Flushing the Nest

Esteemed SoSuave member HITHARD relates a recent flushing of a nest:

It must be an attitude shift or something. But every time I come back to the SS forums my relationships blow up. I don’t notice myself doing anything different but if I’m with a girlfriend they must notice a change and purposely start pissing me off. Perhaps it’s a good thing, a wake up call that I’m not with the right girl and I should go back to FB for a while. My now ex started getting bitchy last week and it just escalated from there. I’m pretty laid back – but arc up if someone tries to stand over me or dictate terms. Her jaw dropped when I told her to pack her things and leave. She hasn’t been living here on a permanent basis but had managed to horde a bit of her stuff over here in the past three months. She was a really nice girl, very pretty good with money. But she started to not so much nag, but nitpick at me and I’m over that at this stage of my life. It’s either something she has managed to hide for all these months or I bring it out in her. Either way it’s a no go from here. Am I being selfish over this?

So perhaps SS is bad for me short term but a deal saver long term. Or it’s a subconscious thing of ‘relationship is already over time to go on SS’
After all the FB, plates and relationships, I do look around and am just not impressed with the quality of the women out there.
I do worry I’m starting to form a trend of breaking it off with women when I get bored or irritated though. My longest LTR was with what I think was a BPD chick long before what I knew what BPD or the SS forum was. I sometimes worry if that has left a lasting effect.

There’s always going to be a contingent of guys – mostly White Knights, but some well meaning red-pill men too – who’ll presume you’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater when ever they read a situation like this. A Scarcity Mentality is one of the hardest mental schemas Men deal with in transitioning over to becoming Game-aware. For most, the better part of half their lifetime has been spent in a psycho-social condition that’s taught them women are to be prized, and her intimacy is a rare and precious gift, rewarded to only the man who can prove himself worthy of it.

It’s a hard schema to unlearn, and even the most unapologetic of PUA still feels that twang of doubt about a decision to NEXT a girl he thought might be of LTR potential. So it’s no shock that to NEXT a woman for what appears to be some minor infraction of nitpicking seems like a wanton overreaction – like stomping on a flower before it has a chance to blossom. Necessitous men, and men recovering from being so, will often adopt the same mentality women will when they hear about situations like this, and call it callous, or selfish, maybe even vindictive of past hurtful experiences. The reason for this is because these men, and women by default, still view monogamy from the perspective of the feminine imperative. Monogamy is meant to serve the feminine, so any action that controverts that, no matter how justified, is by definition selfish.

In the time I’ve been writing in the manosphere I’ve read more stories about how Game saved an LTR more so that the reverse, but that isn’t to say there aren’t breakups that result from a new Game-awareness. Hithard’s self-evaluation about his NEXTing isn’t unexpected. His story isn’t the first I’ve encountered about “Game destroyed my LTR” – that Scarcity Mentality self-doubt needs a scapegoat and Game is an easy foil for this, especially for guys who’ve just unplugged, pushed the envelope back against the shit they were accepting up to that point and the LTR imploded. In virtually everyone of these instances where a man reclaims his balls and the result is a breakup, inevitably the guy realizes what a tough, but ultimately good decision it was to rid himself of a toxic woman, or a woman too insecure in herself to want to relinquish frame after having been in control for so long.

Often enough, a breakup is the red-pill solution.

Flushing the Nest

However, I know Hithard (virtually) well enough to know this isn’t his case. He’s been unplugged for a while now, so my guess is twofold:

First I think there’s more to the ‘nitpicking’ and the nesting that this girl was initiating than he’s going into detail about. I think he’s trying to be more judicious about this because he’s seen (or is subliminally aware of) behavioral cues and attitude cues that are familiar to him from his prior (BPD) LTR, and wants to give her the benefit of that doubt.

He’d hit the 3 month point, and this is usually the time when a woman starts to get comfortable enough with a guy to attempt a frame grab. The obvious tell was how she was semi-permanently establishing a nest at his place. Never a good idea, but entirely expected of a woman who feels the urgency of sex decline with her competition anxiety. I don’t know for certain that this is Hithard’s experience, but it follows a very consistent pattern. At the very least she’s reached a stage at which she feels comfortable enough to make demands of behavioral change (nit picking, nagging, complaining).

On a basic, relational level these are shit tests, but these are now the variety of shit test that qualifies for LTR frame control, as opposed to the types of shit test a man receives whilst dating when the urgency of competition anxiety mediates a woman’s delivery. For example, while single, only the most vapid, self-absorbed women will feel comfortable in making the demands most other women will commonly expect of their LTR man. When single, the art of the shit test is in its nuance and subtlety, when monogamous the shit test is overt and unmistakably direct.

Secondly, after a certain age (SMV), and after some degree of prior relationship chaos there’s a want for some sense of stable normalcy. Most guys are all too willing to compromise what seem, at the time, like small concessions to their women’s demands in exchange for keeping the peace and the legs open. The problem is that this progressively becomes a situation of death by a thousand paper cuts, or frame control by a thousand conceded nitpickings. For beta men, frame control is ceded as part of their wedding vows, but of the Alphas I know who were “fixed” by their women, their backsliding into beta-dom was the result of an incessant etching away of that Alpha dominance by a steady stream of small shit tests and concession of frame by little compromises.

