Women’s Physical Standards

“Your charming personality and bulletproof Game won’t make you look any better when your shirt comes off.”

This may come as a shock to the “men have impossibly high beauty standards” gnashing of feminist teeth, but it is in fact women who have a much higher standard for an idealized male physique. For all the endless kvetching from women about men wanting “living barbie dolls”, it’s men who’ve historically displayed much broader interests in female body habitus than women ever have.

You see, men will very readily cater their physical sexual “preferences” in accordance with what has proven sexually successful for them in past experiences. In other words, men tend to return to the same watering hole they found to be plentiful in the past. These preferences of convenience manifest themselves as ‘fetishes’ for men. And you don’t even need all that extensive research to prove this.  All one need do is search the vast variety of porn available catering to the physical attributes that men will fetishize. Big boobs, small boobs, big ass, small ass, every hair color of the rainbow, shaved snatch, hairy snatch, teen girls to MILFs and older, tan, pale, ultra-thin to the ubiquitous BBWs (Big Beautiful women). Ladies, name the physical attribute(s), and there’s a fan-group just waiting to bang you. Rule 34 was never more provable than in men’s willingness to fuck damn near any physical demographic of women – just ask the female midgets catering to that fetish of porn.

On the other hand, from a purely physical perspective, it’s women’s idealized masculine form that hasn’t changed in millennia. While there may have been a rubenesque period when men loved the fatties of the 1600′s, no such era ever existed for women’s physical preferences. The classic broad chest, wide shoulders, six-pack abs and squared jaws of greco-roman athleticism are still the idealized male form that has graced EVERY romance novel cover in existence. I’m still waiting for someone to post me a link for a dating site that caters exclusively to women’s fetish of BBMs – average to good looking, fit women specifically looking overweight men. Executive Introductions caters to women seeking affluent, influential men, but women just looking for overweight men, that site doesn’t exist.

Now, with this, don’t think for a moment I’m refuting the prevailing bio-mechanical wisdom that prompts the vast majority of men towards the sexual want of a slender and archetypically sexy woman. That’s hardwired for us, but ladies, stop your bitching about men’s perception of beauty and how unfair it is to be subjectively compared in the physical as a basis for your personal worth. By historical comparison, women’ve got it easy when it comes to physicality. Unless you are an extreme outlier of physical deformity, there’s probably a niche of porn that specifically caters to your body habitus. And in terms of effort, it takes far more sweat and determination for men to build a man’s body into a masculine physical ideal than it will EVER be for women to achieve a form that men wont find sexually appealing to some degree. Try to keep that in mind when you’re complaining about the stress you’re experiencing in contemplating the social implications of getting a boob job or how expensive your next botox injection will be.


52 responses to “Women’s Physical Standards

  • detinennui32

    Men’s attraction filters are much, much wider than women’s. There are any number of women who appear physically attractive to men. And there are any number of female physical attributes that men find attractive.

    But there is only ONE male physical attractiveness paradigm: tall, dark, handsome, V-shaped torso, broad shoulders, muscle definition, six pack abs.

    They say there are women who are “chubby chasers”. I’ve never met one.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    It amazes me that despite the relatively small investment with the potential of HUGE rewards that come with getting in shape that more western women don’t take advantage of this to help improve their SMV.

    The gym I go to is in an affluent urban area. There are probably more women in this area than men. Yet, when I roll in to the gym the ratio of men to women is usually at least 60/40, and the ratio of men who are in shape to women who are in shape is probably more like 70/30.

    This is yet another symptom of the disease that had been plaguing society for the past few decades. Now that women are postponing marriage or eschewing it altogether in favor of careers and fabulous brunches with the girls, women are mislead into believing that their “value” is can now measured by the same yardstick with which we use to measure men. They now believe that as long as they are able to secure sex from a high value male and attention from several lower value males, that this equates to having the ability to actually secure a commitment from a high value male when they finally choose to jump off the cock carousel and settle down.

    A man would have to bust his ass for YEARS to get the kind of sexual market boost that a woman could get in a few months of eating right and hitting the treadmill. Three months of diet and exercise that lead to 15 pounds less bodyfat for a woman would equal 5-10 years of busting ass in school and a job or business that leads to a six figure salary for a man.

