him. She is “interesting” to you for that very reason. Not that there is anything wrong with it.
The Minter Affair is a pure sociopathic gold, from every possible angle: the main players, their interactions, the cat-fight fallout complete with collective pearl clutching and laments about the end of manosphere — all a perfect illustration of the ridiculousness of this cult-like enterprise. It is a house of cards, built by sociopaths and inhabited by social rejects who are too desperate and blind to see how the sociopaths manipulate them while laughing all the way to the bank.
Dregs of the society.
It is a pity that sometimes a decent enough but unaware person gets caught up in their slimy world. By the time they notice what’s happened to them, the damage is done. Must be karma.
July 28th, 2014 at 6:03 pm
Who wants to be associated with the manosphere? It outed itself as a childish joke last summer: little men who hadn’t the experience to understand its more mature members. Nothing but a mob scene of cattle unwilling to think. Look at the alexa ratings and it becomes very clear what kinds of people are involved. Reference what happened to SSM. See how Dalrock’s sick commenters are bringing down his site. Notice the caveat Heartiste has posted about his comment section. The manosphere as it was known (a cooperative salon of intelligent people) is over. Now its some sort of medieval playpen and every week there’s someone new in the stocks for garbage like this Glenn character to throw tomatoes at. Its life outside the manosphere that matters. And your perpetration of lies makes you complicit. Let that be forever on your conscience (if you have one).
July 28th, 2014 at 6:30 pm
Rollo,
Ran into this comment at:
http://www.returnofkings.com/14846/mark-minter-is-a-phony#comment-979655125
Slowly the reality dawns on us that we’re not just refugees from a system designed to enslave us, that suffers no dissidence but that we’re actually fighting a holy war for our very sense of self.
That is one of the most pathetic declarations I have ever read in my life. I have always taken to heart what Krishna said to Arjuna, “Get up and fight.” The meek ain’t going to inherit shite. They are going to be road kill.
When I was a small boy I wanted what all boys wanted – a life of adventure. The adventure has never stopped. And slave? As long as you need to eat and breathe you are a slave to food and breath. What the hell else did you expect? What are a few extra mouths to feed?
You play the game badly you get crippled or die. That doesn’t seem to me like a good reason not to play. I’m reminded of the three laws of thermodynamics:
You can’t win.
You can’t break even.
You can’t quit the game.
Those rules are iron clad. Physics. Might as well get on with it.
Men are expendable. Get over it.
====================
And over at RoK they call it the Manosphere. Buncha crybabies. Reality is what it is. Deal with it. I suppose being an engineer has helped me reinforce that mind set. Thank The Maker.
Oh. Yeah. I was always a dissident.
And on to my faults. I’m arrogant. How else can you live the way YOU want? Too arrogant? You lose. Not arrogant enough? You lose. Tricky stuff. That is a part of the adventure.
When did men stop being men? The truth is most never want to be. The work is WAY too hard. Go watch a movie and dream. Or what ever the equivalent is these days.
So my advice? For those who want it? Get up and fight.
July 28th, 2014 at 6:37 pm
Mart
July 28th, 2014 at 5:54 pm
Of course. Who wants to waste time with humans where the other humans involved aren’t interested. That is why I played Game the way I did. It insured at least a minimum of interest. I still play that way.
July 28th, 2014 at 6:55 pm
And Mart,
That rule is not just for women. It applies to men and women. I’m not interested in followers, groupies, or 100,000 facebook “friends”. I’m interested in people who want to do something and can use my help.
July 28th, 2014 at 7:04 pm
Kate – helping to lower expectations …
July 28th, 2014 at 7:33 pm
Hi Kate,
Thank you for the kind note and offer to help a couple weeks ago.
I feel remiss in not having acknowledged that till now.
July 28th, 2014 at 7:42 pm
Let us suppose for the sake of argument the “Manosphere” got everything it wanted. An end to no fault divorce and all the rest. What will you have? Almost exactly what you have now because women will still be women.
In fact the only cure is for men to be Men. So why bitch? The rules are still the same. Get the best woman you can and dominate her. What should you in fact be looking for? A woman who prefers your method of domination. And it would be good if she likes you. Very good. It gets you over rough patches. And you ought to like her.
The general rule is no more than 20 IQ points difference. That is just as important as limiting the difference in SMV. And just like in height (generally) the man should be smarter. It is difficult enough dealing with their games from a position of advantage. Equality is usually not going to cut it.
Also the man should have 5X as much sexual experience as the woman (roughly). How can that work? Well you are going to go through a LOT of loose women. Or women who will settle for Betas after a few Alpha flings.
And you have to accept that the odds of a virgin are slim. Look for a serial monogamist. Most women are. Sort of.
The advantage of a lot of women for you? Experience. You can use that experience in a number of ways against her. To dominate her.
Well enough for now. More later.
July 28th, 2014 at 8:02 pm
M Simon,
I agree with you on both counts.
Rationality has limited value.
Even W. Edwards Deming said that the most important things can’t be measured. I have gotten a lot more mileage out of intuition (subconscious background processing) than analysis in my engineering career.
It allowed me to design an instrument with world record performance (that held for two years with competitors like Tektronix, HP, Siemens, Schlumberger, Anritsu etc) with my humble BSEE from a State University. I only escalate the analysis beyond mental approximations as needed.
I must have faith in something.