Dumping a woman is DHV (demonstrating higher value) of the highest order. True or not, It implies you had other, better options than her. Dumping a woman is the antithesis of the Scarcity Mentality and it broadcasts this not only to her, but her girlfriends as well as any other girls in her (your) social periphery. Dumping her implies you’ve just gone from a comfortable, familiar beta to the indifferent Alpha that she never realized you had a capacity for. My guess is Hithard will hear from her again. At first it will be desperate and crying, later it will be casual with feigned nonchalance – don’t take the bait.

Whether or not Hithard takes her back or bumps her down to fuck-buddy status, the message is now clear for her – he will control the frame. She will enter his reality or not at all. Most freshly unplugged guys have a very tough time owning this, because for most of their lives it’s been endlessly bashed into their heads that they don’t deserve it. This is the conflict Hithard must resolve.


52 responses to “Flushing the Nest

  • Danger

    I haven’t replied to that thread yet, but great job on frame control hithard.

  • Coy

    You will not believe how much I needed to read this.Just NEXTed a bitch.Not the LTR nexting though but her shit tests were too overt and she was getting too bitchy … going NC.

  • John Galt

    Usually, a woman will have the “its more convenient” excuse when she wants to leave behind her hair products, wash products, etc, when the obvious reality is that she is marking her territory, so to speak.

    I like to reframe immediately and say “Sure, you can leave your stuff here. The girl drawer is 3rd from the top”.

    Win.

  • Nick

    A scarcity mentality is still a challenge I face, whether it’s a missed approach opportunity or not escalating with a girl. I haven’t had an LTR since unplugging last year, so I know that when I do, having a consistent girl will refresh the idea of scarcity, so it’ll be an ongoing process to determine if I’m settling or if the LTR is worth continuing. Like you said Rollo, I think Hithard saw and felt more cues than he’s letting on to. The thing with “unplugging” or “swallowing the red pill” is that its not instantaneous as the monikers suggest. It takes time to “Kill the Beta” and you never do quite finish the job, you have to guard against the resurgence of the counterproductive (but comfortable) Beta behaviors that I exhibited, unsuccessfully, until I was 28. Though I regret the time I wasted on what was obviously an unproductive strategy, I’m hearted by the fact that my SMV is still years from its peak, while women my age are fading fast. I still have to stay focused on being willing to drop a girl who may have great assets, but tries to steer me back into supplication. Thanks for the great posts Rollo, keep them coming. Spending a couple afternoons to read your archives has been one of my most valuable investments of time ever.

  • cynical optimist

    “by default, still view monogamy from the perspective of the feminine imperative. Monogamy is meant to serve the feminine”

    This, this and this again epic post.. No longer rose tinted glasses shall i wear but entertain any paradigm shift not to serve the matrix.

  • Rooster

    “I like to reframe immediately and say “Sure, you can leave your stuff here. The girl drawer is 3rd from the top”.”

    One tip I heard from an old Dave DeAngelo CD was to have a large glass bowl in your hallway. When a woman leaves anything behind in your house place it in the glass bowl. The next time she’s there she won’t be able to avoid seeing her stuff in the bowl. An additional benefit is she might be seeing other female’s stuff in the bowl which is a great catalyst for competition anxiety. Even if some of the stuff is from platonic females (or if you’re still in the ‘fake it till you make it’ zone and bought some female knick-knacks specifically for the bowl), she’s not to know that.

  • S

    Look if a guy dumps me..directly or indirectly..game over..cut off..doesn’t exist to me..move on. Be downgraded to a FB??? Are you kidding me?

    And I certainly would not reduce myself by having to submit to his terms and conditions..in order to keep him..either. What the f**k? It seems many women do not have an ounce of self respect. Cut him off and..check. mate.

  • Johnycomelately

    “She will enter his reality or not at all.” +1

    “And I certainly would not reduce myself by having to submit to his terms and conditions.”

    Fifty shades of Grey says otherwise…..

  • S

    Fifty Shades of Grey my a**. If other women wish to recreate that f**ked up, codependent relationship within their own lives that’s their prerogative. I personally..refuse to be manipulated into a dynamic that does not sit right with me.

  • YaReally

    @Rooster

    A Natural buddy and I both do that. It works exactly like DavidD says it will lol plus it’s also fucking hilarious.

    It’s a little trickier when you’ve been dating her for a bit and she wants to leave a toothbrush (vs the territory-marking “leave-behind” DavidD’s talking about). I’ve allowed them to leave hairbrushes or toothbrushes but I make them leave them out of sight (under the sink, in my closet, etc) which takes the fun out of it for them because half the reason was to mark their territory for other girls.

  • YaReally

    On Hithard’s issue, don’t stress it dude. It comes down to the saying “I could be happy being poor if I’d never been rich.” People settle for shitty significant others because they have scarcity. They literally can’t even comprehend how you could toss a girl for something that to them would be so slight.

    But you know what you want as a man, you expect a certain standard of behavior from the people around you and you demand certain things from the woman you allow to be lucky enough to be on your arm. Why would you ever apologize for that? Ya think any of the manginas begging for permission from their fat nagging wives to watch the Superbowl could be described like that? Fuck no.

    The woman you settle with could one day be raising your kids and have access to half your money etc. It would be ridiculous to settle for less than you want.

