Since 50 Shades of Grey is essentially the same plot formula as Twilight, feel free to insert the relevant protagonists’ names for Bella and Edward here.
I’ve had a lot of PMs asking me for some input regarding the runaway popularity of the B-Grade fan porn that is 50 Shade of Grey. Vox had a brief spot about it in relation to how men can’t win for losing in girl-world. Aunt Giggles had an interesting run down of its popularity, but predictably eels her way around the operative point of how semi-violent romance porn affirms the uglier truths of Game and hypergamy – not to mention avoiding the sticky aspect of ‘committed’ women fantasizing about it.
I honestly haven’t given the book too much headspace since it only reaffirms what the manosphere has been professing for over a decade now: in spite of all protestations of the opposite, women get off on dominance. Big shock, I know. It’s ironic that The Chateau should need to cite psych study upon psych study, ad infinitum for 6 years to reinforce a dynamic that women will now gleefully admit to only after a cheap, fanfiction sub-porn hack calls them blushingly out to the carpet on it.
If this book represents any significant turning point it will be its role in provably, viscerally, forcing women to acknowledge their own bullshit. I can hardly wait for the girl-world collective mental twistings in the wind – the desperate whir of millions of rationalization hamsters grasping for a plausible deniability or a freshly minted social convention (male shaming for bringing women to men’s porn mentality) that will excuse them from the guilt of an inconvenient truth. Perhaps the NAWALT trope, that one’s always the Swiss army knife for the feminine cause. Really anything that will put the Hypergamy Genie back in the bottle and keep the questioning Betas from getting too curious about feminine nature will do.
In the Bitter Taste of the Red Pill comments, esteemed colleague Dalrock had a timely and profound post that fits this porn-dominance formula perfectly:
These women don’t just want to build a better beta, they want to tame the alpha. In fact, I think the former is just another way they are trying to approach the latter. They want to take an inherrently unsafe activity and make it safe. They want to submit to a man without having to submit; they want a man who can tame their feral self. They want him to trip their danger signals. Even better if he is a stranger from a strange land.
They wan’t this all to happen without giving up their freedom; they want to play this out in the context of serial monogamy, so they can feel loved while also claiming their promiscuity is moral. They want to lose controll to a string of strangers who have all of the hallmarks of very dangerous men, and they want a promise that this will always end well.
They want to know that this will be safe, without it losing the excitement of it feeling unsafe. They are telling men to build a sort of serial monogamy amusement park where they can ride the roller coaster and experience the fear of falling or crashing, while knowing that just behind the scenes grown ups are actually in charge and are responsible for them safely feeling unsafe.
One more thing. As I mentioned above they don’t want to be hemmed in. So instead of building an actuall amusement park, they want roller coasters to spring up randomly in the same exact circumstances where the real danger they mimik would appear. They want to be driving their car on the freeway one instant, and the next experience the fear of careening out of controll the next. They want to impulsively jump off the edge of the Grand Canyon and have a parachute appear and deploy at the last minute. And all they ask is your guarantee that all of this will be safe.
Behold, the female porn dynamic perfected. Danger without danger, bad boy with a heart of gold, a guy who wont cheat, but could cheat,..
April 16th, 2012 at 10:53 am
However, if it goes against her will,
What she says her will is and what her body and subconscious are telling her her will is are two polar opposites. In short, no, she does not know her own will.
April 16th, 2012 at 10:53 am
The natural order doesnt need to be enforced. The unnatural does.
April 16th, 2012 at 10:55 am
Flahute – “Ted, please stop worrying about being fair. Who told you life is (or should be) fair? Equalists, socialists? Brainwash, hogwash.”
Again, if everyone thinks and acts this way, life would be chaos. Every man for himself only works in small tribal societies where might actually makes right. In the Western world, what is LEGAL makes right, and the bottom line is the law is NOT on men’s side. How exactly do you propose a change of society not backed by the force of law? Of course life isn’t fair, and equality is an illusion. But, the law clearly does not recognize the “man’s place as leader” so the only way to actually enforce it is to find a woman WILLING to allow it. I don’t think there are too many women waiting in line to willingly give up their autonomy and agency.
April 16th, 2012 at 10:57 am
You don’t talk about it with her, Ted. You simply become the leader and see how she reacts to it. You are not becoming her drill instructor. You are becoming the head of your house. That doesn’t mean you lay down orders. You stand firm (and fair, since that seems to be your way). These are two different things. That’s not to say that you will never give out orders, but that should be a last resort if that is how you choose to run your home.
April 16th, 2012 at 10:57 am
Ted, if you ask her “may I be your leader?” then you’re asking for permission – asking for approval – she’s your leader. It might look like a conundrum but the key is to understand: she’s not getting the logical sense of your question, but the emotional content of it. Her response will be towards your emotional question, you asking her to follow her, she’s going to respond “NO”
So instead of asking, do it. Try both approaches if this crap disturbs you. First be submissive and see how she responds. Then be more dominant and see how she responds.
Make your own mind.
April 16th, 2012 at 11:00 am
“Ted, brother, it most emphatically is not her job. It is your responsibility. ”
The law says otherwise. Show me were I am legally bound to take on this task, and I’ll be all over it. And the real rub is: she may even allow me to take that responsibility, but if I fail and/or go against her wishes, she has plenty of legal ways to put and end to it and fast. Most of them wouldn’t end favorably for me.
This isn’t about whether or not I believe it is natural for the man to lead or not, it is completely about what is legally enforceable. We can talk all we want about how things SHOULD be, but there is no way to actually MAKE things this way. NO woman has any reason to tolerate anything she doesn’t want to, and she has plenty of legal tools at her disposal to get her will enforced. Even men that have the “perfect” relationship balance and are the “king of their castle” are only so because their GF/Wife allows it, regardless of what those men think. Because the second she finds a lawyer, your reign as king is over.
April 16th, 2012 at 11:01 am
Ted,
BTW, if you walk with a verbal, or non verbal attitude of “I make the rules here and if you’re going to be around me, it’s under my rules”, pussy doesnt run away from you scared, it doesnt go from the hills… instead it floods you, it comes running towards you, from the hills and beyond.
Communication, for girls, is not a way to express what they really want and are, it’s not about honesty. Communication, for girls, is a way to get what they want. It’s a poker hand. You cant never take what a woman says at face value. You have to read what they “mean”, in other words, what they expect to get from it. So dont pay attention to the words, pay attention to what they respond to.
April 16th, 2012 at 11:03 am
*it doesnt run to the hills… it comes running from the hills
April 16th, 2012 at 11:05 am
Are you in danger of a civil union here Ted? You keep talking law and I thought she was your GF?
Also, if she is happy being your “first mate” why would she bring legal recourse? She is more likely to be unhappy because you let her be the “captain” and you become the “first mate”. The whole Eat. Pray, Love thing. How many men that this happened to do you think were dominate in their relationships?
April 16th, 2012 at 11:12 am
“These are two different things. That’s not to say that you will never give out orders, but that should be a last resort if that is how you choose to run your home.”
And that may be my real issue. I don’t “lead” in a passive manner. At work when I am in charge of a project, I push things to go the way I see it, and don’t leave much up to chance. Surely I let people do their jobs as best they see fit, as long as it doesn’t go against the plan. I also hate to micromanage, so I prefer people that can simply take a direction and go with it rather than someone that needs to be led continually. In fact, I purposely select team members looking for independent people. When I have to get involved at a micro level, it usually doesn’t go well for the person involved. I like project management because at that point I usually just ask for another person to replace the ‘trouble’ member. I don’t negotiate. I give instructions and expect them to be followed.
Of course none of this works well in a relationship, especially one where it is expected to be some sort of ‘equal’ split. I can work WITH someone just fine with little to no friction, but it is a totally different story if I have to lead them. My issue is, if I am expected to lead and accept all the responsibility, then I want everything done my way.
I never claimed to be a great leader. I get shit done, but it isn’t because of my great leadership as much as my stubborn bullheaded determination to get shit done MY way. This is why I do project management and will never be a Team manager. Can I be a great manager? Probably, but the amount of actual personal skills required to keep people “happy” is just more than I can manage. I really don’t care about people’s happiness enough to be successful at it.
And this leaves me in a bad position to be a “leader” at home. My concept of leading isn’t people friendly in the least. If we go with the Captain and First Officer model, I wouldn’t never be Pickard (sorry if I spelled that wrong, not really a Trek fan) because he is far too diplomatic a leader. I would be more like a pirate captain, may way or the plank. At work I can do this because the people I manage don’t have a choice if they want to get paid. It doesn’t fly so well at home. :P
April 16th, 2012 at 11:14 am
I hear you, Ted.
All I can say is this: It’s submission, not subjugation. She must agree to be ruled. She must submit voluntarily. I take that responsibility on my shoulders, but if she tries to take it back, it’s an untenable power struggle.