Yes, I realized I do.
My ethics are based on the golden and platinum rules.
But here’s the thing, besides maybe sometimes generating a little good will with quid pro quo benefits, doing unto others as I would have them do unto me does not somehow cause the next stranger I interact with to magically do right unto me. Yet a man has to have his principles, and I figure this life is the one chance I have to do good works in this world. So actually, I conduct myself that way out of simple blind faith that it is the right thing to do, free of prospect of any supernatural reward or punishment.
In practice, it amounts to the same thing as unquestioned faith on my part.
I suppose that tends to lead to beta behavior.
July 28th, 2014 at 8:05 pm
@Mart
your sociopath fetish is hardly a useful utilization of your time is it
July 29th, 2014 at 12:22 am
Well, I did it, I finally visited that Mating Grounds site. You’re right. Every single bit of advice Tucker is now saying is 180° opposite to what he found had worked in real life for a decade (or more, counting his party-hardy ways all through highs school and college). It’s like he’s trying to stifle competition by sending men through the wrong door. And Doktor Miller’s counseling comes from the same rainbow place where Swedish bikini model choose brainy men. What a mess. And they expect people i.e. men will buy it?
July 29th, 2014 at 2:06 am
jacklabear
July 28th, 2014 at 8:02 pm
There is always that inner beta – and it is occasionally useful. When she decides to be your slave you should be kind to her. Not give up dominance. Besides – it is good for the children to see you treating your mate well.
BTW loved reading about your design intuition. I agree.
July 29th, 2014 at 2:16 am
jf12
July 29th, 2014 at 12:22 am
And Doktor Miller’s counseling comes from the same rainbow place where Swedish bikini model choose brainy men.
But they do like brainy men. If the man is dominant. The first mate and I discuss it when she is having one of her rational moments. Brains was one of the things she was looking for.
July 29th, 2014 at 8:28 am
@M Simon, actually, no. The more intelligent the man (and this is NOT limited to geniuses), the fewer women choose him to be a sexual partner, and it’s quite monotonically decreasing. Period. The *highest* number of female sexual partners is when the man has IQ 85-95, NOT e.g. 110-125.
What comes out of women’s mouths has evolved to be part of their sexual deception, btw, which includes but is not limited to concealed ovulation.
July 29th, 2014 at 9:08 am
jf12
July 29th, 2014 at 8:28 am
Interesting. And probably correct. Which makes me think back to why I did so well. Probably because I was in so many college towns. Or gravitated to the places the smarter women congregated at. Or just wanted to get laid and temporarily “settled”.
Which say that there are always things you can do to improve your chances no matter what the odds. And even doing what I did my odds were reduced because I preferred Cs and Ds. Which is mostly what I got. Sometimes two at a time.
“The Bell Curve” goes into that some. The smarter people are not reproducing. And in that I defied the odds as well. Four kids. Our plan was for three, but when they all turned out to be boys the first mate wanted to try once more for a girl. We got one. A real beauty too. And brains. A degree in ChemE. I like discussing thermodynamics with her. A very difficult subject if you have ever looked into it. It has served me well in my discussions on climate blogs.
But #1 daughter at 23 is sour on men. It will be interesting to see what happens. She is planning a move to the left coast in the coming month.
July 29th, 2014 at 9:10 am
@Glenn
My life is in the real world, not on comment sections of manosphere blogs.
688 words on a single post, of many, to say that you don’t care about the comment section of the manosphere.
Kind of made my eyeballs do that Looney Toons “pop out of the head” thing.
July 29th, 2014 at 11:09 am
@jf12
@M Simon, actually, no. The more intelligent the man (and this is NOT limited to geniuses), the fewer women choose him to be a sexual partner, and it’s quite monotonically decreasing. Period. The *highest* number of female sexual partners is when the man has IQ 85-95, NOT e.g. 110-125.
What comes out of women’s mouths has evolved to be part of their sexual deception, btw, which includes but is not limited to concealed ovulation.
Poppycock. The higher IQ man, if he’s socially aware and adept, can easily obtain highly desirable men. You’re working on what appears to be a thug v. nerd framework. That’s an invention of modern culture and Hollywood, not reality. Tiger Woods is intelligent (from what I can discern) and his notch count is through the roof, as we all know. I know, he’s an athelete/star/celebrity, but still, he’s intelligent and pulls major tail. Einstein dated Marylin Motherfuckin’ Monroe, for goodness sake. He was a stellar genius and Monroe did NOT need to latch onto his fame, herself being much more famous at the time. And so on.
July 29th, 2014 at 12:31 pm
It ought to be highly amusing to truly intelligent men that Scott Barry Kaufmann and Geoffrey Miller, among other psychologists, are so bent by reality that they are forced to redefine intelligence, in order to try to persuade themselves that “Cute girls really would prefer smart dudes, if only they knew. Sigh.”
July 29th, 2014 at 12:58 pm
I think we’re talking past each other here. A smart man adapts to his mating environs IF he has social awareness. Wouldn’t you agree? Not all smart men wear wire rimmed glasses, sweater vests with pocket protectors on the pocket and are pencil thin. I’m not going to talk myself up too much, but do I strike you as an idiot or drooling retard (no, seriously, do I heh)? Yet in real life you’d wouldn’t be able to tell me from any other tall, scary looking biker type. Does Rollo, a smart man by anybody’s reckoning, strike you as somebody that women are not attracted to (in addition to his wife)?