  • feral1404

    I would caution the recently power-imbued unplugged red pill man, however, not to become an insta-dumper just because she didn’t get you the right kind of beer from the fridge.

    Women shit test. If she sees you as at all worth it, that’s what she’ll do to determine relationship fitness. Smack that shit test down HARD, playfully flip flop it back and forth like a lion playing with live food, reframe and amplify, etc., but I wouldn’t blame a fish for swimming or a bird for flying or a girl for lying.

    Sure, if she’s a nag-whore or a BPD, kick her stat, but no one is perfect. Maybe go that extra mile, and if she’s got the rest of her shit together (young, pretty, eager to please, good with money), go the harder road and instead of ‘nexting’ her, modify her behavior to your liking.

    I’m presently tweaking a pretty decent girl right now and on the balance, I like what I’m seeing: her becoming conciously aware that I now run the frame and her voluntarily submitting because she knows that I DO have options (and she likes that). Changing a woman even a little bit is way harder than “next,” but in my opinion it’s far more worth it when I watch her friends drop jaw at her getting up to fetch me something simply because I nod in her direction. Now THAT gets pussies wet.

  • David

    “It seems many women do not have an ounce of self respect. Cut him off and..check. mate.”
    Seems to me the check mate occurred when the man gave her the boot. Dumping someone that already dumped you is not a check mate – it’s just licking your wounds.

    “And I certainly would not reduce myself by having to submit to his terms and conditions..in order to keep him..either.”
    No worries – if he’s kicking you out, 9 times out of 10, he’s not trying to improve terms or conditions. He just wants you gone.

  • S

    No the check mate occurs when you walk away without doing what a lot of women seem to be doing..sticking around after being dumped (yet again, directly or *indirectly*), seeking validation..offering themselves as willing to be downgraded…further elevating his ego. The check mate occurs when you pick yourself up, dust your ass off and move on without a backward glance..onto better things I would hope.

    Now I have not been in a situation like this (yet, hopefully never) but I know it’s the way I would behave. He wants me gone? I’d be gone in a flash.

  • David

    No harm done then, S. I think there’s a lot of bad blood between the genders, with nuts on both sides and it will apparently get much worse until it burns itself out. I grew up in Europe, and gender relations are palpably different there – I’d never marry an American woman, though I grant there are good ones out there, but the legal system does not encourage me to take a gamble on one. All the best to you.

  • BlackCat

    “S” – you sour grape hamster, you just don’t get it.

    He has already said my way or the highway.

    All of your posing, saying that you would leave with head held high, is just accepting one of the choices that he has already given you: the highway. You have no power over him whatsoever at this point, so all your bluster about check.mate is nothing more than sour grape posing.

    Furthermore, if you are nagging and making demands to the point where a guy feels the need to show you the door, you are already invested enough in him, and the relationship, that your keyboard jockey protestations are meaningless.

  • Mike C

    Fifty Shades of Grey my a**. If other women wish to recreate that f**ked up, codependent relationship within their own lives that’s their prerogative. I personally..refuse to be manipulated into a dynamic that does not sit right with me.

    S,

    I’m genuinely curious…what is it you hope to accomplish or learn by reading and commenting at this blog?

  • Michael of Charlotte

    “It’s a hard schema to unlearn, and even the most unapologetic of PUA still feels that twang of doubt about a decision to NEXT a girl he thought might be of LTR potential.”

    But shouldn’t it feel somewhat good at least? I ask because I think I have to next a girl that seemed like such a sure thing in the beginning. Now it feels like I screwed it up badly.

  • strikeforcemorituri

    “Whether or not Hithard takes her back or bumps her down to fuck-buddy status, the message is now clear for her – he will control the frame.”

    That sentence alone is worth it’s weight in gold!!!

    Guy’s really need to understand that when used judicially (and I stress judicially) Nexting a woman can be the best thing to happen to a LTR.

    Great post. Keep em coming!!!

  • S

    @ BlackCat,

    I have not been in this situation in reality, I am jut saying how I would react. If he says it’s my way or the highway..the woman does have the power to take the highway. If she has to “nag” then she’s not happy..she should find someone who’s behaviour she doesn’t feel the need to modify.

    @ Mike C,

    It’s just interesting reading a little from the male perspective…maybe I might learn something useful for a future relationship (or perhaps current). I cannot see myself posting or reading long term.

  • hithard

    “Look if a guy dumps me..directly or indirectly..game over..cut off..doesn’t exist to me..move on. Be downgraded to a FB??? Are you kidding me?”

    She won’t be downgraded to a FB (just my sloppy wording and grammar) for two reasons:

    1. I do respect her and like her enough not to waste her time in hoping we might get back together

    2. I’m not interested in the power games that occur when you have an ex as a FB, ends in a crazy mess.

    In no way am I saying it can’t be played the opposite (been there done that) of the above two points.

    A relationship is one of the biggest investments you can make in life. Simply because the years can slip by while you are in one. Time is your most important asset and nothing could be worse than wasting years in an unhappy, unfulfilling relationship. My time is precious so while it might seem harsh in breaking it off, it actually benefits us both in the long run.

    No one is without fault. But when these situations arise I have to judge her character, actions and then attempt to have the foresight to see if it’s worth going on with.