If I fail or she doesn’t like it, she surely can take matters into her own hands. And if she does decide to do so, she’s on her own. I know about all the horror stories of imputed income, wage slavery, punitive alimony, child support abuse, etc. But she’ll be on her own. She won’t want that. obviously. If she does want that, then everyone — including her — will have to live with the consequences of it.
April 16th, 2012 at 11:18 am
If you decide to lead you are not going to be able to micromanage. That is not being a rock. It’s a bulldozer. Try some things out and see how they work.
FYI: Pickard makes women tingle HARD.
April 16th, 2012 at 11:27 am
We live together and have for several years. I found my way to the ‘sphere about 8 months into our relationship, give or take a few. We both have children living with us. We aren’t married, but obviously we are entangled all the same.
And that is the catch 22 I find myself in mentally. I KNOW she won’t be happy as the captain, my first marriage and divorce proved that to me. But, I also can’t really force her to follow my lead either. And before we get too far down this rabbit whole, I’m not implying I am currently having any real issues in my relationship. Things are going well, but I was married for 12 years and for a good bit of the time things were going well there too. I’m trying to get a grip on exactly what I should be doing to ensure that things don’t end up where they were, and I feel pretty good about what I know so far.
So what I have now is a young relationship that so far is going well. We haven’t had any real power struggles, but I often get the sense that there are some subtle ones going on behind the scenes, and it bothers me that I can’t tell for sure. My SO is not a ball busting bitch, but the honest truth is she can be as stubborn as a mule, and she has stated more than once that she feels an “equal” relationship is what she wants. I tried that route in my marriage, but I feel like I went too far towards the beta side then and perhaps something close to equal could work if I kept the right frame of mind. But I have NO idea how to “lead” and at the same time be considerate of her wishes. I really don’t run things that way. I’m more dictator and less democracy.
April 16th, 2012 at 11:34 am
That’s about how I see it…
I wish I’d found the ‘sphere before I started this relationship. I would have done things VERY differently. Not saying things are bad, but I would have approached the relationship differently, and would have been up front about some of my expectations. I would have made it clear that I intend to do things my way, and if she wasn’t willing to follow that then we had no future. Hell, when we got together I still wasn’t thinking about making sure I got anything I wanted at all, let alone clearly defined roles in the relationship. So now I have to try and put thing right while being involved. It’s almost like renegotiating the deal, and I don’t feel like I have the stronger ground to stand on.
I know you found yourself in a bad spot as well, and you’ve managed to turn it around. I’m not in a bad spot yet, but I want to do my best to steer clear of that possibility at all costs. If I was single and looking, this would be simply a matter of laying it out up front and dealing with the fact that most women would not like the deal offered and leave. My option now is making the best of what I have (which arguably is pretty good, so I’m not complaining) and I don’t see any clear and easy path.
The red pill goes down much easier when you are single.
April 16th, 2012 at 11:34 am
Ted,
Honestly, you are just flat out confused about what it means to be a leader in a relationship. This is clear because you want to keep equating it with being an operational manager/micromanager in the workplace, and the two concepts are very different.
I am genuinely curious what your goals are now. You’ve been around these parts long enough for various thoughts/ideas to coalesce, but you seem to still be fighting some inner battle especially as it relates to the concept of male leadership. As always, Yohami is spot on, so go reread his comments and simply ponder them.
At the end of the day,make up your mind, and simply go with what you think fits your personality and ethical structure. Just my opinion, but eventually you have to resolve these questions. I’ve been reading your comments for months and it always seems like the same internal debate.
April 16th, 2012 at 11:47 am
Great stuff as always Yohami.
BTW, if you walk with a verbal, or non verbal attitude of “I make the rules here and if you’re going to be around me, it’s under my rules”, pussy doesnt run away from you scared, it doesnt go from the hills… instead it floods you, it comes running towards you, from the hills and beyond.
Saturday night, my GF and I watched In Time with Justin Timberlake. I actually thought it was a really good movie, especially in terms of being an allegory indictng our modern winner take all style capitalism. Anyways, we got into a discussion and I started pushing hard on her to really think about what it REALLY means to “earn” money especially in the context of a CEO who might make $50 million. Long story short, you got a bit emotional and nasty…granted it was 2:30 AM and she was tired.
Anyways, I stated in no uncertain terms that it simply was unacceptable
to get emotional over an intellectual discussion, and she went to bed and I did NOT kiss her goodnight as I usually do as you do NOT reward bad behavior.
Yesterday, she approached me and apologized for being a bitch. I accepted her apology but reiterated getting emotional over a discussion was unacceptable. Part of being with the right woman though is being with someone who doesn’t push back and keep escalating the conflict.
In my view, part of being a leader simply is setting the right frame, and being firm about what is acceptable and not acceptable.
April 16th, 2012 at 11:49 am
Here we go. Now it makes more sense to me. I understood what you were saying before but something was missing. It was this But, I also can’t really force her to follow my lead either.
No one wants you to force her to do anything, least of all her. A woman wants to follow a dominate man. Sure, there will be times that you make a decision that goes against what she wants. She may not want that one particular thing to happen but she will respect the “captain”. She will be happy with the overall situation.
Leading with consideration for her feelings means you talk things out. You discuss decisions. Take her input into consideration and then you make the final decision. It doesn’t even have to be obvious that you made the final decision. If she is easy going chances are you will mostly be on the same page anyway.
It means in other decisions you just say “Hey, we are going to go do X. Go get ready!” As in hey, I’m taking you out tonight. Go put on that great black dress. You say it nicely and in a fun way.
She’s burnt out and stuff needs to get done around the house. You say “Leave it. Go do X instead and relax.” It will hopefully very rarely be bossy.
April 16th, 2012 at 11:50 am
MikeC – “This is clear because you want to keep equating it with being an operational manager/micromanager in the workplace, and the two concepts are very different.”
Nice to see you out and about. ;)
Yep, this is indeed my sticking point. I had no model to follow growing up in regards to what a “leader” in a relationship should look like, and I am still trying to work it all out in my head. I am really trying to conceptualize what leading a relationship is about, because I don’t work well using “try and see” methods. I follow plans, procedures, designs, and flow charts. Most relationship stuff is very “touchy/feely” and I truly don’t have any idea how to approach it from a logical standpoint. I hate using shotgun methods (that is point, shoot, and see what you hit) and it seems that in terms of relationship happiness, hit or miss is a recipe for disaster.
And I know its been MONTHS that I’ve been stuck on this, and it’s really starting to piss me off. I can sit and talk theory all day, but what I’m lacking here is a solid plan to put the theory into practice. The only leading experience I have to pull from is not easily applied to a relationship, and I simply can’t tell if I’m doing a good job or not, because I have no real results to compare with. I mean, I suppose I can see that our relationship is good today, but that doesn’t mean I’m doing a good job, it could simply be that there has been little or no friction. There is a lot of speculation with this stuff, and I hate speculating.
I also can’t help but feel like most of this simply flies in the face of individual autonomy and agency. If it was implied that upon acceptance of the relationship my SO was to submit to my leadership, there would be no issue in my mind about my role. Marriage 1.0 had this default setup, and there was rarely any friction caused by it since it was the accepted norm. Not so today, in a time when “obey” is stricken from all but the most conservative bible-thumping wedding ceremonies. I don’t believe for one moment that any women entering into a relationship today has any concept of this, and if asked I bet 99% would say HELL NO to the idea right out of the gate.
So, in this environment, how does a man go about taking his “natural” role in a relationship? The women simply MUST submit to it willingly, or the entire thing comes crashing down like a house of cards.
April 16th, 2012 at 11:51 am
Yes!
April 16th, 2012 at 11:51 am
Ted, read Dave from Hawaii’s transition in his relationship here:
http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/08/14/relationship-game-week-a-readers-journey/
Was he being immoral in what amounted to his saving his marriage by his methods?
April 16th, 2012 at 11:58 am
All of this stuff is making the mistake that thaey are motivated to acheive some end goal: “owning the wolf”, or “building a better beta”. They are not goal-directed in that way: all they care about is how they are feeling *right now*.
April 16th, 2012 at 11:59 am
StingRay – “FYI: Pickard makes women tingle HARD.”
LOL. I am a fan of Kirk. He was an asshole for sure, but he did shit HIS way. Pickard strikes me as more politician than a warship captain. In fact, the entire Next Gen franchise seems very “Utopian” and socialist to me. Everyone wants to play nice, even when under attack.
April 16th, 2012 at 12:01 pm
“Want” is different than “goal oriented”. Obviously what they want is to feel good, where “good” can be many things, that are often contradictory.
April 16th, 2012 at 12:10 pm
“And incidental to that is a general loss of attraction for the guy if she gets power.”
