To start off today’s topic I thought I’d repost a Red Pill reddit thread I received a link-back to last week. Rather than give you my own summary of this guy’s situation, I felt the impact would be more significant by posting it in its entirety; and also because I don’t believe the guy really got a fair hearing on his original post.
I posted this earlier on another subreddit but it ended up getting removed because of fighting in the comments. I’ll sum up what happened thus far. I met my wife 7 years ago, she was extremely picky when it came to sex. She told me she only has been with 1 other guy before. She would never give a blow job, only would do certain positions and found almost every sex act degrading. I was frustrated by this, but I really liked her and hoped over the years she would open up sexually. Over the years, it never got any better but I learned to get over it. Well I ended up finding an old video from her college days of her engaging in group sex with 6 other people 5 guys 1 girl. In the video she has anal sex, oral sex, gets double teamed, and yells multiple times in the video she is a “I am a filthy whore.” All of it she was enthusiastic about it. I ended up feeling really sad. I can understand certain stuff people don’t want to do, but it wasn’t the fact she didn’t want to do them. She didn’t want to do them with me but every other guy she was their whore. I was angry hurt and I ended up saying some stupid shit to my wife.
I asked her if she could drop our daughter off at her sister’s house because I wanted to talk to her. She asked why, I told her we’d discuss after she came back.
I don’t remember all the details of the conversation, so I’ll try my best to sum it up. I was drinking a bit before she came which wasn’t the best idea.
Me: Is there anything about your past you have been hiding about me?
Her: Why are we talking about this?
Me: I just want to know were you in any type of porn or anything like that?
Her: are you taking drugs?
Me: I found your video from college with the other guys. I don’t know who you are anymore and I feel ill being around you.
She starts crying.
Me: Do you have anything to say?
She continues to cry. This was pointless I go to grab my keys to leave. And she tries to stop me.
Me: If you don’t want me to leave then I need you to be 100% honest with me, and tell me why you lied to me for all these years.
She: I didn’t want you to think I was a slut
Me: I would have been perfectly fine if you told me, I would have loved to have done those wild things with you. Look I get it I don’t turn you on like those other guys do. You liked sucking their dicks but not mine.
She: It’s not that, I didn’t want you to think less of me.
Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.
She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.
Me: I don’t want you to do it because you feel like you have to. I want someone that actually desires me.
She: I can change I promise don’t ruin our marriage over this we can work things out. We can go to marriage counseling seriously talk to me.
Me: Marriage counseling won’t change how you feel about me. Look I will try marriage counseling but I want a trial separation for now.
She: Please don’t do this. Don’t throw away our marriage for what I did in college please.
Me: Stop fucking acting like it’s a one time thing. Be honest with me how many guys did you fuck before me. How many guys dicks have you sucked, and how many guys have you let fuck you in the ass.
She: why does it matter, I said I’ll do them with you
Me: I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.
She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change.
Me: I am not divorcing you but I want a trial separation for now, and I want to see how things go, right now I feel sick looking at you.
I ended up leaving my wife kept trying to stop me. She kept on begging saying I could do anything I wanted with her, it was truly pathetic and I lost all respect for my wife the way she was trying to manipulate me with sex.
I am staying at a motel right now; I have been getting constant calls from my wife. She has been asking me where I am, if I tell her than she is going to confront me and I don’t feel like I am ready for that. I feel so fucking drained. I feel bad saying those things to my wife but I don’t know what else to do I am so fucking hurt over this.
As I said before I wouldn’t care if she had a promiscuous past, seriously, wouldn’t care but the fact she did all those things for other guys but doesn’t do them for me hurts me the deepest.
I don’t see how this marriage can be recovered. I can’t change her attraction to me. My father has recently has been diagnosed with a tumor in his lung, and that has already been stressing me out pretty badly.
Please tell me what exactly I can do, my confidence as a man has been destroyed. Before I found out about this, I tried to get my wife to open up sexually but she completely shot it down. I really believe she isn’t attracted to me in the way she was to those other guys. That’s why she felt completely fine being “their whore” but won’t give me a blow job. I want a woman that looks at me lustfully, not that has sex with me to fulfill “wifey duties.”
I don’t feel entitled to other types of sex with my wife. I want her to want to do them. Now even if she does do them it will be out of guilt, not out of desire. I don’t see how we can recover our marriage. I feel really shitty that I won’t be able to seem my daughter as much, especially during her younger years.
I have already made some calls to reroute my paychecks and get my finances in order if we do go for a divorce. My brother works at a big law firm, I am thinking about contacting him to at least see what I should be doing now. Thing is once I call him it becomes the point of no return, if I tell my family members than their image of my wife becomes destroyed. Also I’d have to check because right now she is dependent on me for health insurance, and I don’t want her to be deprived of that if we do divorce, because she has been having health issues. I don’t want to ruin anything but I can’t see how things would ever be okay. If you don’t have any advice for me and are just going to be judgmental please don’t waste your time commenting. I know I said some hurtful things in there but you don’t know the level of hurt I am feeling right now. I have apologized to my wife since then, but I don’t see how our relationship can be recovered.
Edit – I want to make things work, between me and my wife. I understand she doesn’t want to do certain sex acts. I am considering proposing to her the idea of an open marriage. That way we can still be together as a family and we both can have the fulfilling sex lives we want.
There’s a lot going on in this situation, but I think the first thing that should be addressed here is that, personally, I think these sorts of past life revelations are a lot more common than most men are comfortable in admitting. I wish I could say this was the first time I’ve ever encountered a story like his — it’s actually the 7th time, and four of those were personal accounts from men I’ve counseled.
As our culture becomes more technologically adept, electronic records – whether they’re ‘self-shots’, incriminating GNO pics uploaded to various forms of social media, male-stripper party videos, or amateur / semi-pro pornography – will have an increasingly greater role in filling the pieces of the puzzle that constitutes a woman’s relational and sexual past. The real problem will cease to be doing any actual detective work, and more about what a (Beta) man will allow himself to believe about his ‘special snowflake’ in contrast to the gestalt knowledge of women’s behaviors on whole.
There was a recent article posted on Return of Kings by Emmanuel Goldstein detailing the Game necessity of presuming all women are sluts. In light of stories like this it’s hard not to see the pragmatism in that, but at least when you are single, Game-aware and spinning plates you have the luxury and (should have) the foresight to know that even the Good Girls ‘Do’ have the inclination to go feral with the hot Alpha in the foam cannon party in Cancun on Spring Break when she’s in the proliferative phase of her ovulatory cycle.
Predictably, I’m sure the “ooh, ooh men do it too!” wing of the critics gallery will be the first to cry foul, as they ever have, about my drawing attention to the feral dynamics of sexual side of feminine hypergamy. And were it only about one side of women’s pluralistic sexual strategy (Alpha Fucks & Beta Bucks) they might have a point, but it’s the other half of the Hypergamic equation, the part that requires long term male provisioning paired with emotional investment that sets men’s short term sexual appetites apart from women’s short term Hypergamy.
The Best of Her
The author of this reddit thread is feeling the sharp end of that Hypergamic equation. While I’m sure there will be every effort made to paint this man’s wife as some fucked up, emotionally damaged, and conveniently, sexually abused victim (we don’t know this, but that was the default association in the comments of his original thread), the operative I’m driving at here isn’t about her individualized experiences, but the methodology she and all women use to justify their sexual pluralism.
Prior to the advent of technologies that could evidentially prove women’s sexual exploits (often proudly so now) the more visceral aspects of a woman’s sexuality, and the inconvenient hindbrain/hormonal prompts that motivate them, could be kept secret well enough to deceive a man with provisioning potential to commit to the long term security the other half of her Hypergamy demands. As the technology to record this becomes more ubiquitous, more permanent and fluid in its use, as men become more interconnected by it, and as women enjoy more self-affirmation from it, rationalizing her past indiscretions becomes more of an imperative.
Men saturated and conditioned over the better half of their lifetime by the feminine imperative to be the convenient cuckolds to women’s Hypergamy – men like the author of this confession – have an ego-invested interest in presuming the woman they pair with will be “giving him the best of herself” once his ship comes in and all of his patience and equalist beliefs finally pay off.
Only, men like this discover too late, usually well after they realize their commitment has hamstrung their SMV peak potential, that not only have they been a retroactive cuckold (sometimes even moralistically proud to be so), but they’ve been socially conditioned to be one, by their mothers, their emasculated fathers, their sisters, female friends, teachers and the whole of the feminine imperative’s effort for most of their lives.
One of the reasons I, and most of the manosphere, receive so much scorn from plugged-in, feminine primary society is that we risk to expose this process. This author’s story is the inconvenient truth of a pluralistic feminine sexual strategy. Women’s capacity to cash out of the SMP, to raise children, to create a semblance of a family life so conflicted with her single life, on what she thinks should be her terms, all rides on keeping men with a long term provisioning potential (greater Betas) ignorant of their pre-cuckolding and the conditioning that took so long to convince them would be their responsibility.
