Free Lunch

“Rollo talks a lot about shaming tactics from women, and one I’m hearing now is that if the man doesn’t pay for the date, he is actually being feminine and passive, and is attracting more masculine, ball-busting like girls because he’s giving his role of pursuer up, and feminine women will be repelled by men who don’t pay for their drinks/dinner/dates etc.

To me, it just sounds like women being afraid of losing an advantage they’ve always had, free stuff.

How do you see it? First date is coffee, do you pay for that? Does she pay for her own? Do you look cheap if you buy that first cup? Do you look needy if you buy that first cup?”

Law 40: Despise the Free Lunch
What is offered for free is dangerous— it usually involves either a trick or a hidden obligation. What has worth is worth paying for. By paying your own way you stay clear of gratitude, guilt, and deceit. It is also often wise to pay the full price— there is no cutting corners with excellence. Be lavish with your money and keep it circulating, for generosity is a sign and a magnet for power.

Read this again, what has worth is worth paying for. The feminization of culture has simultaneously distorted the formality of a man paying for a date into a form of masculine control while still an being a required masculine obligation. It’s a Catch 22 – screwed if you do, screwed if you don’t, and there are two conflicting perspectives for this.

As I’ve expressed on a few occasions; as a man in this life, you will ALWAYS pay for sex in one form or another. That may be buying coffee, drinks, dinner, a concert ticket, a wedding ring or a mortgage payment, but always trust that there is going to be a cost associated with you and sex. Whether it’s with your nebulous ‘Quality Woman’ or the prostitute you picked up off the Trail for half an hour – you’re going to pay.

The second perspective is the ‘Chivalry’s not dead’ approach. Nothing has served the feminine imperative better over the years than to convince the male populace at large that it’s his codified moral obligation to prove his provisioning capacity to her in an effort to qualify for her intimacy. This point of view has had a long history of perpetual requisites for a man, but the holdover, and starting point today is paying for the drinks / date / etc based on a traditional, gender specific, obligation.

In light of that, if it makes you feel a sense of completed duty in paying for a woman’s drinks / meal, then by all means continue to do so, but not because a woman’s convinced you of a moral obligation. My approach is to recognize this ‘tradition’ for what it really is. You’re a Man. Men of power despise a free lunch; not from business associates and certainly not from a woman he intends to make his pleasure.

What has worth is worth paying for. By paying your own way you stay clear of gratitude, guilt, and deceit.

You also stay clear of obligation. There can never, and will never, be an egalitarian equality between the sexes: we are different. The good news is this is the way women want it in spite of their feminization conditionings. Covertly, women want a Man who initiates, approaches, drives, and yes, pays the tab. However, when overtly pressed about ‘paying her way’, she is forced into a position of denying this because her conditioning has taught her “she is her own person” and the expectations of her day say she should at least pay half, not be afraid to approach a man, initiate a date herself, etc. Make Sadie Hawkins proud.

These are masculine expectations, and much like the “virtues” of the professional woman, feminine masculinization conditions her to equate her value on masculine terms, while still being a woman. The fallacy being that a Man ‘should’ be attracted to the same masculine traits she finds attractive. And predictably, innate gender nature continues to contradict this.

So yes, pay for the drinks, date, etc., just know what you’re paying for. What has worth is worth paying for – is she worth the payment? You are the Prince, your attentions have value, does she appreciate them? Have a plan, make the decisions, direct the course of the date. If she’s unresponsive or only luke warm in her reciprocation – NEXT! Hypergamy makes ALL women opportunists by order of  degree; accept that, it’s simply how the world works. Golddiggers are women who overtly acknowledge this opportunism in word and behavior; they’re not too hard to recognize if you want to see them.

You’ll know more about her the morning after you bang her brains out than you ever will on a casual, comfy dinner date.

I want you to want me

,..but, Rollo I want it to be because of who I am, not what I can pay for.

This is an uncomfortable truth, and a lot of guys don’t like to hear it, but your capacity to pay is PART of who you are.

