To start off today’s topic I thought I’d repost a Red Pill reddit thread I received a link-back to last week. Rather than give you my own summary of this guy’s situation, I felt the impact would be more significant by posting it in its entirety; and also because I don’t believe the guy really got a fair hearing on his original post.
I posted this earlier on another subreddit but it ended up getting removed because of fighting in the comments. I’ll sum up what happened thus far. I met my wife 7 years ago, she was extremely picky when it came to sex. She told me she only has been with 1 other guy before. She would never give a blow job, only would do certain positions and found almost every sex act degrading. I was frustrated by this, but I really liked her and hoped over the years she would open up sexually. Over the years, it never got any better but I learned to get over it. Well I ended up finding an old video from her college days of her engaging in group sex with 6 other people 5 guys 1 girl. In the video she has anal sex, oral sex, gets double teamed, and yells multiple times in the video she is a “I am a filthy whore.” All of it she was enthusiastic about it. I ended up feeling really sad. I can understand certain stuff people don’t want to do, but it wasn’t the fact she didn’t want to do them. She didn’t want to do them with me but every other guy she was their whore. I was angry hurt and I ended up saying some stupid shit to my wife.
I asked her if she could drop our daughter off at her sister’s house because I wanted to talk to her. She asked why, I told her we’d discuss after she came back.
I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, so I’ll try my best to sum it up. I was drinking a bit before she came which wasn’t the best idea.
Me: Is there anything about your past you have been hiding about me?
Her: Why are we talking about this?
Me: I just want to know were you in any type of porn or anything like that?
Her: are you taking drugs?
Me: I found your video from college with the other guys. I don’t know who you are anymore and I feel ill being around you.
She starts crying.
Me: Do you have anything to say?
She continues to cry. This was pointless I go to grab my keys to leave. And she tries to stop me.
Me: If you don’t want me to leave then I need you to be 100% honest with me, and tell me why you lied to me for all these years.
She: I didn’t want you to think I was a slut
Me: I would have been perfectly fine if you told me, I would have loved to have done those wild things with you. Look I get it I don’t turn you on like those other guys do. You liked sucking their dicks but not mine.
She: It’s not that, I didn’t want you to think less of me.
Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.
She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.
Me: I don’t want you to do it because you feel like you have to. I want someone that actually desires me.
She: I can change I promise don’t ruin our marriage over this we can work things out. We can go to marriage counseling seriously talk to me.
Me: Marriage counseling won’t change how you feel about me. Look I will try marriage counseling but I want a trial separation for now.
She: Please don’t do this. Don’t throw away our marriage for what I did in college please.
Me: Stop fucking acting like it’s a one time thing. Be honest with me how many guys did you fuck before me. How many guys dicks have you sucked, and how many guys have you let fuck you in the ass.
She: why does it matter, I said I’ll do them with you
Me: I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.
She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change.
Me: I am not divorcing you but I want a trial separation for now, and I want to see how things go, right now I feel sick looking at you.
I ended up leaving my wife kept trying to stop me. She kept on begging saying I could do anything I wanted with her, it was truly pathetic and I lost all respect for my wife the way she was trying to manipulate me with sex.
I am staying at a motel right now; I have been getting constant calls from my wife. She has been asking me where I am, if I tell her than she is going to confront me and I don’t feel like I am ready for that. I feel so fucking drained. I feel bad saying those things to my wife but I don’t know what else to do I am so fucking hurt over this.
As I said before I wouldn’t care if she had a promiscuous past, seriously, wouldn’t care but the fact she did all those things for other guys but doesn’t do them for me hurts me the deepest.
I don’t see how this marriage can be recovered. I can’t change her attraction to me. My father has recently has been diagnosed with a tumor in his lung, and that has already been stressing me out pretty badly.
Please tell me what exactly I can do, my confidence as a man has been destroyed. Before I found out about this, I tried to get my wife to open up sexually but she completely shot it down. I really believe she isn’t attracted to me in the way she was to those other guys. That’s why she felt completely fine being “their whore” but won’t give me a blow job. I want a woman that looks at me lustfully, not that has sex with me to fulfill “wifey duties.”
I don’t feel entitled to other types of sex with my wife. I want her to want to do them. Now even if she does do them it will be out of guilt, not out of desire. I don’t see how we can recover our marriage. I feel really shitty that I won’t be able to seem my daughter as much, especially during her younger years.
I have already made some calls to reroute my paychecks and get my finances in order if we do go for a divorce. My brother works at a big law firm, I am thinking about contacting him to at least see what I should be doing now. Thing is once I call him it becomes the point of no return, if I tell my family members than their image of my wife becomes destroyed. Also I’d have to check because right now she is dependent on me for health insurance, and I don’t want her to be deprived of that if we do divorce, because she has been having health issues. I don’t want to ruin anything but I can’t see how things would ever be okay. If you don’t have any advice for me and are just going to be judgmental please don’t waste your time commenting. I know I said some hurtful things in there but you don’t know the level of hurt I am feeling right now. I have apologized to my wife since then, but I don’t see how our relationship can be recovered.
Edit – I want to make things work, between me and my wife. I understand she doesn’t want to do certain sex acts. I am considering proposing to her the idea of an open marriage. That way we can still be together as a family and we both can have the fulfilling sex lives we want.
There’s a lot going on in this situation, but I think the first thing that should be addressed here is that, personally, I think these sorts of past life revelations are a lot more common than most men are comfortable in admitting. I wish I could say this was the first time I’ve ever encountered a story like his — it’s actually the 7th time, and four of those were personal accounts from men I’ve counseled.
As our culture becomes more technologically adept, electronic records – whether they’re ‘self-shots’, incriminating GNO pics uploaded to various forms of social media, male-stripper party videos, or amateur / semi-pro pornography – will have an increasingly greater role in filling the pieces of the puzzle that constitutes a woman’s relational and sexual past. The real problem will cease to be doing any actual detective work, and more about what a (Beta) man will allow himself to believe about his ‘special snowflake’ in contrast to the gestalt knowledge of women’s behaviors on whole.
There was a recent article posted on Return of Kings by Emmanuel Goldstein detailing the Game necessity of presuming all women are sluts. In light of stories like this it’s hard not to see the pragmatism in that, but at least when you are single, Game-aware and spinning plates you have the luxury and (should have) the foresight to know that even the Good Girls ‘Do’ have the inclination to go feral with the hot Alpha in the foam cannon party in Cancun on Spring Break when she’s in the proliferative phase of her ovulatory cycle.
Predictably, I’m sure the “ooh, ooh men do it too!” wing of the critics gallery will be the first to cry foul, as they ever have, about my drawing attention to the feral dynamics of sexual side of feminine hypergamy. And were it only about one side of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy (Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks) they might have a point, but it’s the other half of the Hypergamic equation, the part that requires long term male provisioning paired with emotional investment that sets men’s short term sexual appetites apart from women’s short term Hypergamy.
The Best of Her
The author of this reddit thread is feeling the sharp end of that Hypergamic equation. While I’m sure there will be every effort made to paint this man’s wife as some fucked up, emotionally damaged, and conveniently, sexually abused victim (we don’t know this, but that was the default association in the comments of his original thread), the operative I’m driving at here isn’t about her individualized experiences, but the methodology she and all women use to justify their sexual pluralism.
Prior to the advent of technologies that could evidentially prove women’s sexual exploits (often proudly so now) the more visceral aspects of a woman’s sexuality, and the inconvenient hindbrain/hormonal prompts that motivate them, could be kept secret well enough to deceive a man with provisioning potential to commit to the long term security the other half of her Hypergamy demands. As the technology to record this becomes more ubiquitous, more permanent and fluid in its use, as men become more interconnected by it, and as women enjoy more self-affirmation from it, rationalizing her past indiscretions becomes more of an imperative.
Men saturated and conditioned over the better half of their lifetime by the feminine imperative to be the convenient cuckolds to women’s Hypergamy – men like the author of this confession – have an ego-invested interest in presuming the woman they pair with will be “giving him the best of herself” once his ship comes in and all of his patience and equalist beliefs finally pay off.
Only, men like this discover too late, usually well after they realize their commitment has hamstrung their SMV peak potential, that not only have they been a retroactive cuckold (sometimes even moralistically proud to be so), but they’ve been socially conditioned to be one, by their mothers, their emasculated fathers, their sisters, female friends, teachers and the whole of the feminine imperative’s effort for most of their lives.
One of the reasons I, and most of the manosphere, receive so much scorn from plugged-in, feminine primary society is that we risk to expose this process. This author’s story is the inconvenient truth of a pluralistic feminine sexual strategy. Women’s capacity to cash out of the SMP, to raise children, to create a semblance of a family life so conflicted with her single life, on what she thinks should be her terms, all rides on keeping men with a long term provisioning potential (greater Betas) ignorant of their pre-cuckolding and the conditioning that took so long to convince them would be their responsibility.
I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.
The primary reason men become preoccupied with women’s sexual past is rooted in ‘getting the best’ she has to offer him sexually. There is certainly more aspects to this (fidelity, secure attachment, etc.), but as I’ve stated before, all men want a slut, they just want her to be HIS slut. Once the belief that he’s getting the best sex she has to offer him is dispelled, viscerally and definitively, the nature of the Desire Dynamic comes into sharp focus.
I Want You to Want Me
Naturally, once a woman’s true sexual capacity is revealed after the establishment of her normalized, married sexuality, her first impetus is to preserve the provisioning she enjoyed while ‘her secret’ was working for her.
Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.
She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.
[…] She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change
What we’re reading here is the script for negotiated desire. Her real desire isn’t for his satisfaction or any real resolution for the deception of her sexual pluralism, but rather a solipsistic maintaining of a normalcy for herself. Our author has no other rationalizations to fall back on, denial of his conditions are no longer sufficient, and he begins to realize a cruel red pill truth – you cannot negotiate genuine desire.
He wants her to want him, he wants her to desire sex with him with the same verve and enthusiasm she did with other men in her videos. He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus. Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place.
December 7th, 2013 at 1:40 am
@ DeNihilist
That depends on when you think escalation and “sexual experiences” actually begin.
That is why things like eye contact, body language, kino, etc. are so important from the start. The point of the study is that women don’t feel desire until the man does something active and escalates. A good PUA is doing some form of physical and psychological escalation and creating at least a low sexual vibe right from the opener. Why? Because if he doesn’t…no tingles (desire).
But, it is also called a “tingle”…and not a flooding, hungry, vagina…for a reason. Male sexuality is a switch – we’re on (hard and DTF) or off. Women are often more of a dial – increasing slowly over time. So, just because you give her a “tingle” and she desires something a little more physical (like kissing), doesn’t mean she’s gone from eye contact to “enthusiastic” DTF like a guy.
So, unless I’m missing something, this confirms “tingles”. It just says that guys usually have to do something active to get them – and keep escalating to increase them during seduction. But, to my reading, that is an essential belief of game too.
By the way…what would you consider to be the other two legs of game?