    As an example I notice all her friends husbands are miserable and beaten down. None of their wives add anything to their lives but the promise of sporadic sex. They have all flirted with me on numerous occasions.

    So all these small actions,environments and social groups form a picture of who she is. So while she has been trying her best to be a three month angel the halo slipped enough to eject.

    And while I do hold all the cards I’m not interested in taking her back. I have enough going on to worry about a power struggle being thrown into the mix. Or wasting either of our time.

    “And I certainly would not reduce myself by having to submit to his terms and conditions..in order to keep him..either. What the f**k? It seems many women do not have an ounce of self respect. Cut him off and..check. mate.”

    Women that say this often push back the hardest while riding me a week later. I do not expect total submission – more that we both enjoy the journey (with me at the wheel).

  • BlackCat

    @S

    If she has to “nag” then she’s not happy..she should find someone who’s behaviour she doesn’t feel the need to modify.

    1. You misunderstand what is referred to as nagging/nitpicking. Read the blogpost and various male comments again for better comprehension.
    2. All women attempt to nest and mate-modify when they think they can. If not at the start, then at some future point in the relationship.

    I am jut saying how I would react. If he says it’s my way or the highway..the woman does have the power to take the highway.

    There you go with the “power” thing again. How empowerrrred wymyn feminist. No. There is no power there. None. All the power lies with the man saying “my way or the highway.” She either accepts his conditions and stays, or leaves, but either way she only has the choices he gives her. This is why talk about check.mate and power is, quite frankly, laughable.

    Here is a simple analogy:

    You have worked for a company for a while. You are comfortable in your job, and have come to believe that your position is stable and the company ‘needs’ you, so you start to ask for perks or try to change how things are done or the company culture to better suit you (and let’s face it – because you think you know better). Well, after a while you get called into the boss’ office and told that your behavior is unacceptable and that you will either conform to the company or hit the road. Offended, you quit on the spot and walk out the door with head held high, proclaiming loudly to yourself and anyone else who will listen that, “Well, I sure showed them. check.mate. I exercised my power over this company yessiree. You’ll see. You’ll be begging to take me back once you realize how much you need me.” etc. etc. etc.

    Can you not see how pathetic this looks?

    Now, if you simply left quietly with your dignity intact and never looked back, that would be one thing. But trying to claim check.mate and power? That you showed him who was boss? Wow. ROFLMAO

  • Mark Minter

    I am older than most of you. One of the bittersweet things about this blog for me is the old “if I knew then what I know now” adage. My 17 year marriage was a wrestling match with a BPD woman that turned me from a minor alpha into a demoralized and almost ruined beta. This blog explained to me so much of what happened over the course of that relationship. (Thanks Rollo. You really helped with that essay) You too have your own realistic SMV. If you squander it on women with various personality disorders, sticking in there because it is tough to leave, that you bought into “proper male behavior”, then your recovery after you get dumped or recognize finally that you have to leave will be harder. Trust me, going out into the world at 48 and trying to reconstruct your life from scratch is much harder than walking out of a bad scene when you are 33. I did it. It sucked.

    If you have guilt issues over leaving or reluctance, I might prescribe reading “The Pet”, “Hypergamy doesn’t care about your relational equity”, “War Brides”. Burn that image of that leopard at the top of “The Pet” story into your mind. Either that leopard or the hamster is going to bite most of you if you stay in almost any relationship.

    Honestly I would say that given the reality of how a relationship is probably going to play out, you are better to have dumped on a situation that might have turned out well “if this and that happens”. It’s like the Darrel Royal quote about the forward pass in football. “When you throw the football, three things can happen and only one them are good”. So you leave, you get left, you stay together and you are miserable and co-opted ( Very likely given the reality with most American women. If you doubt me, read the comments from “S” above. All that arrogance and attitude, that “super girl” attitude that even when being dumped, the hamster can turn it into a “victory” for her.) So the only marginally good one of those outcomes is you leaving. It is not great but it is the lesser of the three.

    You have a 50% chance of divorce. That divorce will leave you broken and financially hamstrung. The effects of it will last well into your older years. It can make the difference between you being old and homeless and you being able to define your terms. This game of life is real, man. That woman is the number 1 jeopardy that you will have threaten you in your life. She can and will put you in jail if you do not pay her that money. I have a feeling that about 10 years from now, you are going to start seeing a rash of suicides from 65 year old men that feel they have no other option, most of them divorced men. They are going to face compromised living situations, rents that are being their ability to pay, no retirement money, prospects of no jobs because of age discrimination, health issues that they will not have the money to address, and death will seem like the easiest option.

    The only way for you to avoid this is to never marry. You can try to apply alphas rules and implement game to make an LTR or marriage work, but I think the odds are ultimately against you. The only safe, 100% way to avoid the financial trauma of divorce is to keep moving, keep leaving, accept this reality, make this the first filter in your decisions. Your passions for women are going to abate over time. If you learn to be alone and live alone eventually you are not lonely, you will be free.

    Bonecracker makes the statement that a male without a woman has a surplus of labor and that he only requires 20% of the labor he is possible of providing to keep himself alive. If you learn game and keep those skills fresh and do not marry, then when you are older, 50, you will be free in a way that few other men will be. You can save that 80% and you will need it, I promise you.