Your accomplishments, your career, your passions, your aspirations, your physique, are all PART of you. There are parts of you that are more attractive than others, but the sum is what makes you who you are. There was a thread on the SoSuave forum a week ago regarding career choices and how this relates to life and women etc. I realize this may be an unpopular opinion on this, but what you choose to do as a vocation is part of who you are. It may not be your source of personal identity, but for better or worse, your vocation and it’s associations become a part of your identity. It’s similar to how you look physically is part of you. It’s a comfortable fiction to think that women are less interested in a man’s physique, or should be attracted to a guy unbiased by what he does – but these are all part of a whole.

Egalitarian Equalism is self-defeating; it leaves a vaccuum of power or responsibilities to be filled by either sex in the wrong instances; for instance, expecting a man to possess the equitable feminine qualities he’s lacking yet still holding him accountable for them. In other words, if a wife feels her husband is incapable of providing for her and the kids with the decisive, confident security of leadership she will feel compelled to assume the role of the husband and he will be relegated to the role of being the passive, submissive wife. In the egalitarian model this is acceptable, socially reinforced and passed on as learned behavior to their children. And in this generation (and perhaps the one prior) it’s not a stretch to assume that contemporary male submissiveness was in fact taught to them by their own parents.This may seem like I’m being overly analytical, but look at this framework from the perspective of paying for a date / drinks / events etc. from the beginning stages of an LTR or even just spinning a plate. This egalitarian model has filtered into the male social identity to the point that a guy thinks it common place for a woman to initiate and approach him with a date proposition. He thinks it normal for a woman to want to pay the tab, open doors for him, etc. These are traditionally Men’s behaviors that AFCs believe women think are empowering and attractive in women.

Your Grandfather never pondered whether he or your then-to-be Grandmother would get the bill; it wasn’t even an afterthought. He payed the tab and Grandma was appreciative. And that’s what’s at issue – appreciation. Feminization has stacked the deck against a guy to the point where he questions a woman’s motives. Does she appreciate his generosity or does she feel entitled to it?


32 responses to “Free Lunch

  • A.B. Dada

    Never bothered me to pick up a drink or even a dinner early on, but the difference is that the biggest cost to going out with a new gal is my time, not my money.

    While I rarely throw money at a woman and no woman I date ever know what I am worth or not worth, if I think she’s pretty enough and I want to test her femininity, a drink or a small meal it is — but the 1-2 hours of my time invested is worth way more than $10 or $50 or what-not.

    I never buy a big meal until she’s proven that she can cook food for me, the way I like it. I don’t mention this until she asks “Why don’t we go out for dinner ever?” That answer is easy — “Why haven’t you cooked me a roast and sweet potatoes ever?”

    All relationships are economic in nature. Economic does not mean financial. A parent may have a child for happiness economic values, or a man may date a woman for sexual economic values, but all relationships are economic. If there wasn’t a mutual profit gained by both sides of a transaction, that transaction would fail.

    Still, I don’t think it’s a big deal to get a gal dinner or drinks — as long as you don’t make a big deal of it, and as long as you feel a gain from it. Value your time, first, over the money. Make her “pay” for that time you’re investing, maybe by being a good conversationalist, or sex, or arm candy to raise your DHV, or whatever it is you feel is a “profit” for the time you’ve “invested.”

  • Jake

    I will pay for coffee or the first drink, but never her share of our first dinner out or activity/entertainment. I do this for a few reasons.

    I want to see her reaction. Did she expect me to pay? Did she feel that sense of entitlement and was it taken away from her? How does she respond? Overtly? Whining? Shaming? Any of those and it’s a sure NEXT.

    I want to set expectations. If I do pay for her in the future it’s because I’m rewarding her for good behaviour, not because I feel obligated to.

    I do it because it’s uncomfortable for me. It’s so much easier to just reach for the wallet than to create a potentially uncomfortable situation. But you’ll never learn anything by going the comfortable route.

  • Traveller

    “This is an uncomfortable truth, and a lot of guys don’t like to hear it, but your capacity to pay is PART of who you are.”

    Distilled truth here. Should be common sense, but in these times…

  • Tanner

    This – like everything is all about frame – If the first thing a girl says to you is, “buy me a drink” then you’re screwed for doing so and playing into her frame. Contrast this to telling a woman you’ll be at this restaurant at this time and she’s welcome to join you if she wants, then paying for her meal.