    Why do women slack off? Because they can afford to do so given the fact that it is no longer imperative that they find a decent guy and settle down before their market value has tanked. This just serves to show us how screwed up things are today.

  • Fred Woodbridge (@fwoodbridge)

    Wow! I have NEVER thought of this before.

  • Chad Daring

    I’ve been saying this for years. Feminists talk of double standards and as far as I’m concerned in the sexual market place there is no double standard higher then this.

    We hear women shouting “big is beautiful” and “curves are sexy” and “I dont have to be a barbie doll!” Yet we as men are still expected to be Ken.

  • King A

    Couldn’t this be explained by the lower priority women place on physical attributes? You know, why hot young chicks with ugly older powerful dudes is commonplace, whereas the opposite is rare.

    Men are more particular students of the female form than vice versa. It stands to reason they will fixate on certain “fetish” niches. Now add male sexual aggressiveness, the relative unavailability of the “archetypically sexy woman” for the median schmoe, and you get fattie and furry fuckers. Men turn to each other in womanless prisons. We’ll stick dick in a splintery fence post notch if we have to.

    The absence of variation and the preference for the classical male form seems more the result of laziness or disinterest on the part of women, compared to the industrious obsessions of men.

  • ♠A

    I find this post’s accompanying picture and the slogan across it to be offensive and a flimsy exculpation of women’s behavior.

    The image they provide: paunchy, fat rolls and a double chin.

    That’s no more ‘natural’ than anything they decry.

    Agreed, most women do not look like supermodels and never will. But who’s asking them to have perfectly symmetrical features and a photogenic quality bordering on the supernatural?

    I believe men, on the whole, will be at least mildly interested if a woman looks as though she can lift more than an ice-cream scoop.

  • Neecy

    Rollo,

    Men may have more variety in what they find attractive physically in women, but they do hold women to standards they often can’t meet. One of the main and biggest ones is AGE. Women are made to feel worthless once they hit a certain age. A woman cannot control aging. So while men may be lenient in other areas of physical acceptance based on his visual standards, they are still very much focused on making women feel that they are only worthy of male attention while still very young.

    Women do not hold men up to standards they cannot control – like aging. A man can go get a six pack and tight body.

    IOW’s women’s expectations of male physical attractiveness is more realistic and attainable for men than a woman remaining young or looking as young and beautiful as she did in her early years. Plastic surgery with women isn’t booming for nothing. There is a great deal of pressure for the average woman to remain looking youthful – why? For MALE ATTENTION.

  • Neecy

    BTW that picture and caption you have up – that message they send irks me. I think its a horrible messgae for women to believe that slacking off on their weight is and should be accetable. That doll has FAT ROLLS and normal healthy women should not have fat rolls. I did this for too long and not only did it cost me some of my better prime years, but its simply not healthy.

    This idea of “accept me as I come fat rolls and all” is a very bad message. Its indoctrinating a lot of women to be unhealthy and overweight and is setting them up for failure in their love lives in their prime years and health issues in their later years. Its like women today feel if you are not running around screaming about loving the fact you are obese that means you want to be an anorexic. As if there is not a happy healthy normal attractve weight to be at.

    I could kick myself for falling for that message at a time when it hurt my opportuities for finding decent guys. Oh well, at least i finally woke up even if it was later than I needed to.

  • ♠A

    Neecy,

    I do agree that you have a point regarding women and aging. However, this is nothing more than the temporal nature of all things balancing the scales. Women have much great power in their early years and lose it later. I can’t think of one woman that complained about getting too much attention from men she found desirable in my college years (which loosely matches a woman’s peak SMV).

    I disagree with you here:

    “Women do not hold men up to standards they cannot control ”

    Had this been the world it was even 40 years ago, I may have agreed. However, with today’s terrible job market, high unemployment and a serious lack of male guidance in boy’s lives in dealing with the opposite sex, we are very much held to uncontrollable standards.

    I commented on an earlier post here, and was supported, saying that I was a failure with women in my earlier years due to parental and social advice. I cannot control either of those things. What freed me, as Rollo mentioned, was the internet and the means it provided for me to seek and receive answers outside my formerly limited pool.