I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.
The primary reason men become preoccupied with women’s sexual past is rooted in ‘getting the best’ she has to offer him sexually. There is certainly more aspects to this (fidelity, secure attachment, etc.), but as I’ve stated before, all men want a slut, they just want her to be HIS slut. Once the belief that he’s getting the best sex she has to offer him is dispelled, viscerally and definitively, the nature of the Desire Dynamic comes into sharp focus.
I Want You to Want Me
Naturally, once a woman’s true sexual capacity is revealed after the establishment of her normalized, married sexuality, her first impetus is to preserve the provisioning she enjoyed while ‘her secret’ was working for her.
Me: No it is exactly that, there is a thing lying about sleeping with other guys. It’s not that you didn’t like doing those things. You didn’t like doing them with me.
She: I can do that stuff with you. I am attracted to you, you know that.
[…] She: Please don’t waste all of our marriage for this. I am willing to change
What we’re reading here is the script for negotiated desire. Her real desire isn’t for his satisfaction or any real resolution for the deception of her sexual pluralism, but rather a solipsistic maintaining of a normalcy for herself. Our author has no other rationalizations to fall back on, denial of his conditions are no longer sufficient, and he begins to realize a cruel red pill truth – you cannot negotiate genuine desire.
He wants her to want him, he wants her to desire sex with him with the same verve and enthusiasm she did with other men in her videos. He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus. Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place.
December 3rd, 2013 at 7:23 pm
“-sex while intoxicated”
The sugary chick drinks made her do it.
“-sexual conduct involving anything other than P in V”
Because that isn’t “techincal” sex.
“-one night stands or flings”
Because when it happens in a different zip code or a place nobody knows her…that was her alter ego getting the lovin’.
“-incomplete P in V sex”
Whiskey dick is his fault.
And the serpent tricked Eve into eating the apple too.
December 3rd, 2013 at 7:26 pm
@livingtree2013
This is species-wide double-speak. When men are not spending all their attention on women, we’re derided as selfish and shallow. when we put our needs aside for women, we’re somehow broken. At some point you have to face facts that men have some instinctive desire to ignore their own pain in favor of taking care of their wife and kids, and that will get in the way of their own happiness to a large extent if they’re not careful.
What you’re doing is basically blaming the victim because you don’t want to face the fact that the woman is a liar. This man was defrauded, stripped of his best sexual years in commitment to a woman who had not an ounce of honesty, even to herself, about how attracted she was to her husband. You’ll get no disagreement with me that there were red flags that the guy should have seen. But I don’t tell battered women that their failure to see red flags means that I have zero sympathy for their situation. You just did that very thing, only in reverse.
December 3rd, 2013 at 7:28 pm
“Jesus, this one got me worked up, I might have to write another article about this.
OK, I’m ready. Bring it on.”
I love it when you talk dirty during foreplay.
December 3rd, 2013 at 7:29 pm
Living Tree:
Um, no.
The problems here are that the woman in the OP lied to her husband about her N.
She was never attracted to her husband. She is lying about being attracted to her husband so as to preserve the provisioning she receives from him.
She has no problem being sexual. She simply doesn’t want to be sexual with her husband, because she’s not attracted to him.
Your suggestion that women are screwed up about judgmentalism over sexuality misses the mark. She doesn’t care if this man judges her or not; so long as she doesn’t have to do icky things with him that she gladly did with other men before him.
So, you are wrong in saying this has nothing to do with him.
It has everything to do with him.
December 3rd, 2013 at 7:35 pm
Actually, I really like this discussion, but I’m going to say this one thing, then I have to meet a woman for a drink …
My mother used to say “What’s done is did and can’t be undid” which is a line from a play she was in. Meaning, you change it, you can only take this new information and decide what you’re going to do with it.
And for all those Men saying “I could never…” this is a personal choice (and it is personal to the core). I wouldn’t condemn him for working on his marriage or for leaving – either is valid option. But we all have been through some rough shit, and until you’re there, inside his skin, you don’t really know what you would or wouldn’t do – and for what reasons.
But no matter which way he goes – left or right – he can’t unsee what he saw and she can’t undo what she did (before and after marriage). Sucks that this shit happens – but it does on a daily basis.
December 3rd, 2013 at 7:37 pm
Living Tree:
So as to preserve some semblance of credibility, please answer this question:
Do you condemn and denounce this woman’s fundamental dishonesty and fraud as Jeremy outlined above? Do you denounce her intentional lying to her husband about her N and her intentional and deliberate withholding of sex from her husband? This guy just wanted his wife to suck his dick and she refuses him; while he then runs across a video which simultaneously proves beyond all doubt his wife is an unrepentant liar and an enthusiastic participant in all manner of sexual conduct – with men she deems attractive.
Do you denounce this?
December 3rd, 2013 at 7:37 pm
He wants her sexual best, but her 7 years of unwillingness to give him that while enjoying the benefits of his provisioning, his patience, love and perseverance only puts her strategy, the Hypergamic strategy, into perfect focus.
Her genuine desire, her sexual best was never intended for him in the first place.
Best summation of what women are thinking. Still can’t understand why men get married at all.
December 3rd, 2013 at 7:41 pm
As an aside, I wonder what witness protection program she entered – to change her story that much to her husband. But, there were lots of things I didn’t know about my wife before we married. She only brought up the two kids she gave up for adoption because one of them had reached out to her – saying they wanted meet her and she was afraid they would show up at the door one day.
Past lives are very interesting. Still no excuse for not coming clean and/or lying to begin with.
December 3rd, 2013 at 7:45 pm
Well for me marriage is the only legit place you can have sex…otherwise it is a sin. That would be my motivation along with having a family.
But I’m the oddity now…when this used to be the norm. And even with my personal feelings on how I regard marriage…I wouldn’t advise it for any guy unless he knows full well what he is getting into.
I’d rather do more productive things with my time on this planet and let the chips fall where they may.
December 3rd, 2013 at 7:49 pm
@LT,
Well, I’m flattered you’re so familiar with my work. I assume you’ve read this piece:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/06/the-slut-paradox/
And this:
http://therationalmale.com/2011/09/23/wait-for-it/
No? How about this?:
http://therationalmale.com/2013/03/19/quality-women/
Surely you’re familiar with this?:
http://therationalmale.com/2012/10/08/balancing-sexual-pluralism/
In fact, please feel free to peruse this entier blog and find me the quote where I refer to sluts as evil or disposable.
The story is quite the contrary actually – if anything I’m more consistently run up the flagpole for embracing and accepting women’s innate sexuality. Women just get terribly upset when I deconstruct the mechanics behind it so men are better prepared for it.
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:00 pm
“Women just get terribly upset when I deconstruct the mechanics behind it so men are better prepared for it.”
Ah the innate sexuality…otherwise known as the “feminine mystique”.
Women never tell men this stuff and I wouldn’t expect them too. So they get mad when a guy talks about it and could care less about their feelings.
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:13 pm
@earl
I think about this from time to time. Probably because I used to be religious, but not any more. Also because I still occasionally meet women who are honest-to-god virgins (or at least as close as anyone could possibly venture to verify without an exam using some nitrile).
After going red-pill, the female virgin is actually a hot potato, an enigma that’s difficult to reconcile. I can’t find a solution, because I honestly can’t blame her for wanting to protect her virginity. Yet at the same time the world has changed so much with the advent of female birth control, how do I not demand she put some skin in the game? How does one verify she’s not just going to be holding out on you forever like the poor guy in this post by Rollo, without convincing her to notch an N for your sake?
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:18 pm
@LT…
You’d be surprised at how accommodating Men can be with regard to a woman’s sexual past. In fact, we can (and do, as evidenced by this story, and probably countless others) turn a blind eye to it. I knew my wife was on the slutty side – hell our relationship started out as a ONS – and she was more than willing to throw me under the bus and start looking for my replacement (and I still wanted her to be my wife).
Oh, Men may be rough and hard around the edges, but once committed to something, it is deep And I won’t be the one to say “woman don’t commit” because they do – but it’s not the same. And the attraction we feel for our wives may have nothing to do with what she looks like – or how much weight she gained. My (x)wife told me once that “You only wanted to have sex with her when I’m fat and ignore me when I’m skinny” — the funny thing was, I wanted to have sex with her all the time, it was her that didn’t feel the need to have sex with me (but she couldn’t admit that) when she was getting validation out in the world by being one of the pretty girls. When she was “fat” she came to me for validation.
And guess what, even through all this shit – the fact that I have been replaced, that she walked out, that we are divorced – I still love her. So I understand what this Man is going through. Even though you KNOW and I mean KNOW — there is something still there that says….Just Maybe….
My heart goes out to this guy, whoever he is. That kind of pain is unimaginable unless you’ve experienced it. Men are like the Vulcans – once the emotions do flood you, they can overwhelm you.
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:29 pm
I’m not saying she isn’t a liar Jeremy, I’m not saying she isn’t completely selfish, or that she isn’t at fault.