December 7th, 2013 at 9:37 am
Thought this song was appropriate – for this Man and lots of guys that go through this stuff….but you have to listen to the words…
December 7th, 2013 at 10:11 am
Hi,
Firstly I’d like to say thank you to all the contributors here, both to the more intellectual/theoretical debaters and those who have contributed stories from their own lives. A special thanks of course to Rollo for the book which I bought and have read once, soon to be read again I think!
I am a beta male at best! I haven’t really looked into the other categories (gamma, omega etc) but I’m sure I’d find too many of my characteristics in there to want to even know! I first came across the Red Pill from watching the Nick Krauser interview on London Real six months ago, the beginning of a process which has turned my mental world on it’s head. Not that I’m in any way close to enlightenment but the words of Adyashanti sum up my recent experiences:
“Enlightenment is a destructive process. It has nothing to do with becoming better or being happier. Enlightenment is the crumbling away of untruth. It’s seeing
through the facade of pretence. It’s the complete eradication of everything we
imagined to be true.”
Just to give you a picture of myself, I’m 46, look around 40. I’m cute and can be a good talker but am only 5’8. I’m shy around women and have only had seven sexual partners in my life, two of those were 3-4 year relationships.
Living Tree, I’m not as smart or articulate as you or some of the other philosophical debaters on here so forgive me if I keep things simple/personal. I’m trying to work out some truths not present a fixed position.
Every woman I’ve been with and every female friend I have has had a more varied, exciting, promiscuous sex life than I. Not that they are physically more attractive than me but their opportunities, compared to a shy man’s, have been much greater. A woman who is willing to have a ONS or no-strings sex can quiteasily do that with a man 1 or 2 points above her on the physical scale. Women so often use their sex as a weapon, even in relationships. One girlfriend cheated on me because I was too needy/beta/suffocating her and another because I didn’t give her enough attention and she needed ‘validation’ by having a ONS with someone I knew. There’s never a lack of ‘wolves’ out there, sniffing around any half-decent looking woman. On the other hand if, as a guy, you don’t have game or aren’t a young Adonis/rock star type….well good luck with that one! See how many women will ever take the risk of approaching you directly.
It’s not just about being needy…believe me, through my shyness, I can come across as more aloof than needy. When you say non-neediness is all a man needs, that’s simplifying things! If he’s not of the ‘chosen’ as Krauser says he needs serious game…not needy but not aloof….great timing & perception skills etc.
Women will always be selecting the alphas for fun and the betas for drudge. Us betas either have to suck that up (accept it as you say), learn some game or just get out of the SM. I think deep down us betas have always known that women’s pussies really tingle in the presence of an alpha. Even in the relative chastity of the past, you couldn’t hide a blush or a glance held slightly too long! But at least men knew that the woman, through social convention/fear of pregnancy etc, would be more likely to leave things at the level of fantasy, thus letting us avoid the reality of her true desires in our every day lives. As the evolutionists say, it kind of helped civilisation to progress by giving betas more of a stake. I understand that women also had to sacrifice for this and put up with some pretty shitty behaviour for men, but it’s not as if the coal miners, sailors and soldiers had an easy life either! It was always those at the top, both men and women, who had the best of things.
But Living Tree, nowadays, if we want to settle down, us betas have to accept that our partners will have experienced things that we can only fantasise about in their younger days and also live with the uncertainty that if things don’t go just right for her, she can use her added ‘pussy power’ to bring the whole thing crashing down.
As you say that’s the new reality and things ain’t going back to where they used to be. It’s not that things were great before….I only have to look at my parent’s committed but loveless marriage to understand that. But can’t you see that for us betas there’s a problem here? Those with game can accept the new reality more easily because they’re having a great time with hot women. Some of us feel like there’s a wild party going on down the road, but we aren’t invited! At best we might get to play white knight to a woman who’s got incredible memories of her glory days but one hell of a long hangover from it too!
Personally, over the last four years I’ve withdrawn from the SM. Yes I’m lonely and frustrated, but unless I can re-enter with some sort of game I just can’t do it any more. You might think I’m immature, fucked-up or whatever but that’s my reality and my choice at the moment.
And by the way, I don’t hate women. I know it’s not popular in the manosphere but I have some great women friends, a couple of whom are ex’s….they give me a lot and I love them…I just don’t want to be with them in a sexual relationship. One of them cheated on me and left me when she was 28 (I was 33) as she wanted more/wilder experiences. Four years ago she suggested we get back together and when I said no as I wanted to be someone who really ‘wanted’ me she suggested I was a narcissist. She’s now 42 with a beautiful baby, but married (to allow him to stay in the country) to a itinerant musician, who smokes joints all day and lives off her savings! We’re still friends and I harbour no ill-feelings towards her but I know that if I was willing to try again she’d jump at the chance. She always said we were ‘soul-mates’ and that I was her best relationship. Sorry but no way! Friends but nothing more.
Anyway, sorry for the over-long post. I also realise that, compared to the high intellectual standards round here, my post is a bit muddled, but it’s from the heart. Peace and love to you all guys and girls! Let’s try not to give in to hate and bitterness as some of the worst feminists and women-haters have done.
And once again Rollo….thank you so much for (painfully!) helping to open my eyes.
December 7th, 2013 at 10:49 am
@Muttley
Hey thanks for the narrative…truth of matter is “happiness” is yours, with or without a woman and always remember, loneliness is choice, not your “lot in life”.
All that being said, do not waste more time getting out of your “shyness shell” – be reserved, be aloof, be whatever you want to be – but shy needs to be taken off the list. Personal opinion – put that on your goal list. And what I’m doing, it look at every interaction big and small as personal non-shy training.
Thanks for sharing – and I’m a bit older than you – but I can tell you, there are lots of woman, just know what your goals are with them. Create the plan, work the plan, be flexible.
December 7th, 2013 at 11:01 am
Wow, that was awful. I see no hope for that marriage. He doesn’t even know who she is.
Lying about one’s sexual past is more a “female” thing (because it’s usually more important to men). But this isn’t “female” behavior, it’s the behavior of a fraud. She can’t be trusted. What else has she lied about? Does she lie every day/every third day/only about important things…he’ll never know, and it’s pointless to wonder. I feel for him.
December 7th, 2013 at 12:54 pm
@Tin Man
Cheers!
December 7th, 2013 at 1:05 pm
Matt,
How did you take my assertion:
December 7th, 2013 at 1:09 pm
blockquote fix:
How did you take my assertion:
Into this:
You can do better than strawman. So, I agree with most of your refutal, too. Since Im not saying that all women, nor that the prettiest women are ALSO the more depraved… what’s there to argue?
and
True
No girl is required to be depraved to be with a man though. Unless she’s pining specifically for a depraved man, which makes her depraved herself. Do you agree?
And beautiful girls slut it up too, as long as they are in a highly competition market, say, surrounded by other pretty girls and with only a handful of mega top males to compete for. Same dynamics, just that is isolated from the rest of the poblation.
But the bottom line is that the better hand you have, the more you can make things work your way. If the girl is prude and relationship based and high in the SMV she’s likely to get away with it. If she’s a sexual carnivore or she’s likely to get away with that too, same if she likes depravation, drugs, etc.
So:
December 7th, 2013 at 1:13 pm
Dr J., thanks for the response. That’s why I come here, to learn and share.
Rejecting the fear of rejection.
and not giving a rats ass for the person your fucking.
December 7th, 2013 at 1:14 pm
Matt,
If a woman is being shit on during sex, with an alpha enough man, that’s because that’s the kind of sex and the kind of man she’s after.
Women dont like to receive dominance from inferior males.
Women love getting dominance from superior males.
If a superior male does the “shit on” and she stays, that means she likes it. There’s absolutely no force holding down women to stay in relationships nowadays other than their own impulses, their own attraction and their own happiness.
If the guy is “alpha enough” that means she has to work to get HIM. She picked a guy who shits on the bed. Had sex with him got shited on and is making plans for a second date. She loves it.
If there was depravity she’s totally willing. In women being willing-to count as an action. For whatever they are willing to they will find a man to do the deed, or in this case to do the pooing.
December 7th, 2013 at 1:14 pm
lmao Must read!!…
http://nymag.com/thecut/2013/07/texting-exes-social-media-generation.html?test=true
December 7th, 2013 at 2:29 pm
Muttley, you’re a smart guy and clearly a decent human being. So that’s two huge pluses on your side. Another positive is that you know how to say no, and you’re prepared to be alone. Being psychologically strong enough to say “fuck it, I’d rather be alone than a sucker” is a good thing.
The following is not necessarily directed at you personally, it’s just a bunch of thoughts I feel like rattling off right now
One of the things that continues to help me is simply being vigilant about the negatives over which I might have some choice. If you can do this and take steps to minimize them, you will make a great leap forward, without having to feel like you’re “faking it”. You’re simply being honest with yourself and working to remove counterproductive obstacles. Like Viktor Frankl says, even if you can’t control your circumstances you can choose how to respond to them.
Tin’s right about shyness… one thing that might help is to think of how the word “shy” really means “short of the mark” or “missing something”. Once I saw it that way I refused to apply it to myself, either out loud to others or inside my head. Same thing with “sorry”. If I fuck up I apologize, but I do my best not to be “sorry”. As in “a sorry excuse”. Plenty more of that kind of stuff in all our heads if you listen for it. It’s a work in progress, pruning one’s thoughts as you might a Bonsai tree.
Study body language, and before you go all crazy trying to read people and using the knowledge you think you have to manipulate them (and I don’t think you would, like I said I think you’re a decent bloke), learn how to identify the nonverbal cues you’re sending out that aren’t doing you any favours. Work to minimize them. It’s amazing what that can do. Just refuse to send signals of weakness. The people physically around you are not entitled to your every inner thought. As a matter of fact, I bet they don’t want to know about them. Funny how this works, if you minimize your own nervousness cues, people don’t pick up on them (subconsciously) and amplify them or associate them with you (subconsciously). I like to think of this as almost a silent martial art that’s entirely defensive, like Body Language Aikido. It’s also just good nonverbal etiquette. If you’re nervous it’s simply not polite to let on, because it makes other people nervous. Most nervous people don’t realize this (it might even make them more nervous), but the truth is, when you’re in a social space, it pays to be considerate. It’s like not farting in front of people. But nobody – not even the best actor or politician – is 100% perfect at it all the time. Non-verbal communication is an endlessly fascinating subject.
Exercise. Study and eliminate the lifestyle factors that get in the way of what your natural testosterone levels should be. Forget about the bullshit world of a million and a half ways to “amp up” your test, start by getting your body to where it wants to be.
Get out of debt. It’s better to live a low-velocity lifestyle that you have more control over than to be in debt.
These types of things (and there are lots more) all have in common one factor: they are all within your personal sphere and under your own control, and improving them will honestly help open the world up to you in incredible ways
December 7th, 2013 at 2:37 pm
“…while 6-7 Beta sex partners drift off into obscurity when she pair-bonds with a sufficiently Alpha husband or partner….”