    Paying is a sign of strength when it’s done in a proactive or expected-of-yourself type attitude, whereas it’s the sign of a chump if done as a reaction or fulfilling an expectation of hers.

  • Sam Spade

    When I dated, I always initially paid. If a woman later wanted to offer a round, I would protest a little but let her pay if she insisted. What I found was that I’d spend a little money, get laid, and then she’d start offering to pay for things half the time to keep me around.

    Today I’m married, and even though we both earn money, I still “pay” when we go out. In fact, if my wife happens to have the cash on her, she’ll slip it to me under the table so that her husband is still the one paying. It’s something I never asked her to do but I enjoy the fact that she does it. It’s not that she’s embarrassed to pay, it’s that she sees our dynamic this way – the man pays when the couple goes out, period, and regardless of the true source of the cash.

    Any supporter of the “egalitarian” theory should take note that wait staff still default to the gentleman when bringing the bill or serving the wine. This is the Catch-22 in live action: It’s seen as a man’s duty, but also it would be implicitly insulting to both were a waiter to bring the check to the female. I don’t care how “equal” the sexes are in the eyes of the law; if a waiter brings the check to the woman first, it’s emasculating.

    Where paying on dates drifts into “man up” style shaming is when men without the means feel the need to buy expensive dinners and gifts.

  • YaReally

    lol fuck this is going backwards. What’s next? “Actually it’s alpha to marry a girl and you should always let her do anything she wants.”

    You can rationalize paying however you like but at the end of the day you’re spending money that you don’t need to spend. If I’m walking to the store up the street I COULD walk In circles around a few buildings and climb over a tree before i finally get there…but why not just walk straight to it?

  • DerHahn

    @Tanner .. well said. It’s all about framing ala the Golden Rule .. whoever has the gold gets to make the rules.

  • who really cares

    “What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.” T. Paine

    Like that book [i]Influence[/i] says, people usually place a higher value on things that are harder to obtain. It might work as a general rule but it’s exploitable as hell as a tool to manipulate people.

    And fuck that chivalry crap. I love it when they play that card like a comic welcomes the totally predictability of a drunken heckler: it’s a chance to riff off a powerful theme that even the most brain dead woman can’t or won’t publicly deny. In this case that’s the ideology of total gender equality.

    Acting with a subtone of being offended: “You’re right I’m not a gentleman. It’s 2012 and we’re all equal, right? So if I were to buy you a [whatever] that’s be an insult, like you can’t buy your own [whatever]. In fact, why don’t YOU buy ME a double Midleton’s neat with a splash of water? Then we can talk.”

    Or like someone on Chateau said and that’s actually led to me getting a free drink or two, “I don’t buy women drinks. You must have mistaken me for every other guy here. [gesturing around the room dismissively] I’m sure one of them will hook you up.”

    Sure I’ll pick up a round or two here and there after the intro phase but I’m not desperate or cheap: I’m expensive and indifferent until enticed otherwise. And there’s always another woman, even when there’s not that night at that venue. Always.

  • itsme

    these days i find that waitstaff tend to put the check in a neutral area of the table, rather than in front of the man or woman.

  • xsplat

    As I’ve expressed on a few occasions; as a man in this life, you will ALWAYS pay for sex in one form or another. That may be buying coffee, drinks, dinner, a concert ticket, a wedding ring or a mortgage payment, but always trust that there is going to be a cost associated with you and sex. Whether it’s with your nebulous ‘Quality Woman’ or the prostitute you picked up off the Trail for half an hour – you’re going to pay.

    I agree that sex is a commodity that on the whole men pay for, but I quibble with the accuracy and utility of saying we always pay for it.

    How would this example fit into the always category? I was night club hopping in Chiang Mai, hunting for poon and getting a good buzz on, and was getting the high nosed sniffy treatment from the girls I approached. The High So’s were being no fun, so I went to the back of the club and sat myself down at a table of lower class girls, who I assumed were prostitutes and professional players. We got along great from the get go, and a few hours later the 5 of them were back up at my apartment. Despite my clumsy attempts at getting group sex going, 4 of them left, leaving me with my favorite girl. We proceeded to fuck all night and all the next day, leaving my stomach muscles sore for a week. I never paid her. A few days later she shows up at my apartment and invites me out. I tell her I can’t as I’m flat broke, and down to my coin stash for food and booze. She says no problem, it’s her treat. They take me up the mountains and we slide down the river on a bamboo raft. They pay for my beers. A few days later they take me out to a lakeside park for beers and lunch.