He was not defrauded though, I will not concede that point. Call it victim blaming if you need to, but she was a mess right from the start, from the VERY beginning. She never once gave him what he wanted, or ever gave him any impression that she would ever be what he wanted, so why would he ever think that it was a wise investment?
WHAT THE FUCK????
I’m going to go all metaphorical on you now. Lets say, you want to invest in a business venture. The partner you want to invest with has stated that the venture would be doing something that has an extremely small chance of success, and that the potential payoff for that 1% chance of success is really small, something that could be easily obtained in a much lower-risk scenario, but they really want to try it anyway, so if you’d be so kind as to hand over your life savings please…
Were you defrauded? NO. You were told of the risk and reward right from the beginning.
Do you invest in something this risky? OF COURSE YOU FUCKING DON’T!!!! Only an idiot would do that, doesn’t matter how much you like the business partner.
Ya she seems nice, and she really looks like she needs the money, so I’ll just give her everything I own even though i get nothing in return.
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:31 pm
@Livingtree2013: Your argument, as I understand it, is follows:
This woman’s anti-slut conditioning was too weak to keep her from gangbanging 5 guys on camera, but was too strong to overcome to give her husband a blowjob.
Further, the husband is responsible for not getting what he wanted from her, but she was helpless in the face of her anti-slut conditioning.
Is that a fair summary?
By any chance, are you familiar with the terms “hyperagency” and “hypoagency”?
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:34 pm
@LT
If you won’t concede that, we’re at another philosophical impasse. The male in a relationship gets access to the woman’s, any blockage of that access is fraud. If you get access to the fruit of my labor, I get access to your body. That’s the deal. She’s a liar, she committed to the man without telling him her sexual past while telling him she would not do certain things. She let him believe she wouldn’t do them because of any other reason then the truth. She committed marital fraud by not telling him the truth.
The rest of your typing time might best be spent re-reading what Rollo wrote from another perspective.
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:44 pm
Of course I denounce it Deti, its repulsive! She married this poor guy under false pretenses, so she could pretend to herself that she was something other than what she was.
She feels ashamed by what she did in the past, so much so that it is stifling her ability to even admit that she wants to be sexual! What really angers me is that even now, 60 years after the supposed “sexual revolution”, so many women still feel deeply ashamed about having sexual needs, that they have to cover them up and lie about them.
And her husband is entirely clueless about the importance of shame in female sexuality. He is taking it on as a personal matter, and it isn’t. If she were right in the head, she WOULD want him, or she never would have married him. He made the wrong choice to sacrifice his own needs, is suffering a lifetime of consequences now, and is blaming her.
It is a complete failure of authenticity. This, to me, does not seem like progress, and this case is a perfect example of it.
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:47 pm
I am going to stand on this platform and scream it until you listen.
IF YOU WANT TO MARRY SOMEONE THAT YOU HAVE TO KEEP YOUR PAST HIDDEN FROM, OR THAT YOU HAVE TO SUBJUGATE YOUR NEEDS TO BE WITH, YOU ARE MAKING THE WRONG CHOICE.
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:49 pm
@livingtree2013
That’s pure conflation.
You’re conflating being ashamed of having sexual needs, with being ashamed of sexual deeds. They are night-and-day different things. Shame over choices you made is appropriate and without such shame we would never learn some hard lessons. Shame over what your body tells you that you need is something entirely different and is usually the mark of child abuse. Again, you’re conflating two dissimilar things because you want to excuse slutty behavior by equating the desire to be slutty with the choice to be a slut with anyone.
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:50 pm
Good Lord in Heaven
What a nightmare.
This man chose poorly, overlooked the obvious danger signs and is now suffering the consequences.
Paternity test, divorce, learn and move on. This marriage can never recover
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:50 pm
@LT
The conveniently forgotten part of you metaphor which I’ll fill in now is that your investor finds out that he is the only one quoted that risk assessment for the same investment engine that every prior investor got guaranteed returns on for minimal risk. Who wouldn’t feel cheated by such a revalation?
The problem wasn’t that he made an uneducated choice. It’s that he was fed false information from day one. Essentially there SHOULD have been great returns on his investment. Due to favoritism, they were withheld.
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:53 pm
Apologies, Rollo, I didn’t mean to cast you in that net. YOU may not feel that way personally, as is evident in your work, but unfortunately you are not among the majority I suspect. I have seen more than enough evidence among the comments on these articles that tells me there is still much slut-shaming to be done. And so this is the point of my message.
That, I think, is the real shame.
Indeed I would say that many women are far too uncomfortable with their own sexuality to even entertain having a calm, open-minded conversation about it with you or your readers.
December 3rd, 2013 at 8:54 pm
@livingtree2013
What is this, are we back to AOL days when caps lock somehow made a point more worthy of listening to?
The man was defrauded. The marital commitment is one of committing a lifetime of work, provisioning and protection (for the man) in exchange for reproduction services, sexual services, and feminine support that only women can provide (for the women). He married someone who led him to believe she was attracted to him, even when he was walking out she was outright telling him she was attracted to him. Her actions demonstrate exactly the opposite. Her actions scream loudly that she was never attracted to him enough to give him the same sexual access that she would give total strangers.
How is this not fraud?
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:04 pm
Great post, Tin Man. I’ve long suspected as much. :)
Men try to pretend their all simple and and unaffected and whatever, but I know the truth, they are really very emotionally complex. Probably much more so than women, if the truth were told.
Women are not emotionally complex, they’re just messy, messy from the shit of the world. If there were less shit in the world, or if we could rise above it rather than be brought down so easily by it… well, lets just say this site would have no reason to exist.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:08 pm
No, Roe, you missed the point completely. Anti-slut conditioning isn’t really enough to make women not want to have crazy sex. It may actually make them want to have crazy sex even more, just to be deviant. They just feel shamed about it when they do, because of the anti-slut conditioning.
Then, they choose to marry men who don’t want whores, because it can make them forget (temporarily) about the fact that they might actually be one.
Isn’t that dreadfully obvious?? I thought so.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:09 pm
This post is so raw, touches the bones of my spirit, and justifies every action I have been taking the last 8 years.
Thank you
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:09 pm
LT,
What are you talking about, really.
He accepted her as a non-sexual person. He married that person, hoping to warm her up to sex eventually.
She turned out to be a very sexual person, just not with him. She likes and enjoys sex wilder than he would have wanted, she just didnt see him in that light.
If she hadnt withholded that information he would probably not have married her. Full stop.
Got it?
Their marriage is a fraud.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:09 pm
[…] here at Cigars and Legs don’t usually post relationship style things, but this story about a lying wife just… struck us as odd. That’s […]
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:13 pm
The anti slut defense is needed, even without a moral or religious reason. A slut is more likely to cheat and trade up or look up for strange, and is more likely to be an immature emotional reck.
For the same reason girls have the anti-player defense when it comes down to relationships.
The difference is that players are usually alphas, thus attractive. While sluts come in any variety.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:28 pm
@livingtree2013
You got that men are emotionally complicated creatures from what Tin Man said? Do you only come here to read what you want to think into what other people write?
No, women feel ashamed of deviant sex with strangers because they’ve stupidly offered up their most prized marital asset to someone they have no commitment to, full stop. It is no different than if I went and stupidly gambled away my life savings, just for the thrill of gambling; or drank away my health, just for the thrill of binge drinking. I’ve gone and destroyed my primary marital assets to a woman, all for a cheap thrill.
And no, you’re not getting rid of me LT. I call out BS when I see it, either start thinking about what you write before you write it, or deal with my responses by actually reading them.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:33 pm
@LivingTree2013 – Thanks for taking the time to engage (multiple assailants at once, no less!)
Frankly, no, it’s not obvious to me at all. Debating gender often falls to these misunderstandings, because men & women have such vastly different experiences of these things. The idea that a woman would act in a completely unrestrained manner with men who don’t care much about her, and deny that to the man who displayed love and sacrifice to her is *completely counter-intuitive* to me. And to be blunt I feel *really bad* for the man in this situation, and a little resentment towards the woman – which is part of the problem.
So…. logical consistency then.
If you’re going to, in any sense, exonerate the woman (whatever the mechanism) from responsibility by virtue of cultural forces you’ve got to extend that man the same curtesy. Nice Guys who don’t draw personal boundaries and push for what they want are as much of a product of cultural forces as women ashamed of their past sexual behaviour.
Plus, she lied, he did not. That’s a *really* fundamental ethical distinction.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:34 pm
He reposted his thread in reddit, and also mentioned he filed for divorce. There was a post on roosh forum about it a week ago. About 60% of the people on reddit thought they were getting trolled with the story, and were angry with him. There was a guy who posted a thread a year ago in a city search forum about how he married a woman and found out she did blowjob trains in college, and how he couldn’t go on. Most of the comments there were angry with him as well, telling him he didn’t deserve her. It’s sad that people think they aren’t getting damaged goods, what can you do.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:34 pm
*sigh*
Marriage is a contract, a license must be signed, registered with the state, and there are a myriad number of laws constructed around dissolving it if one or both parties wants out..