  • N.

    I would explain the more exacting female standards for male beauty as part of the female drive for hypergamy.

  • Good Luck Chuck

    You need to read the post again Neecy. Rollo’s point wasn’t that women hold men to impossible standards, it is that women hold men to high standards while calling them “shallow” for having standards of their own.

    Of course, being a woman, it is in your nature to either ignore or deny that such double standards exist.

  • Wesley Dabney

    feh.. women also go to the same well they found that works. i’ve seen it. it’s human nature and we both do it. obese women don’t go to their death beds as virgins because they are holding out for mr. 6 pack.

  • gggg

    Sorry, but this post is an epic fail.

    It is practically a platitude that hot girls get with all sorts of guys, short, fat, balding, stout, thin, long hair, short hair, to the point where men saying *what does she see in him?* is proverbial, which would not be the case if hot girls only got with square jawed he-mans.

    And just as romance novels all have one type of guy, mens magazines all have one type of girl, usually blond, curvy, big breasted, and voluptous – duh!

    In reality, lots of girls swoon over shaggy haired hipsters and are left cold at square jawed he-man types, and vice versa.

    And lots of guys like cute artsy girls and completely ignore voluptuous beauties.

    There is also lots of scientific evidence that men like ONE body type, too, across cultures.

    So finally, both sexes have a WIDE range of preferences up to each individual, with perhaps the one constant being that men like women with feminine attributes and women like men with masculine one – but the particular expression of these sex attributes admits of WIDE latitude.

  • johnnymilfquest

    Google “MILF”. Then Google “granny porn”. Then say “I was wrong”.

  • johnnymilfquest

    You mad sis?

    “I’m still waiting for someone to post me a link for a dating site that caters exclusively to women’s fetish of BBMs – average to good looking, fit women specifically looking overweight men. Executive Introductions caters to women seeking affluent, influential men, but women just looking for overweight men, that site doesn’t exist.”

    What part of that quote do you disagree with?

  • detinennui32

    gggg:

    Just because you happen to see a good looking woman with a short, fat, bald guy doesn’t mean she finds him physically attractive. She is probably using him. She is probably an entitlement princess and he meets her “needs”. Or she is a gold digger.

    Women use men for all kinds of reasons. These are just two.

    Come to think of it, he is using her for sex. She is using him for money. I’ve just described about 75% of all contemporary marriages.

  • A Billion Wicked Thoughts «

    [...] expected it appears that yesterday’s Women’s Physical Standards post drew a bit of consternation from both sides of the aisle. Women predictably want to cling to [...]

  • johnnymilfquest

    Ouch.

    I’ve never been married myself, but the feedback I’m getting from married men is not good.

  • Neecy

    @ A,

    I agree but many times what women desire physically in men and what they end up liking in a particular man can vary and be different. Yeah i or many women may fantasize about the hot tall stud with broad shoulders and a six pack and that v shaped thingy that leads down his pelvis area, but the reality is, that is not *all* that makes a man attractive.

    A man can make up for his lack of physical attractiveness aesthetically (or those physical desired traits) by having a really confident masculine demeanor and personality. A man like this CAN compete with a physically attractive stud who may not have masculine qualities other than his physical appearance.

    On the flip side, where can women make up for this? So in essence, women do fantasize about a physical type of men, but what we dream about and what we actually end up liking are two different things. Women prefer men who EXUDSE masculine traits. He doesn’t need a six pack and broad shoulders to do this.

  • Neecy

    GLC and JONNY,

    I understand what Rollo is getting at but it still doesn’t make things easier for women simply b/c there are a variety of men who fetish certain things phsycially/sexually in women. Will the average man marry a MILF or fatty over a slim conventionally attractive woman? Will he make her his wife and allow her to have his children? If all men could have a choice in who they pick as their wives & g/f’s would the choice look very similar? YES. Will he be proud of all these women he fetishes over the girl who all men would typically across the board find attractive? NO. So in essence women don’t really make out unless its for fulfilling some mans sexual fetish.