    I never paid a dime with that girl, and got plenty of sex. She paid my way for the three or four dates we had. After that she just didn’t call, and I didn’t call her. I’d meet her randomly when out from time to time. I met her once with a western girlfriend and got a big sloppy kiss from her, got her to flash her beautiful titties, and playfully discussed setting up a threesome. Or I’d see her and just say hi. That was it.

    Did I pay?

    Do men ALWAYS pay?

  • Good Luck Chuck

    As with many other things, it isn’t the action, it’s what the action conveys. If the act of buying something conveys that you are a needy chump who has to use his money to purchase affection, you’re dead in the water. If the act conveys that you are a man of power who enjoys having a good time while being surrounded by people who bring value to his life and has the means to keep people entertained, that’s a completely different story.

    I know this will rile up the PUA brigade but some men actually enjoy making and spending money. For guys who bring in the cash there is absolutely nothing wrong with throwing it here and there to not only have a good time but also to create an image. Hardcore PUA’s that have never had two nickles to rub together will try to tell you that doing this will only attract gold diggers and chicks who are looking for a provider type but fact is it goes much deeper than that. When you play this game correctly you walk around with an aura that surrounds you that flips the exact same attraction switches that game does. The attraction is no less real just because there was money involved.

    I will admit that a lot of guys lack a deep enough understanding of these principles to the point where they should keep their money in their pocket most of the time (I know a couple of them personally), but that doesn’t invalidate the concept of spreading your money around to create an investment that pays itself back many times over in the form of cash AND pussy. Guys who play this game would do well to study the 48 Laws of Power.

  • xsplat

    On an early date with my current girl and her dorm room friend, here in Indonesia where there are less feminist expectations, I pulled this stunt: at the end of the meal I told her “You pay”.

    She was shocked and in disbelief. “No really – you pay”.

    The student girl had very little money given to her in her monthly allowance, and even paying for a lunch at a roadside stall was a minor hardship. She politely pretended not to put off by my demand.

    After she paid I exclaimed “Aha! You paid! That means you love me!”

    Then I slipped a bill into her back pocket.

    This little stunt thrilled her no end.

  • xsplat

    There are many game advocates who agree with this principle. If you like Sushi, it’s pointless to avoid taking the girl out to an “expensive” sushi dinner, just to avoid sending signals of spending money on her. Don’t let her get in the way of eating what you’d eat anyway. Go out and eat your sushi, and let her come along.

    If the cost of the meal is a genuine hardship and you’d not spend that money independently of purchasing sex, then you’ll be subconsciously be sending out the “wrong kind” of provider signals.

    Provider signals are fine. Attractive, actually. The wrong kind are the kind where you are trading provisioning for sex that you could not otherwise get.

    The right kind is having an abundance that you can easily afford to share.

  • Jim

    As said in the comments, it can depend on maintaining your owning the frame of the interaction. However, it can easily spin into anti-game, such as if one over-pays because he’s an AFC or has an inaccurate perception of worth then it just contributes to the current over-inflated pussy bubble where AFC guys think they have to pay a lot and girls think they are entitled to being bought for the highest price (aside from regular girls, even fat hookers now have raise their prices up to $500 and they aint no cute bubble butts either – just round as a bubble to the highest AFC bidder). Game would involve paying the least amount. If anyone besides a relative, especially in a business deal, buys you anything expensive (especially trying to overtly pay you off with money), then they have a covert-motive that is not just about what something might be worth or not. Even if his subjective perception is in question he should not buy a shirt for $2000 when he could buy the shirt for $5. Game as many of us know it (a few linked to on the side here) would involve before getting laid to never pay more than just going out and only buying not costly drinks.
    Instead of over-spending, all we got to do is what Russell Brand says in the clip “The Fame Wand.” Ask her, “Would you like to have a turn on the fame wand?” Brand says, “(My) fame wand : Turning sluts into celebrities.” Then say to her while grabbing your wand, “I’ll make you famous, POOW!”