Besides a record label contract as a new recording artist, marriage is probably the number one contract that is consistently entered into in bad faith. Yet, somehow, the woman is protected from any and all consequences. She is also not required to have performed her wedding vows at any time during the marriage. Cash and prizes will be awarded regardless of contract fulfillment.
This is nothing but fraud.
A wife that has received every benefit from having a husband and refused to give him the benefits of having a wife, while having visual evidence that she had no problem giving it away for free to non-contractual men.
Any argument to the contrary is just more hamsterized obfuscation.
The end.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:37 pm
I think this is just a technical sticking point, not a philosophical impasse. We can get through this one Jeremy, don’t give up yet!
lol…
Is that the deal Jeremy? Did they make that deal when they married? I bet no-one ever has that type of understanding when they marry, they just make assumptions. Oh, the list of doomed couples I could list here…
Plus, going back to our last argument, this is exactly why women wanted that dastardly “independence”, so they wouldn’t be bound by the confines of the trade, the trade in which they only had one thing of value to offer the world – sex. Don’t you get how demeaning it is to be reduced to nothing more than your sex organs? Its pathetic. At least if we work, we are bringing something else to the table, which (in theory) should mean that we don’t have to be our husband’s personal whore.
Anyway, about the fraud thing. All I mean here is that there was no intention on her part to make him think he was getting a woman who would be sexually liberated. If he thought that would change after they got married, he was fooling himself into believing in fairy tales. He pretended that was what he wanted. She gave him exactly what she presented herself as before they married, she followed through, believing that was what he wanted her to be, but he wasn’t happy, he was faking it the whole time.
For all she knew, if she had told him about her past, he would up and leave her. And what reason would she have to think any differently? Up to then he had falsely represented himself as being happy with her being prudish.
So in fact, yes I guess she was committing fraud, but so was he. Again, a total failure of authenticity.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:39 pm
[…] Saving the Best. […]
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:45 pm
Sure, OK you make an interesting point there Jeremy, but I think that more likely than not, the “deed” was committed out of a pre-existing sense of shame, it is exactly what motivated her behavior. Why would she say “I’m a dirty whore” in the video if it wasn’t about shaming?
I wouldn’t be even the tiniest bit surprised if before the video was made, she’d already been date-raped, and taken the blame for it, so the experience made her have some deeply suppressed feelings of unworthiness.
This chick is messed UP, I’m telling you.
What he should do, this dude here, is leave, and tell his wife she needs to get some really good therapy, and then maybe they might have a chance, but only if they both can learn to be honest with each other.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:48 pm
LT,
For all she knew, if she had told him about her past, he would up and leave her.
It would have happened for sure before marriage.
Please reverse the genders in your mind and re apply. Feminism is getting the best of your reasoning.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:49 pm
LT,
It would have happened for sure before marriage.
Please reverse the genders in your mind and re apply. Feminism is getting the best of your reasoning.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:49 pm
This poor man never had a marriage. He doesn’t have one now and never will have one with this woman. This woman pulled the ultimate cuntery-of-a-scam on this poor fellow. She willfully used him as a financial-slush-fund to lock in a lifestyle she knows she damn well does not deserve. The baby, if it’s even his, is nothing more than a grappling-hook that she used to secure said funds for squanderous use in a planned future lifestyle (Away from Hubby, back to the boys-in-the-band). It’s all part of her diabolical plan. Don’t be fooled. No woman on earth would keep a gang-bang-napshot, let alone, a GOD-DAMN-VIDEO!!! of such a depraved event if she didn’t wantonly crave such depravity. This women has no moral scruples. I don’t have a problem with who she truly is (a depraved slut). I have problem with her filthy-rotten-lies, her calculated sexual starvation of the supposed man she loves and putting on the chaste-wife routine for financial gain. What a load of crap she is. This man deserves the truth. Not lies. If he disapproves of her scandalous past then, she should have sent on his merry-way, not locked him in loveless-sexless-packmule-lifestyle-of-a-marriage. This is the time for Maning-Up and kicking that bitch out.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:50 pm
@livingtree2013
That absolutely is the deal. Would you ever stick with a man who would not provide for you even after you shared your bed with him regularly? Of course you wouldn’t. Neither should a man stick with a woman after discovering she was holding out on him.
You are deceived into thinking you have to measure up to a man in a mans world to have any value to society. That is a false belief if there ever was one. In fact it speaks poorly of female intelligence that you believe that there’s only one yardstick by which your life should be judged. You perversely believe that it is demeaning to offer your body to a man as part of a marriage contract. It’s not, it’s the greatest gift you can give a man and until you’ve actually offered it you have no idea what you’re giving up. You also create a false dichotomy that implies that because women are valued for sex, that they cannot contribute to standard economic industry, this is absurd. This paragraph of yours is filled with logical fallacies and assumptions without evidence.
This paragraph makes me seriously question whether or not you actually read Rollo’s post. There was absolutely no hint of such a thing in the story, you’re creating another logical fallacy here known as a straw man. What actually occurred is the woman let her husband believe she was attracted to him. When he discovered all that she was willing to do sexually with other men, it became quite clear that she was never attracted to him, because she was willing to offer herself to all these other men without offering herself to him.
So lying about your past is preferable to being left? You are justifying being a liar here.
Here’s hoping you actually read what I write, it’s clear you don’t read what Rollo writes.
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:51 pm
LT,
Shame is at the core of it, I concede you that.
Like everything in feminism, rape explains it all. Do you get a high thinking about it?
December 3rd, 2013 at 9:56 pm
@ livingtree2013
You’re creating a distraction again. You’re shifting focus to the woman being messed up and some kind of “victim”. That the woman has issues is not in question, her behavior within a marriage contract is the issue. She lied. She convinced a man she was attracted to him when she was clearly not even honest with herself about who she was attracted to. She committed fraud.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:03 pm
This situation is Game Over. Again, it is a contract that was entered into in bad faith, and there are only enforceable benefits for one side.
The emotional contract between spouses….yet again an area where people are lying through their teeth from day one. And again, in this situation, only one spouse can have her desire fulfilled, Beta bucks….the husband can never have his true desire. Ever.
There is no salvaging this marriage, because there has been a Point of No Return discovery.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:03 pm
I don’t disagree with you there Singl4life, you’re absolutely correct, and I fully understand why he feels cheated. I feel bad for him, I really do, I’m just being a hard-ass here.
But my point is, while yes there should have been great returns on his investment, he easily could have seen those returns with ANY NUMBER of other investment choices!
Instead, he chose to forgo those great returns… and forgo the return that he really wanted… in exchange for something he… didn’t? want? I guess?
And whats worse, he did so on the (admittedly false) premise that he was marrying a chaste woman, in spite of that not being what he wanted, and he OPENLY CONFESSED that he believed would become something different after they married, and that she would change into something he wanted her to be but never told her he wanted, he just assumed she would do it because that’s what women do after they get married, they transform into exactly what they said they weren’t before they got married.
Is this a fantasy that many men believe? I mean, this right here kind of explains the gender gap.
I don’t get it. I guess I would have had to be there. I just don’t understand people’s motives sometimes.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:06 pm
Another tragic case of a ‘nice guy’ learning the hard way. If he wasn’t getting what he needed from the start, why the hell did he marry her?
The sexual history isn’t the primary issue. It’s the lies. She lied about her past. Accused him of being on drugs when he confronted her. What else is she lying about or hasn’t been discovered yet? He needs to get a paternity test immediately.
If he didn’t have a kid, I would suggest immediate divorce. No counseling, no trial anything. However, he does, so he has a decision to make. The relationship will never be the same, but it sounds like it wasn’t that great to begin with. The only chance they have is for her to come completely clean with her past. Problem is, she is a practiced liar. Once trust is gone, it’s pretty much over.
I don’t think the resentment will ever go away and will likely fester over time. Even if he agrees to reconcile, I would guess he is only signing up for a 2-4 year extension. She will divorce him eventually.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:06 pm
,..and in other news 5-way gang-bang bukkake double-penetration amateur video pornography has just been codified as a “Sexual Need” by Femipedia.
More to follow.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:06 pm
*If* this is real… then the dude handled it badly by blowing up so quickly.
YaReally got it. The right attitude would be nonjudgmental about it at first, hard as it may be. As in: “We should do that, you and me” and see where it goes. Does she change of her own accord, which would validate her story, or does it stay the same?
There is a slight chance that she isn’t just lying or not attracted, but honestly felt what made her “slutty” wasn’t the gangbang, but the blowjob and enthusiasm itself, even for one person. So, to turn over a new leaf, she dials back, wildly overcompensates, and becomes a prude.