**Rollo, do you actually believe this? Not rhetorical in the least bit.. I am struggling with this right now in my relationship. Something inside me tells me to move on. I truly believe I am engaging in Madonna/ Whore thought process all over again. Everything that she says and acts and that I witness tells me I am literally the only Alpha she’s ever had and is addicted to me and my personalty and my cock for that matter. Still doesn’t ease my mind. I just keep reverting to the Madonna/Whore. It’s like a mind fuck…do they really drift off into obscurity…the past men? Im so ashamed inside that one man has carnal knowledge let alone 5 or 6. Animals don’t even share themselves that much, so why should I accept that modern women do without consequence.
Men are the real romantics. Makes me sad.
December 7th, 2013 at 3:25 pm
@ D-Man
Thanks! We keep chipping away at it don’t we?
December 7th, 2013 at 4:30 pm
@ DeNihilist
Isn’t the opposite true? That sexual escalation – a key tenate of game – will arouse desire?
December 7th, 2013 at 4:44 pm
I’m afraid you don’t understand very much, Jeremy. But, you don’t have all the facts, so how could you. I’m about as far from a gold digger as you could find. But, several men of means have found me and offered to buy my house for me, buy a different house for us, flaunted their money teasing me with what they could buy me, etc. IF things worked out. At a certain point, it actually offended me. Its like a women who wears a low cut shirt but is all “uh uh uh no touchy look only” to a man. I haven’t cared to be bought; its insulting. Just as a woman teasing a man with her body is after a certain point. So, while there were times of weakness (mostly when I was extremely tired) when I considered a relationship with someone who would “take care” of me, I felt it would be wrong because it wouldn’t be fair to the man if I wasn’t truly in love. So, once again, everyone has had a fit over NOTHING. No woman is going to object to her man making money, but its not something you want held over your head as some kind of bait.
December 7th, 2013 at 7:24 pm
I am going to tell you exactly what’s going on here and respond to some comments at the same time……..
Living tree said:
“He was not defrauded though, I will not concede that point. Call it victim blaming if you need to, but she was a mess right from the start, from the VERY beginning. She never once gave him what he wanted, or ever gave him any impression that she would ever be what he wanted, so WHY WOULD HE EVER THINK THAT IT IS A WISE INVESTMENT?”
*** I have to agree. She was screwed up from the start and he was a desperate fool for ever entering into a marriage with a woman who was not attracted to him. Her lack of sexual enthusiasm back when he married her was proof that she was either a prude who would be no fun in the bedroom or that she was absolutely not attracted to him.
A woman who is sexually healthy, with no sexual hangups and who is crazy about you will be VERY enthusiastic about sex.
roe said: “This woman’s anti-slut conditioning was too weak to keep her from gangbanging 5 guys on camera, but was too strong to overcome to give her husband a blowjob.”
***No. You’re way off. This isn’t about her “anti-slut conditioning”, as you put it. I’ll say it again and again. SHE WAS NEVER SEXUALLY ATTRACTED TO HIM TO BEGIN WITH! If she married a man who turned her on, she wouldn’t be able to help herself and she would enthusiastically do all kinds of dirty things in the bedroom with him. She married not for love but for money. Having a provider that she was sexually attracted to would have been a bonus for her but she couldn’t find a man to marry who was both, so she chose the provider. She is a woman that lacks scruples so she wanted a sucker. She found one.
She very likely cheated on him but if not, the bottom line is, she lied to him, which was wrong, and he was stupid for marrying what he thought was a prude. It was only after he found the video that he realized she was only a prude with him. Either way, the reason a woman doesn’t meet your needs isn’t important. IF A WOMAN DOESN’T MEET YOUR NEEDS WHY WOULD YOU CHOOSE TO MARRY HER? Only weak-minded desperate men make idiotic decisions like that.
These kind of morons are the same ones that fuel the monster known as “female entitlement” to the point where women make ridiculous demands. Then a real man with a spine comes along and he either will dump her if he discovers from the very start a lack of sexual interest, or if she’s sexually enthusiastic, it lasts a while until he sees the serious character flaws rear their ugly head.
Living tree said:
She feels ashamed by what she did in the past, so much so that it is stifling her ability to even admit that she wants to be sexual!
*** Hahahaha. Yeah right. So ashamed she held on to her gangbang video for 7 years after the fact. The level of naivety and self-deception in this comment are so ridiculous that you could probably say “Just kidding.” and half of the people on here would really believe you were just kidding. I wouldn’t though. A lot of people will say “just kidding” after they’ve put their foot in their mouth and this would be one of those times.
Jeremy:
You perversely believe that it is demeaning to offer your body to a man as part of a marriage contract. It’s not, it’s the greatest gift you can give a man and until you’ve actually offered it you have no idea what you’re giving up.
*** This is a delusion that too many men share. That when a woman is having sex with you, she’s somehow doing you a favor. Women enjoy sex, or at least most women that are sexually healthy do. That’s how Nature made them. If this weren’t true, the species would have died out before it even had a chance to get started.
That being said, sex should be a natural part of a relationship. If it isn’t, then the relationship isn’t healthy. You need to find someone who is a match for you sexually. And sex has NOTHING to do with a contract. What are you trying to do? Reason with her or bargain or negotiate with her until she gets all hot and bothered? That’s the part that comes automatically. The attraction. Or not. You’re trying to use reason to trigger an automatic response that has nothing to do with reason. Good luck with that!
Sex is free. And it’s easy. If you think otherwise, your head, like 90 to 95% of the men out there, is in the wrong place when it comes to women. A lot of men have their heads on straight in other areas but then have a weak beggars mentality when it comes to women. Sex is NOT to be even a factor when it comes to any “exhanges” in the relationship. Sex is a mutual pleasure and she’s getting just as much out of the deal.
What ELSE does she bring to the table? Does she cook? Clean? Contribute in some manner financially to the household? Or is she a liability? Most women are more of a liability than an assett. Men have to be more picky and stop begging a woman like a street bum begging for a quarter. WEED OUT THE UNWORTHY ONES. If they don’t meet your needs, you tell them the relationship isn’t going to work and you DUMP THEM. You don’t marry them.
December 7th, 2013 at 8:30 pm
Rollo – as always thank you for the post.
@ Dr. Jeremy, re: December 5th, 2013 at 12:14 am
“… there are no longer the strong, universal, social, religious, and moral sources to enforce that everyone follows those rules and does what is truly moral, just, and fair.
“So, we can talk about ways to possibly re-instill such universal morality.”
I’ve thought a lot about this and it may be that I was reading Aurelius, Cicero and some other stoics around the time of it, but an idea I’ve tossed around a bit in my own mind is a re-establishment of aristocracy. Understand – I am a “dyed in the wool” liberal – I would raise your taxes, and mine – if you let me (insert “wink” emoticon here). I would legalize recreational cannabis but throw you in jail for outsourcing your transcription work to the Philippines.
The manosphere itself ideates that something is falling out of balance and you see more ideations at places like CH the both predict and relish in a future fascist upheaval to restore balances.
The balance seems to be between the needs of the social organism that we all rely on to keep us safe and provide an environment where we can grow and thrive, and our own person beliefs and our common beliefs – of liberals and conservatives – in a personal libertarianism. We no longer accept the historical traditions, institutions or conventions that constrained the individual’s inner libertine.
So we maximize everyone’s agency – up to a point where the social threads seem to be coming unwound and in the past when that has happened, a common response of the social organism to preserve itself is fascism. I’ve little doubt CH understands this well.
But in the U.S. we don’t have aristocracy and aristocracy has been one tool – along with culture, traditions, religion, and roles defined by gender and class status – to “enforce … universal morality”.
Just noodling here – but maybe we can create a unique American aristocracy? An aristocracy that everyone could access, but only at great personal sacrifice and only by “following the rules”. There can be relationship rules … i.e.: fidelity, and there can be economic rules, i.e.: capital holders – invest in the community and don’t abuse your overstrong bargaining positions, laborers (almost every one of us) – be industrious.
Besides having a incentivization effect, this would also have a signaling effect. Where religion and culture have been largely neutered, it may serve to reinforce both in a sort of echoing, reverberation and virtuous cycle.
There’s a contingent between RM, Dalrock and SSM that believe all references to the community equal communism. I can’t help them other than to wonder why they don’t “return to nature”, i.e.: seriously – if you REALLY believe that, “go Galt” – I care ya. Frank Herbert had a point lost on a lot here: “A man’s flesh is his own; the water belongs to the tribe.” We are individual and social organisms, both. Warp and woof, yin and yang.
December 7th, 2013 at 10:01 pm
Hey Dr. Jeremy, I haven’t caught up yet with all 3000 comments left since yesterday afternoon when I clocked out, maybe this has already been addressed by someone else, or the subject has been completely changed since then… but anyway, your comment was about lack of concern for what others thinks leading to immoral conduct.
I disagree, and here is why:
Concern for what others think is completely different than concern for others’ values. It is a very important distinction.
Concern for what others think is an expression of vanity. Concern for what others think is what leads people to become disingenuous status-seekers, where our behavior is geared towards getting approval.
Concern for others’ values is an expression of personal integrity. No matter how you choose to act in your own life, you always know that you have chosen freely, and you understand that your values and choices may not be congruous with those of others, but you accept that limitation and whatever consequences may come from that. You are responsible for your life.
Both are motivated by self-interest, but the outcomes are obviously quite different. Self-interest is not the problem. Lack of integrity is the problem.
Personal integrity is required in order to make a fair trade, and all trade is based on self-interest. With integrity or without, the trade relationship is a self-interested decision. Just that the decision without integrity is based on something disingenuous – status/validation/approval.
How can anyone behave with integrity towards others if they aren’t honest enough with themselves to know what they actually want? Knowing what you want is impossible when your motive is approval. Concern for others’ values is the critical component that is missing from our actions today. Concern for what others think is all-consuming.
And furthermore, how could anyone act in a fashion that considers something outside of self-interest when they are motivated by approval? Motivation by concern for others values is always going to provide the best outcomes for everyone, self included. It is so, completely, not how we act though.
Marriage is a status symbol for women, and women are status symbols for men. Status for women most often comes along with a diamond ring and a husband that takes care of us. Status for men is obtained for the purpose of making other men jealous, and making women want them. Both are based on the need for approval/validation. Most human relationships are founded upon this.
Intellect, manners, respect, self-esteem, wealth, etc. these are all trappings of status that have become “needs.” Even our supposedly “moral” acts are about approval. We have become a society entirely fixated on status. And status, once gained, sustains very few long term, precisely because it is disingenuous: status is not something that we really, truly want. It is a superficial gratification that is empty.
That’s why, I think, there are so many embittered men and women around these days. They are not being honest about what they actually want, their motives are shallow, they are doing it for the approval of women, and when they don’t get it, they feel cheated because they find out after the trade was negotiated that what they thought they were supposed to be giving/receiving is not what they agreed to, that there were expectations that they didn’t know about.