    I do buy into the idea that men do like variety – and they usually do. But men are also very conscious about receiving accolades from society and other men in general and usually will go for the trophy chick. In many cases a man will even ignore his raw sexual desire for say a woman with lots of curves and go for the modelesque woman b/c he would receive more positive reinforcement from outsiders for having the young model looking woman on his arm – EVEN if she doesn’t arouse him like a thicker or somewhat curvier woman. Men are very much into having the attractive girl that everyone agrees is a hottie. And given the option and choice this is what most men would pick.

    Women know this deep down despite some of the off preferences of some men when it comes to porn or sexual fetishes.

  • gggg

    Perhaps, but just because you see guys with all kinds of fetishes does not mean the guys finds these girls the most attractive, they just are the sorts of girls who those guys can get.

    Thing is, I personally know girls who like, say, the Johnny Depp type and others who see nothing in Johnny Depp and love the BRad Pitt athletic type. I know girls who like the emo hipster type and despise muscular square jawed types, and vice versa.

    Go to the hipster bars of NYC and you will see seriously hot chics lining up for artsy men types.

    Its just completely and totally false that girls have *one type* – almost laughably false – and the same extremely flimsy evidence used to support that claim can even more easily be used to support the – equally wrong – idea that men have only one type.

    Thats why both portions of this post are just pretty wrong.

  • Sangfroid

    In many cases a man will even ignore his raw sexual desire for say a woman with lots of curves and go for the modelesque woman b/c he would receive more positive reinforcement from outsiders for having the young model looking woman on his arm – EVEN if she doesn’t arouse him like a thicker or somewhat curvier woman

    This is true, and it’s not surprising that a black woman such as yourself understands this, while the vast majority of white women don’t. The majority of white men — who, research shows, like a woman neither particulary thick NOR thin — also don’t believe it. They assume that the white guy with the girl who is thick in the butt, thighs, and hips has merely settled for her, as do white women.

    White women also compete against each other in pursuit of thinness, whereas black women and Mestizas do not…but that’s an off-topic phenomenon.

    On the other hand, it is much rarer for a guy to prefer a woman with a well-padded belly, as this is the unhealthy kind of fat despositing whereas the aforementioned pattern is healthy. Google “fat butts may be healthy” and “does more butt and thigh fat make you healthier” for more on research pointing in this direction.

    Will the average man marry a MILF or fatty over a slim conventionally attractive woman?

    Majority-preferred is more descriptive than “conventionally,” which is part of Rollo’s argument.

  • Neecy

    Sangfroid,

    YES! But its not just WHite women and WHite men whom assume this. All races of women and men assume that WHite men love and prefer thinness and that Black men prefer thickness. i believe this to be true ON AVERAGE but the general idea and reality is men do like a variety. I would even admit that I believe White men are more into thinness and possibly why many WHite women do strive to attain such on average.

    And you are right. Men like curves and fat in the RIGHT PLACES – not in areas that signify inflammation and unhealthiness.

    BTW I am now more clear as to what Rollo was getting at in his post…

  • HR Lincoln

    Neecy-
    “Men may have more variety in what they find attractive physically in women, but they do hold women to standards they often can’t meet. One of the main and biggest ones is AGE. Women are made to feel worthless once they hit a certain age. A woman cannot control aging. So while men may be lenient in other areas of physical acceptance based on his visual standards, they are still very much focused on making women feel that they are only worthy of male attention while still very young.

    Women do not hold men up to standards they cannot control.”

    Wrongo. Ever consider the attribute of height? Fat women can lose weight, but a short man can be an adonis and remain sexually invisible to women.

  • Cat Patrol

    This makes me want to change my workout program.
    Instead of bulking up to gain muscle mass, I think I should be doing more aerobic type exercise in order to get lean and chiseled. I have big shoulders whether I work out or not, maybe I should go for that small waist.

  • Laconophile

    Don’t stop lifting weights, don’t do long duration aerobics either. It is a good idea to get lean, as leanness promotes T which will help you build muscle later. But you don’t want to end up skinny.

    Keep lifting and building/sparing muscle in the gym, and lose fat in the kitchen. Google Leangains.

  • Emma the Emo

    But if they are fetishes.. then why would a man fantasise/have a fetish for women he’s only slightly attracted to, rather than what he is very attracted to? Why watch porn that features women you aren’t too keen on?