That established, it’s a separate question whether you want to remain married to someone who would do this. And I’ve done some crazy things, but this is bad…
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:11 pm
I’m guessing that the wife in question was hot and out of the husband’s league. That’s why he’s been afraid to demand better sex all along. If he would have married someone of lower SMV he never would have tolerated the substandard sex. He would have told her gag on his dick or he would leave her.
Don’t confuse my theory with the idea that the wife is anything but a horrible woman. Clearly this woman has the moral compass of Satan.
All I’m saying is that married men have got to stop treating the women like delicate little flowers. JUst flat out tell the wife that that you will be getting sex. And it will be good sex. It can be from her or some other woman. But you will be having sex. It is up to the wife as to whether it is with her or some other woman. The choice is hers. This guy didn’t/couldn’t take what was his all along. What a terrible situation.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:37 pm
Jeremy if you’re just going to get irate about every controversial comment I make, then we might as well stop talking because you may have already noticed, I am controversial almost all the time, just for the sake of opening up the discussion. I read what you said, I read what everyone here said, I just (like usual) think that we are limiting ourselves to a superficial reading of the situation.
People are intricately complex, and that complexity provides endless sources for analysis, if only we are willing to go to that depth. If you don’t want to go there, I can certainly pander to you if you’d prefer. I would like to think that we’d all like to become better at this “life” thing. Am I wrong?
I’m not in any way trying to excuse this woman’s behavior, or any woman who is faking being a “nice girl” to get a husband. I think its an atrocity. Nor am I trying to make him out to be the bad guy here. But the marriage was a sham, and while you want to blame her, I think that both of them are at fault, although for considerably different reasons, both of which are interesting and worthy of discussing.
Are her reasons worse than his? YES, definitely. Does that make us any better off to blame her? No.
Anyway, interesting the line you used:, they’ve “offered up their most prized marital asset to someone they have no commitment to”.
Correct. But I think the bottom line is that women don’t actually place anywhere near as much value on this asset as men do. I especially don’t think that young women today have even a rudimentary understanding of the asset they possess, because they have never been taught that it’s valuable. They’ve been taught that its dirty and shameful on one hand, and a magical tool of manipulation on the other. There is nothing healthy about our culture’s representation of female sexuality.
Sex is a very conflicted issue for women. Maybe for men too, but here’s the conundrum: A man can quit drinking, quit gambling, quit being a whore, whatever. He can always reclaim his honor by good behavior.
But a girl can never, ever get her honor back, because her honor is based on a single, unfortunate decision to have sex before really understanding it.
A woman’s chastity is an asset she can NEVER ever get back, and the wrong decision can ruin her life forever. Unfortunately, by the time they figure out the truth, usually the hard way, usually by some teenage prick, eager to get his count up, foisting himself upon her using some form of deceit, its too late, its gone forever.
Forever. Game over. You’re a slut, before you even knew what happened.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:42 pm
Mmmm, yeah, so much shame she held onto the video for 7 years. Why do you suppose that was? One would think that she would never want to be reminded of all that shame and it would’ve prompted her to destroy it a long time ago, but no. Wouldn’t it follow that the last thing any girl concerned with her husband thinking she was a slut would want to do would be hold onto graphic evidence of her enthusiastic sexual past for him to discover 7 years and one daughter later?
So in light of what these facts imply, was it really shame of her sexuality that motivated her to her shooting a gang sex video she held onto for so long, knowing the risk to her marriage and family life it posed by keeping it for so long? Do you think maybe she got off on watching it a few times during those 7 years?
Do you think maybe she wanted him to find it eventually?
That’s because ASD is a social convention, a tool for the feminine imperative.
http://therationalmale.com/2011/11/09/the-tool-of-asd/
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:49 pm
@livingtree2013 I don’t know what kind of world you live in, but here in the real world, it is male sexuality that is demonized and female sexuality is seen as empowerment since at least 1960 to present.
Though I agree with the first half of your response. His needs were clearly not being met, and yet he wrongly decided against his own best interest to stay with her for 7 years too long.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:53 pm
@livingtree2013
I would go with illogical.
And here we start with a new discussion… No concession to your logical fallacies that you offered in your last reply. No restatement of my points to make it clear you understand what I meant. No alternate perspective offered. All you’re saying is, “wow, I’ve run out of talking points and I still disagree with you, ok, here’s a plate full of new topics and obfuscation.”
Then you concede she committed fraud, she is a liar, and she deceived the man into believing she liked him more than she actually did. So really your entire reply previously could read, “Yes, Jeremy, I agree.”
For once it seems like you’ve read something of the manosphere. But again you’re missing the forest for the talking points posted on the perimeter trees. Women instinctively know their sexuality is valuable to men. They know this instinctively because they notice from young ages that they’re able to hold a mans visual attention longer than other people. Instead of being taught how to protect this asset while dealing with suitors appropriately, most modern women have been taught to ignore it’s value to men. Modern women are in fact taught to ignore men in general until they’re past 25, and to trash that asset however they see fit in what can somewhat aptly be metaphorically called… “spring break”. I’m sure those ladies on the cock carousel have great fun, but it’s can be a half-life of hangover after the ride.
Really? Have you seen what a jail record does to a man’s honor and lifelong reputation? You realize that excessive drinking lands you in jail, gambling away yourself into debt can land you in jail, etc..etc.. You do realize that statistics bear out the fact that men make up about 90% of the prison population, and that men are about twice as likely to be jailed as women for the same crime. I think calling your statement disingenuous is only the beginning. You again are seeing the world only through the eyes of a “victimized female”, ignoring all the truly bad things that happen to men regularly. But of course, we’re far off topic now, so you’ve likely gotten too comfortable with not addressing my calling out of your logical fallacies in your last reply.
Oh no, I haven’t forgotten LT. Yes, I’m keeping track of every point I make that you fail to acknowledge.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:56 pm
@Jeremy, while I understand your point regarding women’s N count, I really think that the root of that discontent for men is wanting to get the best a woman has to offer sexually.
Rollo,
I think you’ve nailed it here. Taking it one step further, I think it is connected to the idea of a “fair trade” taking place. In a sense there is no higher compliment or greater gift a man (especially a higher SMV man with options) can give a woman than to make her his wife essentially making the proclamation I choose you over all others and give up the possibility of experiencing sexually any other woman. The “fair trade” to that is knowing the woman is giving her husband the best she has to offer sexually. If he is getting a vastly “inferior product” compared to other men in exchange for him offering the “best product” (lifetime monogamous committment) then essentially he is being taken for chump.
Women being mostly solipsistic and tending to project I think vastly overvalue the commitment/choosing part because that is what they value and underestimate the “sexual performance” part.
December 3rd, 2013 at 10:59 pm
LT,
May I suggest rereading and editing your comments prior to posting them. I honestly cannot follow some of your comments because they are basically a stream of consciousness of non-sequiturs.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:00 pm
@Rollo
“I realize how twisted this is going to sound, but I can’t help but wonder if the commonness of situations like this aren’t somehow influencing the increased popularity of internet cuckold porn.”
I can tell you from first hand experience that this is EXACTLY what’s increasing the popularity of cuckold porn. I’m ashamed as hell to even admit it, but prior to swallowing the red pill, cuckold porn sucked me in. Shitty sex life with the wife, no physical affection at all, her flirting with my friends, me beta as shit, and before you know it I’m having these twisted ass cuckold fantasies and watching cuckold porn. Scared the living shit out of me.
Long story short, I took the red pill by accident. Just stumbled across it actually. Off porn altogether and now disgusted by the fact that it even had any appeal. Like seriously revolted and absolutely ashamed of myself for sinking so low.
Long, long way to go and who knows if the marriage will ultimately succeed or not, but the truth is I simply no longer care. I now speak my mind, hold nothing back, piss her off on a daily basis and care less and less whether she gives a shit. I do what I want now and spend more and more time doing things I really enjoy doing… and without her.
And I also started fucking the living shit out of her in the past couple of months — still not as frequently as I want but a hell of a lot more frequently than in the past. Pull her hair, spank her ass, demand that she tell me her pussy is mine when I’m fucking her doggy. I’ve never been more turned on sexually in my life because now, finally I’m fucking her like my DNA programmed me to fuck her. I care less and less about her pleasure and more about my own.
And frankly, I couldn’t give a shit whether she’s faking it or not. The way I look at it, she either enjoys it, will learn to enjoy it, or I’ll fuck her right out of the marriage — that is, if it’s revolting to her, at some point she won’t be able to tolerate it any longer.
This has been a huge and royally fucked up awakening. It’s destroyed my faith in love and whether love is even possible, but paradoxically, I’m feeling more emotionally and mentally healthy than I have in years because my value is no longer dependent on phony externalities (the approval of females) which I am absolutely certain caused me to take a pretty nasty downward spiral into some seriously fucked up and unhealthy fantasies.
It’s pretty late in the game for me, but these are lessons I will very soon begin teaching my son.