Lord Byron was a scary intelligent man, and a well renowned womanizing cad and haberdasher as well. Women of the day would flock to be around him, he was even mocked for his PUA style.
Benjamin Franklin was one of the great men of the Revolutionary war and contributed highly to the intellectual discussion at the time. Do we need to revisit his near deity like re-known amongst the women of his day?
Many of the great philosophers of the Enlightenment had girlfriends/wives.
Mozart, a pock mark faced composer, snagged a hotty and pumped out quite a few kids before kicking the bucket. He was the epitome of musical genius, e.g. – a really, really smart fellow. She was smitten with him at a soul snagged level, she was high quality and she was a looker (well, based on the paintings I’ve seen).
Genghis Khan was a tactical genius by any measure, the man had hordes of women *before* he swept over Eurasia and most of Europe.
The point being, and yes I have a point heh, is that getting women is NOT a matter of intellect or intelligence. Rather, it’s a matter of knowing how to manipulate their emotions and play on their buttons such that they respond to you. Thugs and lowlifes can do this (sometimes, but many of them are woman-less too), but so can smart men. Some thugs come by it natural, and some intelligent men either learn it or is a natural himself. Intelligence is not the key, social awareness and adaptability and emotional manipulation ARE.
In essence, don’t think of only the Hollywood produced and created image of smart men being from Revenge of the Nerds. That’s bollocks. Women do go for smart men, if those smart men are socially adept, and not all, in fact not many smart men fit into the easy mold of some pencil neck dweeb, that’s just a convenient fantasy invented by the media.
July 29th, 2014 at 1:09 pm
I came across this: “Mating Intelligence Unleashed: The Role of the Mind in Sex, Dating, and Love” and was thoroughly unimpressed.
jf12 – got any links?
July 29th, 2014 at 1:10 pm
Frank Zappa
Find Her Finer
Find her finer, sneak up behind her,
Unwrap like a mummy ’til you finally unwind her.
Find her, blind her, see who designed her,
Act like a dummy ’til you finally grind her.
If you should see a girl on the street,
Now maybe you might think she is sweet,
But if you wanna tickle her treat,
Now really what should you do?
Don’t never let her know you are smart.
The universe is no place to start.
You gotta play it straight from the heart,
She gwine renunciate you.
That’s why you gotta
Find her finer, sneak up behind her,
Unwrap like a mummy ’til you finally unwind her.
Find her, blind her, see who designed her,
Act like a dummy ’til you finally grind her.
Now maybe you might think this is crude,
And maybe you might think I am rude,
And maybe this approach I have spewed
Is not the one for you.
But believe me later on you’ll find,
As you impress her with your mind,
That you will just be left behind,
For a wiser fool.
So you might as well
Find her finer, sneak up behind her,
Unwrap like a mummy ’til you finally unwind her.
Find her, blind her, see who designed her,
Act like a dummy ’til you finally grind her.
OTOH, there are plenty of high IQ womanizers.
This guy talks about variation amongst cultures. The Chinese and Jews have had an informal IQ eugenics thing going on. http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/01/30/guys-will-your-high-iq-get-you-laid/
The typical BPD ameriskank slut that you might pick up drunk in a bar? Not so much.
July 29th, 2014 at 1:11 pm
To clarify, if a smart man knows how to play the women, women are attracted to him. They can’t help it, any more than they can for the thug.
July 29th, 2014 at 1:18 pm
“We just bought a house 5 months ago. No kids yet.”
Translation: “We chose the nest I wanted near my family. My mind is on breeding, children, and my nest. He, however, is boyishly and selfishly concerned with his selfish sexual needs. My biology is primary and universally accepted as superior.”
“Our lives have been crazy busy though. We spent all spring renovating our new home.”
Translation: “Our lives have been crazy busy with my nest which my husband worked every weekend, all weekend renovating to my specifications. If he’s lucky I will let him have a man-cave in the basement.”
“At my job, I was given nearly double my usual workload . . .”
Translation: “I have a relatively easy, stress free job — as a woman I am entitled to that. My provider husband is supposed to sacrifice his health and life working in at stressful, well paying job so he can provide for my nest. When my job becomes stressful, I deserve special recognition. I look forward either to working part time or not working at all when the nest is complete.”
“I gained some weight in the winter.”
Translation: “Pleasing my husband has taken a backseat to renovating the nest and breeding. He is no longer a sexual being to me: he is a provider and, under the law, he is obligated to provide for my nest and I am not obligated to cater to his selfish needs.”
“This is a side of him I have never seen before”
Translation: “He isn’t behaving like a well-behaved provider boy. I am still near very my prime SMV and Manginas kiss my ass daily.”
“Bitter, immature, full of hatred.”
Translation: “He’s bitter like a little boy. He should man-up and accept his role as provider of my nest. He’s immature because a Real Man would subordinate his selfish, immature sexual needs to my nest.”
“Our sex life HAS tapered in the last few months, but isn’t that allowed.”
Translation: “I was sexual with him for years. It is now time for him to man-up and be a mature, well-behaved provider boy. It’s no longer about him. It’s now all about me and my nest and my future children.”
“We are adults leading busy, stressful lives.”
Translation: “He’s being boyishly immature concerned with trifling things like his dick. It’s time to grow up and be adults and concentrate on my nest, It’s for him to man-up.”