    As for the other part of your comment, I think there are several types girls like. Still strange though, that there is no fat man porn, because many women do like fat men. I was so disappointed when I found none.

  • driftwood

    The big problem for men isn’t even the women have a difficult to attain body standard for men. It’s that women don’t even like men aesthetics very much at all to begin with.

  • Free Lunch «

    [...] similar to how you look physically is part of you. It’s a comfortable fiction to think that women are less interested in a man’s physique, or should be attracted to a guy unbiased by what he does – but these are all part of a whole. [...]

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  • Moral to the Manosphere «

    [...] – I catch as much or more vitriol from the manosphere when I post something like Looks Count or Women’s Physical Standards and the importance women actually do place on a man’s [...]

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  • HB10 «

    [...] is offensive, but we are far more forgiving in our arousal cues that women will ever be in their own physical standards. HB’s & SE’s Since so much has been made of HB scales and ratings I don’t [...]

  • De-lurking

    First time commenting here, and I’m obviously very late to the party. I think this post unintentionally debunks the Roissyian claim that today’s ideal of feminine beauty is immutable and has been consistent across time and culture. Roissy claims that a woman is practically worthless once her BMI creeps above 20, and much of the Manosphere would have you believe that it’s the Mighty God Evolution that dictates this—not the standards imposed by our technologically driven, hyper-visual culture, coupled with a yearning toward the extreme opposite of our collectively obese state. (The fatter we get, the thinner our ideal gets.)

    It’s true that real obesity never conferred a genetic advantage, but male standards were not always as strict as they are now. Many reproductive endocrinologists will tell you that your chances of conceiving are actually better if you’re a few pounds overweight, and I think men in the past recognized this at some level. Perhaps some still do, but despite this post, even a glancing acquaintance with the Manosphere will show you that things have changed.

    In contrast, the masculine ideal—strong, broad-shouldered, tall, etc.—which telegraphs the ability both to breed and protect, appears to have remained less subject to the whims of culture. So if you accept Rollo’s contentions here, maybe it’s actually women who are truer to their prehistoric roots.

  • Wilson

    Women with a “few pounds” of fat are indeed usually more attractive and fertile, but “a few pounds” means a few pounds, not sixty. Men’s standards have certainly not become more strict. Roissy is just emphasizing that men should have some standards, which is what has become an alien concept in our diseased and debased culture. The standard hasn’t changed, it’s just that men take what they can get, even though it means going against their nature and being disgusted with themselves. Hypergamy, on the other hand, is more stable because it doesn’t care.

  • Women Studies «

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  • André

    Six months of smart training and nutritional intervention can completely transform a man’s body. The physique is attainable, perhaps not the model cover body, but a downsized version of that. The tools are available it’s just that most people in the gym are not really doing it right.

  • Sugar

    Actually some women DO have fetishes for the unconventional.

    For example, I know several hot women who are SPECIFICALLY attracted to bald men, and I know some hot women who are SPECIFICALLY attracted to big bearish, fat looking men, a.k.a. “teddy bears.” Not the muscular lean guys, big bouncer looking guys.

    That said, I mainly agree with every fiber of this article. The guy who looks like a romance-novel cover model will not need to learn much about pickup. He’ll only need develop a mindset of abundance, non-neediness, and persistence, and he will be riding high.

  • The Crime of Being Nice « M3

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  • Boy Toy

    Mainstream companies and mainstream media has a long time ago adapted to our hopeless fat zombie world – the money is where the majority is, right… What a horrible ad. Dont support fat people – tell them the truth: You are fat, you need to lose weight, NOW. Throw that cake away darling…

  • Andre

    “Couldn’t this be explained by the lower priority women place on physical attributes? You know, why hot young chicks with ugly older powerful dudes is commonplace, whereas the opposite is rare.”

    Because there are almost no older powerful women. Women can be the the sugar momma and increase their relationship value, if they bother with it. They need to stop bitching about the fact that once they turn 30 they start being treated more like men, and if they are losers, they will be treated as losers (even though not quite as badly as the male ones).

    “Men turn to each other in womanless prisons.”

    Psychopaths turn on lower level criminals in prisons. This applies to both male and female prisons.

    “We’ll stick dick in a splintery fence post notch if we have to.”