[Thanks for your honesty, that took courage to type]
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:03 pm
Rollo, one of your best. Now I see why you were not so intrigued by my ideas for a new post. Anything that gets a debate going with Deti and YaReally is first rate.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:07 pm
Meh, not so much,…
http://therationalmale.com/2012/11/06/people-are-people/
LT will never appreciate the red pill perspective because her life’s conditioning has been one of denying the evolved psychology, biological predispositions and hardwired neurological vestiges that influences human behavior today.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:08 pm
Yohami, I’m not sure I get your point. Reverse that how?
Like as in to say, if a man told his future wife about his sexual escapades prior to their marriage, would she leave him? That can’t possibly be a serious question.
Women expect men will have whored around prior to marriage. Even my extremely religious grandmother knew about my granddad before they married that he was a drunken brawler and a scamp. After marriage, completely different story of course, he was as upright as anyone I’ve ever met.
Point being, women don’t even bat an eyelash when men whore around prior to marriage, which I think is to their detriment. Unfortunately, as a consequence, it seems that men who DON’T whore around are the anomaly these days. And tragically, those are the guys that feel bad because they aren’t getting it as much as the “alpha’s”. I just don’t get it.
You want to stand out, you should be setting the example instead of becoming just like everyone else.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:09 pm
I think that both of them are at fault, although for considerably different reasons, both of which are interesting and worthy of discussing.
Why? Because he naively bought the bullshit he was fed for probably decades. Let me tell you something. Most men grow up and most confrontation is physical and direct. Not a lot of men get practice in their teens like women at deception, and playing games, etc. So when a guy hits his 20s he is ill-equipped to either recognize or deal with the sort of Machiavellian fraud many women are capable of with a straight face. You want to blame this guy because he believed? Fuck that.
What gets me is many women, such as yourself or someone like Aunt Giggles (see Deti’s comment) want to blame the guy when he selects a woman of “bad character” yet at the same time demonize Rollo and what he is trying to do here in shining a spotlight on all the various things women are capable of. Many women want to simultaneously keep men in the dark about various aspects of female nature and psychology, yet also hold him partially responsible in situations like this when he didn’t know any better.
One of the reasons I, and most of the manosphere, receive so much scorn from plugged-in, feminine primary society is that we risk to expose this process.
This is gospel truth. Many aspects of female strategy regarding mating are essentially dependent on having a large population of basically ignorant men who happily go along with the program. Educating and more importantly changing male behavior threatens optimizing hypergamy. It’s why someone like Giggles spends numerous posts laying out complete bullshit on female SMV because the ultimate end from the female strategy is to convince both men and women to go along with “age-appropriate” dating.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:10 pm
@LT
“Women are not emotionally complex, they’re just messy, messy from the shit of the world. If there were less shit in the world, or if we could rise above it rather than be brought down so easily by it… well, lets just say this site would have no reason to exist.”
There is a subtle different here – and a point that Rollo made in the post, and has made several times, that until I started reading (Manosphere blogs) and learning (about red pill) – I really had not clue – and it why, there are many, many Men that push back to hard…
I (we) grew up being taught that “it just wasn’t fair” for woman out in the world. It wasn’t fair that they could take advantage of the same opportunities as Men. It wasn’t fair that they were excluded from (fill in the blank). It wasn’t fair that Men go to do (whatever) and they couldn’t, or if they did, they’d be called names (or shamed). Oh, and btw, there is never a reason to hit a woman. Never intimidate them by using your “strength” (or whatever the word would be in that instance).
i (we) was taught this almost from the time we could understand. Also, such axioms as “Be Yourself” “don’t be jerk, girls won’t like you” “Buy flowers or gifts or dinners – woman like that” — and a hundred other little things.
I (we) was taught that marriage is a partnership. And that it’s for life. That whatever troubles you have, you can work them out.
Then once married, when we thought we could relax, the shit really hit the fan. Forget this poor soul that “discovered” a truth about his wife, or that his wife may or may not have lied to him – from day one of his life, he was sold a bill of good and then on some random Tuesday morning, when all he’s doing is trying to find a file on the damned computer, it all comes crashing down on him. That almost everything he “believed”, everything he held dear in his life, all the good and bad in his life, everything that made him who is was – is absolutely destroyed. Obliterated.
And the one person that can make it right, the one person that you thought was your partner, this one person that have built a life with, and a family with – doesn’t own up to her actions, tries to make it right in all the wrong ways.
Until you have gone that path, calling him stupid, calling him an idiot, telling him it’s his fault that all this happened – well, that’s unjustified. I agree buyer beware and sometimes you get what you get. But there was no way for him to be an informed buyer. He’s not a victim, he just a Man that grew up in a fucked up time.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:17 pm
“You just got involved with the wrong girl” is just another variation of “Just Be Yourself”
http://therationalmale.com/2012/01/13/just-be-yourself/
It’s what women (and femen) say when they don’t know what else to say.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:20 pm
@livingtree2013
Great post, Tin Man. I’ve long suspected as much. :)
Men try to pretend their all simple and and unaffected and whatever, but I know the truth, they are really very emotionally complex. Probably much more so than women, if the truth were told.
@Jeremy
You got that men are emotionally complicated creatures from what Tin Man said? Do you only come here to read what you want to think into what other people write?
I don’t know if that’s what I said or not…but I guess that’s how was interrupted. And to tell you the truth, I’m not trying to engage you LT in these comments. Rollo believes in an open forum – and so do I – but there are times when it would be nice to retire to the billiard’s room and enjoy a cigar and brandy by the Boys.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:22 pm
@livingtree2013 As long as women always see men as a walking wallet/ATM machine to exploit and dispose, and feminism remains a force of influence over modern social laws and mores, red pill men will always see women as the said disposable commodity you speak of until some sort of social collapse happens and then the real fun begins.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:33 pm
But I do have to say…
Ole LT has gotten the Boys all riled up!! She showed up Rollo’s comments have blown up. And the stars have come out to play!!
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:38 pm
Trust me, today’s numbers are less about LT and more about the reddit linkbacks.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:43 pm
@Shaman
I find it fascinating that your porn interests warped over time to essentially reflect what your brain perceives as “this is the limit to what I can expect from my sex life” in your reality. I wonder if single guys watch freakier and a wider variety of porn with a wider variety of girls in them than incel marriage guys…and if “reality porn” with average/plain girls tends to be viewed more by guys without game who’s brains tell them that an average looking semi-chubby normal chick is the limit of what they can expect from their sex life. Thanks for sharing.
Also ideally this guy follows your lead. You’re essentially executing MMSL. Unfortunately I think this guy got rocked so hard with such a brutal 7-year betrayal (it had to be a huge “dirty little whore” gang-bang and not even just a BJ video with one guy or something) that I don’t know if he’d be able to execute shit as solid as you have since in the back of his head he’s still pining for “how I wish it was, I’m a victim” VS accepting “this is how it is, now let’s fix it”.
@Tin Man
“Then once married, when we thought we could relax, the shit really hit the fan.”
This is one of the hardest things to swallow about the red pill. I don’t remember which article, but I remember Rollo talking about how men just want somewhere they can relax…but then it turns out that we were fed the lie that once we have a girl who loves us, we can relax with her, and it’s encouraged that we do…except no one told us the truth: that she’ll lose attraction for us.
The Game doesn’t end. That’s why it’s all the more important for guys to learn and internalize this shit when they’re young, so by the time they settle down they do most of it on instinct.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:46 pm
This is one of the hardest things to swallow about the red pill. I don’t remember which article, but I remember Rollo talking about how men just want somewhere they can relax…but then it turns out that we were fed the lie that once we have a girl who loves us, we can relax with her, and it’s encouraged that we do…except no one told us the truth: that she’ll lose attraction for us.
The Game doesn’t end. That’s why it’s all the more important for guys to learn and internalize this shit when they’re young, so by the time they settle down they do most of it on instinct.
One theme Dalrock repeatedly hits is that the courtship never ends. I can’t remember the movie now, but one of the main themes is the HUSBAND winning a competion to win his WIFE from a doctor making moves on her.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:54 pm
@ Morpheus
The movie you’re thinking of is Fireproof
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fireproof_%28film%29
It’s like corporate training for hypergamy.
December 3rd, 2013 at 11:59 pm
Arggh, Jeremy I can’t reply to this tonight, I’m going to have to think on this, more than I can offer you tonight. Its late, I’m tired, I’ve barely eaten, I’m frustrated, and there’s a blizzard going on outside. I have to get on the road.
Talk more tomorrow.
December 4th, 2013 at 12:02 am
Take your time LT. I’d rather you think before writing than not.
December 4th, 2013 at 12:44 am
She’d make a good candidate for cheating on him.
“Unsurprisingly, 81 per cent said that they are more sexually experimental with their lovers than their spouses.”
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2517624/Would-cheat-husband-wears-socks-sex-The-reasons-women-seeking-affairs-revealed.html
December 4th, 2013 at 1:50 am
@Shaman – take it over the edge and enjoy it. As you say, she can deal or GTFO.