“I cook for him. I do his laundry. I keep our house clean and tidy.”
Translation: “My focus is upon mature, adult things concerning the all-important nest to which his selfish, immature needs take a back seat. Time to man-up.”
July 29th, 2014 at 1:20 pm
What I found in my case is that a smart man with game is more attractive than a man with game and not as smart. At least the first mate thought so. She knew and dated at least three first rank gamers. One of them was me. The other two men in question? Friends of mine.
July 29th, 2014 at 1:33 pm
http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2010/01/30/guys-will-your-high-iq-get-you-laid/
Young women will openly admit that they want a hulking caveman with a club, a rough and stupid type. It’s sexy. That’s what turns them on. Even high-IQ young women are like this. They often marry big dumb macho guys, and spend years of unhappiness. Finally when they are 40 and their sex drive goes down or their they gain some sense, they marry some brainy nerd for his money. And they are a lot happier.
Once they start getting a bit older, women start saying that smart guys are a turn-on. Yet another female self-deception. It’s a lie. I don’t believe it!
Well that wasn’t my experience. But who knows?
I think what this is pointing out is: Game first
And that is correct. Maybe you have to hide your IQ if you don’t have game. As was pointed out up thread – Einstein early on was a chick magnet. It is hinted at in some of his bios.
July 29th, 2014 at 1:33 pm
@M Simon
What I found in my case is that a smart man with game is more attractive than a man with game and not as smart. At least the first mate thought so. She knew and dated at least three first rank gamers. One of them was me. The other two men in question? Friends of mine.
Exactly. The football thug can attract, no question, but if an equally masculine and game aware/natural smart gent is nearby, who demonstrates not only social intelligence but also displays some of the fruits of being smart (i.e. – stylish, well groomed, well dressed, casual wit, aloofness, no neediness, an “in demand” look in his eye), bye bye thug boy.
The more accurate statement I think jl12 actually meant is that women are not attracted to the cartoon characters from Revenge of the Nerds. To be fair, those type do exist, and clearly they are rejected except for the billionaire types like Bill Gates (who, let’s face it, wouldn’t have her without his money).
July 29th, 2014 at 2:02 pm
M Simon
July 29th, 2014 at 1:20 pm
I should add that my two friends were better at game than I was. Their n was probably higher and maybe a lot higher.
July 29th, 2014 at 2:13 pm
“After unplugging via your blog, the most powerful red pillism every man needs to understand is “you can’t negotiate genuine desire”.
That’s very true for me; I automatically get drawn into negotiating relationship (marriage) wants and needs. Then I’m frustrated when negotiated agreements aren’t fulfilled. Reading this post helped me avoid that trap just in time. Refusing to negotiate any further, I moved my thoughts back to the factors that do drive desire: high relative value, social status, attractiveness to other women. Now I try to keep my mind focused on these. Negotiating relationship wants and needs must be a DLV – high value men don’t need to negotiate.
July 29th, 2014 at 2:42 pm
Men with high IQs need to understand this: your intelligence, in and of itself, will neither help nor hinder you.
Women are not directly attracted to intelligence, per se, but they will not reject you because of it, specifically.
When intelligent men have difficulties with women, it is usually for reasons such as:
1) A lack of physical attractiveness. In addition to enhancing your appearance, consider that lifting weights (especially as a solitary activity) can facilitate and enhance your thinking processes, as well.
And, except perhaps in gyms infested by immature and insecure prima donna males, nobody is going to notice or care that you are skinny and weak at first. As long as you are serious and persistent, you will gain respect over time, and more quickly than you might expect.
.
2) Inappropriate (“icky”) social behavior.
A good place to start would be the first section in http://davidvs.net/hobbies/index.shtml . You will find some excellent ideas there, as well as an opportunity to visualize and analyze (you are good at that) what he is suggesting, to determine when it would actually be appropriate.
For example, he discusses “Imagine a boy at a coffee shop who wants to tease a girl he does not know who seems nice. He sneaks up behind her, zerberts the back of her neck, and then walks away without looking back. …”
Notice that “does not know” could mean a somewhat known girl in his social group, or it could mean a random stranger who turns out to be the property of someone unforgiving.
Once you become socially aware, women will not consciously notice that you are intelligent, because you will express your intelligence through successful anticipation of her actual desires and reactions, and thus make both fun and intense activities proceed smoothly.
.
And don’t forget that intelligent women are still primarily women.
I knew a woman at university whose IQ was more than 3 SD above the median. She became a family physician instead of a specialist (because of the backward pressure of her true female nature), and her interests were: 1) being tied up and tickled or spanked, and then fucked, 2) cooking, intelligently, 3) gardening, intelligently, 4) other stuff, intelligently, 5) exclusively intelligent stuff.
July 29th, 2014 at 3:07 pm
eon
July 29th, 2014 at 2:42 pm
Good point about the spankee. Women LOVE being made to feel powerless by a man. It totally excites them. Not all of them want to be dominated by ropes and spankings. But they ALL want to be dominated. It evokes the “my hero” circuit.
BTW the Robert Lindsy link up thread? If you read his post he comes to the conclusion that only 20% can be alphas and he does not feel cut out for it. Basically he has decided to got Beta. Or more likely MGTOW. What he fails to get is that he may not score (for a LTR) an 8 or 9. Or even a 5. But he could get at least a 3. And to keep her he has to game her.