    Hypergamy doesn’t care if you will be old and homeless.
    Hyergamy doesn’t care if you have to kill yourself because you have no other option.

    Nobody cares about you but you. Nobody and certainly not any woman. You have to always remember Briffaults’s Law and corallaries:

    “The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place.” — Robert Briffault, The Mothers, I, 191

    Corollaries:
    1 – Past benefit provided by the male does not provide for continued or future association. (Even when you are old and have done the right thing for your whole life. See the increase in “grey divorces”)

    2 – Any agreement where the male provides a current benefit in return for a promise of future association is null and void as soon as the male has provided the benefit (see corollary 1)

    3 – A promise of future benefit has limited influence on current/future association, with the influence inversely proportionate to the length of time until the benefit will be given and directly proportionate to the degree to which the female trusts the male (which is not bloody likely).

    You would not invest in any financial investment that had a 50% chance of losing. Never marry. Never marry. Listen to a 57 year old man. Never marry. Let me say it one more time. Never marry. That woman is a parasite and she and her children will suck you dry and then throw you away when they can’t get anymore from you.

    If you spin plates, avoid oneitis, keep a soft harem, avoid entering into any sort of LTR then your odds of not eating a gun when you are 60 go down, way down. If you save that 80% of your surplus labor then when you are 50 you can walk away into some foreign country and have as much such sex and live the last years of your life in comfort.

    We like to snort and chuckle about the woman’s “wall”. You have one also. It is a soft wall at 45 and hard wall at 50. And your wall is more than just SMV, it’s also Life Market Value. You will learn how your sexual market value ties into your life options. I read an interview with Jack Nicholson the other day, he’s 72. He said “Once I was irresistible to women. That’s gone now. It’s sad.” Everyone, no matter how alpha will turn into the omega. And that status will compromise your ability to get and keep a job. Unemployment is 28% in people over 50.

    You have to prepare for that eventuality. The only way to 100% guarantee that you have control over what will happen to you, to the money you save, to any equity you build up in real estate, to any social capital you built during your life, to any retirement funds you might receive, is for you not to marry.

    And to not marry, you have to learn to leave. Leave sooner rather than later. But leave.

    Yeah, if I knew then what I know now.

  • BlackCat

    Excellent, and very sobering comment, Mark. It should be its own post.

    To further drive home the point, I want to examine in detail a single statement by “S” above:

    If she has to “nag” then she’s not happy..she should find someone who’s behaviour she doesn’t feel the need to modify.

    Take a long, hard look at this. A really long, hard look.

    If she has to “nag”
    (How many women in marriages/LTRs do you know that do not nag/nitpick in some way?)

    then she’s not happy
    (She’s not haaaaaaaapy…)

    ..she should find someone who’s behaviour she doesn’t feel the need to modify.
    (Commitment? Accepting a partner like he is? Working to please a partner? Screw that – divorce/breakup/cheating here I come. Wait just a bit, my Perfect Prince Charming, I’ll be right with you~)

    You have been warned.

    Caveat Emptor

  • walawala

    Good points. I gamed and then went out with a girl for 10 months. Her nagging and general bitchiness became too much, so I dumped her in December. Since then, we’ve been hanging out. I game her. No banging. I bang other chicks. But she is wayyyyyyyyyyyy more responsive, helpful, proactive than when we went out. Any pangs of guilt or doubt about breaking up have ended. Once in a while I think….hmmmmm, we should get together again. But the reality is, this is a much better situation.

    Spin plates, be discrete.

  • gregg

    Monogamy serves the feminine? Another pretty lie. Monogamy serves masculine. Monogamy is one of most effective cures for female hypergamy. Just look as some consequences of “spinning plates” mentality. You are drowning in an abundance of pussy but at the same time – you are stealing all those 6s and 7s in your harem from other men. There are those “orbiters”, those men that would like a relationship with 6s or 7s and she might have nodded to that, if you were taken by higher quality women. Of course it does not happen now. Now she is fucking with you together with another 3 or 4 women and she might be cut off from the relationship market for less quality guys for 5 or 10 of her best years. Her ego is so high that average or even above average men are not able to reach it. She rationalizes that you had not dumped her ´cos she was “under” you but for other mysterious reason and she were able to “catch” you. Monogamy equals “protection” and those with slavish mentality – higher hormonal level, romantic illusions and protective instincts are not women – but ordinary men.

    This 6/7 you are fucking thinks now that she is able to catch a man like you, so her equals or even higher quality men are nooo good for her. These guys are left with blue balls or banging bottom pussy / strippers, low quality bar chicks (thinking how pua they are), but they have been effectively stripped of quality pussy by their attractive fellow. Sex with high quality guy impacts such women for years. She might realize her true SMW well past 30 when she is fucked up in head even for less quality guys. Monogamy improves the quality of women (for LTR) for all men – they are not so used by others. I did have some virgins and I might tell that the strenght of the bond and the devotion of such women is truly incomparable with those that have had 6, 7 or more guys before you.

    And “Dumping woman” as DHV? While correct this should not be the position of mature man.

  • siquaeris

    A woman who expresses problems is fine. In fact, most men prefer this to the mindreading that some women expect from them. Unfortunately, many women express their problems by nagging. It’s an indirect method of expression at best, a way to control their partner at worst.