It’s not incidental. Having gotten one, you want another one. Why have one manginia financing your life, when you can have two?
April 16th, 2012 at 12:28 pm
Rollo – “Was he being immoral in what amounted to his saving his marriage by his methods?”
No. Perhaps he was/is being a bit manipulative, but since he has his relationship’s best interests at heart I would say it is moral.
But my issue isn’t really a moral one, or at least morality is only a small part. *I* know I would approach it with the relationship’s best interests in mind, but what *I* think is best for the relationship and what she thinks is best might be very different.
In addition, most of those examples, while demonstrating a change from beta to alpha frame within the relationship, really doesn’t demonstrate any type of leadership to me at all. Not lying about looking at a hot woman isn’t being a leader, it’s simply being honest. Deciding where to go eat out can be a leadership decision, but only if I actually want to go somewhere specific, otherwise it’s just some random decision to make. Most of what I saw in the link you provided was just Dave sticking up for himself. If that is most of the trick, then I might simply be stressing over nothing at all. I’m seeing how I should be “leading” my relationship, but no one seems to be able to frame that into a simple set of instructions, so I can’t figure out what I have to do. If it is simply standing my ground and pushing back when shoved, then I’m spinning my wheels for nothing.
To me that isn’t leading, it’s making sure I’m not a doormat.
Am I really over thinking this? I can stand my ground indefinitely, but my goal is to not have to keep doing so until the day I die. I don’t want to spend the rest of my life dodging shit tests and re-establishing my “authority” over and over. That would be endlessly tiring.
April 16th, 2012 at 12:48 pm
Ok this isn’t at all my idea of “leading”, which is the root of the issue.
“Sure, there will be times that you make a decision that goes against what she wants. She may not want that one particular thing to happen but she will respect the “captain”. She will be happy with the overall situation.”
And I can live with this. I don’t expect to make her happy all the time, but the part *I* was missing is that she would still be happy over all even if some individual decisions don’t go her way. I have a hard time accepting this, and it seems to me that if this occurs too often she will start considering a new ship. As far as it goes, this doesn’t happen often and I actually can’t think of a single situation yet where I it has. Generally we come to some agreement, but again, that isn’t *MY* idea of leading. That is a compromise, which is perfectly acceptable, but not something I would do as a leader.
“It means in other decisions you just say “Hey, we are going to go do X. Go get ready!” As in hey, I’m taking you out tonight. Go put on that great black dress. You say it nicely and in a fun way.
She’s burnt out and stuff needs to get done around the house. You say “Leave it. Go do X instead and relax.” It will hopefully very rarely be bossy.”
And I already do this regularly, but it doesn’t strike me as leading. I think my idea of leading is simply all wrong in terms of relationships. I didn’t see this growing up, I saw my grandfather who ruled with an iron fist, but only with the things he cared about. To me, what you are describing strikes me as a pretty egalitarian setup. Or pretty close to one anyway. It puts the man in the position of tie-breaker to me. Not so much running the show, but the final say if/when a consensus can’t be made.
I’m also guessing that this varies from woman to woman, meaning that some prefer a more heavy-handed leadership approach while others prefer at least the image of an equal partnership? And, that being the case, for someone like me that doesn’t want to be heavy-handed, a woman that requires less actual leadership would be the best fit? and, the real work in all of this is trying differing amounts of “leadership” to see where the sweet spot is?
*sigh* Does anyone actually enjoy this stuff? I mean, working out interpersonal crap? My friendships are much easier. If I piss of a buddy, we just don’t talk for months. :p
April 16th, 2012 at 12:56 pm
“In my view, part of being a leader simply is setting the right frame, and being firm about what is acceptable and not acceptable.”
I’ve never considered setting boundaries and standing my ground a ‘leadership’ kinda thing. Responsible adults also shouldn’t make a habit of pushing boundaries either, but I certainly set boundaries for my children as part of my leadership role with them. I simply have a difficult time applying the same principles to a relationship with another adult. It appears I’m mistaken in believing that she should respect my boundaries simply because we are adults, which is why I keep asking where HER responsibility in this is. What I think you and others here are saying is I shouldn’t expect my SO to act like a rational adult despite the fact that legally she is labelled one.
April 16th, 2012 at 1:01 pm
is I shouldn’t expect my SO to act like a rational adult despite the fact that legally she is labelled one.
YES!!!!
April 16th, 2012 at 1:13 pm
I’m also guessing that this varies from woman to woman, meaning that some prefer a more heavy-handed leadership approach while others prefer at least the image of an equal partnership? And, that being the case, for someone like me that doesn’t want to be heavy-handed, a woman that requires less actual leadership would be the best fit? and, the real work in all of this is trying differing amounts of “leadership” to see where the sweet spot is?
Yes, yes, and yes.
I don’t think many women want to be lead by an iron fist. We do want responsibilities that align with our strengths and have the freedom to accomplish these under the man’s rule (as it were). I pretty much run our (the kids and mine) daily activities and the doings around the house. We homeschool and school is all me. But the final say in everything goes through my husband. He doesn’t micromanage, rather he checks in every once in a while to make sure there are no problems and to make sure we are on track. We rarely have disagreements about any of this and for a lot of the things with the kids I have the final say as I have far more information than he does. Therefore he defers to me. However, it is clear that this is conditional on my part. Any new, big decisions come up and I bring them to him with my opinion. Rarely do we have differing opinions yet he still has the final say. This is best for *us*. He doesn’t need to micromanage but if I run into a problem I know he is there for me to lean on.
I look at it this way, I am in charge of the house and the children right here and right now. His responsibility is the family; past, present and future.
April 16th, 2012 at 2:01 pm
Ted,
The simple fact that you are tenative about the law means that you are about 10x more likely to be a victim of it.
I really don’t get it. We aren’t even talking about sexual advances here, we are talking about putting yourself in a position of leadership. How exactly are you going to get arrested for taking on a leadership role?
I think you are WAAAAY to hung up on the idea this equalism bullshit and you bring up the law is merely an excuse to not move past it. I know, it has been drilled into ALL of our heads since we were little kids so it’s hard to see past it but if you want to avoid becoming a statistic you have to. This is all a giant shit test. Women don’t want you to believe that they want to be equal, they want you to see the BS for what it is. And when you do, you “pass”. It’s a test to weed out the weak. That’s why they are so good at convincing you otherwise.
April 16th, 2012 at 2:10 pm
OK, so it’s back to dealing with irrational people, which is where my bone of contention is. I’m expected to handle my own emotional crap and in the very least contain hers. What does she do in return?
Or, how about we go about it this way. If she were single and on her own, how would she deal with her emotional shit? Because I don’t understand how me being in the picture removes her responsibility to act like a rational adult. I kinda expect my mate to come to the table as pretty much a self-sufficient rational adult. I’m not expecting her to keep me “in check” somto speak, so why is it expected that I should have to do so for her? What the hell would she do without me?
See, to me if I’m truly expected to handle her stuff and mine, then she should be pulling more of something else off my plate. This seems a lot like “let’s have an equal relationship as long as we agree, and when we don’t I will act like a brat until I get my way” which is bullshit. You can’t have it both ways: responsible adult when it suits you, or spoiled brat when it doesn’t.
April 16th, 2012 at 2:14 pm
Ahhhh OK. To me, what you just described is *my* idea of an egalitarian relationship. You each do what you are best at and split the rest. The only point I see that indicates a leadership role is your husband is the “tie breaker” if you are split in a decision.
That is a far cry to me from a more formalized leadership role, which probably works for some, but I would guess not many.
April 16th, 2012 at 2:16 pm
If she were single and on her own, how would she deal with her emotional shit?
She would buy a cat.
See, to me if I’m truly expected to handle her stuff and mine, then she should be pulling more of something else off my plate.
Absolutely she should. With out a single doubt. This is why women stayed home and men worked. The woman would take care of the home and the man would provide it. She should be taking care of you. They way women are good at. We excel at the details hence the house and the children being our domain.
April 16th, 2012 at 2:16 pm
Ted,
“If she were single and on her own, how would she deal with her emotional shit?”
She would have girlfriends + beta orbiters to dump her emotional garbage into.
“I don’t understand how me being in the picture removes her responsibility to act like a rational adult.”
When has she behaved like a rational adult?
“This seems a lot like “let’s have an equal relationship as long as we agree, and when we don’t I will act like a brat until I get my way””
Yes, you’re describing a woman and her defacto set of rules. Now, are you going to accept them?
If you dont, then you stamp your foot and set the rules: you expect agency and responsibility from her? her behaving like an adult? that’s not what she’s been doing, but you’re expecting her to? then she has to follow you, and respect you, and you’re leading her.