I’m still astonished that you guys are bothering to try and educate that retarded LivingTree. It’s like you haven’t yet figured that anything coming out of a woman’s mouth has only one purpose: to deceive you into her frame. Even when she’s agreeing, especially when she’s arguing, and most especially when she’s trying to achieve a consensus or compromise.
The problem when you compromise is that you have walked away from the truth – what is real. You have been lured into a frame that is not your own and into something that is her frame, or as close as she can currently get you into her frame. She can then use that frame as another starting-point for the next compromise.
This progress can and will continue until – surprise! – you find that you have entered her frame fully. You’ve compromised and compromised at her bequest, until you have fully given in and become her bitch. You’re under her thumb, living inside her illusion, instead of her being under your thumb and living in the real world.
There is no surprise that a woman walks from you when she finds how easily bent and twisted from your purpose and plans you are.
Bronislaw Kaper, musical composer and junior saber champion of Poland: when he watched the new music arts deviate from the classics to undisciplined popularity he declared that people, like their music, lose their way. He saw Kenpo deviate from the Way and declared that he saw the very essence of Kenpo dissipate into absurdity. Even Miyamoto Musashi said that it was very easy to deviate from the Way.
So, regarding the poor sod who had a rude awakening: he now knows the lie. The fact that he’s even considering staying in that marriage, let alone apologising to her or considering her health and well being as being anything of concern, shows how strong a grip the lie has upon him. The marriage is dead, get the fuck out of it: I did for lesser things and this is so far over the line that you need binoculars to look back at the starting posts.
1/ post that video of her up on the internet
2/ leave (beating her to a pulp is optional though not advised)
Showing any children exactly why you are leaving is also a priority: make it abundantly clear, even though it scars them. Tough shit, the truth is better than any bucket of lies she can then attempt to force-feed them. “Look, mommy got gang-fucked by five other guys and enjoyed it. This is why I’m leaving: she has no decency in her.” In the end you’re doing them a favour and showing them what real life is like, not the cottonwool swaddling and pap that they normally get.
December 4th, 2013 at 2:56 am
My first impression was that LT showed up (again) and the comment section went to shit (again), but it’s just. too. damn. funny. reading the trainwreck.
I salute your comment policy, Rollo.
December 4th, 2013 at 3:36 am
“Me: I am so fucking lucky. I got married to a whore, that fucks like a prude.”
I am glad I found sites like these a long time a long time ago, because, Jesus, that could have been me.
Easily.
December 4th, 2013 at 4:01 am
There is no “Soul Mate”
December 4th, 2013 at 6:09 am
Aaaaaaaand let’s hear from a professional:
http://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2013/06/12/on-a-mountaintop/
December 4th, 2013 at 7:03 am
LT gets her male attention for the day.
@ Jeremy
“Yet at the same time the world has changed so much with the advent of female birth control, how do I not demand she put some skin in the game? How does one verify she’s not just going to be holding out on you forever like the poor guy in this post by Rollo, without convincing her to notch an N for your sake?”
Birth control is definitely the big game changer. However I still stick with the Bible teaching when it comes to fornication….because that never changes. And by the looks of the results…there is a plenty of good reasons why you should avoid it at all costs.
And how does one verify…well how much does she try to paw at you when she gets the chance…or pursue you…or do things for you. You don’t need to have sex before marriage to see how much she desires you.
December 4th, 2013 at 7:04 am
“What really angers me is that even now, 60 years after the supposed “sexual revolution”, so many women still feel deeply ashamed about having sexual needs, that they have to cover them up and lie about them”
Hey ho, arse-about-tit as per usual.
The reason that women lie about their shagging mileage, so many years after their supposed liberation, is (despite mens’ best efforts to enable their professed desire for independence) because they have money needs, not sex needs.
Women have a steely determination to depend on Other Buggers’ Efforts which defies all reason and looks set to continue to the end of time.
To the extent that they demand that Other Peoples’ Children should be bound in servitude and tithed, to provide for them in old age or indigence, rather than those strangers’ children supporting their own families should they ever be fortunate enough to make enough, after tax, to even have a home or children.
Women are, in the ultimatel analysis, utterly dependent on men. And have only one non-trivial purpose. One wishes fervently that it were otherwise, but they won’t have it any other way. Too difficult.
December 4th, 2013 at 8:03 am
Morpheus,
Depending to what’s convenient each time.
LT even tried to make this woman look like the victim – she might have been date raped! so blaming her would be victim blaming.
Even though I know this is how it works it still fries my brain.
December 4th, 2013 at 8:20 am
“And you need to understand that “whore” is a term that should never, ever be used outside of the bedroom, in any way besides affectionately.”
This could not be more incorrect.
December 4th, 2013 at 8:32 am
While it behooves men to know the nature of women…it is also wise that IRL they don’t go spreading around they know what women are up to. Unless you enjoy getting into illogical arguments with women who just want your attention.
December 4th, 2013 at 8:57 am
@nipnup I totally understand it. Your mistake is that you assume every man wants sex and primarily sex. This guy may want a family life more than sex. I actually don’t really like sex much. I like being a husband, dad, having a normal home, family life, normalcy, having a reliable ally type of wife, and generally having a set of duties that give me aim and direction in life. We both are pretty much asexual – see it like bowel movements, a disgusting but necessary function of the body – although managed to do it because we want kids and thankfully she is now pregnant. So now I have a duty in my life, something to live for.
This seems to be a basic problem with many Manosphere authors, confusing rationality with how people are wired. Surely, if people are wired for wanting sex, and have all sorts of selfish desires to live for, marriage is a bad idea. Irrational.
Then there are people like me, who need to live for something else than ourselves. Who need the validation that we are capable of making a family and thus live up the example of our parents. The validation that we are not worthless, that we can be dads and not nobodies.
This is not a question of rationality. This may be a psychological question, or a matter of hormones. But when and if one has this kind of psychlogy or hormonal level this is a perfectly rational choice.
December 4th, 2013 at 9:07 am
“Long, long way to go and who knows if the marriage will ultimately succeed or not, but the truth is I simply no longer care. I now speak my mind, hold nothing back, piss her off on a daily basis and care less and less whether she gives a shit”
It’s a hell of a thing, isn’t it? Counterintuitive as all get out.
Sometimes the only way to save a marriage is to stop caring about whether it is salvageable.
Sometimes the only way to save a marriage is to stop trying to save it.
Sometimes the only way to save a marriage is to start destroying it.
December 4th, 2013 at 9:19 am
Counterintuitive is pretty much how you deal with women.
December 4th, 2013 at 9:45 am
@sunshinemary
“Is that really true? Would it really be okay with you to see your hypothetical wife on video doing that kind of thing if she were also happy to do it with you, too?”
I’d accept it, to a limit tho. If she enjoyed performing with me as much as on the video, at least she’d be consistent. It might leave a sour taste in my mouth but i accept there is no ‘the one’. Depending on age, i wouldn’t expect who i was with to be sitting in her locked tower waiting for me to one day come rescue her.
That said, i’d leave in a heartbeat if i saw her getting a train run on her by the football team.
And if she had 50 tapes, with 50 different guys.. she’d be history too.
I still love how LT conflates female sexuality and desire for sex needing to equal experimentation with hundreds of partners.. as if fulfilling the ‘slut’ requirement cannot be done with a single partner.
A woman can learn everything about her sexuality, her desires and satiate her love of sex with a minimal of partners. Enjoying sex is not the mark of a slut. Enjoying the feeling of smelling the ‘new car scent’ to the point of addiction makes you a slut. It’s the partner count stupid. Hence the opening picture in the post of the condom collectress.
December 4th, 2013 at 9:49 am
Morpheus, 12/3, 11:09 pm
Spot on, steel on target.
The argument Susan Walsh and like minded women often make is usually something like this:
“Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get that you guys were fed a load of BS. But come on, guys! You lived in the real world! You were getting rejected and saw the bad boys and the dickbags getting laid left and right! How come you didn’t figure it out?
“You should have ignored everything everyone else was telling you. You should have defied your parents and told them to piss up a rope. You should have deliberately disobeyed the authority figures in your life. But hey. You fucked up, you trusted them. You actually believed what they were telling you,
“Despite the fact that you were young, impressionable, inexperienced and with no power to change any of it, you should have done so. You should have changed it. You should have bucked everything around you, all by yourself, with no help or guidance or instruction from anyone. You should have defied and disobeyed everyone around you, even on pain of severe penalty and retribution from them.
“You didn’t, and so you made a poor choice. Oh well. Too bad so sad. Now SHUT UP. We’re sick of hearing you whine and complain about decisions that YOU made. It’s YOUR fault that you made decisions with shitty advice and wrongheaded notions about the world that WE gave you. They’re still YOUR decisions. You should have figured out that we were full of shit, but you didn’t. We don’t care about your problems; we care only that you are there to be boyfriends, husbands, packmules and servants for OUR needs, how we need you, when we need you.