    Many women will nag because it’s easier for them than saying what’s really on their mind. However, in their own minds, they actually believe that the nagging is communication. After a while, they feel like they’ve done everything they could to communicate but nothing has changed. This is true even if the man gives in to every single nag, because the woman is not telling him what the real story is, so the man is not able to address the real issues directly.

    Then the woman gets unhaaapy. She feels like she has ‘worked’ so hard to make the relationship work. I suppose that’s somewhat true, just as beating a dead horse must feel like a lot work.

    In the end, the woman doesn’t even have to do any self reflection. She has plenty of support from society and her girlfriends to remind her that she is always right and her man is always at fault.

  • S

    “Women that say this often push back the hardest while riding me a week later. I do not expect total submission – more that we both enjoy the journey (with me at the wheel).Women that say this often push back the hardest while riding me a week later. I do not expect total submission – more that we both enjoy the journey (with me at the wheel)…”

    Well that’s good for those women but I’m serious. Why would anyone want to hang around someone who does not want them?

    But I like what you said and understand your situation a bit better now.

    @ BlackCat,

    That analogy is actually quite laughable. You likening a relationship between a man and a woman to a “relationship” between a company and an employee? Two completely different dynamics.

    “If she has to “nag”
    (How many women in marriages/LTRs do you know that do not nag/nitpick in some way?)
    then she’s not happy
    (She’s not haaaaaaaapy…)
    ..she should find someone who’s behaviour she doesn’t feel the need to modify.
    (Commitment? Accepting a partner like he is? Working to please a partner? Screw that – divorce/breakup/cheating here I come. Wait just a bit, my Perfect Prince Charming, I’ll be right with you~)”…

    *shakes her head*

    That’s not what I meant at all.

  • S

    @ Mark Minster,

    I’m not really talking about marriages with my comments. I’m not talking about taking all of his money. What I am saying if a man doesn’t want a woman for whatever reason she should accept that and remove herself from the situation with dignity.

  • BlackCat

    S: Two completely different dynamics

    Not as much as you’d like to think. But you keep spinning that hamster wheel. It is quite educational.

  • S

    So what you are implying is that the man is the boss and the woman is the employee?

  • gregg

    @ Mark. It seems that divorced guys share the same mentality about marriage :)

    “The only safe, 100% way to avoid the financial trauma of divorce is to keep moving, keep leaving, accept this reality, make this the first filter in your decisions. Your passions for women are going to abate over time. If you learn to be alone and live alone eventually you are not lonely, you will be free.”

    This is my position in my late thirties. For a guy that loves women like myself it is not so easy as it seems, but I have simply witnessed too much to be able to marry. Ever. There is an old proverb “marriage is a curse for young man and a blessing for old one”. So maybe when you are past 50, financialy secure, you can risk this (prenup required) with some younger woman. I will see :)

  • siquaeris

    @S: “So what you are implying is that the man is the boss and the woman is the employee?”

    I wasn’t really following your discussion until I saw this. It is a great example of a straw man argument.

    The analogy to the workplace was using the boss and the employee, but the boss/worker relationship is not germane to the analogy… yet, you are trying to bring that in as if it were.

  • S

    No I am not, I was just asking a question for hope of further elaboration.

  • Robert

    @ gregg

    on the great beta-fodder famine of 2012

    What makes you think that the betas would have exclusive access to their bored 5/6 girl anyway, as the whole point of red pill is that hypergamy doesn’t care?

  • itsme

    Monogamy is one of most effective cures for female hypergamy

    no. hypergamy is like aids – there is no cure, only management.

  • itsme

    thumbs up to rollo for this post.

    and thumbs up to ‘s’ for her entertaining solipsistic female commentary.

    I have not been in this situation in reality, I am jut saying how I would react.

    because, as we all know, women do exactly what they say they’ll do.

  • S

    I did perhaps illustrate my views in a more exaggerated fashion than originally intended (for the laughs) but still: the one point that I am really trying to make is that (and I have stated this before) if a man for any reason decides that he no longer wants a woman..she should not hang around.

  • Kelly

    A womans power comes from her relationship to the mans energy flowing
    toward her and this is demonstrated by his awareness of her defined by
    his behavior.

    Ignoring her makes her feel unloved so separated from his protection
    which reduces her sense of her own power (security) similar to how a child feels powerful when in the presence of protective adults if the adults display
    affection leaving the child feeling valuable enough to be protected.

    A woman is trapped in the paradox of conflicting wants because the more
    she can dominate the man the more she feels she will insure her protection
    by keeping him so feels secure on the one hand but the less she believes he is able to protect her because she is able to dominate him so than feels
    insecure. She is trapped between two fears that create to opposing wants.

    It is the exact same dynamic played out between a more powerful adult and
    the child. You must love without spoiling the child and the same is true
    for a woman.

    Tough love (fatherly) but without being condescending (knowing she is
    child like but not treating her as a child) is the way to gain balance.

    You must see the truth of what a woman is without revealing it to her.

    Loving a woman is a study in the principles of the Tao of Power

  • pliw

    “I have not been in this situation in reality, I am jut saying how I would react”

    oh ok

  • S

    Well, I do think that I am the best predictor of how I myself would act in a hypothetical situation.