April 16th, 2012 at 2:17 pm
Rollo/everyone – thanks for the input. I know I’m a pain in the ass with this, but I’ve been agonizing over this particular point for months as MikeC pointed out. This thread has been more helpful than the last 6 months elsewhere. I don’t have all the answers I’m looking for, but at least I feel like you all are being honest with me without added bullshit to pretty it up.
April 16th, 2012 at 2:27 pm
Read this:
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/21/positive-masculinity-vs-equalism/
April 16th, 2012 at 2:28 pm
Yohami- well holy shit man. That made totally perfect sense. If I want to be in a relationship with a responsible adult, I have to make her BE one. For shit’s sake that is so simple, and yet massively complicated of you buy into the idea that she should already be one herself.
It shouldn’t be my responsibility to do so, but I guess my options are deal with bad attitude or step up. I can’t help but notice that this is at least a little demeaning though. We are all saying that a woman cannot be held responsible for her own emotions. I’m not saying that isn’t true, but it certainly would change a lot of shit legally if this were public ally accepted knowledge…
April 16th, 2012 at 2:33 pm
It wasn’t demeaning until feminist made it so. And the laws here in the States were pretty well on track with this as well until women coerced men into changing them.
April 16th, 2012 at 2:35 pm
Darn it. Didn’t close the html. Let me try again.
I can’t help but notice that this is at least a little demeaning though. We are all saying that a woman cannot be held responsible for her own emotions.
It wasn’t demeaning until feminist made it so. Also, the laws here in the States were pretty well on track with this as well until women coerced men into changing them.
April 16th, 2012 at 2:48 pm
So in short: I need to stop being worried about being a chauvinist and misogynist? And despite the fact that my SO may give lip service to the “equality” shtick she will not only accept my leadership but actually wants me to take it IN SPITE of what she says?
The entire setup is a giant shit test?…
I really hate interpersonal drama. At least with men you know where you stand. All this cloak and dagger shit just pisses me off. Is it really just too much to ask for adults to act responsibly and with a rational attitude?
Never mind. I know that answer already. It’s BS but I know damn well people don’t take responsibility for shit, and acting rationally is no fun, so why would anyone do it?
I was born about 80 years too late…
April 16th, 2012 at 2:51 pm
Yohami nailed it.
You have a flawed view of attraction, Ted.
Women are happiest when they are being assimilated into the world of a man they are attracted to. You are approaching this from the angle of “what does she want” which creates the opposite effect. This doesn’t mean that her desires go out the window, it just means that she cares more about what YOU care about when she is attracted to you, and the fact that you pull her into your world rather than catering to her desires amplifies this attraction.
Stop listening to women when they say that they want to be equal, because they absolutely do NOT want to be equal. Your woman is simply parroting the feminist script.
April 16th, 2012 at 2:56 pm
At least with men you know where you stand. All this cloak and dagger shit just pisses me off. Is it really just too much to ask for adults to act responsibly and with a rational attitude?
Ted, you’re forgetting, all of this is unconscious on the part of the women. Most women don’t have a clue about any of this. There is no giant secret conspiracy that they pull us into as children. We are just oblivious to it. Basically, it is like a shit test. We are unconscious to those as well.
Heh, we think we are acting rationally. Ever see the look on a woman’s face when you call her irrational? That why there is so much anger. To her, it is utterly rational. To the man, she is talking about oranges and he is talking about history. It’s why it is so important to take the time to teach us. No one else will do it for us anymore. They just assume it is already there. It’s not.
April 16th, 2012 at 2:58 pm
Very nicely said.
April 16th, 2012 at 3:01 pm
Ted, you’ve been pretty upfront so let me give you a personal example: In 2005 the company I work for asked if I wanted to relocate to Orlando. That day I essentially decided to uproot my family from Nevada and leave my friends, our families and everything we knew behind.
The day I decided this I sat Mrs. Tomassi down at our usual sushi place and said, “we’re moving to Florida in 4 months.” What do you suppose she said to that?
“What about my career here? What about my Mom and your Mom, Dad, Brother? What about my friends? We don’t know anyone there, we’d be starting over completely, don’t I have a say in any of this?”
What she said was “when are we leaving?” For as much frame control as I exercise even I was expecting some resistance and she could tell. Then she said “you’re my husband, I go where you go.”
Most guys in this scenario would’ve either simply passed up a once in a lifetime opportunity for fear of upsetting their full and ‘equal’ partner, or would’ve had to live with the resentment and reminding of every fault after having ‘forced’ their wife to comply.
I’m writing a post on this for you now, but for brevity understand, there is no such thing as egalitarian equality. Even for homosexuals, there is a dominant and submissive partner. It doesn’t make one an evil controller, nor the other a complacent doormat, it’s just that someone has to drive the car. Either you trust that person to drive or you take that control away from them.
Power abhors a vacuum, if you are unable or unwilling to be the control the frame, a woman’s innate need for security will compel her to control it for you. You can be the Dom or the Sub, just know that you’ll only be the Sub for as long as it takes her to find a Dom to drive the car.
April 16th, 2012 at 3:09 pm
LOL this is where we’ve been circling the wagons lately. We do both work, so I need to give more thought into how we break out responsibilities.
What would you think is an equal setup if both people work full-time jobs? Because this may be the sticking point. I feel like her idea of an equal relationship is to split all household chores evenly. that being said, I have to handle the finances if I hope to have anything paid on time. And, I feel like I take more than half of the relationship responsibility already, before this conversation. We both work the same amount of hours in a week, but I make more and carry more of the household finances myself. And no matter how I might try to explain the conversation we are having here, she will not see things from my perspective at all. In fact, I’m pretty damn sure she would be pissed off at the concept of me having to handle her emotional crap, and certainly wouldn’t take well to being told she doesn’t have agency. :P
I want to operate with full honestly and disclosure, but I don’t see how that can happen. And without that, how can shit be distributed evenly? It would be like my boss totally denying a third of my work load and then being pissed off I couldn’t get everything done.
I need some examples of normal, healthy relationships it seems. I can’t think of a single married couple I know that isn’t grappling with some of this stuff. And I haven’t told my male friends at all about the ‘sphere or the red pill, because I haven’t figured out how to make it all work for myself yet.
April 16th, 2012 at 3:34 pm
“You can be the Dom or the Sub, just know that you’ll only be the Sub for as long as it takes her to find a Dom to drive the car.”
No matter how confused and frustrated I may be with all this, I know the above statement is true. I’ve lived it and my divorce proved it to be true. My goal is to figure out exactly what it takes to be the driver, because I honestly don’t know how, and everything I see that I’m supposed to be doing flies completely in the face of “common wisdom”. And I realize that much of this is simply social programming I have to get past, but it isn’t like I can just head down to the local Man’s club for some moral support. Those guys are all complaining about their dismal marriages. :(
Again, thanks for the guidance.
April 16th, 2012 at 4:04 pm
“Stop listening to women when they say that they want to be equal, because they absolutely do NOT want to be equal. Your woman is simply parroting the feminist script.”
That sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen… At least according to the seemingly endless “equality” type classes I’ve endured as part of the corporate world for almost two decades.
It makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall. So I’m supposed to continue participating in “polite” society while knowing that all this equality stuff is BS, and I can never call women out on it without fear of legal repercussion? I have to treat my SO one way despite her saying she wants to be treated another, and I can never expect her to admit it?
I know I’m about to sound like a 4 year old throwing a tantrum, but seriously: how is any guy expected to successfully deal with this shit? It’s like living a lie every. single. day. What’s worse? I’ve already been living that same lie every day, I just didn’t know it until recently. Now that I know the truth, I want everyone to know so we can fix it, not continue living the lie. Living the lie is what causes me stress. It forces me to purposefully act in a manner that is not congruent with my thoughts, and I already feel like I do that just to deal with “people” in general. the idea of having to do the same with my SO means I have no place to just be myself. I have to keep up an act for her as well, since I can’t “let on” that I’m “leading” her or I’ll hurt her sensibilities. So I fake it at work, and now I may have to fake it at home.
I can see why some guys say fuck it and just don’t bother. This is almost as much work as my job, and in many ways its worse since I don’t care if I hurt someone’s feelings in the office.
April 16th, 2012 at 4:48 pm
You’re only living a lie when you make it a lie. If you feel like you’re playing a role or reading a script, you haven’t internalized Game yet.
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/11/21/kill-the-beta-2/
April 16th, 2012 at 6:02 pm
It makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall. So I’m supposed to continue participating in “polite” society while knowing that all this equality stuff is BS, and I can never call women out on it without fear of legal repercussion? I have to treat my SO one way despite her saying she wants to be treated another, and I can never expect her to admit it?
Yea, except for the legal repercussions part. Where is this coming from? You don’t call women out on it because they aren’t even aware of it most of the time and it only serves to make you look weak.