We are all at fault here, because we lack in authenticity.
December 7th, 2013 at 11:55 pm
Aristippus, great post. You make sharp observations. Though I don’t get why you think my comment about her concealing her past for shame is ‘naive’. I doubt you really understand how much shame disrupts women’s sanity.
December 7th, 2013 at 11:57 pm
@ livingtree2013
Now that we have clarified terms, I believe we are in agreement on this point. I can see where you make a distinction between concern for surface-level thoughts for validation, and concern with deeper values for satisfying trade.
The only additional item I would clarify is:
From my vantage point, her “slut” behavior was not any more authentic or values-based than her “married” behavior. She was just looking for “I’m a slut” validation and approval in the gang-bang. IMO women are not being truly liberated and made self-aware, freely choosing their sexual behavior based on internal values. Instead, a counter-influence is just being set up to validate them for promiscuity, instead of chastity. So, they run from cool-feminist-empowered-promiscuous validation to stable-married-committed-chaste validation. This gives us the problem above…
Thus, slut-behavior is not a rebellion against the status quo – it is simply setting up a different status quo. Rather than being concerned with what “the church” thinks…girls are just concerned with what feminism thinks. It is just persuasively framed as an empowering rebellion…so it is validating and influential. Marketing hype.
Nevertheless, if integrity/authenticity is your ultimate goal, I stand by the assertion that your directional influence (what you personally “think”), may reduce individuals’ self-awareness and orientation to their own values. Whenever you “encourage” anything directional, even behaviors counter to majority thinking, then you are not “freeing the sheep”, you are just leading them in a different direction. Some will be persuaded and follow. Others will “not listen so good” and rebel. But none will be made more self-aware or authentic.
Instead, if you want integrity and authenticity…you have to help people, without interjecting your judgement or individual “thoughts”, come to understand their own individual values. Then, they need to be taught to understand and respect the different values of others. They then need to be empowered to choose their behavior freely – and held responsible for the consequences of their choices. Others too must be aware of their values and empowered, to make fair trades. This is, at least ideally, the goal of counseling and therapy. So, if you want to go down this road…you might consider a clinical degree, instead of economics.
December 8th, 2013 at 12:10 am
Dr J, I don’t think it’s possible for me to agree with you more enthusiastically..
I have advocated for ethics teaching in school children as young as grade three, by that i mean definitely not what ethics they should hold, but the instilling of thinking processes to give them tools to learn HOW to form ethically driven decisions of their own making.
Essentially, a counter to every other teaching in our world which encourages short-sighted decision making based on other people’s approval rather than concern for their inherent worth.
December 8th, 2013 at 12:37 am
Also Dr J et al., some reading you might be interested in:
http://thelatticegroup.org/is-marriage-just-a-social-status-symbol
http://wwnh.wordpress.com/2013/05/04/1847-when-married-men-hit-on-you/
In this last article, the (male) writer makes an astute observation:
“Society is what we all do and men dominate it. Culture is why we all do what we do, and women dominate it. Why we do something comes before what we do, which means: As women go, so goes society.”
Point being, if what he says is true, then women need to provide a better reason for society to do the things it does. At the moment, their reasons are very shallow.
Just as a side note, I am very much NOT a believer in the strict biology-only theory espoused by Rollo and several others here. This guy gets it >>> http://edge.org/conversation/how-culture-drove-human-evolution
December 8th, 2013 at 3:47 am
The women are just posting comments for tingles.
I don’t get the point of engaging them in any sort of logical discussion. Isn’t that investing time…which would be better spent going out on the streets and pulling young girls?
December 8th, 2013 at 6:23 am
Has anyone else noticed the irony that this guy confirmed his wife’s worst fears?
It wouldn’t surprise me if there’s a lot more background we’re not hearing, because we’re only seeing this story from the perspective of a pissed-off AFC.
Who knows if early on in their relationship this guy instilled a fear in her about revealing her sexual background.
December 8th, 2013 at 6:57 am
Tom, Obviously she has background baggage. Normal women don’t get pumped up the ass by five men and yell, “I’m a whore!”
The baggage doesn’t matter, what matters is that she is a fraud. All frauds/thieves/con artists have baggage in their past that made them who they are.
December 8th, 2013 at 7:24 am
And many (probably most) men don’t want to marry trampy hoes who have engaged in group sex acts and raise kids with them, it is quite likely he feels the same and made it clear sometime during the courtship. That’s actually why this would be fraud and not a simple misunderstanding.
December 8th, 2013 at 9:37 am
How exactly does ‘wanting to have more than perfunctory sex with your husband’ count as ‘revealing her sexual background’? I mean our AFC was quite willing to play slowly slowly catchy monkey, where should she have actually found hubby to be sexually attractive, she could have quite easily played along and made it appear to him that he had brought out or fostered her wild side. Instead what happened is she put the kibosh on any attempt to be even the slightest bit adventurous (I mean how common are BJ’s these days, they’re practically a ubiquitous part of sexual foreplay, yet they didn’t happen either), and then he stumbled upon full and frank evidence of her sexual past that was so at odds with his own lived experiences with her that he might as well have been married to a completely different women for over 7 years. No where does he even hint that he was wanting detailed info of his (ex?) wife’s sexual history which she was withholding. Though that is what he actually ended up getting.
I mean if he was having wild monkey sex with her for over 7 years, the discovery of such a video would not have been that much of a revelation, because it would not have been so incongruous to his own experiences, and the chances of it utterly derailing their relationship considerably lowered.
December 8th, 2013 at 9:48 am
Yes, Tom, I did. Which is why I originally said she couldn’t trust him. No one is advocating what she did or her lying about it. Not one single person here would agree its fine to have that kind of past or mislead others about it. But saying that’d he’d have been okay with it if she’d just been honest with him is not being honest with himself. It obviously deeply, deeply impacted him and, at this point, according to what we know, has ruined their relationship. Just as she knew it would.
December 8th, 2013 at 11:00 am
It would be really unhealthy to stay in that relationship, so get out. (In a just world, the wife would move far away.) Have the daughter paternity tested. Keep multiple copies of the film. Get an equitable divorce.
Apart from that, it’s interesting to see “relationship equity” play out here. He’s being patient and forgiving, both before and after his discovery, probably because of an internal belief that they have a history he’s not willing to burn. At the same time, she is unwilling to end it, not, it appears, because of any affection but because there are still resources to be extracted from her husband. As the dialogue shows, she’s still playing him, with an almost admirable (or sociopathic) sang froid.
(It also seems pretty obvious that he’s lower SMV than she.)
She probably has about as warm feelings for hubby as a farmer for his draft horse. No hatred, but when he falters, send him off to the knacker’s yard.
December 8th, 2013 at 12:50 pm
Living tree said: I don’t get why you think my comment about her concealing her past for shame is ‘naive’. I doubt you really understand how much shame disrupts women’s sanity.
*** This should be pretty obvious. Not all women are like that (How’s that for twisting a cliche around and using it in the other direction?). Some people are shameless. Yes, I know very well the lengths many women will go to to avoid shame. They are obsessed with what others will think about them to an unhealthy degree. This isn’t a case of shame though. It was simply a matter of her covering her a$$. She wanted access to money she didn’t earn, via a provider. That’s all. Her motive wasn’t shame. Her motive was to find a sucker to provide for her. She married FOR MONEY. Any woman who wants a sucker knows that sucker expects some level of honesty. If she had been honest, do you think he would have bought the bait? So she lied instead.
She needed an excuse not to be sexually enthusiastic with a man she’s not attracted to. She couldn’t just say “I want you to provide for me. I did all of these things in the bedroom with these other men but I WON’T with you. I’m only mildly or not attracted to you at all but I expect you to fulfill all of my needs for security and provisions, while I knowingly won’t fulfill your needs. So I’ll just tell you I’m a prude so you’ll buy into the b.s. and surrender a good share of your paychecks supporting me.”
This wasn’t about shame. She found her mark, her sucker, and pulled a con job on him. (Con is short for confidence. The idea in a con is the con artist gains the trust/confidence of another person to the point where the person will give them something in return for nothing.) She’s a parasite who needed to trick her host in order to get the host to agree to the arrangement. He would have never agreed had he known. Her past sexual enthusiasm with other men, coupled with her complete lack of enthusiasm with him was an absolute deal-breaker even after years of marriage and one daughter later. Had he known ahead of time, the marriage would have never happened and she wouldn’t have a sucker to sink her claws into.
Of course, sexual past aside, like i said before, no self-respecting man should accept marriage to a prude, unless he himself is also a prude. One of the biggest marriage killers is when people settle for someone who isn’t a match for them sexually.
Once again, this story illustrates the extreme end of the spectrum for a woman who lacks empathy. That’s the extreme side. On the more common side, I’ve noticed this. And you gentlemen reading this need to burn this into your brain. Don’t make the mistake of thinking that the more you do for a woman, the more she will appreciate it. Typically, what I’ve noticed is: THE MORE YOU DO FOR A WOMAN, THE MORE SHE EXPECTS FROM YOU.
Yes, there are exceptions but you men had better burn that into your brain, give on your own terms, and put limits on just how much you will do. Then observe how she reacts. Does she respond to your kindnesses by demanding more and more? Does she express a genuine appreciation for your sacrifices or does she pay lip service appreciation while showing through her other words and actions that she really doesn’t appreciate what you’ve had to give up in order to take care of her? Does she downplay the gravity of poor decisions she makes that inconvenience you and is this a habit? Does she downplay the level of good that you bring into her life? Do you feel like the level of courtesy she shows towards you doesn’t match the level of courtesy you show to her?
It’s time to take your heads out of the sand. Like diamonds (which are not rare), women have been overpriced. Too many men think this one is “special”, even when all of the evidence points in the opposite direction. Before you try to “prove me wrong” about diamonds, consider that every major city and small town in the U.S. and Europe has a jewelry store. Every jewelry store has tons of diamond rings, bracelets, earrings, necklaces, watches with diamonds, etc. If you had at least one store in every town and many stores in every major city that had tons of #1 Babe Ruth baseball cards, would you say it’s rare?
You’ve placed an inflated value on women. Artificially inflated. And you’ve placed too low of a value on yourself. This is the root of all problems that people talk about on here. The problems we see with men dealing with women all stem from placing an inflated value on an attractive woman, the man devaluing himself in his mind, and the man ignoring behavior standards that he has for other people when it comes to dealing with a woman he finds physically attractive.
If every man did the opposite, then women as a whole would be forced to be better behaved and those who didn’t get with the program would have to settle for the life of an old spinster with a dozen cats to keep her warm at night………. While there are some good women out there, there would be plenty more to choose from if men would hold women accountable for their actions. Consequences, good or bad, are what determine whether a behavior is repeated or not. Take the consequences away or even worse, reward bad behavior, and there is absolutely nothing to discourage the bad behavior from continuing.