  • Special K

    Only skimmed the comments, but holy cow guys. Why the fuck do you care so much how S would react to being dumped. You NEXT a girl, and she never talks to you again? That’s rare, but when it happens it’s a fucking WIN.

    More on topic, I’d like to expound on something Feral1404 said. ” Changing a woman even a little bit is way harder than “next,” but in my opinion it’s far more worth it”

    I’d argue that telling what can and cannot be changed about a girl, and knowing how to change the parts you want is the single biggest predictor of a man’s chances in an LTR or marriage.

    NEXTing a girl shouldn’t be a man’s default reaction to relationship issues. If it is, he’ll never learn how to calibrate his awareness or sharpen his “changing girls” skill.

    That’s not to say a guy shouldn’t NEXT a girl, because he should. But while starved beta’s err too much on the side of “trying to make it work” unaware that the problems are solvable only by a ‘next’ Too many red-pill guys stray to the opposite end of the spectrum. They ‘next’ a girl who could have been changed, and miss out on what could have been a much better relationship dynamic. Overall this is (obviously) far less harmful, but it’s still not ideal.

    As for Hit Hard and the OP… Sounds like the right call. Especially that bit about how all her friends have miserable husbands. How the boyfriends/husbands feel is a pretty good predictor of what she expects from you. If they’re all unhappy, you need to either change her expectations, or get the hell out.

  • Special K

    Well, I do think that I am the best predictor of how I myself would act in a hypothetical situation.

    Hithard already addressed this with his comment “Women that say this often push back the hardest while riding me a week later.

    People (men and women alike) are notoriously poor about predicting their future actions when egos are on the line. Statistically speaking, it’s possible although highly unlikely that you’re predicting your future behavior accurately.

  • D-Man

    Wow Mark. Thank you.

    I’m beginning to kind of enjoy the indignation people show when they pry enough find out I don’t think I ever want to get married. They all just assume that’s what every decent guy should want. I don’t often feel like going into a rant with them about it, but the short answer has something to do with THIS SEEMS TO BE HOW WOMEN PREFER ME.

    Raised mostly by my mother, brain given a thorough washing by lib-fem society… by the time I reached my mid-20s, I believed a man should be egalitarian, considerate, and compromising in relationships, and he should treat his woman like a queen. This quickly translated into jumping how-high to shit tests and kowtowing to nagging, all of which I pretty much took without protest. I accepted my position. I was so faithful, I wouldn’t even check out other women when I was out alone.

    And you know what? I kept getting NEXTed, in various ways.

    I can see you’ve all got your surprise faces on.

    So I finally said FUCK IT, NO MORE. And I’ve never done better.

    Took me so long to figure out, but it’s very simple. Based on my experience of HOW THEY TREAT ME, when I try to do and be what society says I should – what women say they want – they INEVITABLY end up loathing me and finding a way to rid themselves of me.

    When I do ONLY what I want, EXACTLY when I feel like it? They can’t seem to get enough of me. I do my best to hang on to the shreds of my past self, and show decency and kindness where it won’t hurt me. But if slighted, I will NEXT without hesitation and ignore them completely, and I think they sense that.

    I don’t come right out and tell them that I have no ambition of graduating to boyfriend, let alone fiance…. or that I might bang someone else tomorrow…. or that I didn’t answer their call or text because when I saw their name I felt annoyed. But choosing to bring any of that up would just be stupid. First of all it would be unkind because it would hurt them. Then it’s just asking for an emotional, drawn-out, argumentative attempt to guilt-trip me. No thanks.

    Some of them will figure out, from the way I act, not to push for anything more, and eventually get involved with some other guy who gives them more attention. Others might be banging other guys right now. Surprisingly, that doesn’t really bother me, as long as they don’t shove it in my face.

    One day, should a lady decide to push “the talk about where we’re going”, will I be seen as the bad guy? Probably, but wouldn’t that be bullshit? I have promised nothing. She came after me. We hung out, enjoyed each others company. It’s the 21st century and she’s a woman who wanted to get laid, so I gave her that.

    BUT she’ll choose to see me that way to protect her ego. Because beneath her consciousness, she draws self esteem from her ability to bend men to her will. Which I will not abide, and I don’t feel the least bit bad about that.

    Once you’ve tried so hard to be the “good guy” and experienced firsthand how he gets treated, you’re not so afraid of what might happen to the “bad guy”.

  • gregg

    @ robert

    Hypergamy DO care. About shame, security, money, many things. What makes me think this way? Life. I am from Slovak Republic. Small country in central europe. We have been living this “demokracy” from 1989 but before that date we were living in communism (dictature). While having many flaws, in this society monogamy, marriage and family were heavily subsidized by state and protected by shame, traditions, etc. Women used to be married pretty soon, usually till 21 or 22. Many of PRETTY women, including my mom and women from my family, were virgins till marriage. Woman that was single after 23/4 was heavily shamed by society and pushed to find a man to “take care of her”. We had those baby booms back then, etc.