You have been drinking waaay too much of the feminist kool aid. There are real dangers of this in the workplace but that’s just another shit test to weed out the losers. Here’s an SNL skit that shows how it works-
Knock on wood, but never in my life have I felt the slightest hint of legal threat from a woman. And I have been with more than my share.
April 16th, 2012 at 6:07 pm
And this is why Rollo’s Blog is one of the best in the Manosphere; heck the whole internet. It has help me have a deeper understanding of the “philosophies” & “why” Game works that no other blog has come close to explaining. Keep up the good work RT. You are definitely an inspiration to your fellow man. *Claps*
April 16th, 2012 at 7:48 pm
Scrap the legal talk. My issue was that there is no way to force a woman to accept leadership, which is still true. StingRay implied that a woman will naturally want to follow, and if not I guess the answer is to move on to another that will. I already placed my bets so to speak, so I need to make the best of the hand I currently hold.
April 16th, 2012 at 7:55 pm
Ted,
“My issue was that there is no way to force a woman to accept leadership”
If it’s forced it’s not leadership. But moreso, women submit to it when its “natural”.
“a woman will naturally want to follow, and if not I guess the answer is to move on to another that will.”
Yes, but first become the version of you that is naturally dominant. Which is more about letting go your self constraints and learning to accept and assert yourself, than it is about forcing anything on anybody.
Force means resistance. Wrong setup.
April 16th, 2012 at 8:38 pm
Ted:
I can’t force my wife to stay with me. I can, however, force her to live with the consequences of her decisions.
If she stays with me, she is expected to accept the good and bad that goes with it.
If she leaves, I can force her to accept the consequences of that. If she leaves, her life will be very different from how it is now, and it won’t be all good.
April 16th, 2012 at 8:59 pm
Fold.
April 16th, 2012 at 10:47 pm
Trust me, you don’t want a relationship with a girl who doesn’t want you to take the lead.
April 17th, 2012 at 8:47 am
Rollo – “Fold.”
I’ve been in a much worse place, been through divorce, and survived. I can do this, I just need to get my head in the right place, which is to say get over feeling like I’m being manipulative, sneaky, and deceiving. If I don’t do it now, I may never get it done, and I’ll find myself in the same place with another woman. I have to get this shit together. Folding would just be throwing in the towel again.
GLC – That isn’t my problem so much as just trying to work out the specifics of it. As StingRay pointed out, there are varying degrees of leadership, and I’m just trying to work out how far I should push it. My SO has already demonstrated that she is willing to accept leadership from me, I’m just uncomfortable with the “job” (so to speak) and not sure how much leadership is actually necessary. I’ll get push back, but so far none of it has been more than token resistance and perhaps a little pouting.
My issue is that I’m in uncharted territory, and to be honest I’m very risk averse. I can do anything I set my mind to, it’s really just about setting my mind to it, which means going over the “plan” repeatedly until I feel like I’ve resolved any foreseeable problems. This particular issue has no real “plan” other than to improve things, and that really trips my organized and structured nature into a tizzy. I’m looking for some kind of instruction manual and/or benchmarks along the way, and there just aren’t any short of “is your relationship healthy and successful?”
Social shit just isn’t black and white, and I simply dislike working in the grey. I got into IT to avoid dealing with people after all. :P
April 17th, 2012 at 1:39 pm
Ted D wrote:
This is the bleating of a sheep who is afraid to live. You can live to avoid conflict with the law, or you can live freely until the law reins you in. It is a matter of attitude.
Our legalistic infatuations have reduced our manhood: rugged independence, presumption of innocence, citizen sovereignty. My counsel is to live boldly, and let the women/lesser men busybody themselves with regulatory niceties. I am the tornado; the rest of the herd can play FEMA and Red Cross.
All I can say is, the women in my life would not dream of recourse to technicalities in the law. (This is along the lines of Roissy’s Beta : Rape :: Alpha : “It just happened!” formulation.) For lack of a better word, call it your “thrall.” Granted, lesser men will take this role too far and abuse their manly stature. But even that a woman will prefer! Hence their secret infatuation with criminals, abusers, and sociopaths.
Women only revert to the protections of Daddy State when they are not being properly paternalized. A breakdown here is ultimately the man’s failure, which is why the complaints are misguided about Murray’s or Bennett’s challenging us to “man up.” If you are man enough, you become The Law of the household along the lines of Roman paterfamilias. Again, this role is not all “fun and games,” it can be quite daunting, particularly if you are of a certain fearful, fastidious, shrinking-violet mind frame.
No responsibilities, no rights. Whiny, half-vaginalized “MRAs” need to revisit that eternal concept, and stop crying like women about how hard it is to be a man.
Matt
April 17th, 2012 at 1:55 pm
And no matter how I might try to explain the conversation we are having here, she will not see things from my perspective at all.
You don’t explain anything. You just do it. If you try to reason with a woman on something like this you will be met with contempt or even hostility. As stingray mentioned they aren’t even aware of what is going on. They are completely immersed in the girl-world to the point where you absolutely have to use actions to push those hindbrain buttons.
April 17th, 2012 at 1:58 pm
My SO has already demonstrated that she is willing to accept leadership from me, I’m just uncomfortable with the “job”
Unfortunately it is in fact a “job”, and you can easily be fired without notice, as you learned from your previous marriage. How bad do you want to keep your job this time around? That’s what it all boils down to.
April 17th, 2012 at 1:59 pm
Ted D needs to become familiar with Athol Kay’s Captain/First Officer concept.
No boat can be run by a committee. That insane fem-democratic concept has wrecked our culture for a hundred years. And to see Ted D internalize and thereby unconsciously and indirectly propagate that fallacy is tragic.
Proper leadership does not infantalize its charges. It dignifies them through delegation and division of labor. The lazy thinkers who originated and insisted upon feminism thought they could make natural followers — 75% of men and 99% of women — into leaders just by calling them so, when all this while we should have been concentrating on fashioning the sex better disposed to leadership into a role they have always handled with proper training.
Now we groan silently under an ass-backward system, yearning either to submit to a superior (and being ashamed at the very thought!) or to be absolved of all responsibility for leadership, rather than orienting the culture toward the massive challenge of making boys into men.
Matt
April 17th, 2012 at 3:54 pm
Stingray:
“Even the most well grounded and mature woman will still look to a man for direction and emotional security.
A man she can depend on to give her this is like air.”
I was complaining about western women to a man that discovered the red pill by himself and is very wise with regards to anything related to gender relations and he said that one of the reasons the women are so hardened and bitchy and unfeminine is that there are so few men of the sort Stingray talks about in their lives that they are not just not supplied with this dose of masculine support but don`t actually imagine themselves getting it. The result is they become as single almost like women in relationship with betas.
April 17th, 2012 at 4:03 pm
Ted D:
“If I was into BDSM, I would need my submissive’s consent before proceeding to “dominate” her, correct? If I’m going to socially “dominate” her (which is to say be “king of my castle” the way described here) should I not at least get some form of approval from her first? And, I would suspect if I asked the question, I would get a resounding NO (since I know my SO claims to want an egalitarian relationship) which would then mean that my taking the lead goes directly against her stated will, regardless of if it is the right or wrong thing to do.”
THe answer socially is to do take the lead (properly with enough conviction and authority and ability to stand up to her initial resistance/testing) and then se how she responds. There is your answer. Sexually you don`t necessarily have to ask so much either. I just start bossing them around and see how they respond and if they respond well I increase the domination. Some things you do need explicit aproval for though.
April 17th, 2012 at 4:09 pm
Ted, ON some level women experience you making (fairly good) decisions for her as love and as loving the true her because it shows that your attention is directed towards her to such and extent that you care to investigate what she really needs and by actually seeing something she really needs and deciding this for her you are showing that you know her and love her. Having to ask means you don`t pay enough attention and haven`t seen who she really is and so can not really love her because you don`t know her.
April 17th, 2012 at 4:29 pm
Sexually I’m good. I would be lying if I didn’t admit that at first I was more than apprehensive about dominating in the bedroom, but her enthusiastic support got me past that pretty quickly. She takes direction well.
The social stuff is just more deeply seeded in my head, coupled with the fact that I’m really just not very socially smart. I can appear to be socially adept, but it’s mostly me emulating expected behaviors. I don’t like “people” for the most part, and never put any effort into becoming a “people person”. I’ve had a talk or two early on in my “career” with HR, mostly because I simply don’t care what people think or feel about something I do or say, and I had to learn the hard way to at least pretend to consider other people’s feelings as important. The desire for some type of consent derives directly from my experiences being smacked down whenever I attempted to go my way, and only by learning to ‘play nice’ have I managed to make it this far in the corporate world. I get that what happens in my home and what happens in the office aren’t the same, but the clear message I’ve been forced to ingest for over two decades now is: women should never be treated as anything but equal.