  • xsplat

    I have a system set up that maintains my favorite dynamic.

    At the end of the meal, I’ll hand the girl my wallet and instruct her to pay. Or if she is a live in, I’ll occasionally give her household spending money, which she will use for our expenses when we go out.

    I don’t like to be bothered with the details of handling money. I prefer my attendant to care for me.

    In this way she is the one performing the gestures of paying, and I am the one providing.

  • Rick Silverback

    This topic has been covered here or over at the Chateau before and I recall a commenter referencing a post about this on In Mala Fide. I can’t recall if I ever found the original, but I agree with the commenters take on it. First of all, particularly if you are older and have money and are dating
    younger women then you should pay.If you are in your 40′s making a few hundred a year and are dating a 27 y.o. “administrative assistant” then nothing would scream beta chump more than expecting her to pay half of a 100 dollar dinner check. Yes, I said dinner. You are a busy man and are capable of multitasking. The whole point (and this was also brought out by said commenter) is that you set the frame. You make it clear that you would be at this place regardless of whether she was your date or not, either with another woman, buddy or coworker. You do not take her to any place special that you do not already frequent. See how she responds. If she is appreciative and reciprocates by cooking for you or insisting on paying at times for things within her range (i.e when you stop for coffee while on a walk or buying you a small gift) then you are making progress. If she immediately acts entitled and then expects that you take her to a fancier place next time she is unceremoniously dumped. The point is that when you are over 35 your life should be your game and should help you immediately establish hand. You don’t want to waste time,don’t need to and are beyond the skittles game.This of course can all be calibrated according to your situation, but as Rollo says, money is part of your presentation,whether we like it or not.
    Notice that I am not advocating that a 24 y.o. man on his first job who is sharing an apt. with two other guys should go on “dinner dates”. Here it is
    appropriate to essentially spend no money before the bang, because that is the natural situation that this man finds himself in. He can buy her breakfast at the diner in the morning because he would go there himself anyway.
    I know I am reiterating much of what Rollo has said, but the key is to spend money at the level which you would normally do regardless of her and to make sure she understands exactly that point. She is not special(yet) and you are doing what you want and allowing her to participate instead of someone else. If she doesn’t get it…NEXT

  • flyfreshandyoung

    If you’re going to pay, you pay like it’s no big fucking deal. Because it shouldn’t be.

    You get into all sorts of trouble when you look at her while paying, hesitate for the check, do the double pump, whatever. As if you’re trying to guage some kind of feedback or reaction from her, or fishing for gratefulness or some kind of reciprocation.

    When you’re at a restaurant you invited her out to, you pick up the check without an afterthought, resuming wherever you were at in your conversation.

    When you’re at the bar and want a shot, you tell her you are getting some shots if she wants one too. I do this all the time, especially since I love shots, and have yet to lose a girl because of it.

    As soon as you stop worrying about how you look when you buy shit at all, and instead treat at as part of the experience, she’s along for the ride, something that is no big deal, etc, a lot of these “who buys” issues cease to matter. And you’ll find a lot of girls will want to reciprocate.

  • flyfreshandyoung

    you are getting some shots, and does she want one too*

  • Rick Silverback

    Flyfresh my man,
    You said it exactly, in a lot fewer words than me……..

  • YaReally

    Huh…weird, these guys don’t seem to be paying. Maybe you’re doing it wrong lol:

    (most of the vids have more footage spliced in throughout the speaking parts so watch the entire vids or you’ll miss out on some good stuff)

  • Spade

    Cosign.

    Treat them like your friends. Would you pay for a friend’s lunch if y’all went out? How about his/her drinks when you are at the club? Screw that noise. Paying for things died with the feminist movement. Yes, time is money, but money is money, too. Why waste it on some cunt? Especially, when you can find women who don’t care about paying their way — game must be good, though.

  • YaReally

    I wonder how much the cover charge to talk to girls on the street cost these guys. My favorite part of the video is where they bought all those drinks and shots and dinner for the girls from the bartender on the street corner. Oh no wait, none of that happened. They spent nothing but a few hours of flirting.