December 8th, 2013 at 1:04 pm
Where are people finding these old videos at? I hear about this scenario repeatedly. There’s millions of video porn out there. Anyway.
This situation sounds similar to mine with my prudish wife. I wonder if I’ve been lied to. Time to scour the internet for research purposes.
December 8th, 2013 at 2:07 pm
LT,
Great link and very interesting stuff. However you’re doing a strawman. I dont think anyone here has a biology-only posture, as we continuously talk about culture, morals, the past the present and the future.
The study and ideas that guy is producing are completely compatible with the “red pill” which can be summarized as hypergamy. In the light of the ideas from this guy, the blue pill would be a collaborative intermarket culture with strong morals and fair(er) exhange. Feminism flipped the game to a non integrated market with no morals, so men are finding out ways to handle it.
In the game section at the bottom of your link, it’s like the game is a dictator, where women offer below 50 or nothing, men offer 50 or more, and the punisher takes it on men when they dont contribute, but giving women a free pass and incentivating them to play even more rude.
December 8th, 2013 at 3:23 pm
@Muttley
STOP APOLOGIZING for yourself.
Take it from someone that was severely shy, morbidly obese and a virgin for the majority of this life.
We put your comments into a simple word counting app, and found that you apologized no less than three times. Of course the culture creation industry has embedded the ‘men should apologize’ mandate into everything popular for decades.
MOST men in the world (on average) have your same height. This ‘5’8″‘ you mention only matters on popular online dating sites. They have membership of >70% women. And remember, there are a lot of men here that are contacted by agencies women pay thousands of dollars to – men pay $0 – so they can meet THE man. Are the men all >6’? Nope.
You’re a nice guy, that’s a constant. No matter how much you change, you still have the will inside that keeps you the good person you are. Are you still ‘you’ even though you learned to tie your shoes? It’s not natural for you to know how to tie your shoes. But if you spent your life with shoelaces flopping around, people would often be bothered.
Should I wear my old jeans (size 36 U S) since that would be the ‘me’ I was? Or, is it better that I wear the size 28 jeans that fit now? Practicing concepts you’ve learned in Rollo’s book doesn’t change the person you are… it brings you closer to your purpose on earth at this time. Your morals are not going to decline.
You wrote “You might think I’m” … STOP THAT.
Remember the words of Tim Ferriss: “F*ck ’em. There are no statues erected to critics.” Stop assuming people are thinking this or that. That’s like walking into a room hearing voices thinking people are making fun of only you like in this scene from ‘Man of Steel’ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNq1F4wBC5k See the description to find how you are NOT genetically predisposed to this ‘beta’ you think you’re trapped in.
Be confident and sure of what you say. If you’re wrong, it’s ok. If there are haters, I’ve had plenty, it’s a compliment. Practice confident body language when you walk into a room and when you’re typing comments here. It works.
You wrote, “she suggested I was a narcissist” yet she is married to an “itinerant musician, who smokes joints all day and lives off her savings!” Exclamation point Muttley! She has convinced you of how “terrible” life is. That’s hilarious because she CHOOSES to stay in that marriage! Muttley it’s sooooo terrible with her sexy, aloof, fun, exotic, mysterious, husband with a delicious international accent (and she can’t resist that he’s an artist) husband that has an addiction she’s sure she can FIX. She enjoys him and the drama of it… and she’s convinced you otherwise. She’s NOT your friend. Stop being the best listener and shoulder to cry on in the world.
TIME is the most valuable gift you’ve been given, and the time invested in this ‘beautiful’ woman – let it go. Stop ‘cold turkey’ NOW. Invest TIME in YOU so that soon you’ll not be the ‘friend’ of the future “beautiful” woman you attract, you’ll be the one she wants.
Millions of men have read this post, and you’re one of the small percentage that doesn’t assume he already knows the stuff in Rollo’s book (less than $10 U S). That alone puts you in a better place than the ones you seem to be apologizing to here. I do not understand how anyone could come to this blog and deprive himself of Rollo Tomassi “The Rational Male” book.
Now that you’ve taken the step millions of men reading this post haven’t, remember Richard Branson. He said, “The best way of learning about anything is by doing.” Do it.
December 8th, 2013 at 3:26 pm
@ livingtree2013
My theoretical framework is Bio-Psycho-Social. This is standard psychological training, to look at an issue from multiple levels. Essentially, each level serves as a foundation for the one above, with higher levels modifying the expression of lower. Thus, how we express and experience something like biological desire, will be modified by our psychology (perhaps how we feel about love and sex) and society (rules around love and sex). In turn, the psycho-social then enhance, inhibit, or alter our ability to meet those lower biological needs (only allowing and wanting sex under certain conditions, with a subset of people).
The reason why many men on here espouse a more strict biological viewpoint is not because they are ignorant of these other features. Rather, it is because our current psychological and social landscape has been changed to disempower and manipulate them away from getting their biological needs met. As we discussed in a previous thread, the psycho-social climate is inhibiting these men’s ability to survive and reproduce. They call this the “blue pill” – matrix of psycho-social lies that work against their biological imperatives. So, they are motivated to deconstruct everything to the biological level and then work back up, to get rid of the manipulations that are not serving their biological needs (the “red pill’).
Essentially, rather than trying to disentangle the good-from-bad in the social landscape, they just start with the most basic biological truths…and work from there. Thus, they avoid the possibility of any misunderstanding or manipulations that might divert them from meeting their basic, biological needs. Arguably, this gets closer to your goal of being truly self-aware and authentic than any other method, allowing people to understand who they are, at the core, and what they value.
For example, you offer the quote…
That could be accurately deconstructed down to a biological level…
Society is what we all do TO SURVIVE and men dominate it. Culture is why we all do what we do TO REPRODUCE, and women dominate it. The need for reproduction motivates many to survive, which means: As women go…so does reproduction, and the motivation to survive and create society.
Can we socially-construct other motivations for survival…sure. But, they will all ultimately be built on a biological foundation – or else they will not be “authentic” and eventually collapse. That is what we have now, an inauthentic social matrix that no longer serves our biological self-interests. That is why, at least for the most disenfranchised, it is crumbling. Beginning with biology helps with their understanding and efforts. If your goals are the same, as you note above, then I would argue it would be beneficial to begin with biology as well.
Then again…many avoid it because it contains harsh truths. Biology is not egalitarian. That is why we have constructed this social order – to turn the biologically “less-fortunate” into social equals – rather than making each person responsible for their lot, make the best of it, and work to improve. After all, it is easier to socially-manipulate the rules to “win”, rather than play a game that is biologically a fair trade…and not end up on top. Neither women nor men want to be “stuck with” someone who is their biological equal – but women control reproduction, more power now, and “culture”… So the “less fortunate” among them get to change the rules, until something that is a biologically-unfair trade in their favor becomes possible, or even normative.
December 8th, 2013 at 3:27 pm
How far will a woman go to NOT look like a slut?
My ex-wife told our 18 year old son that her man had to spend the night because it was too dangerous for him to drive home – the roads were just to slick (he drives a big ass 4wheel drive Jeep – you’ve probably seen them on the road) and that he was going to sleep in her room, but on top of the covers. (really?)
December 8th, 2013 at 3:37 pm
@Muttley
Listen this from @LiveFearless…”She’s NOT your friend. Stop being the best listener and shoulder to cry on in the world. TIME is the most valuable gift you’ve been given…”
All I can give you is advice from my own personal experience. Anytime you are spending with her RIGHT NOW is time that you will never get back. She has her hooks in you, and is keeping you exactly in the place she wants you to be – and you are allowing it. Until you FULLY step away, cut the bonds and get yourself in the proper mindset, your life will be her’s not yours.
I spent the better part of the past two years attempting to convince my now ex-wife that I was worthy of her – and that we should be a family again. I was the most “stand-up” guy in the world – provide emotional and financial support to her – after she moved out with the kids. I can never get that time back. So don’t waste another second on being her emotional tampon, because that’s a road that never ends and gets you no where.
December 8th, 2013 at 7:04 pm
I don’t know yet, Dr. J, there’s something that doesn’t sit properly with me about the theory you espoused, I’m not sure I fully agree but I’m not yet sure why.
I wonder if its that we have the same end goal but are just attempting to get there by different paths. Biology is important, and I won’t deny that I think if we respected our biology a bit more we might make better sense out of our lives, but stripping back to bare bones biology just seems like regression. Actually its not just LIKE regression, it IS regression. Is regression going to solve it? Or is it going to worsen it? That, I just don’t know.
I’ll have to think more on it, maybe it’ll come to me by our next debate!
December 8th, 2013 at 7:49 pm
I don’t know yet, Dr. J, there’s something that doesn’t sit properly with me about the theory you espoused, I’m not sure I fully agree but I’m not yet sure why.
At the risk of being presumptuous, I’ll tell you why. You are having a visceral reaction to the biological framework of “It’s just not fair”. My sense is the vast majority of women have tremendous difficulty with the is-ought distinction. I have seen it play out in a number of debates. Women often conflate the two, and either reject/demonize the messenger of what is, or begin to fabricate their own version of what is because it matches in their mind what ought to be. Perfect example of that right here….with Dr. Jeremy trying to correct the garbage science in a diplomatic matter that I can no longer muster:
http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2013/12/05/relationshipstrategies/beta-bux-myth-debunked-science/
Actually, both this story in this post and the Jenny Erikson story on Dalrock are textbook examples of AFBB. Anyone denying that this does NOT happen is either stupid, dishonest, or both. How prevalent it is is a different question.
December 8th, 2013 at 8:53 pm
@livingtree2013
Ah, I see. It’s all the man’s fault for marrying a woman who was more than willing to perform sex acts with strangers in college, but wouldn’t perform then on her own husband.
I do partially agree with you. The only cure for this disease will be an absolute, all-out strike on marriage, cohabitation, dating, exclusivity, and other male forms of commitment. It appears we are already part-way there; my experience is that women in their late teens and 20s offer up sex first and hope for commitment later. But is this what you really meant by “tell women you think being sexually available is something you, personally, find attractive”?
Meanwhile, there’s a girl in my rotation whose fellatio skills have been somewhat subpar; she’d like to learn how to give better head, and actually enjoy giving it. I will be “participating” in such training later this evening. She was certainly quite shy when I met her: I welcomed this. By now, she’s learned to thoroughly enjoy anal sex. I am quite glad she was not already a connoiseur of anal sex when I met her.
In short, she’s mine, and no other men have access to her like I do.
This is what your philosophy and your morality have given us, livingtree2013.
December 8th, 2013 at 9:10 pm
Dearest @Muttley,
Boys and girls can’t be friends. Please see http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/19/playing-friends/
In short, if you aren’t fucking a girl, you’d better be using her to meet her hot friends so that you can fuck them. Otherwise, she’s just using you.
And letting a woman married to an itenerant, drug-addled muscian cheat with you is fair game. Just make sure she’s still attractive. And restrict the friendship to only sex.