What we are discussing here certainly isn’t about equal treatment, and in fact is directly stating that on some level women not only want but NEED to be led by a man. Of course it’s going to trip all my alarms and whistles. This is the kind of stuff that starts harassment complaints. It doesn’t take hitting on a woman for that, just say something she can make ‘sexist’ and you may find yourself sitting in an office in the HR dept. being signed up for a seminar on equality in the work place.
April 17th, 2012 at 4:33 pm
“This is the kind of stuff that starts harassment complaints. ”
Like, what? what exactly do you picture yourself saying or doing that will get you a complaint?
April 17th, 2012 at 8:49 pm
Ted: “Am I really over thinking this?”
I think so. You’re trying to reason out a bunch of stuff that doesn’t really need to be reasoned out, where you should be accepting and testing these principles, and then seeing where they lead in your own life. You have analysis paralysis.
It’s good you’re over here asking these questions to other men, rather than HUS.
April 18th, 2012 at 6:38 am
“What do women want? Glamorous adventures without risk.”
Margarethe von Trotta, discussing character motivation within her 1981 film “The German Sisters”.
April 18th, 2012 at 9:03 am
OK, this actually makes some sense to me, but it TRULY goes against everything that indicates a woman expects to be treated as a fully functioning autonomous adult.
So is it reasonable to assume that every women, despite being a ball busting bitch in the office or not, WANTS to be “taken care of” by their man? Is this the dirty little secret that women are keeping hidden away? Because although what you posted makes sense, it is TOTALLY putting the responsibility of caring for her on my shoulders. I’m not even against that, but if that is going to be how it goes, then I have no desire to pretend otherwise. And that is my issue. I’m willing to completely take care of her, but I have no desire to pretend we are “equal partners” then. Because, if I have to “investigate what she really needs” then I’m doing more work than she is in the relationship, because I simply TELL her what I need.
And no, to me her washing the dishes more often doesn’t make it even…
April 18th, 2012 at 9:08 am
In my relationship? Nothing.
But I just posted on the other thread that I’ve had a couple run-ins with HR in my past because I’m obviously mistaken that women can be reasonable and logical.
If I spoke my mind about half of what I truly think, I’d never have another “career” position again. As far as what I might say? Well, I learned my lesson. Telling a female co-worker she is being an emotional twit is sexist. I didn’t know that before I was “re-educated”, I just assumed it meant I thought she was being an emotional twit. I had no idea only women could be that…
But, obviously, if I told my SO she was being an emotional twit, she would not sue me. So no legal concern there. She could however leave, and I’m in gray area legally there. We aren’t married, but we live together, and we both have children living in the house. I’m not the slightest bit concerned at the moment because things are good, but I’m trying to figure out how to KEEP them good long term.
April 18th, 2012 at 9:20 am
despite being a ball busting bitch
The ball busting bitch most likely acts this way because there is no man in her life providing the strength and stability she needs.
April 18th, 2012 at 9:20 am
Yes and no. It is a matter of how badly I want this to work. But to some extent it is also about how much I want to lower my standards as well. I’m expecting a fully functioning adult partner, not another dependent. I simply might be asking for too much there, and if that’s the case I need to start asking myself if I want the job at all. I’m good with having final say in big decisions, picking where we go to eat, or whatever. But I don’t know that I want to be responsible for another person’s mood, well being, and happiness for the rest of my life. I don’t have pets because I don’t want another being to take care of. I’m SO looking forward to our kids growing up and getting out that I can hardly contain the excitement because it means no longer being responsible for anyone other than myself.
And please keep in mind, I am not painting a picture of my current relationship here at all. So far I’ve made good progress in “taking charge” in the bedroom. She liked it, I liked it, we moved on. So far I’m not finding myself having to deal with any bitchfests or unreasonable moods, but I sometimes feel like she is pushing me a little bit on occasion. I’m simply trying to plan for the worst, which means I’m trying to keep the worst from happening. I’m a bit like a boy scout in that I constantly look at situations and try to plan ahead for issues. I’m in project and risk management, so it’s kinda what I do. Right now my relationship is good, I want to keep it that way long term. I don’t want to experiment, because I don’t know how to properly measure success and certainly don’t want to degrade things while trying to improve them. In short, right now I’m trying to solve problems that aren’t necessarily there so that IF they show up, I’m ready for them.
I’m beginning to think that this is not a reasonable expectation. I don’t think I can manage my relationship like a project, and that puts me in new territory in terms of exactly what the hell I should do then. I don’t “shoot from the hip”, I’m not “adventurous and exciting”, and I usually do my best to avoid danger in general. I feel like I should be actively DOING something, but much of what is being said here is more about NOT doing something, and by that I mean simply standing your ground and not taking shit. To me that sounds like how I behave at work, it seems adversarial.
April 18th, 2012 at 9:25 am
“So is it reasonable to assume that every women, despite being a ball busting bitch in the office or not, WANTS to be “taken care of” by their man?”
Yes. In all things. She wants you to break the ties, make the decisions, and direct the course of your lives together. That is on your shoulders. And therefore, you and your SO are not “equal partners”. You are dominant, she is submissive. Thing is, she has to agree to be submissive.
There are things you can do to gently mold and press her into submission and enforce it (a little dread, negs, preselection) but if she won’t agree, she won’t agree — and she’ll never be happy. That won’t, however, be your problem.
April 18th, 2012 at 9:28 am
I actually started my journey to the red pill at MMSL. I’ve read Athol’s book, twice.
My issue isn’t with his model at all, it’s with the fact that no one (at least most men and just about all women) don’t want to admit that this is the preferred setup in a relationship. I’m good with it, but I want it out in the open. Otherwise it is all a deception intended to keep the peace.
Maybe its a matter of time? StingRay seems to be fine with it, so perhaps after being in such a relationship, women come to realize it is actually what they want and acknowledge it outright?
Look, I’m completely good with “leading” my SO in whatever capacity is required. But, I want her to realize what she is asking of me, and accept it openly. I’m not going to pretend in public that we are “equals” if I’m the one doing the heavy lifting. But, as StingRay also pointed out, much of this stuff is unconscious, so I don’t know how she would ever recognize all of the work I’m putting in. So, she may very well still expect us to be equals while the entire time I feel like I’m pulling 75% of the weight.
April 18th, 2012 at 9:29 am
Ted:
You are responsible for the decisions and directing the course of your lives together. You are not, however, responsible for her moods, her feelings, her well-being or her happiness.
You are not responsible for another person’s conduct, actions, or feelings.
You cannot make your SO happy. She has her circumstances, and she voluntarily chooses to be happy or unhappy.
April 18th, 2012 at 9:35 am
If you please her (by being dominate) you may very well find that she simply falls into her natural role of her wanting to please you. My opinion is that you are wrong in wanting to bring this out in the open with her. There is nothing for her to admit as she doesn’t actually know what she wants. If you try to bring this into the open with her, she will resent you for it. Bring to the relationship what you want it to be and see what happens. No one can give you a manual. You have to create your own.
April 18th, 2012 at 9:35 am
This is far more like work than a relationship to me… All my life I thought the “hard” work of a relationship was going to work, paying the bills, taking care of the yard and house, and “communicating” effectively. Compared to THIS, all that is a cakewalk.
Well it’s painfully obvious why my marriage tanked. I don’t know that I want to jump through all these hoops simply to keep a woman in my life happy and content. It is asking me to take on a whole new level of responsibility for another person, yet no one ever ONCE clearly spelled that out for me. It’s no wonder my ex was unhappy, I did everything I could to LET HER decide things. Even when I thought she was full of shit…
April 18th, 2012 at 9:43 am
“There is nothing for her to admit as she doesn’t actually know what she wants. ”
And its wrong of me to want her to understand what she wants?
“If you try to bring this into the open with her, she will resent you for it.”
So teaching her about her own nature is a bad thing? For Christ’s sake, is there anything logical at all about dealing with a woman? I feel like we are talking about a species other than human. I get that men and women are different, but honestly, we all have the capacity for self examination and rational thought. All I want is for her to understand her nature, but somehow that ruins the “magic” of it all? Is it too much to expect people to figure thier own selves out before they expect someone else to do it for them? I feel like not knowing the WHY of it makes her an incomplete person. I can’t stand “feeling” or “thinking” a certain way without knowing why. I simply want her to ask herself WHY about her own motivations. I’m not perfect, but at least I do my best not to act on things I don’t understand. Living the way you describe is leaving an awful lot to emotion and chance. Not knowing why something upsets you give IT the power to upset you again.
I want to bang my head against the wall again.
April 18th, 2012 at 9:58 am
So teaching her about her own nature is a bad thing?
The way that you want to go about doing it will only blow up in your face. You cannot explain it to her. She won’t hear you.
Is it too much to expect people to figure thier own selves out before they expect someone else to do it for them?