“So SHUT UP and put your nose back to that grindstone.”
December 4th, 2013 at 9:56 am
@BlackPoisonSoul
Yes, but understand, LivingTree doesn’t understand that that’s her own purpose. She believes she’s being rational.
I was actually more shocked that Kate thought LT had valid points than anything else.
December 4th, 2013 at 9:57 am
“What gets me is many women, such as yourself or someone like Aunt Giggles (see Deti’s comment) want to blame the guy when he selects a woman of “bad character”yet at the same time demonize Rollo and what he is trying to do here in shining a spotlight on all the various things women are capable of. Many women want to simultaneously keep men in the dark about various aspects of female nature and psychology, yet also hold him partially responsible in situations like this when he didn’t know any better.”
Exactly right.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:00 am
Is that really true? Would it really be okay with you to see your hypothetical wife on video doing that kind of thing if she were also happy to do it with you, too?
No.
Some guys may say that they wouldn’t care, but that’s simply not true. Men are visual, and the shock of seeing her not only doing it, but enjoying it(which is where the real pain comes from for men), would be something that you would never get past.
Even if she did it with you, you’d never be able to get rid of the nagging questions…..what else has she done? And with whom? And is she faking with me? And does she secretly want to do my friends?
In terms of cuckold porn, that has to be filed under the heading of, ‘Good Fantasy, Bad Reality.’ It’s something that guys just think would be fun.
If you like a moron sit there and watch some guy screw the hell out of your wife and think that your relationship will ever be the same, think again.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:03 am
This is just a lazy shlub who never wanted to face reality. I feel bad for him on a personal level because this is a heartbreaking situation. However, with so many clear red flags in prior behavior, the only lesson we should draw is to take life seriously and not settle for anything except what we really want. The woman is just a disingenuous bitch, but the reason we have a victim is because he willingly let himself become one. Otherwise, she would be trolling for a different sucker.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:04 am
@ Rollo
“LT will never appreciate the red pill perspective because her life’s conditioning has been one of denying the evolved psychology, biological predispositions and hardwired neurological vestiges that influences human behavior today.”
CH’s post yesterday on brain pattern science must have sent her over the edge.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:10 am
It’s probably too late for this marriage, but this may help the guy in the future:
No More Mr Nice Guy
I feel bad for the guy and even worse for the daughter. However, he is an example of the pathology of the ‘Nice Guy’ that infects so many men in the world. It is the nice guys that are the betas in the ‘beta bucks’ side of the equation. Most of the white knights in the world are also nice guys. It is a disease that enables much of the bad behavior of women, and it is the nice guys/betas that financially support the whole rotten system.
Women aren’t going to change unless forced to.
The Nice guys must change – they must be cured though self knowledge and red pill knowledge. It just sucks that so many men only wake up after their world is destroyed. Stories like this and the millions of others like it should be required reading for young men, or even better, a father should have be the one to open their sons eyes.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:14 am
@earl
I’d rather leave God’s commandments out of this, if only because Rollo and others have outlined perfectly valid reasons for women to want to protect their virginity even if religion never existed.
I would say that that is not verification. I’ve actually witnessed friends *and* family fall prey to women who were extraordinarily “hot-to-trot” (but chaste) while dating, only to turn into icebergs after marriage. My brother had this happen to him with his first wife, she was totally eager to engage in everything up to the deed before, but when married they had sex like twice a year or some such. This is why I say that it is not verification.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:17 am
It’s obvious the guy in the story fell in love with her and did the ‘feminine imperative’, feminist approved right thing to do every step of the way..
Not press for her for the sex he wanted
Not be a dick and respect her boundaries
To repress his beastly sexual oppression of wanting her to give him a blowjob.. that animal
To accept her ‘as she is’, faults and all
Respect her needs and wishes
What kind of sick twisted fuck are you to think of NEXTing such a wonderful woman because she won’t sex you up like you want you borderline rapist
Blowjobs are oppression.. but you go down on her and you like it boy.. or she’ll find someone else who can be a man and do the j.o.b.
If you love her, you’ll tough it out
If he nexted her early, he would have been the villain. He nexts her after the tape, he’s a villian. He’s damned every way. There is no winning play in girlworld except sucking it up and taking it.
You can’t negotiate desire, she has none for him.
If he had this tape 7 years ago and saw it before getting married, im sure they’d never gotten married in the first place, either for being outted for a slut, or for realizing he was getting tepid sex in the wake of other ‘stranger menfolk’ getting the best sex she had to offer.. in feminist parlance.. ENTHUSIASTIC CONSENSUAL SEX.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:20 am
Jeremey said:
“I’ve actually witnessed friends *and* family fall prey to women who were extraordinarily “hot-to-trot” (but chaste) while dating, only to turn into icebergs after marriage. My brother had this happen to him with his first wife, she was totally eager to engage in everything up to the deed before, but when married they had sex like twice a year or some such.”
And they say guys who use game to trick a women into bed are manipulative…
December 4th, 2013 at 10:22 am
@New Yorker
I tend to agree. Being blind and unaware of your surroundings is not the mark of a victim, it the mark the next antelope that kills. There are not victims, we are the makers of our lives – that is first thing this Man will have to realize. It was his choice to first date then marry this woman – from what I can gather, this was not an arranged marriage – there were no guns pointed at his head. It was still a choice.
Once again, this should be a cautionary tale to any Man that is not married today. Take your time, truly “vet” the situation and people involved. You are not buying a pack of gum at the convenience store. This is not a trivial matter.
Most of these heartbreaking stories, could have been averted, if a little more time was taken to be “logical” in the decision process and not driven by emotions. Someone mentioned staying within your Frame, not the woman’s – I think most men, when they decide to get married, get lost in their soon-to-be wife’s frame – it is the first step to becoming the “Great American Beta Husband” [insert different country as needed].
December 4th, 2013 at 10:35 am
The good news is they divorced about as amicably as you’ve ever seen. No kids, assets split down the middle, no alimony. He still lost out on the deal, because he paid for her degree in accounting.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:38 am
We don’t care about your problems; we care only that you are there to be boyfriends, husbands, packmules and servants for OUR needs, how we need you, when we need you.
Deti,
I think you just crafted the clearest, most concise definition of the feminine imperative. Sadly, this basically summarizes the HUS “mission” as well. With the new echo chamber of comments, you can actually see this attitude above on full display. I’ve noticed one of her new buzzwords/catch phrases that she likes to use over and over again is “emotional intimacy”. The “good guys” are capable of “emotional intimacy”. What becomes clear though is she is absolutely clueless what this means from a male perspective in terms of expectations. Emotional intimacy is a one-way street flowing from the guy to the woman.
Rollo, maybe a post idea there on “emotional intimacy” and what that means to a guy/husband? I might take it up myself, but I think you would probably do a much better job than me tackling the subject. I’m not sure you’ve written on it before from a male POV.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:40 am
I think people are forgetting the volatility of a woman’s own desires. This guy did the Alpha thing (mostly) and flat out confronted her on her prudish behavior.
However, desiring a woman to want to do those things should be of no consequence to him. I know it seems like he’d be using her and that she’d be doing it out of fear. But eventually that fear will subside and as long as she keeps on doing those things with him in the process, she will want to do it.
Right now, this man is choking on the Red Pill (can we get a different analogy for it, I hated that fucking movie), but I think he can turn things around.
This is whole ordeal is exactly why slut shaming is essential for civilization. Past slutty behavior often ends up with prudish, uptight behavior later on, once a white knight has “saved” her. But there is always that lingering uneasiness that he wasn’t her best and that she doesn’t want to be his slut. And thus we see the end of marriages as a result.
It is better for a man to marry a virgin or remain single. Always has been, always will be until the end of this life.
December 4th, 2013 at 10:41 am
@Deti… Yes, counterintuitive and 180 degrees different than everything I was told when being raised by a single mom (absent beta father) about being a “nice boy.”
Intriguingly, I had my alpha and beta days growing up. Alpha always worked and got me laid, beta never worked and got me dumped or LJBF’d. You think I would have internalized the results and opted for alpha but the feminist imperative/feminist conditioning was THAT strong.
@Redpillsetmefree
“In terms of cuckold porn, that has to be filed under the heading of, ‘Good Fantasy, Bad Reality.’ It’s something that guys just think would be fun.”
I never thought of it as “good fantasy”. It’s not even that I thought it would be fun or enjoyable. And it wasn’t something I ever wanted to really try…ever. Best as I can deconstruct it, it was the eroticization of shame pure and simple — the subconscious shame I felt as a consequence of pedestalizing women and still being walked all over by them.
The shame eventually sought an erotic outlet until I realized what was causing it. I can almost guarantee that men who have cuckold or “hot wife” fantasies are dealing with huge degrees of shame and are revolted by their beta behavior.
The good news is that the minute I “alpha’d up”, the fantasies evaporated and I now have no interest or compulsion whatsoever in revisiting these very dark recesses of my psyche.