In the dark they are all the same. At least when it comes to slotting.
July 29th, 2014 at 3:16 pm
Could some one explain MGTOW to me? They have taken the red pill and then given up. I don’t get it. Is it that if they can’t get the 8, 9, or 10 they want they don’t want anything? That seems so wimpy to me. It seems like declaring – “if I can’t have a mansion with servants, I’d rather live on the street”. Women don’t seem that dangerous to me – and yes I know the dangers – but game nullifies most of them.
July 29th, 2014 at 3:28 pm
You’re right about 1 and 2, eon, but sending unattractive and socially clueless men to a spergy site for advice on how not be spergy will not work (board games? seriously? and six kinds of flirting? this is sperginess squared). You cannot have blind leading the blind. Unless you’re ready to walk off the cliff.
High intelligence is an asset. Sperginess — emotional and social cluelessness — is not. Unfortunately, many high IQ men are spergs. Instead of acknowledging it and working on it to the extent that’s possible, too many of them flock to manosphere to complain about evil women who fail to be attracted to their intelligence (when in fact women are repulsed by their emotional and social cluelessness).
Telling a sperg to be not spergy is not very effective, but mild to moderate spergs can do things to improve their chances with women. Your advice to work on both physical appearance and social skills is good, but it is debatable whether they can learn the latter from other spergs. To the extent some Red Pill veterans are not sociopathic or spergy themselves, they have some valuable ideas for the emotionally and socially clueless. But those tend to be few and far in between.
An intelligent sperg looking for help with his emotional and social clumsiness is not in a position to evaluate on his own what advice and strategies are most helpful. He would do well enlisting a professional specializing in helping Aspies with social skills training, or maybe his sister or another trusted female who’d coach him in the basics of male-female interactions. Do NOT go for advice to sociopaths or other spergs (unless you’re ready to walk off the cliff).
Of course an intelligent sperg who’s loaded (Gates, Zuckerberg, etc.) will not need to work on his emotional and social skills as much. Piles of money can make women overlook a whole host of male issues.
July 29th, 2014 at 3:45 pm
From first few of fourteen million links from google “smart men get less sex”
http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2007/04/intercourse-and-intelligence.php
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201108/sex-intelligent-intercourse
http://www.medicaldaily.com/research-links-high-sex-drive-high-iq-brainiacs-still-have-less-sex-everyone-else-246164
Easy, even facile, explanation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility-development_controversy
July 29th, 2014 at 4:06 pm
Highly intelligent spergs get less sex, jf12, that’s no surprise to anyone other than spergs themselves.
The less intelligent men do not have the spergy handicaps, and because of that they are more attractive to women.
Another factor is distribution of intelligence and assortative mating. Male spergs may find that female spergs are attracted to them, but since there are fewer female spergs than male, most spergy guys are out of luck.
Average women will be more attracted to average men than to highly intelligent ones. And since there are more average women than average men (bell curve), average men have a surplus of women to choose from, while average women complain that there are not enough “good” men for them.
July 29th, 2014 at 4:14 pm
M Simon:
“Women LOVE being made to feel powerless by a man. It totally excites them. Not all of them want to be dominated by ropes and spankings. But they ALL want to be dominated. It evokes the “my hero” circuit.”
Only if the man is a hero material (i.e., he inspires her admiration through his physical and/or character attributes: strength, achievement, status, competence, and those need to be relative to her station in life — e.g, he does not have to be a genius, but he has to be smarter, more competent, accomplished, etc. than she is). Women do not want to be dominated by men whom they perceive as inferior.
July 29th, 2014 at 4:35 pm
Kerri Kasem (Casey’s daughter) says spreadsheet guy’s wife has CANDIDA
July 29th, 2014 at 4:50 pm
Almost all clinical Asperger’s patients are normal to subnormal in IQ. Statistics do not lie, nor do people who make proper use of proper statistics and proper correlations.
July 29th, 2014 at 4:52 pm
M Simon,
“Women LOVE being made to feel powerless by a man. It totally excites them. Not all of them want to be dominated by ropes and spankings. But they ALL want to be dominated.”
This is true, and the most frequent mistake that people make is to assume that domination, and especially “ropes and spankings”, are something static, instead of something that needs to be adapted and calibrated to a particular woman.
That type of domination should be applied at a level that is just a little above what she believes to be her upper limit, at that time. This level should be just high enough to create a bit of fear as she experiences lack of control, but not so much that she cannot relax into it, but instead shuts down and just waits for it to be over.
.
“Could some one explain MGTOW to me?”
http://no-maam.blogspot.com/2012/02/the-philosophy-of-men-going-their-own.html
.
.
@ Mart
The articles in the top section at that link were written for his sons, and what is appropriate for a young man is not always directly transferable to someone older.
Nevertheless, I have found that a gentle introduction works well for my intended audience.
I do not agree with everything that he says, which is why I identified it as also being a source of “exercises”, of ideas that should be analyzed for appropriateness and applicability.
Expecting an intelligent but socially naive man who follows that link, from deep in page 3 of one of Rollo’s articles, to be able to think critically about such things, while using this site as a reference, is not unreasonable.