December 9th, 2013 at 1:06 am
No, Morpheus that’s definitely not it. Not for me anyway, I can’t speak for anyone else as to their reasons though. The reason is logical, not emotional, its lingering in my mind, but the connections haven’t been made yet.
Allow me to formulate my thoughts on it for a bit, if you will, hopefully I can explain why it doesn’t fit.
December 9th, 2013 at 5:56 am
Live Fearless, Tin Man and Aaron thank you for your comments. I realise now that I wasn’t applying the red pill ideas to my own situation with my ex. Something like “I can see how it works in general, but obviously my case is different”…duh! I now see the dynamics more clearly.
Since I started on this shattering journey I have become an insomniac. There are times when I feel the exhilaration of a ‘new me’ being born and others when I feel so tired that I just want to slip back into the comforts of blue pill depression. My resistance to change is huge. So many years of illusion….belief that the romantic nice guy is all I can be…guilt and shame about my own desires and even my own existence. Sometimes the expression ‘God and the Devil playing chess’ comes to mind.
But I’ll keep trying! This year I fulfilled a dream to take part in an Ayahuasca workshop in Holland (another shattering and beautiful ‘red pill’ experience) and next year I aim to do a daygame bootcamp. Yesterday I spoke to a nice woman in the park, even if it was only about her cute dog!
To be honest I don’t think there’s any going back for me. Even if I have periods where I feel like giving up and even if, ultimately, I crash and burn I can’t unsee what I’ve seen.
And by the way, Dr Jeremy…wow! Your last post (and all of them actually) was awesome! You cut to the heart of the matter and provide a coherent context to my feelings and you do so (I feel) with love in your heart…thank you!
I know I shouldn’t keep saying sorry but I’ve gone way off topic so…ermmm… sorry Rollo!
Muttley
December 9th, 2013 at 9:35 am
LyingTree2013 refers to you men as “boys” in one of her earlier replies. Women code-word for lapdogs and beta boys.
I’m not understanding the oneitis-type mentality in engaging in any sort of logical conclusion with her, nor attempting to persuade her of anything.
Just let her go to the clubs and pull 20-year old boys.
December 9th, 2013 at 11:09 am
Aaron, what is your issue with this situation exactly? She’s told you what she wants, and you don’t mind giving it to her. There are no misconceptions here about what the arrangement is. Sounds like a pretty fair trade to me.
And yet you condemn her for it. You want to put women on pedestals who clearly don’t want to be on them, and then you’re angry at them because they don’t share your values. Your values which, I’m guessing from your tale, you never once told her (or showed her) that you hold, but you are more than happy to take what she offers and resent her for it.
I don’t understand you guys, how you can completely mis-diagnose the hypocrisy in situations like this.
December 9th, 2013 at 11:13 am
This is sad on so many levels for everyone concerned.
Something about this guy’s account just seems off to me. Why would his wife keep the incriminating video for so many years? If she didn’t keep it how did he suddenly obtain it?
Are there really women who are so perverse that they would allow 5 men to have sex with them? Could this woman have been drugged or drunk when the incident took place? That would not excuse what took place, but it would explain why it took place.
It seems absence a true miracle of God in both of their lives their relationship can never be restored. She’ll always be haunted by her sinful past behavior. He’ll always have horrible images of her with other men in his head.
December 9th, 2013 at 11:34 am
@Muttley
Congrats on your awakening. All good things take time. However, be secure that once the inner alpha and beta start fighting it is only a matter of time before the alpha wins. Keep the faith and all will be good.
December 9th, 2013 at 11:47 am
Tom: “Has anyone else noticed the irony that this guy confirmed his wife’s worst fears? … Who knows if early on in their relationship this guy instilled a fear in her about revealing her sexual background.”
Exactly. This doesn’t seem that complicated, and I think he’s making it about himself when it really is not. She didn’t want him to see her as a whore, pure and simple. Obviously the world of a pornography movie and the world of a married couple are different places. More likely than not, she wanted to keep the two identities separate. This does not justify her lying, but her husband is missing the point in complaining that he’s just mad she won’t do the same with him. I also suspect that he is not being honest with himself about how he would have reacted had he found out about her past before they were married. I say that because his whole dialogue is inconsistent. If it really doesn’t bother him that she participated in such, then it really shouldn’t bother him. If she’s willing to change now, and the past doesn’t matter, then he wouldn’t be forcing a trial separation. His response doesn’t track with what he says he wants/wanted; but it does track with a loss of respect for her.
December 9th, 2013 at 11:52 am
Also Morpheus, I don’t doubt that “AFBB” exists, I’m more than certain that it does. And I don’t read Susan’s article as though she thinks it doesn’t exist either.
I (and Susan, and probably most women…) just doubt the reasons you guys cite for that behavior. I think it is an incredible oversimplification to attribute this behavior to inate hypergamy, as if it is a biological motivation. And I do plan on rebutting this myth fully, when I have the time to do the leg-work.
As much as I’d love to do that right this minute, I do have to go earn a living so I can pay my multiple mortgages, since I am not willing to be dependent on a beta-husband.
December 9th, 2013 at 12:00 pm
Rollo, this thread is a gift that keeps on giving. The examples of female rationalization in service to the Female Imperative arrive one after the other, as off of an assembly line. It’s becoming an exemplar.
Note how arid completely dismisses the fact that the wife in this case denied any variation in sex to her alleged husband for seven years, and only offered it when she was busted.
Note how lyingtree2013 sinuously twists herself into a pretzel, on the one hand admitting that hypergamy exists, on the other hand insisting in her usual “But Ought! Ought! Not IS!” way that AFBB may exist but not for hypergamic reasons.
If there is anything that is of overarching importance to gynocentric women, from feminist to “traditional”, it is this: the truths about women must be obscured, at all costs. No self-contradiction is too blatant, no clumsy lie too stupid, so long as AWALT can be somehow twisted to NAWALT.
Open comments for the win…
December 9th, 2013 at 12:15 pm
Anonymous Reader: “Note how arid completely dismisses the fact that the wife in this case denied any variation in sex to her alleged husband for seven years, and only offered it when she was busted.”
And my point stands–when she was doing what she did before, she viewed herself as acting like a whore and saw that as at odds with her married identity. Furthermore, he says she viewed certain positions/acts as degrading, i.e., whorish. She said she would do so now because she was fearful of him leaving her altogether.
Do not underestimate the Madonna-Whore complex that women *and* men have and perpetuate in this society. Many women feel that those identities must be kept separate. It has little to do with him, despite how he feels, and everything to do with how she sees herself/wants to see herself as a married woman.
The whole situation is messed up, beginning with participating is such a video in the first place.
December 9th, 2013 at 12:47 pm
I already anticipated Arid’s response in the post itself:
The sisterhood über alles.
I wonder how you’ll defend the woman in this radio bit:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/03/the-rush/
Did she have a slut-shaming issues too?
December 9th, 2013 at 12:52 pm
Who said anything about defense? I said the entire situation is messed up, starting with her actions from the beginning. What I disagree with is the husband’s insistence that this is all about how attracted she is to him.
December 9th, 2013 at 12:56 pm
arid,
So if a man can have wild random sex with a bunch of sluts but wont like having sex with you, it has nothing to do with how much he’s attracted sexually to you.
December 9th, 2013 at 12:56 pm
arid,
So if a man can have wild random sex with a bunch of sluts but wont like having sex with you, it has nothing to do with how much he’s attracted sexually to you.
December 9th, 2013 at 12:57 pm
Now, whilst I am willing to believe she didn’t want him to think she was a slut, if their relationship was all that, she should KNOW and TRUST him enough to reveal that side of herself. He clearly loves her and the problem isn’t a virgin/whore dichotomy or anything. It is possible she was using sex as a bargaining tool
I am currently with a man who was a virgin at the age of 24. Now with that comes his insecurity wondering how many dicks I’ve seen and my initial fear of him being put off by my past (I was the good girl who got abused them forever was trying to make men happy/love her with sex) He loved me for me, therefore I wasnt so insecure about letting the slut out, even if sometimes he wasn’t up for it and I felt guilty like there was something wrong with me for wanting to have sex with him. I’m kind of disappointed about the dude’s knee jerk decision. She could genuinely have felt ashamed about her past and wanted to be a good girl who settled down but the thing is people need to be honest about their desires in a relationship. Even if they don’t get the response they want or they worry it will change their partner’s perception of them. Actually if they don’t it will perpetuate the sex shame that will make women secretly have orgies and frustrate their poor husbands by refusing the nookie.
Just going to say it has always been me trying to rip my boyfriend’s pants off rather than looking elsewhere. It’s just frustrating when the one time he wants to rip my clothes off is in a freezin cold tent when I have just had surgery @_@ I wonder if it subconsciously turns men on if you are clearly ‘unavailable’ for sex… Even to them @_@
December 9th, 2013 at 1:08 pm
Sometimes sex doesn’t have anything to do with attraction, Yohami. Men have sex all the time with women they aren’t attracted to, and don’t have sex with women they are attracted to. So do women.
The madonna-whore complex doesn’t just manifest with women, Yohami. We both suffer from it. I hate to reference wikipedia for this, but the fact that wikipedia has an entry about it, which in the first paragraph refers to it as a men’s complex, would indicate that this is pretty elementary stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna%E2%80%93whore_complex
It is quite possibly the most destructive psychology that mankind endures still to this day. I think its safe to say that one of the primary functions of feminism is to eliminate this complex. It has been largely unsuccessful in its attempts to do so, however.
December 9th, 2013 at 1:11 pm
I’m not as eloquent as Rollo or Morpheus, but let me give this a try Arid…
Woman HAVE or DON’T HAVE sex with someone based upon their attraction level [in the language of a Man, she just can’t get it up for him]. In this case, the wife was basically having duty sex with her husband – and from it sounds like – not very often over the 7 year marriage.
Now, attraction is a very dynamic thing – and I’m not even going to attempt to put the nuances in this comment. I will say this…within a LTR, it is my opinion that “creating attraction” is the Man’s responsibility. If the other half of that equation does not respond, he has two healthy choices – have sex outside the LTR or extract himself from the LTR – and one unhealthy choice – stay in the LTR for the sake of the [fill in the blank] and never make a healthy choice about his life.
Athol Kay has the MAP for any Man going through this. And Rollo has his book. Both are very good instructional manuals for Men living a healthy and knowledgeable life.
Live, Learn, Lead.
December 9th, 2013 at 1:16 pm
LT, Im familiar with the Madonna Whore complex. When you pointed that her behavior might do with shame I agreed. And at the core of con artists and narcissist and degenerates, there’s a lot of shame.
Still, I extend the question to you. If a man can have sex with a bunch of sluts but wont like having sex to you, it has nothing to do with how much he’s sexually attracted to you?
December 9th, 2013 at 2:16 pm
You want an alpha male response? I’ll give you an alpha male response.