    Although I guess the Dragonball Z costume probably cost some money:

    At 2:50 into this vid:

    I love where he pulled out his wallet and rifled through all the money in it to get that chick to invite him to join her. Oh no wait, that didn’t happen.

    I guess this guy WILL have to pay to have sex with this girl, I mean, it’ll probably cost him at LEAST a dollar in text messages to tell her to come hang out at his place.

    Plus if his time is worth $50/hr, he just blew like $7 there…fuck, that’s steep!! Why not just get a $7 hooker dude!!!1111

    Making a point AND being a dick, who says you can’t do both at the same time? Quit spending money on girls when you don’t have to, spend it on yourself and your hobbies. :P

  • flyfreshandyoung

    Ha kind of skipped the wall of text, man.

    But, great minds think alike.

  • flyfreshandyoung

    Holy shit, dude, you’re a genius.

    You might be the first person on this thread that you don’t have to spend money on girls, or that if you might happen to spend some money while out, it’s not to impress girls.

    Some people’s obsession with not spending a dime on a girl is borderline socially retarded. Have your fun, bring her along for the ride. And god help you if it costs a couple dollars for a shot or something while you’re partying.

  • To pay or not to pay? | Generation Nihilism

    [...] topic was once again touched on over at Rollo’s “Free Lunch“. I’ll bring up one of my comments, because I think this issue is pretty simple: If [...]

  • Antonio Cienfuegos

    This is what I intuitively figured out one day.

    I told a girl we should meet up for lunch at work, which means we’d have to pay with our Id cards. Then when we actually met, I said, “Looks, let’s get something good to eat. Let’s go to a restaurant” She looked at me a bit embarrassed and said, “Well, I didn’t actually bring my wallet… I thought I’d get to pay with my Id card!”

    I knew what to do. I said “Ok. Doesn’t matter. Let’s go”, and got going and then changed subjects. I brought her to the restaurant, we both ordered whatever it was that we wanted to eat, we had a good time, and when the check came, I took it, pulled out my card, and went to pay. I did all of this without blinking an eye, smoothly, and without checking her for approval. I then resumed my conversation with her.

    My image didn’t become tarnished because of any of it. She still went out with me later that week, and she never shifted her attitudes towards me. She remained bubbly and nice and everything. I paid for her lunch, true, but I did it with self-assurance and like it was no big deal.

    *I* felt really good about it afterwards, too.

  • Solo

    Great topic and discussion in the comments

    My last date was with a blond (7.5 on the scale, a “5″ on my reference guide body wise)

    I ended up paying for her two drinks and the total bill came too $33, I never got a 2nd date.

    I got a new rule for 2012. I don’t take chicks out on dates that are below 7′s. I learned my lesson

    http://thesoloist1.wordpress.com/2011/07/22/solos-cpn/
    ^^it’s good to keep track of how much you spend and the outcome sometimes

    peace

  • flyfreshandyoung

    So now you’re pedastalizing chicks who are better looking by taking them out on dates?

    A girl is a girl is a girl. Treat them all the same

  • Solo

    whats the point of taking out a chick who is a 5 on a date?

    The thing isn’t about pedastalizing but simply me raising my standards

  • Linkage is Good for You: January 29th, 2011 Edition

    [...] Theory VI: Abundance & Scarcity“, “Chivalry vs. Altruism“, “Free Lunch“, “The Disposables”Rivelino – “Why the Masculine Accomplishes, While [...]

  • flyfreshandyoung

    Solo whats the point of taking any chick on a date before you’ve banged her? Dating is dead hombre.

    No matter how good looking she is

  • Solo

    My philosophy is always to bring a chick to the house ASAP. Whether she is hot or not but that’s not realistic. If you meet a woman online, or only talked to her for 5 minutes at the bar. It’s gonna be tough to get her to your place right away.Can it be done? of course it can. I’ve done it plenty times but game isn’t black or white. Their still various shades of gray. There are gonna be girls who aren’t gonna be down to hang out at my place. Does that mean every date has to be a dinner date? of course not, a walk in the park constitutes as a date as well as other things i.e. going to a free art museum, open mic etc.

    So my question to you is, if a girl wants to go on a date with you, it disqualifies her because of that? or do you still take a girl out on a date?

    *grabs seat, and opens a can of heinken*

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