July 29th, 2014 at 5:14 pm
jf12
July 29th, 2014 at 3:45 pm
My first GF taught me Game (the rudiments anyway). You have heard that before. What I haven’t mentioned is that I was a student at U Chicago at the time. A place noted for selecting their students only on the basis of brains. No legacy admissions. She liked training virgins. I was.
#2 Son graduated from there with honors. Very bright boy. He knows Game. We discuss it. He is turned off by the modern woman. And besides being bright he is VERY charismatic. People just love being in his presence. Something I never managed.
July 29th, 2014 at 5:20 pm
Intelligence is a measure of “what is there”, and having a lot “there” creates a high contrast and thus spotlights “what is missing”.
Stupid people often have a lot missing, but no one notices, because there is no contrast.
Mart, in addition to his other fixations, is focusing only on those who have stuff missing.
If the missing stuff is not structural, it can be developed, and intelligent people are really good at doing that, once they are given the necessary information.
Intelligent people who have always been complete, or who have become complete, are instead noticed and lauded for their other qualities.
July 29th, 2014 at 5:27 pm
eon
July 29th, 2014 at 4:52 pm
That type of domination should be applied at a level that is just a little above what she believes to be her upper limit, at that time. This level should be just high enough to create a bit of fear as she experiences lack of control, but not so much that she cannot relax into it, but instead shuts down and just waits for it to be over.
So true. You must always exceed what she can handle. But not by too much.
July 29th, 2014 at 5:41 pm
eon
July 29th, 2014 at 4:52 pm
The link is not what I’m looking for. I know the philosophy. What I don’t get is why some men choose that philosophy.
OK I started reading the first chapter. I totally agree about the libertarian stuff. I’ve been one since 1988 or so.
Maybe it is just monkey politics (MGTOW) Only a few want to compete with the top dog(s). The rest will settle for leftovers if they don’t have to fight. I guess that leaves 80% of the women for 20% of the men. Four wives. Now that is an interesting number. Sociologically. Historically.
July 29th, 2014 at 5:42 pm
U Chicago is prestigious no doubt, but not less rigorous in admissions than say Duke.
July 29th, 2014 at 5:42 pm
jf12:
“Almost all clinical Asperger’s patients are normal to subnormal in IQ. Statistics do not lie, nor do people who make proper use of proper statistics and proper correlations.”
Does not change the fact that most highly intelligent men exhibit AS-like deficits. If you are as much as a nerd as you sound, you’re likely AS, even if not diagnosed, with all that it entails.
eon:
The information about dating and flirting on that site is presented in a very spergy fashion, and is not only useless (“You can always look at her, give her a big smile to thank her for being agreeable, release your arms, and say something like “That was adorable” or “You pass the test” — this is guaranteed to both bewilder and repulse a normal girl or woman), but needlessly complicated, making it incomprehensible, even to a sperg (although, unfortunately, some spergs may latch on to it as a gospel and try to follow it exactly as specified, which is the only way they know how).
Again, spergs should understand that they are in no position to offer relational advice. Their best bet is to acknowledge their limitations, which make vast areas of human interpersonal experience alien to them, and seek help from those who understand what human interactions are about. The problem with high IQ spergs, however, is their arrogance, which is part and parcel of their emotional blindness, and which makes them believe that they are experts in everything.
July 29th, 2014 at 5:58 pm
jf12
July 29th, 2014 at 5:42 pm
U Chicago is prestigious no doubt, but not less rigorous in admissions than say Duke.
I was thinking of places with extensive legacy admissions like Harvard. That was my only point. And if it is any comfort to you I didn’t graduate. I got more interested in girls than studying. A year later I joined the Navy and became a Naval Nuke. Two years out of the Navy I joined a MC gang. By ’76 I was working my way up to aerospace engineer (I didn’t know that when I started).
As I said way up thread – I wanted a life of adventure. I got it.
July 29th, 2014 at 6:00 pm
eon:
“Intelligent people who have always been complete, or who have become complete, are instead noticed and lauded for their other qualities.”
Well, there are scarcely any intelligent people “who have always been complete” (whatever that means), but I agree with you that intelligent *accomplished* people are noticed and lauded for their qualities, even if they are not complete. That does not always translate into reproductive success, however, but it gives them a boost.
I focus on what’s missing because it is painfully obvious that most men of the ‘sphere suffer from emotional and social deficits. This why they are in here to begin with, and not out there living happy and fulfilled lives.
There are some predictable sources of such deficits and they are well defined already. Mostly they comprise neuropsychological deficits like autism and/or character disorders like sociopathy and narcissism, and combination of above. An overwhelming number of manospherians suffer from one or more of those, which is immediately apparent to anyone who looks at this area objectively (i.e., from outside).
These men genuinely need help (spergs especially; sociopaths and narcs are beyond hope), but they are not necessarily finding it in the ‘sphere, which instead feeds them the poppycock of game and other fairy tales.
Don’t get me wrong: not all of it is useless, and to the extent Red Pill teaches men to find their personal strengths and grow their passions, becoming the best they can be in life, it is useful. But a lot of it is crap, surrounded by aura of “science,” which is a selective understanding of evolutionary biology and its unclear implications to human life, and which serves as nothing more but a tool of reinforcing one’s biases.
July 29th, 2014 at 6:02 pm
re: “most highly intelligent men exhibit AS-like deficits.”
Incorrect. That’s something unintelligent people like to believe because it feels good.