First: Did I misread or do you have a child with this woman who has been living with you for 7 years? Were those 7 years good or bad in other ways? has she been a loyal, devoted, and caring wife and mother? Because that doesn’t seem to matter as much to you as blowjobs and anal sex. And what about your poor kid, caught up in the fallout of this bullshit little beta tantrum of yours?
Second: Which brings us to the crux of the matter–you want blowjobs, anal sex, and group that bad? Go out and get them. With other women. An alpha male enters any marriage with the clear understanding (with his innermost self) that he is going to discreetly sleep with a number of other women during the course of his long marriage and maybe keep a mistress or two as his economic fortunes improve. Because–and I cannot emphasize this enough–that is what defines being an Alpha male! Having lots of women on a string. Juggling them and keeping them all happy, while moving through the world of men unchallenged and unscathed.
And third: Christ man, respect your wife’s privacy! What the hell were you doing snooping and watching her old videos? Saying that “anybody would” or “it was too much temptation” is bullshit: snooping is what women do. An alpha male views his woman’s life as having started the moment she met him. Straying with other men after that is “cheating”; what happened before in her life is her business–and none of yours. As long as it isn’t repeated or coming out of the woodwork to haunt you. Got that? Because it’s non-negotiable.
But fourth: there is nothing in this “fight” of yours that shouldn’t have been worked out before your marriage. What you say before you propose (and yeah, getting married is your decision, not hers) is this: “I am the most jealous guy you’ll ever meet–because I’m in love. I can’t answer for what I would do to any exes who show up in our lives–maybe pull a dime for a body beef. What happened before is your business, but don’t rub my nose in it. Don’t want to hear about it, don’t want to have to know anything about it. Just know that I totally trust you now.”
December 9th, 2013 at 2:20 pm
@New Yorker
Thanks, that’s really good to know…appreciate it!
December 9th, 2013 at 2:27 pm
Rod Kierkegaard,
You have so little idea of what you’re talking about I’ll call you Rudy.
December 9th, 2013 at 2:27 pm
“If you believe this woman engaged in 5-way, double-penetration, bukakke, amateur, porn videos as some form of civil disobedience against her domineering moralistic and patriarchal overlords you need to go back to the drawing board.”
Ha. It’s ridiculous to think that any woman has sex with a man as some sort of a political statement. The sexual liberation that arrived as part of the feminist movement wasn’t “political”, it’s personal on the deepest most primal levels. It’s the “right” to have sex with the most attractive men she can get because that’s what’s in her interest. It validates her worth and (in theory) propagates the species. Simple as that.
December 9th, 2013 at 2:36 pm
Yohami– you’re an amusing guy, and I enjoy your blog a lot, but yeah, I do know what I’m talking about. The problem with most guys who need to take “red pills” is they’ve never been fathered. I suspect that may be yours, too. Alpha male behavior is as learned as it is ingrained. And it’s defined, as I said, by making many women happy–and as few as possible unhappy. I’m an old man; my track record speaks for itself. How about yours?
December 9th, 2013 at 2:37 pm
Sexual desire has to do with a wide range of things, Yohami, besides physical attraction. I’ve seen so many reasons men want, or don’t want, to have sex with women, and quite routinely they have nothing to do with genuine attraction. Same goes for women. We are very complex creatures, living in a very complex world, a world which encourages falsehood and superficiality, every minute of every day.
People in the western world are dearly hooked on vanity-affirmation, so much so that I think it is difficult for us to actually even KNOW when genuine attraction is present, or what to do with it, since it doesn’t jive with our vanity-perception. We have developed a complex architecture of lies to allow us to continue in this strategy and convince ourselves that it is in our best interest, when it couldn’t be further from the truth.
We are now able to convince ourselves that we’re attracted to people because they validate our desirability, and we can use that to employ our sexuality to obtain or distribute favors, like treats for good behavior, to reward or punish ourselves, or to rebel against the status quo. We do all of these. Both genders I mean. The description of what is considered a “high-value woman” that I see bandied about on this site is really a perfect example of that.
I was asked in a previous conversation here to define what I consider a high-value woman. My list was a short description of what I would consider a person of integrity. The responses I got back from the commenters were along the lines of “How typical, a woman projecting her wants for a man and telling men they should want the same thing,” and “Adding ‘stands by her values at all costs’ sends up a red flag of a difficult woman.” The responses told me a great deal about the hypocrisy of the “high-value woman” theorem. What you claim to want is one who validates your worth, not one who has worth herself.
Really? You don’t think personal integrity is important? Well, I guess we really do get what we deserve.
http://www.wikihow.com/Develop-Personal-Integrity
December 9th, 2013 at 2:44 pm
Rod,
Yeah, I had to father myself.
Really?
In a simple word, no.
Then we would have to examine what you mean. Is Justin Bieber making more women happy than unhappy? if so you see the female angst as happiness, then I would concur.
Or you mean that you’re a pleaser in your personal relationships? are you counting cheating on your wife as making her happy? are you definining happiness in the whole feminine spectrum that also includes drama, jealousy, etc? or are you approaching it from the doing whatever they want kind of happy?
Or maybe you just mean fucking a lot women and making them happy, while not overwhelming them with neediness and not making them unhappy.
Who knows.
Your advice if taken at face value, from a blue pill mainstream point of view is rather poor.
December 9th, 2013 at 2:46 pm
LT,
Saying “its complicated” might work as a pickup line but doesnt do much here.
I’ll take that you can be in a relationship with a womanizer who wont have sex with you and be ok with it.
December 9th, 2013 at 3:08 pm
“What I disagree with is the husband’s insistence that this is all about how attracted she is to him. “
Arid, this has EVERYTHING to do with how attracted she is to her husband.
The wife in the OP obviously enjoyed herself on the sex tape. She was attracted to the men having sex with her.
A slut doesn’t spread her legs for men she’s not attracted to.
If she were attracted to her husband, she’d be willing to have sex with him WITHOUT his pointing out her willingness to sex other men. She’d be enthusiastic about sex with him. She’d be chewing the bedsheets horny for him.
If she’s not having sex with her husband or resisting certain sex practices with him, she’s not attracted to him. Period. End of story. Full stop.
December 9th, 2013 at 3:18 pm
Not a chance Yohami, that would never happen in my life. If you’ve taken that out of anything I’ve said so far in this conversation, I clearly didn’t communicate very well.
But that is not to say that there aren’t women who would accept that, many do in fact. As I said, the world is a complicated place, with many conflicted motivations. I just don’t happen to be one of them who does, nor do I understand what would motivate someone to accept that. Low self-esteem perhaps?
December 9th, 2013 at 3:42 pm
“She’d be chewing the bedsheets horny for him.”
This hyperbole does neither men nor women any favors. Typically, sexual desire in LTRs doesn’t remain at such a level–even when there’s real sexual attraction and desire between partners.
“If she’s…resisting certain sex practices with him, she’s not attracted to him.”
This, too, is hyperbole. A woman might have been intrigued in the past (even with her husband) by anal or watersports, for example, but lost interest after trying it. Whether she’s not so “willing to have [that kind of] sex with him” isn’t a good barometer of her attraction to him.
Your basic point still stands: a woman who is attracted to her man will not merely tolerate sex with him but usually look forward to it. There’s no doubt that the woman in the story isn’t attracted to her husband.
December 9th, 2013 at 3:54 pm
Regarding the Madonna-Whore issue and general social brainwashing:
Calling it a “complex” is a misnomer and pathologizing. Rather, it is a “feature” of male mate choice preference. Sometimes men prefer true “madonnas” – for long-term mating to ensure paternity. Sometimes men prefer “whores” – for short-term mating and thrills. Sometimes they have a “madonna” at home with the kids…and a “whore” on the side for fun. Sometimes they marry a “madonna” and want her to then be their, personal “whore”. None of these arrangements are complex or conflicting.
The “complex” occurs for women…for at least one of two reasons: 1) the woman is psychologically conflicted due to incompatible pressure to be both a “madonna” and a “whore” for multiple men, 2) the woman wants to “have it all”, by being a “whore”, then claiming she is a “madonna” (like in this case).
“Feminism” has been unsuccessful in resolving this issue (for women) because of the approach chosen. To date, the “solution” has been social engineering to attempt to shame men out of any preference for “madonnas” and complete acceptance for “whores”. This would, theoretically, solve the problem by allowing women to “have it all”. However, it is almost impossible to socially eradicate a biological preference. Not to mention the fact that it is unfair to not allow men their preferences in trade. Thus, the approach has been “unsuccessful”.
If someone were interested in handling this issue, however, there is indeed a simple fix. Educate women that men have different preferences. Let them know that the social pressure women feel to be “both” is because men want both in their lives – for different reasons. Men will also offer different benefits to a “madonna” and a “whore”. So, depending on what a woman wants and who she wants to trade with, she has to choose being one or the other. Then she can be self-aware, authentic to her values, responsible for the consequences of her actions, and influential in her own outcomes. (BTW…switch the sexes and replace “madonna” with beta bux, and “whore” with alpha fux, and you pretty much get the “red pill” education model of the manosphere.)
Thus, there is really no grand “complex” here. There are just mostly “blue pill” women, kept ignorant of men’s sexual preferences, pushed in multiple directions by conflicting pressure, then lied to by an ideology that tells them they are “entitled to have it all”. So, they make bad choices and trades. Yes, just like in this case, men are often the last socially-brainwashed “sucker” left holding the bag in the process. But that doesn’t mean they are the only ones “blue pill” brainwashed into stupid decisions.
Please note…I am NOT excusing her behavior. Just like the men who make bad decisions under the “blue pill”, she needs to still take responsibility and deal with the consequences of her actions. BUT, I am offering a more constructive explanation for her actions that might lead to better solutions to the problem – for MEN too.
December 9th, 2013 at 3:56 pm
Guys, Rod here just illustrated in two sentences why you get so much negative feedback from feminists about your “alpha” ambitions:
1) “An alpha male enters any marriage with the clear understanding (with his innermost self) that he is going to discreetly sleep with a number of other women during the course of his long marriage and maybe keep a mistress or two as his economic fortunes improve.”
2) “Straying with other men after that is “cheating” what happened before in her life is her business–and none of yours.”
(Message: What he does is entitlement. What she does is cheating. He enters a MARRIAGE with that understanding with HIMSELF. His wife’s understanding and acceptance of those terms matters not in the least, because she is replaceable. As long as she is getting her provisioning needs met, she should accept her lot and not trouble herself with what he does with his time, money, or body.)
You have your explanation, gentlemen. Traditional gender values 101. The reason feminism was invented.
December 9th, 2013 at 4:03 pm
Dr.
Wouldnt you switch that in the male side? do women have any kind of pedestalization for the beta virgin male? they extract commitment and resources from betas like alphas extract sex from women, use and dispose, while chasing the alpha beast, similar to men chasing the ideal madonna.
December 9th, 2013 at 4:14 pm
Respect, Dr. Jeremy. That has to be one of the most incisive breakdowns in this sphere.
If the diversions, non sequiturs, reframing efforts, and attention mongering here of certain ladies yields the kind of analysis this post and these comments have produced overall, the trade is more than fair.