    No…

    “The absence of variation and the preference for the classical male form seems more the result of laziness or disinterest on the part of women, compared to the industrious obsessions of men.”

    I don’t know about that.

  • Andre

    “Women are made to feel worthless once they hit a certain age.”

    That is because they have been made to feel like a billion bucks before it. What women feel when they hit the wall is what men feel their entire lives.

    “Women do not hold men up to standards they cannot control – like aging. A man can go get a six pack and tight body.”

    Yes, they do. Ever heard of height?

  • Andre

    “Many reproductive endocrinologists will tell you that your chances of conceiving are actually better if you’re a few pounds overweight, and I think men in the past recognized this at some level.”

    Or maybe they didn’t, and the reason they get pregnant more easily is precisely because they have to in order to compensate for less sex.

  • Andre

    “Women do not hold men up to standards they cannot control – like aging. A man can go get a six pack and tight body.”

    Seriously, this is an insane comment. Women hold men up to aging standards. A man doesn’t automatically become attractive as he goes from 20 to 35, that increase in his value is a reflection of his increased social-status. I’m pretty sure a 60 year old loser woman will find it easier to get laid than a 60 year old loser man.

  • Trigorah Liadon

    There are unrealistic standards on both sides. I am generally considered attractive; long dark hair, hourglass figure, long legs, not exactly a Victoria’s Secret model, but fairly fit and tanned from cycling. I tend to go for nerdy guys who share my obsession with DnD, comics, books, and League. They come in all shapes and sizes, and I consider my current interest to be out of my league since he is by far more intelligent than I am. He is built like a scarecrow, tall, scrawny, if I am honest with myself, buzz cut, pale from sitting in front of his computer coding all day,and his general style is the token tennis shoes with pressed high water pants, and the same hooded sweater every day. He is brilliant, and creative, and witty…I could just go on. I have an IQ of 153, and am fairly good looking, but I am scared to approach him beyond playing DnD and Magic, because to me, he is just that incredible. And he is a pretty epic DM, and I wouldn’t want to ruin the vibe during the DnD sessions. So I guess it just depends what you are into, haha.

  • Kimberly

    Perhaps media and other visual outlets have portrayed the supposed ideal female appearance way WAY too much. With typical slender bodies, symmetrical faces, perky breasts, and perhaps a little height with long hair being the norm…my god that can get boring. I see that ideal everday, and as a woman who is proud of her body, I’m quite glad I don’t fit in with that stereotype. Now I can’t really speak from a man’s perspective, but because I am open-minded I would be inclined to search for other options regarding the female and her body as visual stimuli.

  • The Myth of the ‘Good’ Guy |

    […] The confusion that most Beta men make is presuming that what women list as being necessarily ‘attractive’ IS what makes him ‘arousing’. So when he models himself (often over the course of a lifetime) to personally identify with this checklist of attractive prerequisites he’s often frustrated and angered when all of that personal development makes for little difference when a woman opts to regularly fuck men of a better physical standard. […]

  • John D

    I think this article makes several good points. But, I have to play devil’s advocate here. I see several people using PUA terminology.

    Isn’t the whole PUA theory based on the concept that women will set aside their physical list for a smooth charming slick willy?

    While there is greater range of men’s desires in types of female bodies, in my opinion women are more quick to set aside their preferences.

    It just doesn’t work for men the same way as for women. (Virtually) no amount of kindness/loyalty/humor = boner for men, if the looks of the women didn’t give him one to begin with.

    But, it certainly does seem to apply to women that smooth charming slick willy = wet pussy even if the guy is a short troll.

    So, women don’t have the option of setting aside men’s physical preference with charm, confidence and humor the way a man does when approaching a woman.

  • John D

    I read the first few paragraphs of the first link. Your arguments are very well laid out and either evidence based or reasoning based.

    I’ve tripped over citizen renegade’s page here and there and mostly find it informative, but off the cuff I would say your writing seems a little more professional.

    I also don’t see the hordes of (possible) future Elliot Rodger virgins in mama’s basement who seem to have a mad-on against women posting in your comments either.

    Not that I give a shit about women’s feelings, but that shit gets old fast.

    I will keep your page on my list of pages to check in on.

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