July 29th, 2014 at 6:03 pm
The problem with high IQ spergs, however, is their arrogance, which is part and parcel of their emotional blindness, and which makes them believe that they are experts in everything.
I have that. Although I tend to avoid being an expert in everything. In addition arrogance is a job qualification in some industries. That was my experience in aerospace.
July 29th, 2014 at 6:08 pm
The moving target of “There must be something wrong with you, because women have great pickers, by definition.” gets a little blurry sometimes. Where is it at now? Oh yeah, *subtle* deficits, unapparent to the casual eye, except to “trained” observers who decide by fiat. “I trained myself to declare any man who had problems with women as being the problem.”
July 29th, 2014 at 6:13 pm
M Simon,
“So true. You must always exceed what she can handle. But not by too much.”
Another important point is that the “ropes and spankings” variety is 95% psychological, when done correctly, in an intimate (non porn) setting.
A lightweight implement that just stings and burns like crazy (but does no actual damage) can be effective forever.
There is just one important caveat: after you are done, turn her toward a mirror and say something like “see, this is what happens to naughty girls”.
Women really like to admire their butts afterward, and they feel cheated if all of the marks have faded by the time they get around to it.
July 29th, 2014 at 6:25 pm
General intelligence, emotional intelligence, and social intelligence are not merely correlated but also collocated. The exact same brain regions do the exact same things, for different purposes.
http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2014/07/27/brain.awu207.full.pdf+html
July 29th, 2014 at 6:27 pm
Almost all highly intelligent people tend to be highly intelligent in all areas.
http://www.psych.utoronto.ca/users/reingold/courses/intelligence/cache/1198gottfred.html
July 29th, 2014 at 6:28 pm
Tell me when to stop, or is it a safe word?
July 29th, 2014 at 6:40 pm
jf12
July 29th, 2014 at 6:28 pm
Tell me when to stop, or is it a safe word?
If it is some one you connect with you can FEEL when to stop. If it is just an acquaintance you need rules. I say this from the stand point of the (mind) games I play with the first mate. If you are attentive you can feel what she is thinking. Hard to explain. Maybe a certain set and level of pheromones go with certain thoughts. It has gotten to the point that she NEVER tells me I’m wrong when I tell her what she is thinking.
The state you are looking for is to get her to feel that it is hopeless to resist and she wants to do what ever you ask to PROVE herself to you. So she will be loved.
July 29th, 2014 at 6:45 pm
@M Simon, you asked for links for the idea that smart men get less sex. Apparently that point was conceded since the discussion shifted to “then smart men must have something wrong with them” which I’m busy with links disproving. I’m asserting that I feel comfortable stopping with the high value I’ve already provided, or I could continue with the beatings until morale improves.
July 29th, 2014 at 6:55 pm
@ Mart
“Well, there are scarcely any intelligent people “who have always been complete” (whatever that means)…”
Umm, it means those who don’t have much “missing”.
My comment has only five sentences. Reading comprehension much?
And why am I not surprised that a sperg like you has little contact with intelligent and socially adept people?
.
“I focus on what’s missing because it is painfully obvious that most men of the ‘sphere suffer from emotional and social deficits. … An overwhelming number of manospherians suffer from one or more of those, which is immediately apparent to anyone who looks at this area objectively (i.e., from outside.”
“Don’t get me wrong: not all of it is useless … But a lot of it is crap, surrounded by aura of “science,” … which serves as nothing more but a tool of reinforcing one’s biases.”
So, you managed to classify all “Manospherians”, did you, you putz.
By “from outside” you mean like from Jezebel, right?
Run along back to Feministing and ask them for some original material.
July 29th, 2014 at 7:20 pm
Mart,
Just curious…2 questions
1. How did you come across this blog?
2. Why are you here?
I can’t imagine going to feministing or Jezebel, and posting numerous comments, so I wonder what motivates someone with your obvious perspective to show up and comment here.
July 29th, 2014 at 7:28 pm
jf12
July 29th, 2014 at 6:45 pm
Well I have yet to concede the point. I’m still studying. And in any case I couldn’t find anything (in a quick search) on smart men with game. Which is in fact the pertinent question here. Since I did well despite being at least aerospace engineer smart.
July 29th, 2014 at 7:42 pm
Could some one explain MGTOW to me? They have taken the red pill and then given up. I don’t get it. Is it that if they can’t get the 8, 9, or 10 they want they don’t want anything?
Attraction floors exist. Much higher for women than for men, but for most men they exist. If a man’s attraction floor is, say, a 4, and he can only attract and maintain a 3 or less, his options are (1) become more attractive to attract 4s and 5s or (2) if he doesn’t want to do that (or can’t depending on circumstances), not play.
July 29th, 2014 at 7:53 pm
@ M Simon
http://www.pauljanka.com/about-paul/
Harvard Grad, Physics,
July 29th, 2014 at 8:03 pm
@Mart
“most men of the ‘sphere suffer from emotional and social deficits” more sweeping generisations how is it that these inferences came about im intrigued
And again “overwhelming number of manospherians suffer from one or more of those,”
“ But a lot of it is crap, surrounded by aura of “science,” which is a selective understanding of evolutionary biology and its unclear implications to human life, and which serves as nothing more but a tool of reinforcing one’s biases”
Would you think that having a plausible explanation for the behavioural changes of the 25-35 year old female might just prevent you from making a life altering decision.