December 9th, 2013 at 4:50 pm
“do women have any kind of pedestalization for the beta virgin male?”
No, which is why it is painful to see men follow women’s sexual strategy expecting success.
December 9th, 2013 at 4:58 pm
No Yohami, he’s hit it exactly right. Alpha is the male equivalent of a whore. Beta is the male equivalent of a madonna. They are exactly parallel archetypes. Spot on, Dr. I never thought about it like that before.
Although I would really appreciate it if you could give me some grounds for why you believe this to be a biological impulse. I just about wrote you an essay as to why it isn’t, its matricentric-culturally driven, but first I’d rather have you explain your position to me. Perhaps I will see your point, and not bother trying to make mine.
December 9th, 2013 at 5:08 pm
LT, Dr.
If you measure them from the same perspective, yes, except men and women have opposite perspectives here, thus opposite values.
The beta gives commitment and resources for free.
The slut gives sex for free.
The madonna makes you work for her sex access.
The alpha makes you work for his commitment access.
Men dream about finding a woman who will be chaste to everyone but himself.
Women dream about finding a man who will give her and only her his commitment.
I could go on. Bottom line you’re wrong.
December 9th, 2013 at 5:12 pm
Hah, Kate awesome response. It took me a while to get it…
December 9th, 2013 at 6:02 pm
@ Yohami,
Here is how I conceptualize it… On one had, there are equivalences:
1) Men prefer “madonnas” for long-term commitments, and “whores” for short-term mating.
2) Women prefer “beta-dads” for long-term commitments, and “alpha-cads” for short-term mating.
3) Both, ideally “want it all” in one person. The male ideal is the “virgin wife who is a slut only for them” – madonna and whore. The female ideal is the alpha stud who settles down and becomes a provider for her – fux and bux.
4) If “both in one” is not an option, then women may get short-term fux from an alpha cad, and long-term commitment bux from a beta dad – alpha fux and beta bux (AFBB). Similarly, men may have a primary, virginal wife to assure paternity, then a “slut on the side” for kicks – virgin validation and slut excitation (VVSE).
Thus, on this level of analysis madonna = beta (long-term commitment) and whore = alpha (short-term mating).
Because the sexes also complement each other, there is also some mirroring. So, your analysis is ALSO correct. They are not mutually exclusive. Thus:
A) Male’s are primarily rated for their provisioning value, women for their sexual value, in long-term commitment.
B) Either are perceived to be low-worth when they give away that primary value too quickly.
C) Thus, “virgins” and “alphas” are often perceived as high value, while “sluts” and “betas” are often perceived as low value.
This creates a conflict with the four points above when:
I) High value virgins and alphas match up together by similar value, only to find that their mating goals may not line up. Sometimes they commit and have sex, which means they both “get it all”. Other times, they just have sex – which is an unfair trade for the virgin. If she is “smart” she requires commitment for sex – but the “blue pill” usually brainwashes her away from that.
II) Low value whores and betas match up based on value too, only to find their mating goals in conflict as well. Sometimes they also commit and have sex, which means they both “get the best they can”. Other times, they just commit – which is an unfair trade for the beta. If he is “smart” he requires sex for commitment – but the “blue pill” usually brainwashes him away from that.
Make sense?
December 9th, 2013 at 6:27 pm
Spectacular analysis Dr. J!
December 9th, 2013 at 6:31 pm
Dr.
It makes sense from that perspective, I’ll add that each gender strategies show different values
Men dont settle down with madonnas, they settle down with whores
Women dont settle down with alphas, they settle down with betas
More often than not a man fucking a whore will want to keep things that way with no more strings attached
More often than not a woman fucking an alpha will pursue a long term relationship with him
The beta is the last resource for a woman, if she cannot manage to turn an alpha into her
While men are not pushing madonnas aside waiting for the moment the whore they are fucking also develops feelings
* * *
So from an unified sexual standard virgins equal betas and whores equal alphas. From a game and SVM / Commitment market its the opposite.
December 9th, 2013 at 6:33 pm
Except one point of note, Dr. J – more and more, women and women of both “high-value” and “low-value” (I shudder at the use of the terms) are viewing each other as bad long-term mating choices all around.
Perhaps we really are doomed.
December 9th, 2013 at 6:40 pm
And also, I’m finding more people in my own circle have simply opted out of this ridiculous parody with seemingly impossible goals to meet both people’s needs, and are simply learning that shared intimacy WITHOUT life commitment, shared assets, or baggage – aka the “relationship lite” – provides the best of both worlds.
http://www.torontosun.com/2013/11/21/relationship-lite-describes-a-new-era-of-casual-dating
December 9th, 2013 at 6:54 pm
Right, so the point being – we’re all making the wrong choices.
Chaste girls should stick with betas, because they will be less likely to become resentful over giving up their most valuable asset to a man-whore, and nice beta provider will be less likely to become resentful about not being appreciated for the effort he puts in to keeping her happy. Sexually sophisticated women should stick with alpha males because they have more in common anyway as far as what they want from each other.
But really, get this one through your heads, men – women may want to get with alphas, but few of them really LIKE them. They are usually really terrible people, and the more alpha they get the worse they become. Same with women.
The issue I have with the whole archetypal mythology of the virgin/alpha possessing inherent value. Personality is entirely a sliding scale that you find your place on, we are rarely ever one extreme or the other. The extremes, and those who pedestalize/demonize them, are usually people who have really deep-seated psychological issues.
December 9th, 2013 at 6:58 pm
Aristippus
Don’t read other things into what I wrote. I said that the gift of a woman’s body (virginity) in a marriage is the greatest gift she can give a man. I stand by that statement. I am not implying that all sex is pity sex, or that sex is somehow a favor. I’m saying that the gift of unrestrained access to a woman who has had no other man is a fantastic gift, not a perversion and certainly not demeaning to the female.
December 9th, 2013 at 7:02 pm
Said the woman who likes to be dominated in bed, by a dominant man.
December 9th, 2013 at 7:04 pm
LT,
On one hand I agree with you, on the other I know this is exchanging high value for low value.
True, though she’ll be resentful herself, bored and wondering if she could do better.
I dont know these, only whores.
Likewise, how do you get alphas into that deal?
Oh, you dont know me.
But I agree. Power is a craddle for a bunch of bad behaviours to flourish.
Yeah well.
Third person adhominem = who cares?
What really worries me is all these people spending their lives online talking about the sexuality of others. Now THAT indicates so many deep seated psychological issues Im even scared to start counting them.
December 9th, 2013 at 7:08 pm
Not disagreeing with you Jeremy, but Aristippus is correct in saying that too many men share the delusion that women having sex with them is a favor that they don’t enjoy. Unfortunately, a lot of women also believe this.
December 9th, 2013 at 7:10 pm
But that doesn’t mean I want said dominant bed-partner to be my husband Rollo. It’d take a pretty special man to fill those shoes, you don’t get that highly coveted position by being good in bed. Too easy!
December 9th, 2013 at 7:14 pm
Perhaps the issue, Yohami, is that we are placing false value upon the alpha? He is not really high-value in anyone’s estimation except his own. It mattered when we were living in caves and killing wild game to eat, when survival of the species really was about the strongest…but it hardly matters now, does it?
Does it…?
December 9th, 2013 at 7:16 pm
You should really ask Kate how her Beta with a side of Alpha project is going for her:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/10/02/up-the-alpha/
December 9th, 2013 at 7:21 pm
Well Kate? I’m pretty satisfied with mine… how about you?
December 9th, 2013 at 7:24 pm
LT,
He is not really high-value in anyone’s estimation except his own.
Betas look up to him and do his will. Port alpha behavior to any environment and that man becomes the leader of that environment, from business to anywhere else, while betas are happy at his shadow. Put risks on the table and alpha tackles on them and the trial an error give him swagger and insight, know-how, confidence, and resourcefulness. He’s not afraid to offend and is really “himself” while betas are shy and try to play it polite and need other people to make decisions for them. Alphas are social and good with lots of people, while betas are ok with just being among those people. Etc.
So, no.
Having sex with a bunch of women happens because these are the kind of guys women are after. Being a player is the result to applying the alpha mindset to the countless opportunities women bring up for easy sex.
Betas are fucked up but I have sympathy for them. I was there, cajoled. Diamonds in brute. Still not good for women since they want all the attributes exposed and realized = safe. Beta makes them cringe. Betas are not “real men”, or, they are not men yet.
As a man the best thing that can happen in your life is to have an alpha to teach you things and lead you by example.
Yeah, there are a bunch of jerk alphas and situational alphas and fake alphas and inflated egos, but the world of beta isnt any better, the same drives plus ten times the suffocation.
December 9th, 2013 at 7:29 pm
You can bet that the little girl is not his. Want to see the woman explode, as for a paternity test.
December 9th, 2013 at 7:33 pm
– Dalrock
December 9th, 2013 at 7:40 pm
You’re absolutely right about that Yohami, you bring up a really good observation.
“Betas look up to him and do his will. Port alpha behavior to any environment and that man becomes the leader of that environment, from business to anywhere else, while betas are happy at his shadow.”
I will take on the job of speaking for all feminists on the planet when I say this is the singular reason for every fault with the entire modern world. EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.
What alpha does should have been outlawed decades ago by a sane and civilized society. But instead, we hero-worship them. Who was it that posted that link to the armchair sports article about team bonding by train-running groupies. This is what you look up to?????? Jesus.
December 9th, 2013 at 7:41 pm
Likewise…men don’t want said “sexually sophisticated” bed-partners to be their wives. It takes a pretty special woman to fill those shoes. You don’t get that highly coveted position by being “sophisticated”. Too easy!
If a woman wants commitment from a high value man (fux and bux) in one package – then it is only fair if she lives up to his ideal too. In other words, if she is a high sexual value virgin, willing to be “sophisticated” with only him. If she has decreased her long-term mate value already in other transactions, however, then it is not a fair deal for her to expect such a “special man” as a husband.
We can go round-and-round, finding objections and why it “shouldn’t be” the case. Any deviation from that point, however, will imbalance this fair trade for someone’s self-interest and benefit. So, we can certainly discuss why we might not want it that way (because it doesn’t allow us personally to “have it all”) but that is not the same thing as fair. One group cannot “have their cake and eat it too” – without unfairly disadvantaging others in the system to make it happen.
December 9th, 2013 at 7:42 pm
And no, sex with lots of women happens for alphas because they have social status. Status comes along with being hero-worshipped. Everything about that is fucked.
December 9th, 2013 at 7:42 pm
LT,
What alpha does should have been outlawed decades ago by a sane and civilized society.
Right, so you dont want any male leaders, just male followers. Who’s going to organize that society? whos going to set the rules etc..
Women?
Fucking kidding me.
December 9th, 2013 at 7:44 pm
Doesn’t sound too bad when you put it like that Rollo.
Impossible though? Is that what you’re getting at maybe?