No it’s not. But you are going to have to give her time to do this. She is not going to get this by sitting down and listening to you talk about it with her. She may figure it out on her own with some direction from you (ie. you not putting up with shit tests), but until you give her some time to contemplate this on her own, if you try to reason it out with her, you will lose her rational side within the first sentence. The feelings will overwhelm her and then you have lost. It’s not worth it.
I feel like not knowing the WHY of it makes her an incomplete person. I can’t stand “feeling” or “thinking” a certain way without knowing why.
You are projecting your own feelings onto her. As long as the two of you are happy and you are both getting much of what you want from the relationship who cares whether or not she understands it? What’s important is that you are getting her respect. She will understand that and it is enough.
April 18th, 2012 at 10:02 am
It’s not the relationship you’re working on, it’s yourself that you’re working on. You seem to have this idealized goal state in mind, to perfect the relationship.
This is how betas think – “what do I have to do to make the relationship great?”
For the Beta mindset the relationship is the focus, not themselves. A good relationship is just an incidental byproduct of an Alpha mindset. For almost 16 years I’ve been married, and in that time I have NEVER worked on my relationship. It’s good because it’s the result of my creating a better me.
https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2011/09/13/rewriting-the-rules/
April 18th, 2012 at 10:23 am
Ted,
By God, this.
Read it and read it again. Women want to be allowed to go along for the ride. Your ride. Your life. If you try to make us your life, then you’ve lost.
April 18th, 2012 at 11:25 am
“You are projecting your own feelings onto her. As long as the two of you are happy and you are both getting much of what you want from the relationship who cares whether or not she understands it? What’s important is that you are getting her respect. She will understand that and it is enough.”
Yeah I can easily see I am projecting. I expect everyone to be AT LEAST as self aware as I am, because i don’t think I’m all that far along. It seems that compared to the “muggles”, I’m leap years ahead. And it frustrates me to no end…
OK so it is reasonable to expect her to figure this out (although she is already 33 and should have figured this stuff out like a decade ago…) but in the meantime *I* can expect to do “extra work” until she can pull her own weight?
I hope you can at least understand why this frustrates me so much. I’ve already done a lot of this “self examination” bullshit to try and get my head on straight. What you and others here are telling me is now I have to help HER do the same? And at the same time pretend that we are “equal partners?” If I have to do all the heavy mental lifting, then there is no equality to speak of. And if there is no equality, then pretending there is serves NO purpose but to add to her delusions. That makes me a willing participant in my own frustration. LOL. It sounds so completely ridiculous…
I really should have started here and not at MMSL…
April 18th, 2012 at 11:31 am
Ted,
It feels tiresome now and it will feel tiresome for quite some time but that will/should eventually change. I had similar thoughts about this and when I asked the guy I see as my mentor in this, who has himself undergone a similar change, he said that it won`t be tiresome anymore once you have really changed and truly become that different man because it is not tiresome to be who you really are. And even though you are not that person today there is in your subconcious, in your nercous system in your hormonal makeup, a potential for being the type of man who can lead in a relationship, who passes shit tests because he is secure in his frame and boundaries and knows what he wants etc. And the thing is, even though you don`t understand this now, and it is probably impossible to feel this now, unlocking that potential is going to feel very, very , very good for you and is going to feel som much more natural for you once you are there than where you are now. It is kind of like being dominant in bed. It can feel strange at first, unwanted maybe, but once you feel it is ok to be and you are with someone who really enjoys it it will often start to feel great and eventually as natural and as part of your real nature.
Thing is, the nice beta parts of you can still remain in many ways but just reorganized. From a more “alpha” position you can be very nice and loving and you will also discover how being that secure calm stability for her feels good also because of what you can see it gives her in the moment and it will also start to feel good because of the rewards she gives you because of it. She will sort of open up in her femininity more and become more loving and doting and nurturing etc. and that will feel great.
April 18th, 2012 at 11:42 am
Well that was what I believed, but unless I’m reading wrong, that isn’t what I’m being told now. IF I want/expect a happy relationship, it seems I AM at least on some level responsible for her moods, happiness, and feelings. Sure, I can go on doing whatever the hell I want and let her get mad, leave, or whatever, but that doesn’t seem to be the recipe for long term success. I know I can’t literally “make her happy”, but it seems like a lot of the things described here are simply ways of manipulating her to be “happy”, which to me is the exact same damn thing, other than by this method I will have to expend a good deal of time and energy to create an environment where she will be “happy”.
See, here is my thing. She makes me happy simply by being around. I enjoy spending time with her, but I also don’t expect her to “work around” my logical thinking and general lack of emotional response to “make me happy”. I know she doesn’t think like me, and I don’t expect her to. But, me doing all of this IS her “expecting” me to act differently to make HER happy. It isn’t the same at all. And, even if I DO all this stuff, the best I get is a happy SO? NO credit for busting my ass? No break on doing dishes, or laundry, or whatever because I had to twist my head around just to keep her content?
Yes, I realize she doesn’t ‘realize’ she expects all this, which is why I want to tell her. I’m good with doing it all, but not without some acknowledgement of all the damn work I’m putting in.
That is my definition of a thankless fucking job. All the work, none of the credit.
April 18th, 2012 at 11:51 am
Ted D wrote:
Do you yell at infants for being so stupid too?
Indeed, men are the more rational sex. But don’t toot your own horn so much, chief, just because you are a late member to the club. You are less rational than you think: a man who has abjured his manly role has less use for reason than do proper men, and they are therefore, out of disuse and spiritual flabbiness, not as “logical” as they pretend to be. We XYers begin with a relative advantage to the XX by virtue of our balls, but balls, like any inheritance, can be prodigiously squandered.
We talk shit about women around here because, well, it’s a men’s club. It goes with the scotch, cigars, and mahogany-paneled draw rooms. Indeed, women are rational creatures, in some ways as rational as us. But they are steeped in cultural and physiological pressures that agitate against their rationality, and to remove them from such pressures is to denude their nature, unsex them, and then ask those epicene grotesqueries to perform. To make women as logical as men is not worth the mutilation of so beautiful a sylphic creature.
Matt
April 18th, 2012 at 11:55 am
Well shit.
I’m no longer a push over at home. I have taken control of my finances, am getting back into better shape (have a long way to go, but I’m at least half way there), I’m getting back into writing music and collaborating with old friends, and despite being set back with a divorce am managing to move on without much drama. I’ve been successfully running a MAP for months, and I’m feeling pretty good about the progress. And that is why things are going well in my relationship up to now?
So “the relationship” doesn’t actually need much focus, and instead that effort should be put into doing what’s best for me. If I do that, 75% of the hard relationship work is done, and the rest is a little bit of “game” and “communication”?
All the talk about “how hard relationships are” is utter bullshit? The key to all of this actually is to just be happy with yourself, and not give a shit otherwise? And she will be happy doing whatever it is *I* want regardless of her desires?
I will never be able to “control” my relationship, and all of my trying will simply result in more of this frustration?
April 18th, 2012 at 12:08 pm
Ted, I just have to say it’s gratifying and educational watching you wash down the last of the honkin’ red pill you’ve been nursing for the past few months or so.
April 18th, 2012 at 12:10 pm
LOL don’t celebrate yet. I’m still choking on the bitch…
April 18th, 2012 at 12:15 pm
Ted C wrote:
You are a man-child, an overgrown boy, a discredit to my sex. Take your faux free-spirit faggotry elsewhere. We don’t get to choose our duties. We can only choose to renounce them, which you are so desperately trying to find a legitimate way to do. Which is repulsive.
And besides, you over-interpreted the mandate. You are not responsible for her “mood” or “happiness.” But you are responsible for her well-being. This idea that we must fixate on moodiness and what makes us happy is part of the modern perversion of priorities.
You take an oath before your God and pledge eternal loyalty to your spouse, and she abrogates that by casually declaring one day, “I’m just not happy”? The fact that a woman makes life-altering decisions for you, herself, and your children over this latter-day American mythos about a right to happiness? Your fault, weakling.
The idea must be snuffed out in the cradle, or it must be rigorously disabused from her through your own consistency and strength (and against the culture). Life is not about making Mr. and Mrs. Ted C happy. The universe doesn’t give a fuck about what you expected out of life. You are not supposed to be nice. You are enjoined to be good, which quite often makes you and others around you something less than an atmosphere “happy smiley face :) :D :) :D “. What a nation of soft brats we have raised. No wonder why the shaggy-haired emo pussies we now call “men” are drug addled from boyhood and delusional about women.
Matt
April 18th, 2012 at 12:25 pm
And she will be happy doing whatever it is *I* want regardless of her desires?
I think you will find that your desires become her desires, Ted.
Also, the only thing you can control is yourself. When you can do that, she will follow along as *you* are the only place she will want to be.