    Beta men were practically given pretty wives – many times virgins, back then. High quality men were taken from the market pretty soon, usually by the highest quality women. Cheating was not so easy – you risked a lot in those times. Divorces were extremely rare. Marriages were stable. So this was the society in which monogay was protected, subsidizes and advertized by politics, state, people in general. Women that cheated or divorced were strongly shamed by other people. Protected monogamy cutts off the head of hypergamy veeeeery quicky. Of course you pay a prize for that – limited freedom.

  • hithard

    @ S
    “Well that’s good for those women but I’m serious. Why would anyone want to hang around someone who does not want them?”

    That’s a valid enough question for me to give an answer on before I go. I do feel it is a topic that can benefit us all.

    For women it all depends on how strong the emotional connection is to a man and if you are filling her needs.
    Let’s focus on the emotional connection though as it has the strongest pull factor, and hopefully I can give you some form of idea through a post. Which is difficult when challenging a held belief

    Now for arguments sake let’s say you and I (hey try to visualize I am your perfect match) S go through the usual process and begin a relationship.

    Things start off strongly. There is both a physical and emotional attraction, but more than that… When we are together there is an element of excitement that sets your heart fluttering. The feeling that I overwhelm your senses, where you feel safe to begin investing in me, both emotionally and physically. With each passing day you feel a stronger and stronger connection that warms your core. Where mind body and soul feel as though they are full of the pure essence of being. You are happy to be led in this passionate embrace. Your needs are satisfied, your spirit fulfilled. YOU ARE HAPPY!!

    “Wait, what you’re breaking up with me?”

    “What do you mean you want to break it off, no I don’t understand?”

    “How is this for the better?”

    And this is where the residual emotional attachment comes into play.
    Developing an emotional attachment with a woman is a bit like hooking someone on drugs when it’s done right. It is very hard to maintain past a certain timeframe though in a relationship. And there can be numerous other mishaps, with this post only touching the surface.

    Now first thought is usually ‘a$$hole’ and anger.
    But that passes as the innate need for contact develops. The feeling of just being close to that person even if only briefly, gives them that fix that they crave.

    Now I can drip feed your emotional needs to position you to where I want you to be. If I have anchored the emotions right, then you will feel as if no one can love you like I do. Or no one touches you or makes love to you with the passion that I do. Each stage through the escalation I have to ensure I am leading, directing and in touch with where I want to be. The end result I am looking for is your emotions screaming out to be fed in my absence. The reason you run back and fuck me is because it feels as if my intimacy is feeding your soul. The reason you try to please me is to grasp at the high I can deliver

    You’re probably thinking:

    “I’m not that stupid”

    But most people can think back to moments in their life where the heart ruled the head. Hypotheticals are always a mother foucker. The most I can say is this is a high percentage occurrence.
    Guys do this as well and God knows there are forum boards full of guys wanting to run back and get stomped on again. Guys tend to get hooked from their feelings being taken high, low, high, low etc over time. Women more from an intense high to a low over a shorter time frame.

    Just reading something about a situation can be very hard to identify with because it reads like a no brainer. But if a lot of people wrote down the dumb things they do in love they would simply cringe and think;

    ‘Was I really that stupid?’

    So bear that in mind when challenged with what may feel is an inconceivable notion. Emotions can blind you.

    And you are right – why would a sensible person stay. The saving grace for a fool in love is time. Time to wake from his/her stupor.And generally people eventually wake up

    I suppose I treat relationships a bit like bubble gum from time to time. I mean it’s great when it has flavour but over time it gets bland and tasteless and I have enough of it and throw it away. The last thing I want to do is go find it and pop it back in my mouth again for another go.

    The above was just an over the top example to try and answer the question. Not something you should try and do, some kind of relationship advice, or something I go out of my way to do. Generally you only need a bare minimum of emotional attachment and play it from there. Each step can be expanded on massively and you will have to forgive my syntax, rambling and bad grammar.

    Big thankyou to Rollo who has been a great mentor over the years. Someone who has my greatest respect.

    Just learnt of the passing of Jophil, a great loss to the community and one that has saved many a broken man. I regret not letting him know the positive influence he had on my life.

    Later all and best wishes

  • Robert

    @ gregg

    I miss protected monogamy too. But it is gone and dead in the West, and will not come back until women want it to. In the meantime, there is MGTOW and/or Game. What passes for marriage now is a joke, and without women shaming and excluding divorced women, as you mention, it really cannot be recommended to any man.

  • S

    Thanks for your post hithard…I understand your logic, very well written.

  • derthal

    “Sirach 33:19 Never, as long as you live, give anyone power over you-whether son, wife, brother, or friend. Don’t give your property to anyone; you might change your mind and have to ask for it back.

    Sirach 33:20 As long as you have breath in your body, don’t let anyone lead your life for you.”

  • Linkage Is Good For You – Cypher’s Week | Society of Amateur Gentlemen

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  • Doc

    “Most guys are all too willing to compromise what seem, at the time, like small concessions to their women’s demands in exchange for keeping the peace and the legs open.”

    So very true – and so VERY destructive… The best thing a man can do is kick a woman to the curb if she isn’t providing benefit on a daily basis – or at least whenever he deigns to spend time with her. I learned long ago, if you aren’t willing to kick her to the curb, it’s over and you are on the long slide to being a beta-chump…

    There are plenty of women, and an unending supply of younger, tighter, nicer ones waiting for your attention. Why deny them the privilege of servicing you?

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