July 29th, 2014 at 8:47 pm
jf12:
See research by Baron-Cohen on the male brain and autism: http://cogsci.bme.hu/~ivady/bscs/read/bc.pdf
Being male is a built-in predisposition to autism, for some more so than others. Your link blitzkrieg and your willful obtuseness (“The exact same brain regions do the exact same things, for different purposes” — so what?) suggest sperginess in a dire need of self-defense at the moment.
Morpheus:
Any responses to your questions would have nothing to do with my arguments, so they are irrelevant. Nice try at deflection, though.
eon:
Your offended comments indicate that it is both a sore and blind spot for you.
sure:
To the extent Red Pill ideology is rooted in real science, including sociology, psychology, anthropology, and ethnography, and geared toward genuine self-help, it can be useful. So if those changes you have in mind exists and can be confirmed by verifiable data, and not just Bob’s complaints about his wimminz, it is good.
But a lot of what’s passed around as anointed Red Pill wisdom is just self-serving rationalizations, often veering toward misogynist folklore (e.g., the supposedly female tendency to follow the herd — as if men were immune to social influences; if nothing else, the Minter affair itself, see above, is a great example of the manospherian herd mentality; or the disavowal of emotions as some kind of feminine glitches, proving their irrationality; while human beings of both genders are emotional, although in different ways; and so on).
Use your judgment to separate the wheat from the chaff. And keep in mind that men who understand women and/or have successful relationships with them do not spend time in the ‘sphere.
July 29th, 2014 at 8:54 pm
and/or have successful relationships with them do not spend time in the ‘sphere.
How would you define a “successful” relationship? What differentiates a successful relationship from an unsuccessful one?
Question for you. From YOUR perspective, would a relationship where the guy has blue balls, asks his wife’s permission for everything, and works half the month to pay his mortgage, but the wife is haappppy….is that a “successful” relationship in your view?
July 29th, 2014 at 8:56 pm
Morpheus:
Any responses to your questions would have nothing to do with my arguments, so they are irrelevant. Nice try at deflection, though
You seem halfway intelligent to me. Assuming that is true, you should be smart enough to know that absolutely no one here takes you or your “arguments” serious or is going to be persuaded by you on anything. Given that, I was just curious what you are getting out of commenting here.
July 29th, 2014 at 8:56 pm
correction: seriously
July 29th, 2014 at 8:59 pm
I said to my ex-wife a couple years ago: “If I had dominated you when we were married, we would probably still be married.”
She agreed.
That would never have occurred to me before I read the ‘sphere.
Besides the usual cultural crap, my blue pill indoctrination was aggravated that much more by feminism in college.
Doing a marriage on the basis of ‘equality’ with a Chinese woman with an accent didn’t work very well. I blew a good opportunity with a more traditional woman because of a lack of knowledge.
As for “a selective understanding of evolutionary biology and its unclear implications to human life”, red pill truths are being confirmed as such by my experimentation in the real world since my eyes have been opened.
Perhaps some manospherians have issues, and some truths aren’t useful to me because of my individual quirks, but I have learned much of value.
It (Mart) reminds me of all the low carb bashing and Taubes refuting in the paleosphere. The fact remains that paleo continues to be popular because it works well to normalize body fat long term for most people. You can cite all the studies you want that it is wrong, but real world experience proves otherwise.
As an engineer, the bottom line for me is does it work?
July 29th, 2014 at 9:07 pm
As for “a selective understanding of evolutionary biology and its unclear implications to human life”, red pill truths are being confirmed as such by my experimentation in the real world since my eyes have been opened.
Well, the thing is, unlike Mart’s claims, most of Red Pill concepts don’t originate from esoteric evolutionary psychology or whatever. Those are the after the fact explanations. The origins come from actually testing in the real world with real women and seeing how they react.
It (Mart) reminds me of all the low carb bashing and Taubes refuting in the paleosphere. The fact remains that paleo continues to be popular because it works well to normalize body fat long term for most people. You can cite all the studies you want that it is wrong, but real world experience proves otherwise.
As an engineer, the bottom line for me is does it work?
Exactly. Truth is what is useful.
July 29th, 2014 at 9:20 pm
” And keep in mind that men who understand women and/or have successful relationships with them do not spend time in the ‘sphere.”
That’s like saying “successful engineers don’t go to college or participate in professional societies and forums and don’t mentor junior engineers”.
July 29th, 2014 at 9:24 pm
Additionally, there is most likely some non-trivial amount of relationships that are “successful” by superficial survey standards or feminine imperative standards, but where for the guy the quote about “quite desperation” applies.
Always important to remember that all “advice” from women is inherently solipsistic.
July 29th, 2014 at 11:38 pm
@Mart, re: Baron-Cohen.
What specific number in your link is it that you think I ought to be impressed about? The far less than 1 in 200 children who are high-functioning autistic spectrum including Asperger’s, starting at 70 IQ? Gimme a clue. What is it you want me to think affects your thinking about tiny numbers that makes you think they are big, other than your wishful thinking?
July 30th, 2014 at 2:58 am
the supposedly female tendency to follow the herd
But they do. I ask the first mate every time she sees a chick come on to me if that doesn’t make me more attractive to her. Her reply is invariably, “Yes”.
Another way to put it: one of the best ways to attract women is to already have one.