April 18th, 2012 at 12:34 pm
This is why real men are entrepreneurs, business owners, and independent contractors. I would last about ten seconds with some imperious “HR department” (which are notoriously staffed by women, correct? I am proud that I don’t even know…) before laughing at their absurd expectations. I cringe to even enter the post office or DMV. The nausea descends on me with the fluorescent glow.
I write the “harassment” policies in my office, and as for the cartoon code that petarded Clinton, all I can say is, come and get me, coppers. I insist that the girls who “work” for/with me put the ass in harass, or get out of the way of the Men At Work.
We’ve diagnosed the problem for you, Ted. Take a baby step or make a global change in your life. You don’t have to go start a business. But do something in the direction of independence.
Matt
April 18th, 2012 at 12:40 pm
First of all, fuck you. You really don’t know shit about me, my sense of duty, or how seriously I take my responsibilities. All you know for sure is I’m completely clueless about women. It’s all fine and well for you to sit in judgement over me because I am stupid, but don’t ever assume that my ignorance makes me weak willed or irresponsible. All this bullshit I’m going through is BECAUSE I want to be a responsible mate for my SO. If I didn’t take this shit seriously I wouldn’t give a fuck, which strangely enough seems to be part of the solution.
And I am not currently married but I do live with my SO and our children. I realize that *i* am resposible for my failed marriage. How the hell do you think I ever found MMSL and HUS? I was crushed when I first realized just how much a willing participant I was in my divorce, and I decided to never let it happen again, which has finally brought me here.
Kick me in the ass all you want, but don’t question my sense of duty or dedication. I may be ignorant, but I’m not some lazy fucking waste of flesh trying to get by with minimum effort. I just want to do shit right without making any stupidly obvious mistakes, and frankly almost having my shit wrecked by divorce has my panties in a bunch.
And thanks.
April 18th, 2012 at 2:03 pm
So is it reasonable to assume that every women, despite being a ball busting bitch in the office or not, WANTS to be “taken care of” by their man? Is this the dirty little secret that women are keeping hidden away?
Yes it is.
April 18th, 2012 at 2:17 pm
King A – “This is why real men are entrepreneurs, business owners, and independent contractors”
I was told growing up that I would never own a business, or be a CEO. I’m a bastard child of a first generation Polish immigrant that was P & D’d by a ‘cad’ and have been told my “lot in life” since i can remember. I’ve managed to hold down an IT career since 1994 (despite several early encounters with sexual harassment and HR) and get a college degree, which is a first for my family.
I’m not trying to go all Maury on you, but it’s easy for someone that truly believes they can do anything to look down on someone that doesn’t. Up until a few years ago, I truly believed that my life would never be any better than this. That the most I had to look forward to was retiring, when I could finally do what *I* wanted with my life, and my obligations to my children were fulfilled. Then my wife said “she wasn’t happy” and “she loved me but wasn’t in love with me” (I fucking hate that it is so cliche that it’s in Athol’s book) and I saw it all come crumbling down.
Three years later I’m in better physical shape, I’m making more money, and I’m just starting to have hope that I can still salvage my ass. You are correct that I’m finally seeing things clearly, and at the moment I’m somewhere between wanting to kick myself in the ass repeatedly and trying to catch my breath. I want more than anything else to get this right. I would like my children to see at least one decent relationship in their lives before they have to face this themselves. I don’t want my son to grow up believing his “lot in life” is to work for someone else until he gets so old that he can’t enjoy living, and I don’t want my daughter to expect a man to do so for her and her children.
I’m working on it, I really am. But I’m not just fighting years of misinformation about women here, I’m fighting years of misinformation about life. I find myself in a “career” I really didn’t want simply because I allowed myself to believe I could never do better. And the worst part is I’ve been PROUD of that fact. I was proud that I did better than my family before me, that I did more than I was told I could, and the God’s honest truth is it doesn’t mean shit. At best it is a tool, a means to an end, a way to make money to support my family, but it is no accomplishment to display for the world.
But, that’s fine. It just means that what I thought was my ‘meaning’ in life was bull. I have to find new meaning.
April 18th, 2012 at 2:34 pm
Just in here checking in on Rollo’s patient, Ted D. How you doing? Pill going down OK? Vitals good? Eyes open? Clear thinking? Insight good?
The patient is making good progress, but still requires some observation. We’ll keep the patient here for a couple of days. Dr. Tomassi would like his confidence/dominance levels and self-esteem levels taken every 8 hours. We’ll administer some further red pill in the morning, and discharge plan him in a few days with a prescription for reading up here and getting to the gym.
April 18th, 2012 at 2:59 pm
I’m hanging in there. Still somewhere between utter amazement and mild nausea, but it’ll pass.
I’ve been walking daily for months and was actually down at the YMCA a week back picking up membership info.
Confidence is holding, but I feel like a real schmuck right now, so don’t expect too much. Dominance is gonna take some time, but it helps for now to simply frame it as “don’t take any shit” and we’ll go from there. I need to re-frame all of my thinking, not just the stuff regarding relationships and women. In fact, my ‘frame’ in that respect is probably just fine, I just need to stop worrying about it and move on to more important stuff.
My blood pressure and heart rate are probably up at the moment, partly because I’m a bit pissed off that at 41 I’m having to do all the shit I should have accomplished when I was 20-something. But that’s fine. Anger is a good motivator for me.
All in all, I’ll live.
April 18th, 2012 at 3:50 pm
Ted,
If you are joining the Y here are two invaluable sites:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/
http://www.t-nation.com/
Read, read, read, and then read some more. They are great places for information.
April 18th, 2012 at 5:17 pm
Ted,
I skimmed many of the recent comments…but here are some thoughts. Try to get out of your head so much. I’m an analytical type, but you are overanalyzing, overthinking, and seem to have a desire to want to oververbalize these things to your SO. Rollo has made an excellent point in the past about the tendency of beta guys to want to vomit everything out. You do NOT need to talk through every single detail with your SO about these dynamics. You just have to DO and take action and than observe the response, and course correct, and calibrate.
You need to stop thinking about this stuff like a Six Sigma Black Belt process manager with flowcharts and precise measurements and start thinking in terms of the frame you project. Go reread and really think about the comments Yohami and Stingray have posted ,especially Stingray. She is probably the most self-aware woman I’ve encountered in terms of believing able to step outside herself and analyze her own emotional reactions as a woman to specific male behavior. She had some great comments about why you absolutely should NOT be verbalizing every little thing to your SO.
One thing I think you need to do is stop looking for guidance in the wrong places and from the wrong people and I think you know exactly what I mean. From your own description, it sounds like things with your SO are in good shape, so you may be overthinking/getting worked up for nothing.
April 18th, 2012 at 7:01 pm
MikeC,
Very sincerely, thank you, Sir.
April 19th, 2012 at 9:44 pm
I’m not your dad, so you can save the teenage hysterics. And you can save the “You really don’t know shit about me” for the forums where people still believe in NAMALT and Precious Little Snowflakes. I really do know quite a bit about you because I know your type, but leave that aside. By asserting you break the mold and assuming certain moral physics don’t apply to you is one of the better indications that your predicament is as typical as I claimed it is.
Further, I wasn’t referring to you as an emo pussy. I was saying your tendency to shrink from duty (“I don’t know that I want to be responsible for another person[]….”) places you along the same continuum of the younger shaggy haired brats who have renounced responsibility altogether, and that is dangerous slope to be sliding down. In other words, there but for the grace of God go you. The weeping, lost manboy is the end-point of renouncing responsibility.
“I don’t know that I want”? Who asked you what you want? To what kind of mind does that question even occur? To women and bratty complainers afraid of/baffled by manhood. That was whom I was criticizing, whom I can’t stand to hear whine, who disrespects me by his very presence. Men do what needs to be done, whatever challenges lie before them. They shut the fuck up about it, and do it.
It’s true: I don’t know you. But what little you chose to reveal to us, and the way you have reacted, indicates how distorted your understanding of manhood is. Did you think we would sympathize with your plight, cry on each other’s shoulders, and bond over crumb cake? Men toughen each other up by beating on each other. Gird yourself better.
Matt
April 19th, 2012 at 10:31 pm
Too much support-circle vibe for Ted D. Changing your frame means stop looking back, stop lacerating yourself on memory, stop defeating yourself before you begin. This is a talking forum, but there is no talking cure. Women talk it out. Men pummel it out.
There is no such thing as regret. Regret is living backward. Who cares about what happened before this moment? The only people who wistfully contemplate What Might Have Been are those who have decided their future will be defined by morose fatalism:
You will not find deliverance by relitigating the past. You have been called, the truth is plain in front of your face. Your only choice is to drop your nets and pursue it, or collapse into self-pity.
Hand to the plow, brother.
Matt